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Anxious Attachment Healing: Stop Overthinking & Fear of Abandonment · Rooted Conversations with Mitch Webb

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All right, everybody. Welcome to the Rooted Conversations
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podcast. Today, my guest is Valerie Rubin. Valerie
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and I were trying to figure out the last time
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we met. It's been years ago. Her podcast is the
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Anxiety Recovery podcast. And I'll link to that.
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And I was just kind of reflecting on that podcast
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and I remember If I'm correct, at that time,
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to show how much things can shift in a short
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period of time, I believe that trauma had to
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do with, you know, only people who were in the
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military or in bad accidents. And I was still
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in my fix and figure out and force mode when
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it came to healing anxiety. I thought it was
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due to nutritional deficiencies. And I laugh
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because so much has changed. And also to demonstrate
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that it is okay to change our mind and change
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what we think, and that's what growth is. Valerie,
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welcome to the theater. Thank you so much for
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having me on Mitch. And yeah, like I totally
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hear where you're coming from. A lot of people
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can go down that route like health wise and be
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like, Oh, it's these toxins. Oh, it's because
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I have a parasite. It's because of this nutritional
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deficiency. And while those things may not make
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your mental health better, but it's not typically
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a root cause like 99 % of the time it's trauma
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or our environment or most likely a combination
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of both. Fun fact, before I started my career
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in psychology, I started a certification in health
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coaching and then I decided to pivot into hypnotherapy
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and then somatic therapy and all the things.
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I understand where you're coming from. I find
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that if we go down that route, of just focusing
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on the physical health things or the nutritional
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deficiencies that we might have, it almost gives
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us unconsciously a form of control versus our
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trauma that we've experienced as children or
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CBTSD can look harder to quote unquote treat
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or resolve. Yeah, and that when you say that
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I agree with that and it's kind of like the I
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just had a question about You know, is it top
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-down or is it bottom -up? And what I've learned
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I used to think there was a war between the two
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and that it's all somatic and you know The brain
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is just force and overriding but if we if we
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don't work with our beliefs Then we're disconnecting
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from the body if we don't work with our body
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and we're only working with the mind then we're
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disconnecting from the body and And so much of
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this work is being in relationship with, and
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it's really easy to go into the force, fix it,
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figure out, do, do, do mentality because that's
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what society rewards and that's what looks sexy.
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And until you do this work and you can, you start
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to see more nuance and we have more choice. And
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I think we need both of those worlds to heal.
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I agree and and right like it's not just somatics
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right or it's not just top down like we need
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a combination of both like trauma can affect
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people differently but like many ways that trauma
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can can show up is our in our beliefs and in
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the sensations in our bodies and what's happening
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somatically so it's both and like beliefs and
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catastrophic thinking and rumination, all of
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these can also be protector parts. And it's like
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when we've experienced trauma as a child, we
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don't have that logical part of our mind online
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yet. So we then internalize everything that our
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parents are doing or not doing and starting to
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believe, well, there is something wrong with
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me. I'm not good enough. You know, X, Y, Z is
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better than me. because my parent or parents
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aren't doing XYZ because we don't know any other
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way other than to blame ourselves and that could
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be like self blame is also a big protector part
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in our future relationships and it can carry
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into adulthood if we don't work on that protector
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part as well. Yeah, and what I think about when
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you say that is You know having a belief that
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says there this isn't safe But I'm gonna shake
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until I feel it so we learn something about somatic
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and how we need to feel and move through but
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if we if we discard or we don't we're not aware
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of the beliefs it's easy to You know go into
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that shame part and and and shame ourselves because
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we're and I think for me that feels grosser Is
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what I'm noticing is that disconnection, but
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but it makes sense. It's very Intelligent or
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self -preserving. I believe that I hear this
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in arm where it's like talking about the environment
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if I have environment and no failure as a kid,
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it's impossible for me to look at my parents
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as Having failed my needs not giving me what
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I need and so we turn that back on ourself Mm
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-hmm. Absolutely Because as a child, we are completely
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emotionally and physically dependent on our caregivers
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to meet our needs. So when they are not meeting
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our needs, we don't stop loving ourselves or
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stop loving them. We just begin to start hating
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ourselves. As a result, we then start to create
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protector parts like self blame, fantasy thinking,
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fantasy thinking of if my parent could just go
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to therapy, if they were to change, if they were
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to just stop working and be home with me, then
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everything would be great. Or one that I remember
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vividly like working with in somatic therapy
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and one. distortion that I would use as a child
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was I remember being three years old and you
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know my aunt was married at the time and my parents
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marriage was completely dysfunctional and chaotic
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and I remember being three years old looking
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at my aunt and thinking in my head it's all going
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to be okay when I get married and I grow up so
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that's like an example of fantasy thinking of
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rumination this is like a protector part that
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stops us when our body believes this is going
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to be too much, this is going to be overwhelming.
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Trauma is defined as too much, too fast, too
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overwhelming. So then we create this protector
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part where we're all up in our heads and then
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we completely disconnect from our body. And so
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then we're catastrophizing, ruminating, analyzing
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every situation, analyzing everything that's
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wrong with us, analyzing everything that's wrong
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with situations or people around us or overthinking
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to stop ourselves from actually feeling what's
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happening in our body. And then cognitive dissonance,
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when our parent might be unpredictable or inconsistent.
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This is really common if your parent or parents
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were narcissistic, maybe an alcoholic or just
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unpredictable or inconsistent, right? Like we
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can have parents that are trying their best,
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but it's like, you know, one day they're meeting
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all your needs, they're being great to you when
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they're sober or great to you when their ex -husband
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is out of the picture, but then when, you know,
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the next day, maybe they're cold, maybe they're
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distant, maybe they're harsh toward you, and
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then it creates this cognitive dissonance of,
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but they have been so good to me. are like, they've
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been so good to me. So how could they be this
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type of person? How could they be this type of
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parent? And in adulthood, this is what can keep
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you in toxic relationships is these protector
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parts that don't allow you to see the red flags.
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They don't allow you to see the whole picture
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because that would break a child's psyche if
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they learned my parent or parents cannot meet
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my needs. Because the three -year -olds can't
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just leave their parent. So when we're telling
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people or clients, you just need to leave your
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toxic husband. If they have an unhealed abandonment
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wound, what's going to start happening is they're
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going to block out those red flags. They're going
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to experience cognitive dissonance because if
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the pain of the abandonment is bigger than the
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pain of staying in this relationship, this emotion
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of the pain of abandonment wins every single
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time. And it's it's uh it's saying you know it's
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recognizing we have a need and it's almost like
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we're connecting need to shame and so every time
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we have a need I'm going to shame myself because
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I can't have both and I can't see if the environment
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is not giving me what I want that would be too
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much and then so as adults we take these patterns
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into our relationship and we say, oh man, this
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feels, maybe I've built capacity and I've built
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awareness and I can feel into this environment
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is not for me. But because that's connected to
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a need, if we haven't healed that wound, we're
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going to go back into our patterns. We're going
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to be perfect. We're going to armor up. We're
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going to do the hard thing. We're going to find
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a way to shame and blame ourselves instead of
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trusting the innate intelligence that is coming
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through. Absolutely. And I'm glad you brought
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up shame and then needs because people in these
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types of environments, they start to learn if
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their parent was like, you know, maybe they were
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working a few jobs to keep food on the table.
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You know, maybe they were just right, like I
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said, alcoholics, narcissistic or just emotionally
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unavailable or just inconsistent in meeting your
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needs. The child then learns my needs are too
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much. So then in adulthood, you might have extreme
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anxiety around even sharing your needs or sharing
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that you even experienced fear or anxiety around
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sharing your emotions with others, even if they're
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safe, because you learned I need to suppress
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my needs to be safe. I need to silence this need.
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And so a lot of clients come to me and they Instead
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of realizing this environment is unsafe, they
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blame themselves for their triggers and reactions.
