Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / The Impact of Loneliness on Health with Dr. Michelle H Lim

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The Impact of Loneliness on Health with Dr. Michelle H Lim · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

0:00
Speaker 1: We're not really addressing loan of this very well in
0:03
Speaker 1: our health systems until now. You know, clinical psychologists are
0:06
Speaker 1: not being trained around what noneliness is. We're just not
0:09
Speaker 1: being trained in this.
0:10
Speaker 2: Area, Doctor Michelle Limb, Welcome to the podcast.
0:23
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Paul.
0:25
Speaker 2: This is a long overdue topic. I think I've done
0:29
Speaker 2: a Wisdom Wednesday on it quite a while ago, just
0:32
Speaker 2: in terms of a little bit of the impact of
0:36
Speaker 2: loneliness and longevity, but it was very very brief, and
0:39
Speaker 2: I have been wanting to find somebody to do a
0:43
Speaker 2: deep dive on it because I think it's a massive
0:46
Speaker 2: problem and I think it's something that's getting bigger, and
0:50
Speaker 2: that's the topic of loneliness.
0:53
Speaker 3: And I think you're very well qualified to talk about this.
0:56
Speaker 2: Given that number one year clinical psychologist you work at
1:01
Speaker 2: the University of Sydney, but you're also the CEO of
1:04
Speaker 2: Ending Loneliness Together. And are you still the director of
1:08
Speaker 2: the Social Health and Well Being Aboratory.
1:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, a group at at the University of Sydney.
1:13
Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, cool, So tell us maybe let's start there
1:18
Speaker 2: about that Social health and well being love and you
1:23
Speaker 2: know why you decided to get involved in that as
1:26
Speaker 2: a clinical psychologist. What was it that you saw or
1:30
Speaker 2: attracted you into this space in the first place?
1:33
Speaker 3: And then what do you guys do You're not social
1:35
Speaker 3: health and well being space, you know.
1:36
Speaker 1: Paul, I think that's a good start, because I think,
1:39
Speaker 1: you know, like many people who start off a career
1:43
Speaker 1: in one area sometimes find themselves, you know, with a
1:45
Speaker 1: foot and another And this is basically what happened to me.
1:48
Speaker 1: I was a clinical psychologist probably now for good twenty
1:52
Speaker 1: years now, so it's kind of been some time and
1:54
Speaker 1: when I was training and also kind of the earliest
1:57
Speaker 1: of being a psychologist. What I've found what's happening on
2:01
Speaker 1: the ground as a kind of practitioner on the ground
2:03
Speaker 1: was that social care really was not prioritized. It's really
2:07
Speaker 1: almost seen as an afterthought. It's almost seen as, oh,
2:10
Speaker 1: we've kind of fixed all the physical and mental health stuff, right,
2:15
Speaker 1: let's discharge this person, and if that person's lucky, they
2:18
Speaker 1: might get connected into more social activities and groups if
2:22
Speaker 1: they're lucky, and sometimes if they're willing. So it's almost
2:25
Speaker 1: like an afterthought. And increasingly we're starting to realize in
2:30
Speaker 1: the scientific, you know, part of the field, that loneliness
2:34
Speaker 1: so the subjective feeling of the stress that comes up
2:36
Speaker 1: for you when you feel your relationships do not meet
2:38
Speaker 1: your current social needs. It's a very subjective feeling, so
2:41
Speaker 1: it's not something necessarily a clinician myself can detect unless
2:46
Speaker 1: I ask, So it's something that is very internal and
2:51
Speaker 1: often very silent. We really just in signs starting to
2:54
Speaker 1: realize it's not just being physically alone that's not helpful,
2:57
Speaker 1: because that in itself is huge grammifications for mortality and health,
3:03
Speaker 1: but also just feeling like you're alone, not just physically
3:07
Speaker 1: physically alone, that on top of that has huge ramifications.
