Latest / Friendship IRL: Real Talk About Friendship, Community, and What It Actually Takes / Neurodivergent Friendships: Self-Advocating, Masking, and Reframing Friendship as a Skill with Caroline Maguire

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Neurodivergent Friendships: Self-Advocating, Masking, and Reframing Friendship as a Skill with Caroline Maguire · Friendship IRL: Real Talk About Friendship, Community, and What It Actually Takes

• 0:00
  Alex Alexander: All right, gang.
• 0:03
  Alex Alexander: Here's to nights that turn into mornings and friends that turn into family. Cheers. Hello, hello, and welcome to the Friendship IRL podcast. I'm your host, Alex Alexander. Each week we talk about what is working(and what is not) in our friendships, community and connections. Have you ever wished you could sit down and have a conversation about what is really going on in your friendships? Well, you found your people. Join us as we dive into real life stories and explore new ways to approach these connections. Together, we're reimagining the rules of friendship
• 0:57
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Here's something I think about a lot, the way that being neurodivergent impacts your friendships, positively and negatively, are so nuanced and so different for every single person. Right? I talk about being neurodivergent on this podcast, but I don't really struggle that much with rejection sensitivity, dysphoria. I've also never felt like I have a problem with social cues. But there are things that have impacted my friendships, my communication style, time blindness, executive functioning, object impermanence, all of those, for sure, have caused an impact here and there, and there are probably some other things I just haven't fully even connected yet, but that's kind of the point. It is so different for every single person. So when I think about the idea of writing a book that is like a friendship manual for neurodivergent people, that's a little mind bending to me to be honest with you, because how do you encapsulate all the beauty and diversity of our brains into one book. Where do you start?
• 2:05
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: How do you make sure that someone else feels seen without flattening everything into one neurodivergent experience that doesn't actually fit most people, that feels like an overwhelming task to me, one I will not be tackling. But the joy of the world is that what feels like an overwhelming task to me is exactly the task that someone else is meant to tackle.
• 2:29
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: And today we have that someone here on the podcast, my guest is Caroline Maguire. She is an internationally recognized expert in social emotional learning, ADHD coaching and relationship development. She is the author of the award-winning book, Why Will No One Play with Me? And her brand new book, which just came out last week, Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults. She also hosts The ADHD Social Playbook podcast, and as someone who is neurodivergent herself with ADHD, dyslexia and learning disabilities, she brings both the professional expertise and the lived experience to everything she does. For all of my neurodivergent listeners, I hope that this episode makes you feel seen and inspires you to pick up Caroline's new book and maybe reframe some of the ways that you are approaching your friendships to feel like it's more possible. That's my goal for you and for all my neurotypical friends out there, this episode is for you too.
• 3:34
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Don't hit skip, because it never hurts to understand how your friends brains work and what they might be experiencing. So with that, let's get into it.
• 3:44
  Alex Alexander: Caroline, thank you so much for being here now that I've just gone on and on and on before I hit record about how much I love your new book coming out, friendship skills for neurodivergent adults.
• 3:59
  Caroline Maguire: I'm so happy.
• 4:01
  Caroline Maguire: You love it, and I'm so happy to be here since I've watched, like, every podcast you've ever done today, and I just, I'm so happy that we have this platform to talk about friendship, because it's so important, and it's like the forgotten piece of life sometimes,
• 4:19
  Alex Alexander: oh yeah, we can prioritize all sorts of other things, especially in a world that, like, tells us to prioritize other things, and then friendship kind of, I think, slots in there at the bottom. Kind of gets forgotten for a lot of people, Till one day you wake up and you're just like, oh my gosh, where are my friends? Like, I'm lonely. I want this to look different at the end of the day, I want it to look different than it does,
• 4:43
  Caroline Maguire: and it's so possible for anyone listening who is struggling with friendship, it is so possible for it to look different. I have clients who are in their 60s. I have clients who are young. I have clients of all ages. And life can change. Life has changed for me. My life is not the same life that I started out with in terms of friendship and in terms of the people who understand me and like me for me, and not a person who tries to fit in and be everything they want me to be.
• 5:17
  Alex Alexander: So I mean, maybe we go there for a second. What was your previous experience of friendship? Did you feel like it was possible, like it was easy, like it was hard, like you had been burned so many times?
• 5:31
  Caroline Maguire: I am a cynic, really, like, I kind of come across as, like, this hopeful, happy person, and I am, but I am also a cynic in terms of, I talk about this in the book, like, I know, and I'm aware that 14 year old Caroline, who was left out a lot and was bullied pretty badly, I know sometimes she steps in and says, like, Hmm, I'm highly cynical of you, and I've been burned so many times.
• 5:55
  Caroline Maguire: And like, she just, you know, I have to sometimes, like, I have a whole exercise on, sort of like, writing a letter and and, you know, healing that self, because she can take charge and be like, they seem nice, but really they're gonna dump you, you know, like she's, she's cynical, but yeah, my early life was really hard. I was bullied.
• 6:15
  Caroline Maguire: I was in a very, very small school, so I was never able to escape my bullies. So I was just like, with them omnipresent. My parents are boomers, and they are good parents, but they really didn't get it. So there was just no, like, removing me from the situation. Like, I think if I was dealing with what I was dealing with now, I'd be like, and we're just leaving schools. Yeah, we're moving schools. But that wasn't the case. It was very physical. It was very emotional. I don't know where the adults were, by the way. Like, I tell my kids stories, and they're like, weren't there people on the playground? I'm like, I don't know. And it only really started to get better in later middle school for me. And then it's been, like, this journey, this evolution.
• 7:04
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: I was thinking yesterday about my, like, childhood friendship experiences, because I have been reading your book, and so I was trying to decide, like, have I always been like, I'm a pretty positive glass half full about friendship now, but have I always been that way? And similarly, I think middle school is kind of when I have, like memories of friendship, really feeling fulfilling, like I had friends when I was in elementary school, I did not have the same bullying experience you did. I'm glad. I mean, I want to give little Caroline a hug so I hear that, and I I kind of made a laughing noise, but I also am like, where were the adults?
• 7:53
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Where were they? I don't know.
• 7:54
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Like, the time we grew up in was so different than what kids grow up in now.
• 7:58
  Caroline Maguire: I don't even remember anyone ever intervening? Like, I'm not kidding. I'm not saying that to be hyperbolic. I remember things happening that are bananas and like, I don't remember any adults around at all.
• 8:14
  Alex Alexander: This is a slight tangent, but we're both, you know, nd funsies. You'll love this. I was watching a YouTube short this morning, and I think this sums up our childhood.