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When in reality, your reactions and triggers
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are completely valid. It's just you haven't learned
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that my needs are okay, that my needs even matter
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in the first place. Absolutely. And I'm just
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learning about all this stuff, learning about
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a little bit about attachment. That's about the
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extent of my knowledge right there than what
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we talked about. I guess I'm curious, you mentioned
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going from health coach and then into more of
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what sounds like the mental health and healing
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space. Tell us a little bit about your background
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and your journey. What can you share about that?
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Yeah, that's such a great question, Mitch. So
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I started out, you know, I was doing all the
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right things. I was seeing a talk therapist for
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five years. I was working out every day. I was
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doing yoga. I was meditating every day. I even
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went on medication. Nothing helped the anxiety
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that I was experiencing until I started to work
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with the body and do somatic work and hypnotherapy.
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before being introduced to those modalities,
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the anxiety was so bad, it started to develop
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into cystic acne all over my face. It started
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to show up as chronic headaches, neck pain, back
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pain, shoulder pain, IBS. Even like different
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doctors were telling me that I had symptoms of
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hydromyalgia in my early 20s. And I was just
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so frustrated feeling like I'm in my early 20s.
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I shouldn't feel this way. I'm young. Why do
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I feel like I'm literally living in the body
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of a 90 year old woman? And then as I started
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incorporating hypnotherapy and somatic work.
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the chronic pain and the health symptoms went
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away within six months. And, you know, family
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relationships started getting better. I wasn't
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as triggered. I started to become repulsed by
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emotionally unavailable partners. I started to
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be able to choose healthier friendships. I was
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able to step into my purpose. I was able to just
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have so much more capacity because I wasn't in
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those type of health issues. And even just each
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day, if I go and strength train, I just thank
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my body for how much I'm able to do because in
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that stretch of time, when I was battling these
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health issues that had no medical cause, they,
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you know, I thought I'd be in a wheelchair at
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this age. I thought I was never going to get
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better. I thought... that I was just stuck in
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this body and so I couldn't even strength train
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or work out all I could do was yoga like very
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gentle yoga because everything else would inflame
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my muscles and my body and so every time I go
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to the gym now I'm like wow thank you body for
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moving with ease thank you body for the ability
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to walk and move And yeah, that's a little bit
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about my story. And then I started to get trained
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as a hypnotherapist and then got trained in somatic
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therapy like IFS, brain spotting. And then I
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learned all about nervous system regulation and
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rewiring. the body rewiring the mind and you
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know our attachment styles are a reflection of
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our nervous system state and how we learn to
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relate with our caregivers. So for example if
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you have an anxious attachment you are chronically
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anxious. So a lot of people will come to me and
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they're concerned about their anxious attachment
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and they look at it as oh my romantic relationships
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are being harmed or they're suffering because
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of my anxious attachment. But your anxious attachment
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style is impacting every single area of your
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life. We could have different attachments, like
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we could be secure in our friendships, anxious
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in our romantic lives, and then like avoid it
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with our business or finances. Or we could just
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be anxious across all three, right? And so It's
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not just a one -off issue. If you're having attachment
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issues, I guarantee you are also having money
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issues. So this is all ways that it shows up.
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You can't just look at your attachment style
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from the lens of, I want healthier romantic partners.
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It's also about your nervous system state. If
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you're chronically anxious, you've learned to
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relate to the world and to your relationships
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in an anxious way. And then if you are more avoidant
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leaning or avoidantly attached. This means that
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your needs were chronically dismissed, unmet,
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or you were neglected. So you learned, I can't
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voice my needs, so instead we're going to shut
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down. We're going to avoid conflict. We're going
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to avoid our feelings because we never learned
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how to attune. they also have a fear of abandonment.
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And then with anxious attachment, they also have
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fear of abandonment. And with anxiously attached
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people, what they end up doing is they are hyper
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available and hyper attuned to other. So they
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learned my needs are inconsistently met. So I
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am chronically anxious. I'm hyper vigilant. I'm,
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I'm someone who can scan the room. I know exactly
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who's walking down the stairs by their energy,
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right? That's hyper vigilance, waiting for the
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shoe to drop, jealousy, co -dependence. codependency
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that a lot of the times my clients describe it
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as, is my partner had a bad day? Now I'm having
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a bad day. If my partner's safe, I'm safe. And
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so this is a lot of the work that I do is helping
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people realize, hey, your attachment style is
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not your identity. This is a beginning start.
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Your attachment style is not fixed. It is something
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that we can work on. No matter what attachment
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label, attachment style you are, we can all move
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toward a secure way of being and more securely
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attached relationships. Wow. Thank you for sharing
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all that. First, I just want to go back to doing
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all the right things and nothing seems to work.
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I mean, that's bad. That's myself. biohacking
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and looking for the perfect diet and, uh, you
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know, ultimately trying to control what didn't
18:25
feel safe. And that was everything. And we, we
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feel like if I can check the boxes, you know,
18:32
cross all the things off the list and I do that
18:34
every single day, then I'll be perfect and nothing
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bad or ever happened to me. Yeah. Then, you know,
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but we keep going down this rabbit hole and it's
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so many of the clients that I'm working with
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as well, where it's just, I've done this for
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so long. the symptoms just get worse. Maybe there's
18:50
a period of time where there's a placebo effect
18:52
and we got a new thing and we feel good, we feel
18:55
secure, safe for a week or two and then we go
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right back into that shame blame cycle and now
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we're looking for the next thing. So if that
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sounds like you, you're in the right place and
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both Valerie and I both went through this process
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of exhausting the health world. But the health
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world What would chew you up and spit you out
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if you don't learn about the nervous system about
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regulation about? Attachment because we're just
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gonna keep doing and pushing harder not paying
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attention to our body and looking for the answers
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out here and Yeah, that's like chasing your own
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tail. It's exhausting Yes, and that is a great
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point that I want to circle back to we're looking
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externally Right? We're looking externally for
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the answers to our health problems. We're looking
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to our partner to soothe us. We're looking for
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the amount of our 100 grand figure or six figure
19:55
year to make us feel safe and secure and stable.
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Right? Because an anxious attachment learns I
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don't have safety internally. The only way I
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can get it is externally and like you're saying,
20:08
controlling the external. And so a lot of clients
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come to me because they're also chronically struggling
20:14
with anxiety in their relationships. Like a client
20:17
came to me struggling with anxiety because who
20:21
is dating a partner for a few years and she was
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like, I'm so anxious. All my friends are getting
20:26
married. All my friends are having babies and
20:28
I I'm just waiting for him to step up and marry
20:32
me and then I'm going to feel safe. And what
20:35
did that do? All that did is put strain on the
20:38
relationship, put stress on her and her partner
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because we're trying to control the external
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because that's all we've learned. People also
20:47
shame people for trying to control. But if you've
20:51
never had internal safety, of course, we're going
20:54
to try and cultivate that externally. Like, of
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course, we're going to do that. So not shaming
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yourself. for also experiencing that and going
21:06
back to the thought of you're doing all the right
21:10
things a lot of people are just unaware that
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trauma is physiological meaning it's stored in
21:16
our body so we can know logically hey my partner
21:21
is on a business trip or You know, I'm going
21:24
to be OK whether or not my partner marries me.
21:27
But try telling that to your body when he goes
21:29
on a business trip and you're you're freaking
21:32
out inside thinking he's going to find another
21:34
woman who's more interesting, more smart, prettier,
21:38
all the stories that your mind is telling you
21:40
to reaffirm this belief that you're not good
21:43
enough. So, of course, you're going to feel anxious.
21:45
Of course, you're going to feel on edge. And
21:49
so when we. put that back on ourselves of pointing
21:54
back to healing our anxious attachment from the
21:58
root of it. When we learn, hey, this is physiological,
22:01
no amount of insight, no one are talking about
22:03
our anxiety or trauma is going to stop a panic
22:09
attack. You can know all the insight in the world
22:12
and know why you do this, this and this, but
22:14
your nervous system still thinks you're being
22:16
chased by a tiger and so with the work I do with
22:20
clients is we work with the body sensations and
22:24
we work with the emotions that are stored in
22:27
the body because your anxious attachment style
22:29
is just a symptom of the dysregulation in your
22:33
body. Your thoughts are a symptom of your fight
22:37
or flight state. When we're anxious, when our
22:41
nervous system is in that fight or flight response,
22:43
we're going to go to the worst case scenarios.
