Latest / Take1.5 Podcast: Stories from the Messy In-between / Dr. Hyun Kim on Boundaries, Expectations & Self-Care | Let's Talk 마음이야기 EP 01

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Dr. Hyun Kim on Boundaries, Expectations & Self-Care | Let's Talk 마음이야기 EP 01 · Take1.5 Podcast: Stories from the Messy In-between

0:00
We don't have to be responsible for so many things.
0:05
I mean, and there's, you know, what is also called mixed
0:07
feelings, too. You are probably grateful and,
0:11
you know, feeling resentment, too.
0:14
You are probably very happy and glad that you came here.
0:18
And also, you know, grieving the losses of experiences that you
0:22
could have had in Korea. Like, I have a lot of feelings
0:26
when I talk about the experience as an immigrant child.
0:30
Something that I've that's always kind of suppressed me was
0:34
that idea of should and that responsibility.
0:37
Hi, this is your post Minlade. I'm excited to bring you a
0:40
mental health series. Let's talk Mauiaki.
0:45
The official name is Kenny Kim. I'm a clinical psychologist
0:49
practicing in New York and New Jersey.
0:51
I'm also an assistant professor at Columbia University Irving
0:55
Medical Center. Here I do research on sleep and
1:00
mood and brain functioning. And also you have a Korean book
1:05
published, Bound Pound Dirty. Right.
1:07
Yes, right. Yeah, Yeah.
1:08
As the name implies, it's a book about boundaries that we talk a
1:13
lot about these days in psychology and mental health.
1:16
It is a huge topic and a topic that's very complicated and hard
1:20
to understand. That's right.
1:21
It seems a bit abstract. So in my book, I really try to
1:26
put a lot of examples and in what different situations or
1:30
what dimensions of life we can apply boundaries.
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So when we first think about boundaries, we think about
1:35
relationships and like drawing boundaries between people.
1:40
But boundaries can be found like within my internal selves, like
1:45
my emotions, boundaries between work and life, and being more
1:51
aware of what I do have control over versus not.
1:54
So boundary is a very big concept, but it's very
1:57
applicable to different aspects of your life.
2:01
So you wrote the book in Korean? I did 100% Korean, 100% Wow.
2:08
And it was interesting because the title of the book is
2:13
Boundary or Boundaries, and your Korean title is still Power and
2:17
Dirty. Right.
2:19
So there's no word for boundary in Korean.
2:22
So I guess there is a very direct translation and we could
2:26
say something like konga son or kongae.
2:29
But I think I didn't really like the connotation.
2:33
It had the feeling or the initial impression of that word
2:37
because there's also a Korean saying that's like Oz hung and
2:41
then that we're drawing lines between you and me, me and other
2:44
people. And that's not really a positive
2:47
or very warm expression. So I wanted to specifically
2:53
tease that apart from drawing loud lines because I described
2:57
boundaries as more of a space. Like if you're thinking about
3:01
drawing boundaries, that's like pushing other people.
3:04
But I wanted to emphasize the concept of reserving space for
3:09
me. So saying, you know, saying yes
3:12
to myself doesn't necessarily mean saying no to other people.
3:17
It can be saying yes to myself and my values and inviting
3:21
people over. So I say that the ultimate goal
3:26
of boundaries is for me to have a stronger and more meaningful
3:31
connection with other people too, and for me to kind of save
3:35
up all that energy to be able to do that.
3:39
You're not wasting energy on something that's not important
3:42
for necessarily. Yeah, so that's why value is a
3:45
huge keyword in identifying and practicing your boundaries.
3:50
How important is space? Because my podcast, a 1.5
3:56
podcast and the tagline is always in from in between
4:00
spaces, right? Yes, we're in the in between
4:03
space. Like where?
4:04
What is that in between space exactly?
4:08
Yeah. So in terms of the concept of
4:10
boundaries, I think about that space as in I mean, it could
4:14
mean a lot of things. As you said, it could be
4:16
physical space, how I show up, but also mental space.
4:20
How much of A room flexibility do I have in terms of feeling
4:28
empowered, feeling authoritative about the things that I want to
4:33
do with my life? How do I make my life align with
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my values? And those are all within spaces
4:41
that we can practice. We often feel like we don't have
4:44
enough room or space because we feel like we don't have enough
4:49
options. We're not given with enough
4:51
control or empowerment. But so my invitation to just
4:59
people that I encounter and talking about boundaries is to
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think about, well, what are your realms, your ranges of options
5:07
that you can practice and really use your voice and decision
5:12
making. That that that really makes me
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ponder on many, many different things.
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I don't know, gives me some sort of affirmation or confidence
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that in 1.5 space is a mental space or emotional space and
5:30
that we could own it and empower it.
5:35
Yes, I like that word a lot. Ownership, empowerment, having
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authority. And I think that's something
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that as immigrants, as Korean Americans, we often forget about
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because we feel like, oh, we are in a different land, we are in a
5:55
different culture. So we have to kind of follow.
5:59
And something that I've learned over the years is that it's not
6:02
necessarily true. We can still feel empowered and
6:07
try to adapt to our new environment, but it doesn't
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really have to happen at the cost of the other.
6:12
So it doesn't have to be either this or that.
