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Transcript

How Marin Scales Brands to 9 Figures · Scalability School

• 0:00
  If your hit rate of the tests is high
• 0:03
  enough, I think you can
• 0:04
  squeeze more with ABO.
• 0:06
  If your hit rate is
• 0:07
  bad, then stick with CBO.
• 0:09
  It never happens that a
• 0:10
  good ad is not running.
• 0:11
  You know, it's always running somewhere.
• 0:13
  Maybe if it died in testing,
• 0:14
  it's running somewhere else.
• 0:15
  So like often the first thing that I do
• 0:17
  when I take over a new ad account,
• 0:18
  I go like a year or two back and I find
• 0:21
  all ads that are above the target ROAS
• 0:24
  that spend significantly.
• 0:25
  I take their post ID and in most cases,
• 0:27
  like seven or eight out of ten,
• 0:29
  like ends up being performers.
• 0:31
  People just forget that they had a winner
• 0:33
  like, you know, a year ago.
• 0:34
  That winner is a still winner.
• 0:35
  Obviously, it's not
• 0:36
  going to scale massively,
• 0:38
  but I have some ad accounts where like
• 0:39
  those old ads are like
• 0:41
  running for like a few years.
• 0:43
  It felt like I got a recognition when
• 0:45
  Facebook confirmed
• 0:45
  that a different thumbnail
• 0:47
  actually means different entity ID
• 0:49
  because like I was, I did not know why,
• 0:51
  but like four or five years went back in
• 0:53
  the day when I worked with Yudi,
• 0:54
  I realized that a different thumbnail can
• 0:56
  impact the performance of the same video
• 0:58
  in a different way.
• 0:59
  So still me and all of my media buyers
• 1:01
  and my junior media buyers,
• 1:03
  everybody are picking
• 1:03
  thumbnails manually.
• 1:04
  I think it has a positive impact.
• 1:07
  And now let's take a listen to the
• 1:15
  Scalability School podcast.
• 1:17
  Welcome to another episode of the
• 1:19
  Scalability School podcast,
• 1:20
  your favorite podcast for tactical advice
• 1:24
  on running your
• 1:25
  e-commerce brand or agency
• 1:27
  or agency accounts under that are brand.
• 1:30
  So here's the thing.
• 1:31
  We have a legend on the podcast today,
• 1:34
  and I'm going to pronounce publicly his
• 1:37
  name properly or attempt to.
• 1:40
  Marin Ishtvan Itch.
• 1:43
  Did I get close?
• 1:45
  This is perfect.
• 1:47
  Okay.
• 1:48
  Who I have been mispronouncing my good
• 1:49
  friend's name for three years
• 1:52
  since we've known each other
• 1:53
  or four years actually
• 1:55
  we've known each other.
• 1:55
  So I also, this is a theme of my life
• 1:59
  because I also have the owner of socio,
• 2:03
  Karen.
• 2:04
  I've been calling Karan for six years.
• 2:09
  And he recently just had the guts to tell
• 2:10
  me that I was mispronouncing it.
• 2:12
  So anyway, here we
• 2:13
  are pronounced properly.
• 2:14
  Everybody knows and loves this guy.
• 2:16
  I've sent so many people to your YouTube
• 2:18
  channel to learn how to do Facebook ads.
• 2:21
  And an absolute legend.
• 2:23
  Marin, welcome to the show.
• 2:24
  Yeah, I appreciate it.
• 2:26
  I'm not sure how I'm going to
• 2:27
  justify all these big words,
• 2:29
  but I definitely want to return the
• 2:32
  gratitude because like I
• 2:34
  was listening to your podcast,
• 2:37
  you know, 2019, the e-commerce influence,
• 2:40
  probably like I've stumbled upon it
• 2:42
  randomly during one of my,
• 2:44
  I know, searching on the
• 2:46
  internet for a good content.
• 2:48
  I was like, wow, how did I
• 2:49
  did not know about this guy?
• 2:50
  It was like in the early beginnings of my
• 2:52
  media buying when you
• 2:54
  were definitely a role model.
• 2:55
  So I appreciate that.
• 2:57
  I mean, welcome to episode
• 2:59
  one of Glazing the Podcast,
• 3:02
  where we glaze each other and talk about
• 3:04
  all the good things.
• 3:05
  Brad, Brad's really smart.
• 3:08
  Brad's smarter than me.
• 3:09
  So there's the pride glaze.
• 3:10
  So let's just jump right into it.
• 3:12
  By the way, Marin has spoken at three
• 3:16
  events now for the
• 3:19
  Foxhole founders in Europe.
• 3:20
  And everybody always comes to me and is
• 3:21
  like, that was so great.
• 3:23
  Because you're such a tactician, Marin,
• 3:26
  with your hands on the wheel.
• 3:28
  So as a tactician, let's get into the
• 3:30
  debate that everybody
• 3:31
  wants to know right away,
• 3:33
  which is ABO versus CBO.
• 3:36
  Okay.
• 3:37
  What are your thoughts?
• 3:38
  We're only going to spend a few minutes
• 3:40
  on this, but everybody wants to know.
• 3:41
  What are your thoughts?
• 3:43
  So if your hit rate of
• 3:45
  the tests is high enough,
• 3:47
  I think you can squeeze more with ABO.
• 3:50
  If your hit rate is
• 3:51
  bad, then stick with CBO.
• 3:53
  Yeah.
• 3:54
  I think I don't disagree
• 3:56
  with that for what it's worth.
• 3:57
  Like I know I'm on the
• 3:58
  opposite side, generally speaking,
• 4:00
  when it comes to the ABO versus CBO.
• 4:02
  I think if I had to
• 4:03
  add my little summary,
• 4:05
  I think the bet that you're making when
• 4:07
  you choose between them
• 4:08
  is that you are going to either be right
• 4:12
  more often than meta
• 4:13
  or at a bigger scale that kind of offsets
• 4:16
  maybe the downside of being wrong.
• 4:18
  And I think you've
• 4:19
  said this before, right?
• 4:19
  Like that's a function of hit rate, but
• 4:22
  it's also a function of scale.
• 4:23
  If you hit a winner that
• 4:24
  meta missed on and it can scale
• 4:26
  and weigh in excess of what you spent on
• 4:28
  the creative test that didn't hit,
• 4:30
  it probably doesn't
• 4:31
  actually end up mattering.
• 4:32
  The only reason I
• 4:33
  generally start with CBO is,
• 4:35
  and for a lot of people is maybe their
• 4:37
  hit rate isn't great.
• 4:38
  And it kind of prevents the downside,
• 4:40
  especially as brands are
• 4:41
  kind of getting to scale.
• 4:43
  Yeah, definitely.
• 4:44
  So CBO is like more conservative.
• 4:45
  And like when the budget is not high,
• 4:47
  when we have too many
• 4:48
  tests or the hit rate is low,
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  I use CBO when I'm into scaling.
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  And I know that like from 10 tests,
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  I will get like at
• 4:55
  least three, four winners.
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  That means I'm getting three, four
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  winners every week from the 10 tests.
• 5:00
  If I test 20, I get seven, eight.
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  Maybe I will not be able to scale them
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  like, you know, from 100 to 2K.
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  But like if I scale it from 100 to 500,
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  and I have like seven
• 5:10
  of those ads a week,
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  that adds up.
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  And I don't need to scale every ad.
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  I need like, I don't know,
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  I need one, two great ads.
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  And then I need like
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  10, 15 supporting winners.
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  And ABO allows me that
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  a bit more than the CBO.
• 5:24
  But I definitely agree.
• 5:26
  Yeah, sorry.
• 5:27
  No, I didn't mean to cut you off.
• 5:29
  I was just going to ask, like, have you,
• 5:30
  have you gone down the route or do you
• 5:32
  have a kind of a tactic for,
• 5:33
  I saw somebody on Twitter X recently say,
• 5:37
  you know, they will
• 5:38
  run their creative tests.
• 5:39
  And then if they don't work,
• 5:40
  they'll still maybe throw
• 5:41
  them in to a cost cap campaign
• 5:43
  or kind of keep it live somewhere else.
• 5:45
  Like when I go CBO, it's
• 5:48
  generally, I'm keeping the ads on.
• 5:49
  I just don't generally turn them off
• 5:51
  unless there's a good
• 5:51
  reason to turn them off.
• 5:52
  Maybe they do end up sucking
• 5:53
  or they're super out of season
• 5:55
  or something like that.
• 5:57
  But I'm just wondering
• 5:58
  if there's like small,
• 5:59
  little tactical things
• 6:00
  that you pull forward.
• 6:02
  Yeah, so I don't have that
• 6:02
  kind of like zombie campaign.
• 6:04
  The reason is anytime
• 6:06
  ads shows attraction,
• 6:09
  I would take it post ID and I
• 6:10
  would run it somewhere else.
• 6:12
  So I never, it never happens
• 6:14
  that a good ad is not running.
• 6:17
  You know, it's always running somewhere.
• 6:18
  Maybe if it died in testing,
• 6:20
  it's running somewhere else.
• 6:21
  So like often the first thing that I do
• 6:23
  when I take over a new ad account,
• 6:24
  I go like year or two back
• 6:26
  and I find all old ads
• 6:29
  that are among the target rows
• 6:31
  that spend significantly.
• 6:32
  I take their post ID and in most cases,
• 6:34
  like seven or eight out of 10,
• 6:36
  like ends up being performers.
• 6:38
  People just forget
• 6:39
  that they had a winner,
• 6:41
  like, you know, a year ago.
• 6:42
  That winner is a still winner.
• 6:43
  Obviously it's not gonna scale massively,
• 6:46
  but I have some ad
• 6:47
  accounts where like those old ads
• 6:49
  are like running for like a few years.