• 8:24
  Alex Alexander: Somebody was talking about, like, do you remember what you did in spring break? Because I didn't go on trips, I didn't have a full day schedule, like it was kind of, you know, go outside and play watch TV. Keep to yourselves. Don't get in trouble. There just weren't as many adults everywhere, I think, in all the all the places
• 8:44
  Caroline Maguire: we didn't Well, and also, I have much more opportunity as an adult professional that's made this career and with a spouse who's very successful, I didn't have that in childhood, like I It was not that economic situation. So we didn't go anywhere, like we didn't go anywhere. And I had friends in my neighborhood, but they were, like, always kind of picking on me. So I'm totally non athletic. Like, full disclosure to the audience, I could not catch a ball. The one time I hit a ball with a bat. I actually dropped and threw the bat and hit my gym teacher in the face with the bat. So I also was like, I was, I was like, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, like, I would have these things happen to me that were like, so bizarre. Like, my dad was like, how did you hit the teacher with the bat in the face? Like, how did this happen to you? And so I was just so, like, everything was outdoor games, and I was just so awkward, and I couldn't catch a ball, and we didn't know then, like, Oh, you're dyslexic, and you probably have this, and you probably need occupational therapy. And, like, the reason you can't, I mean, we just didn't exist. So do. This day too. By the way, I don't make friendships around sports, which a lot of people do, and good for them. I love that for them. But like, if someone was like, Do you want to go kayaking? I'm like, I probably fall on the river and, like, end up beneath the kayak. Like, no,
• 10:17
  Alex Alexander: yeah, I get that. I have a lot of friends who go do sporty activities without me, I'm just like, we got to find different interests, to spend time together around because kayaking is fine for me.
• 10:28
  Alex Alexander: But if you want me to hit anything, catch anything, throw anything, it's not going to be pretty. You don't want me there.
• 10:36
  Caroline Maguire: You don't want me like, Don't put me on your bowling team. I'm terrible, but I will come cheer you on.
• 10:41
  Alex Alexander: Yes. So if we feel like middle school was maybe the first kind of more positive memories, you know you and I agree on something very foundational, which is that friendship is a skill, and that anybody can establish that skill at any time. Do you think that maybe middle school was like the beginning of when you started establishing that skill? Do you think it happened later?
• 11:09
  Caroline Maguire: Yeah, so I had this teacher who was really kind to me, and she had these like little therapy groups in eighth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade, and she would have all of us come to do these little therapy groups, and then she would have me come meet with her, and it was just to chat.
• 11:28
  Caroline Maguire: She always had food in her office. She was, like, one of those super great teachers. And she started basically talking to me about, like, it's a skill, and she was so non shaming, like, so wonderful, just like, you know, really aberrant to for our era. And really started saying to me things like, Caroline, you're so curious, like, you can make conversation with people. And without saying, like you're an old soul, and you talk like you're 100 years old.
• 12:01
  Caroline Maguire: She was like, what if you like, listen to music that kids listen to? Like, I just I'm an only child, too. Every afternoon I spent with my grandparents, I had no ability to connect with kids my age, and then I was like, awkward and said stupid things and whatever. So she was so kind, and that's really when I started realizing, like, this is a skill, and I think that really is part of why I talk about this at the beginning of Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults, because I was like, people think that everybody just has this, and it just magically appears it grows, you know? And I just don't think that's true. I think also, there's 1000s of self help books published. So people are reading these books to get better at stuff, which means even typical people are reading, you know, and trying to improve and trying to build a skill.
• 12:55
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: You know, I've talked about this on the podcast before that. I grew up with a very terrible family of origin situation. And I think I realized at a pretty young, like, probably middle school age, that if I wanted support, I was gonna have to build it for myself. And when you're desperate, you will take a lot of risks, you will try a lot of things that other people aren't doing. You know, I had no reason not to put in the reps and to try new things, and so I think I, like, slowly developed this skill over time, quite frankly, because I was just so desperate
• 13:35
  Caroline Maguire: same I just wanted to be left, like, I just wanted them to not bully me, right? Like I just wanted friends so that it would end so same and that support piece. I just want to say this, for anyone who's on a journey, it's so important. I don't care if it's an online support group, I don't care if it's a therapist or a coach or a community. You have to have a system of support. It's so important. And I am such a believer in having that place where you can go and you can talk about these things, because otherwise you just feel so alone.
• 14:13
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, deeply alone, like deeply, to the point of, I actually just did an episode on this kind of talking about, you know, like if you get to that place where you feel that alone, it's just this, like omnipresent sense of panic almost all the time. You can feel it in your bones, and you might try and shove those feelings down or ignore them, but at a certain point it really builds up in there. Like you don't want to be bullied anymore. I didn't want to feel like I had no one to call when things were bad, and you could feel that as you move through your day. So I don't recommend that anybody does what we did and builds from like, rock bottom. I say this, you know.
• 15:00
  Alex Alexander: Build from wherever you are right now. Do it before you need it.
• 15:04
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: If you are someone who is feeling that rock bottom, desperate feeling right now, first of all, hi. I am here. You can always message me. I know I joke about how my DMs are kind of a confessional, but honestly, it is true, and sometimes it's easier to tell someone that you don't really know very well. I am happy to hold space for that.
• 15:28
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Shoot me a message. Seriously.
• 15:30
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: I'm happy, and I do respond to all of you, but I also want to tell you that there are other resources. I am so happy that you found this podcast. You are not alone. And I'm not just saying that Friendship IRL is full of episodes of people who felt really lost when it came to their next move in the world of connection. So you can go scroll back through pretty much any episode in this back catalog and find one that probably has somebody who felt alone, lost, confused, like they didn't have a lot of hope. But I want to send you to two specific episodes as a starting place.
• 16:16
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: The first one is Episode 170 I don't have any friends help.
• 16:21
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: This one is really all about reframing what counts as a worthy connection in your life.
• 16:25
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Because I firmly believe, especially if you are at rock bottom, that looking around in your world and realizing that you even have a few simple connections, it really helps when you're in that desperate place. Now, the second episode I want to send you to listen to is Episode 36 how to feel very not alone. This one's an interesting one. I recorded this one on a birthday of mine that I literally spent by myself, and I cried all day, not because of how alone I felt, but actually quite the opposite, because I can see all these tiny moments of connection that feel meaningful to me. So go listen, and then I'll give you maybe a new understanding.
• 17:18
  Caroline Maguire: That's the thing that is little Caroline to today, I'm super authentic. I think that was the thing. I was so authentic as a little kid.
• 17:26
  Caroline Maguire: Like I think I was I was too blunt for sure,
• 17:29
  Alex Alexander: same. I was told I was too much all the time. I was too blunt.
• 17:33
  Caroline Maguire: And I really am a reformed blunt person. So when I meet blunt people, I really do understand them, because there is always a part of me that's like, can we just, like, skip all this political stuff and, like, jump to whatever. But I think also I was, like, really authentic, and I think that's not what everybody is. And so when you're like, really authentic and transparent, I think it's just not with a lot of social norms, especially in our generation,
• 18:02
  Alex Alexander: yeah, I mean, okay, so that opens up something that was so I've never heard anybody talk about this before, but when I was reading your book, I was just like, whoa, can we kind of dive into this idea?
• 18:15
  Alex Alexander: Maybe we start with masking. Can we talk about masking and how you define masking in the book.
• 18:22
  Caroline Maguire: So masking is this idea of suppressing your neurodivergent traits and basically camouflaging them, and kind of becoming a little bit of a shape shifter, where you adapt to the environment, but to the point where you're not saying, I don't really like vanilla ice cream. You're like going along.
• 18:41
  Caroline Maguire: It's really, really a lot of people pleasing, but what ends up happening with masking is, if people mask a lot, they end up losing themselves, and so they really don't know what they like. And I totally am saying this from a place of compassion.