3:12
Speaker 1: But really we're not really addressing loan oness very well
3:16
Speaker 1: in our health systems. And until now, you know, clinical
3:19
Speaker 1: psychologists are not being trained around what nonliness is, and
3:23
Speaker 1: not just clinical psychologists but generally or health practitioners. We're
3:27
Speaker 1: just not being trained in this area. And it's traditionally
3:30
Speaker 1: seen as a soft issue. It's traditionally seen as should
3:33
Speaker 1: be right. You know, we'll be fine, we get rid
3:36
Speaker 1: of this mental health issue, so we'll get rid of that,
3:38
Speaker 1: we fix those physical health issues, and then they'll not
3:41
Speaker 1: be lonely. But we're also realizing now that if we are.
3:45
Speaker 1: People are more connected. If they're feeling like they have
3:49
Speaker 1: that meaningful social connections, they're more likely to survive, They're
3:52
Speaker 1: less likely to have mobidity of other problems, They're more
3:58
Speaker 1: likely to recover quicker. So, you know, we just starting
4:02
Speaker 1: to challenge that thinking that social health is not important,
4:06
Speaker 1: that we can just suit better than rug and it
4:08
Speaker 1: will just be fine as soon as we kind of
4:11
Speaker 1: address those problems.
4:13
Speaker 2: I think part of that is that we don't really
4:15
Speaker 2: have a health care system. We have a sick curse system.
4:18
Speaker 2: You know, you look at the spending on government spending
4:22
Speaker 2: on health, I think something like ninety eight and a
4:24
Speaker 2: half percent is on tertiary treatment, and we're.
4:29
Speaker 3: Not very proactive.
4:31
Speaker 2: How much of it is because of that, and how
4:35
Speaker 2: much of it is that the whole social health has
4:40
Speaker 2: been under research, and then how much of it is
4:44
Speaker 2: the fact that loneliness is actually subjective and it's not
4:49
Speaker 2: really a condition so.
4:51
Speaker 1: To space, Yes, yes, very good questions. I don't know
4:54
Speaker 1: if I know the answer to it. I think I
4:56
Speaker 1: will speak more broadly around that is that you're right.
4:59
Speaker 1: I think you know, loneliness has traditionally seen as that
5:03
Speaker 1: person's problem. It is your problem. You fix it. It's
5:06
Speaker 1: your responsibility. We're starting to realize now that first of all,
5:11
Speaker 1: while it's not a pathological problem, if we ignore it
5:14
Speaker 1: and we neglect it and we don't actually address it,
5:17
Speaker 1: it becomes bad for our health. It stops us from
5:19
Speaker 1: getting better. You know, That's where the problem is, because
5:22
Speaker 1: we ignore it and we sweep better on the rug
5:24
Speaker 1: and pretend it's not there. And in fact, last year
5:26
Speaker 1: when we did launch the Stay of the Nation Report,
5:29
Speaker 1: people who did say that they feel lonely, we're just
5:33
Speaker 1: too embarrass or ashamed to talk about it, and they
5:35
Speaker 1: actually actively conceal it. So like at least half of
5:38
Speaker 1: the people were saying it, they actually conceal it. They
5:41
Speaker 1: don't tell you, they actively try to hide it. And
5:44
Speaker 1: this is a problem because I think the word loneliness
5:46
Speaker 1: right now still has this very negative connotation.
5:50
Speaker 3: But what we.
5:51
Speaker 1: Really are trying to change is that we need to
5:54
Speaker 1: let people know it is just a very normal signal
5:56
Speaker 1: for you to kind of do something different about your
5:58
Speaker 1: connections that you're not really getting at the moment, the
6:02
Speaker 1: connections that you need that you really would like, and
6:06
Speaker 1: that it's not pathological. But when we ignore it, that
6:09
Speaker 1: becomes a problem, and so we really need to start
6:12
Speaker 1: that language around that.
6:13
Speaker 2: And do people in your experience, I don't know if
6:16
Speaker 2: you've asked them why they conceal it.
6:20
Speaker 3: Is it because of sheer or stigma or.
6:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, it's very much.
6:25
Speaker 3: I mean.
