Latest / Content, Briefly / MessageDesk: Kyle Kuczynski on ruthless prioritization and outsized results

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MessageDesk: Kyle Kuczynski on ruthless prioritization and outsized results · Content, Briefly

• 0:00
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• 0:53
  [upbeat music] I knew from the beginning that this would have to be, like, a long, bloody, all-out war, and I would have to totalize and eventually capture, like, all of the business texting SMS space for, like, all verticals, all use cases, everything.
• 1:09
  And I feel like I'm pretty close to it actually right now, which is really cool. [upbeat music] Hey, everyone, and thanks for tuning in to another episode of Content Briefly. For this episode, I spoke with Kyle Kucinski.
• 1:20
  He's the CMO and co-founder of a SaaS tool called Message Desk, which is a two-way SMS product.
• 1:27
  Really interesting in that he is marketing to folks who are primarily in the field, primarily not sitting at a computer all day.
• 1:33
  He's also a marketing team of one trying to tackle literally thousands and thousands of potential use cases.
• 1:39
  So I think that probably helps you get an understanding of what this conversation is like and some of the challenges that he's facing. Just a quick reminder to check out our new and improved Slack group.
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  We started charging for it recently. It's twenty bucks a month. There's a discount, of course, if you wanna sign up annually. I would highly recommend that you get your employer to reimburse you.
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• 2:07
  We're talking about budgeting. We're talking about career development.
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  People are airing some grievances sometimes about things they're facing either in their day-to-day work, challenges with their manager, even the state of content marketing. So there's a ton of really good stuff there.
• 2:19
  Would love for you to check it out. We would love to have you join us. You can learn more at superpath.co/community. [upbeat music] Hey, everybody. Jimmy from Superpath here today with another episode of Content Briefly.
• 2:32
  Excited to be chatting with my friend Kyle Kucinski, co-founder and CMO at Message Desk. Kyle, would love if you could introduce yourself.
• 2:38
  Also, just a quick note, you're our first founder and first CMO we've had on this podcast, so I'm excited to...
• 2:44
  Sort of a different set of questions I have regarding that, but maybe just tell us a little bit about yourself and, and Message Desk and some of the things you've been up to over the last couple years.
• 2:51
  Well, man, thank you so much for having me. This is a really cool opportunity for me. Co-founder and CMO, yes. CMO, I guess I use that title a little bit more lightly.
• 2:59
  Message Desk is a business texting software, so we help businesses and organizations get the right messages to the right people at the right time, and we do that by helping businesses and organizations text-enable their phone lines, get spun up in a shared team inbox, and then send mass text broadcasts.
• 3:15
  So the use case here, an example would be, like, your housekeeper, they need to text you, and they say, "Hey, we're running late today. We gotta bump you on the schedule," or, "Hey, service is great.
• 3:23
  We left the key under the mat," that kind of stuff.
• 3:25
  Or a landscaper who's got trees to deliver or a nurse staffing agency who needs to get caregivers to the right place or, um, a dispatch kind of a use case with, like, truck drivers in the field.
• 3:36
  So we help all those people get connected with each other and text each other in the same shared space. Got it. That's cool. And it's two-way, which I feel like is important to call out. Yeah.
• 3:44
  It's not just, you know, we're running a sale, use this code to get fifteen percent off type thing. Yeah. That's a good distinction you call out there.
• 3:50
  You know, the, uh, old kind of style text messaging that you're used to is what's called short codes. They're like five, six-digit phone numbers. Yeah. It was actually popularized by American Idol back in the day.
• 3:58
  They did the first text to vote campaign, but we do fully conversational text messaging, so it looks like you're just texting with your local business using their local phone number, and it's all just back and forth.
• 4:08
  Super, super personal, very friendly. Okay. That's cool.
• 4:11
  So then on the customer side, they're looking at an inbox that looks sort of like an email inbox, but they're getting texts either from employees in the field, from customers or whatever, so that they can sort of keep track of it all in one place.
• 4:22
  Totally. Yeah. Email's a good analogy. You know, we like to think of ourselves as like, you know, when we say a mass text, it's like BCC, but for texting, right?
• 4:29
  So you can send out a big mass text to an audience of hundreds or thousands of people, and then if they choose to respond to that text message and carry on a conversation, each of those conversations starts a separate text message thread inside the inbox.
• 4:42
  So it's a great way for teams to really manage all of their text conversations collaboratively. And it has use, right?
• 4:47
  Because you think, well, there are certain people who maybe don't use Slack or don't use an internal kind of communications channel.
• 4:52
  Maybe they're, you know, again, think of your truck driver, your housekeeper who's out in the field. It's a different kind of communication scenario, and that's where text messaging is really, really universal. Okay.
• 5:02
  I have a bunch of questions regarding that, which I wanna get into, but I, I wanted to touch on something you said a minute ago, which was you're co-founder and CMO, and I think you said you sort of treat the CMO title a little loosely.
• 5:12
  Is that because as co-founder your job encompasses, I would imagine, a lot of other things besides marketing? Yeah. No, totally. I mean, you know, we're a small team here at Message Desk.
• 5:20
  For reference, we just closed our seed round of funding, which is really cool, like the ink literally just dried a couple weeks ago on that, so we're really stoked. Awesome.
• 5:26
  We brought in some great investment partners with this round.
• 5:29
  We've been going at it for about five years, and we're only a team of eleven right now, so I myself have to wear a whole bunch of different hats in terms of recruitment, coordination of PR.
• 5:38
  We've got all sorts of news that's gonna be coming out about this round, so I'm helping with that on top of all of the management of go-to-market with our content strategy, and I'm a, a one-person marketing agency here.
• 5:48
  Yeah. Internal marketing agency.I manage all of the content, and I'm responsible for all of our leads every single month, which is pretty crazy.
• 5:55
  When you think of marketing at MessageDesk, obviously content marketing is a big part of that, and we'll unpack all of that.
• 6:00
  Are there other things that stack up as equally or more important than content marketing for you right now? Yeah.
• 6:06
  You know, for me, when we started MessageDesk, I knew that content was going to be a great acquisition channel for us particularly and for our customers. We talk a lot to small to medium-sized businesses.
• 6:16
  We also have some enterprise and kind of mid-market plays going on as well. We s- we can service those customers, but we really got our start with the SMB side of things.