• 18:58
  Caroline Maguire: I get how it happens. It's a spectrum, too. There's people who mask a little bit, there's people who mask a lot. We all wear a mask. Sometimes. I was a thespian, so I think I was a theater kid, so I think that my mask was playing different roles. Like I really didn't even think about it, until the past sort of 10 years, where it really came to light that ADHD autistic folks do this. And I think a lot of people do this. I think people do this because they can't survive in a certain environment, and so they have to pretend in order to survive, and they fall into it.
• 19:35
  Alex Alexander: Yeah. I mean, you have an entire list, like a table in your book where you talk about kind of like ways that people are masking to the point of, you know, changing how you dress every day. Maybe you're a more creative dresser and you really, like, tone it down. That's one when I was reading your list where I was like, Oh, I feel, I feel a little. Called out because I feel like, you know, I was saying, I always felt like I was too much, I was too direct, I was too blunt. I was, like, the class president in elementary school, like I was just kind of a lot in a lot of places. And as a kid, I kept being told, you know, like, give the other kids a chance, do this, do that. So in certain places, I really tried to make myself smaller, and one of them was kind of denying any creativity I had, like I used to tell people, I'm not creative, which is now comical, but I think I really didn't want to admit how creative I actually was. I didn't want to show that off, because, quite frankly, now that I am showing it off as an adult, now that I'm allowing that, I do get a lot of commentary. I get a lot of like, oh, well, aren't you just good at everything? And it's, you know, but I suppressed it for so long,
• 20:57
  Caroline Maguire: yeah. I mean, I get commentary too, because I'm very put together. And so I get a lot of people saying, is that your mask? And I'm like, No, this is actually my authentic self. My parents are more, like, a little bit more hippie esque, my mom. And so I wasn't allowed to wear, like, makeup, I wasn't allowed to wear jeans, I wasn't allowed to wear certain things. And I love clothes, and I love fashion, and I love all that stuff, and I always did, even as, like a little kid. And so I feel like this is me unmasked, me wearing, like, lots of clothes, and being kind of a clothes horse, like, that's who I am. Like, that's the true Caroline. And so I think it's hard, because we all need to be kinder to each other, like, if someone is masking too, they're doing it to survive, and because they have for so long, and it's a journey to unmask. It is not I think social media has been so good for neurodivergent people, in the sense that we find each other there. But the one thing I want to say is sometimes people present things as an oversimplification. And unmasking is not simple. This journey is not simple. And so if you're struggling and you need to make micro steps, like, that's what you need to do. And you know, it's so easier said than done, but like, Don't let anyone shame you about that, because maybe they just don't understand.
• 22:20
  Alex Alexander: I mean, in the book, you talk about how masking is a spectrum, and you actually have an exercise for how to kind of look at maybe that creativity example I gave, and where, you know, I don't have to, like, fully unmask, per se. Where did I unmask a little bit, here and there and giving myself credit for, like, the little things. I loved that exercise. I've not seen anything like that.
• 22:46
  Caroline Maguire: Thank you. I love to invent things. That's where I'm creative, and I I really can't stop inventing.
• 22:52
  Caroline Maguire: Like, I've actually created a whole unmasking program since I finished the book. It's like, I'm out of control. And I once had someone say, like, you just need to stop creating stuff. And I was like, I can't really, like, it comes to me and I just start writing it down. And the creative thing, like, it's so interesting, because creativity is such a gift, and not everyone has it. But I think what tends to happen is people used to give us friendship advice that was very broad and very unhelpful.
• 23:22
  Caroline Maguire: Be Less, be more, be quieter.
• 23:25
  Caroline Maguire: You know, you don't always have to be the center of attention.
• 23:28
  Caroline Maguire: And they said these little phrases, but they didn't tell us, like, What do you mean by that? What am I supposed to do with that? And I think that's a really big part of what I wanted to talk about in Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults, like I wanted to talk about this idea that, like a you don't have to take any of that advice, because some of it was just like misguided and two, we have to find ourselves in order to then find our people.
• 23:56
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Yes, and you're not going to find yourself immediately. It's like peeling back the layers of an onion, almost, is kind of how I talk about it with my really good friends. So people who listen to the podcast, maybe they've listened to the episodes where I've talked about this, I don't know, but I am a late diagnosed ADHD, so I found out at 30, and at that point I had some, like, very, very established friendships where I think sometimes I was really comfortable with them, and I would let my guard down. But like, let's say we were in a group setting, maybe I was masking more. You know, again, it's no all or nothing situation. There were moments where my friends saw things, and when I got diagnosed, I think suddenly certain places where I really was masking a lot, I started to calculate, as you talk about in the book, like, Do I even want to mask here? Do I want to do this anymore? I can choose to do that. Maybe that works. Works in this setting.
• 25:01
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: But I am now six years into my diagnosis, and even last week, one of my oldest friends looked at me and she goes another layer of the onion, because that's how we talk about it. Because something that I had just been doing for a really long time, I kind of was like, well, here you go. You get to see this side of me now, and she now finds it like fascinating to see the layers of the onion get unpeeled a little bit. And that's just like how we refer to it. Now, mind you, another thing for people to know, she's neurotypical.
• 26:45
  Caroline Maguire: Well, I'm glad you brought that up, though, because so I talk about this in the book. There's this misnomer.
• 26:50
  Caroline Maguire: As far as I'm concerned, I agree with you people should only be friends with neurodivergent people. And I want to say to you that one of the people who is so good to me through my book launch party from why we'll know and play with me. My first book is, ever patient with me, never shames me. Is the first person to say, Well, I think that was really mean what they said, and I don't care that you like, barged in and interrupted like That was rude. Is my, one of my closest friends, Kendra, who I end the book talking about, who is typical. And I think part of it is just she's a kind person, right? Like she's not judgy in general, but I think, like, I want that choice. So I talk about this. If you want to be friends with neurodivergent people solely, that's great, and that's good for you, but I want people to have a choice. And that's my big thing in general.
• 27:43
  Caroline Maguire: And I love that you're peeling the layer of the onions. And I think also there's going to be people who are in for that journey and are like, loving that you're doing it. And then I talk about this in the book, I kind of have made new friends. I have my friends from college, you know, who are not here in my town, but they are in my life, even if it's just writing me yesterday or writing me, you know, in a week, or something like that. But I did find that as I grew since my diagnosis, and as I evolved, I realized the people who weren't really treating me well, and I have shed those friends and, you know, maybe they shed me, I don't know, but I was just like, you're not treating me well. And so I think, like, that's the other thing. Like, sometimes you're unpeeling these layers, and some people are critical and aren't kind. And I talk about this a lot in the book, looking at like, how will someone be a good friend? And if they're not, like, I love your friend is thinking that I love that they're like the layers, and they're in for the journey. If they're not and they're unkind, I, you know, I love a good list of, like, criteria, and one of the things you know on my list is like, how do you feel when you're with that person? Because if you don't feel good, they're not a good friend.