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We can be adjusting and adopting and feel empowered about my own
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identity and my own culture too. So it's that mutually exclusive,
6:25
Yes. Right, like when I talk about
6:28
boundaries with 1.5 and Korean Americans, I I want to also
6:36
emphasize that drawing boundaries should not come at
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the cost of you losing respect or relationship.
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The goal of boundaries is to enhance relationship and your
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presence in a community too. So OK so more context to this.
6:57
I've always just like being in academia.
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I'm AI, have multiple layers of minority hats and my current
7:04
work too. I'm Asian, I'm a female, younger
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than most people here, and I'm also a PhD in a Medical Center.
7:16
So in multiple ways I feel like I stand out.
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And for me to kind of compensate for not being a majority was to
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be very willing, very, I guess, polite, hard working, saying yes
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to everything in a way also like obedient to submissive.
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And I've felt I've thought that's my strength.
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And like throughout graduate, like I meant as a trainee,
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there's always a mindset of like, oh, I need to do, you
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know, take care of other things for the professors.
7:56
But up to a certain point that could be very valuable.
7:59
And hard working is kind of given we're, we already know
8:02
we're very hard working. But I think not drawing
8:06
boundaries is, you know, like you can be hard working and
8:10
practice boundaries at the same time.
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I think it's so easy to lose that, especially as a young
8:18
immigrant in this Korean American, in this country, we
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have so many more assets that we could offer, but just being yes
8:28
and being, you know, open minded about just doing everything,
8:33
being responsible. Those are not the only assets.
8:37
So I think it just makes us be more competent and empowering
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when we are able to say no to some of the requests that we're
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not willing to do, being able to speak up, which we're I'm still
8:53
not very good at that, but I've certainly learned ways that fits
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my personality and can be impactful.
9:03
So when somebody says something that's kind of, I guess,
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unintentionally ignorant, something that says something
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about my race or my, you know, I guess something that could
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offend women, I guess then instead of just like, ha, ha,
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laughing it off and just like being resentful and the inside,
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there are ways that we can speak up when people say things like,
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where are you from? Or like, do you speak English or
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like your English is so good or like, you know, things like
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that. There are ways that we can
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gently remind them that that's not how I want to be treated.
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So, you know, some of my key responses would be what do you
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mean? You know, like demeanor wise,
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I'm not being offensive, I'm not being aggressive.
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I am still being open minded. But what I'm saying is what
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you're saying is not connecting with me.
10:01
Help me out. Let's, you know, let's figure
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this out. But it's so easy for us to
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forget there is an in between where we still can be gentle and
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expressive at the same time. And it's not like we have.
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I just want to emphasize that we have so many other skill sets
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that we can offer in our professional areas other than
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our nice, gentle, kind of just like cute characteristics.
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So just really show that off in the professional setting too.
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That's if I could tell like a 20 year old version of me, then I
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think I would really emphasize that I don't have to sacrifice
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my time. I don't have to go overboard.
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Just open my boundaries to, you know, succeed in career.
10:56
I can balance both. That's so important and so good.
11:03
It's not easy. I'm not saying that it's easy,
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but it takes a practice. And I think sometimes it sounds
11:09
silly, but I even practice in front of the mirror.
11:13
Like you know about that comment that I heard over e-mail, I need
11:16
to talk about it with my colleague.
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How am I going to convey it? How am I going to, how am I
11:22
going to deliver it? So then I would practice saying
11:26
that in a very matter of fact way, in a very open minded
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attitude which can be combined kind of in your own style.
11:38
Wow, that's really good. That's really good.
11:41
Is it firm but something gentle? Exactly.
11:44
Yeah, that's such a high skill. It is, yeah.
11:48
That's good. It's a high skill that can be
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achieved. That's right.
11:52
Very doable. Very doable.
11:54
I like that a lot. So you're sitting in your office
12:01
in Columbia. I am at Columbia University.
12:03
Woohoo. Yeah.
12:04
I've. I've seen your interviews on
12:07
especially Korean media and you're fully fluent in Korean
12:12
and. Oh, thank you.
12:13
Yeah. But that's that's something that
12:15
I struggle with to, to be honest.
12:19
But I always just really liked writing.
12:21
So I guess writing in journals in Korean because that's what I
12:25
started with ever since I learned to write in Korean.
12:29
So I think that helped a lot. I still try to read books in
12:33
Korean. I prefer reading in Korean so
12:36
that I don't forget. Oh do.
12:39
You I I do, Yeah. And then, I don't know, it just
12:42
feels more like a leisure time for me because I read a lot of
12:45
things throughout the day. Yeah.
12:47
So switching to Korean mode, I guess it's more relaxing to me.
12:52
Yeah. But I was, I first started
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writing, I first started blogging in Korean during COVID
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because I wanted to give more mental health information to the
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Korean audience. So that's when I, I felt very
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self-conscious about my Korean writing.
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But I guess at that moment a lot of people weren't sleeping well.
13:15
And sleep is my area of expertise mental health.
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So I started, you know, Monica, like can't just like you can
13:22
just do it. It doesn't have to be perfect.
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Even if you're wrong on your like Machampa, people will get
13:29
it. And that's not that important if
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the substance of information is there.