• 6:24
  Our CEO, actually, his family's, um, been in the small business industry for a long time, and that was really where we kinda got our start, building for those solutions first. But content was really the first...
• 6:33
  SEO is the distribution channel, and content is the marketing channel.
• 6:36
  But I'm also interested now with the changes in search, and especially around AI, branching into other opportunities, other acquisition channels as well. Yeah. The content space is changing.
• 6:45
  It's changing so much, and I, I would be curious too, as you think about content for a business that is...
• 6:50
  it sounds like trying to reach people who don't sit at a computer all day long, and I would imagine that brings with it some challenges.
• 6:56
  Like if you're a B2B SaaS company marketing to other B2B SaaS folks, they're all at a computer all day. Yeah. Maybe spending time on LinkedIn and Twitter. They're in Slack groups.
• 7:05
  It's easier to imagine them, like, discovering content that way. Are there some challenges with reaching folks who don't spend all day looking at a computer screen? Oh, totally.
• 7:13
  It's, it's been a big learning curve for me particularly.
• 7:16
  You know, you talk about kind of the traditional, like, SaaS content marketing flow and, you know, you can read online if you're trying to up-level your skills, right?
• 7:22
  Everything's gonna be very pegged to, well, you know, this is like an enterprise level sale that's occurring.
• 7:27
  And for us, we've really had to understand and unpack, okay, well, what does content look like in an SMB scenario where you have people who are browsing really quickly, they need fast solutions to problems, they're not really gonna go through a sales conversation to evaluate and take the typical kind of sales lead process, and that's where PLG has been really, really big for us.
• 7:45
  Mm. It's kind of funny too. There was a report I saw from OpenView Partners the other day where they're talking about how if you're servicing small to medium-sized businesses, PLG has really become, like, table stakes.
• 7:55
  It's the absolute requirement now, where you're creating this very clean, crisp flow from, you know, your website, your content, whatever it might be, your marketing channel, directly into your product and making that flow just absolutely seamless.
• 8:07
  For us, that's really been the challenge. It's like, okay, take a typical blog post. Go try and rank for this phrase. Understand, like, what the SERP space is doing.
• 8:15
  But then insert the product into it and make sure that that's front and center, but don't do it in a pushy way.
• 8:19
  You know, there's a lot of nuance that's gone into that, and I think I've gotten closer at cracking the code for us specifically, but it's a different kind of pathway, right?
• 8:26
  So people typically land on our blog post, and they instantly convert to a trial. That's one of the most popular conversion pathways. That's fantastic. Yeah. No, it's...
• 8:34
  and it took us a while to understand, like, wait a minute. That's, [laughs] that's the flow we gotta be optimizing for, and then let the product actually do the conversion.
• 8:40
  And so a lot of the messaging that's for consideration that's further down funnel, that really I kinda hand off to my customer success team, and they do all that messaging internally in the application via Intercom or just the actual formatting of the product.
• 8:54
  That's super interesting. Okay, so I think most people know what PLG is, but for folks who aren't kind of, like, deep into this stuff, PLG stands for product-led growth.
• 9:02
  OpenView actually I think was, they were the folks that kind of coined this term and kind of established some of the philosophy around it, which is definitely worth reading because it's had a pretty significant impact on content marketing strategies over the past couple of years.
• 9:14
  Oh, yeah.
• 9:14
  And some of what I see is kinda what you mentioned is kinda content marketing making this, not dramatic, but a slight shift towards product marketing, where rather than having, like, content in the middle and calls to action surrounding it and hoping people notice, it's more like you as best you can seamlessly integrate the topic with the way a product could help solve it, which is really kind of a wonderful thing.
• 9:35
  I feel like it's easier when a reader is searching for a solution to just explain the solution versus kind of beating around the bush and then surrounding your content with pop-ups and stuff to try to move them along.
• 9:44
  Totally. It's funny that you bring that up.
• 9:46
  To back up a little bit further too, you know, we really as a company learned about PLG, and, like, that really became mainstream and front of mind for us at SaaStr two years ago.
• 9:54
  We walked away from that, and we were like, "Oh, geez. Okay. Wait a minute. This is the new hotness. This is what people are talking about." And it made a lot of sense, particularly for our product.
• 10:01
  I can see in cases where PLG doesn't make sense for, for some motions. It depends what your product is, what your market is, all that kind of good stuff.
• 10:08
  But to go back to kinda, you know, you're talking about the very typical kind of, like, stereotypical content marketing flow. My background is kind of non-traditional in terms of h- how I found content marketing.
• 10:17
  So I came up with the whole, like, HubSpot Academy, where here you go. Here's the funnel.
• 10:21
  It's a very direct convert from low-level awareness using content pieces and gated content and all of that, and it's kind of this complex flow, to actually, wait a minute, you don't need any of that.
• 10:31
  [laughs] You know, it's all about the product now, and really, it's a better solution I think for the user, the end user at the end.
• 10:35
  They get a better experience and a better, hopefully if your product is good enough, solution to their problems. You know, as opposed to going through all of this gated nonsense. I think that's really going away though.
• 10:45
  Yeah, totally.
• 10:46
  I mean, what better thing for the customer and for the business than to just get them into a product as quickly as possible, particularly in a scenario where they don't need demos and it's not gonna take three months to integrate.
• 10:55
  Like, they can actually be testing it out within a couple of minutes. Yeah.
• 10:59
  The caveat I wanna add to that, though, and this is the place where we've really had to do a lot of work as a team, is well, if you're not doing that work inside of the content, you really have to do that in the product.
• 11:08
  Mm. And if your product is really not up to snuff... It's tough too, 'cause we're early stage.
• 11:13
  We're still developing, and the expectation is when you're going to market and you're talking to an SMB audience, they expect the kind of consumer grade experience, that super crisp apps, like, you know, your WhatsApps, your Slacks, your...
• 11:26
  maybe not Slack necessarily, but some of those other kinds of tools. Instagram.
• 11:29
  I mean, everything that they're used to having in terms of that experience with tech needs to be applied now to the B2B scenario, and, like, that's a heavy lift for a small team, you know? Yeah. That's interesting.
• 11:38
  Do you feel like that's different for the SMB audience versus other B2B audiences, like maybe that percent we mentioned who's, like, at a computer all day and maybe has a little more tolerance for getting up and running in a new tool?