• 6:52
  Yeah.
• 6:52
  Do you have a cadence for like going back
• 6:54
  and revisiting old ads?
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  Cause like maybe you guys
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  even have turned things off
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  in the past.
• 6:58
  Yeah, that's a good thing.
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  As I said, like there's always,
• 7:01
  this ad that was decent,
• 7:03
  it's always running somewhere.
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  So when I take over,
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  I find those ads and
• 7:08
  they're always running
• 7:09
  with some kind of budget,
• 7:10
  with a different audience,
• 7:11
  with a different attribution setting,
• 7:13
  with a different bidding.
• 7:14
  You know, they're
• 7:15
  always running somewhere,
• 7:16
  at least with some budget.
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  So I don't get into position
• 7:19
  that there's an ad that was good
• 7:21
  that is currently not active.
• 7:23
  Yeah.
• 7:24
  Well, you said
• 7:24
  something interesting there.
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  I don't want to, you know,
• 7:26
  we can start to deviate off the ABO
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  versus CBO a bit here,
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  but you mentioned the different audience.
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  And so I think some people hear audience
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  and they're like,
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  wait, you're actually doing,
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  like you're doing more than just broad.
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  And so maybe,
• 7:38
  maybe just want to
• 7:39
  spend a couple of minutes
• 7:39
  talking through that.
• 7:41
  Yeah, I know it's 2026.
• 7:44
  And like,
• 7:45
  if I said that,
• 7:46
  like I'm using interest,
• 7:47
  people are saying like,
• 7:47
  okay, what, why?
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  But the thing is,
• 7:50
  like I find they can have cheaper CPM,
• 7:54
  they can get me lower frequency,
• 7:56
  and it's my way of
• 7:57
  amplifying the winners.
• 7:59
  So let's say if I have
• 8:00
  an ad in testing that,
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  I don't know,
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  it was running for two months,
• 8:03
  then it died,
• 8:04
  I would take it post ID,
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  I would group it with some other winners
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  that also died,
• 8:08
  and I would run them with
• 8:09
  some interest audiences.
• 8:11
  And as I said,
• 8:12
  like it's,
• 8:13
  it's a nice addition.
• 8:14
  It's not something that's scalable.
• 8:15
  It's not something that like,
• 8:18
  you know,
• 8:18
  is massive unlock.
• 8:19
  But let's say if I'm
• 8:20
  spending 20K in testing,
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  I'm spending 20K in scaling.
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  And then like,
• 8:26
  there's like 5K a day
• 8:27
  that's running in interest audiences
• 8:29
  where I badge the winners.
• 8:32
  Are these ads that
• 8:32
  you're running predominantly?
• 8:34
  So I would say 70% of my clients are US,
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  10% is Canada,
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  10% Australia,
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  10% UK.
• 8:43
  Yeah, yeah.
• 8:44
  Yeah,
• 8:44
  it's,
• 8:44
  I,
• 8:45
  so it's interesting about the,
• 8:46
  the interest thing.
• 8:47
  I think I agree with you
• 8:49
  that there tend to be marginal wins,
• 8:51
  especially when you're spending
• 8:52
  at a really high level with interest.
• 8:54
  And I don't think
• 8:54
  that's necessarily wrong
• 8:55
  to do that.
• 8:57
  So I appreciate you calling that out.
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  So let's talk,
• 8:59
  let's transition to talking about
• 9:00
  tactics that are working right now.
• 9:04
  There's a lot of
• 9:05
  things that you talk about
• 9:06
  on a regular basis.
• 9:09
  One of them is whitelisting at scale.
• 9:12
  This is talking about
• 9:13
  a ton of whitelisting profiles
• 9:14
  that are running,
• 9:17
  you know,
• 9:17
  not partnership ads,
• 9:19
  dark posts that don't show
• 9:20
  on the influencer's timeline,
• 9:23
  multiple influencer touch points
• 9:24
  in the same session.
• 9:26
  Yeah.
• 9:26
  So you went and said,
• 9:28
  whitelisting,
• 9:30
  you spent 1.2 million versus brand
• 9:33
  and the cheaper CPC,
• 9:36
  it was a dollar cheaper CPC
• 9:37
  and a way better North Beam ROAS
• 9:39
  at 1.29 versus 0.76.
• 9:43
  Talk about whitelisting scale
• 9:45
  and your sauce there.
• 9:47
  Yeah.
• 9:47
  So basically we realized
• 9:49
  that no matter the client,
• 9:51
  when we introduce whitelisting,
• 9:52
  especially from the authority pages,
• 9:54
  so let's say if you're in pet space
• 9:56
  and you find a veterinarian,
• 9:58
  if you're in,
• 9:58
  I don't know,
• 10:00
  pain,
• 10:01
  then you find a like pediatrician,
• 10:04
  if you're like in a
• 10:05
  skincare dermatologist,
• 10:06
  so like those people
• 10:07
  tend to have like bigger influence
• 10:10
  on regular users.
• 10:13
  They add credibility.
• 10:15
  The fact that
• 10:16
  when you're running through
• 10:16
  the multiple pages
• 10:18
  at the same session,
• 10:19
  you can see different ads
• 10:21
  at the same time,
• 10:22
  although it is the same advertiser
• 10:23
  just running through
• 10:24
  the different pages.
• 10:25
  When you run through
• 10:26
  the brand page,
• 10:26
  you can see one ad per session.
• 10:28
  So it creates that sense
• 10:29
  that everybody's using the product.
• 10:31
  So we then just like
• 10:32
  built a massive flywheel
• 10:34
  of these influencers
• 10:35
  that we actually put
• 10:39
  into our ad account.
• 10:40
  So like for our internal brand,
• 10:41
  I think we tested
• 10:42
  more than 300,
• 10:43
  400 whitelisting profiles.
• 10:45
  So basically every week,
• 10:46
  I'm testing like between
• 10:47
  five and 10 new profiles.
• 10:50
  And like, again,
• 10:52
  it creates a sense
• 10:53
  that like every single authority
• 10:55
  in this space
• 10:56
  is using our product.
• 10:58
  Obviously, this is quite expensive
• 11:01
  at the scale
• 11:01
  because, you know,
• 11:02
  these influencers
• 11:03
  that are authorities,
• 11:05
  like I have some girls
• 11:06
  that we're paying
• 11:07
  like 20K per video
• 11:09
  plus usage, right?
• 11:11
  But those are like,
• 11:11
  you know,
• 11:12
  those are proven influencers.
• 11:13
  Those are authorities.
• 11:14
  Those are people that I know
• 11:15
  no matter the ad I launch,
• 11:16
  it will be a winner.
• 11:17
  So I pay 20K,
• 11:19
  but I spend 20K a day.
• 11:21
  So basically I offset that
• 11:22
  in a week, you know.
• 11:24
  Yeah, there's,
• 11:25
  and there's a bunch of different
• 11:26
  like levels to this.
• 11:27
  So I'm curious,
• 11:27
  like does the,
• 11:28
  does the partnership,
• 11:30
  whitelisting,
• 11:30
  however,
• 11:30
  like all of that,
• 11:31
  does that differ
• 11:32
  depending on the scale
• 11:33
  that the brand is at?
• 11:34
  Like if they're spending
• 11:35
  less than 2K a day
• 11:37
  or less than 5K a day,
• 11:39
  are you approaching
• 11:39
  in a different direction?
• 11:41
  It sounds like maybe
• 11:41
  you try to go
• 11:42
  for the expert and authority people
• 11:43
  first,
• 11:44
  regardless of scale.
• 11:45
  Yeah,
• 11:46
  obviously in clothing,
• 11:47
  you cannot,
• 11:48
  there's no expert.
• 11:49
  So you just go people
• 11:50
  that fit your avatar.
• 11:54
  Obviously the less you,
• 11:55
  the less you're spending,
• 11:57
  the less people
• 11:57
  you can actually have
• 11:59
  because they're
• 12:00
  sometimes more expensive.
• 12:01
  But we try,
• 12:02
  I would say like
• 12:03
  as you scale,
• 12:03
  you get actually
• 12:04
  more of those people.
• 12:05
  So that's the,
• 12:06
  that's the main,
• 12:07
  it kind of like
• 12:08
  goes with the volume.
• 12:09
  Yeah.
• 12:09
  And the two follow-up
• 12:10
  questions to that,
• 12:12
  how are you finding
• 12:12
  these people in general?
• 12:14
  And then the follow-up
• 12:14
  to that would be,
• 12:15
  how are you,
• 12:16
  and I know it depends,
• 12:17
  you just,
• 12:17
  you just said it depends
• 12:18
  based on the person,
• 12:19
  but like,
• 12:19
  what does the general
• 12:20
  partnership agreement
• 12:23
  look like with that person?
• 12:24
  It's fixed plus percent
• 12:25
  to spend,
• 12:26
  it's just percent to spend,
• 12:27
  who cares what that
• 12:27
  would look like?
• 12:28
  Okay,
• 12:28
  good question.
• 12:29
  So first question,
• 12:29
  how do we find them?
• 12:31
  So we have,
• 12:31
  for our internal brand,
• 12:32
  we have like four people
• 12:33
  in the influencer team
• 12:34
  that is just like
• 12:35
  finding people
• 12:36
  and negotiating.
• 12:38
  We leverage some tools
• 12:40
  like Facebook
• 12:41
  Creator Marketplace.
• 12:42
  It was a terrible tool
• 12:43
  until a few months.
• 12:45
  Now it's amazing tool
• 12:46
  and my influencer team
• 12:47
  tells me that like
• 12:48
  they find more people there
• 12:49
  than any other software.