6:25
Speaker 1: The study also looked at misconceptions about what loneliness is,
6:29
Speaker 1: and people were holding a lot of misconceptions around that,
6:32
Speaker 1: thinking that this is something that if they knew more
6:35
Speaker 1: people then they would just be less lonely. Perhaps even
6:38
Speaker 1: loneliness only affects all the people, that's it. You know,
6:41
Speaker 1: people who are lonely are not worthy of others, you know.
6:44
Speaker 1: So you're holding all these misconceptions that have been probably
6:48
Speaker 1: cemented over the years with social media, all kind of
6:52
Speaker 1: movies that kind of depict what loneliness is, and you're
6:56
Speaker 1: getting a lot of misconceptions of what it is, what
6:59
Speaker 1: it's not, and how do we actually talk about it
7:01
Speaker 1: and how do we deal with it. We now know
7:04
Speaker 1: this is not an issue that is soft. It's an
7:08
Speaker 1: issue that is now considered health problem and really the
7:10
Speaker 1: next global health priority beyond COVID and the World Health
7:15
Speaker 1: Organization just recently launched their commission as the kind of
7:18
Speaker 1: three year high level commission on this issue. You know,
7:22
Speaker 1: they're basically saying, we need to reposition this issue because
7:25
Speaker 1: it's not just social isolation that's bad. Loneliness and feeling
7:28
Speaker 1: like you don't have those meaningful connections is just as
7:31
Speaker 1: bad for you as as all the other things that
7:34
Speaker 1: we know are bad for you.
7:36
Speaker 3: And so let's get into defining loneliness. Then.
7:40
Speaker 2: Is there an agreed upon scientific definition of loneliness there?
7:46
Speaker 1: Yes, I would refer to the Global Initiative on Loanings
7:49
Speaker 1: Connection Definitions, which is really the working definition that we're
7:53
Speaker 1: using at the moment, and it is really around a
7:56
Speaker 1: subjective feeling of distress. But you desire particular relationships but
8:02
Speaker 1: you don't have them. Be it quality and sometimes with
8:06
Speaker 1: some groups around quantity, And I say quantity for some
8:09
Speaker 1: groups because young people, for example, desire more. They don't
8:13
Speaker 1: necessarily desire higher quality relationships at this stage, just still
8:18
Speaker 1: desiring more relationships and not really understanding that quality is
8:22
Speaker 1: probably easier to focus on instead of quantity. And social
8:26
Speaker 1: isolation is really around the frequency of contact that you
8:30
Speaker 1: have with people. You know, for example, we've met today
8:33
Speaker 1: and we're less.
8:34
Speaker 4: Socially isolated because we have met today and we have
8:37
Speaker 4: more social interactions because we're chatting, we're talking.
8:40
Speaker 1: It's something around the number of roles that you might
8:43
Speaker 1: have in the community, whether you spoke to someone that day,
8:47
Speaker 1: the number of connections you have. We again, we do
8:50
Speaker 1: know that if you socially isolated, we traditionally already know
8:55
Speaker 1: that you're more likely to say, experience a range of
8:59
Speaker 1: different different kinds of health problems as well. And sometimes,
9:03
Speaker 1: you know, the word social connection is being kind of
9:05
Speaker 1: tossed around it, and what social connection is is really
9:07
Speaker 1: an umbrella term that talks about less loneliness and less
9:11
Speaker 1: social isolation. So it's basically covering both ends, the quantity
9:15
Speaker 1: and the quality aspects.
9:17
Speaker 2: Okay, so that makes sense. Just a little detail into
9:21
Speaker 2: the young people feeling like they want to have more
9:26
Speaker 2: social connections and not necessarily about the quality.
9:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, has that changed over time.
9:32
Speaker 2: I'm just wondering whether the advent of social media and
9:36
Speaker 2: having lots and lots of friends has a kind of
9:40
Speaker 2: an impact on people thinking that they need to have
9:44
Speaker 2: more and more the young people.
