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The Power in the Truth You're Not Telling (with Shana James) · Evolutionary Men

• 0:00
  Jason Lange: Alright, and welcome back, everybody.
• 0:02
  I am very excited to once again have a fabulous guest on the show.
• 0:07
  And today it's Shana James.
• 0:09
  And Shana is a relationship and dating coach.
• 0:13
  She's the author of the book Honest Sex and the recently released Honest Dating
• 0:19
  Guide.
• 0:20
  Jason Lange: And she's the host of both The Man Alive and Practicing Love podcasts, which I've
• 0:24
  had the pleasure of being on each of, and was an amazing, amazing time.
• 0:28
  And Shana, I've and I have known each other, I don't know, probably a decade now,
• 0:32
  on and off, and reconnect
• 0:34
  Shana James: Really long.
• 0:35
  I think it's a lot longer than that.
• 0:38
  Jason Lange: Yeah and got got got even got to spend even more time with each other these last
• 0:43
  years at the Big Ten Men's Conference, which has been a a joy to attend both
• 0:48
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 0:48
  Jason Lange: years.
• 0:49
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 0:49
  Jason Lange: So I'm
• 0:49
  Jason Lange: very excited to have you here today.
• 0:51
  And as we were chatting, you know, a couple of months ago and coming into this
• 0:56
  episode, some themes I was really curious to talk into you about and the work you
• 1:01
  do and how they overlap would be, you know, particularly honesty, power, and sex.
• 1:07
  The thing that I think you know, we all want more good versions of in our
• 1:12
  Shana James: Yes.
• 1:12
  Jason Lange: lives.
• 1:15
  Shana James: I love that.
• 1:15
  Yeah, it makes so much sense.
• 1:17
  And when you said honesty, I mean we talked about power, but when you said honesty
• 1:22
  and power this morning, it just got my wheels turning, right?
• 1:26
  About how amazing it is for people to there's there's a way that I think in our
• 1:30
  culture right now, power is often associated with dishonesty, or there's a way that
• 1:35
  people are kind of
• 1:37
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 1:38
  Shana James: playing like you thinking, I have to play someone to be powerful or to
• 1:42
  Shana James: find a position of power and it's like, great, how do we find our own power within
• 1:49
  honesty?
• 1:50
  Jason Lange: Yeah,
• 1:51
  Jason Lange: I love that.
• 1:52
  I love that you spoke to the cultural moment as well, because I think that's one in
• 1:59
  particular that impacts men, right?
• 2:02
  Of what the all the cultural crap that is pushed into us as to what a powerful man
• 2:09
  is.
• 2:09
  And the many, many examples.
• 2:12
  Jason Lange: we have of, you know, kind of the the ugly truth often underneath that.
• 2:15
  And,
• 2:16
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 2:17
  Yeah.
• 2:19
  Jason Lange: you know, I think this is such a great topic too.
• 2:21
  because right, I consider myself a so-called recovering nice guy.
• 2:25
  I work with a lot of nice guys.
• 2:27
  You know, Dr.
• 2:28
  Glover's a good mentor and friend of mine.
• 2:31
  And I think truth and power and honesty, you know, are deeply, deeply correlated
• 2:36
  with a lot of the struggles of nice guys as well.
• 2:39
  Shana James: Yeah,
• 2:40
  Shana James: yeah.
• 2:41
  Shana James: I was just thinking this is slight sidetrack, but I think it fits when I led the
• 2:47
  authentic woman experience, we would do an exercise with women where we would help
• 2:53
  them be able to say no because what we found was that, you know, it was it was a it
• 3:00
  was lacking, right, in many women's
• 3:03
  Shana James: Not just vocabulary, but in like in their embodied experience of being able to get
• 3:08
  it out.
• 3:09
  And part of the context was that in in knowing we have the capacity to say no, or
• 3:14
  in knowing that we have the capacity, let's say, to speak our truth, we also don't
• 3:20
  necessarily have to use it, right?
• 3:22
  So you don't have to walk around in the world being like, no, no, no, you know, or
• 3:28
  that a woman who's scared on the street won't necessarily
• 3:32
  Shana James: Have this really loud expression unless she needs it.
• 3:35
  But, you know, think about self-defense training and all those things, right?
• 3:41
  It's like once you know your own power, you get to hold that close to you and use
• 3:46
  it when you need to.
• 3:48
  But it doesn't have to be in this loud or dominant way.
• 3:52
  So when I work with men, I think, and I'm curious about your experience of this too.
• 3:58
  Shana James: Right.
• 3:58
  It's like when men find that place of sovereignty and belief in themselves and
• 4:04
  knowing they are good no matter what they desire or fantasize about or all these
• 4:10
  things, right?
• 4:11
  There is that sense of sovereignty, power.
• 4:14
  I don't need I don't need to prove anything anymore.
• 4:18
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 4:18
  Yeah,
• 4:19
  Jason Lange: absolutely.
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  I think it's in so many ways that's the heart of so much men's work and you know,
• 4:24
  what I like to work with men on is that, you know, that simple polarity of in
• 4:28
  between posture and collapse.
• 4:30
  What does
• 4:31
  Shana James: Yes.
• 4:31
  Jason Lange: it mean to you know, and I would argue that's where our power is, right?
• 4:33
  I'm sovereign, I'm here.
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  And I don't
• 4:34
  Shana James: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:36
  Yeah.
• 4:37
  Jason Lange: have to pretend, you know, I'm not armoring against something because
• 4:41
  Shana James: Yes.
• 4:42
  Jason Lange: certainly in my experience and I'd be curious, you know, with the many clients
• 4:45
  you've worked with in in your own life.
• 4:47
  Jason Lange: One one of the things that had me avoid honesty, I would say, for a long time, was
• 4:53
  it's way more vulnerable too.
• 4:55
  Right?
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  Because if I'm not posturing of like, hey, here's what I'm at, where I'm at, here's
• 5:02
  what I'm feeling, here's what I'm desiring,
• 5:06
  Shana James: Yes.
• 5:07
  Jason Lange: I'm directly opening myself up to a no or a conflict or not being met in that.
• 5:14
  And
• 5:15
  Jason Lange: That's vulnerable for anyone, I think.
• 5:16
  Shana James: Yeah, I think we should talk
• 5:17
  Shana James: about
• 5:18
  Shana James: that.
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  Cause I've heard so many men say, Well, if I'm honest, then I give up my power, or
• 5:22
  right, then then she or someone, or you know, oftentimes I work with men in
• 5:26
  heterosexual relationships because I kind of translate for the woman.
• 5:30
  But, you know, let's say,
• 5:32
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 5:32
  Shana James: like, if I admit that I'm attracted or I admit that I'm scared or all these things,
• 5:39
  then aren't I giving up my power?
• 5:42
  which I'm just thinking back to your story with
• 5:47
  Shana James: Violet, Violet, is Violet, your your wife, right?
• 5:47
  Okay.
• 5:48
  I was thinking it was confusing your daughter's name.
• 5:49
  Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, that's my wife.
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  That's right.
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  Good memory.
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  Shana James: where you actually got vulnerable, right?
• 5:54
  And said, like, hey, this is what's going on for me and this is how I feel.
• 5:59
  in some of those first moments and that that was really what attracted her to you.
• 6:04
  And yet there's that fear so many men have like, No, no, no, that would be giving
• 6:10
  up my power.
• 6:11
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
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  Well and that it actually I would love to get your take on this because part of
• 6:17
  what I hear you speaking about is right when we're not direct or honest.
• 6:23
  you know this was a big kind of eye opener for me as I learned kind of about nice
• 6:30
  guy and
• 6:31
  Jason Lange: It's actually a w form of control and manipulation,
• 6:33
  Shana James: Right.
• 6:34
  Jason Lange: right?
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  Well, I don't want to tell you what I'm actually feeling or thinking or desiring
• 6:39
  because I'm trying to get some kind of outcome.
• 6:43
  Shana James: Right.
• 6:44
  Jason Lange: And I think that withholding that or modifying it is gonna, you know, kind of get
• 6:50
  us both there.
• 6:51
  And yeah, what what's your kind of experience or transmission around, you know, the
• 6:58
  how honesty.