22:46
We're going to catastrophize. We're going to
22:49
ruminate. And so when we work with the body,
22:53
clients will tell me I finally feel a sense of
22:57
relief in my body. I finally feel safe. I feel
23:01
like I can surrender. I feel like I can let go.
23:04
But we cannot do that until the body feels safe.
23:07
And as we work with the body semantically and
23:11
help the body feel safe on a physiological and
23:13
somatic level, that's when the thoughts naturally
23:17
begin to feel positive. And that's when the trauma
23:23
cycle loop ends. This is when our body tells
23:26
us I am safe now and I'm not living in the past
23:30
anymore. I think that's some some place I want
23:34
to pick a little bookmark and go into safety
23:37
because I've got this question myself and think
23:40
about it a lot like how if we've never had that
23:43
so if you're someone that's listening and you're
23:45
like oh yeah that's me I've never experienced
23:47
safety in my life and it takes a while to notice
23:50
that. I didn't recognize that until a year or
23:53
two even work, but it's a question that I get
23:56
all the time. Where do you start with folks that
23:58
have never learned safety? Yeah, that is a lot
24:02
of folks, especially with the world's going on
24:05
right now externally, right? And if you've had
24:07
CBTSD or chronic stress or trauma, of course
24:11
you would feel like the world is on fire. I'm
24:13
on fire, et cetera. What we don't want to start
24:18
with and where a lot of people go wrong with
24:21
these types of courses on anxiety or trauma is
24:27
people think, OK, I should do this exercise and
24:30
I should feel 100 % calm. But like you said,
24:32
if we've been in survival mode our entire life,
24:35
that's going to feel like too much of a swing
24:37
to the other side. That's going to feel unsafe.
24:39
So a process that I work with clients is something
24:43
called titration. So when we're doing somatic
24:47
work, we don't want to go straight into the trauma
24:50
right away necessarily or straight into that
24:52
activation or triggering thought or memory or
24:55
sensation We want to help the body feel even
24:58
1 % more safe. So in the first call I have with
25:02
clients is and something you can do to start
25:06
orienting yourself to safety is We're not starting
25:10
with, okay, I'm at a 10 out of 10 on anxiety.
25:13
I'm going to be at a zero out of 10 after this
25:15
exercise. We want to get to, okay, what is something
25:17
that's going to help me feel 1 % more safe? So
25:21
one of the modalities I'm trained in is brain
25:24
spotting. It is a body -based psychotherapy that
25:29
uses the visual field to help process different
25:34
trauma through the body. something that we can
25:39
do and start with is even just taking a body
25:43
scan here for a moment, noticing where in my
25:46
body do I feel even 1 % more safe, grounded or
25:51
even neutral. Perfect, perfect. So using that
25:57
as an example, or a lot of my clients say like
26:00
they feel their feet grounded on the floor. Okay,
26:04
feeling your butt or feeling your feet grounded
26:06
on the floor, noticing that groundedness. And
26:10
then with brain spotting, I want you to look
26:13
around the room. Finding the spot that amplifies
26:17
this neutrality, like, you know, if even like
26:21
you're right pinky toe, that feels neutral, right?
26:24
Looking around the room, finding a spot that
26:27
amplifies this feeling of calm or groundedness.
26:30
So we're pairing those sensations of calm or
26:33
neutrality with the spot in our visual field.
26:36
And then I'll even invite clients to... They
26:39
could do this with their eyes open or closed.
26:41
I invite them to keep them open, especially if
26:44
you've never experienced safety or you're feeling
26:46
hyper vigilant. Looking at the spot and so thinking
26:51
of a time or place that you felt safe or at peace
26:57
or you could even imagine you were at peace,
27:01
right? A lot of clients tell me, you know, it's
27:04
in my garden or it's at the beach. or it's in
27:08
the mountains, right? Or even thinking of a safe
27:12
person or a safe animal, right? Maybe that's
27:15
your cat, maybe that's your dog, maybe that's
27:18
your nephew that you babysit, right? And then
27:21
it's like, okay, I'm thinking about how calm
27:25
and happy and joyful I am when I'm babysitting
27:27
my nephew. I feel that still in my feet, that
27:31
groundedness, and I start to feel that relaxation
27:34
in my chest. And then we're focusing on that.
27:37
Right? So we just need to be there for even one
27:40
minute, a few minutes. And then this is what
27:43
starts to help our body to feel safe and grounded.
27:48
Another thing that I find really, really helpful
27:50
is if you've experienced chronic stress or trauma,
27:54
What ends up happening is we have something called
27:56
our vagus nerve. And our vagus nerve controls
28:00
whether or not our fight or flight system gets
28:02
turned on. But when we've experienced chronic
28:05
stress or trauma, it stays stuck on. So this
28:08
could look like chronic anxiety and hypervigilance.
28:11
So what we want to do is we want to... start
28:15
to stimulate our vagus nerve with vagus toning
28:18
exercises. And these are different exercises
28:21
that I teach my clients and doing that consistently,
28:25
not just when you're triggered because you don't
28:29
want to just do tools when you're triggered because
28:33
then it's like using the metaphor of if you're
28:38
just using tools when you're triggered, that's
28:41
like. I'm just learning how to swim when I'm
28:44
drowning. We're gonna teach you. Let me stop
28:46
you right there. Yeah. In the beginning, I hear
28:49
you and I'm with you. I just want to specify
28:51
for everybody, in the beginning, what if someone
28:53
is triggered all the time? Is it just, let me
28:56
find that 1 % and just keep connecting to that.
29:00
So titrating what it feels like to feel something
29:03
that feels good. Yes. So we want to start with
29:06
that, right? Wearing your body, even amidst that
29:09
you're triggered, right? You're really fucking
29:11
triggered right now by your partner, or you're
29:13
really triggered by your health flare, or you're
29:15
really triggered by your company and how it's
29:19
going. OK, we can notice that trigger and activation
29:22
in your body. That's great. And where is the
29:25
spot in your body that feels 1 % more safe or
29:28
neutral? And focusing on that. And a big thing
29:32
that is important to know, Something that's changed
29:36
my life this year and last year is when something
29:41
feels big or really triggers you, that is coming
29:46
from a young part in the past. That is not coming
29:50
from your true adult self who's living in the
29:53
present right now. So when we're reacting to
29:56
something that looks disproportionate, to what's
30:00
actually happening that's coming from a young
30:02
part. So what I teach clients is also how to
30:05
unblend from these young parts. So we can then
30:09
start to have some separation from that. So then
30:12
we are making choices and decisions from our
30:17
adult self, and we're able to come back into
30:19
adult self and not stay stuck in our young parts.
30:23
Love it. So in the beginning, it's not about,
30:27
hey, Val, I've got all this, I love the stuff
30:30
you're talking about, the anxious attachment,
30:32
and our hair is on fire all the time. Like, let's
30:34
work on, I know where it happened when I have
30:37
these three or four different traumas that I'd
30:39
like to work on. And we feel like if I, maybe
30:42
we've had a lot of education, I feel like if
30:45
I can work on this list of things, that eventually
30:48
I'm gonna be okay. All right, and instead it's
30:50
like, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, let's come
30:52
on back. Let's work on safety. Let's learn to
30:56
brain spotting. I would call that orienting.
31:00
Um, that is one way. It can help with orienting,
31:04
if we're using it in that way that I mentioned,
31:06
but we can also use it to process those stored
31:09
traumas in our body and release them. And I can
31:12
go over that a bit later. Yeah, no, no. Explain
31:14
that. So help me with that. So I understand orienting,
31:17
but the way you're describing brain spotting
31:19
is orienting is one of the modalities that we
31:21
can use as a resource. What else? Yeah, so. Yeah.