9:46
Speaker 1: I think we need to do a lot of work
9:48
Speaker 1: here actually, poor you know, I think that I've run
9:51
Speaker 1: a lot of programs focusing on reducing loneliness in young people,
9:56
Speaker 1: and they will often come to me and it's where
9:59
Speaker 1: their headspace is. They are prioritizing more, they are not
10:02
Speaker 1: necessarily prioritizing high quality, and so I really have to
10:06
Speaker 1: get them to focus on You don't need to make
10:09
Speaker 1: a new friend, but I want you to focus on
10:11
Speaker 1: the quality of relationships that you already hold. And sometimes
10:15
Speaker 1: it's easier for young people, especially if they have kind
10:18
Speaker 1: of co occurring mental your health and they find it
10:22
Speaker 1: quite overwhelming to make a new friend. And that's fine.
10:25
Speaker 1: You know, this is about you know, changing stanges and
10:28
Speaker 1: the acquaintances and you know, getting to know an acquaintance
10:30
Speaker 1: and potentially changing them to a friend. We don't need
10:33
Speaker 1: best friends. We just need to have more meaningful conversations
10:37
Speaker 1: about more higher quality relationships. Sometimes it's about focusing on
10:42
Speaker 1: the current relationship, like a primary care giver kind of relationship,
10:46
Speaker 1: a grandparent, a sister, cousin. Focus on that, you know.
10:50
Speaker 1: I think people often kind of put a lot of
10:52
Speaker 1: expectations on themselves and to say, oh, I need to
10:54
Speaker 1: change everything. You don't need to change everything. You just
10:57
Speaker 1: need to focus on one thing. And one thing that
10:59
Speaker 1: you can do so you feel successful, you feel confident,
11:03
Speaker 1: and then we build you know, it's something that we
11:06
Speaker 1: make sure that you have those realistic expectations.
11:09
Speaker 2: I was just going to say I would like to
11:11
Speaker 2: come back to that a little bit later on whenever
11:14
Speaker 2: we talk about the use of today and the role
11:18
Speaker 2: of social media in all of this. But I just
11:21
Speaker 2: wanted to talk about the incidence of loneliness, like how
11:26
Speaker 2: long have you been tracking it or other people been
11:29
Speaker 2: tracking it? So what do we know? What is the
11:31
Speaker 2: data telling us about change over time, either in Australia
11:36
Speaker 2: or globally, and then also about different age groups and
11:41
Speaker 2: the prevalence in different age groups. Take that in any order.
11:46
Speaker 1: One of the issues that we have with loneliness is
11:49
Speaker 1: the measure measurement of loneliness has been very varied across
11:53
Speaker 1: the years. In fact, people do a really good job
11:57
Speaker 1: of measuring social isolation because, as I mentioned to you,
11:59
Speaker 1: something a bit more observable, you know, and loneliness is
12:02
Speaker 1: a little bit more difficult because you have to ask
12:04
Speaker 1: that person. And then with the stigma that comes along
12:06
Speaker 1: with that, people under report loneliness.
12:08
Speaker 3: On top of.
12:10
Speaker 1: That and the varying data sets that I've kind of
12:13
Speaker 1: looked at over across the world, and the ones currently
12:17
Speaker 1: right now are saying they're fairly stable, that it's always
12:20
Speaker 1: been there. It's just probably we're talking a lot more
12:23
Speaker 1: about it right now. Oh yeah, there's more awareness that
12:26
Speaker 1: we should be talking about this because this is just
12:28
Speaker 1: as important social isolation. There might be emerging post COVID.
12:33
Speaker 1: I think there might be different data that might come up,
12:36
Speaker 1: But I'm not entirely sure about the stability of loneliness
12:39
Speaker 1: post COVID. I think it's it's a little difficult to
12:43
Speaker 1: say because we do have to track them over a
12:45
Speaker 1: long period of time.
12:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was going to say, it's like
12:49
Speaker 2: when you're doing large Gill surveys.
12:50
Speaker 3: They're not done every month.
12:52
Speaker 1: No, no, they're not, and we have.