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So I think that was my effort to also break that fear of being
13:39
wrong or being imperfect, but also do something that's more
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meaningful to me. It's like, well, would I miss
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this opportunity to do something that could be helpful to other
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people because I have this fear of not being perfect.
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And then, you know, with that question, the answer was no,
13:58
like that's fine. And then that's how I got to
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write a book in Korean because it started with blog post and
14:06
then and they added up. And then I got a message from
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the publisher asking if I would be interested in publishing
14:13
these. And to be honest, they did a lot
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of editing. Yeah, from the publisher too.
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So I think they really just, you know, made it much more, you
14:24
know, polished. Your research is right now
14:27
focused on sleep. Yeah.
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So I'm interested in the intersection of sleep or in
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interactions between sleep, mood and cognitive performance.
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I think sleep can be a gateway to access a lot of different and
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we call this, you know, broadly psychiatry or mental health,
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like even dementia, cognitive impairment, but depression,
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anxiety and like 1, I guess what we call trans diagnostic feature
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of these different mental health conditions is sleep.
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So it's a very easy topic to get into.
15:07
So like, we can talk about sleep with a lot of people.
15:10
Yeah, it may be a little harder to talk about mental health or
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suicidal ideation or you know what, some of the more, I guess,
15:18
reserved conservative populations.
15:20
But sleep, people can just talk about it all the time and
15:24
everybody's interested. So I'm, I'm trying to use sleep
15:29
as an Ave. to get to mental health of people of diverse
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populations. Wow.
15:35
Korean Americans, Yeah. Yeah, that's really amazing that
15:39
it's a gateway to, yes, many type different types of mental
15:44
health phobics, Huh, That's really interesting.
15:47
So what's the correlation between the cognitive function
15:51
with lack of sleep? Yeah.
15:53
So I mean, it's a range. It's, it could be you can see
15:57
the impact of sleep sort of on a day-to-day function.
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It's like I didn't get a good night's sleep last night because
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I, as I mentioned, I have a cold like this morning I was, I was
16:07
feeling and we we call this brain fog to like sometimes like
16:10
I feel scattered. I don't remember as much.
16:13
My processing speed or multitasking abilities may be
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reduced a little bit because of the impact of sleep.
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And in that, I guess like a longer term, we talk about even
16:25
like cognitive disorders like dementia, Alzheimer's disease.
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So when we are in these deep stages of sleep, our brain sort
16:35
of clears out these neurotoxins, they're called amyloid.
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So. So it does just like kind of
16:44
like a garbage truck type of roll.
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So sleep does. But if we don't sleep, these
16:49
neurotoxins build up in the brain in the form of Alzheimer's
16:53
disease pathology. And when that continues over
16:57
time, that's when we start seeing behavioral changes or
17:01
changes in cognitive functioning.
17:04
So yeah, it could be like day-to-day and in the long term
17:07
too. But I also want to highlight
17:09
that just because it does have an impact day-to-day, it's
17:13
necessarily going to lead to Alzheimer's disease because a
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lot could happen within those decades of brain aging too.
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And like, there's genetics, there's environmental, there is
17:24
lifestyle factors like all of these physical, you know, health
17:28
and medications that all play into developing Alzheimer's
17:31
disease. So I just don't want, you know,
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my research or what I, the messages that I try to convey in
17:38
my message scares people with I'm not getting good sleep, I'm
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going to get Alzheimer's disease.
17:43
It's not that direct correlation.
17:46
It's not that simple I. Guess yeah, it is pretty
17:48
complicated, but if you are not sleeping well, it's good to get,
17:51
you know started early and try to change that course of that,
17:55
but try to modify that do. You think Korean people
18:00
generally speaking, like we have a very strong belief or
18:05
stereotype against mental health and talking about mental health,
18:10
do you think, do you still see that in your practice?
18:14
So yes, I, my, my short answer to that question is yes.
18:20
But I mean, if they have reached out to me, they've already
18:24
gotten past a lot of that already.
18:27
What I, what seems more palpable to me is the whole, I guess,
18:34
weighing of the cost and the confidentiality and the effort
18:39
and all of those and being seeing those as investment for
18:44
my overall well-being. And it's hard to really convince
18:50
people to come in for therapy, Korean Americans, especially
18:55
before things are becoming more severe.
18:59
So I guess in the US, the like, I guess more broadly speaking, I
19:06
guess, I know if you just call them Americans broadly, they're
19:10
more used to thinking therapy as something that's good for their
19:14
self-care. So before something is broken.
19:19
But for Koreans, it's harder to think about it that way.
19:22
And if it's like really at the broken stage, if something
19:25
really has happened, then I need to seek treatment.
19:28
So I always try to emphasize preventative efforts and taking
19:33
care of your mental health. And that applies to me too.
19:38
So like, I would kind of regularly dump out my, I guess,
19:43
emotional baggage. I will actively engage in
19:47
self-care. And that certainly does help me
19:50
not go down the, you know, like a darker side, I guess, like not
19:55
feel more, not get to like a more depressed or anxious state.
20:01
And yeah, I guess even among people that I know who I don't
20:06
meet for work, there's still a wide, I guess.
20:11
Like the idea of therapy being something, you know, oh, that's
20:14
for people who are sick, That's for people who are really
20:17
broken. That idea is still very much
20:20
prevalent, I would say. So with my friends.