31:26
So just like we can activate those calming grounded
31:29
states, we call that resourcing. I like to call
31:31
it safe spotting. So the opposite of that is
31:36
looking for that activation spot. So Mitch, would
31:40
you feel comfortable if we just, I don't know,
31:43
did something for you on the spot that maybe
31:46
something is triggering or causing a bit of anxiety?
31:50
I can kind of show people how it works a little
31:53
bit. Yeah, I'll do it. Yeah. So start by telling
31:57
me something that is causing a bit of anxiety
32:01
or is then triggering for you. I mean, I think
32:05
being on an interview and not doing a lot of
32:09
preparation, not seeing each other a long time
32:11
and a little bit of uncertainty of like, where's
32:13
this thing going? As I say that, I can feel like
32:17
some heat in my body. Perfect. Where do you notice
32:20
that heat? It's kind of like coming off of me.
32:27
So it's like radiating upper body. OK. Arms,
32:31
maybe a little bit chest, upper arm. OK. Perfect.
32:35
And then how intense would you rate that uncertainty
32:39
feeling in that heat on a scale of 0 to 10? 10
32:42
feeling the most intense. I would say like a
32:46
3, 4, probably 4. Perfect. Perfect. Okay. So
32:52
I want you to start by noticing the heat in your
32:54
body, and I want you to also take a scan of your
32:59
body, and I want you to find a place in your
33:01
body that feels even 1 % more safe, grounded,
33:05
or even neutral. I'm gonna go with the ground,
33:09
my foot on the ground. Perfect. Deep breath,
33:14
as soon as I anchor into that a little bit. Excellent.
33:18
Excellent. So I'll just invite you to keep noticing
33:21
these deep breaths, feeling that grounded feeling
33:24
of your feet being on the floor. And I'll just
33:27
invite you to look from the left to the right
33:29
and just find a spot that amplifies this feeling
33:32
of groundedness. Look out my window. Perfect.
33:39
So what are you noticing in your body as you're
33:41
looking out the window? Expansiveness. Like an
33:46
opening up. With the grounding of the foot sensation,
33:52
it was like a little bit and it was just more
33:56
when I looked out the window. Beautiful. Yeah,
33:59
I noticed your chest opening up a bit more, your
34:02
spine getting a bit more straight here. So I'll
34:07
just invite you to just keep looking out the
34:08
window for about another 10 seconds here. Just
34:12
noticing what sensations come up as you look
34:14
here. I could just notice my breath a little
34:24
bit more. Mm -hmm. Feel a little bit more of
34:31
my back body online. Mm -hmm. Feel my butt in
34:35
my chair more. I can feel my, just more in my
34:39
body, my pulse. Mm -hmm. Perfect. So just noticing
34:45
that increase in body awareness here. And so
34:50
at any point, we can always come back to this
34:52
spot. So all of us invite you now to just go
34:55
back to that original heat when you thought about
34:58
that uncertainty, thinking about being on the
35:01
interview. What if I haven't planned or seen
35:04
this person in a while, this uncertainty? So
35:07
just connecting back to that heat in your upper
35:09
body here. Yeah, it's way less. I really can't
35:15
find the same heat, but I do notice like a like
35:19
a pulling in, a protective kind of posture. Yeah,
35:24
perfect. So I'll just encourage you to just notice
35:26
that pulling in and I'll just invite you to look
35:30
from the left to the right and find a spot that
35:33
amplifies this feeling. Is that good to look
35:38
out the window again? Um, I've got some little
36:01
notes here. It says like, be you. There's one
36:05
says, I believe in you and that feels good. Okay.
36:10
Yeah. My stomach, uh, settle a little bit. Yeah.
36:16
And I'll just encourage you to just find a spot
36:19
that you might notice that heat more and the
36:22
uncertainty more. Maybe looking at my notes a
36:42
little bit. Okay. What do you notice when you
36:46
look at your notes? What are you noticing in
36:48
your body here? Contraction. Okay. Where do you
36:54
feel that contraction? Arms. Just kind of want
36:58
to move forward like this. Perfect. So I'll just
37:01
encourage you to just keep looking there at that
37:04
spot and just allowing your body to do whatever
37:07
it wants to do if it wants to move forward, if
37:09
it wants to contract, just allowing it to do
37:12
that here. And just notice if any sensations,
37:16
emotions, or memories show up when you look here.
37:20
And you can feel free to share as much or as
37:23
little as feels comfortable for you. Well, it's
37:32
funny what I'm kind of connecting is the thing
37:35
that I Look that I liked is Telling me to be
37:42
myself that it feels like shit when I Overthink
37:46
or prepare or try to be perfect. And when I look
37:49
at my notes it reminds me of that Like trying
37:53
to perform Yeah, just continue being aware Like
37:59
what shows up when you're thinking I have to
38:01
perform It feels like I was gonna say shame,
38:06
but it's not shame it's more like like pressure
38:10
Mm -hmm Yeah, just continue noticing that we'll
38:16
just be here for about 30 more seconds. Yeah
38:19
Just witness whatever shows up in your body here
38:33
Makes my head hurt Mm -hmm and just noticing
38:37
that tension there Yeah, it's like a it's tight
38:42
in my chest it's And that and it feels like yeah,
38:46
it feels like weight like heavy weight Mm -hmm
38:50
Yeah, just noticing this heaviness You're doing
38:58
a great job You don't have to do anything here.
39:08
Just witnessing. And then if it feels safe, I'll
39:22
just invite you to look back outside at the window.
39:30
And just notice what happens in your body as
39:33
you look here. I can't set back and there's that
39:39
like less tension I took a deep breath I Just
39:52
want to sit back a little bit Beautiful allowing
39:57
your body to just down shifts and re -regulate
40:00
here So we'll just be here for about a minute
40:04
or so Yeah, it seems like some of that activation
40:20
is kind of moving now. Mm -hmm. Yeah, where do
40:24
you notice it moving? I feel my pulse or heart
40:28
rate kind of going up. Mm -hmm. There's like
40:35
a wave. Mm -hmm. Yeah, and just noticing this
40:39
wave with curiosity. Knowing that these sensations
40:46
could not hurt you That deep breath at work my
41:04
vision is opening up more Yeah, and by him saying
41:10
that that my vision is opening up when we are
41:13
in fighter flight our Vision literally becomes
41:16
like tunnel vision and so we begin to see less
41:19
of our peripherals So this is just showing in
41:22
real time how his nervous system is we regulating
41:29
and you can stay exactly as you are, I'll just
41:32
invite you now, this might sound like a really
41:34
weird request, I'm just gonna invite you to bring
41:37
your finger about three to six inches in front
41:39
of your face. Yeah, yeah, and I want you to just
41:44
start by looking at your fingertip for about
41:47
10 seconds here. And then now I want you to look
41:57
outside your window, looking at the peripheral.
42:00
And you can keep your finger there. So just looking
42:04
through the window, looking through the fingertip.
42:15
And now looking back at your fingertip. And now
42:28
switching back to looking at through your fingertips
42:33
through the window. Some deep breaths. Perfect.
42:46
And just one last time, looking back at your
42:49
fingertips for about 10 seconds. Perfect. And
42:59
I'll just invite you to just bring your fingertip
43:02
down. And then just looking around the room,
43:06
even just noticing one thing you didn't notice
43:08
before. I say I went to the other side of the
43:21
room, so I noticed that. Sad that I was more
43:25
focused over here when we were doing and originally
43:28
in the night I'm kind of coming over here more
43:32
and want to play I guess Perfect yeah now when
43:40
we think back to being on an interview thinking
43:45
of that uncertainty and Thinking about okay that
43:49
heat was in my upper body and your chest What
43:52
are you noticing in your body now after we did
43:55
that? I feel the cool air coming in from the
43:59
side. Beautiful. Yeah. Okay. So you don't have
44:04
heat anymore. Okay. So as I talk about that uncertainty,
44:10
how intensely would you rate that heat now on
44:14
a scale of zero to 10, 10 being the most intense?
44:19
Oh, I mean, it's zero. There's nothing there.