• 29:02
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, I just think that I'm with you. I've had people who, as I have unpeeled certain layers and certain contexts and done things. I've had people who struggled but caught up later, you know, they needed a moment to process. I've had people who, you know, haven't really enjoyed it, haven't loved it, and some of them I'm still friends with, but like, I'm a new version of me in a little bit of a, you know, in certain ways, and they don't necessarily really want to be friends with this new version of me, and that's okay. And we can still kind of like, be in community or be in contact. I don't need to put a lot of energy there. They don't put a lot of energy there, but we're pleasant to each other. There's nothing wrong with them. That's fine. We're just not meant to drive in this version of me, and then I have friends who have just let it go. There's no right or wrong way to do it. But I think you're right. It's like to check in on your feelings. How do you feel?
• 30:03
  Caroline Maguire: Yeah. And I think also, for anyone who's newly diagnosed, I think that there's sort of a pre diagnosis, post diagnosis, and I think there's a lot of adults getting diagnosed later in life. By the way, it's not a trend.
• 30:16
  Alex Alexander: No, it's not a trend.
• 30:17
  Caroline Maguire: It's not a trend. It's about people having the time during the pandemic to actually think about things and realize things. And I think there's times when who you were before you knew your brain is not who you are now, and you transition. I don't really believe in friendship breakups, like I don't break up with people and have some big drama, but sometimes people do fade away. And, you know, I hate the whole ghosting thing. I hate this trend of ghosting and being unkind. It's just, I don't get it. I mean, I deal with it every day with my clients, but I don't get it. But I do think that you evolve, and if you evolve and someone doesn't understand that evolution and isn't up for it, then you may not stay close to them. You may they may drift away. Yeah, yeah.
• 31:07
  Alex Alexander: And you may put your energy somewhere else. I was just talking to somebody else about this, of like, you know, you were saying you made some new friends. Sometimes the easiest way is to actually, like, redirect your energy towards what you need, and then those other friendships just become less all consuming. And maybe you can keep them in some sort of simpler format, or maybe over time, they just, like, slowly dwindle. I'm not talking about ghosting, talking about just like, No, you Yeah, but I have to say, No, I know, but
• 31:37
  Caroline Maguire: no, it's out there, and it's so sad. And I get it, I just don't know.
• 31:41
  Alex Alexander: I know. You know, I was not talking about that, but I'm remembering our audience, and sometimes we got to put, like, very direct words to our listeners today. So I wanted to be very clear that it's just like putting less energy over time and slowly that friendship kind of becomes less all consuming. I have definitely done that with some friendships.
• 32:04
  Caroline Maguire: And I want to say this too, people always resist this advice. So your audience is probably going to resist going to resist this advice, but it's good advice. So I have to say it, if you're embarking on a journey to make friends, and you're picking up my book because you're like, I want more friends in my life, I'm lonely, that's awesome. And this gives you everything you need to know about friendship and how to make friends, and how to make friends, using our brain and using interest, which is our fuel, yep, but have multiple irons in the fire. Yes, no. Oh, that is like multiple venues.
• 32:38
  Caroline Maguire: Seek multiple groups, seek multiple people, because otherwise, so a it's easier to be trapped. Being trapped like we were as kids, comes from. I'm in an environment. I'm in a situation I can't get out, and I feel so dependent on these people. And I don't want that for you. Second, a lot of times, people put months and months and months into a group, and then the person moves away or disappears, that you're really cultivating and that you like, or they turn out not to be your people, you know, and in that case, you feel so defeated. And so everybody resists this advice. I even get DMS from people that are like, Get away from me with this advice to, like, meet multiple people and do multiple things, it's too much work. And I'm like, Look, I know it's work, and I know that you don't want this advice, but it spares you that feeling of like, oh my God, I've invested so much time in this, and then it didn't pan out
• 33:33
  Alex Alexander: Well, the good news, Caroline, is you have found your people here, because that is probably one of my top three. Like, core things I talk about is not putting all your eggs in one basket.
• 33:44
  Caroline Maguire: I know it is, and that's why I was so happy when I was listening to you. I was like, Oh my god.
• 33:48
  Alex Alexander: So I don't think you're gonna get much pushback around here, because I pretty much talk about that in every episode. So if anybody stuck around for more than one episode, they've heard me talk about that. I agree with you.
• 34:00
  Alex Alexander: It's like when you are all dependent, as you said, on one person, one group, one everything. You don't have any ability. Well, no, you don't have any ability. It makes it harder to maybe, for example, unpeel a layer and be a little more your authentic self, because you're so panicked that if you do this, one group might not like it, and you have no other options. So then, because you're so dependent, you feel just like really boxed in to doing anything you can to stay there absolutely we don't like that around here. No, you want options. We want no options.
• 34:43
  Caroline Maguire: And you have different friends for different purposes, right? So what if you like being friends with me, but you would like to go outdoors, right? And I have stated that I am not going to go outdoors, right? And you're like, Well, I want to do this stuff. And I'm like, Well, I can't do this for you, because I will fall off the boat. Then you want to have a different friend for a different purpose, and it's okay, we can all coexist. So I think that's part of your message that I really, really love, because I think we have to have multiple avenues, and that helps us also explore different sides of ourselves.
• 35:25
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Caroline and I did not mean to basically end up talking about my Wheel of Connection here, but that's what we're doing for all of my neurodivergent friends listening today. I have a framework for you. I have a visual for you, something that will allow you to see all the connections in your life. What's there, what's missing, where you want to put your energy. That framework exists, it is going to completely change. I know that we love a framework that we can plug an understanding of like a topic that really just kind of feels out there and floaty, and we can make it calm. Concrete.
• 36:07
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: If you want to do that, go listen to Episode 100 where I break down my Wheel of Connection framework. It is the cornerstone of everything I talk about when it comes to friendship. It's on my website.
• 36:19
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: It's all over my social media.
• 36:21
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Go find it now, while I have you here, I want to bring up one more thing a little earlier, when I was talking to Caroline, I mentioned this idea of, kind of putting less energy into a friendship. And I know that for a lot of us who are neurodivergent, we need a really direct, tangible example of what that looks like, because Caroline kind of brought up the idea of ghosting. And just to be clear, that is not what I was talking about. So I want to give you an example. Let's say there's someone that you have been spending a lot of one on one time with, and you're realizing that this friendship just really isn't supporting you. You don't have to ghost them. You don't have to have a big, dramatic friendship breakup. What you can do is look at your Wheel of Connection and ask yourself, Where does this friend actually fit now, maybe with all this one on one time, they've really found themselves in your Present Friend category, but you're realizing that they aren't as supportive as you want, or there's things, some things you don't align on, And maybe they're more of a Defined friend, or maybe they're more of a Historic Friend. And both of those are okay, and you can kind of shift them into another category on your Wheel of Connection, you can still be friends with them. You're just going to have different roots, different things you connect about. So if you're kind of shifting them into a Defined friend category, this might mean that instead of hanging out with them one on one all the time, maybe you're really going to focus on inviting them to that workout class that you love or that group hike that you go on.
• 38:05
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: You're going to put a little less pressure, a little less expectation on the friendship.
• 38:09
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: You're going to still allow them to be a friend, to be a part of your broader community, and allow that to be enough, if you're going to shift them into a Historic Friend, that might mean that you stop trying to do a bunch of new things together, one on one, and you just let it be what it is. You get together.