• 11:49
  Oh, totally. This is again kind of one of the frustrating things on our marketing customer success side of the house, right? You know, we started, and we've had these conflicting signals that we've had to deal with.
• 11:58
  One signal is the true SMB who doesn't want to talk to sales, they want to get into the product, have a very nice consumer grade experience.
• 12:05
  But then on the other side, we still get plenty of, you know, this is where more of the mid-market enterprise kind of conversation comes in. People who want a traditional sales-led process. They wanna go through.
• 12:13
  They need a demo.They need handholding talking to someone at sales.
• 12:16
  And it's interesting because the PLG motion, I think we still have yet to nail, but we can really soothe and close a lot more deals if someone goes through a sales-led motion right now.
• 12:25
  And that I think is just part of, like, where our product is at and where we're at as a company in our life cycle.
• 12:29
  But it's interesting just to think about the needs and the requirements from both a, a marketing and sales and even support perspective for these two completely different pipelines that really do kind of interweave and intersect, but have to be thought of in different ways.
• 12:42
  Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. Do you all do any marketing specifically for that mid-market customer? Not necessarily.
• 12:48
  You know, everything that I write content-wise is obviously keyword-focused, and we just kind of like magically had these mid-market slash kinda enterprise deals just start to crop up.
• 12:57
  You know, they would start trials or they would request a demo, and it would be like, "Oh, shoot, guys, this is a big deal," or, "This is a huge upsell potential," you know? Right.
• 13:05
  Big distribution kinda companies, food distributors, things like that, you know, we would see the individual kind of user pop in, and that's the sign right there.
• 13:13
  Like, okay, you need to get that user to an aha moment and then get them evangelizing and becoming an advocate for you and move up the chain, obviously. That's kind of our land and expand strategy.
• 13:21
  That's, I think, a good example where the PLG motion intersects with that sales lead. Very interesting. Okay, let's, let's talk content a little bit.
• 13:27
  I think you and I actually had this conversation previously, but I recall listening to a podcast a few years ago with the former CMO at Trello talking about their content strategy and how a product like Trello has infinite use cases.
• 13:40
  And one thing they found, which is sort of a one-off thing, but I found it to be an interesting observation, was a lot of business people enter the product for the first time to accomplish a personal task.
• 13:49
  So it'd be like planning a birthday party for their kid. You know what I mean? They're like, "Oh, this is a cool project management tool. We should use it at work." Yeah.
• 13:55
  I found that to be interesting because this person was talking about, um... And I'm sorry, I can't remember the name of, of the podcast. If I can remember it, I'll put it in the show notes.
• 14:02
  But basically, there were so many use cases, it was almost impossible to cover them all. Each one has its own kind of like little life cycle, a different persona, search queries attached to it.
• 14:14
  Now, I would imagine that MessageDesk probably has that maybe at a slightly smaller scale, but the n- number of different types of SMBs and the different use cases that they might have for an SMS product, I imagine are vast.
• 14:26
  [laughs] I mean, thousands at a minimum. Oh, yeah. How do you deal with that? I would imagine, like, do you just have, like, a giant checklist, and you just slowly work through it?
• 14:34
  Maybe there's a different way you think about it. Yeah. The Trello example you bring up is a great entry point into this. We suffer from the same kind of problem, right?
• 14:40
  And everybody when you're starting out says, "Okay, nail a niche, identify your ICPs, get very, very specific about the value that you can provide to a very specific problem," right?
• 14:49
  And well, okay, you go to a messaging communications channel like SMS, well, you could send a text for literally everything. There's consumer applications, there's B2B application.
• 14:57
  There's just this huge wide swath, everything you can imagine.
• 15:01
  And I knew from the beginning that this would have to be, like, a long, bloody, all-out war, and I would have to totalize and eventually capture, like, all of the business texting SMS space for, like, all verticals, all use cases, everything.
• 15:14
  And I feel like I'm pretty close to it actually right now, which is really cool. We're at an inflection point, and that's exciting.
• 15:18
  But the first real breakthrough I had, and this is still one of our top-performing blog posts on our blog, was simply how to schedule a text message, right?
• 15:25
  And you think, "Okay, well, that's super, super broad in terms of search intent." That could be anything.
• 15:30
  That's kids trying to schedule text messages for some sort of a purpose, or somebody's trying to schedule an event reminder or something for themselves, to real hardcore businesses that are like, "No, I need to schedule text messages at scale to all of my delivery drivers that are out in the field."
• 15:44
  And through that process, that really kinda started the whole PLG, SLG, kind of like we gotta figure out our pipelines and really who our ideal customer profiles are.
• 15:52
  But, like, capturing that volume and being able to rank in that space for the first time was, was really kind of like our inflection point. Like, that's what really kinda kicked off our inbound engine.
• 16:00
  But it's been tough. You know, we've had so many internal conversations, and we've finally gotten down after the past couple years to really understand, okay, we've crystallized it into what we call a dispatch use case.
• 16:10
  That's fundamentally what it is. You've got a person at a desk who needs to talk to people in the field.
• 16:14
  They could be customers, they could be other employees or staff or something, and they need to round robin and round trip those text conversations. And, like, that's kind of the home base for us for now. Yeah.
• 16:22
  Okay, interesting. You know, it's funny, I, I googled how to schedule a text once because I was trying to figure out how to pre-schedule text messages to my wife for, like, anniversary and birthdays and stuff like that.
• 16:33
  You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Just to, like, make a hundred percent sure I didn't forget. So maybe I should have done a trial [laughs] just to... But it's interesting.
• 16:39
  What you just described is interesting because it's sort of a universal use case that I imagine cuts across a bunch of different types of businesses. So that's super interesting. Totally.
• 16:46
  I wonder, too, about content cost because I...
• 16:49
  in a situation like this, I imagine, okay, you got X number of personas, Y number of use cases, you multiply them, you get a whole bunch of potential content ideas, and then you probably look at the cost of that.
• 17:00
  Am I gonna do this myself? Am I gonna- Yeah. We gonna hire someone? We gonna use freelancers? How long is it gonna take?
• 17:04
  Like, could you walk through some of, like, the, uh, math behind it, how you sort of plan this kinda thing out? Yeah. You know, I think what you're touching on there, Jimmy, is something that is central to everybody.
