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Why Smart Women Make Worse Choices Under Stress · Work Stress Anxiety | Burnout Prevention & Work Anxiety Help

• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to work stress anxiety.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Cheryl Paris.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever known exactly what you should be doing and then wondered seemingly despairingly why on earth you didn't do it?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in this episode, Paula and I explore what may be happening underneath that experience.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we talk about stress, autopilot, familiar habits, the pressure of keeping, pushing through, while your brain under pressure may reach for what is quickest and most familiar rather than what matters the most.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if this sounds uncomfortably familiar, follow the podcast at follow the podcast.com forward slash work stressanxiety so that you don't miss what's coming next.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let's get started.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Worst Stress Anxiety.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Cheryl Parris, your host.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: If it's your first time with us, welcome.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not, welcome back.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: I have an amazing guest with me today.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Haula, how are you doing?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm doing fabulous.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me here, Cheryl.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Looking forward to our conversation.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being here.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've probably noticed this yourself, and I think one of the things that us high flyers and high-achieving women, we assume that when we make bad decisions under stress, it's because maybe we're not being disciplined enough or we're feeling weak in the moment.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just curious to know what do you think is actually happening underneath that pool up?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that is such a good question and such a great conversation to have because I think this is at the crux of why we beat ourselves up when we're under stress and we're not achieving what we're striving for.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, we assume that we make a lot of our decisions consciously.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: We assume that we're being proactive.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And what research shows, and this is research in behavioral economics and neuroscience, that we make our decisions up to 95% of the time reactively.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: It means your brain is making that decision for you.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're not making it consciously.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: A couple of things are happening when we're under stress.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: When we're under stress, parts of our brain activate and parts of our brain shut down.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: What's really interesting is the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that is responsible for conscious choice, for emotion regulation, for planning, strategy, all of that, our executive center of our brain under stress, it shuts down.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: And our amygdala and our basal ganglia, the parts of our brain that are responsible for our fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, that's the amygdala, and the basal ganglia responsible for our habits, our patterns and behaviors, those activate.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why do they do that?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because stress is stressful, and our brain is designed to A, keep us alive, B, help us survive whatever we're facing.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: And our brain does not know the difference evolutionarily between a saber-toothed tiger and someone who has a different opinion.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't know the difference between a saber-toothed tiger and the phone ringing and interrupting the project you're working on.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't know the difference between a saber-toothed tiger and this opportunity that your boss just gave you, you know, quote unquote opportunity that is really just another thing that you now have to add to your to-do list.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: So when we're triggered, our brain does exactly what it's designed to do.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: What we do is we think we're making that choice because we're aware, we're still conscious, we're fully aware of what's going on.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's in our heads.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we think we made that choice.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: When in fact, our brain made that choice for us, and our brain is making our choices based on not what matters most in the moment, but what worked before, what helped us survive a similar situation, and what's fastest.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's what our brain is gauging on.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So unless we know how to take back those controls and reprogram it, if it's choosing things that aren't working for us, then we will constantly have those same patterns, habits, and default decisions replay and replay.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we then judge ourselves, oh my gosh, I don't have enough willpower, or oh my gosh, why couldn't I do that?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it feels like it's happening to us and it feels like an internal struggle.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because it is.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting you say that, you know, because I'm laughing because I used to be like that.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: I used to think to myself, what is wrong with you, Terrell?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Why haven't you got enough internal strength to want to do this?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what to do.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Why aren't you doing it?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not difficult.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So why is there so much resistance?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's I think in my experience, it may be similar to you, a lot of the stress that we have, even though it's yes, it starts in our brain, we experience it through our b in our body.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I love to do with my clients is I love to get them feeling good.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I always encourage them to do stuff that makes them feel good.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And when I mean good, I mean like one of the things I love doing is salsa dancing.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: My partner will not take me salsa dancing, but I just go anyway.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I love dancing generally anyway.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love listening to music, whether it's classical music or dance music or more contemporary stuff.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: I love it all.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think there is a way that we can encourage people?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, maybe I'm going off track here, but what I have in my mind is how we can connect that decision-making part of our brain, the one that kind of, like you say, shuts down when we're feeling stressed, to more useful states that we can create in our life, so that when we get into those moments where we're feeling stressed, we know what we need to do with our bodies to help reconnect those decision-making centers.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that makes sense.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it does.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: So when our brain is taking over and doing the thing that consciously we would not choose because it's been a habit that we've developed over time, or we believe that we're supposed to function that way, or it's what we did last time, we faced a similar situation and we survived it, right?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do we activate the conscious part of our brain, the executive center, right?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's responsible for conscious choice.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Anything physical that you can do, taking a deep breath, going dancing, going for a walk, anything that can get you to wake up your body can trigger the conscious part of your brain, that executive center prefrontal cortex.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: I call that your pilot.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: I call the unconscious parts that take over, the amygdala and basal ganglia, I call that your autopilot.