12:54
Speaker 3: To weird until we get a big set of down.
12:56
Speaker 1: Yeah. And in fact, we still can't agree how loneliness
12:58
Speaker 1: is properly measured right now, because there are measures that
13:02
Speaker 1: relate to some people across the ages differently. I know,
13:06
Speaker 1: for example, when I was working with adolescents, you know,
13:09
Speaker 1: they didn't understand the word companionship when I asked them,
13:12
Speaker 1: do you do you feel like you like companionship and
13:14
Speaker 1: they say, I have no idea what that word is.
13:16
Speaker 1: So we're using a scale that's not really student to them.
13:19
Speaker 1: They're going to just under report loneliness. Same thing with
13:22
Speaker 1: you know, some of the scales that we're using, you know,
13:25
Speaker 1: the interpretation of someone who's older versus someone's younger might
13:28
Speaker 1: be completely different. So we really need a standardized consensus
13:32
Speaker 1: definition as well as measurement, and that's what the World
13:35
Speaker 1: Health Organization is trying to do, is to kind of
13:38
Speaker 1: get this Global Social Connection Index to make sure that
13:41
Speaker 1: we're measuring the same thing. This is all great as well,
13:45
Speaker 1: but you know, there's also some cultures that don't have
13:48
Speaker 1: the word loneliness in their vocabulary.
13:50
Speaker 5: So you know, it's again it's one of those things
13:54
Speaker 5: that you know, it's important to measure, but there are
13:56
Speaker 5: cultures that were used to word solitude a proxy for loneliness.
14:01
Speaker 1: But you know that's not the same thing because that's
14:03
Speaker 1: very much more being physically alone. Yes, so yeah, there's
14:08
Speaker 1: a cross cultural element that we also have to consider.
14:11
Speaker 1: We're doing these sorts of big index and measurements.
14:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that just adds in a layer of complexity.
14:17
Speaker 2: I think it's it's it's kind of akin to measuring happiness, right,
14:21
Speaker 2: because there's lots of different definitions of happiness or whether
14:26
Speaker 2: you're talking about happiness, where you're talking about human flourishing,
14:30
Speaker 2: whether you're talking about subjective well being, and there's different
14:33
Speaker 2: skills for these sorts of things. You're right, it's hard
14:37
Speaker 2: to get real data on it. But I mean, and
14:40
Speaker 2: if we if we talk about happiness, I very recently
14:44
Speaker 2: did a podcast with doctor Tim Sharp from the Happiness
14:47
Speaker 2: Institute and we were talking exactly about this, and he
14:51
Speaker 2: was talking about, well, flourishing is a better definition.
14:55
Speaker 3: Than just happiness.
14:56
Speaker 2: But looking into the flourishing research, there is a bucket
15:01
Speaker 2: load of stuff in there about social stuff about social connectedness,
15:06
Speaker 2: social integration, social growth. It's kind of well recognized that
15:11
Speaker 2: it has a big impact on overall human flourishing. But
15:15
Speaker 2: in terms of you look at those happiness are subjective
15:18
Speaker 2: well being inverted classic inverted U shape that we tend
15:22
Speaker 2: to see and that's where people tend to be happier
15:27
Speaker 2: in their late teens.
15:28
Speaker 3: That's kind of the peak.
15:30
Speaker 2: And then it drops off and there's a nid deer
15:33
Speaker 2: in the pin people's forties and then they pick up
15:36
Speaker 2: again afterwards. Do we see something similar in terms of
15:42
Speaker 2: loneliness or is it not that straightforward?
15:46
Speaker 1: We see in some data sets a U curve distribution,
15:50
Speaker 1: so you have high loneliness at both ends of the
15:54
Speaker 1: age groups. So increasingly I'm seeing little bumps or blips
15:58
Speaker 1: in the middle ages as well, around the forty five
16:01
Speaker 1: to fifty four years, which I think is quite interesting.