• 17:14
  It's an endemic problem that everybody tries to solve when they're, they're starting up a content marketing plan. The question you're always gonna get from stakeholders is: How long is it gonna take to rank?
• 17:21
  And then, what kind of value can I expect on the back end? They wanna know, like, pure sales, pure ROI, all of that.
• 17:26
  And I've finally gotten it down to the point where I, I created thisI shouldn't say I created it, I stole it. It was, uh, a great content ROI calculator from, I believe it, it's Alex Burkett at, uh, Omniscient Digital.
• 17:37
  Yep. They had a, a great free resource, and I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna take this and kinda configure it and make it my own."
• 17:42
  And that's really been great because then you can look at a big, broad keyword space like business text messaging, right?
• 17:47
  You have all these verticals, all of these use cases, different things, and you just start pulling back and aggregating all of these keyword lists and you say, "Okay, here you go. Let's plug it in.
• 17:56
  Let's add some baseline conversion figures and start to estimate and project out." And then you can set that into the content calendar.
• 18:02
  And the way that I've, I've played this game is I'm really a, a content machine of one. I've had, uh, the ability to have a little bit of spend on this.
• 18:09
  A lot of the content's produced by me in-house, but when possible, I have agencies that are contributing, and they go through an editorial process.
• 18:15
  And I've developed a lot of materials over the years to really kind of hone that process in, give them the materials they need to produce content quickly, but also that is quality. It doesn't require a lot of editing.
• 18:24
  'Cause again, the, the time component becomes a big factor in that. Yeah. And then you set it live and then get it to rank. The other big thing that I've been exploring and really focusing on is off page stuff.
• 18:33
  Backlinks has been a big one. Really trying to boost our domain authority and then drive high-quality links to very specific posts, and that's having a really positive impact so far for us.
• 18:42
  You know, it's always, I think, important to remember as a content marketer, right, is your distribution channel. If it's SEO and that's really the game you're playing, you gotta focus on those off-site moves as well.
• 18:49
  That's really interesting. I spent some time at QuickBooks, uh, a few years ago, and obviously they cater to the SMB space as well, and I remember it was very striking to me how competitive the space was.
• 19:00
  Intuit is a large company. It's a cutthroat battle between them and Xero and FreshBooks and a couple other businesses. Do you find the same thing? Is it super competitive? It's incredibly competitive.
• 19:10
  I've got some competitors out there who, uh, I've really put a, a mark on that I'm trying to compete against, but- Mm.
• 19:15
  It's tough, too, to see other people, like, wade into the keyword space that you've been working on for a long time, and they wade into it with a whole bunch of domain authority behind their domain, and it's like- Right...
• 19:23
  Jesus, that's not fair [laughs] you know? Like- [laughs]... here I am, you know, trying to optimize, drive links and everything, and you're coming at it from a...
• 19:29
  It's that kinda classic rich get rich, poor get poor kinda scenario, and I think it's only gonna be exacerbated too by some of these changes that Google is presenting with SGE and that everyone's kinda talking about too.
• 19:39
  Yeah, yeah. The thing I keep coming back to in my brain is like we gotta see how it plays out, but Google's gonna have to figure out a way to cite sources if they want anyone to keep creating content, right?
• 19:48
  Like, if they sort of present answers in the same way that ChatGPT does, which are citation lists, why would anybody offer more content to that search engine?
• 19:57
  So I, I'm just kind of assuming that that will be figured out.
• 20:00
  Beyond that, are there things that you're either excited about or frustrated with or concerned about when it comes to whatever these coming changes will be to Google search? Yeah.
• 20:09
  I, like so many others, have very mixed feelings about this. I see some great positives and opportunities to really do some good work and to increase that content velocity.
• 20:18
  And then the other side of the coin, I see it being very destructive, too. I think that you're correct, though, and I think that this is something that they will sort out.
• 20:23
  They will figure out the annotation, citation problem in some way.
• 20:27
  What I'm kinda interested in, though, is like I don't know if what they've crafted initially with SGE is actually really gonna be compelling to consumers. I mean, is search fundamentally broken? I don't know.
• 20:36
  That's something of an open question. And there was, uh, actually a roundtable that I went to that I think Clearscope was hosting.
• 20:41
  It was back in June, and a whole bunch of great search experts, people in the content space were talking about this. The takeaway from that conversation was that it's not clear.
• 20:49
  No one understands exactly, like, what this is gonna be, and I don't think Google really understands what this is gonna be yet. Right. They're still wrestling and grappling with that.
• 20:56
  But to, I guess, kinda steelman and play the other side here, as a content creator, being able to get a really quick outline out of ChatGPT [laughs] is pretty phenomenal. Sweet. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, totally.
• 21:05
  You know, and just to be able to summarize and condense and, like, the amount of words you can move through the pipeline, essentially.
• 21:10
  Again, I think that this impacts people like me who are single person to small teams the most. It gives us a little bit more ammunition to be competitive out there. Yeah.
• 21:18
  You know, we can increase our publishing velocities. We can increase that time and that feedback and everything. So, you know, that's kinda the positive side.
• 21:24
  We have this, like, golden era right now where we can deploy these tools and, like, make some gains before everything kinda gets screwed up, [laughs] I think. Right.
• 21:31
  [upbeat music] This episode is brought to you by our friends at Minuttia. The landscape of content marketing is shifting. If you're in a SaaS company, it can feel like you're navigating a storm in a high-stakes game.
• 21:41
  Dealing with financial uncertainty? Check. Striving for sustainable and profitable growth in a volatile market? Absolutely.
• 21:48
  Working with tightened content marketing budgets, yet expected to prove higher ROI for your efforts? Yep, it's a tall order.
• 21:54
  Finding yourself having more to do with fewer hands on deck, feeling the pressure of planning for shorter timeframes, being compelled to fixate on the now? It's a tough world out there.
• 22:02
  And let's not forget AI and the upcoming changes in Google Search. It's overwhelming, isn't it?
• 22:07
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• 22:13
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• 22:23
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• 22:34
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• 22:43
  Visit minuttia.com to request a call. That's Minuttia, M-I-N-U-T-T-I-A.com.