20:23
I mean, I wouldn't like go into talking so much about like what
20:27
this is and what therapy is, but I do hope that the overall
20:30
impression of mental health service to change over time.
20:35
And I do also see that it is gradually changing over time.
20:41
So it is, you know, it is on a positive trajectory.
20:45
It's a lot of efficacy is needed still.
20:49
Yes, for sure. Yeah.
20:51
So that's also a reason why I try to also disclose that I I do
20:57
get therapy. I'm not always on, you know,
21:00
seek psychotherapy, but I do often have a therapist who I can
21:06
meet weekly to kind of, you know, to process how I'm
21:11
feeling, you know, what my relationship pattern is like.
21:15
And I do see that as a preventative effort and also
21:18
just for myself to be more present with my clients and with
21:23
my family too. I like the word that you use
21:25
dump out these things. That's like it's like emptying
21:29
out your trash can on your back. Exactly.
21:31
Yeah, you know. I was looking at your CV and I
21:34
found it interesting that you did your masters in Korea like
21:37
Choreodiaco. Yes.
21:39
How did that happen? Isn't it?
21:41
Wow. So it's a long story.
21:43
When I first came to the States in 1999, my parents and my
21:49
family, we, we weren't planning on immigrating to the US.
21:54
We just came for one year. Before I entered middle school,
21:58
my aunt was in Los Angeles. So, you know, like, it was a
22:02
perfect way to just get one year of exposure to the American
22:05
culture and return back to Korea to continue my education.
22:10
And what I found was that one year was not enough.
22:14
I mean, English, like learning English, is gonna be my sort of
22:18
my lifelong quest. So I did ask my parents, well,
22:22
can we find ways to say a little longer?
22:25
And then it just became longer and longer.
22:27
Yeah, there was an advantage of going to AUC system like
22:31
University of California. So it was kind of a natural
22:35
transition to stay through college.
22:38
And then after college, with my student visa ending, I didn't
22:43
have a legal status in the US. So after that, I had to either
22:49
apply to Graduate School for another student visa or return
22:53
to Korea. I wasn't ready for Graduate
22:56
School at that time. So my choice was to go back to
23:00
Korea, gain some more research. And then fortunately, my
23:04
research advisor at the time had a research project like
23:08
collaboration with Korea University and Harvard.
23:11
It was like a multi institute collaboration.
23:14
And I was, you know, conducting cognitive assessments in English
23:21
and in Korean. So I got put in as like a main
23:24
person for that collaboration. And then while I was there, my
23:30
advisor in at Korean university, he suggested, while you're here,
23:34
why don't you do your masters? So I entered as a student,
23:38
attended classes in Korean. I was kind of like so lost with
23:45
a lot of terminologies all over again.
23:47
Yeah, it was, it was it was quite hard.
23:50
I spoke a lot of like English words in between 2:00.
23:53
And then I applied for PhD in the States and that's how I came
23:57
back. And then now I have green card
24:00
and citizenship. So I'm staying here.
24:03
But yeah, it's I truly did have an in between identity for a
24:08
very long time. And I would still say that I
24:12
still feel like I'm in in between very perfectly Korean
24:16
American. So, but status, you know that
24:20
visa status was just one I guess symbol that represented how I
24:26
guess unstable, imperfect I was during that time.
24:32
I mean, it kind of worked out for you, but still, you had to
24:35
go back to Korea after growing up in the States for so long.
24:39
Yes, that's right. And.
24:40
Study work on your degree in what psychology?
24:45
Biomedics. Yeah, yeah, it was neurobiology.
24:49
So unfortunately in like biology, a lot of terms overlap.
24:54
So that was that was nice. I think it was more the cultural
24:57
aspect of my state that was harder more than academic,
25:01
academic work. Yeah.
25:04
So working. So I was there for three years
25:08
before coming back to the state. But those three years were the
25:13
years that made me really feel lost, confused, unsure about who
25:20
I am, what I want. And I think I would say the book
25:24
Boundaries really came to be because of those three years of
25:28
experience in Korea. So yeah, in many ways those
25:33
three years were very like crucial and pivotal in shaping
25:39
my, I guess, career trajectory too.
25:42
Were you feeling again I don't belong here?
25:47
Oh yeah, for sure. It was I and that was more of a
25:52
like, I felt betrayed. I felt very disappointed because
25:57
the 10 plus years that I was living in California as a
26:02
Korean, I didn't even call myself Korean American because
26:05
when people ask me where are you from?
26:07
I didn't even get offended because I was like, I'm Korean,
26:10
I'm from Korea. But my experience, my experience
26:15
of going back to Korea after spending so much time in the US
26:19
was that I was a stranger. I was very much a stranger, and
26:24
I spoke differently, I guess. My attitude was different.
26:29
My social interactions were different.
26:32
My boundaries were not respected at all.
26:35
And so I would often say no to things that other students say
26:39
yes to and then that, you know, led to some problems.
26:45
So I felt like, wow, I really don't belong anywhere.
26:51
I'm not Korean, I'm not American.
26:53
Then who am I? And I think that was really
26:57
troubling because I had the idea that I had to be either
27:02
completely Korean or American. Like it it.