• 12:52
  Also,
• 12:53
  we started using,
• 12:54
  I think it's Super Bloom.
• 12:57
  It's an agency
• 12:57
  that helps that.
• 12:59
  Basically,
• 12:59
  but like we're on that level
• 13:00
  that we can pay,
• 13:02
  you know,
• 13:03
  four or 5k
• 13:03
  for an influencer
• 13:04
  because we know
• 13:05
  there's a script
• 13:06
  that works.
• 13:07
  Obviously,
• 13:08
  when you're smaller,
• 13:09
  it's just like,
• 13:09
  you know,
• 13:09
  reaching manually
• 13:10
  to people on Instagram
• 13:12
  or to create a marketplace.
• 13:14
  Facebook marketplace
• 13:15
  is better
• 13:15
  because you know
• 13:16
  these people already know
• 13:17
  what that process looks like.
• 13:20
  They already have
• 13:21
  the pages set up.
• 13:22
  So it's easier
• 13:23
  in terms of the payment.
• 13:25
  It's mostly,
• 13:27
  so initially we have deals
• 13:28
  that we pay them
• 13:29
  for content
• 13:30
  and then we repurpose
• 13:31
  that content
• 13:32
  for an ad.
• 13:34
  Now we are just paying them
• 13:35
  to get the content.
• 13:36
  So you don't even have
• 13:37
  to post it on your page.
• 13:38
  I just want your handle
• 13:39
  and I just want
• 13:42
  to be able
• 13:43
  to run the ads
• 13:44
  through your page.
• 13:44
  They give us video,
• 13:45
  raw video.
• 13:46
  We chop it up
• 13:47
  into three,
• 13:48
  four different hooks.
• 13:48
  We send it for approval.
• 13:50
  We send the ad copy
• 13:50
  for approval.
• 13:51
  We send the access
• 13:53
  to get the,
• 13:54
  a request
• 13:55
  to get the access.
• 13:56
  Once they approve
• 13:56
  that,
• 13:57
  I have the access.
• 13:57
  I launch that ad
• 13:58
  as a new ad set
• 13:59
  in my testing campaign.
• 14:02
  And literally,
• 14:02
  there's no brand
• 14:04
  that we work with
• 14:06
  that did not have
• 14:07
  a positive impact
• 14:08
  from introducing
• 14:09
  whitelisting.
• 14:11
  Yeah.
• 14:12
  Do you see
• 14:12
  that there's,
• 14:14
  does the,
• 14:15
  does the type
• 14:16
  of influence
• 14:16
  or maybe type
• 14:17
  is the wrong question.
• 14:18
  It's like,
• 14:18
  does the scale
• 14:19
  of their following matter?
• 14:20
  Have you seen
• 14:21
  any correlation
• 14:21
  or not really?
• 14:23
  So,
• 14:23
  the big ones
• 14:25
  definitely work better,
• 14:27
  but
• 14:27
  smaller ones
• 14:29
  can surprise
• 14:30
  and can also,
• 14:31
  you know,
• 14:32
  get you
• 14:33
  some surprising wins,
• 14:34
  especially if the,
• 14:35
  if the video is good,
• 14:37
  but I still think
• 14:38
  the sauce is in the script.
• 14:40
  It's just like,
• 14:40
  this is like
• 14:41
  amplification.
• 14:44
  Why I don't like,
• 14:45
  you know,
• 14:46
  running partnership
• 14:46
  because when I see
• 14:47
  a person
• 14:49
  with brand,
• 14:50
  it screams
• 14:51
  that this is an ad
• 14:52
  to me.
• 14:52
  Like,
• 14:52
  it's just,
• 14:53
  I know this is an ad
• 14:54
  and I scroll past it.
• 14:55
  When I see just a person,
• 14:57
  okay,
• 14:57
  this like looks something
• 14:58
  that I could,
• 14:59
  I could engage with
• 15:01
  and I think
• 15:01
  that's why it works.
• 15:02
  Well,
• 15:03
  I forgot to ask
• 15:03
  and answer the question
• 15:05
  about the pricing.
• 15:06
  So,
• 15:07
  it really depends.
• 15:08
  Usually,
• 15:08
  it is,
• 15:09
  it is a fixed fee.
• 15:12
  We try to get them
• 15:13
  on an affiliate,
• 15:14
  like on a percentage
• 15:15
  of spend
• 15:15
  because that's better
• 15:16
  for me.
• 15:17
  There's a lower risk
• 15:18
  and I'm okay paying
• 15:18
  you more
• 15:19
  if you're actually
• 15:20
  getting me the results.
• 15:21
  It will be
• 15:22
  hypercritical for me
• 15:23
  because I charge
• 15:24
  percentage of spend.
• 15:25
  So,
• 15:25
  you know,
• 15:26
  I think that's a fair deal
• 15:27
  to get to the influencer,
• 15:29
  but majority of them
• 15:30
  are still like,
• 15:30
  I don't know.
• 15:31
  I would rather you pay me
• 15:32
  and then like
• 15:34
  in 30 days,
• 15:36
  we evaluate.
• 15:36
  If we have 30 days access,
• 15:37
  we evaluate
• 15:38
  whether
• 15:39
  the ROAS
• 15:41
  that they got
• 15:42
  and the spend
• 15:43
  is like revenue,
• 15:44
  whether that offset
• 15:45
  their fee
• 15:45
  and whether we actually
• 15:46
  made money.
• 15:48
  If yes,
• 15:48
  then we kind of like
• 15:49
  trade to negotiate.
• 15:50
  I have some person,
• 15:51
  I have some people
• 15:52
  that like we are extending
• 15:53
  rides from July
• 15:54
  last year,
• 15:55
  you know,
• 15:55
  because it just works.
• 15:57
  So,
• 15:57
  it's like running
• 15:58
  for like nine months
• 15:58
  and we're just extending
• 15:59
  every month.
• 16:01
  Yeah,
• 16:01
  I have one more question,
• 16:03
  Andrew,
• 16:03
  and then I'll pause
• 16:04
  and shut up for a second.
• 16:05
  But this might transition
• 16:06
  actually into one of the
• 16:07
  follow-up questions here
• 16:08
  or the next topics,
• 16:09
  but are you doing anything
• 16:10
  special with the
• 16:11
  account structure
• 16:12
  for these tests
• 16:13
  or are they just going
• 16:14
  into their own,
• 16:15
  they're going into
• 16:15
  their own creative
• 16:16
  testing campaign?
• 16:17
  They're just going
• 16:18
  into their own ad sets.
• 16:19
  So,
• 16:19
  each creator
• 16:20
  is in its own ad sets.
• 16:21
  So,
• 16:21
  if I'm launching
• 16:21
  20 tests a week,
• 16:23
  I have 20 ads
• 16:24
  a week
• 16:24
  that I set
• 16:25
  and I launch
• 16:27
  tests from
• 16:27
  Wednesday or Thursday.
• 16:29
  I avoid launching
• 16:30
  stuff on Monday
• 16:31
  and Tuesday
• 16:31
  because my goal
• 16:33
  is to get
• 16:33
  at least one
• 16:34
  winning variation
• 16:35
  of these
• 16:35
  video that they
• 16:37
  get me.
• 16:38
  So,
• 16:38
  I know it can
• 16:39
  sound overwhelming
• 16:40
  because like,
• 16:41
  I know,
• 16:41
  in a month,
• 16:41
  I could potentially
• 16:42
  have 100 tests,
• 16:44
  which is 100
• 16:45
  ad sets.
• 16:46
  So,
• 16:46
  someone could see
• 16:47
  that and like,
• 16:47
  okay,
• 16:47
  what is this?
• 16:48
  But actually,
• 16:49
  out of those 100,
• 16:50
  I'm getting like,
• 16:50
  you know,
• 16:51
  40 that are
• 16:52
  decent performers.
• 16:54
  Very good background
• 16:55
  on whitelisting
• 16:56
  and how it's
• 16:57
  working for you.
• 16:57
  So,
• 16:57
  I appreciate you
• 16:58
  getting into that.
• 16:59
  One other thing
• 16:59
  you've talked about
• 17:00
  is cost cap
• 17:01
  weakened scaling,
• 17:03
  which is
• 17:04
  ASC
• 17:04
  with cost cap
• 17:06
  using different
• 17:06
  attribution windows.
• 17:09
  seven-day click
• 17:09
  versus seven-day click
• 17:11
  plus one-day view.
• 17:13
  And,
• 17:13
  essentially,
• 17:14
  the different
• 17:15
  attribution forces
• 17:16
  people kind of
• 17:16
  Facebook to find
• 17:17
  different types of people.
• 17:19
  And,
• 17:19
  with the cost cap,
• 17:20
  your point is like,
• 17:21
  look,
• 17:21
  Meta does the scaling
• 17:22
  for me.
• 17:23
  You talk about
• 17:24
  this strategy
• 17:24
  and what else
• 17:26
  is how you do it,
• 17:27
  how you set it up
• 17:27
  more specifically.
• 17:29
  All right,
• 17:29
  friends,
• 17:30
  quick break.
• 17:30
  This episode
• 17:31
  is brought to you
• 17:31
  by Northbeam,
• 17:32
  the marketing
• 17:33
  attribution platform
• 17:34
  that we love
• 17:34
  over here
• 17:35
  at Scalability School.
• 17:36
  If you're a marketer,
• 17:37
  I mean,
• 17:37
  you probably agree,
• 17:38
  right?
• 17:39
  Incrementality testing
• 17:39
  is broken.
• 17:40
  These tests require
• 17:42
  tons of labor,
• 17:43
  spreadsheets,
• 17:44
  statistical reference,
• 17:45
  and the designing
• 17:47
  of a test
• 17:47
  is slow and error-prone.