16:05
Speaker 1: I don't really we don't really know the reason because
16:07
Speaker 1: you know, that age group is really under research and
16:09
Speaker 1: we don't really expect much happening in that age group,
16:13
Speaker 1: and we're seeing a bit of a blip, especially in Australia,
16:16
Speaker 1: the forty five to fifty four age group. So but
16:19
Speaker 1: it's well known across the world.
16:22
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what what And then it was one perspective,
16:26
Speaker 2: big contribute to there will be kids and kids sport
16:31
Speaker 2: and every minute that you have.
16:33
Speaker 3: Spur is running around dropping off kids.
16:36
Speaker 1: All you have no time social health, yeah, you.
16:40
Speaker 2: Have no time, no time for yourself. And then older parents,
16:43
Speaker 2: you know, we're we're kind of known because I'm in
16:46
Speaker 2: that age group. We're known as the Sandwich generation, you know,
16:49
Speaker 2: where you've got young kids in life are very busy,
16:51
Speaker 2: and then you've got older parents who are starting to
16:56
Speaker 2: be riddled with disease or dying, right, so you have
16:59
Speaker 2: kind of resource that has an impact.
17:01
Speaker 1: That's right.
17:02
Speaker 3: That is absolutely.
17:04
Speaker 1: That's my hypothesized factors as well. And when I kind
17:07
Speaker 1: of look at those blits and it could be also
17:09
Speaker 1: a but it's a change in career. We don't know
17:11
Speaker 1: what's happening as well on top of that, but it is.
17:14
Speaker 1: It is having you know, teenagers potentially and having aging
17:19
Speaker 1: parents and having to juggle. It's a difficult time to
17:23
Speaker 1: you might have more resources, but you don't really in
17:26
Speaker 1: terms of time and other things that they're kind.
17:28
Speaker 3: Of getting the way. But yeah, self.
17:30
Speaker 1: Cares at the ultimate low probably.
17:33
Speaker 2: I remember reading something around loneliness that particularly in divorces,
17:39
Speaker 2: that we see much more loneliness in meals who have
17:43
Speaker 2: become divorced, yes, And the thinking around that was that
17:49
Speaker 2: a lot of the friendship groups of couples tend to
17:53
Speaker 2: be the wife's friends. And you know, that's a kind
17:57
Speaker 2: of a symptom from older times when the I would
18:00
Speaker 2: be working more and you know, the mom would have
18:03
Speaker 2: mother's group and all of that stuff, and then the
18:05
Speaker 2: school kids and stuff like that, and then when they're divorced,
18:08
Speaker 2: the wife ends up with more friends left than the
18:12
Speaker 2: male does, particularly if it's a nasty divorce.
18:14
Speaker 3: And have you seen that near research or is that just.
18:18
Speaker 1: A blad We haven't specifically looked at divorced men, but
18:22
Speaker 1: what we do see is people who are single, divorced
18:25
Speaker 1: or widowed us significantly more lonely. And it also tells
18:30
Speaker 1: us where people place the importance on intimate loneliness and
18:35
Speaker 1: on intimate relationship, and if they don't have that intimate relationship,
18:39
Speaker 1: they're really very much at risks of loneliness and what
18:43
Speaker 1: you're saying, though, Paul, is very common for us to
18:47
Speaker 1: hear that men are really very much at risk and
18:51
Speaker 1: and also at risk of poor mental health when that happens,
18:54
Speaker 1: because it's a huge shock to the system. It's a
18:57
Speaker 1: huge upheaval of their life, and they really have to
19:00
Speaker 1: repair during that time, and sometimes it takes a long
19:03
Speaker 1: time to really get back on your feet either, especially
19:07
Speaker 1: if the children not living in them particularly, that's quite
19:09
Speaker 1: a difficult time for them as well. So it's really
19:13
Speaker 1: important for us to think about how we can better
19:15
Speaker 1: support men who are going through that transition. Because they're
19:17
Speaker 1: also at higher risk of suicide attempts and very significant depression.
19:23
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And so do we see if we dive into
19:27
Speaker 2: the data, do we see sex differences across the ages?