• 7:00
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 7:01
  Jason Lange: And control or manipulation relate.
• 7:03
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 7:04
  Shana James: Well, as you say that, I think about, okay, if we keep like peeling back the layers
• 7:10
  and going deeper and deeper, right?
• 7:13
  The I think you can tell me your opinion that it's scarcity that would have us say,
• 7:19
  Well, if I reveal this and this person goes away, I'm left alone, right?
• 7:25
  Or I don't get to have sex or any of those things.
• 7:29
  Whereas if we're coming from a place or if we recognize
• 7:34
  Shana James: it it may not be this person in front of me.
• 7:36
  This, this may not like, where is the trust?
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  And sometimes I think we have to again rebuild trust in ourselves, rebuild trust in
• 7:43
  life from some of these childhood experiences we've had, and not think, the
• 7:47
  13-year-old experience I had of love is really how it's gonna go for the rest of my
• 7:52
  life, right?
• 7:53
  Jason Lange: Ha ha.
• 7:55
  Shana James: but if we're not coming from scarcity.
• 7:58
  Shana James: then as we are honest, like you said, in that middle ground, then can we, I don't
• 8:03
  know, can we kind of tr walk into a place of trusting the right, I don't know if
• 8:09
  it's the right thing will happen.
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  I don't know.
• 8:12
  We can explore this, right?
• 8:14
  It's like, but you know, I I don't believe there's one right person for us out
• 8:19
  there.
• 8:19
  But
• 8:20
  Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.
• 8:21
  Shana James: I also think we get very confused in these wound-based chemistries of like, I have
• 8:26
  to be with this person.
• 8:28
  Shana James: 'Cause I feel it in my loins, right?
• 8:29
  Like my body is reacting.
• 8:31
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 8:32
  Shana James: And so I think this is where I've got to go.
• 8:35
  But is there something bigger and is there a way that we have more power and more
• 8:42
  freedom when we recognize we get very attached to the one thing in front of us?
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  And maybe that's not what's going to happen.
• 8:52
  Jason Lange: I I love that.
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  And for some reason it's reminding me of this this one throwaway line Dr.
• 8:58
  Glover said on a call I had him on with my community once a long time ago.
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  Cause I think with nice guys and scarcity, like that's all a huge part of what's
• 9:09
  driving, you know, us.
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  And
• 9:11
  Jason Lange: He he ended up talking about attachment, right?
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  Cause then because I I work with guys and I've been this guy.
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  I come in then it's like, my God, I don't want to be too attached.
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  I don't want to be getting too attached to this, too attached to this.
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  And so what it can start to do is like almost shut down some desire in a sense.
• 9:25
  And
• 9:26
  Shana James: Yep.
• 9:27
  Yep.
• 9:28
  Jason Lange: he he he had this great, great line.
• 9:29
  I don't know if it's his or where he got it from, that has always stood with me and
• 9:34
  maybe is pointing to what we're talking about here, where he was like, having a
• 9:38
  preference or a desire is
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  Jason Lange: Is is different from attachment and said, because
• 9:43
  Shana James: Yes, yes.
• 9:44
  Jason Lange: right, he said it's not about being non-attached.
• 9:46
  You still want to, we all have a preference.
• 9:49
  It's just about knowing I'm gonna be okay no matter what the outcome is.
• 9:54
  Shana James: Right.
• 9:54
  Yeah.
• 9:55
  Jason Lange: So, right, if I'm early in a relationship with someone and you know I'm texting and
• 10:00
  I get guys that I'm so excited for her, but I don't want to get too attached, and
• 10:04
  da-da-da.
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  So I'm gonna play it cool, I'm not gonna respond as soon.
• 10:09
  Jason Lange: To me, that's very different, right, than what he's talking about, which is, yeah,
• 10:11
  I I do want her to like me.
• 10:12
  Shana James: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:15
  Jason Lange: And I understand that if she doesn't, and it's not reciprocal, I'm gonna be okay.
• 10:19
  I got my tribe, I got my community, I'm doing my work.
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  And paradoxically, I think that that can free us to actually be a little bit more
• 10:26
  honest, which is actually more attractive often when I experience
• 10:30
  Shana James: Totally.
• 10:30
  Which is actually yeah.
• 10:33
  Jason Lange: it, right?
• 10:33
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 10:34
  Shana James: God, there's so much in there too.
• 10:35
  And right, and that I'm not gonna text her, I'm gonna hold back.
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  That feels more like the posturing, the collapsing is like, God, I need her you
• 10:41
  know, I need her, I need this.
• 10:43
  Jason Lange: Good point.
• 10:44
  Shana James: And then coming back into again like I'm I don't wanna paint this as it's easy
• 10:49
  because you and I have been doing this work for decades, right, within ourselves
• 10:54
  where we're continuing to learn and continuing to less attention.
• 10:59
  Shana James: Attached, more grounded, more centered, right?
• 11:01
  More knowing that we have what we
• 11:03
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 11:03
  Shana James: need and we're also not islands.
• 11:04
  I mean, there's all these paradoxes that start to come in.
• 11:08
  Jason Lange: Totally.
• 11:08
  Shana James: So yeah, it's it's so interesting to think about: like, all right, so you start to
• 11:17
  date someone, and what is it like to actually be able to freely express your desire
• 11:26
  without
• 11:27
  Shana James: expressing it as like I need you or you know if you go away, I'm not gonna be okay,
• 11:33
  which goes back to what you were saying, like, what what if I come to a place of
• 11:39
  knowing that I am okay no matter what?
• 11:41
  I mean, how powerful is that?
• 11:44
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 11:46
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 11:50
  Shana James: Yeah, it's pretty wild, right?
• 11:51
  And then that sense of, okay, from there, I loved I think it there was someone in
• 11:56
  the past who again it was like one of those lines where you just remember it
• 12:00
  forever, right?
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  And the idea that a relationship is a really powerful place to co-create or a
• 12:05
  beautiful place to co-create something.
• 12:07
  It's a horrible place to try to get something, even though like you know, we are
• 12:12
  not islands and we are giving and receiving all the time.
• 12:15
  But if we come from that place of we're co-creating something.
• 12:19
  Shana James: You know, I've gone through divorce and many, you know, a bunch of relationships in
• 12:25
  the 15 years since my divorce.
• 12:27
  and when my partner and I first met about four years ago, we were both like, Hey,
• 12:33
  you know, we want this to work, but we're also at a time at an age where we know we
• 12:39
  are we're going to be okay.
• 12:41
  So let's not
• 12:42
  Jason Lange: Mm.
• 12:42
  Shana James: try to not hurt each other's feelings and not offend each other and
• 12:45
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 12:46
  Shana James: do that whole thing.
• 12:46
  Like
• 12:47
  Shana James: Let's see if we can be as honest as we possibly can and then see what happens,
• 12:53
  right?
• 12:53
  I think from there there is more pleasure and, you know, more chemistry and more of
• 13:00
  that sense of like we can be known and understood and loved for who we really are,
• 13:07
  which goes so deep.
• 13:09
  Jason Lange: Well yeah.
• 13:09
  I mean, as as you say that it strikes me an a great word for that is intimacy,
• 13:13
  right?
• 13:14
  That we get to feel a lot more intimacy.
• 13:16
  Just, you know, hearing the truth of my wife's heart doesn't always make me happy
• 13:20
  in the sense of the feedback or what she's feeling, but I
• 13:24
  Shana James: Yes.
• 13:25
  Jason Lange: definitely feel closer to her.
• 13:27
  And
• 13:28
  Shana James: Yes.
• 13:29
  Jason Lange: if I've learned anything from our almost nine years being married now,
• 13:33
  Jason Lange: I prefer feeling close to her than not close to her.
• 13:35
  Shana James: Mm-hmm.
• 13:36
  Yeah.
• 13:38
  Jason Lange: So I would rather know what's going on internally for her or between us that's not
• 13:42
  being spoken than not.
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  Because when it's not,
• 13:45
  Shana James: I love that.
• 13:45
  That feels so good in my heart to hear too.
• 13:49
  Jason Lange: Yeah, right.