• 38:27
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Every once in a while, you catch up, and that kind of becomes the expectation and the new norm, and that's totally fine. I go even deeper into this in Episode 12, which is all about my Roots of Connection framework, which is another framework that our neurodivergent brains love, because it will allow you to understand how you are connected to the people in your life. My final thing to tell you is that if you want a full breakdown, like the most complete breakdown I have about these two frameworks, then you are going to want to get my new book. Are we friends? Yet? Is releasing on June 16, and if you are not already on the wait list, or if it is after June 16 and it is out, then head to[alexalex.link/book]. It's in the show notes to make sure you get your copy today.
• 39:21
  Alex Alexander: We are so aligned in all the places. I love it so much. There was a concept in your book that maybe kind of aligns with this. I don't know, we'll see, but you talked about this idea of unmasking, which you and I, if you are anywhere, on neurodivergent social media, there are endless posts about unmasking. Talk to me about this idea of like, unmasking versus adapting, because I have not seen anybody talk about that, and I read it in your book, and was like, whoa. This is a whole new way to think about this.
• 39:59
  Caroline Maguire: I'm so glad.
• 40:00
  Caroline Maguire: I'm so happy. Okay, so I think that we all adapt in life, and we all have different sides of ourselves, and what I mean by adapting that's different than being masked is adapting is like a temporary thing, right? It's a choice, like I'm choosing to so here's an example I always give that really close friend of mine, who I end the book talking about, Kendra, had a 50th birthday at eight o'clock at night in January in downtown Boston. Now she really, really wanted this party, and I understand why, and sometimes we have to give ourselves things.
• 40:37
  Caroline Maguire: However, I really like to go to bed early. I'm always tired. I'm always catching up on sleep. I'm not really a night owl. I don't drink, so I'm not really like into certain scenes, but I adapted and I went because it was really, really important to her, and I'm glad that I did. I actually ended up having great chats with some people. But, you know, that's adapting. It's temporary. I made a choice. I don't feel so uncomfortable. I make allowances and. I'm just, I'm going along with people, but by choice, right? Not? I feel powerless, and I have to do this, and I don't, it increases my stress, and I don't feel like I have any choice, and I don't feel like I can show my authentic self, because I told her, like, it's late, but I'll, I'll definitely go, you know, like I wasn't, like hiding it.
• 41:31
  Caroline Maguire: And I think that's one of the big differences. I think that when people talk about masking, they talk about it in a very all or nothing way. They talk about it as if shedding your mask is going to be like, overnight, which I don't think is true. And there's sort of this lack of discussion of like, we still sometimes adapt. One of the analogies I have is, like, food allergies. A lot of people have food allergies now. So if someone has, if I want to go for Chinese food, but someone has a garlic allergy, I'm not like, well, that's too bad you won't have anything to eat, but you can come with me to Chinese food. I'm like, oh, okay, let's find a different place. Yeah, and that's adapting, and that's also what we do in life, right?
• 42:12
  Caroline Maguire: So I think that we we adapt in degrees. We look at things in different situations, we sometimes feel like this person is safe, and I can say something to them, and then sometimes we feel like this person isn't safe, so I'm going to keep my thoughts to myself, and so that's one of the big distinctions. And I feel like sometimes when we talk about masking on the internet, it's really not taking into account the fact that even if we're unmasking, we can still adapt, and we will still adapt.
• 42:41
  Alex Alexander: I think this is maybe one of you have a lot of important concepts in your book, but this one, I think is so important because as you're talking about it, I'm just thinking, when I have my friendships with my neurotypical friends, what I hope is that they adapt to me sometimes, right? So an example of this, and I've talked about this on the podcast before, is some of my neurotypical friends when I get really excited, right? And I'm info dumping, and I'm seeing all the patterns, and I'm just throwing this out, and I'm like, leaping through conversations, right? All of a sudden I was talking about, I don't know friendship, and in my mind, I see the connector, but suddenly I'm talking about AI, and then I'm talking about dinner plans three weeks from now, and they are just like, Excuse me, how did we get here? In 90 seconds, we again, have, like, a code word where they'll be like, hey, circles. Circles. Like, where are we going? Yeah, like, they're like, you're talking in circles. And we don't, I don't know how we got here. So can you give me the connectors that you had to get there so, so I can catch up. And in my mind, like, that's them adapting to me.
• 43:58
  Alex Alexander: That's not them telling me, Don't do this. We can't keep up with you anything. It's them saying like, hey, I want to track the conversation,
• 44:07
  Caroline Maguire: but I'm not tracking it right,
• 44:08
  Alex Alexander: but I'm not tracking it. So can you please, just like, real quick, give me the connector so I can put all these pieces together. And I think as neurodivergent people like we hope, we want our friends to adapt that way. So I love that you talk about us also figuring out how to adapt in a way that feels good and not like we have to be permanently up past 8pm all the time.
• 44:36
  Caroline Maguire: And I think, like for conversations, I love that. You guys have a word for it. I call it like throwing a flag up where you're saying, you know, I'm gonna info dump right now, or I'm going to do that ADHD thing where I'm going to tell you a story, and the story is going to seem like, why are you telling me this story, but I'm going to loop back around and there's really a point. And I think that's the other thing.
• 45:01
  Caroline Maguire: If we do that, you know, if we go on a side quest and we're like, this side quest is worth it, I promise, then people can come with us, and they can track what we're saying. And I think sort of the all or nothing thinking of the internet is sometimes like, well, we shouldn't have to explain ourselves, except when sometimes I am going in circles, sometimes people can't follow me. They literally don't know what I'm trying to say. And I think also people are willing to take that ride with you, if you flag it a little bit and say, like, I'm going to info dump, I'm going to share this with you, like, there's a point to my conversation. I just also feel like they're adapting to me, and that is something that's come out in research. There's a lot of mismatched communication is part of the dilemma. And so what that research shows is that if you explain to people like, the way I process is this, and so I kind of need all the details first, and then I can make the big picture. They tend to not think, well, this is so out of the blue, this is so random, this is so different than how I think. And they. Tend to take the journey with you, and so I'm all for explaining stuff and sort of having those code words, because I think it makes it better communication, and it ends that mismatched communication problem that I think is a big problem for us.
• 46:23
  Alex Alexander: Oh, such a big problem. And, you know, the beautiful thing about your book is that sprinkled throughout it, you have all of these like self advocacy strategies for people, including some pretty bold ones.
• 46:36
  Alex Alexander: Like at one point in the book, you tell people you know if, if you're really struggling to determine if somebody wants to keep working to develop a friendship, ask them, ask them, like, do you want to be my friend? And I read that, I was just like, yes, yes. Like, that's okay. You know anybody who does want to continue working to be your friend, if you hung out a few times and they keep coming back, and if they're going to be your friend, and that's what makes you feel comfortable, like, that's comfortable, like, that's probably not the last time you're gonna ask them a really direct question. So I just, I was so excited to see that in the book.
• 47:17
  Caroline Maguire: And, you know, I took a lot of stuff from the dating world, because there is really no research on neurodivergent friendship. Like, they don't study that. They don't study us. They don't they don't do it. They study like little kids. And so there were times when I was like, I need to figure out a path for this. And I have a few clients who have seen me for friendship, and now they're in the dating world, and so I'm helping them with dating.