• 22:52
  [upbeat music] Just last week, I was in New York, and, uh, I was meeting with a friend who runs a content agency, and he focuses specifically on helping companies create content for a developer audience, and he was showing me some of the ways that he uses ChatGPT to accelerate the content creation, and I was really impressed.
• 23:12
  One of the things he does is that he uses ChatGPT to generate code snippets that he needs to cite in the articles.
• 23:18
  So ChatGPT will create the code, or if he has code, he could translate it into a different programming language. Then he just runs a quick test to make sure it works.
• 23:25
  And then the writing part is fairly straightforward once you have all the code you need to write a tutorial, for example, uh, if you're writing, uh, writing stuff based on API documentation and turning it into, like, you know, more in-depth content.
• 23:36
  And he said it's cutting his content production time in half. Yeah. 'Cause he doesn't have to sit there and type out the code every time. Yeah.
• 23:41
  I personally haven't found a use case quite like that that cuts content production time in half, but I feel like those use cases are there, and maybe it's outlines.
• 23:51
  I also talked to Lane Scott Jones on the podcast recently. She runs content at Zapier.
• 23:55
  They built-A chatbot built on top of AI, and they fed it their style guide, and now they give it articles, and the chatbot will automatically make sure that article adheres to their brand guidelines.
• 24:06
  I was like, "Man, that is cool." Yeah. What an awesome use case. Great time saver. Nobody wanted to do that anyways, you know?
• 24:11
  So I imagine, like, we're gonna keep uncovering some of these kind of workflow enhancements that make it kind of just like a no-brainer. Like, not using it would be almost irresponsible probably six months from now.
• 24:21
  Oh, totally. It's funny that you bring up your guy who's using ChatGPT for code snippets, um, in a little bit different space, but I find it to be a fantastic tool for writing text message templates.
• 24:30
  [laughs] Oh, yeah, yeah. When you need a whole ideated list of happy birthday texts or holiday texts or appointment reminder follow-up texts, like, it's great at producing that stuff at scale.
• 24:40
  I mean, that alone for me is a huge time saving. It's kind of like that lower level content you just don't need to be spending your brain power on necessarily. Totally.
• 24:47
  I guess there's just so much we're gonna just have to wait and see on regarding SG specifically. Yeah.
• 24:52
  And in talking to a lot of content marketers recently, I think we went from quite a bit of fear around this to the point where some companies were holding back content budgets because they're just, like, not really sure if it's worth investing in it.
• 25:05
  I think that is, at least what I'm seeing, is that fear is subsiding. Folks are starting to feel a little more comfortable that this will all change, but it may not fundamentally change actually.
• 25:14
  Like, it may still be worth doing all the things so many of us content marketers have done for years. Do good keyword research, create good content, use the channel to get in front of the right people.
• 25:23
  I think that's still gonna be there, which at least for me personally, I'm almost to the point where I'm breathing a sigh of relief. You know what I mean? That content marketing won't just be totally upended. Sure.
• 25:33
  It will be different, but I, I think that a lot of kind of the fundamental things are still gonna be in place.
• 25:37
  I think at some level fundamentally people will always want or need to consume some sort of a content at some sort of a level. So for B2B brands, there's opportunity that's always there.
• 25:46
  That's kind of the, the big takeaway.
• 25:48
  It's interesting I think for you too particularly, Jimmy, because you have access, i.e., the Superpath community, to, like, really put your thumb on that pulse and understand and see, like, what is the temperature today or this month in terms of, like, the AI craze.
• 25:59
  So it's interesting to hear you say that that's subsiding. We just kinda have to wait and see. I don't know. Yeah, totally. The one thing I've been super curious about is are people spending money on content?
• 26:07
  If so, how much? Mm. And also, how much deliberation is there? And to be quite frank with you and listeners of the podcast, our business took a serious hit in May and June. There was so much- Sure...
• 26:20
  hesitation, so many companies just not sure. There was a lot of layoffs in the space, not that that was directly related to AI, but I feel quite confident that AI was a component of that.
• 26:29
  And just a lot of CMOs and VPs of marketing just getting pressure from a board saying, like, "Hey, content marketers are expensive. ChatGPT is twenty bucks a month. Like, come on.
• 26:37
  Let's trim things down here, see what we can do." And I feel like that's the thing that I'm sort of most excited to see kind of, like, fading into the rearview mirror. It's interesting that you bring that up.
• 26:45
  You know, I'd always thought at the beginning, this is kind of a, a pre-AI era, I guess, that I would have at one point a content marketing team.
• 26:52
  There would be people internally in-house who would know the brand and be very invested in writing content here, and it'd be this whole kind of, like, content machine, and I don't see that happening actually.
• 27:00
  But, I mean, this is really kind of the trend in, like, software right now. You're having smaller teams that are enabled to do more with less.
• 27:07
  They're kinda getting unshackled with that, and I think the overall takeaway though if you want to be a content marketer in this day and age is, you know, you really have to become a higher level operator.
• 27:16
  You know, the days of, I guess, being a, just a junior copywriter and editing content doesn't work anymore.
• 27:21
  You really have to have a full-bodied understanding of search, distribution channels, how to query AI too, and actually have to use that tool as part of your workflow and process.
• 27:29
  You know, I think that's, if I had to bet where I see things going, you really have to kind of like dial in some hardcore skills in that sense. I agree with that. I think that will have to become a universal skill.
• 27:37
  And then one other thing that we're sort of observing in the community is that folks who have previously niched down are doing better than folks who are more general.
• 27:45
  If you know enough of a programming language that you can then write content for developers in that world, that is a very valuable skill. But the same applies for writers who specialize in fintech, right?
• 27:57
  Or specialize in, you know, enterprise content strategy or sales enablement.
• 28:01
  Or, you know, so it could be industry specific, um, it could be a certain type of content that you specialize in, but I think we'll see a lot more specialization, which I think will be a good thing, right?
• 28:09
  I mean, just personal opinion. It's more satisfying to go deep on something than it is to go broad, and I think this will kind of force people to do that.
• 28:16
  But ultimately, I, I think it has the potential to be a good thing for folks. I agree. I think in the long run, you know, there's gonna be benefits and wins across the board. Can I run through...
• 28:23
  Like, I have, like, a checklist of a couple things I like to ask everybody. Yeah, go for it. One is key metrics. Like, what metrics do you really care about?