44:21
Okay, perfect. So that shows the power of somatics
44:26
and somatic therapy and so Like a really quick
44:31
explanation So with the finger you can do this
44:35
at any moment if you're listening You know, if
44:38
you're really really anxious Your anxiety is
44:41
really high or if you're like a therapist or
44:45
clinician or coach listening to this, you can
44:47
utilize that with clients. Like if you're running
44:50
out of time in a session and the client still
44:53
might be pretty activated and we want to bring
44:56
them down into their window of tolerance, that's
44:59
something that you can utilize. This has been
45:01
helpful for panic attacks. It is a term called
45:04
virgins. And so it's incredibly helpful for anxiety
45:09
and for panic and just re -regulating the system.
45:12
In practice, I would go back and forth between
45:16
that activation spot, feeling the heat, feeling
45:19
that uncertainty, and then also going back and
45:22
forth to that safe spot. And for Mix, that was
45:25
the window. So typically, I would be processing
45:29
with clients for about 30 to 45 minutes in a
45:31
brainstorming session. So it would be like, you
45:34
know, I would... encourage them to look at that
45:38
activation spot where they feel that uncertainty
45:42
or heat the most. Staying with that and if they
45:44
need at any point to look out the window if it
45:47
feels too much with that heat then we look at
45:50
the window or we find that or we look at that
45:52
safe spot and then we go back and forth listening
45:55
to their nervous systems. Rhythm and so you could
45:59
see how you know Mitch and I did not go into
46:02
his trauma history any memories necessarily it
46:06
was just being with the sensations and then that
46:10
activation went from a four to a zero so that
46:13
shows Physiologically how much the nervous system
46:17
can shift and change without talking at all I
46:21
like I like you say that because I feel like
46:24
a lot of people when they're coming into this
46:26
work they're nervous like I don't want to talk
46:29
about the past and they may have learned through
46:33
working with different therapists that it doesn't
46:34
feel good to go over and over and over it. Exactly
46:39
because when we're talking about our anxiety
46:42
or we're talking about our trauma our body can't
46:46
differentiate the past versus the present. So
46:49
if you're talking about your anxiety or trauma,
46:51
it's actually reliving it. And so you're actually
46:54
re -traumatizing your body by talking about it.
46:57
And so with brain spotting or somatic therapy,
47:00
we're actually closing that loop because those
47:03
sensations are happening. That racing heart,
47:06
that heat in the upper body, we're stopping.
47:10
That loop and going back to what you mentioned
47:13
earlier is, you know, when we're talking about
47:16
building our capacity. And as we're becoming
47:20
more sexually attached or healing, that doesn't
47:23
mean that we're never activated, triggered, or
47:26
anxious. It might just be that maybe we're triggered
47:29
a little bit less or we're able to go back into
47:32
our adult body and unblend from a young part
47:35
much quicker. We're able to come back much quicker.
47:40
We're able to pause instead of react. We're able
47:42
to... feel a bit less anxious. We're able to
47:47
see the bigger picture. We're able to, you know,
47:50
even just be with the sensations and that activation
47:54
or heat for much longer. And that's showing that,
47:58
you know, we're not as overwhelmed by our sensations
48:01
or anxiety. Yeah, totally. And for me, what I've
48:06
noticed over the years is that if I am, if I'm
48:08
avoiding something like a sensation or a feeling
48:12
in my body, and I'm trying to fix it, I'm trying
48:15
to figure it out even. All the old ways that
48:20
I used to associate to my body, that felt like
48:26
crap. That created so much of the thing that
48:29
I was trying to get rid of. And it's so interesting,
48:33
it feels almost like a magic trick, for those
48:36
of us that have had our hair on fire for so many
48:38
years, that you're telling me I can be with this
48:41
sensation for two or three minutes, and then
48:44
I can come down and out of it and help the sensation
48:49
that nothing else could. And it sounds like what
48:53
you're describing is also, hey, you're not going
48:58
to have to come in and talk about your past.
49:00
You're also not going to go into the deep end
49:02
of this activation, this anxiety that we're calling
49:06
it right away. And if that's the case, that's
49:10
showing us how much safety we had. how much capacity
49:13
we have and we're gonna build capacity with the
49:16
resource so that eventually through repetition,
49:20
through safety, through choice, through allowing
49:23
and being with, we build up the capacity to see
49:26
it, to uncouple, unblend. That sensation was
49:30
something that's a danger and it almost becomes
49:33
like wisdom, like no, you want this. You want
49:38
this feedback from your body because it tells
49:41
us what is safe and what is not safe. But if
49:44
we've never learned that, we got to go slow,
49:47
do little bits at a time. And eventually we can
49:51
get to that place of safety and we can trust
49:53
ourselves with and without the resource and with
49:56
and without whatever environment we're in. Absolutely.
50:01
You described it perfectly. And when we're being
50:04
with that safe spot, like I call it, like for
50:07
Mitch's example with the window, we're teaching
50:09
his body, we're teaching your body that these
50:12
sensations are safe to be with because trauma
50:15
is defined as something that's too much, too
50:17
overwhelming, too fast. So when we're bringing
50:21
in the safe spot or we're bringing in that resource,
50:23
this gives us back that agency, that trust, that
50:27
we're not stuck in this ceiling. It helps us
50:30
to build capacity to be with these sensations
50:33
and emotions and yeah exactly anything that we're
50:36
avoiding it's just showing that our nervous system
50:38
in the past didn't feel safe with it and what
50:42
we resist persists and so as we continue doing
50:46
this work you will start to begin to build your
50:49
capacity so that you're avoiding certain things
50:52
less and not to judge those parts of you that
50:56
are avoiding it because clearly It feels too
51:00
much for this young part of you. And it was too
51:02
much for you at that age. Yeah, it just seems
51:07
like, like you said earlier, something you said
51:09
that stuck out, because I heard this last week
51:11
from a friend that was talking to me about attachment.
51:14
They were like, you know, that is everywhere.
51:16
It's in everything that we do. And you've given
51:19
us some good examples. You went over avoiding
51:22
anxious back in the past, but early in the conversation.
51:26
But I'm wondering if someone is hearing this
51:29
conversation like oh man this sounds like me
51:31
what are what are some things that they can look
51:34
out for maybe we've already said it but what
51:39
things can they what guidance would you give
51:42
to someone that is like thinking maybe I'm anxious
51:45
maybe I'm avoidant and are they other attachment
51:48
styles or that the two main ones Yeah, that is
51:51
a great question. So starting with different
51:54
attachment styles, so there's four. So there's
51:56
secure attachment, which is what we're all kind
51:59
of looking toward. Then there's that avoidant
52:02
attachment, anxious attachment, and then disorganized
52:05
attachment. So disorganized attachment is kind
52:09
of like a mix of anxious and avoidant. So this
52:13
can look like longing for closeness. but also
52:18
it feels unsafe or we want to sabotage or pull
52:22
away. This is a lot of the time where those push
52:24
-pull behaviors can come from. If you had a parent
52:29
that maybe was an alcoholic or a narcissist,
52:33
maybe you were a parentified child, you had to
52:35
be a therapist for your parent, etc. What you
52:39
learned is that I am dependent on my caregiver
52:43
for my survival, but they're also the person
52:46
that I fear the most because maybe they physically
52:48
harm me or emotionally harm me or they begin
52:51
to become violent when they're drunk, et cetera.