• 17:48
  How are you supposed
• 17:49
  to know what to test
• 17:50
  in the first place,
• 17:51
  right?
• 17:51
  There's a million factors
• 17:52
  that can make
• 17:53
  incrementality testing
• 17:54
  difficult.
• 17:55
  But,
• 17:55
  the good news is
• 17:56
  Northbeam has completely
• 17:57
  changed the game
• 17:58
  and they fixed this.
• 17:59
  Only Northbeam
• 18:00
  incrementality
• 18:00
  automates your
• 18:01
  incrementality test
• 18:02
  design and monitoring
• 18:03
  while protecting you
• 18:05
  from the major mistakes
• 18:06
  that plague
• 18:06
  incrementality testing.
• 18:08
  Northbeam builds tests
• 18:09
  using your own
• 18:10
  MTA data,
• 18:12
  launches them directly
• 18:12
  in ad platforms,
• 18:13
  and automatically
• 18:14
  monitors them
• 18:15
  throughout.
• 18:16
  If something
• 18:17
  threatens validity,
• 18:18
  you're alerted
• 18:18
  before it ruins
• 18:19
  the result.
• 18:20
  With Northbeam,
• 18:21
  you can launch
• 18:22
  tests in platform
• 18:23
  with a single click,
• 18:24
  saving you tons
• 18:25
  of time and reducing
• 18:26
  any chance
• 18:27
  for errors.
• 18:28
  And when the
• 18:29
  test concludes,
• 18:30
  your results flow
• 18:31
  straight into your
• 18:32
  MTA,
• 18:33
  meaning you can
• 18:33
  easily see results
• 18:34
  alongside the rest
• 18:35
  of your data.
• 18:37
  Incrementality
• 18:37
  was broken.
• 18:38
  Northbeam fixed it.
• 18:39
  Point is like,
• 18:40
  look,
• 18:40
  Meta does the scaling
• 18:41
  for me.
• 18:42
  You talk about
• 18:43
  this strategy
• 18:43
  and what else
• 18:44
  is how you do it,
• 18:45
  how you set it up
• 18:46
  more specifically.
• 18:48
  Yeah,
• 18:49
  so everybody
• 18:50
  knows that I don't
• 18:51
  like Cost Cap
• 18:51
  for testing,
• 18:52
  but I really,
• 18:53
  really love them
• 18:53
  for scaling.
• 18:55
  I realized that
• 18:56
  two years
• 18:57
  for one Black Friday
• 18:58
  and I was like,
• 18:59
  okay,
• 18:59
  I have this scaling
• 19:00
  campaign,
• 19:01
  but I realized
• 19:02
  that I don't want
• 19:03
  to have the same ad
• 19:04
  in a different campaign
• 19:05
  without a reason.
• 19:06
  So,
• 19:06
  okay,
• 19:06
  if it's different
• 19:07
  optimization,
• 19:08
  okay,
• 19:09
  highest volume
• 19:10
  or highest volume,
• 19:11
  value,
• 19:12
  yeah,
• 19:12
  yeah,
• 19:13
  so if I move that
• 19:14
  or if I change
• 19:14
  the attribution setting
• 19:15
  or if I add interest,
• 19:17
  that in my eyes
• 19:18
  tells Facebook,
• 19:19
  okay,
• 19:19
  this is slightly different.
• 19:20
  So,
• 19:21
  I'm okay
• 19:21
  with kind of like,
• 19:23
  I have the tests
• 19:24
  in my testing
• 19:25
  and I keep scaling them.
• 19:26
  Sometimes I get
• 19:27
  from 100 to 300.
• 19:28
  Sometimes I get
• 19:29
  from 100 to 5K
• 19:31
  just because tests work
• 19:32
  and I continue
• 19:33
  to increase the budget.
• 19:34
  When I move the winners
• 19:35
  into scaling campaigns,
• 19:37
  so my scaling campaign
• 19:38
  is on 7 Day Click,
• 19:39
  I call this
• 19:40
  winners of the winners.
• 19:41
  It's like a gladiators arena.
• 19:43
  It's just one ad set
• 19:44
  and all of the winners.
• 19:45
  I don't care
• 19:46
  which ad is going to win
• 19:47
  because all of them
• 19:48
  are winners
• 19:48
  and I'm comfortable
• 19:49
  using cost cap
• 19:50
  because all of them
• 19:51
  are winners.
• 19:51
  So,
• 19:51
  if I put cost cap
• 19:52
  of 50,
• 19:53
  Facebook spending 55,
• 19:55
  I'm cool
• 19:55
  because it giving me volume
• 19:56
  but I know
• 19:57
  it will never spend 80
• 19:58
  because this is a proven ad.
• 20:00
  So,
• 20:00
  I'm okay,
• 20:01
  you know,
• 20:01
  leveraging manual bids
• 20:02
  for scaling.
• 20:03
  What you mentioned,
• 20:04
  Advantage Shopping Plus,
• 20:05
  the fact is
• 20:06
  that's the old
• 20:07
  Advantage Shopping Plus
• 20:08
  where we could define
• 20:09
  that percentage
• 20:10
  of spend for buyers.
• 20:12
  The thing is,
• 20:13
  like,
• 20:13
  I never turned it off.
• 20:14
  So,
• 20:15
  in 7 out of,
• 20:16
  like,
• 20:16
  say,
• 20:17
  10 ad accounts,
• 20:17
  I still have that OG
• 20:18
  Advantage Shopping Plus
• 20:19
  running.
• 20:21
  If I do not,
• 20:21
  then it's just one campaign
• 20:23
  with one ad set.
• 20:24
  As I said,
• 20:25
  I limit it to 7 Day Click
• 20:26
  because I found that
• 20:27
  that old Advantage Shopping Plus
• 20:29
  was doing a bit more retargeting
• 20:30
  regardless,
• 20:31
  you know,
• 20:32
  similar setup.
• 20:33
  So,
• 20:33
  I don't want Facebook
• 20:34
  over attributing
• 20:35
  on view sales
• 20:35
  that is not
• 20:37
  responsible
• 20:38
  and what's the beauty
• 20:39
  of this weekend scaling?
• 20:41
  I realized that
• 20:42
  conversion rate is better
• 20:43
  because more people
• 20:43
  are on the phone.
• 20:44
  So,
• 20:45
  there's,
• 20:46
  I never knew
• 20:46
  to what extent
• 20:47
  I can scale on a weekend.
• 20:48
  I know I can scale
• 20:49
  but I don't know
• 20:49
  whether I can increase
• 20:50
  from 1K to 2K
• 20:51
  or from 1K to 5K
• 20:53
  and how to increase
• 20:54
  that budget
• 20:54
  without actually disturbing it.
• 20:56
  So,
• 20:57
  if you would,
• 20:57
  like,
• 20:57
  look a graph
• 20:58
  of my campaigns,
• 21:00
  Andrew,
• 21:00
  I think I shared that
• 21:01
  on the Elizabethan presentation.
• 21:04
  My testing campaign,
• 21:05
  like,
• 21:05
  goes like this
• 21:06
  because I,
• 21:06
  like,
• 21:07
  I just increased
• 21:07
  the budget
• 21:08
  of what's working.
• 21:10
  My interest campaign
• 21:11
  is,
• 21:11
  like,
• 21:11
  it's always steady.
• 21:12
  It's always on,
• 21:13
  like,
• 21:13
  let's say 5K
• 21:14
  but the cost cap one
• 21:15
  is,
• 21:15
  like,
• 21:15
  you know,
• 21:16
  it's like this.
• 21:17
  On Tuesday,
• 21:17
  it spent,
• 21:18
  I don't know,
• 21:19
  3K.
• 21:19
  On Thursday,
• 21:20
  it spent 7K.
• 21:21
  On weekend,
• 21:22
  it spent,
• 21:22
  like,
• 21:22
  25K
• 21:23
  just because it can.
• 21:24
  And I'm okay
• 21:25
  giving it,
• 21:26
  getting a higher,
• 21:27
  slightly higher CPA
• 21:28
  because it brings me volume.
• 21:30
  I have a million
• 21:31
  follow-up questions
• 21:32
  and,
• 21:32
  like,
• 21:32
  randomly specific things.
• 21:34
  So,
• 21:34
  I might be bouncing
• 21:36
  around a lot here.
• 21:36
  You mentioned
• 21:37
  the attribution settings.
• 21:38
  You mentioned
• 21:39
  a bunch of different things.
• 21:39
  Like,
• 21:39
  you could change something
• 21:40
  about the campaign
• 21:41
  or the targeting
• 21:42
  or whatever.
• 21:43
  Like,
• 21:43
  some of those settings
• 21:44
  to tell meta
• 21:45
  there's something
• 21:45
  different about this.
• 21:46
  Exactly.
• 21:47
  Do you actually
• 21:47
  scale by changing?
• 21:49
  Like,
• 21:49
  are you setting up
• 21:50
  maybe new ad sets
• 21:51
  with 7-day click,
• 21:52
  7-day click,
• 21:53
  1-day view,
• 21:53
  7-day click,
• 21:54
  1-day engage view,
• 21:55
  1-day click?
• 21:56
  Are you actually playing
• 21:57
  with those
• 21:57
  as a scale mechanism
• 21:59
  at all?
• 22:00
  So,
• 22:00
  my first campaign
• 22:01
  is ABO testing
• 22:03
  on highest volume
• 22:05
  on 7-day click,
• 22:06
  1-day view
• 22:06
  unless there's
• 22:07
  too many view conversions.