27:05
I had this black and white type of thinking at the time.
27:09
And I guess what I realized now is that I don't have to be.
27:14
I can be part this and some of this and I don't really have to
27:18
have a single category, but I am me.
27:22
I am like, I can be defined by so many different adjectives and
27:27
nouns and but at that time I was struggling trying to fit in.
27:31
Yeah. My goodness, it must have been
27:34
so hard. And you're, you're in your early
27:36
20s. You're so young too, you know.
27:38
I was, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
27:40
And you're still trying to figure out who you are at that
27:42
age, and you're putting to this very foreign place where you
27:48
feel like I should know this. Exactly.
27:51
I think that was what I mean by I felt betrayed because I
27:54
thought I knew. I thought I was very completely
27:57
Korean. And then the fact that I felt
28:00
like I didn't know. I didn't know how to fit in.
28:07
I, I mean, of course, I don't know your experience, but just
28:10
hearing that makes my heart drop a little bit, you know?
28:15
Maybe because we have some, I guess overlaps in our
28:18
experiences, you know, even although it's not 100% the same.
28:23
Yeah. Yeah.
28:24
You know, I read somewhere that you said writing your book
28:27
Boundary, it was sort of a healing process for you.
28:32
Is this what you mean? Yes.
28:34
So yeah, in that sense, I guess, and I guess also as a working
28:41
mother too, that it was just time for me.
28:46
And I also did in the epilogue of my book that I am still in
28:51
the process of learning me and boundaries.
28:55
I'm the author of the book called Boundaries, but I am
28:59
still working on it. So it's an invitation for other
29:03
people, like readers who have never encountered the concept of
29:07
boundary, to think, oh, OK, this is just something that I can
29:10
think about for my life. Like I, it is flexible.
29:15
It is malleable. And then for me to reflect on
29:20
these days like my days at Korea University, my days of
29:24
immigrating to the US at the age of 13, like all of these and my
29:29
learning and the graduate studies.
29:33
I think this book is where everything kind of came together
29:39
and was a healing process because I got to really reflect
29:45
a lot on who I am. Why am I writing this book?
29:50
Why do I care about talking about this topic.
29:55
So all a lot of those was a like in itself was very therapeutic.
29:59
So I wonder how do you do self-care as a working mom?
30:03
Very busy professional. You're speaking here and there,
30:07
appearing. I mean, what does that mean to
30:09
you? Self-care.
30:11
Yeah, that's such a such an important and valuable question.
30:17
I think about that kind of on the daily level.
30:23
And I think it's important to first know where you feel like
30:29
your joy and not just like, oh, like when I go on this cruise,
30:34
when I go on vacation, but like, on your day-to-day, like, what
30:38
makes your life meaningful and enjoyable.
30:42
And for me, I've been sort of very acutely aware of, you know,
30:48
what makes me happy because there have been very dark times
30:53
and I've actively tried to seek those.
30:55
And now I feel like I have a good handle and a good list of
30:59
things that make me feel valued and happy.
31:04
So I think I always go back to what I liked as a kid as well.
31:08
I grew up in Kwatan Kongido, very mountainous area.
31:14
When I was there, when I was little, I was even more rural
31:18
than how it is now. And I remember going to the
31:22
mountains. I remember going to these
31:24
streams to catch Tasigi. And just like, you know,
31:30
watching chestnuts fall, hearing the bugs and all these like, I
31:35
don't know, like just this nature experience has really
31:39
shaped my identity as well. So I always go back to the
31:43
nature. I take a walk.
31:45
I look for opportunities to just be out where the trees are and
31:50
just sit down, open a book. And that just experience is
31:54
really just very precious to me. And I feel very rested in those
32:00
moments. And so I think it's important to
32:04
understand what is your unique ways of finding peace.
32:12
And I think it's also not just about what, but also when and
32:17
how. So for me, when has always been
32:20
an issue. When can I put this in my
32:23
schedule? But for me, I do have like an
32:28
hour and a half of downtime after I put my kids to sleep and
32:33
I, you know, finish my work at night time too.
32:37
And then before I go to sleep, you know, I would like Scroll
32:40
down Instagram and that's also like a fun time for me too.
32:43
So, you know, I'm OK with that. But I also save at least 30
32:48
minutes on reading or something that I can just unplug myself to
32:54
and just go back to. So for me, that's often reading.
32:57
I, I like paper books still. So for me that's still very
33:02
therapeutic. I, I write so just things like
33:06
that seem very trivial, but they are the moments that really keep
33:11
me grounded. I try to really hold on to those
33:14
moments because I know those are my favorites.
33:17
So if I'm just like being my, if my mind is somewhere else, like
33:21
I try to pick it up, bring it back to now, just really enjoy
33:25
those first few sips of hot coffee and just that
33:29
peacefulness. Those are just few seconds, but
33:34
they really keep my fuel in and I feel just I feel happier after
33:41
those few seconds. So I think it's about being
33:44
mindful of when you're feeling joy and being really grounded to
33:50
those moments and really making time for yourself to do that.
33:55
And I guess I already spoke to the how of doing it too, but
33:59
it's so easy to forget an appointment with myself.