52:55
It's like then our nervous system couples connection
52:59
with threat and danger, but also our nervous
53:03
system is wired for connection so it also longs
53:05
for it at the same time so it begins to create
53:08
this push -pull dynamic which can make it create
53:13
a lot of self -sabotaging behaviors where you
53:15
can have a safe partner, but what can end up
53:19
happening is you are fault -finding, you will
53:21
see flaws, you will push away, you will ghost
53:26
because it feels too dangerous unless you work
53:29
with those protective parts. Yeah, and then that
53:34
is those four main, those are those four attachment
53:37
styles. And then really what I would start with
53:40
going back to kind of what we said at the beginning
53:43
is no matter what your attachment style is, we
53:46
want to build internal safety because when we've
53:51
been in survival mode and our nervous system
53:53
is wired for chaos. So then what happens as we
53:56
go into our dating situations or even in our
53:59
company or in our jobs and we're recreating those
54:03
things scenarios in childhood where maybe your
54:06
boss is completely unpredictable. Maybe your
54:08
business is entirely unpredictable. Maybe your
54:12
partner is incredibly unpredictable and they
54:15
cause a lot of chaos for you. So what we want
54:19
to do is by us regulating our nervous system,
54:23
stimulating our vagus nerve, building capacity
54:26
to be with our sensations and emotions. This
54:29
helps to stabilize that baseline. So now because
54:32
my nervous system is more regulated and I'm finding
54:36
safety within myself, now I'm looking for safety
54:41
in the same way. I'm looking for that stability.
54:44
I'm not comfortable with instability or inconsistency
54:49
or relations that are not mutual or loving. So
54:54
of course, if I'm giving that safety internally,
54:56
I'm not going to chase that chaos externally.
55:00
Another thing that we didn't get to mention is
55:02
something called adult self anchoring. So we
55:05
talked a lot about on this podcast about becoming
55:09
secure within, but when we've never had a parent
55:12
or parents who were safe, who were emotionally
55:15
available, we are missing that internal parent
55:19
and we start to feel when we are triggered, we
55:21
start to feel small, we start to feel anxious,
55:25
we start to feel that we are not capable. So
55:28
what I have clients do and what I invite clients
55:31
to do is start to do thematic exercises that
55:36
in different posture shifts that physiologically
55:40
Change our nervous system state. So even like
55:43
with Mitch he was contracting and bringing in
55:46
pulling in forward when we are in shame or when
55:50
we're in younger parts our Posture can reflect
55:54
that so when we're straightening our spine We
55:57
naturally will feel more confident like we can
56:00
take up space and I will invite clients You know,
56:04
what is a memory? That has brought you to a state
56:08
of feeling proud or capable. This could be something
56:11
very small, like you doing a really hard workout
56:15
at the gym that made you feel really proud and
56:17
capable. Maybe that's you taking care of your
56:20
children. Maybe that's doing a podcast like this
56:23
one. Maybe that's hitting a certain quota, your
56:31
sales company, whatever that is that's made you
56:34
feel proud or capable. And a lot of traumatized
56:36
people, they might not have ever had a time where
56:38
they feel proud or capable. So I'll then invite
56:41
them to either imagine the steadiness from a
56:46
tree or a mountain. And so by us, imagining that
56:51
okay now I'm feeling okay what sensations are
56:54
you noticing in your body when you bring up this
56:57
calm or proud memory or when you think about
56:59
this tree or this mountain you're feeling the
57:02
steadiness you're feeling the capability you're
57:05
feeling the groundedness when you imagine this
57:07
memory or thinking of the tree or mountain and
57:10
then it's realizing hey I am NOT separate from
57:13
this mountain tree or memory I'm feeling it right
57:16
now in my body And so as we're reactivating this
57:21
memory and these sensations in our body, we are
57:24
learning and replacing that parent. So now we
57:27
are becoming that securely attached parent where
57:30
we're feeling proud and capable. So bringing
57:35
that internal safety with safe spotting and orienting,
57:40
doing vagus toning, doing adult self -anchoring,
57:42
and then somatic therapy, right? So something
57:46
new that I've also been Learning a new certification
57:49
is internal family systems, aka parts work. So
57:53
if you're overthinking, ruminating, fantasy thinking,
57:57
cognitive diffidence, you know, any type of addiction,
58:03
phone scrolling, like scrolling on your phone,
58:06
overworking, over giving, self -doubt, those
58:09
are all protector parts. And so when we can learn
58:13
somatically, what are they protecting you from
58:16
feeling? need are they meeting? And then starting
58:20
to work with that inner child and working with
58:24
ways that we can meet that need and process that
58:27
trauma that created that protector part. That's
58:29
when the protector part will start to loosen.
58:32
So that's really big. And then going into the
58:35
brain spotting or somatic therapy to heal the
58:39
origin of your attachment wounds or chronic anxiety.
58:43
or shut down responses. So that's really how
58:46
I work with clients and how I would recommend
58:49
anyone on their path to becoming more securely
58:52
attached, regardless of what your attachment
58:54
style is. I love that. And it makes so much sense
58:58
that we would want to work on safety and secure
59:02
attachment, like our attachment wounds early
59:05
on. It's going to build safety. It's going to
59:07
build capacity and saving some of the deeper
59:10
work. once that safety is established, because
59:14
if I am trying to go into this shock trauma that
59:18
I have, that's overwhelming on the past, but
59:22
I don't feel safe here to do this sensation.
59:25
When I start going up that ladder of activation
59:29
that we just saw, it takes a couple of minutes.
59:32
That's someone who's been in this for a while.
59:34
If I can't trust that wave of activation, then
59:38
I'm going to... backlog all of that momentum,
59:41
the emotions, the sensations, the activation
59:45
coming and moving. And it sounds like this is
59:47
such a ground zero and I feel like it gets missed
59:51
a lot. You know, we're given exercises and awareness
59:56
that if we're at level zero one, level three,
1:00:02
we're just, we're not there yet. But because
1:00:04
we love to learn and teach and We like to go
1:00:07
into our intellectual mind which can be a trauma
1:00:10
response as well Yes, it's that is what I was
1:00:14
doing before I had and that's where I got more
1:00:17
and more sensitized more so more fixing more
1:00:20
figuring out sending this hyper vigilance It's
1:00:25
just flooding my system and saying that the world
1:00:28
is dangerous but I've learned so much I've read
1:00:31
the books and I know I've got these traumas but
1:00:34
I haven't healed these deeper wounds and seen
1:00:38
these survival patterns and as we start to do
1:00:42
that kind of like we highlighted with relationship
1:00:45
is we start to really recognize our own internal
1:00:50
impulse instead of looking for it for the external
1:00:54
like this world of this identity that we've created
1:00:58
around our survival responses. So that's kind
1:01:00
of a motherfucker, if you will, when you get
1:01:03
into this work to go, man, reality is not what
1:01:06
I thought it was. I always say this work is the
1:01:09
ultimate red pill. You see yourself, you see
1:01:12
family, you see society, and you go, wait, wait,
1:01:15
wait a minute. And then when we create safety,
1:01:18
we start to make our own choices of what this
1:01:21
is what I'm resonating with. And it can blow
1:01:23
this whole situation up, too. And that's kind
1:01:26
of what we want. I mean, it's kind of what...
1:01:29
Yes. Yes. And that is some hard pills to swallow
1:01:34
and witness. When you're like, holy shit, my
1:01:38
personality is a collection of trauma responses
1:01:41
and protector parts. Like, whoa, that is not
1:01:44
me. Like, holy hell, what an identity crisis
1:01:47
it will feel like and how scary and destabilizing
1:01:52
that feels. And also like going back to what
1:01:55
you mentioned, a lot of people are misinformed,
1:01:59
not tele -informed or synetically trained. So
1:02:01
they don't teach those foundational levels. And
1:02:04
a lot of clients will come to me saying, I've
1:02:07
done EMDR and I actually felt worse. Or I've
1:02:09
done brain spotting and I saw worse because the
1:02:12
therapist did not teach them how to self -soothe.
1:02:15
how to feel safe with sensation and how to actually
1:02:18
feel safe in our body. And so I work with nervous
1:02:21
system regulation and somatic tools first to
1:02:25
help us even feel safe to go into that. We need
1:02:29
to actually feel safe before we can go into those
1:02:33
wounds and traumas. We need to be able to self
1:02:36
-soothe when we're in the brain -spotting or
1:02:38
EMDR sessions or else again, We will be retraumatized
1:02:42
and something else that I want to mention that's
1:02:45
really foundational if you're listening to this.