• 22:08
  So,
• 22:09
  basically,
• 22:09
  when I check
• 22:10
  into the ad account,
• 22:11
  if there's more
• 22:11
  than 25% view conversions
• 22:13
  and AOE is not 400+,
• 22:15
  I would use
• 22:16
  exclusively 7-day click.
• 22:18
  If,
• 22:18
  you know,
• 22:19
  everything looks fine,
• 22:20
  I would use 7-day click,
• 22:21
  1-day view.
• 22:21
  Then,
• 22:22
  I would move
• 22:22
  the winners
• 22:23
  into that audience campaign
• 22:24
  as I mentioned.
• 22:25
  So,
• 22:25
  that's kind of like,
• 22:25
  okay,
• 22:25
  that's a different direction
• 22:26
  because I'm using audience.
• 22:28
  And then,
• 22:28
  the third direction
• 22:29
  is this 7-day click
• 22:30
  on manual bids,
• 22:32
  which is combining
• 22:32
  two different things.
• 22:34
  So,
• 22:34
  I think I pretty much
• 22:34
  covered that.
• 22:36
  Sometimes,
• 22:36
  recently,
• 22:37
  I started playing
• 22:38
  with incremental
• 22:38
  attribution
• 22:40
  or when the AOE
• 22:41
  is higher
• 22:41
  or there's,
• 22:42
  like,
• 22:42
  a lot of skews,
• 22:43
  then I would play
• 22:44
  with the volume.
• 22:46
  But I think I cover,
• 22:47
  like,
• 22:47
  four out of five things
• 22:48
  in those three campaigns
• 22:49
  of mine.
• 22:50
  So,
• 22:50
  you mentioned
• 22:51
  the OG AFCs
• 22:52
  and,
• 22:53
  like,
• 22:53
  the ability
• 22:53
  to set the percentage.
• 22:54
  Do you have,
• 22:55
  do you have,
• 22:55
  like,
• 22:55
  a playbook
• 22:56
  for retention campaigns
• 22:57
  or actually trying
• 22:58
  to go and reacquire customers?
• 23:01
  Most of my customers
• 23:02
  do not
• 23:03
  want to,
• 23:04
  like,
• 23:04
  reacquire customers.
• 23:05
  Some,
• 23:06
  I'd say,
• 23:06
  like,
• 23:07
  okay,
• 23:07
  but,
• 23:07
  like,
• 23:07
  if someone did not
• 23:08
  bought from you
• 23:10
  for,
• 23:11
  like,
• 23:11
  I don't know,
• 23:11
  six months,
• 23:12
  do you consider
• 23:12
  that person
• 23:13
  a new customer?
• 23:14
  If they say yes,
• 23:15
  then I would create
• 23:16
  a campaign,
• 23:17
  but I would create
• 23:17
  a separate campaign
• 23:18
  that's targeting.
• 23:19
  I would never allow
• 23:20
  that to be
• 23:21
  into my prospecting
• 23:22
  campaign
• 23:22
  because you can
• 23:23
  never trust
• 23:23
  Facebook with that
• 23:25
  if you just go
• 23:26
  for the lowest
• 23:27
  conversion.
• 23:27
  So,
• 23:27
  I would set up
• 23:28
  a different campaign
• 23:29
  going only
• 23:29
  for those customers.
• 23:31
  And that's mostly,
• 23:32
  you know,
• 23:32
  in some skincare
• 23:33
  or clothing.
• 23:34
  And also,
• 23:34
  during the promotions,
• 23:36
  people are,
• 23:37
  brands are okay,
• 23:37
  they're fine
• 23:38
  with going after
• 23:39
  those customers.
• 23:40
  So,
• 23:40
  then I would set up
• 23:41
  a campaign like that.
• 23:43
  Yeah.
• 23:43
  I have a question
• 23:44
  about just overlap
• 23:44
  in general.
• 23:45
  Like,
• 23:45
  you have multiple campaigns,
• 23:47
  you have a ton
• 23:47
  of different ad sets
• 23:48
  going on.
• 23:48
  Do you concern yourself
• 23:49
  with overlap?
• 23:50
  Or is like,
• 23:51
  hey,
• 23:51
  the number is going up,
• 23:53
  I'll pay attention
• 23:54
  to CPMR
• 23:54
  or something like that,
• 23:55
  but like,
• 23:56
  otherwise,
• 23:56
  the number is going up,
• 23:57
  it's fine.
• 23:58
  Yeah.
• 23:58
  So,
• 23:59
  I think,
• 23:59
  like,
• 23:59
  I definitely track
• 24:00
  CPMR and frequency
• 24:02
  and like,
• 24:03
  I'm cool with
• 24:04
  leaving an ad
• 24:04
  active if it has
• 24:06
  a bad CPA,
• 24:07
  but it has a very
• 24:08
  low frequency
• 24:08
  because it tells me
• 24:10
  that it's feeding
• 24:10
  top of the funnel.
• 24:12
  But I'm not going
• 24:12
  to turn off an ad
• 24:13
  that has a good
• 24:14
  performance just because
• 24:16
  it has a bad
• 24:16
  CPMR.
• 24:17
  And I think
• 24:18
  that it is
• 24:19
  healthy conversation
• 24:20
  that like,
• 24:20
  everybody are starting
• 24:21
  to measuring that.
• 24:22
  But I think
• 24:23
  we are going
• 24:23
  like in a bit
• 24:25
  like too extreme
• 24:26
  that like,
• 24:26
  okay,
• 24:26
  CPMR is better
• 24:27
  than the CPA.
• 24:28
  That like,
• 24:29
  that's not the case.
• 24:30
  Obviously,
• 24:30
  it is important,
• 24:31
  but it's also important
• 24:32
  that people see
• 24:33
  your ads
• 24:34
  multiple times.
• 24:35
  And when I have
• 24:36
  like,
• 24:36
  you know,
• 24:37
  30 different influencer,
• 24:39
  I have 10 different angles,
• 24:40
  I have,
• 24:41
  you know,
• 24:42
  that creative diversification,
• 24:43
  they're not actually
• 24:44
  seeing one ad
• 24:44
  for eight times.
• 24:45
  They're seeing like seven
• 24:46
  different ads.
• 24:47
  So I think that actually
• 24:48
  also is beneficial
• 24:50
  to an extent.
• 24:51
  Obviously,
• 24:51
  I'm tracking that
• 24:52
  with a tool
• 24:53
  that Andrew and Kurt
• 24:54
  built,
• 24:55
  which is super helpful
• 24:55
  for net new reach.
• 24:58
  And that's obviously
• 24:59
  one of the metrics
• 25:00
  that I measure,
• 25:01
  as well as the percentage
• 25:02
  of new visits
• 25:03
  in Norbeam.
• 25:04
  But it's not,
• 25:05
  you know,
• 25:05
  I'm not going to turn off
• 25:06
  a good ad just because
• 25:08
  it has a bad frequency.
• 25:09
  Yeah.
• 25:11
  Okay.
• 25:11
  Then my last question
• 25:11
  related to this is,
• 25:13
  I mean,
• 25:14
  it's kind of overlappy,
• 25:15
  but are you using
• 25:16
  the actual like experiments
• 25:17
  tab in Meta
• 25:18
  at all for anything?
• 25:20
  No.
• 25:20
  Okay.
• 25:21
  Really interesting.
• 25:21
  So no holdout tests,
• 25:23
  no A-B testing
• 25:23
  directly in Meta?
• 25:25
  No,
• 25:25
  no.
• 25:26
  If you're doing holdouts,
• 25:27
  it's mostly through
• 25:27
  House or WorkMagic.
• 25:29
  When you've done
• 25:30
  holdout tests,
• 25:32
  what have they
• 25:33
  shown you
• 25:34
  that's been useful?
• 25:35
  Cool.
• 25:36
  I ask because
• 25:37
  there's a lot of
• 25:37
  discussion about this now
• 25:39
  and, you know,
• 25:40
  Northbeam has
• 25:41
  an internal tool
• 25:42
  that is doing this,
• 25:44
  which I think
• 25:44
  is actually pretty good.
• 25:46
  And it's,
• 25:47
  I think it's something
• 25:48
  that as,
• 25:49
  especially as budgets
• 25:50
  go up and complexity
• 25:51
  starts to get bigger
• 25:52
  that like,
• 25:53
  it's huge for people
• 25:54
  to understand like,
• 25:54
  okay, look,
• 25:55
  you know,
• 25:56
  so much of our traffic
• 25:57
  from YouTube
• 25:57
  is actually converting
• 25:58
  on Amazon or whatever.
• 26:00
  So like,
• 26:01
  what types of stuff
• 26:01
  are you,
• 26:02
  have you seen
• 26:03
  that's been surprising
• 26:03
  or helpful to you?
• 26:05
  Yeah,
• 26:06
  potentially I can touch
• 26:07
  base on the incremental
• 26:08
  attribution.
• 26:09
  Again,
• 26:09
  like I know this is
• 26:10
  like a hot topic now,
• 26:11
  but when I do the breakdown
• 26:13
  in my ad accounts,
• 26:14
  like incremental
• 26:15
  turns out to be
• 26:16
  90 to 95%
• 26:18
  of seven day click attribution.
• 26:19
  So it's not really,
• 26:20
  you know,
• 26:21
  something game changing.
• 26:22
  I think it's like
• 26:22
  a tool in a toolbox,
• 26:24
  but I would not necessarily
• 26:25
  change my whole ad account
• 26:26
  to incremental
• 26:27
  just because
• 26:27
  Twitter is talking about it.
• 26:29
  In terms of the tests,
• 26:31
  so I did try,
• 26:32
  you know,
• 26:33
  add to cart
• 26:34
  and view content,
• 26:35
  never worked for me.
• 26:36
  Like I did five tests
• 26:37
  with two different platforms,
• 26:38
  never worked for me.