• 28:29
  And I'm gu- you had mentioned earlier that you're in charge of leads, so that's [laughs] I imagine a big one. [laughs] From a content perspective- Yeah...
• 28:35
  are there other things that you're paying very close attention to?
• 28:37
  And then related to that, do you have a Google Data Studio dashboard or analytics reports or even just a spreadsheet that you're keeping track of all this stuff in? Yeah.
• 28:45
  I mean, you've touched on a very timely nerve too with this whole switchover to GA four. I'm literally in the middle of dealing with that as a project.
• 28:51
  To answer your question at, at kind of a high level, the two primary metrics that I'm responsible for and that we've kind of boiled it down to over the years is simply unique website visitors month to month and then MQLs, and our MQL definition is maybe a little bit different than others.
• 29:05
  It's simply a, a business qualified email address filling out a form somewhere on our website. Downstream from that, MQTs are kind of a subset. Marketing qualified trials we call them.
• 29:14
  That's kind of another internal thing. Those fall out of the MQL list, but this speaks to kind of that bifurcation. An MQL can actually become an SQL and go down our sales led pipeline. Oh.
• 29:23
  Or they can become an MQT, start a trial, and then go down the PLG pipeline, basically. So I'm responsible for adding in leads at the top, top of the funnel in that sense. Got it.
• 29:32
  We also do a little bit of prospecting, so our sales team is active in trying to... you know, if there's gaps, try to fill that in. And again, we're a small team. Small, small, small.
• 29:39
  So everything comes in organically for the most part through the blog, and then it makes it into a, a meeting or to a trial, and that's how we start the whole process from there.
• 29:47
  Beyond that, you know, there are some more kind of specific metrics that I look at. We have a, what we call internally, it's a marketing signature, so that really tracks, like, the entirety of the funnel.
• 29:55
  It's kind of the, you know, the level down for granularity for me, not really for internal stakeholders necessarily. And then past that, data-wise, we've actually really kind of struggled with this.
• 30:03
  We have, on the application side, we've got a whole bunch of different stuff going where it's all event based. We're using Segment. We've got Customer.io. We're in that kind of whole data stack.
• 30:12
  Segment's our, our data pipeline.And we had thought originally GA4 switching over to this event-based architecture, well, that's fantastic. That's great for us, right?
• 30:19
  We can start to just kind of pipe this into one place and... Well, you start to go down that rabbit hole, and you realize why forty percent of the top hundred sites don't use GA at all.
• 30:27
  They've had to create these bespoke solutions for themselves, and that's kind of where we've gotten too.
• 30:33
  You know, I tasked one of our devs to help me with this project, and he's just gotten nowhere with it, unfortunately.
• 30:38
  We're simply trying to de-anonymize users inside of GA4 and, like, marry that at some level with our product data, and it's just been a whole nightmare. That's really frustrating. It is. It is.
• 30:47
  [laughs] I've heard a lot of-- horror stories is probably too strong a word, but I've heard a lot, there's a lot of frustration out there with this move to GA4.
• 30:55
  I imagine, too, that may be an opportunity for some other analytics companies. Like, we actually switched. I, I didn't make the move to GA4. I just adopted a new analytics tool. Oh, really? Yeah. It's called Fathom.
• 31:06
  What was the deal breaker for you? Just the time required to set it up. Yeah. And also, like, I didn't have anything sophisticated set up in there. I was just checking page views and organic traffic. That's basically it.
• 31:16
  So- Yeah. I ended up switching to this tool called Fathom Analytics, which is great. It's sixteen bucks a month, I think. Very simple to use. I like it.
• 31:23
  Probably not a robust enough solution for a company who's doing more sophisticated tracking, but I would imagine it's like this opportunity for other people to build amazing products in this space. Yeah.
• 31:34
  You know, the GA4 stuff, I feel like it's, you're in a really tricky position if you're the project manager or product manager for Google Analytics because you have probably these internal stakeholders who are like, "No, this needs to be a platform that helps you understand ROI on ad spend because we want to increase Google Ads adoption."
• 31:49
  And then you've got e-commerce platforms that are trying to plug in and have their stake in this.
• 31:53
  And then here you are with, you know, hardcore traditional SaaS company being like, "We love the event-based architecture, but all of this e-commerce stuff is completely wrong and doesn't track, you know, MRR in the ways that we want, and we got to marry that, and we need user IDs," and yeah, it's just, it's been a, a total mess with that.
• 32:06
  How much will the data you track influence the content you create? Again, and I guess what I mean by that is like some companies live and die by the data. Yeah. Others are lean a little bit more heavily on gut instinct.
• 32:17
  Where do you fall in that spectrum? Oof. [laughs] I'm almost sheepish to answer this question. You know, I would say up to this point, it's actually been really more on gut.
• 32:25
  We've had a really hard time just, I think because we're a small team, we're limited by our abilities and our tools and stuff to really, really nail attribution, and I don't think you can really nail attribution a hundred percent.
• 32:35
  And when you see enterprise-level companies still struggling with these same core fundamental problems, and, you know, maybe theirs are a little bit bigger, there's more numbers, there's more infrastructure around it.
• 32:44
  I've had to rely on just the basics of like, okay, what's the landing page? Did they convert to a trial or fill out a form? You know, if you can answer those questions, then you can start to eventually...
• 32:53
  You know, I want to be able to answer questions like, well, you know, which blog post produced the most amount of MRR on a monthly basis, right?
• 32:59
  Well, people don't convert in a single month, so you have that kind of nuance and data problem that you've got to account for. We get a lot of spam traffic sometimes that comes in and will blow out our numbers.
• 33:07
  You have to be able to clean that out, so you need to go to this data lake that's got bronze, silver, and gold tables that get reconciled, and now we're into a dev problem, and it's like, Jesus, I just need to sit in GA4 [laughs] and, like, run a simple split test, you know?
• 33:19
  Like... Totally. Do you think, like, as you think about your content calendar over the next, call it six months, like, do you already have a pretty strong sense of what that looks like? Yeah.
• 33:28
  You know, and I guess this kind of brings it full circle. I've been going at this now for almost five years, and we've produced... I'm almost at my hundredth blog post here on the website. Oh, wow. That's a lot.