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: So think of like you're flying a plane.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're either flying it consciously or you've pre-programmed it to fly, and then you're just monitoring it.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So what interrupts that autopilot is when we do something different.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: If we take a deep breath, if we go dancing, if we go for a walk, if we exercise, if we go blow bubbles, if we go fishing, you know, whatever it is that we do, that interrupts that autopilot.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And now your conscious brain wakes up and you can start looking, you start to see things differently.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it feels better because it alleviates some of the stress.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what one of the reasons why sometimes I will spend a whole session just talking about states and how to get move because I think that's one of the things that stress does to you.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of makes you think, oh no, I'm rubbish, I just can't do that.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm interested in moving you back to where your body feels good and where you're able to move forward in a positive and constructive way.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you know for a fact that high achievers believe in success and being responsible and being needed.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you think makes it so difficult for all us high achievers out there to just press the pause button?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: We are so focused on what we're doing and what we haven't achieved yet that it doesn't occur to us to press the pause button.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, because we don't have time.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know about you, but any high achiever I talk to, they always think they don't have enough time.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And second of all, there's this urgency in us to just push through because that's what we've been conditioned to do.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Our society teaches us to put our nose to the grindstone, to work harder, work stronger, right?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hard work and long hours are gonna pay off in the long run.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, a lot of times it may pay off, but by the time we get there, we aren't physically able to enjoy what we've achieved.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's just we're not taught or encouraged to just take a moment, to just put a pause, put a pin in something.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And heaven forbid we take a break.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's just it's not what and I still have this feeling like if I don't work weekends, okay?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: So Saturdays and Sundays, with rare exception, if it's something that I really, really, really want to do and it's important this one time, I might, right?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: But for the most part, I don't work weekends.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: I can't tell you how hard it was for me not to look at emails, not to answer phone calls, not to just just do this one thing, right?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're so trained and conditioned.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I talk about that autopilot part of our brain that works on habits and repeated patterns and default behaviors, your brain is going to win that every single time unless you interrupt it.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just something I don't think we're taught or encouraged to take pauses.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you're absolutely right.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think often, especially in the work environment, when people say, I remember I laugh about it now because I think for me it's just so funny.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I was having a really, really busy day, just lots, you know, lots of demands.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And someone came up to me and said, Cheryl, you know, they sort of went like that, and I just went, This is not a good time.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Good for you.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the look on their face when I said that.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing is, even I was shocked that I said that, you know.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I was just being completely honest in the moment.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: This, you know, this is not a good moment.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I knew within myself that I was reaching that point where I was gonna start being I was gonna lose it.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was either gonna shout at someone or do you know what I mean?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Be maybe be inappropriate in what I said.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't want that because I like to be professional in everything that I do.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I know that for a lot of people, that sort of behaviour, dare I say it, is even now when we have all this well-being stuff, this is one of the reasons why I'm not into well-being in the sense of hearts and flowers and you know, having a nice this and do you know what I mean?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: All that to me is fluff.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the reasons why, you know, in especially in the podcast, it's just not happening.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I know some people may think to themselves, well, who does she think she is saying all that?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not disrespecting anybody anywhere when I say that.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that I've been through it.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know what it's like when you sit on the couch, you don't even want to brush your teeth.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I think back and I think that those sort of decisions were really hard for me when I completely blow my just something as simple as brushing your teeth.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even feel motivated to do that.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want anyone, anyone to experience what I experienced.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I didn't have my daughter, who at the time was about five, six year old, saying to me, Mummy, why is this like this?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, at that age, they're so still so curious about the world.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: If I didn't have her pulling me back to reality, I don't know what would have happened to me.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I know that stress in and of itself is about choices.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's about how it's trying to speak to us through our choices, whether that's being better at things, control, safety, approval, avoidance, you know, survival, like we've just talked about.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think, Paula, is one of the best ways?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe maybe it's not because I don't believe there's always one, there's always a best way.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: There are several different ways to do things, but what do you think that is pulling us towards that stress?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And what could we do to still achieve what we want to achieve, but in a way that is much more constructive?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say are maybe, I don't know, your top maybe five things that people could have in their minds rather than I think control, yes, is one thing and safety is another thing, and approval is something else.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: But to me, those are things that are pulling us away from who we want to be.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm interested in things that are moving us towards the kind of people we want to be.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you hit on a couple of things, Cheryl.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Wellness from the perspective of, you know, we get stress management training, right?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Take some bubble baths and have healthy boundaries and light some candles, and all of that is lovely.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And for a brief moment, it can be pleasant.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And even in some situations, maybe even reduce some stress for that few seconds you're doing that, right?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: But let's be real.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: We can only take so many bubble baths.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: We can only light so many candles, right?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And what it's doing is it's like the band-aid, it's just treating the symptoms, it's not solving the problem.