• 47:43
  Caroline Maguire: And I read a bunch of research, and I talked to, actually, a couple of matchmakers and a couple people. And I was like, you know, there's advice in the dating world that we don't apply to friendship. That's like, really good advice. And some of that is that finding your people and curating things, like, think how much time we spend about our partner, like my clients like spend a ton of time on a hinge profile, and then they go on a date, and then they change the profile, and that's awesome. We spend almost no time thinking about what we want in friendship and also in saying, like, what are the things I need if I need to be more transparent? Do I need to say to certain things?
• 48:24
  Caroline Maguire: Do I need to sort of self advocate and ask people questions the way we would in dating, we wouldn't go on 18 dates with someone, and then finally say, is this going anywhere like we would ask?
• 48:36
  Alex Alexander: Yes, I never thought doing this much work in friendship, I would spend so much time thinking about romantic relationships, but you kind of have to, because the romantic relationship is so all consuming. And then you and I are over here trying to get people to have friendships, and you're just like, Okay, well, what are we doing over there that we're not doing here?
• 48:55
  Alex Alexander: Because there seems to be some mismatch. So I'm with you, I think, be direct and ask,
• 48:59
  Caroline Maguire: and I think also I have a whole section on signs you're making progress, because I feel like a lot of people are super anxious and they're wondering. And so I love a list. I love a list of like, and I collected them from people like I interviewed a lot of people for this book, and some people didn't want to be mentioned. So I'm sad because they didn't want to be mentioned, but I really want to give them credit. And there were so many things that people contributed to me that really were things like, just ask directly, or if you ask someone to do something after you've been meeting them in a group and you've been enjoying them in an activity, you know, ask twice and then let it go. And if they don't say they want to do something again, or something outside the activity, like, give it some space, because we need answers to those kind of questions, and we need to just even have, like, a baseline, you know, what am I doing here? How many times am I masking?
• 49:54
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Yeah, I mean, you have throughout the book, so many of these self advocacy type things like, similar to the Just ASK, right?
• 50:04
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: You have ones about social cues.
• 50:06
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: If you're having a hard time reading a room, talking to your people and being like, hey, I need more facial expressions. I need more like, nodding yes, no, more direct. I am happy with this. I am sad with this. I don't like that, whatever. Yeah.
• 50:22
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: I mean, you had ones. I'm trying to think about explaining communication styles to people, like, kind of how you mentioned earlier, hey, I'm an info dump now,
• 50:32
  Caroline Maguire: yeah, I call that a communication where you communicate your needs and you give a little explanation, and you're like, I'm an anxious person, so I need to know. I just did this. I have something next week, and I was like, I can't really do this. I can't I'm an anxious person. Like, I can't really do this thing where I'm going somewhere at a time I don't know to do a television spot that I don't know what I'm talking about, like, in a place I don't know. And like, I was just like, I can't do this, so I have to tell to I have to ask, I have to say, Hey, I'm a person who's anxious, and I need to know stuff. So like, I need some details here. And I think a lot of time. My clients feel really shame about that. But most of the I mean, I use this all the time, and my clients use it all the time. Most of the time, people are like, Oh, okay, you know, they just don't think to provide it, because for them, it's not an issue.
• 51:24
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, well. And again, to compare this to something else, because sometimes I think when we talk about it in a non friendship context, friendship context, that helps people, I am one of those people. It has a lot of food issues. So when we are like, going to dinner with someone, it's like, no, no. I actually have to open up the menu before we confirm, and I need to read through and determine if there's anything I can eat there. And then I would never ask somebody to necessarily do that for me, although some of my close friends try, and that's very sweet of them. But I do need some information, right? Or if you're cooking dinner and I'm coming to your house, I will, for example, send I have a list of very everyday products, like bread, tortilla chips, mayonnaise, salad dressings, like things that I can eat by brand, because, again, I have such a complex list, and my friends have that. And so if they are cooking me dinner, they will literally be like, Oh, this recipe calls for mayo. Let me open Alex's list of approved Mayos that she can eat by brand.
• 52:30
  Alex Alexander: And so I think when we talk about it in that sense, somebody's like, Well, if that's what she has to do to enjoy a meal with her friends, then like, that sounds like a lot of work, but I'm happy her friends will accommodate it. We're talking about the exact same thing for communication styles and sensory input and the same self advocacy for anybody who feels that shame, I don't think it's any different.
• 52:56
  Caroline Maguire: I don't think it's any different either, and I do also feel like, you know, part of unmasking is to not be miserable, right? Because, like, one of the things that happens with neurodivergent friendship is it doesn't feel worth it because we're going to a place we don't like to be with people we're not really connected to because we're masking to do something we're not really interested in doing, to spend money we don't really have like, it's like, why would that be enjoyable? And so it's not going to happen overnight for people, but I really wanted people to think about like, what fills your connection cup? What do you need? And it's very much the same as what kind of mayo. By the way, we have like, three different jars of mayo in this house, because when I serve my family, we don't have allergies, but my extended family have a lot of preferences, especially those who say they are not neurodivergent and is only my generation and below. But yet, I cannot serve a ham without canes mayonnaise, but if I don't also have another brand on hand, other people won't eat like you know, they have a lot of preferences, and so I feel like this is part of it. Is like we have to sort of come to understand things in these contexts. And I love the idea of allergies, because I think it makes people feel better about things. I wouldn't ask you to eat something that endangers you. Don't ask me to sit in a, you know, outside venue that's going to hurt me, sensory wise, and where I'm gonna burn to a crisp because there's no shade, you know. Like it's the same thing.
• 54:32
  Caroline Maguire: I have another neurodivergent friend to give another example to everyone she has, like auditory processing, like auditory sensory stuff is really intense for her, to the point where, when I voice memo her, I really try to make sure I'm in a quiet environment, because the background noise is I know, makes it incredibly hard for her to hear what I'm saying, right?
• 54:53
  Caroline Maguire: That's a small adjustment I'm trying to make for her. Another thing is, she has made it very clear. She's like, Hey, I would love to go on a walk. I would love to hang out at your house.
• 55:04
  Caroline Maguire: I would love to go paddle boarding. I don't want to go sit in a loud restaurant. Same you know, we could talk, and I will try so hard, but we will walk out of there, and I will just be so overstimulated that honestly, the next day, I will wake up and I will have no concept of what we talked about. I will not remember any of it, and then I'll pay the price for a couple days because I was so overstimulated. So we just don't hang out by ever going out to dinner. And it's not that hard.
• 55:32
  Caroline Maguire: We have so many other ways we can spend time together, but I know that's not you know if I'm gonna invite her and her boyfriend over and I wanna do dinner, we gotta do it at one of our houses. We're not going out anywhere.
• 55:45
  Caroline Maguire: I think there's some myths and friendship that were like perpetrated, and I blame the media, but I think they were sort of passed down to us as kids. And it kind of is along the lines of the you're too much, you know, shrink yourself into a box. And one of them, I think, is like, you can't ask for stuff. You should know this already, because. You're an adult, so you should know this.