1:02:48
We experienced trauma and CPTSD and an anxious
1:02:54
attachment style because we have been wounded
1:02:57
or traumatized. by our closest caregivers or
1:03:01
relationships. So if we're traumatized in relationships,
1:03:04
we also heal in relationships as well. And so
1:03:08
a lot of people want to skip that step. And even
1:03:12
I was listening to a meditation yesterday and
1:03:14
I got like slightly angry because they were saying
1:03:19
like, even if people leave, I am safe, which
1:03:23
in fact, like we want to get to that place. But
1:03:26
if you've never experienced external safety,
1:03:30
you've never had a safe relationship or friendship
1:03:34
or whatever, then we have not cultivated that
1:03:38
internally. Like our self -esteem and our sense
1:03:41
of safety is determined by our cultural relationships
1:03:44
as a child. And so what we need to start to do
1:03:48
is we need to do the internal work to feel internally
1:03:51
safe and learn how to self -regulate. And we
1:03:54
need those just confirming experiences with other.
1:03:58
This can start with a coach, a therapist, a group
1:04:02
container, somatic practitioner, or a safe friend,
1:04:05
right? Because we need to have that modeled of
1:04:09
I can be seen, I can be held. people can come
1:04:12
back, people can repair with me, and I'm still
1:04:15
okay. We need disconfirming experiences that
1:04:18
show us we're not in the past anymore. That's
1:04:21
going to ultimately also heal your attachment
1:04:24
system. So we can't heal in isolation or in a
1:04:29
vacuum. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news.
1:04:32
That means that we have to do some of that work
1:04:35
to make ourselves a safe partner. Obviously,
1:04:39
There are so many nuances to this with clients
1:04:42
of mine who've been stuck in trauma bonds or
1:04:45
toxic relationships. I will encourage clients
1:04:48
to pause on dating for at least six months, maybe
1:04:51
longer, if they've been in chronic back to back
1:04:55
relationships with toxic partners or trauma bonds,
1:04:59
because we need to heal those original wounds
1:05:01
because our nervous system is raw and we are
1:05:04
in a vulnerable state. We don't want to go back.
1:05:06
into dating yet, but we still want safe other
1:05:10
to stow our nervous system a new experience.
1:05:14
So what are your thoughts on that Mitch? I love
1:05:20
it. And I guess first off of that is like contrast,
1:05:24
right? I think that contrast is so important.
1:05:28
You know, and think about it like, if we're talking
1:05:30
about contrast, That means I'm feeling. That
1:05:33
means I'm feeling my natural impulse. And I'm
1:05:36
also noticing my own patterns that I've built
1:05:39
through awareness and education and I've built
1:05:42
capacity to be with. And it's like that, thank
1:05:46
God for that yuck sensation, right? We want that.
1:05:51
And we're probably coming from a place where
1:05:54
I didn't feel anything, right? It can be, we
1:05:57
have to titrate the good feelings just like we
1:06:00
have to titrate. the old awareness of what doesn't
1:06:04
feel good. I remember working with a therapist
1:06:08
and going, man, I'm crying. Or I'm describing
1:06:14
an experience where I was crying, but I wasn't
1:06:16
sad. And it's like, man, could that be joy? And
1:06:22
it's like, oh wow, I got to experience that too.
1:06:25
And then I love that you're bringing in healing
1:06:28
in relationship, absolutely. And how If we haven't
1:06:32
had safety, we haven't had secure attachment,
1:06:35
and we see the examples that you've been giving
1:06:38
us and thinking, man, this is really... Well,
1:06:41
what does that look like when we heal these attachment
1:06:45
wounds and we go back into environments? I don't
1:06:48
even know about environments, but yeah, with
1:06:51
our caregivers that we didn't have that secure
1:06:53
attachment with? Because you mentioned before
1:06:55
we were getting on, your family and how... It's
1:07:00
really easy or it's a lot easier than it's been
1:07:02
because of the work you've done What's it look
1:07:04
like when that heals? Yeah, so I'll give like
1:07:08
two different examples. So A few years ago when
1:07:12
I was like really deep into the work, you know,
1:07:15
my father is a narcissist. I'm pretty open about
1:07:18
that on my podcast on different podcasts I guest
1:07:20
on. And so obviously we've had a strained relationship.
1:07:24
And when I was really starting to dive deeper
1:07:26
into my healing, we went no contact for about
1:07:29
a year and a half. And then my grandfather passed
1:07:32
away. And so I, of course, was going to the funeral
1:07:37
and I saw my father and I wasn't actually triggered
1:07:39
at all. at the time because I was intentionally
1:07:42
working on healing those wounds and my trauma.
1:07:47
And so, you know, I can also see him with a lot
1:07:51
of compassion now where before that was not even
1:07:54
possible. And I just see this man is just a ball
1:07:58
of stress, a ball of dysregulation, a ball of
1:08:01
nervous system responses that he's just inflamed
1:08:07
and dysregulated. And I don't take his words
1:08:13
as seriously. And yeah, like yesterday I was
1:08:16
slightly triggered by him, but then now like
1:08:19
I feel fine about it. And it's just kind of like,
1:08:22
all right, like we're, you know, I might be triggered,
1:08:25
but that doesn't mean I will stay triggered for
1:08:28
days and days and days or weeks or years, right?
1:08:32
As some people can be. As you heal your trauma,
1:08:36
that does not mean that you're never going to
1:08:38
be triggered. it will take you less time to go
1:08:43
from being in your young, triggered part to going
1:08:46
back into and feeling into your secure adult
1:08:49
body. Yeah, I mean, what you're talking about
1:08:52
is having flexibility and regulation. This regulation
1:08:56
is stuck. And for, it sounds like what both of
1:09:01
us experienced, that's chronic symptoms all the
1:09:03
time, right? I don't know how to be with this.
1:09:05
I don't know what I used to say. you know, my
1:09:08
hair's on fire and I don't know what that means.
1:09:11
Now I got a catalog of what that means, right?
1:09:13
Like I have a lot of awareness. And do I still
1:09:16
get triggered? Yeah, I got triggered coming on
1:09:18
podcasts. That happens all the time. And as we
1:09:22
see in a couple of minutes of being with myself
1:09:25
and orienting, and I love this word, safety spotting,
1:09:29
you can see that come down. And where's that
1:09:32
heat now? It's not here. And I'll also share...
1:09:35
I really appreciate you talking about your family
1:09:37
because I have the same exact situation. I have
1:09:40
emotionally immature and narcissists all in my
1:09:43
family and I've been no contact for a while and
1:09:46
it's really encouraging to hear that being in
1:09:51
a relationship is possible again and that we
1:09:54
don't have to be as triggered and we can basically
1:09:57
take the things that I've been learning the last
1:09:58
couple of years and eventually apply that to
1:10:01
my family. I think they say family is the last
1:10:04
frontier. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know,
1:10:09
everyone is different. And I also I was sharing
1:10:11
with Mitch before we hopped on the podcast. You
1:10:14
know, I was a digital nomad for seven months
1:10:16
and traveling and I visited my family and took
1:10:19
a few weeks to come back to Ohio. And then I'm
1:10:21
going to go back to Mexico, yada yada. But I
1:10:27
wasn't really talking to my dad very much. You
1:10:30
know, when I was traveling and abroad. And so,
1:10:34
you know, it doesn't have to be all or nothing
1:10:37
and everyone's situation is completely different.
1:10:40
You can still be no contact with someone even
1:10:43
if you're quote unquote like healing. Like it
1:10:45
is okay if you never have contact again, you
1:10:50
know, with your abusive ex or your parent or
1:10:54
parents. Like each situation is completely different
1:10:57
and there's nuance to everything. And what might
1:11:00
work for me? might not work for you and your
1:11:04
specific circumstance or situation. And there's
1:11:08
this, the question I had next, I'm kind of going
1:11:10
to give a little bit of context. I hear this
1:11:12
question with a lot of different things, right?
1:11:15
Things that maybe are our crutches. Kind of like,
1:11:21
let's say medication. I've been on medication
1:11:23
before. It sounds like you were at one time.