• 26:39
  So I'm not sure what,
• 26:41
  how come that's working
• 26:42
  for Ridge,
• 26:42
  but I mean,
• 26:43
  I guess it's working.
• 26:44
  In terms of the other channels,
• 26:46
  we found out definitely
• 26:47
  what you mentioned,
• 26:48
  YouTube has a way bigger impact
• 26:50
  on Amazon
• 26:51
  compared to just Shopify.
• 26:54
  We found that
• 26:55
  Google third-party pages,
• 26:57
  third-party funnels
• 26:58
  have bigger impact
• 26:59
  on overall performance
• 27:01
  than if it is visible
• 27:02
  in the ad account.
• 27:04
  We also had some success
• 27:06
  with Vibe
• 27:08
  on the CTV,
• 27:10
  but we realized
• 27:11
  that it's very hard
• 27:13
  to, you know,
• 27:14
  understand whether Facebook,
• 27:16
  which is spending like,
• 27:16
  you know,
• 27:17
  20, 30 times more
• 27:18
  than the Vibe,
• 27:18
  has an impact
• 27:19
  on good performance
• 27:20
  of Vibe
• 27:20
  or Vibe has a good impact
• 27:22
  on the Facebook.
• 27:24
  So we are going to do
• 27:25
  some additional tests there.
• 27:27
  Besides that,
• 27:28
  still did not do
• 27:30
  app loving tests,
• 27:31
  but that's on one
• 27:32
  of my clients' maps.
• 27:35
  So interested to see that
• 27:37
  because I know everybody
• 27:38
  are, again,
• 27:39
  think how they scaled
• 27:40
  app loving.
• 27:41
  I never managed
• 27:42
  to scale it.
• 27:43
  No matter if I'm spending
• 27:44
  50K a day on Facebook,
• 27:46
  I could not get app loving
• 27:48
  to spend more than 2, 3.
• 27:49
  So I'm not sure
• 27:50
  if I'm missing something
• 27:51
  or,
• 27:52
  but yeah,
• 27:53
  those are kind of like
• 27:54
  the main takeaways,
• 27:55
  at least from,
• 27:56
  you know,
• 27:57
  a couple of clients
• 27:58
  that are doing those tests.
• 28:00
  The only thing I would say
• 28:01
  on app loving,
• 28:02
  the only,
• 28:03
  we've seen,
• 28:03
  we've seen similar things
• 28:04
  to you where it's like
• 28:05
  most people just don't hit scale.
• 28:08
  But we had a conversation
• 28:08
  with Miranda months ago
• 28:11
  and that was like,
• 28:12
  I wrote down a whole,
• 28:14
  I had a whole notebook
• 28:14
  of notes,
• 28:15
  which I'm about to have
• 28:16
  with you.
• 28:17
  And I went back
• 28:18
  and I just like picked
• 28:19
  a couple of things
• 28:19
  and the thing that hit
• 28:20
  the best for us
• 28:21
  was changing the hooks.
• 28:23
  We did port over
• 28:24
  the meta
• 28:25
  creative directly
• 28:26
  and she said,
• 28:27
  she basically said,
• 28:27
  don't do that.
• 28:28
  But she says like,
• 28:29
  as a starting point,
• 28:30
  it's fine to do,
• 28:31
  but that's not where
• 28:32
  you're going to get
• 28:32
  the biggest bang for your buck.
• 28:33
  The biggest thing
• 28:34
  that made a difference
• 28:35
  for us from a creative perspective
• 28:36
  was literally just
• 28:36
  swapping out the hook
• 28:37
  to like be something
• 28:38
  about addressing the fact
• 28:39
  that we just interrupted
• 28:40
  their game.
• 28:41
  Like, hey,
• 28:41
  we'll get you right back
• 28:42
  to your game
• 28:42
  or sorry to interrupt your game
• 28:44
  or like something
• 28:45
  literally directly calling it out
• 28:46
  and it made a huge difference.
• 28:48
  Like the top performing ads
• 28:48
  were all starting
• 28:50
  with that hook
• 28:51
  and the rest of the,
• 28:52
  the rest of the,
• 28:53
  the video is the same.
• 28:54
  So interesting.
• 28:55
  I'll be curious
• 28:55
  to hear what you...
• 28:56
  How did you then try
• 28:57
  to get that creator
• 28:58
  to film a hook
• 28:59
  or was it the hook
• 28:59
  totally unrelated
• 29:00
  to the creator?
• 29:02
  Yeah.
• 29:03
  Because if you get
• 29:04
  like 20 winners
• 29:05
  and then like you get to,
• 29:06
  you have to ask
• 29:07
  like 20 people
• 29:07
  to actually refilm the hook.
• 29:09
  So was it just generic hook?
• 29:12
  Yeah, that's a really good question.
• 29:13
  In this specific case,
• 29:14
  the ones that stood out the most,
• 29:15
  it was an AI voiceover
• 29:16
  with creator B-roll.
• 29:18
  So we just,
• 29:18
  we were able to,
• 29:19
  the videos that were working
• 29:21
  in general
• 29:21
  were just kind of like
• 29:22
  B-rolled with voiceovers.
• 29:24
  So we were just able
• 29:25
  to swap out
• 29:25
  the messaging
• 29:26
  with an AI voiceover.
• 29:28
  That's...
• 29:29
  But I bet you'd have
• 29:29
  more success
• 29:30
  by like maybe taking
• 29:31
  your five best creators
• 29:33
  and asking them
• 29:34
  to film something
• 29:35
  really specific.
• 29:35
  That could be interesting.
• 29:37
  I haven't been able
• 29:37
  to do that yet.
• 29:38
  So if you do,
• 29:39
  you have to let me know
• 29:39
  how it goes.
• 29:40
  Sounds good.
• 29:41
  Yeah, you should start
• 29:42
  with like,
• 29:42
  hey loser,
• 29:43
  get off your phone.
• 29:45
  Yeah, you're just
• 29:46
  close to life.
• 29:48
  Yeah, exactly.
• 29:49
  Your kids in front of you,
• 29:51
  like why aren't,
• 29:51
  you know,
• 29:52
  make them feel really bad.
• 29:53
  That usually works.
• 29:54
  So let's talk about
• 29:55
  the hack segment
• 29:57
  a little bit briefly,
• 29:58
  which is like,
• 29:58
  what's the closest thing
• 29:59
  right now to a hack
• 30:01
  that you've seen
• 30:01
  inside meta?
• 30:02
  So you change this,
• 30:03
  it's like,
• 30:04
  and it is a dramatic shift.
• 30:05
  What are like one
• 30:06
  to two things
• 30:07
  that you,
• 30:07
  that you're adjusting
• 30:08
  that you're like,
• 30:09
  man,
• 30:09
  that's really an unlock?
• 30:10
  I mean,
• 30:11
  I like,
• 30:12
  I like hacks,
• 30:13
  but like,
• 30:13
  I don't think like hacks
• 30:14
  are just a nice addition,
• 30:15
  you know,
• 30:16
  like having a proper exclusion,
• 30:17
  having not reliance
• 30:19
  on existing buyers,
• 30:20
  no viewed conversions,
• 30:21
  like knowing when to scale,
• 30:23
  knowing how much to scale,
• 30:25
  that matters the most.
• 30:26
  And although I'm a media buyer,
• 30:27
  like,
• 30:28
  you know,
• 30:28
  product,
• 30:29
  offer,
• 30:30
  funnel,
• 30:30
  creative,
• 30:31
  they have way bigger impact
• 30:32
  than the media buying.
• 30:33
  I can make results
• 30:34
  when like client is spending,
• 30:36
  like everything else
• 30:37
  is dialed in,
• 30:38
  then the media buying
• 30:40
  again makes a difference.
• 30:41
  But you know,
• 30:42
  at like,
• 30:42
  at lower level,
• 30:43
  probably like focus
• 30:44
  on the offer,
• 30:45
  offer,
• 30:46
  like I've seen tremendous changes
• 30:48
  in the hit rates
• 30:48
  just by changing the offer.
• 30:51
  So that's definitely
• 30:52
  one thing outside
• 30:53
  of the ad account.
• 30:54
  Also remember,
• 30:55
  everything else
• 30:56
  outside of the ad account
• 30:57
  has a tremendous impact
• 30:58
  on the ad account.
• 31:00
  In terms of the ad account,
• 31:01
  I still pick
• 31:02
  all of my thumbnails manually.
• 31:04
  And like,
• 31:05
  I just kind of like,
• 31:06
  it felt like
• 31:07
  I got a recognition
• 31:08
  when Facebook confirmed
• 31:09
  that a different thumbnail
• 31:11
  actually means
• 31:12
  different entity ID
• 31:13
  because like I was,
• 31:14
  I did not know why,
• 31:15
  but like,
• 31:16
  I like for four or five years
• 31:19
  when back in the day
• 31:20
  when I worked with Yudi,
• 31:21
  I realized that
• 31:21
  a different thumbnail
• 31:22
  can impact the performance
• 31:24
  of the same video
• 31:25
  in a different way.
• 31:26
  So still me
• 31:27
  and all of my media buyers
• 31:28
  and my junior media buyers,
• 31:30
  everybody are picking
• 31:31
  thumbnails manually.
• 31:32
  I think,
• 31:33
  I think it has
• 31:33
  a positive impact.
• 31:35
  Although I must say,
• 31:35
  Facebook is getting better
• 31:36
  and picking that
• 31:37
  automatic thumbnail
• 31:38
  compared to,
• 31:39
  let's say,
• 31:39
  a year before.
• 31:41
  Yeah.
• 31:41
  It's funny.
• 31:42
  You basically don't like hacks
• 31:43
  and I agree.