34:02
So for example, if I'm saying, you know, I'm going to go for a
34:05
run for 30 minutes from 12:30 to 1:00, it's just something that I
34:09
made with myself, not important. But I think those moments get
34:14
lost so easily. And when that is prolonged, you
34:18
don't have time for yourself. So I think it's important to
34:21
treat an appointment with yourself as if you're making an
34:25
appointment with a friend or your Co worker.
34:29
So I would put that in the calendar.
34:32
I would have a purple box saying Pilates, running, reading.
34:37
Because I made a promise as a commitment that I'm making with
34:40
myself. And over the long run, it'll
34:44
really help me become a more full and better person.
34:49
Also what I just realized is that these little moments are I
34:53
was not being mindful that these bring me joy or these are joyful
34:57
moments or meaningful moments so that I forgot to enjoy them.
35:03
And I mean, and also, you know, I'm not mindful all the time.
35:07
So this is a constant reminder and a cognitive effort, like a
35:11
reminder that I have to give to myself too.
35:15
And I think, you know, also thinking about work and
35:19
parenting as homeworks or things to achieve productivity, I think
35:26
that also makes us feel like it much harder.
35:29
I just really happen to also like what I'm doing for work.
35:33
I also just really enjoy spending time with my kids.
35:37
I am like, there is a childish side of me and I think we all
35:40
do, but we just forget about that.
35:43
But I've gotten from I guess like parenting Humbus that like
35:47
the most like the most common comment that I got was enjoy
35:52
while your kids are young. Yeah, I've heard that so many
35:56
times and I believe it. I believe that is true.
35:59
So I try to remind myself very consciously that they're young.
36:04
They're so cute right now. Just be childish with them.
36:08
Just Dance to a silly song. Just go and run with them at the
36:12
playground. So even when I'm in the
36:14
parenting mode, it's not necessarily categorized as work
36:20
or productivity mode. I am also enjoying those moments
36:26
and I think it's really helpful to go back to values in those
36:30
moments too. When I'm grant writing, some of
36:33
these sections are really boring.
36:35
Like I have to write like budgets.
36:37
I have to write these letters of support.
36:38
You know, these are like all boring work.
36:41
But going back to like, why am I doing this?
36:44
What is so meaningful and valuable about this?
36:46
Oh, I really want to do this type of work so it could benefit
36:50
the community and I could grow as a, you know, scholar.
36:54
Then it just makes it more doable and there's some joy that
36:59
you can find in the process. You know, I learned so much from
37:04
my guests every single time. And you know, I pick up like
37:09
they'll get some wisdom from everyone.
37:12
And one thing that like I just thought of is to have emotional
37:17
connection with something, right?
37:21
And, and in this case, this person was talking about
37:25
learning Korean. It's a second language for our
37:27
children. You know, she talked about first
37:30
let them experience the emotional connection with the
37:33
language, not just as you're Korean, you need to learn
37:36
Korean. So even for this you know why am
37:40
I doing? Exactly.
37:42
Why am I being a parent? Why am I grant writing?
37:45
Why am I doing this podcast? There is a emotional connection
37:50
and that cup fills my cup. Yes, I love that.
37:56
Yeah, Yeah, Just in everything that we do.
37:59
It's not about like I should be doing this.
38:02
It's more about like why, why? Why should I?
38:05
I always talk about should as a good password.
38:09
If there is like I should do this, then that makes me pause.
38:13
And I think we all should ironically, using the word
38:17
should again, but we we should pause at the should words and
38:21
think why. Why though?
38:23
Like for what a challenge or benefit?
38:27
Well, that's most likely going to be tied to your value.
38:31
It's more like, may I grant myself this time to go exercise?
38:37
May I give myself the permission to enjoy my time with kids
38:42
rather than I should be exercising.
38:44
I should be, you know, a good parent.
38:48
I said to my husband because he uses the word should a lot.
38:51
I said don't use should nothing should but I.
38:56
Should say pause. Exactly.
38:59
That's a pause word. Yeah.
39:01
Good one, good one. My take away today?
39:04
Pause. Share.
39:05
It goes pause. Yes, that's easy to remember.
39:11
And I talk about this with a friend of mine the other day
39:15
while we're coding. She's a social worker and the
39:19
resentment that I honestly have very little towards my immigrant
39:28
parents. We I talked about this with her
39:32
and I had some time to self reflect after my mom's like 3
39:37
week visit with me and I don't know what she felt but I was
39:43
going, you know, my emotion and mood was going up and down going
39:47
crazy because I feel like I should be very grateful and very
39:54
honoring and very kind and loving to my mom but.
40:01
I felt very betrayed in a sense, and also very resentful.
40:10
So I think because this, what I found from my introspection was
40:18
like the word should was always kind of, you know, like attached
40:25
to me. But you should do well, you
40:28
should be good. You should succeed.
40:30
You should, you know, be or good sister.
40:35
You know. So I think that really brings me
40:41
to a place where, like, I don't want to be.
40:45
I don't want to attach shit to anything in my life.
40:48
I reject it. You're like, I reject.
40:52
Yes. Yeah.
40:53
Yeah. You know, I Yeah.
40:55
I'm sorry. Go ahead.
40:57
Oh, no, that just brings up so much for me, too.
40:59
Yeah. Did you want?
41:01
No, please go ahead. Yeah, I was, yeah.