• 33:37
  It's a lot. And I, I knew that this was kinda gonna be the game originally, but now it's a question of like, well, okay, what space is left? Out of the search intent that's still out there, where are the missing holes?
• 33:45
  And, like, we're kind of down to it, which is exciting for us as we-- we're actually transitioning our product from kind of the first version to the second version behind the scenes, and we're gonna open up a whole lot of different avenues and pathways content-wise.
• 33:58
  You know, we started with text messaging, but the vision is far greater than that. We've always viewed ourselves as a communications company. Mm.
• 34:04
  So imagine, you know, your WhatsApp messages inside of MessageDesk, or being able to place phone calls inside of MessageDesk, or the next generation of SMS that Google's preparing is, uh, RCS.
• 34:15
  That's a whole separate thing. So okay, we'd have support for those messages in the future. And that's really what we're kind of preparing for it.
• 34:20
  But until that becomes a possibility for me in the product, this is kind of the drawback in some ways with product-led growth is, you know, I can't really make a very compelling case or really go after that keyword space.
• 34:30
  I could sure, you know, go and produce content in like the phone space, but is it really gonna convert? Is it really gonna be valuable at this stage? Well, kind of a cart and horse problem.
• 34:37
  But yeah, business text messaging-wise, like, I think, again, it's just been a totalizing effort, like go capture all of it. Got it. No, it makes sense.
• 34:43
  You know, one of the thing we ask pretty much everybody is, uh, do you have a weekly or monthly content meeting? If so, what happens? You know, do you have an agenda you can share?
• 34:52
  As a team of one, is there someone else on the team that you are running ideas by, gut checking stuff, looking at numbers with, or totally get it if this is the case, like everyone's sort of got their lane, and they're running really fast, and they gotta stick to it.
• 35:06
  Yeah. You know, my process around really kind of setting the content calendar and getting stakeholder buy-in and everything, I create a roadmap.
• 35:13
  So every quarter I sit down, and I say, "Okay, here are the pieces that are gonna go into a given monthly, quarterly cycle." The cadence that I try to aim for is four posts in a month or one post a week.
• 35:23
  That's pretty much been the cadence that I've been able to run with, and it's been really effective, which has been great.
• 35:27
  In terms of actually like ideating and creating content, I really, really rely on my sales team and support team.
• 35:33
  They literally are in the office right next to me here, and we go over and, and we talk just off the cuff all the time about, "Hey, you know, there's this user that came in. They're talking about this problem."
• 35:42
  That sparks kind of a content idea. Or, "Oh, we need to talk about CRM integrations in relation to text messaging," da, da, da. "Here's, you know, what I'm hearing from the sales conversations."
• 35:51
  So I like to think that we have a very kind of symbiotic close tie between marketing, sales, customer success. We're all, we're all heavily invested in the same kinds of outcomes too.
• 35:59
  Again, that's kind of the benefit of being a small team, but, you know, I derive a lot of my insights from them because it's tough. I have a little bit more of a head down kind of a, a role here.
• 36:07
  So Ben, our customer success manager, he's, he's the one who's actually actively interviewing customers, and those insights are just golden when I can glean them.
• 36:14
  You mentioned something, that you're in an office.And those folks are in the office next to you. Yeah.
• 36:18
  We've actually talked about sales marketing alignment quite a bit on this podcast, and oftentimes because it's happening asynchronously, you need a tool to manage it, you have to schedule time with people to go through it, all of which is good and for most teams, like, that's just the way it's gonna be.
• 36:32
  But because you guys are in the office, like, do you have a process for it or is it just as simple as like, "Hey, how'd that call go? Did you learn anything? Anything I can use for marketing," kind of thing? Yeah.
• 36:40
  I guess if we have kind of a strongly held opinion organizationally, we do have a hybrid model, so some of our employees and stakeholders work from home on certain days.
• 36:48
  But for the most part, you know, we were very clear we wanted an office setting. We wanted a place where people could actually coalesce, commingle, connect with each other.
• 36:56
  From the executive level too, being able to walk in and gauge people's temperatures and excitement levels and, like, where they're stuck at, there's a huge benefit to that.
• 37:04
  So we've tried to also be accommodating too and understanding about the kind of the hybrid model.
• 37:08
  To go back to your second point, though, in terms of really kind of the process behind this, I would suspect in years to come as we maybe get a little more employees, more cooks in the kitchen, that this becomes more of a formalized process.
• 37:17
  You know, it's, it's an interesting insight because we're so early stage and so small, and I've never really actually run a huge content team.
• 37:23
  So those folks have completely different perspectives and, you know, ways to actually manage work product. What we've got though is small scale.
• 37:30
  Like, you know, we run inside of ClickUp, that's our project management software, and we've really kind of built that out. It's very simple, you know, to do, doing, done. It's, it's Kanban swim lanes.
• 37:38
  Where are we at with this? And then thinking about, okay, every day do my actions, the things that I'm doing contribute to ROI?
• 37:44
  I will say though, one of the big framing methodologies that we've recently installed are OKRs. Some of the maybe more seasoned veterans might be kinda laughing and being like, oh, you know.
• 37:52
  For us this is a new thing relatively, but it's a way to really get and ensure alignment between marketing, sales, customer success because each of us really have our own department.
• 38:01
  There's one person basically [chuckles] who manages that entire process, so- Right... it becomes a real struggle for being a doer and then also a thinker and a manager.
• 38:09
  You have to manage your own work product and then also execute on that work product.
• 38:12
  And we've gone through several iterations of dealing with this, but OKRs have kind of been the first effective, like, framing method that we've found for that, for that alignment. That's interesting.
• 38:20
  Was it difficult to adopt OC- OKRs? Or once you agreed on it, was it pretty smooth? It was actually really smooth, honestly. It was a very natural transition.
• 38:27
  We've always been conscious about tracking very specific data points. Every department head has basically been held to some very specific growth metrics.
• 38:35
  Our CEO's really been great about that and thinking about that from the beginning.
• 38:38
  This just kind of took it to the next level and helped us kind of crystallize and, and clarify, well, wait a minute, okay, if these are the metrics and the goals that we wanna run to, what are the actual, you know, methodologies for getting there?
• 38:48
  How do these tie together, and what's the inter- interconnectedness of all of this? Love it. Really cool.