• 13:49
  Cause when it's not, I I just know what kind of painful disconnection that creates
• 13:54
  Shana James: Yes.
• 13:54
  Jason Lange: in a sense, where there's all these projections then flying back and forth
• 13:57
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 13:58
  Jason Lange: and stories and resentments versus just the the the rawness of that.
• 14:02
  Okay, here's what's true for me, here's what's true for me.
• 14:06
  There might not even be a solution to this discord between us right now or
• 14:11
  potentially forever, but
• 14:13
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 14:14
  Yeah.
• 14:15
  Jason Lange: better to have it on the table than not.
• 14:17
  Shana James: Yeah, and to know each other.
• 14:18
  I mean, I think about even the other night where my partner and I were, you know,
• 14:23
  we were like, let's plan this time that we can be intimate.
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  And then, you know, we got there and I was just sort of irritable and a little
• 14:30
  distant.
• 14:31
  And then, you know, we come to realize like I started crying about something and
• 14:35
  come to realize he was like, Let's just take sex off the table, like, you know, and
• 14:40
  and let's actually reconnect because we hadn't been in a couple of weeks.
• 14:44
  And I
• 14:45
  Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.
• 14:46
  Shana James: just
• 14:48
  Shana James: After that, my heart and my body were so much more able to open.
• 14:51
  Like I had come to that situation, and this may be interesting too.
• 14:55
  I'd come to that situation thinking, he's been working really hard.
• 14:59
  You know, he's been rebuilding our back deck, which took like more than a hundred
• 15:03
  hours.
• 15:04
  It was like this giant project that we could not have foreseen.
• 15:07
  And I was like, I want to give to him, I wanna be generous, I wanna, you know, open
• 15:12
  and take care of him.
• 15:13
  And then I got there and I was just like, my God, this is.
• 15:17
  Shana James: forcing something.
• 15:18
  And I could have forced it, but it also would have been a little more mechanical,
• 15:23
  right?
• 15:24
  And this way that I could have like put on a role.
• 15:27
  I'm gonna be like this sexy diva or something.
• 15:30
  And I think what I got in that moment, and and you and I have had these
• 15:35
  conversations about vulnerability, right?
• 15:38
  It was like, it was more powerful in that moment for me to actually be vulnerable.
• 15:44
  Shana James: And it was incredibly powerful for him to say, let's take this off the table,
• 15:47
  instead of, okay, now I'm gonna go into my masculine and here's how we're gonna get
• 15:51
  there, and right, like as though
• 15:53
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 15:55
  Shana James: it had to happen in that one moment.
• 15:56
  And I think in life, you're a parent, I'm a parent, right?
• 15:59
  Life is fucking busy.
• 16:01
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 16:02
  Shana James: It can seem like if we're not gonna be intimate in one moment, it's never gonna
• 16:04
  happen again.
• 16:04
  And it might be a little while too,
• 16:06
  Jason Lange: It's so true.
• 16:08
  Shana James: but also can we, you know, see that bigger picture in the moment and the
• 16:13
  Shana James: The power of vulnerability, which many men also come to me saying it doesn't feel
• 16:17
  powerful, it feels like weakness.
• 16:20
  So maybe we talk
• 16:21
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 16:21
  Shana James: about that too.
• 16:23
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 16:23
  Well, I think that's so much of the cultural pressure in particular we get as men,
• 16:27
  you know, man box, patriarchy.
• 16:28
  It it's all real.
• 16:29
  Like it,
• 16:30
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 16:30
  Yeah.
• 16:31
  Jason Lange: you know, and it hits men and women and everyone, frankly.
• 16:34
  but it is a story that I think a lot of men carry that, yeah, you know, I'm just
• 16:38
  afraid to do that.
• 16:39
  Like the reasons we were talking about, right?
• 16:42
  If I tell her the truth and I'm giving away my power and da da da da.
• 16:45
  And
• 16:46
  Shana James: Right.
• 16:46
  yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:49
  Jason Lange: it's such a
• 16:51
  Jason Lange: juicy thing to work.
• 16:52
  And it's interesting because right, it's one of those things I think you just have
• 16:56
  to experience.
• 16:57
  Right.
• 16:57
  So we can tell, we can see you and I can sit
• 17:00
  Shana James: I know.
• 17:01
  Jason Lange: here and talk to people about the vulnerability, power, da-da-da.
• 17:04
  But until you experience it, I don't think you realize what's possible there.
• 17:09
  And I've had to work with men for a long time around it.
• 17:12
  And i even my understanding of it changed because you know even just as
• 17:17
  Jason Lange: Talk back to it.
• 17:17
  Like once you build the skill, it doesn't mean you always have to use it.
• 17:21
  And so, you know, I think it's great work and I've seen some ways it can go a
• 17:25
  little awry, the total radical honesty movement of just if it's if it's in your
• 17:29
  mind, you just speak it, you just blurt
• 17:31
  Shana James: You just sp
• 17:32
  Jason Lange: it, right?
• 17:32
  And I think that can be a an important skill set, you know, to practice at some
• 17:35
  point.
• 17:35
  So you have the capacity, but just because you
• 17:37
  Shana James: Mm-hmm.
• 17:40
  Jason Lange: have the capacity doesn't always mean it's actually the appropriate thing.
• 17:42
  And I, you know,
• 17:43
  Shana James: You have to use it.
• 17:44
  Totally.
• 17:45
  Jason Lange: I see that a lot with guys.
• 17:48
  Jason Lange: in particular who who were maybe a little bit more like me initially that were a
• 17:50
  little more ashamed of their turn on or desire.
• 17:51
  So when they start to connect to it,
• 17:53
  Shana James: Yep.
• 17:53
  Yep.
• 17:54
  Kinda goes the other.
• 17:58
  Jason Lange: then they're just like, whoa, way over the top in terms of being
• 18:01
  Shana James: Totally.
• 18:01
  Jason Lange: really explicit or speaking to something the moment hasn't really simmered in
• 18:07
  enough to earn.
• 18:08
  And so just long and short of this, I I used to teach guys my definition of
• 18:14
  vulnerability would be authenticity.
• 18:17
  Jason Lange: plus risk.
• 18:17
  So it's saying something true that's authentic
• 18:18
  Shana James: Mm-hmm.
• 18:21
  Jason Lange: that has a little risk attached, meaning I don't know how it's going come out.
• 18:25
  But I would then work with some guys who would kind of have this cranky
• 18:28
  authenticity and risk that would just shut down their partners.
• 18:32
  Shana James: Mm, mm.
• 18:34
  Jason Lange: and so the the I mean I'm just kind of thinking out loud here.
• 18:36
  The the piece I added was then softness.
• 18:38
  So literally
• 18:39
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 18:40
  Yes.
• 18:41
  Jason Lange: is the front of my body soft.
• 18:45
  Jason Lange: while I'm sharing it.
• 18:45
  It's just so somatic.
• 18:45
  Just
• 18:46
  Shana James: I like that.
• 18:46
  Yeah.
• 18:47
  Jason Lange: it's so somatic.
• 18:47
  And it's could be the same thing you're saying, but literally it's not coming from
• 18:49
  that tone that tone.
• 18:50
  That's it.
• 18:50
  That's totally a great way to put it.
• 18:52
  Shana James: Tone is different.
• 18:53
  Right.
• 18:54
  It's like the crankiness
• 18:57
  Shana James: or the complaint versus the desire, the other side of the coin.
• 19:00
  And I think
• 19:01
  Jason Lange: Yeah, there you go.
• 19:02
  Shana James: about too, like in my TEDx talk, it was called What a Thousand Men's Tears Reveal
• 19:06
  About the Crisis Between Men and Women.
• 19:08
  And there was a part in there around sharing vulnerability and like that you can
• 19:12
  hot potato it, right?
• 19:14
  You can sort of like dump it and try to get rid of it, which is okay if you're
• 19:18
  ashamed of it or scared of it.
• 19:19
  or
• 19:20
  Shana James: And and I think often that comes from like that question of am I okay?
• 19:24
  And can you tell me I'm okay?
• 19:26
  I don't know I'm okay in this moment.
• 19:28
  So I need you to tell me.