41:04
Yeah. So, yeah, it does bring up so
41:05
much, I think for most of our listeners for this podcast
41:09
especially, right, because it's such a a big kind of burden.
41:15
Yeah. What do you call it?
41:16
Like the CHIM? On your own kit?
41:18
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, 'cause.
41:20
We don't realize it, but yeah. So if there is one thing that
41:25
like like, so coming here, driving into New York and
41:28
thinking about the podcast. So if I wanted to say one thing
41:31
to, I guess younger 1.5 generations or children of
41:35
immigrants, Korean diaspora, whatever, you know, groups that
41:38
we can call ourselves, is that also, you know, there's no
41:43
should. So you're absolutely right.
41:45
And then we don't have to be responsible for so many things.
41:51
I mean, and there's, you know, what is also called mixed
41:53
feelings, too. You are probably grateful and,
41:57
you know, feeling resentment, too.
42:00
You are probably very happy and glad that you came here.
42:04
And also, you know, grieving the losses of experiences that you
42:09
could have had in Korea. Like, I have a lot of feelings
42:12
when I talk about the experience as an immigrant child.
42:16
The 13 year old me was just going through a lot.
42:19
Yeah. And something that I've that's
42:23
always kind of suppressed me was that idea of should and that
42:26
responsibility. So when I got into college and
42:30
up through middle school and high school, and my dad was a
42:34
kirogiappa, so he stayed in Korea by himself, had his own
42:37
business. So he would come for months and
42:39
go back. But that was really rough for
42:42
all of us, and especially probably for my parents.
42:46
So I thought that my way of paying back for their sacrifice
42:51
was for me to succeed academically and go to a good
42:55
college so that when my parents reflect back on their
42:58
experience, I can say and honey went to this good college and
43:05
then I didn't get to go to my dream college.
43:08
I wanted to go to UCLAI didn't get in.
43:11
So for me at the time, it was like kind of my world was
43:15
shaking, like I, you know, like I thought I was going to get in.
43:18
My parents are going to be so disappointed.
43:20
But I think that mindset of I need to be responsible for their
43:25
sacrifice and their work. I think that is just so rough.
43:32
I think rough is a very mild word.
43:34
That's that could be very devastating for a lot of
43:38
immigrant children. Because what I do realize now is
43:43
that like, you're not responsible for your parents
43:47
life. You're not responsible for your
43:51
family's feelings and emotions. And I think it has to be
43:55
bidirectional. Parents should also not imply
43:58
that like the reason why we're going through this is all for
44:05
you. And I think that could be that
44:10
that's, I think that's very not fruitful.
44:13
It's very damaging and I I say this because that mindset of
44:18
like, oh, my life, like I need to do, you know, strive for this
44:22
and my value is this because of something else other than me.
44:28
And once that enmeshment of values happen, then me and now
44:33
just gets lost. Like so we hear so much of I
44:37
don't really know what I want to do because we've been
44:40
functioning under the idea of like, we should be doing this.
44:43
I should be listening. I should be following what the
44:46
society defines to be successful.
44:50
And that is so much burden. And I think it could be one of
44:55
the main factors that could negatively impact Korean
45:00
American mental health. So just keeping that in mind
45:04
that like, yes, they, I'm not saying, I'm not denying, I'm not
45:10
neglecting that our parent generation and our, you know,
45:14
like our former generations have done so much work.
45:17
They laid the foundation for us to strive in this Korean
45:21
communities and now it's up to us to do our part in our
45:28
independent and own ways. We don't necessarily have to
45:31
stick to the old, I guess, protocol or the cycle and just
45:36
be ready to break away and say, well, thank you and this is what
45:42
I want. Thanks to your effort, I have
45:45
become a person like this and I'm ready to be independent from
45:48
you. Yeah, both could be true at the
45:51
same time, right. Yeah.
45:53
I, I kind of laughed when you said, oh, I'm not dismissing.
45:58
It's so funny because we always feel like we have to say that.
46:01
Like we're not dismissing anything but but.
46:04
Yeah. So, I mean, just because we are
46:07
resentful doesn't mean we're not grateful.
46:09
Yeah, both can be true. I saw that you post something
46:14
about let's see young Pakagi technique, yes, as a technique
46:19
to do your therapy, yes. When do you use this?
46:22
What is it like? Can you can we show like how
46:26
that works? Yeah.
46:27
So this is when there's a feeling, but you don't know what
46:31
it is or where it's coming from. This is very commonly seen
46:37
especially in Koreans or Korean Americans because as I
46:41
mentioned, we're so used to thinking, oh, what we should be
46:44
doing or what I was asked to do rather than what I want.
46:48
And sometimes when these uncomfortable emotions arise,
46:51
it's hard for us to determine what is the root cause of it.
46:57
So I call this peeling the onion, young Pakagi, because in
47:01
the surface level, we're seeing this emotion like, I'm so
47:04
uncomfortable. I'm sitting with this
47:06
discomfort. What does that mean?
47:09
OK, let's look in more. OK, so I, I, I was upset that my
47:14
friend made this comment about my, I don't know, my college
47:18
being not as good. I'm just like making things up.
47:21
Why was that so upsetting? What does that mean?
47:24
Oh it. Means.