• 38:52
  Like I mentioned, I was in New York last week, and I'm a really big proponent of remote and asynchronous work, but being in a room with a couple people for a few days was just amazing.
• 39:01
  And I know every day at the office isn't like that. Oh, yeah. But stuff did come up that would never have come up otherwise, which was a lot of fun. Yeah. Anyways, gave me some nostalgia. A little bit. Not a ton.
• 39:11
  Not a ton. [laughs] But a little bit [laughs] for kinda the old days of being in an office. Yeah. It's that synergy, man. You know? Sometimes you just can't replace it. Yeah. Totally.
• 39:19
  One last thing I wanted to touch on was before sort of recording, you teased the idea of community, kinda where that fits in with MessageDesk marketing and potentially where it overlaps with content marketing.
• 39:28
  Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah. We've had conversations before about this, and you turned me on to, uh, The Cold Start Problem by Andrew Chen, so I just started reading that.
• 39:35
  The first big kind of revelation for us when we went to SaaStr as a company was PLG. The second revelation was a community-led motion. It's interesting too because there are particularly...
• 39:44
  It was a talk at SaaStr that I went to, I think it was, uh, GGV Ventures, and these guys really do a lot of investment, particularly in the SMB kind of mid-market SaaS space.
• 39:53
  And the two things that they really called out when it comes to a go-to-market strategy is content. Content is, is great. SEO's your distribution channel. That's king. That's always gonna be there, I think.
• 40:02
  But then the corollary to that is really this community motion, and it's the one plus a percentage, the referral, the word of mouth referral, the virality, and that's what I'm interested in exploring, especially as we know by the end of the year, search, the search space is gonna be changing, right?
• 40:16
  And I don't know exactly how that's gonna affect particularly SMB searches and what's gonna happen. So as a channel, I'm looking at exploring this. It also kinda... You know, it, it ties into our product perfectly.
• 40:26
  I think for us it could potentially be a great channel. I don't have it all figured out by any means. The conversation should go back to you. I feel like you're the king of community in this sense with Superpath.
• 40:34
  [laughs] What is it? 20,000 members or so you've gotten up to? [laughs] Yeah. Well, sort of.
• 40:38
  We're shrinking it back down at the moment, [laughs] which is a whole nother thing, as we're making the switch from free to paid, which I'm really excited about, and it's kind of a whole nother thing. Yeah.
• 40:47
  But, you know, I think of community as, I personally think of it as like a community is people in a Slack group. [laughs] You know what I mean?
• 40:53
  I have like a super narrow version of it just because, like, that's what I've been working on for a couple years now. Oh, totally. For SaaS businesses, there's so many other things that can constitute community.
• 41:04
  Like, one thing you mentioned is existing customers.
• 41:06
  I think it could be amazing because many of the businesses, it sounds like, operate locally, they're non-competitive, therefore actually they could be quite supportive of one another, sharing ideas.
• 41:15
  Maybe there's ways to like highlight some of the best performing messages and share those around as templates to existing customers or have workshops where power users are showing newer customers how they find success with the product.
• 41:27
  Like, there's a lot there, and I actually feel like in the PLG space, a handful of companies, I'm thinking of the Notions and the Airtables of the world, uh, have leaned very heavily on community to the point where there's people who do marketing for Notion and Airtable for them because they love the product.
• 41:44
  In some cases, they're monetizing, you know, selling templates and that's a whole nother route. Yeah. But I would imagine that there's a bunch of ways where you can get people together.
• 41:52
  To me, this is like the beauty of the community is like if you can get the people together and allow them to communicate directly with each other, amazing things happen.
• 41:59
  Like in our community, stuff comes up that I would never have expected. Right. And no amount of keyword research or customer calls or anything else could have led me to.
• 42:06
  It's just like give people a place to feel comfortable and safe and they'll ask the questions that oftentimes really reveal the things going on in their mind and the problems they're having in their business and things like that, so.
• 42:19
  Yeah, that feedback loop that you're kind of talking about there, that's where I feel like the content kind of intersects. Inside of those community groups is really where the richest stuff is kinda happening.
• 42:26
  Yeah, totally. Okay, cool. Kyle, super interesting. I just, I'm always excited to talk to one-person marketing teams because you just find out, you just learn a whole lot. Like, there's no BS in your strategy.
• 42:37
  [laughs] Right? [laughs] Like, there's very limited time, there's limited resources, so like you're always prioritizing.
• 42:42
  I really like that because you always find that one-person marketing teams have like a very, very clear understanding of what needs to happen, how it's gonna happen, what it's gonna cost. Yeah.
• 42:52
  The term I guess I would give myself is a, a content mercenary, right?
• 42:55
  You have to be very mercenary about the choices that you make, and if something's not working or [chuckles] if it's not happening in the timeline, you gotta cut it, you know? Yeah, totally.
• 43:01
  No, it's true, and I feel like while it's just different at larger companies, there's always something that can be learned by the smaller, leaner teams, you know, about some of that kind of ruthless mentality that keeps the one-person teams going, so.
• 43:13
  Oh, yeah.
• 43:13
  I look forward to the day when MessageDesk is a, is a huge organization, but I'll probably look back on these days fondly and be like, "Man, back when we were in our, you know, our old office and it was just a one-person team, one-man show, and it's just us hanging out, like those were probably the golden days."
• 43:25
  Yeah. Totally. Well, when that day comes, we'll do a follow-up episode and we'll talk about the journey from one-person marketing team- [laughs]... to 50-person marketing team. Dude, that'll be the day.
• 43:34
  That'll be the day. I'll come back for that for sure. Yeah. [laughs] Well, cool, Kyle. Thanks again so much. Seriously appreciate your time.
• 43:40
  We'll obviously send folks to MessageDesk so they can check out the content, see what it looks like in real life. Anywhere else we can send them, your LinkedIn, Twitter, a personal website, or anywhere else? Oh, yeah.
• 43:50
  Feel free to go to the website and judge away at my content. [laughs] Or, uh, kindly offer, uh, critique for sure.
• 43:55
  I'm not super, super active on any of the social profiles or anything like that, but LinkedIn's gonna be the best place to find me. Okay, cool. Awesome.
• 44:01
  We'll make sure we link to that, and we'll look forward to having you back soon. Thanks so much, Kyle. Awesome. Thank you so much, Jimmy. Pleasure. [outro music]