• 19:29
  So I'm just gonna like dump it over there and then you know, kinda like I just
• 19:34
  threw a bomb and I'm gonna versus that, I've come to recognize that as a part of my
• 19:39
  humanity, I'm gonna have some fear.
• 19:41
  I'm gonna have some, you know, I don't know, I'm gonna have all these parts that I
• 19:46
  don't
• 19:47
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 19:48
  Shana James: necessarily
• 19:50
  Shana James: I don't love about myself or I don't, I don't, you know, it's not how I would want
• 19:55
  it to be, but I can love myself and know I am a human being and an an amazing human
• 20:01
  being.
• 20:01
  And yes, this is part of me.
• 20:03
  So if I can share it from that place of I'm not asking you to tell me I'm okay and
• 20:09
  I'm not like I don't know, op it's it's not the feeling of I'm opening up this
• 20:15
  pussy wound and I think it's disgusting.
• 20:17
  It's more like,
• 20:19
  Shana James: Hey, here's this, you know, part of me.
• 20:22
  Jason Lange: yeah.
• 20:23
  Shana James: And I've come to at least accept it, hopefully love myself or have compassion for
• 20:29
  myself.
• 20:30
  Can you have that with me as well?
• 20:32
  And I think that puts you in so much more of a position of power, right?
• 20:38
  Power with, not power over, too, because then you're like, yeah, I'm good.
• 20:44
  I'm good.
• 20:45
  And if you're not okay with it.
• 20:48
  Shana James: I I don't make it mean that there's something wrong with me.
• 20:51
  So I don't put up with shit.
• 20:52
  I don't put up with blaming and
• 20:54
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 20:55
  Shana James: attacking and all of that.
• 20:56
  And I also don't have to, on the other end, sort of just be unloved and not share
• 21:02
  all those deep parts of me that nobody's ever seen, because I think that means
• 21:08
  someone's not gonna love me.
• 21:10
  Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that's such a potent those are potent examples.
• 21:14
  And I see this in men.
• 21:16
  And I actually, this is one of the things I I bring to men in terms of why I'm such
• 21:23
  a steamroller when it comes to men's groups and men's community.
• 21:28
  because I also think one of the things that changes for us guys that vulnerable
• 21:35
  share is has it ever been shared anywhere else?
• 21:39
  Shana James: Mm,
• 21:40
  Shana James: mm-hmm.
• 21:40
  Jason Lange: And what
• 21:40
  Jason Lange: I mean by that is like, you know, a lot of guys I work with, they come in, you
• 21:44
  know, whether they're married or single, their peer relationships have just
• 21:49
  flatlined, right?
• 21:50
  They've
• 21:51
  Shana James: Totally.
• 21:52
  Yep.
• 21:53
  Jason Lange: prioritized work, maybe spouse, kids.
• 21:55
  And so when they get dysregulated, the only person they often feel comfortable
• 22:01
  bringing it to is their partner.
• 22:03
  my God, I work, this might happen, or I'm feeling this, or I'm feeling that.
• 22:09
  Jason Lange: And you know, as a as a professional who's done this and as someone who obviously
• 22:13
  likes to be present for others in my life, it feels different once when there's an
• 22:18
  energetic sense that, wow, someone's asking me to hold something that they can't
• 22:22
  hold themselves and have nowhere else to go with.
• 22:25
  It's
• 22:26
  Shana James: Right.
• 22:27
  Yep.
• 22:28
  Jason Lange: like, that feels like a a burden, you know, sometimes.
• 22:32
  Jason Lange: And you know, I I choose it sometimes consciously, but in in terms of
• 22:36
  relationships, I think that can be pretty intimidating, you know, for a partner.
• 22:41
  But the same thing, and you know, this is something I definitely experienced with
• 22:46
  my wife.
• 22:46
  The same thing when I'm like, hey, here's this crunchy thing going on for me where
• 22:51
  I'm struggling, where I'm struggling in our relationship.
• 22:55
  It's really hard right now.
• 22:57
  And my guys are helping me figure it out.
• 22:59
  Suddenly she's like,
• 23:01
  Jason Lange: And then she's like all down to be with me and like help me and but there's this
• 23:04
  feeling of it's not all on her to manage.
• 23:06
  Shana James: It's not all on her yeah.
• 23:08
  Jason Lange: And I think that's a skill we have to build, particularly as men, to because
• 23:12
  otherwise I've had enough guys experience like, I tried the vulnerable thing with
• 23:16
  my partner and she didn't know what to do with it and kind of shut me down.
• 23:20
  And
• 23:21
  Shana James: Yes.
• 23:22
  Yes.
• 23:24
  Yep.
• 23:26
  Jason Lange: now I'm like doubly scarred around sharing it again.
• 23:28
  Shana James: Totally.
• 23:29
  Totally.
• 23:30
  Shana James: Which is why I often I I think of sometimes the work I do with men as human
• 23:34
  practice, because it's like, okay, say it here first.
• 23:38
  Say it in such a way that you don't get stopped yourself, right?
• 23:42
  It's like you can be vulnerable, yes, with your partner.
• 23:45
  And I I highly recommend that.
• 23:47
  But if you're saying something like you said for the first time, you may not know
• 23:52
  that suddenly you're gonna have this wave of grief or
• 23:56
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 23:56
  Shana James: this
• 23:56
  Shana James: intense fiery anger or all these things, or that you may not even be able to get it
• 24:01
  out of your mouth.
• 24:03
  And so right, what is it like to then practice where we can slow it down and where
• 24:08
  I can say, okay, what's happening right now?
• 24:11
  Like what what is really happening?
• 24:14
  Cause you just got really quiet or, you know, you just seem to check out or like,
• 24:20
  let's really work this through.
• 24:22
  So then when you go back to your partner, you can say,
• 24:26
  Shana James: Or you could be a little more grounded, right?
• 24:27
  You're less thrown,
• 24:28
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 24:29
  Shana James: you're less kind of like the waves on the top of the ocean and you're sitting a
• 24:34
  little bit deeper in this place of okay, I I got myself and I'm also willing to
• 24:40
  reveal and be in partnership and do this together, but I'm not just throwing it at
• 24:45
  you.
• 24:46
  Jason Lange: that yeah they I I can even just feel the somatic sense of being tossed by the wave
• 24:50
  versus you know having a little bit of an anchor like yeah
• 24:53
  Shana James: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:54
  Jason Lange: yeah I'm in a storm right now and I'm figuring it out and I'm inviting you in
• 25:02
  because
• 25:03
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 25:03
  Jason Lange: I want to feel close to you.
• 25:05
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 25:05
  Yeah.
• 25:05
  And I want to speak to that reality that women don't always know how to hold a
• 25:11
  man's vulnerability.
• 25:12
  It's not something we're trained in in this culture because most men aren't even
• 25:18
  trained or like allowed, you know, as they're growing up to be vulnerable.
• 25:23
  And so I do work with women as well sometimes to be like, okay, let's pause and
• 25:28
  just notice that you might have.
• 25:31
  Shana James: Disgust come up, you might have anger, you might have fear.
• 25:35
  I think oftentimes what's underneath that, I spoke to this in my TEDx talk also, is
• 25:42
  the fear that I'm not gonna be okay if my rock suddenly dissolves into mush.
• 25:48
  But when you, as the one who has been the rock, knows, you know what, I am this,
• 25:54
  you know.
• 25:55
  Shana James: creature that can like form and reform and change.
• 25:57
  You know, I can be a rock and then I can be flowing water and then I can be fire
• 26:02
  and I can be a rock.
• 26:03
  Like I'm not losing myself.
• 26:05
  I'm just sharing different parts of myself.
• 26:07
  So if she has a reaction and she's like, shit, instead of taking it personally and
• 26:12
  now being like, there's something wrong with me, you get to be like, I can see that
• 26:16
  that scares you.
• 26:17
  You know, I want you to know I'm not going anywhere.
• 26:20
  And and just from my personal experience, I will say as I've
• 26:24
  Shana James: practice this with men in my own relationships.
• 26:27
  I mean, my partner, he is so much more, I don't know, he he's like, he's stronger,
• 26:33
  he's clearer, he's, he's happier in these parts of himself where he's like, I've
• 26:39
  never been able to share this with anyone.