19:31
Speaker 1: Well, because loneliness is also under reported, we don't know
19:35
Speaker 1: if men are under reporting loneliness, but what we see
19:39
Speaker 1: in big data sets when we do measure them in
19:42
Speaker 1: kind of big metal analysis, there is no difference in
19:45
Speaker 1: lone in men and women, but there might potentially be
19:48
Speaker 1: a difference I think in social isolation. In the Australian
19:51
Speaker 1: data sets that we're looking at, we do see that
19:54
Speaker 1: men are more socially isolated, and you know, social isolation
19:58
Speaker 1: could then lead to more loneliness down the track. So
20:03
Speaker 1: it's really important I think, just in terms of thinking
20:06
Speaker 1: about men being at risk of that more being by
20:09
Speaker 1: themselves and not reaching out again. You know, men could
20:12
Speaker 1: be more at recent that sense because they are they
20:16
Speaker 1: are after all, more socially isolated.
20:18
Speaker 2: And is there any indicators about why that would be,
20:23
Speaker 2: not that men are more generally on the whole, Why
20:27
Speaker 2: we're more socially isolated than women? Is it environmental? Is
20:31
Speaker 2: it the fact that men are as good as making friends?
20:34
Speaker 2: Is it businesses for what is it.
20:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you might not find the same trends in
20:39
Speaker 1: other samples, just to flag as well. In this particular study,
20:43
Speaker 1: we did not follow up, but that was I think
20:47
Speaker 1: it's interesting that, you know, if they're not reporting more loneliness,
20:50
Speaker 1: are they under reporting loneliness because there's no difference when
20:53
Speaker 1: we look at loneliness, but we are more likely to
20:56
Speaker 1: hear that there's a difference in terms of the amount
20:59
Speaker 1: of social contact that they have with other people. Could
21:02
Speaker 1: be again a gender difference in the way we relate
21:04
Speaker 1: to people. We're not really sure. We haven't looked at
21:08
Speaker 1: whether that particular sample, for example, you know, are more
21:11
Speaker 1: likely to you know, be saying financial distress because we
21:15
Speaker 1: you know, that's also another element that kind of is
21:18
Speaker 1: very important and critical to understanding loneliness and social isolation.
21:23
Speaker 2: M yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that. It's a
21:26
Speaker 2: it's a complex thing. And then let's talk about COVID.
21:30
Speaker 2: You've already said you haven't really seen anything because you
21:34
Speaker 2: haven't been studying anything long enough yet since COVID and
21:37
Speaker 2: being able to look at pre and post I'm just
21:39
Speaker 2: going to ask you to guess here.
21:42
Speaker 3: You know, you're you're pretty close to all of this.
21:45
Speaker 3: What's your gut feel.
21:47
Speaker 2: You're not putting your professional reputation on the line, it's
21:50
Speaker 2: just a gut feel, you know.
21:52
Speaker 1: I'm not going to deny that. I think more people
21:55
Speaker 1: that report higher levels of loneliness during COVID, especially if
21:58
Speaker 1: you're in Melbourne, you really have the social distance in
22:01
Speaker 1: a very very rigid way, which is something that I
22:05
Speaker 1: try not to to think about. Has a bit of trauma,
22:08
Speaker 1: I think for everyone. And I think what we saw
22:12
Speaker 1: was blips of high levels of loneliness, but as things
22:17
Speaker 1: a kind of have eased back and kind of we've
22:20
Speaker 1: kind of gone back to kind of some level of normalcy.