• 56:08
  Caroline Maguire: I don't think so. I think that we learn over time. I don't think we learned these skills. I don't think we knew our brains.
• 56:16
  Caroline Maguire: And I think like, you can't ask for stuff. You know, a doctor said this to me, and again, I'm not allowed to quote him, but he was so brilliant. He said, Caroline. He said, if, if you being late really makes someone so unhappy and miserable, then maybe they're not your people, right? If you you know needing these food things is really such a big deal to someone, then they're not your people. And I think that's like a new mindset.
• 56:42
  Caroline Maguire: And I'm not saying it's going to happen overnight for people, but I really try to sort of stress in the book that, like, you get to have a choice in friendship, and you get to ask for stuff that you need, and that I know this takes confidence, right?
• 56:57
  Caroline Maguire: And I think that's the piece that we don't talk about enough, and I know that that takes time to feel confident enough to ask.
• 57:05
  Caroline Maguire: But I do want people like, maybe someday you'll be thinking of this and you'll think, oh, you know, Alex and Caroline said, like, it's okay to ask, because I think that's a piece that has held us back from having those real, authentic connections, because your friend is miserable right at an event where she's not able to even process what's happening around her. How is she going to have a good time and have real friendship connection?
• 57:32
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Well, and I would take this a step further, for anybody who's concerned about asking, I would tell you that that friend who doesn't want to go to a restaurant I love that I know that fact about her, I love her.
• 57:44
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: I am so grateful she shared that with me and was vulnerable enough to tell me, and it makes me very happy to, you know, suggest a Hangout that I know she would like, right? And on the flip side, you know, something I've really seen is that list of my food restrictions and things for as much as I have told my friends, Hey, it's okay. You can just tell me, Alex, there's nothing there. You can eat and I will bring my own meal. Not a big deal. Not once have I had that happen to me. They always, honestly in my mind, like spend too much time trying to accommodate me, but they're so proud of themselves. When they do, they're so happy. They're like, you know, it's a way that they showed me love and how much they care. They want to do it, no matter how much I tell them they don't need to, or like, Hey, it's okay. I don't need to be able to eat every dessert, like, one is fine. And yet, I get there and they're so proud to be like, Hey, I checked the ingredients, and you can eat that one and that one and that one, every dessert on this table is safe for you.
• 58:54
  Caroline Maguire: Because I think that if someone is a true friend, they really care about taking care of you. And that's, I think, a real distinction. And by the way, I talk about this in the book, not everyone is a close friend, so you have different levels of friends, and a lot of times, I think what we do as neurodivergent people is we someone who's an acquaintance, we give them the name friend, and then when they don't come through for us like that, we're really disappointed, and we feel so rejected. But they're not a friend, they're an acquaintance. And I think that's an important distinction. Like I think our friends should could do that for us. And then I think sometimes our acquaintances don't, because they don't know us well enough either.
• 59:36
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, I agree with you. I also think like, right, you talk about this in the book. It's kind of a spectrum of like, giving people little opportunities to show up that way, so an acquaintance like I may not give them my full list of allergies, for example, and my list of foods, but I might tell them like, hey, I'll come to that barbecue for the community, just so you know, I'm probably gonna bring my own food. How do they react to that?
• 1:00:03
  Alex Alexander: I'm not looking for them to be like, Oh, I'll accommodate everything all. I'm looking for them to be like, Oh, okay, well, yeah, I want you to have something you can eat, right?
• 1:00:12
  Alex Alexander: You know, right? And absolutely, the little you talk about this in the book, like the little opportunities and seeing how if people show up in that way, and, like, building up to that over time. And if it's a community that may be, like, the top level I get is that everyone is just really welcoming to me bringing my own food.
• 1:00:34
  Caroline Maguire: Yeah, I call this dropping a ping. So I have some exercises too, where I'm like, you know, feel people out.
• 1:00:41
  Caroline Maguire: Like, part of the point of conversation, I know we don't love chit chat and we don't love small talk, part of the point of conversation is to feel people out and see how they react to things. And so you even could develop some things that you say, you know, like, if you love certain things, you can make a little comment, like, you know, I've been on this block before because I've been to this restaurant. I'm like, a total foodie. And then just see. What they say, and see how they react. And in your those small opportunities allow you to get to know people better. They allow people to show you their like and, you know, affection for you, I think, like paying attention, not in a hyper vigilant way where we drive ourselves absolutely into rumination, but just paying attention to like. If these are the things I want in friendship, and these are my people, and these are the things that I want to see from someone, let me like feel people out and also give them little opportunities and see how they are not like in a testing way, but, but in a way, it's just, it's, I call it feeling people out, because I don't want to, like, give everyone a test and make them like, you know, try to pass the test.
• 1:01:53
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you also talk about in the book, like, the idea that when you are trying this out, you don't have to buy every car. It literally could just be for practice. Is what you say, that you could go and you could be practicing the skill of dropping these little pings here and there. How do you feel about that? Were you able to do it easily? Did you come up with a few of your go to pings that you're going to drop? You don't have to walk away with a really close friend from every single one of those.
• 1:02:21
  Caroline Maguire: Yeah, I like the idea of practice, because sometimes we really get set on like, I'm going to go to this event, I'm going to meet people kind of like dating, and I'm going to, like, come away with this great like, close friend.
• 1:02:33
  Caroline Maguire: And that doesn't always happen, and we do need to practice these skills. These are skills, and sometimes we're practicing. I made a video. I don't think it's gone up yet, but made a video because I went to a wedding, and I was like, Oh, this is how my clients feel. Because I didn't know anyone, but I wanted to go, because that's like, the nice thing to do. And I love the bride, and I actually love the groom, and I've watched their journey, and I'm so happy for them to have this, like, second opportunity at love. And I went, and I, like, had my conversation starters, and I had some people that I was going to get her gift, and I wanted to, like, find her sister, find some people. And I use that as an excuse to just, like, chat with people like, you know, I've heard all about you. You're her cousin, Lou. I'm, you know, one of her friends. I'm looking to get her a gift. She told me she went to this great outdoor store. Do you happen to know what she's talking about? And I ended up, like, having a really good night, partially because I saw it as practice. I didn't see it as a comment on me. If I was like, alone, my husband ended up having, like, a total like, he's such an extrovert. He was like chatting with everyone, and he was like having all these conversations. But you know, if it's harder for you, which it was for me, I think just to have that baseline mindset of like, this is practice. It's not going to be the best conversation I ever have. I think that can help, because then you do sometimes let your guard down and actually have one of the best conversations you'll ever have.
• 1:04:02
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, and we all have to, you know, I mean, even you and I, you wrote a book on Friendship Skills for Neurodivergence. You are over here talking about how you're still practicing. I practice all the time, like, in fact, I don't know if you feel this way, because I talk about this, I almost feel like I have to practice more, more, like I have to put myself in situations that maybe I don't really feel like I need to do that or but I tell people to do that on the internet all the time. And like, if I'm gonna tell people to do that, I gotta go do that. I'm practicing all the time. I'm messing up all the time.