• 26:42
  And he yet, there's this way that he's resting more in his power because he doesn't
• 26:48
  have to hide those parts of himself.
• 26:51
  Jason Lange: That and that phrase, you know, I I've never been able to share this with anyone,
• 26:57
  and the empowerment I
• 26:59
  Shana James: Yes.
• 26:59
  Jason Lange: think that comes on the other side of the lived experience of and now I have.
• 27:03
  And
• 27:04
  Shana James: Mm-hmm.
• 27:05
  Jason Lange: guess what?
• 27:05
  I'm okay, right?
• 27:06
  I didn't die.
• 27:06
  Like the the
• 27:07
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 27:07
  I didn't die.
• 27:09
  Jason Lange: whatever that fear or shame was, you know, didn't play out like my nightmare
• 27:14
  scenario.
• 27:14
  Like you know, rarely does it can happen, but I
• 27:18
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 27:18
  Yeah.
• 27:19
  Jason Lange: in in the types of spaces we're talking about, it's not so much a thing.
• 27:22
  And I see that, yeah, I I it's like filling up.
• 27:24
  Like it literally I'm able to take up more space when this thing I was holding in
• 27:27
  fear or shame
• 27:28
  Shana James: Yes.
• 27:29
  Totally.
• 27:31
  Jason Lange: is now not gripping me in the same way.
• 27:32
  So
• 27:33
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 27:34
  Yeah.
• 27:35
  Jason Lange: much more frankly, just life force is how I've experienced it in the shadow work.
• 27:41
  Shana James: I love that word.
• 27:42
  Yes.
• 27:42
  Life force.
• 27:44
  Shana James: That's a great that's a great expression or a great way to to speak of it.
• 27:49
  Jason Lange: 'Cause now it can flow instead of you know, as often is the case for me, being used
• 27:55
  to like grip.
• 27:56
  It's like
• 27:57
  Shana James: Right.
• 27:58
  Shana James: And then the men come back to me and say things like, I'm doing less than ever, and
• 28:03
  women are more attracted to me than ever.
• 28:05
  Right.
• 28:06
  It's like there because there is that life force and that energy instead of that
• 28:11
  I'm gonna shrink myself to try to make everybody else around me uncomfortable or
• 28:16
  not offend someone.
• 28:17
  And then that, yeah, I had that, you know, many, many guys come back to me and say,
• 28:23
  like, it's so weird.
• 28:24
  It's like,
• 28:25
  Shana James: I'm not doing all the things or playing all the games I was taught to play, but
• 28:29
  there's something happening.
• 28:31
  And I'm like, yes, that, that is your freedom and your power.
• 28:35
  And that that true sense of freedom and power, not something that you're putting on
• 28:40
  or trying to become.
• 28:42
  Jason Lange: Yeah, and you know, it strikes me we're we're pretty deep in here, but I haven't
• 28:44
  asked this in a straightforward way, but yeah, what
• 28:46
  Shana James: Okay.
• 28:48
  Jason Lange: would you, how would you define or speak to, you know, power and when someone's in
• 28:53
  it and when someone's not?
• 28:55
  Shana James: Yeah,
• 28:56
  Shana James: that's a great question.
• 28:57
  I mean, I often think of true confidence.
• 29:01
  So let me start there as the capacity to roll with, you know, and stay true to
• 29:07
  yourself as whatever comes your way.
• 29:10
  Right.
• 29:10
  It's like, okay, I may not know the answer here, but I'm gonna trust myself enough
• 29:17
  that I can find it, or we can we can be together in this in the unknown, right?
• 29:23
  Versus
• 29:24
  Shana James: I've got to know everything.
• 29:25
  I've got to be an expert at everything.
• 29:28
  You know, I think about it as like that kind of relational leadership or inspiring
• 29:33
  leadership versus dominant leadership, right?
• 29:35
  Where, you know, you want to have the people in the room who can contribute.
• 29:40
  You don't have to be the smartest person in the room, and it's not all about your
• 29:45
  ego.
• 29:45
  So confidence, right?
• 29:46
  And then when I think about power, I mean, I think about that sense of choice and
• 29:51
  agency, right?
• 29:52
  Like.
• 29:53
  Shana James: I know that I can I can take up space, I can act, I can co-create with other people
• 30:03
  from a place of my own honesty, and from a sense of, yeah, like we were saying,
• 30:13
  that the freedom to be fully here, to bring all of my life force,
• 30:22
  Shana James: And then there is that like red the power with.
• 30:24
  It's like I can create the impact that I want to create in the world that is for
• 30:29
  the good of myself and others, you know, hopefully.
• 30:32
  That's that's the perspective.
• 30:34
  I think again in this day and age, it doesn't seem like that.
• 30:38
  It often power often seems very self-serving.
• 30:41
  But I think if we're looking at true power, it's how do I create good, you know, in
• 30:46
  the world around
• 30:47
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 30:48
  Shana James: me.
• 30:48
  Jason Lange: I l I love that and that
• 30:51
  Jason Lange: I think you just filled in some missing pieces for me around for a long time I
• 30:54
  would say, you know, to be in your power, particularly for men, is just to be able
• 30:58
  to move toward what you want.
• 30:59
  Doesn't mean you can you get it, but it's the I'm able to move
• 31:02
  Shana James: Mm.
• 31:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:03
  Yeah.
• 31:03
  But you can move.
• 31:06
  Jason Lange: towards what I desire and want.
• 31:08
  And I think you just added another layer I really like, which is while
• 31:14
  simultaneously not having to dominate anyone else or abandon myself.
• 31:20
  Shana James: Yes.
• 31:21
  Jason Lange: Right.
• 31:21
  So I'm not having to take away your power to get what I want.
• 31:24
  And I'm not
• 31:25
  Shana James: Mm-hmm.
• 31:25
  Jason Lange: giving away mine, you know, to to get what I want.
• 31:27
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 31:28
  Yeah.
• 31:30
  Jason Lange: I think is such a beautiful frame for it.
• 31:32
  And then the, you know, certainly what I think maybe we can just anchor into the
• 31:37
  field here as an intention of to, you know, expand the definition to really being
• 31:42
  about how much can you empower those around you.
• 31:45
  The more you're in your power, the more you're actually.
• 31:49
  Jason Lange: in some ways just giving away your power so it flows to other people.
• 31:51
  And to me,
• 31:52
  Shana James: Totally.
• 31:53
  Yep.
• 31:54
  Jason Lange: that's an incredibly powerful person, right?
• 31:56
  When I see someone graciously a teacher or a friend or someone say, hey, I have
• 31:59
  this power and I'm going to flow some of it your way so you can have more agency in
• 32:03
  the world.
• 32:03
  And
• 32:04
  Shana James: Use it in service.
• 32:07
  Mm hmm.
• 32:08
  Yeah.
• 32:09
  Jason Lange: again, not while they're not abandoning themselves in the process, but I just
• 32:12
  Shana James: Right.
• 32:13
  Jason Lange: like, man, we need some more leaders like that right now.
• 32:15
  Shana James: Yes, we do.
• 32:15
  And I love what you just said, right?
• 32:18
  Because when you're when you're flowing your power to others, there is it it
• 32:23
  regenerates, right?
• 32:24
  We get back from that as long as we're
• 32:27
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 32:27
  Shana James: not overgiving and, you know, completely losing ourselves in the process, which
• 32:31
  goes back to I think you were saying before, like vulnerability also including
• 32:36
  softness.
• 32:37
  And I remember I had the thought, it also kind of includes that grounding, right?
• 32:41
  Like I'm I'm seated here versus I'm
• 32:44
  Shana James: losing myself or giving
• 32:45
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 32:46
  Shana James: of myself so much that then I've got nothing left.
• 32:50
  And then neither of us, if we're in a two-person dynamic, has me there, right?
• 32:57
  Jason Lange: Yeah, okay.
• 32:57
  And my eyes literally going to the book behind you, honest sex.
• 33:02
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 33:03
  Jason Lange: And so first question that just comes to mind here, what what what's something that
• 33:08
  might surprise most people about how honesty
• 33:11
  Shana James: Mm.