1:11:25
And people will say like, you know, we want to
1:11:28
shame and blame the medication that's actually
1:11:29
helping us. And what I typically find is that
1:11:34
it just kind of falls away. You know, we just
1:11:38
get to a place, we notice the contrast, you know,
1:11:41
I don't need this thing anymore. I'm going to
1:11:43
see what it's like to not have that. Maybe there's
1:11:47
symptoms at first. Eventually, like, oh man,
1:11:50
I got enough information here to tell me that
1:11:52
I'm good without it. And I'm wondering, how does
1:11:56
someone who's no contact know when it's a good
1:12:00
time to be back in contact if that's something
1:12:03
that they're interested in. Oh, what a great
1:12:06
question. I think there's no black and white
1:12:10
answer here. I think that everything is circumstantial.
1:12:16
I think... if you talk to them and they don't
1:12:19
fully, fully activate you, or you can be in the
1:12:23
same room with them. And maybe it doesn't mean
1:12:25
living with them again or having the same type
1:12:29
of relationship that you had with them at one
1:12:31
point. Maybe you go from being no contact and
1:12:35
then maybe you talk to them for 30 minutes once
1:12:38
a week or once a month. And that's what your
1:12:41
system can tolerate. I would say, yes, I would
1:12:44
say if you feel indifferent, towards them, if
1:12:48
there's no emotional charge, then that could
1:12:50
be a time where you could explore reversing no
1:12:55
contact. But like for exes or like certain situations,
1:12:59
I think sometimes it's better to keep that closed.
1:13:02
And this is like, I'm also very privileged in
1:13:06
this scenario where I've not had children with
1:13:09
any of my exes. So sometimes no contact is not
1:13:13
plausible or possible for parents, for example.
1:13:16
But you know, like for me, I don't find that
1:13:20
to be helpful to be in contact with any of my
1:13:22
exes. I don't really believe that you can really
1:13:26
be friends with an ex, you know, to certain things.
1:13:32
I mean, maybe you can, but it just it makes things
1:13:35
complicated. I'm going on a different rant. But
1:13:39
yeah, there is just it's a lot of nuance here
1:13:42
with reentering no contact. I just would need
1:13:46
to know also a little bit more about the person,
1:13:49
their situation, what their relationship with
1:13:51
this person is like. So, yeah. As you describe
1:13:56
that, I agree with you. I love the titrating
1:13:58
part. And I think in this work, what I have learned
1:14:02
is that my previous, what I would call that,
1:14:10
like a weakness, My sensitivity is my strength
1:14:13
now. And I'm starting to see that very clearly
1:14:17
in the work that I do. And what I know about
1:14:19
me, and this is me, and of course everybody is
1:14:21
different under circumstances and nuance and
1:14:24
like you mentioned. But what I know is my body
1:14:26
will let me know. And when I'm talking about
1:14:30
my family or having a conversation with them,
1:14:34
that's what we have on board eventually is we
1:14:37
have this. It does feel like magic trick sometimes
1:14:42
now that just it's letting us know and that feeling
1:14:46
is everything if I can sit with that I can process
1:14:48
that that's gonna let me know more than me trying
1:14:52
to get some type of and and disconnecting from
1:14:56
my body to go into my head to create some it's
1:14:59
got to be now or putting pressure on myself it's
1:15:02
got to be like like Val was saying on the podcast.
1:15:06
That's going right back into our pattern. We
1:15:09
become the medicine and the healing is ours when
1:15:11
we can listen to that and respond from that instead
1:15:16
of looking for the answers out here. Absolutely.
1:15:21
You nailed it on the head 100%. Awesome. Well,
1:15:25
Val, this has been a great catch up conversation.
1:15:30
I'm sure we could keep going, but before we wrap,
1:15:34
I wanted to give you an opportunity to promote
1:15:36
yourself. I imagine people are listening to this.
1:15:39
They're like, man, I want to check out safety
1:15:41
spotting. I'm interested in this somatic therapy
1:15:43
and man, I think I have these different attachments.
1:15:46
I want to learn more about that. If somebody
1:15:49
wants to work with you, where do they find you
1:15:51
and what would that look like? Yeah. Thank you,
1:15:55
Mitch. A great place to start where I've included
1:15:58
basically everything that we talked about of,
1:16:02
you know, like adult self anchoring, getting
1:16:05
into our adult body, somatic therapy, and a tool
1:16:10
that I use for building that safety in our body
1:16:13
is EFC tapping. So I have a free masterclass.
1:16:19
all about breaking your attraction to emotionally
1:16:22
unavailable partners. There is adult self anchoring
1:16:25
in there. There is brain spotting to break the
1:16:28
pole and to break that pole toward these emotionally
1:16:33
unavailable partners that it bypasses this part
1:16:35
of you that quote unquote knows better, but is
1:16:38
going back to these types of relationships. And
1:16:42
then we also work on EFC tapping to heal and
1:16:47
make the fear of abandonment smaller. And so
1:16:50
we can recurrent this young part of us. So it
1:16:53
really encompasses everything. So it's a great
1:16:56
place to start. And then also my podcast, I really
1:17:00
recommend it's called the anxiety recovery podcast
1:17:04
on Spotify, Apple podcasts, all the places you
1:17:08
get your podcasts. And then also like my Instagram,
1:17:12
it's heal with Val, H -E -A -L with V -A -L.
1:17:17
And I'm sure Mitchell put these in the show notes.
1:17:19
I'll make sure to send him all the links and
1:17:22
yeah. I love that. It sounds very thorough. I
1:17:25
have to tell a little story on tapping. Another
1:17:30
blast from the past. My first experience with
1:17:35
someone in the mind body space was a yoga teacher
1:17:38
who was doing tapping. And I remember thinking,
1:17:43
number one, what is this tapping stuff? Give
1:17:45
me a Xanax. Because I said that, I feel like
1:17:52
the need to promote it as well because I think
1:17:54
it is powerful. It ultimately taught me how to
1:17:58
slow down and tap these different points of my
1:18:01
body when my body felt on fire and I had no reference
1:18:05
point whatsoever what was going on in a couple
1:18:08
of sessions. I was able to slow that down and
1:18:11
be like, oh, this is grief. This is anger. That's
1:18:15
how I learned to name emotions with starting
1:18:18
that. And it's like, it's one of those modalities
1:18:21
that if not used correctly, you know, done without
1:18:24
awareness, we can just poo poo it really quick.
1:18:27
And I just want to say some of these tools when
1:18:29
you use intentionally for the purpose that you're
1:18:32
using them for are fantastic. Absolutely. Yeah,
1:18:37
absolutely. Especially if you're like high on
1:18:40
activation, like if you're at a, you know, seven
1:18:42
out of 10 in anxiety or like you'll feel like
1:18:45
your body is on fire. Like I think EFT tapping
1:18:47
can kind of bring down that volume and help you
1:18:50
to build capacity to be with those sensations.
1:18:53
And it like, it's like, Anxiety is the stuck
1:18:56
energy and emotion that like wants to move. So
1:19:00
by tapping, we're really like moving that stuck
1:19:02
stagnant energy. So I love EFT tapping. I think
1:19:06
it's fantastic and fabulous. I also have a free
1:19:09
resource. I don't want to like overwhelm everyone.
1:19:12
It's also in the master class. But if you just
1:19:16
want the EFT, I have a specific EFT tapping for
1:19:19
the fear of abandonment and reparenting your
1:19:22
inner child. So that's a fantastic. resource
1:19:25
as well. Beautiful. Yeah, thank you so much for
1:19:28
sharing all that. We'll definitely be sure to
1:19:30
put that in all the show notes. Val, thank you
1:19:32
so much for coming on. It's been great catching
1:19:35
up with you. Love what you're up to and teaching
1:19:37
us all that. Spend a little time helping me with
1:19:40
my activation today. That was nice. And thanks
1:19:44
to everybody who's been following along. This
1:19:46
is the Rooted Conversations podcast. If you like
1:19:48
the conversation, share it with someone, give
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us a like, give us a comment. Leave us a question
1:19:53
below, we love those, and until next time!