• 1:04:37
  Caroline Maguire: Oh, absolutely. And that's something I talk about too. Like, I think we have to forgive ourselves more and and move past this idea that it's going to be perfect because it's not going to be perfect. It's not perfect for me, one of the things I say in the book is, like, I'm not pretending I have the best social skills of anyone. I'm just the person who thinks about this all the time
• 1:04:59
  Alex Alexander: same. Yeah. And the more you practice, the better you'll get at your own, you know, like, unique way of doing it, because also the way you show up and the way I show up are going to be totally different, and that's okay, too,
• 1:05:12
  Caroline Maguire: totally I don't want that's part of the unmasking. You don't have to be a certain way, and that's where this book is different. A lot of books in the past, especially for children, were like, This is how you do social skills, and this is how you do it. And you have to be a certain way, and you have to adapt yourself to this, and you have to mask, and you have to pretend, and you have to fit yourself in a box.
• 1:05:35
  Caroline Maguire: And when I was starting this book, I was really like, I've watched that. I've had jobs where I was running social skills groups where they wanted me to do that. And I was like, No, I'm not doing that. And was very unpopular. So I just was like, we have to get past that.
• 1:05:50
  Caroline Maguire: We have to stop thinking that there's one way, and that if you don't meet those expectations, like you're done.
• 1:05:56
  Alex Alexander: Yes, we could just host a podcast together. Is what I'm learning today, because this is truly my thing. And I'm also like, I don't know this one way doesn't seem to. Be working for a lot of people. Quite frankly, a lot of people are lonely out there. And also, I just firmly believe whatever works for you and feels good for you, who am I to tell you how to do it? Who is a book or a writer? Whatever feels good to you and you feel like you're getting the connections you need and finding the belonging that you need. I love that for you.
• 1:06:27
  Alex Alexander: The end, that's, that's all I want for people.
• 1:06:30
  Caroline Maguire: No, that's all I want for people. And I also think like for us as neurodivergent people, like I think we do friendship differently, and I think we think differently. I don't think I can do things the way that everyone else does them. I have to find my own way forward, and I have to honor my brain. And sometimes my brain is, you know, not linear, and is going in circles. And so I think that that sort of, there's only one way, and you have to meet that one way. I think it's, I think it's going to evolve and change.
• 1:07:04
  Caroline Maguire: Because I think as we're also in a more diverse society. I think that there's just more ways of being that everybody is finding.
• 1:07:13
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, I agree with you. I can't wait to see what like the landscape that we're working in looks like in 10, 20, 30, 40, years, I think we are on the edge of just some major shifts happening over time in our lifetime.
• 1:07:28
  Caroline Maguire: Oh my gosh, yes.
• 1:07:30
  Alex Alexander: So I think that your book, Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults is kind of like Friendship 101 for neurodivergent people. That's what I was telling you. I think anybody who, honestly, anybody, I think anybody should go pick up this book, because even if you are a neurotypical person, you likely have some neurodivergent people in your life somewhere, whether they know it or not, and it can't hurt to understand What other people's brains look like and how to adapt better, like we were talking about. So I mean, definitely, if you are neurodivergent, go pick up this book. But I think that anybody should go pick up this book.
• 1:08:18
  Caroline Maguire: I love that.
• 1:08:19
  Caroline Maguire: Can I have that clip? Yeah, absolutely. Look, I think that we haven't had a path forward, and a lot of people are very lonely, and I think one reason that they're lonely is that we as a society have shifted. And there's a lot in this book that's just like, This is how friendship works, and this is how meeting people works, and this is how theirs is the different options, and then you get to choose. You know, I was thinking of it like a game show tournament, or 123, and then you get to look at the different doors, and you get to choose what door works for you. And that's really what I'm all about, and that's kind of how I live my life as a parent, too. I I remember looking at the way people parented, and I was like, not door number one, not door number two, three looks good. I think it's important to have those different options.
• 1:09:11
  Alex Alexander: I agree with you, and luckily, you have contained them all in one book for people, at least a lot of them. I mean, you cover so much in this book. Caroline, I want to thank you so much for being here today. I'm really excited for this book to get into people's hands, and I hope that people message you, message me.
• 1:09:30
  Alex Alexander: I'll pass it on to you like I want to hear what people think when they read this book.
• 1:09:36
  Caroline Maguire: I do too. I really mean it when I say people please message me. I always DM people back. I always write people back. I really enjoy hearing from people. And sometimes too, I can clarify something in like a second. You know, somebody wrote something on YouTube tonight, and I was just like, Oh no, like, this is what I mean. And they were like, Oh my God, that clears everything up for me. Thank you.
• 1:09:56
  Caroline Maguire: And I'm like, no problem. That took like, 20 seconds.
• 1:09:58
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, yeah. We are real people here behind the microphone. We love to chat it up with people. That's the best part. I get connected to all these people out in the world.
• 1:10:08
  Alex Alexander: But we would love to hear from you. Love to
• 1:10:10
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Before I let you go. If this conversation resonated with you today, if you heard something somewhere that felt like Caroline and I were talking directly to you in an experience that you have had, I want you to go get her book like right now. Go order it. Go request it at your library. Go find it on Libby, Audible - Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults. It's out there. It is available as a resource. And I am not exaggerating when I say that the number of actionable tips, frameworks and exercises packed into this book is kind of insane. It's not just like a sit and read it and shelve it in the back of your head. Kind of book. This is a sit down, do the work, reference it again and again and again as you keep making shifts in your friendships and connections. It's a that kind of friendship. Book. It belongs front and center on your bookshelf. And I say that genuinely. Now, if you are neurodivergent and you have listened to this episode, and you're like, oh, I want more conversations like this. I got you because I have more episodes about being neurodivergent in my catalog, go listen to Episode 40, where we talk about the concept of Strawberry Friends with Sadie Tichelaar, all about forming supportive friendships while neurodivergent, and the idea that most of us are performing friendship instead of actually experiencing it, and how to shift that. You can go listen to Episode 54 navigating friendships with ADHD, with Charlotte Dover, we talk about, you know, the forgotten text messages that sit there from weeks months, the chronic lateness the morning after shame spirals. How those are not character flaws. They're just part of the ADHD experience. And then Episode 144 writing your own friendship manual with Lee Hopkins. Lee is a late, diagnosed autistic adult who masked for decades and now has kind of rebuilt everything and come out on the other side. There's so much hope in this episode, also, if there are topics that you wish I talked about when it came to neurodivergence. Conversations you want me to have? Tell me Seriously, my DMs are open. I would love to know what you want me to dive deeper into, and with that, I'll see you next week.
• 1:12:42
  Alex Alexander: Thank you for listening to this episode of Friendship IRL. I am so honored to have these conversations with you. But don't let the chat die here. Send me a voice message. I created a special website just to chat with you. You can find it at
• 1:12:59
  [alexalex.chat](http: //alexalex.chat).
• 1:13:02
  [alexalex.chat](http: You can also find me on Instagram. My handle,@itsalexalexander. Or go ahead and leave a review wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts.
• 1:13:14
  [alexalex.chat](http: Now if you want to take this conversation a step further, send this episode to a friend.
• 1:13:19
  [alexalex.chat](http: Tell them you found it interesting. And use what we just talked about as a conversation starter the next time you and your friend hang out. No need for a teary goodbye. I'll be back with a new episode next week.