• 33:12
  Jason Lange: and sex relate?
• 33:16
  Shana James: I mean, I'm thinking about how one of the sections is how to talk about sex in a
• 33:20
  way that doesn't kill your sex life.
• 33:22
  I think you and I and the people we spend time with wouldn't necessarily be
• 33:27
  surprised, but I think many people are surprised that you can have conversations
• 33:31
  that actually spark desire and create more attraction.
• 33:34
  Just thinking about a conversation I was having with my partner about, you know,
• 33:39
  one of his desires around
• 33:41
  Shana James: role play or something.
• 33:42
  And I was like making all these jokes.
• 33:44
  I'm like, I could dress up like an astronaut, you know.
• 33:47
  And he was like, you know, we were just the joke of like I would be completely
• 33:52
  covered over, like with this big helmet and this big suit or just the fact that
• 33:56
  like you can play with these conversations.
• 33:58
  When when you find a place from which there is, I'm not gonna say no shame, but
• 34:03
  less shame, right?
• 34:04
  Where you are sovereign in yourself and you're able to say like
• 34:08
  Shana James: This is a desire I have, and this is what it could look like.
• 34:12
  And going back to something we were talking about before, I look at it as two sides
• 34:17
  of a coin, right?
• 34:18
  There's the desire and there's the complaint.
• 34:21
  And so if the complaint is, hey, our sex life isn't spicy enough, the desire would
• 34:26
  be, I started thinking about what might be exciting for me, or I'd like to talk
• 34:32
  about what could be exciting for you.
• 34:34
  And so having some of those conversations that spark.
• 34:38
  Shana James: new ideas that spark some of that fire.
• 34:40
  so many people think of it like, well, I'm gonna kill my sex.
• 34:44
  I'm gonna dull it, right?
• 34:46
  Or I'm gonna over talk about it.
• 34:48
  And then it the spark's gonna die.
• 34:50
  So yeah, I think the surprise can be that you can you can create that spark with
• 34:55
  the conversations.
• 34:57
  Jason Lange: I I I I love that so simple and I'm just thinking through my memory Rolodex.
• 35:02
  I'm like, yeah, no, totally.
• 35:04
  Jason Lange: It's it's it's funny how once we get to that place, it's the word that's coming up
• 35:08
  is it's quite generative.
• 35:09
  Like more energy comes
• 35:11
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 35:11
  Yes.
• 35:12
  Jason Lange: out of it than I ever imagined of like I thought this was gonna be scary and like
• 35:16
  really painful, but no, actually like once we just
• 35:20
  Shana James: Right.
• 35:20
  It actually can be
• 35:21
  Jason Lange: get it out there, it starts to be playful and fun and the energy just
• 35:25
  Shana James: Yes.
• 35:25
  Jason Lange: starts to move.
• 35:26
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 35:26
  Yeah.
• 35:26
  One of my favorite parts in the book is the debrief.
• 35:29
  and so I talk about like before, during,
• 35:32
  Shana James: and after sex.
• 35:32
  You can talk about it at any point.
• 35:34
  There's different aspects or ways of talking about it that tend to work in these
• 35:39
  different moments.
• 35:40
  And I guide people to debrief after sex, whether it's, you know, it could be a day
• 35:45
  later, it doesn't have to be immediately, but really talking about like what did we
• 35:50
  what did let's say if I'm asking you, right?
• 35:52
  What did you enjoy?
• 35:54
  Shana James: What was good about it for you?
• 35:55
  So it really starts off on this, you know, positive.
• 35:58
  What would you
• 35:59
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 36:00
  Shana James: have wanted more of instead of what didn't you like?
• 36:02
  Because that also
• 36:03
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 36:03
  Shana James: gears us more toward the positive.
• 36:05
  And then, you know, what's something vulnerable that you didn't say or couldn't say?
• 36:10
  And I find like people think
• 36:12
  Jason Lange: Yeah,
• 36:13
  Shana James: it's odd, but if you're hoping that your sex life is going to get better over time
• 36:17
  and you're not talking about those moments that went under the radar that
• 36:22
  Shana James: Turned someone off or had someone be like, ooh, I didn't like that or that didn't
• 36:27
  work for me.
• 36:28
  And if you're not talking about what was exciting and being able to build more on
• 36:33
  that, it's like a hope and pray situation.
• 36:36
  Jason Lange: Totally.
• 36:37
  Yeah.
• 36:38
  Yeah.
• 36:39
  Jason Lange: It's kind of just hoping the weather will change
• 36:42
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 36:43
  Jason Lange: when you don't really have any way to directly address it.
• 36:45
  And I
• 36:46
  Shana James: Yes.
• 36:46
  Jason Lange: I've been shocked, you know, how challenging it can be for these kinds of
• 36:50
  conversations.
• 36:51
  You know, probably the place I've seen it the most challenging are partners who
• 36:56
  have been together a long
• 36:58
  Shana James: Long time.
• 37:00
  Jason Lange: Where there's just like, you know, 20, 30, sometimes 40 years of habit and stuff
• 37:08
  unspoken that
• 37:10
  Shana James: Mm-hmm.
• 37:12
  Yes.
• 37:14
  Jason Lange: sometimes frankly feels a little insurmountable to partners when they come in of
• 37:18
  like, I just I don't see a way out of this.
• 37:21
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 37:21
  And like you said, I think it's really powerful to be able to know what those
• 37:25
  moments are, know what the sort of the ick is or the like, this is where I can't
• 37:29
  see.
• 37:29
  I think in in the authentic relating days, we talked about it like as a plane of
• 37:34
  glass, right?
• 37:34
  There's all this paint that you're throwing on the glass.
• 37:38
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 37:38
  Shana James: You can't even see your partner.
• 37:40
  And then with someone like you or me, we can actually talk about those moments and
• 37:46
  those situations and clear.
• 37:48
  Shana James: them so you don't have to do it all with your partner.
• 37:50
  Some of them I think it's helpful, but maybe not all if you've got 40 or 50 of them.
• 37:54
  Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:55
  Shana James: Right.
• 37:55
  And then to also be able to find where what was your role in that situation?
• 38:01
  Because it's a dance between two people.
• 38:05
  And that's where I find people are empowered.
• 38:09
  If I know, that thing happened and
• 38:12
  Shana James: She or he touched me in a way that I didn't like.
• 38:15
  And then I realized, like, he's not paying attention to me.
• 38:18
  She's not paying attention to me.
• 38:20
  But now I see, I never said anything.
• 38:23
  I never showed that it was a problem.
• 38:25
  and we're getting into tricky territory.
• 38:28
  So I don't want to like say anything, right?
• 38:31
  That's gonna have someone be like, well, it's always her fault, always his fault.
• 38:36
  No.
• 38:36
  But we've got to start to see how did I also create some of that?
• 38:40
  Not that I'm, you know.
• 38:42
  Shana James: I I'm not taking full responsibility like there's there was nobody else there, but
• 38:46
  we're in this dynamic.
• 38:47
  And how do we not blame each other?
• 38:49
  But then see, look at this is the cycle we get into.
• 38:52
  I don't say anything.
• 38:53
  You pull away because you get nervous, cause I get more quiet, then
• 38:57
  Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.
• 38:58
  Shana James: I get pissed.
• 38:59
  And right, we go through this whole cycle and then we lose each other.
• 39:05
  Jason Lange: Yeah, that's so so well put in you know, I think we talked about on your show
• 39:10
  Violet and Ice for a long time was the wall and the grenade.
• 39:13
  I
• 39:14
  Shana James: Yes.
• 39:14
  Jason Lange: would just, you know, get the the immovable, untalking wall and she would have to
• 39:18
  amp up until a grenade to burst through.
• 39:21
  But what I really love about what you say is the is more and more bell I've been
• 39:25
  ringing of man, I think this is just the whole thing of, you know, that capacity to
• 39:30
  take responsibility.
• 39:32
  Shana James: Mm-hmm.
• 39:32
  Jason Lange: For
• 39:32
  Jason Lange: and with just willingness to look at what's ours.