47:26
It means like while my brain is perceiving that as an
47:30
interpretation of me being I guess lesser, like me being
47:35
inferior, me not putting in enough effort.
47:39
Is that true? Why do I feel so uncomfortable
47:42
by that belief? That's because I feel like I've
47:46
wronged my parents like that. I feel like I've disappointed my
47:50
parents. So it is this active process of
47:54
unveiling what is underneath and what my like core belief is.
48:01
So I often make this analogy of our feeling and thoughts being
48:05
like a big tree. So when we imagine a big tree,
48:09
there's a tree trunk and the tree trunk has all these
48:13
branches coming out of them and the leaves.
48:16
And in psychology, we call these thoughts that come up and I
48:20
guess natural automatic interpretations as automatic
48:25
negative thoughts. So people may have automatic
48:29
negative thoughts about a lot of different things.
48:31
When I do poorly on the test, it could be like, oh, I'm so
48:34
stupid. You know, sometimes that just
48:36
comes up automatically for some people.
48:38
It could be like, oh, the teacher hates me, whatever it
48:41
might be. But the thoughts that come up
48:44
are like branches that grow out of the trees and the trees are
48:48
like the core beliefs that we have about the world.
48:52
So if there is a core belief of I'm not lovable, I'm not enough,
48:59
then events that we encounter could be viewed and have these
49:04
branches of, oh, that person doesn't like me or I'm not going
49:10
to get that job. So I think it's always important
49:14
to look into what is a tree trunk, what is the filter and
49:19
the schema that we have in our mind that give rise to these
49:24
automatic thoughts. And then many times we don't
49:29
know why these automatic thoughts happen.
49:32
So that's why I think it's an active process to try to
49:35
discover that by processing. And so in that post, I gave a
49:40
few key questions to ask yourself.
49:44
And so when there's a thought about wow, like, why am I so
49:47
upset? Like, what just happened?
49:48
Oh, my friend said something about my appearance or like
49:53
sites on there or like, you know, when you go to churches
49:57
and Adam was like counties sites on there.
49:59
And then like, that felt so offensive.
50:01
Like, why? Huh.
50:03
Because I feel like they're negatively, you know, judging my
50:07
appearance. Why does that feel so bad to me?
50:11
Oh, I want to look good in front of other people.
50:14
I want to be perfect, actually. And then why does that matter?
50:18
Like, what does that mean to me? I think that's an important
50:21
question. What does that mean to me?
50:23
What does that say about me? Then that means I'm imperfect.
50:28
And why is that so bad? Why is that so important?
50:31
Because that means I'm a failure or I'm not lovable.
50:36
No one's going to love me. OK, So what's so bad about that?
50:40
Then I'm going to be alone. I'm going to be left alone.
50:45
So now looking at that statement, it's very strong,
50:49
right? Like what seems to be like like
50:52
triggers these deep down schema of my insecurities.
50:58
But if I can work on that core belief, then if you have a
51:01
healthy tree trunk, it's going to give rise to healthy
51:04
branches. And then just going deeper is
51:09
the root of that tree. So what causes core beliefs?
51:12
It could be your upbringing, It could be your attachment with
51:16
your parents, how you grew up, your key, I guess, guardian
51:22
figures or role models who've shaped you, childhood
51:26
experiences that could all give rise to this core beliefs.
51:30
So that's why I think it's an important technique in
51:32
psychology or therapies. That's so interesting.
51:37
So the last question I have for you is, if you were to describe
51:41
yourself as food or book or movie or song, what would it be
51:47
and why? But I guess, yeah, one, one
51:49
song, I would say my absolute favorite is Dancing in the
51:53
Moonlight by the top loaders because it has like very cute
52:00
ish a melody. And then it's like dancing in
52:02
the moonlight. Everybody's singing.
52:08
Yeah, I'm actually, I love singing.
52:12
I love dancing. I love singing.
52:14
And this song just comes up to me because I've always imagined
52:18
and I I still do. I've been saving this song for
52:22
the the best part of my life. And then just last week, as I
52:27
was playing with my kids in the playground, I was like, I
52:30
shouldn't save this song. Like right now, it's just so
52:34
enough moonlight and I just this just like crazy dance party with
52:39
my kids. And I'm saying that that song is
52:43
perfectly descriptive of how I'm feeling now because I there will
52:49
I don't know if there will be a best moment.
52:53
I think every day can be a best moment.
52:56
Every day has that potential and then we just kind of treat it as
53:00
one. And you mentioned something
53:03
really important about not having enough time.
53:06
Like do I, how much time do I have left in my life?
53:10
And we never know. Like we can never predict,
53:12
right? But let's not save our joy and
53:17
pleasure for some time down the future thinking that things will
53:22
be better. Oh my gosh, I'm getting like
53:25
emotional thinking about it. But now is the best time.
53:30
And I do want us to think about that too.
53:33
And I, I made a post about this a long time ago.
53:37
Let's not wait, like let's not wait until to go with beauty
53:42
Batheo, as was what I said in the post.
53:46
But I guess that's what I really try to live by now too, that I'm
53:52
going to dance in the moonlight like whenever I want to and no
53:58
one has to give me permission. Try to do that and I can just
54:03
play that song every day and Just Dance to that rhythm.