• 31:44
  Like we put it in there
• 31:45
  intentionally
• 31:45
  because it kind of like
• 31:46
  pushes you to say,
• 31:47
  like pick,
• 31:47
  pick,
• 31:48
  have an opinion about hacks.
• 31:49
  And it's,
• 31:49
  it's hilarious
• 31:50
  because like you probably feel
• 31:51
  like you're repeating yourself
• 31:53
  pretty often
• 31:53
  and maybe the content
• 31:54
  that you make
• 31:55
  and you still get people
• 31:56
  that are like,
• 31:57
  they don't have exclusions.
• 31:58
  They're not using,
• 31:59
  you know,
• 31:59
  it's like you still see
• 32:00
  a million people
• 32:01
  who are just doing crazy shit
• 32:02
  and wondering why nothing's working.
• 32:04
  And sometimes it's just like
• 32:05
  those simple things
• 32:06
  ends up being the hack for them
• 32:07
  because they weren't doing
• 32:08
  in the first place.
• 32:09
  Yeah.
• 32:10
  So no,
• 32:11
  that's funny.
• 32:12
  One thing that we've,
• 32:13
  I'll throw in,
• 32:14
  I'll throw in one little hacky thing
• 32:15
  just as something
• 32:17
  that continues to work for us
• 32:18
  is just like customers
• 32:19
  that are uploading images
• 32:20
  as reviews,
• 32:21
  just taking them as is
• 32:22
  and uploading it as an ad
• 32:23
  gets you creative volume,
• 32:25
  gets you creative diversity.
• 32:26
  They're probably super blurry
• 32:28
  and that's the point.
• 32:29
  Like it,
• 32:29
  it just works really well
• 32:30
  and we just keep doing that on repeat.
• 32:32
  Yeah.
• 32:32
  Now that you mentioned that
• 32:33
  there's like something thing,
• 32:35
  like usually I found that
• 32:36
  for most problem solving product,
• 32:38
  images do mostly retargeting.
• 32:40
  We just do top of the funnel
• 32:41
  while like on,
• 32:42
  you know,
• 32:42
  on clothing,
• 32:43
  jewelry,
• 32:44
  images actually do the prospecting.
• 32:45
  So we found that like,
• 32:46
  I could not,
• 32:47
  like there's one client,
• 32:48
  like we're spending 50K a day,
• 32:49
  like 99% of my ads are videos.
• 32:52
  I could not get images to work
• 32:53
  and then we just replicated.
• 32:56
  It's a beauty client.
• 32:57
  We just replicated,
• 32:58
  you know,
• 32:59
  it felt like a story.
• 33:01
  It was like a text,
• 33:02
  organic text overlay,
• 33:04
  like what you would put on a story
• 33:05
  and it was just an image
• 33:06
  and like those ads are getting,
• 33:08
  I would say like 50% of delivery
• 33:11
  on story and reels
• 33:13
  and they feel organic
• 33:14
  and this is something
• 33:15
  that we finally managed to break out
• 33:18
  with images
• 33:19
  and got some traction.
• 33:20
  Again,
• 33:21
  I can't think because it looks organic.
• 33:23
  It's so interesting.
• 33:24
  I've been literally in the last,
• 33:26
  I mean,
• 33:27
  I've been thinking about it
• 33:27
  for longer than this,
• 33:28
  but like in the last two weeks,
• 33:29
  I've had this like weird obsession
• 33:30
  with like formats
• 33:32
  where like you can communicate
• 33:34
  the same message
• 33:35
  in a bunch of different ways,
• 33:36
  but also the type of content
• 33:38
  that somebody is consuming
• 33:39
  to your points,
• 33:40
  like stories and reels
• 33:41
  is different.
• 33:41
  Like Zach's a great example of this.
• 33:44
  Like they have compression socks
• 33:45
  for Holo
• 33:45
  and there's probably 80 year old dudes
• 33:47
  that are buying it
• 33:48
  and 30 year old nurses
• 33:49
  and the type of content
• 33:51
  that they're consuming
• 33:51
  is very different.
• 33:53
  It's like they expect
• 33:54
  a different format
• 33:54
  and so maybe it's the same,
• 33:56
  it ends up being the same message
• 33:57
  which your legs are going to hurt less
• 33:58
  or whatever it is,
• 33:59
  but how you communicate it
• 34:01
  and just even the style of creative
• 34:02
  can unlock different pockets
• 34:04
  of audience.
• 34:05
  So I like that.
• 34:06
  That's a good one.
• 34:08
  Nice.
• 34:08
  And those are easy to make too.
• 34:09
  Like those are easy.
• 34:10
  Yeah, exactly.
• 34:10
  They're super easy.
• 34:11
  Slap a question and answer on it.
• 34:13
  Exactly.
• 34:14
  So how are you just,
• 34:15
  how are you using AI by the way?
• 34:18
  Like, and by the way,
• 34:19
  if you haven't checked out
• 34:20
  the new Foxhole podcast,
• 34:21
  releasing or will be released
• 34:24
  by the time this comes out,
• 34:25
  AI D2C WTF,
• 34:28
  which is a new podcast
• 34:29
  I started up to talk about
• 34:30
  all this stuff even more deeply.
• 34:32
  But how are you using AI now?
• 34:33
  Is it with reporting
• 34:35
  or creating different variations
• 34:37
  or is it all that stuff?
• 34:39
  And if so, like what are you doing?
• 34:41
  Yeah.
• 34:41
  So I'm not on the level
• 34:42
  that Will is.
• 34:44
  Like when I see his conversation,
• 34:45
  Will, that was on some of your podcasts
• 34:48
  and like when I see the presentation
• 34:49
  that he did in this,
• 34:50
  I was like, okay, wow.
• 34:51
  Like I would never be able to do that.
• 34:53
  I did actually follow his template
• 34:54
  and I managed to get close,
• 34:56
  but I'm personally nowhere near that.
• 34:59
  What I like to do it
• 35:00
  is like for research,
• 35:02
  for like synthesizing the data.
• 35:04
  For example,
• 35:05
  I gave it my whole YouTube video
• 35:07
  for my whole YouTube channel
• 35:08
  and like I told it to create
• 35:09
  my media buying philosophy.
• 35:11
  It created like 50 pages document
• 35:13
  and then I uploaded that to Claude.
• 35:15
  And now like, you know,
• 35:16
  whenever there's a question,
• 35:17
  I can get an answer from that
• 35:20
  or like I can get a new script
• 35:22
  for YouTube based on my whole knowledge.
• 35:24
  That's one thing.
• 35:25
  The other thing is
• 35:26
  in terms of the ads,
• 35:27
  I gave it my top five spending ads
• 35:31
  and then I gave it one of my template
• 35:34
  of a listicle page that we are running
• 35:36
  and I told it to change the reasons
• 35:37
  based on the reasons,
• 35:39
  based on the angles from the ads.
• 35:40
  And that landing page is currently
• 35:42
  like that listicle is outperforming
• 35:44
  our current listicle,
• 35:46
  you know, by 10% of click rate
• 35:47
  and like it's getting a nice traction
• 35:49
  in Orbeam as well.
• 35:51
  So that would be one
• 35:51
  like practical example
• 35:54
  of me using AI.
• 35:56
  Besides that, you know,
• 35:57
  like when you're doing media buying,
• 35:59
  there's not much you can do
• 36:01
  compared to when you're a copywriter
• 36:03
  or developer or creative strategist.
• 36:04
  So it's just like mostly trying
• 36:07
  to kind of like improve my workflow
• 36:10
  and save some time either on analysis
• 36:13
  or on the reporting or
• 36:14
  synthesizing the data.
• 36:16
  I might be leaking something here.
• 36:17
  What do you use for creative reporting?
• 36:20
  It's mostly Motion or Atria
• 36:22
  depending on the client.
• 36:24
  Yeah.
• 36:25
  Motion has an MCP connector now.
• 36:27
  This is what I'm potentially leaking.
• 36:29
  I don't know if it's
• 36:29
  available to everybody,
• 36:30
  but they gave me access to it.
• 36:31
  It's awesome.
• 36:32
  It's like, I don't know if you use
• 36:33
  the chat feature inside of Motion at all,
• 36:36
  but it's really nice.
• 36:38
  You should reach out to them
• 36:40
  and just ask if they can turn on
• 36:41
  the MCP connector for you
• 36:42
  because it can pull all those AI tags.
• 36:45
  So like here's an example.
• 36:46
  You mentioned landing pages.
• 36:47
  You could say,
• 36:49
  hey Motion, can you go grab
• 36:50
  the top trending tags for me
• 36:51
  in the last 30 days
• 36:52
  for my messaging angle?
• 36:54
  Okay, so it's going to grab that
• 36:55
  and it's going to say,
• 36:56
  here's how the spend breaks down
• 36:57
  as a percentage of your ad account
• 36:59
  for this angle, this angle, this angle.
• 37:01
  You take the top spending one
• 37:02
  and then it can grab the messaging.
• 37:03
  So it can pull the scripts for those ads
• 37:05
  and it can give you the scripts
• 37:07
  and then it can synthesize it
• 37:09
  and write a landing page
• 37:09
  in the customer language
• 37:10
  from those top ads.
• 37:12
  If you wanted to,
• 37:12
  if you could set up a schedule in Cloud,
• 37:14
  like you could have that do it,
• 37:15
  just like present you
• 37:15
  a new landing page every week.
• 37:17
  That's a little overkill probably,
• 37:18
  but it's been fun.
• 37:20
  Yeah, basically that's what I did,
• 37:21
  but I did manually through Manus.
• 37:23
  Hey, here are the ads.
• 37:24
  Hey, can you transcribe me?