• 39:35
  And with most men I work with and you know, occasional couples, you know, my belief
• 39:40
  is yeah, it's never really 100% any partners.
• 39:43
  It's always co-created because
• 39:46
  Shana James: Mm-mm.
• 39:47
  Yep.
• 39:48
  Jason Lange: even if you know, the thing itself is happening on your end, I'm still choosing to
• 39:53
  be with you in that, right?
• 39:54
  There's a way I'm choosing that over and over.
• 39:57
  So I have some responsibility in that.
• 39:59
  And
• 40:00
  Jason Lange: Every conversation I've ever had with my intimate partner, my wife for sure, if I
• 40:06
  start with my side, she is way more willing
• 40:10
  Shana James: Yes.
• 40:11
  Jason Lange: to meet me in that kind of vulnerable, uncertain, sometimes crunchy, challenging
• 40:16
  place.
• 40:17
  But if I come come in with you always,
• 40:20
  Shana James: You
• 40:21
  Jason Lange: that's just game over from the start.
• 40:24
  And it's actually rarely true.
• 40:26
  I like to think it's true.
• 40:29
  Jason Lange: If the times I have brought it then, you know, of course you can come back with
• 40:32
  evidence of times where it was not that.
• 40:34
  And I'm like, wait,
• 40:35
  Shana James: Right.
• 40:35
  Right.
• 40:36
  Jason Lange: you're right.
• 40:36
  This is my projection about what I think.
• 40:38
  What I do know is
• 40:39
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 40:39
  And every
• 40:41
  Shana James: yeah, every human I work with is like, but do I have to go first or like do I you
• 40:44
  know, or if it's a man, he's like, Why do men always have to do and women, why do
• 40:47
  women always have to this?
• 40:47
  And you know, and I'm like,
• 40:49
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 40:50
  Shana James: it's not that, but it is whoever can bring more consciousness to a moment, you
• 40:54
  know, you get to you get to lead.
• 40:56
  And
• 40:57
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 40:57
  Shana James: ideally you end up in a relationship with two people who can both lead and then two
• 41:03
  people who are both willing to come along.
• 41:07
  Shana James: and take responsibility.
• 41:08
  And if that's not the case, you know, there often is some work to do or some people
• 41:13
  realize this isn't the relationship, right?
• 41:16
  Some people grow out of each other because one partner really wants to consciously
• 41:20
  engage and the other partner is completely unwilling.
• 41:24
  And I've seen that happen too.
• 41:26
  Jason Lange: I love it, yeah.
• 41:28
  Jason Lange: I feel like you just spoke to we have a mutual friend Robert who was telling me
• 41:32
  this phrase he got from someone he was studying with.
• 41:34
  And I feel like you just named the other side of it.
• 41:37
  And he was like, Yeah, in every relationship, each partner has to be able to
• 41:41
  regress into vulnerability
• 41:43
  Shana James: Mm.
• 41:43
  Jason Lange: in the sense of like a younger, sometimes less conscious, less disoriented place.
• 41:48
  which means sometimes the other partner has to be able to kind of just step in with
• 41:53
  a little bit of more consciousness of like, hey, that that thing we
• 41:58
  Jason Lange: We do feel like it's happening now,
• 42:00
  Shana James: Is happening.
• 42:00
  Yep.
• 42:01
  Jason Lange: right?
• 42:01
  And if both partners have the capacity to kind of play that role sometimes, it's
• 42:07
  really seems like sky's the limit so far, at least in my
• 42:11
  Shana James: Totally.
• 42:11
  Jason Lange: experience.
• 42:12
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 42:12
  Yeah.
• 42:12
  And I talk about mature honesty, like in the book Honest Sex, the whole first part
• 42:18
  is about honesty and that the deepening of honesty, going to those deeper layers
• 42:23
  instead of, you know, it's about the garbage, it's about the kids, it's about the
• 42:28
  money, it's usually about a way of feeling unsupported or misunderstood or right,
• 42:34
  those kinds of things.
• 42:35
  And so if you start having honest conversations from a deeper place.
• 42:40
  Shana James: Like you said, then you're not pointing the finger, you're you're actually looking
• 42:44
  at and taking responsibility for what's going on.
• 42:47
  Then that's the kind of honesty that creates more passion and has people feel more
• 42:52
  safe.
• 42:53
  Cause we're not we don't open our
• 42:55
  Jason Lange: Mm.
• 42:55
  Shana James: bodies to each other if we're not feeling safe.
• 42:58
  Maybe that's not true.
• 42:59
  Eventually we stop, right?
• 43:01
  There can be a thrill in the moment.
• 43:04
  Shana James: Or if you like that kind of play and you wanna, you know, play with kink and all of
• 43:09
  that and BDSM and like consciously that works and you can choose that.
• 43:13
  But for
• 43:14
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 43:14
  Shana James: a long-term relationship, especially, you know, if we don't feel that kind of
• 43:18
  safety, we're not going to open up.
• 43:20
  And then I think about Esther Perel's work, right?
• 43:23
  It's like we need that safety and the excitement.
• 43:26
  But I think most often the excitement in a long-term relationship doesn't happen
• 43:31
  without that sense of feeling safe, especially.
• 43:34
  Shana James: I think especially for women, but maybe it's for everybody.
• 43:37
  Jason Lange: Yeah, I've been I I would definitely speak to I think that's a way bigger thing for
• 43:41
  a lot of men than most people realize
• 43:43
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 43:44
  Yeah.
• 43:45
  Jason Lange: that what it means for them to feel safe emotionally
• 43:48
  Shana James: Mm, mm-hmm.
• 43:49
  Jason Lange: in the relationship and even sexually, right?
• 43:50
  With the pressures of E D and P E and I
• 43:52
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 43:53
  Yeah.
• 43:54
  Jason Lange: gotta da da da da or I gotta give her an orgasm and all that.
• 43:57
  and I would totally agree.
• 43:58
  You know, I've I've obviously spent a lot of
• 44:01
  Jason Lange: Time in the kind of polarity workshop world.
• 44:04
  And you know, there's so much there.
• 44:06
  And the truth is, I mean, you can learn most of it in a workshop.
• 44:10
  Like it, that's not super hard.
• 44:13
  What always in every client I've worked with gets in the way is the lack of safety.
• 44:18
  So
• 44:19
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 44:20
  Jason Lange: it's super easy to go into so I've never met someone, we're super polarized, it's
• 44:24
  great, no problem, right?
• 44:25
  So
• 44:26
  Jason Lange: It's now I'm in front of my wife who I have nine plus years of history with,
• 44:31
  Shana James: Yes.
• 44:32
  Jason Lange: and whatever isn't feeling safe between us, that becomes the limiting factor for
• 44:36
  how much or you know how I I just put this recently on a a podcast
• 44:40
  Shana James: That's beautiful, yes.
• 44:41
  Jason Lange: is there's no there's no space for erotic tension if there's tension between us.
• 44:45
  Like that's it.
• 44:46
  So the more
• 44:47
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 44:47
  I love that.
• 44:49
  That's brilliant.
• 44:52
  Jason Lange: the more particularly for us men, the more tension I have in my
• 44:55
  Jason Lange: body for one, you're gonna feel the moment you're with me, like, my God, he's wound
• 45:00
  up.
• 45:00
  It's probably not gonna invite you into the most relaxed state of your body.
• 45:05
  Shana James: No, that is brilliant,
• 45:06
  Shana James: right?
• 45:06
  That interplay between tension and erotic tension.
• 45:08
  I love that.
• 45:09
  Jason Lange: Right.
• 45:09
  And
• 45:10
  Jason Lange: then if there's unspoken stuff between us, so I'm not feeling safe, or you're not
• 45:14
  feeling safe, or there's resentments, there's there's no space for the erotic
• 45:18
  attention to really flow.
• 45:19
  So it's it's it's fun, it's sexy to get on Instagram and learn the polarity stuff,
• 45:24
  but then it always comes back to, I think what you're talking about is this much
• 45:28
  deeper, mature work to hey, what does it mean to really create safety between us so
• 45:32
  we can talk about these things?
• 45:34
  Because
• 45:35
  Jason Lange: Like we said with even just talking about our our our sexual desires or
• 45:39
  dissatisfactions.