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem, and you mentioned this so clearly, the choices we make contribute and can cause the burnout we're experiencing.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And what we don't recognize is what most of us don't know.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know this before I ended up having corporate burnout.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know that up to 95% of our choices are not conscious.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: They're made unconsciously by our brain acting for us on autopilot.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what it's designed to do.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because quite frankly, we'd never get out of the house in the morning if we had to make every choice and every decision consciously.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: We'd have to learn how to walk across a room every day.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: We'd have to learn how to get dressed, how to brush, right?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's just not feasible.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do we move toward?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: I share in my book and with my executive clients that I coach, I have a four-step process.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I mentioned in our other conversation about taking a pause, taking a deep breath.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first step.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's where we assess am I being reactive or am I being proactive?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Simple question to ask yourself.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you can ask yourself that in any situation.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Up to 95% of the time, we're going to be reactive.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: So then the next question is not to judge that, because it's not wrong to be reactive.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's only wrong if your reaction doesn't get you where you want to go, right?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: So then the next question is to evaluate is my response appropriate for the situation?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And will it bring me closer to my goal or what I want to happen in this situation?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: If the answer is yes, you are great.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Your reaction is on point.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Keep going.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a no, and most of the time it's going to be a no, then we need to make a different choice.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in the moment, that can be hard to do.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe this practice starts with looking back at the end of the day when you're not emotionally triggered, right?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: But then because we've taken a pause, we've now woken up the executive center of our brain where we make conscious choices.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now we can see more than the thing that's triggering us and we can make a different choice.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: What other options are there?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: What information am I not paying attention to?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm so focused on the thing that's triggering me.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Once we make that different choice, the fourth step is to simply act on that choice, take that action.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: It does a couple of things.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, it shifts the dynamic of the situation, it gets us closer to what we're wanting, and it reprograms our autopilot because the more we repeat that, the more we reprogram, and then we start developing new reactive choices.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now, before we go, I'm just interested.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I remember years ago, I thought about training to be a social worker.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Big mistake.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: That was.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: I have a high admiration for social workers.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's who I am.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: So please don't take that the wrong way.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: It was hard.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was really hard.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: I found it really hard.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember my trainer at the end of the first year when I decided, yeah, that wasn't for me, but I still did that first year.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: She did this really cool thing of every person in the class, she wrote a like a little note.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: It was just one word of what word she associated with them.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And she put it in the little note in a tiny envelope.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was beautiful, you know, with this beautiful pebble.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And mine was assertive.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell you, it was really weird.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Just seeing that note, I've still got it some, you know, it's probably, you know, in one of my drawers somewhere with the envelope, made me feel I can't tell you.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: It I just glowed for the rest of the day.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I always think back to that one thing, you know, that made me feel in the moment and for years afterwards, empowered.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And Paula, if there was one word that you could describe yourself with, what would that be?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a good one.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would have to say optimistic.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: And not optimistic in the, oh, everything's gonna be wonderful, optimistic, but I believe that there's always if something comes across our path, there's value there to be learned from it.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: We become different people moving forward.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's always a way forward.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of optimism.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's always something next.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And if there was one word that you would say to work stress anxiety listeners who are listening in, who have perhaps been very, very naughty and, you know, started heading in that direction of burnout, there was one word that you would say to them, what would that be, Paulo?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's an easier question.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Forgiveness.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Stop beating yourself up.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: You are doing the absolute best that you can with what you've got available to you in this moment.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Your brain is making the best decision it can in this moment.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that you don't have the motivation or the willpower.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not even about that.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's about understanding how you're making choices, what's driving your decisions.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: I want to thank you, Paula, for joining me on that beautiful word of forgiveness.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: I loved our conversation.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there was one word Paula chose for listeners towards the end of the conversation: forgiveness.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that matters because high-achieving women can become remarkably skilled at turning every difficult reaction into evidence that they should somehow be trying harder.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for me, understanding stress gives us another opportunity.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Curiosity before criticism.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to thank you, Paula, for this conversation.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: All her relevant links and resources are in the show notes.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now, follow WorkStress Anxiety at follow the podcast.com forward slash Workspress Anxiety.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Share this episode with someone who you think may need to hear it.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And leave a review if you can at lovethepodcast.com forward slash Workspress Anxiety.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: The thing is, your review may be what helps another quietly overwhelmed listener find us.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Bye for now.