• 37:25
  Hey, here's the landing page.
• 37:26
  Hey, make it a landing page.
• 37:27
  So basically it was me involving,
• 37:28
  but if I can do that without me actually
• 37:31
  instructing all of that,
• 37:33
  that would be amazing.
• 37:33
  So I'll definitely check that out.
• 37:36
  Manus.
• 37:36
  I haven't played with Manus too much,
• 37:38
  but I feel like Zaka is going to
• 37:39
  ban me from the world
• 37:41
  if I don't start using it.
• 37:43
  You know they're going
• 37:43
  to be talking about it
• 37:44
  at the Meta Performance Marketing Summit
• 37:46
  quite a lot.
• 37:48
  So outside of the things
• 37:50
  that we've talked about,
• 37:51
  you know, I think one of the things
• 37:52
  that people look to you for
• 37:53
  is very, you know,
• 37:57
  deep tactical knowledge
• 37:59
  and deep understanding of this.
• 38:02
  How do you recommend people
• 38:04
  upskill themselves on these things?
• 38:07
  Like, I think there's so many sources.
• 38:09
  I mean, and,
• 38:10
  but I know that you sort of set out
• 38:13
  in building your name around education
• 38:15
  as well, right?
• 38:17
  Like you're, you're very good at that.
• 38:19
  How do you recommend people
• 38:20
  start to get better at this
• 38:21
  and really start to dive in?
• 38:24
  So, I mean,
• 38:25
  I don't know when I started,
• 38:27
  I went through the like whole Google
• 38:28
  and Facebook literature support
• 38:30
  to understand how the auction works.
• 38:31
  Obviously you don't have to do that.
• 38:32
  I did that like eight years ago,
• 38:34
  but like now I'm like spending five mil,
• 38:36
  seven mil a month
• 38:37
  and I'm still listening, you know,
• 38:38
  to five different
• 38:39
  podcasts on media buying.
• 38:42
  I'm going to probably not heard
• 38:43
  probably 90% of the stuff I already know,
• 38:45
  but you know,
• 38:46
  hearing Zach,
• 38:47
  hearing Brad,
• 38:48
  how he does,
• 38:49
  you know,
• 38:49
  that overlay of a testimonial image.
• 38:52
  Okay.
• 38:52
  That's a cool idea.
• 38:53
  Hey,
• 38:53
  doing this with MCP with Twitter,
• 38:55
  you basically just need one good idea
• 38:57
  because there's not
• 38:58
  much that you're missing.
• 39:00
  Obviously,
• 39:00
  if you're on a lower level,
• 39:02
  you have communities besides the podcast,
• 39:05
  obviously,
• 39:05
  Voxfield founders,
• 39:06
  shout out.
• 39:07
  If you're not there,
• 39:08
  you have to be there
• 39:09
  if you want to be serious
• 39:10
  about DTC and e-com
• 39:12
  and you have a library
• 39:14
  of free content on YouTube,
• 39:16
  like there's literally,
• 39:18
  you can start a brand tomorrow.
• 39:20
  You can start being,
• 39:21
  I don't know,
• 39:22
  whatever you want
• 39:23
  because the information
• 39:25
  is already out there.
• 39:26
  You just have to,
• 39:27
  you know,
• 39:28
  stay disciplined,
• 39:28
  stay consistent
• 39:29
  and try to like put it into action.
• 39:33
  It's not enough
• 39:33
  that you just like read about AI.
• 39:36
  You just have to try
• 39:37
  to build something with it.
• 39:38
  And I think that like,
• 39:40
  you know,
• 39:40
  transition from just absorbing
• 39:42
  the information
• 39:43
  to using information
• 39:44
  is actually what makes a difference.
• 39:47
  Well, Martin,
• 39:47
  thank you so much for joining us.
• 39:49
  A very rich episode
• 39:51
  full of so much knowledge
• 39:52
  and so much information.
• 39:53
  And, you know,
• 39:54
  I'm so grateful to you
• 39:55
  for all that you've taught me,
• 39:56
  all that you've taught founders
• 39:57
  and all that you've now taught
• 39:59
  listeners to the podcast.
• 40:00
  So thanks for coming on.
• 40:01
  And for those of you
• 40:02
  that don't know Martin,
• 40:03
  I recommend following him
• 40:04
  on all the channels
• 40:05
  that you can
• 40:06
  because I always learn
• 40:09
  something from your content.
• 40:09
  So thanks for putting it
• 40:10
  out there, my friend.
• 40:11
  Yeah, I appreciate you having me.
• 40:13
  I really enjoyed this episode.
• 40:14
  It was really good conversation.
• 40:15
  I think we covered
• 40:16
  a lot from the technical stuff
• 40:19
  and tactical all the way
• 40:20
  to the holistic.
• 40:21
  And yeah,
• 40:22
  if you have,
• 40:22
  if you guys have any questions,
• 40:24
  just hit me up on Twitter.
• 40:25
  I'll promise I'll respond
• 40:26
  unless you try to sell me
• 40:28
  your DM setting service.
• 40:31
  Maybe,
• 40:32
  maybe,
• 40:32
  maybe throw in a couple arguments
• 40:33
  on X as well.
• 40:34
  You know,
• 40:34
  a little banter back and forth.
• 40:37
  All right,
• 40:37
  take care.
• 40:42
  This episode is brought to you
• 40:43
  by the Foxwell Founders membership
• 40:46
  that Andrew and his wife,
• 40:47
  Gracie run.
• 40:48
  It has been absolutely pivotal
• 40:50
  for not just the Homestead team,
• 40:51
  but the Easy Street Brands team.
• 40:53
  We've had,
• 40:54
  I don't even know
• 40:54
  how many members
• 40:55
  are currently in there
• 40:56
  that are part of our ecosystem.
• 40:57
  But when it comes to anything
• 40:59
  from learning ads
• 41:00
  to understanding what's going on
• 41:01
  to building an agency
• 41:02
  to knowing retention,
• 41:04
  it's been absolutely useful
• 41:05
  for our team
• 41:06
  when they get stuck
• 41:07
  or they need help
• 41:08
  to just go there
• 41:08
  and resource all the other experts.
• 41:10
  So definitely would recommend it
• 41:11
  for anybody that's looking to,
• 41:13
  you know,
• 41:13
  take it a step deeper,
• 41:15
  try to get a little bit more knowledge
• 41:16
  on growth marketing
• 41:17
  and all the world DTC is.
• 41:19
  Yeah,
• 41:19
  I think one of the most
• 41:20
  incredible things about it
• 41:21
  is you can just like
• 41:21
  open up the Slack group
• 41:22
  every single day.
• 41:23
  You can pin your favorite channels
• 41:25
  for the topics
• 41:25
  that you care most about.
• 41:26
  And like every day,
• 41:27
  there's going to be somebody
• 41:28
  who just like,
• 41:29
  because they want to contribute
• 41:30
  something valuable
• 41:31
  to the group,
• 41:32
  you can go learn something
• 41:33
  every single day
• 41:34
  and it's going to be
• 41:35
  extremely useful.
• 41:36
  There's some ballers in there
• 41:37
  that you just get like
• 41:38
  the benefit of learning from
• 41:39
  that like for the cost,
• 41:41
  like you couldn't pay them
• 41:42
  that for their time,
• 41:43
  but through the membership,
• 41:44
  like you get access
• 41:45
  to some incredible people
• 41:46
  and tons of resources.
• 41:48
  Yeah,
• 41:48
  I mean,
• 41:48
  I think the biggest resource
• 41:49
  to me too
• 41:50
  is like the events
• 41:50
  that,
• 41:51
  you know,
• 41:51
  Foxwell Founders does.
• 41:52
  They've been able to do some,
• 41:53
  even in Wisconsin,
• 41:54
  even in the boring state
• 41:56
  of Wisconsin,
• 41:56
  which is pretty awesome,
• 41:58
  getting people together
• 41:59
  in person
• 41:59
  and able to have really
• 42:01
  just like honest conversations
• 42:02
  of what's going on,
• 42:03
  what's working for them now,
• 42:04
  you know,
• 42:04
  where they're at
• 42:05
  in their business
• 42:05
  and knowing that
• 42:06
  there's going to be,
• 42:07
  like Brad said,
• 42:08
  some real killers
• 42:08
  in the space
• 42:09
  in this membership
• 42:10
  that can help
• 42:11
  and are willing
• 42:12
  to take the time
• 42:12
  and help.
• 42:13
  So that's been
• 42:14
  a huge part of why
• 42:15
  a lot of our team
• 42:16
  have really enjoyed it as well.
• 42:17
  And the applications
• 42:18
  are now open
• 42:19
  if you're looking to join.
• 42:20
  Foxwell Founders,
• 42:21
  yeah,
• 42:22
  foxwellfounders.com.
• 42:23
  Go check it out.
• 42:24
  Go apply.
• 42:33
  The only way
• 42:34
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• 42:35
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• 42:37
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• 42:38
  Honestly,
• 42:38
  like reviews kind of
• 42:39
  don't really mean anything
• 42:40
  too much anymore.
• 42:41
  They're really meaningful,
• 42:41
  but they don't do a lot
• 42:43
  for the growth
• 42:43
  of the podcast.
• 42:44
  And so sharing YouTube links,
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  sharing Spotify links,
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  sharing Apple,
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  whatever we call it
• 42:50
  under the podcast app now,
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• 42:53
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• 42:55
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• 42:56
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• 42:56
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• 42:57
  Yeah,
• 42:58
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• 43:08
  So please say something
• 43:08
  nice about all of us.
• 43:11
  Thank you, everyone.
• 43:12
  Thanks for listening.
• 43:13
  Honestly.