• 45:40
  Once it starts moving, then the energy starts moving.
• 45:43
  my god, now this is fun to talk about now, right?
• 45:46
  Like suddenly this thing that was a place of dread is like playful.
• 45:50
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 45:50
  And it can be vulnerable too.
• 45:52
  But again, I the one of the examples I gave in the book was one person saying, you
• 45:58
  know, I want to play with ropes, and then the other person saying, No, that's not
• 46:04
  me, or I don't do that.
• 46:05
  Right.
• 46:06
  And the difference between that kind of I call it immature honesty versus the
• 46:11
  mature honesty of, ooh, that scares me, or I have this bad memory, or, you know,
• 46:17
  some way of being able to reveal.
• 46:20
  Shana James: this is what's going on for me over here.
• 46:22
  How we create a win-win?
• 46:24
  Right.
• 46:24
  As opposed to just shutting your partner down and being like, that's gross, or I
• 46:29
  don't do that, or that's not for, you know, that's not what a strong man would do.
• 46:35
  It's like, oof, that's just, you know, you're cutting off someone's balls or
• 46:40
  whatever.
• 46:40
  You're you're like really shutting someone down.
• 46:43
  Now the on the other side of that.
• 46:46
  Shana James: If you find that place of sovereignty in yourself where you can say, wow, that that
• 46:51
  was harsh, honey.
• 46:52
  I'm not gonna actually take that on, right?
• 46:54
  Like that's stung.
• 46:55
  I'm gonna feel it.
• 46:56
  I might have to go process it with some other people.
• 47:00
  But I actually
• 47:01
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 47:02
  Shana James: do know that there's a difference between what you just said and who I actually am.
• 47:10
  Jason Lange: Just feeling the well radiate through my nervous system difference between what you
• 47:13
  said and who I actually am.
• 47:14
  Like talk about power.
• 47:15
  Wow.
• 47:15
  Being
• 47:16
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 47:16
  Yeah.
• 47:17
  Right.
• 47:19
  Jason Lange: able to feel that.
• 47:19
  That yeah, I I know.
• 47:20
  You know, I'm open to feedback.
• 47:22
  I'm open to hearing from you.
• 47:23
  And
• 47:24
  Shana James: And
• 47:26
  Jason Lange: and I there's a difference here.
• 47:27
  And I'm not gonna yeah.
• 47:28
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 47:28
  There's a boundary.
• 47:29
  There's a there's a clarity here.
• 47:30
  Yeah.
• 47:31
  Jason Lange: I'm not gonna collapse into that.
• 47:33
  Man, wow.
• 47:34
  That's exciting to just.
• 47:36
  Shana James: Right.
• 47:36
  Like your disgust
• 47:38
  Shana James: doesn't mean I'm disgusting.
• 47:38
  Your disgust.
• 47:38
  There's so much more underneath
• 47:39
  Jason Lange: Yeah, totally.
• 47:42
  Shana James: that disgust.
• 47:42
  And usually I think it goes into a kind of fear or lack of safety or those kinds of
• 47:48
  things.
• 47:49
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 47:49
  Jason Lange: And I mean the power of that, you know, I just feel and can feel in certain moments
• 47:54
  both ways in my relationship of when one or one partner can hold that deeper place
• 48:00
  of okay, your disgust is not my disgust.
• 48:02
  if I'm not collapsing into that,
• 48:05
  Shana James: Mm-hmm.
• 48:06
  Jason Lange: what that actually allows is for me to hold a space for what's happening for you to
• 48:12
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 48:13
  Jason Lange: get closer.
• 48:14
  Shana James: Yep.
• 48:14
  Jason Lange: And more intimate with that without making me wrong or you wrong.
• 48:17
  And then lo and behold, the crazy thing is, if that can happen, like
• 48:22
  Shana James: Mm-hmm.
• 48:23
  Jason Lange: again, it's crazy how quickly that can turn into turn-on, actually, in a in a
• 48:26
  Shana James: Yes.
• 48:26
  Yes.
• 48:27
  Jason Lange: wild way, when it's like, wow, I'm not collapsing into that.
• 48:29
  I don't feel that, but something's really happening for you, and I really want to
• 48:33
  know about that.
• 48:34
  Shana James: Yeah.
• 48:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 48:36
  Jason Lange: And then I can be with that.
• 48:37
  Then it's like, my God, the the the moments can explode in in just
• 48:41
  Shana James: Totally.
• 48:42
  Jason Lange: really intimate ways.
• 48:43
  Shana James: Yes.
• 48:43
  Yeah.
• 48:43
  Like and in with pleasure and also with that sense of being known and understood
• 48:51
  and right, that deep intimacy you were talking about.
• 48:56
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 48:56
  Well, what a joyful conversation.
• 48:58
  I love this.
• 48:59
  What a so
• 49:00
  Shana James: This is fun.
• 49:02
  Jason Lange: easy, easy to talk with you.
• 49:03
  I feel like we could go for on for more hours.
• 49:05
  So we'll definitely do it again.
• 49:07
  but I wanna make sure everyone listening here knows kind of how to connect with you
• 49:11
  and follow what you're up to.
• 49:12
  And you you have a a a new offering in particular I want you to highlight.
• 49:16
  So I wanna just turn it over to you for a moment.
• 49:19
  Shana James: Yeah, I've been working on this for a while.
• 49:21
  I just finished it's called the Honest Dating Guide.
• 49:24
  And it really goes through a way that since my divorce, I started dating in a new
• 49:29
  way.
• 49:29
  And I and I really I was having experiences where I was like, This is actually fun
• 49:34
  and enjoyable and I'm meeting great people.
• 49:37
  You know, I would I didn't f I I had some relationships.
• 49:40
  I didn't find like my who I would call my life partner until four years ago, which
• 49:45
  was maybe ten years after my divorce, but
• 49:48
  Shana James: I was really enjoying it and I started looking at like, why am I enjoying this and
• 49:52
  believing that love can happen?
• 49:54
  You know, there were moments, of course, where I doubted it, but when other people
• 49:59
  are out there feeling miserable and defeated and anxious.
• 50:03
  And so I realized that I was I had created or started living this new way of dating
• 50:07
  that was really based in being honest and, you know, not having to make anybody
• 50:12
  wrong, but actually recognizing, maybe we're not a fit for each other.
• 50:16
  But
• 50:17
  Shana James: Maybe we are a fit for something else.
• 50:19
  So there's a lot of nuances in there of like what are we committing to, as opposed
• 50:24
  to like, yes, we're gonna be committed or not.
• 50:27
  and how to start out a date in a way where two people can actually be on the same
• 50:32
  page instead of just sort of sitting in their own silos trying to impress, trying
• 50:37
  to prove, hoping you're gonna like me, and then that whole shit that goes on in our
• 50:42
  heads.
• 50:43
  And so I put that together in a in a guide.
• 50:46
  Shana James: And then I have a little companion course that walks you through the guide and I
• 50:48
  was gonna call it a cheat sheet, but I was like, that's not the right, that's not
• 50:51
  the right wording.
• 50:52
  It's like a one pager, you know, you can take on a date with you
• 50:55
  Jason Lange: Yeah.
• 50:59
  Shana James: so that you can really have this new way of dating that not only do you not feel
• 51:04
  exhausted and defeated, but you can actually have be building the foundations of
• 51:09
  creating real love and make it more likely to find real love.
• 51:14
  Jason Lange: I love that.
• 51:14
  How cool.
• 51:14
  Yeah, we'll definitely drop all that in the show notes.
• 51:17
  And such a pleasure being here with you.
• 51:19
  Definitely check out Shana, her book,
• 51:21
  Shana James: yes.
• 51:21
  Same, same.
• 51:22
  Jason Lange: her guide, her podcast.
• 51:23
  They're all really incredible stuff.
• 51:26
  And so, so grateful to have you as an ally in this world.
• 51:30
  Shana James: Mm.
• 51:30
  I'm grateful for you too.
• 51:32
  Thank you.
• 51:33
  Jason Lange: All right, until next time everybody.
• 51:35
  Shana James: Bye.