22:22
Speaker 1: I think that people have this baseline that they just
22:26
Speaker 1: kind of reset and kind of go to where they
22:29
Speaker 1: were before. So it's almost like a slightly more you know,
22:34
Speaker 1: we see shots in these sorts of experiences when we
22:37
Speaker 1: have an external event and then we all kind of
22:40
Speaker 1: slightly do a reset. I think that's kind of we
22:42
Speaker 1: see similar trends in happiness. I think as well, you
22:45
Speaker 1: know that we kind of kind of go back to
22:48
Speaker 1: our baseline. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, And I do have to
22:51
Speaker 1: say though that you know, there are a lot of
22:55
Speaker 1: external factors. This is not always about the person's internal baseline,
23:00
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of external factors that can keep
23:03
Speaker 1: someone high in loneliness or feel persistently lonely. So once
23:09
Speaker 1: they become lonely, they stay lonely, and they are things
23:13
Speaker 1: that they often can't control. So in inside, the amount
23:17
Speaker 1: of resources they have, like financial resources are huge, is
23:20
Speaker 1: a huge factor. The way the amount of money they
23:24
Speaker 1: have to be able to interact with people or to
23:26
Speaker 1: form meaningful relationships. The less money you have, the more
23:30
Speaker 1: likely you are going to be lonely. In large data
23:34
Speaker 1: sets that we see across the world, things like your
23:36
Speaker 1: socioeconomic status, employment levels, all those kind of big macro factors.
23:42
Speaker 1: You know, if you have a chronic disease, you know
23:44
Speaker 1: you're more likely to also be lonely because you're probably
23:48
Speaker 1: spending a lot of time managing your disease. You don't
23:50
Speaker 1: have the luxury of you know, being able to.
23:54
Speaker 2: And it's yeah, and I think it's probably inhibiting your
23:57
Speaker 2: social activities, right, if you've got significant growing disease, can
24:02
Speaker 2: I can I can see how all of those things
24:04
Speaker 2: would play into it.
24:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, and mental health of course as well.
24:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, absolutely, and then it becomes it's
24:13
Speaker 2: kind of almost like a self fulfilling prophecy. I would
24:17
Speaker 2: imagine with mental health, whether it's social anxiety or depression,
24:21
Speaker 2: that then you know, I don't feel like actually going
24:25
Speaker 2: out and making friends, and that exacerbates the situation.
24:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is very common within with people with
24:33
Speaker 1: mental ill health. But what we call the cognition of
24:36
Speaker 1: loneliness even in people without mental ill health is people
24:41
Speaker 1: who lonely tend to, without realizing, unconsciously survey the environment
24:47
Speaker 1: in a much more threatening way. So I experienced my
24:50
Speaker 1: environment in a kind of more heightened state, you know,
24:53
Speaker 1: it's kind of much more hyper vigilant state. This is
24:56
Speaker 1: really based on a lot of social science and social
24:59
Speaker 1: imaging studies where they kind of scan their brains.
25:01
Speaker 3: Are people alone, Michelle? Do they have in large to
25:03
Speaker 3: make the list?
25:05
Speaker 1: So I can't remember for the book from the back
25:08
Speaker 1: of mind with the studies that they're they're doing, but
25:12
Speaker 1: I think what they what they're really determining when they
25:14
Speaker 1: look at the imaging studies is that they're just much
25:18
Speaker 1: more hyper vigilance. So it's possibly that and when they're
25:21
Speaker 1: scanning what they're doing is they want. So they're saying
25:25
Speaker 1: I want to connect, So they're actually going unconsciously they're
25:28
Speaker 1: saying I want to but their brain is acting in
25:32
Speaker 1: a completely different way. And so what happens is that
25:34
Speaker 1: they actually do kind of much more avoided behaviors. So
25:37
Speaker 1: they're not looking at because you know it's threatening material
25:40
Speaker 1: not you don't want to face it. You're you're basically
25:42
Speaker 1: trying to avoid it. So you're not looking at people
25:45
Speaker 1: and interacting. You're less likely to say yes to things,
25:48
Speaker 1: You're less cooperative because you're really trying to protect yourself.
25:51
Speaker 1: You spend a lot of time unconsciously trying to protect
25:55
Speaker 1: yourself from being rejected basically, And of course you know
26:01
Speaker 1: if I if you and I have a conversation and
26:03
Speaker 1: you know I'm acting that way, you're thinking what's going
26:06
Speaker 1: on with Michelle? Like why she why she's so closed off?
26:09
Speaker 1: Oh maybe she just needs space. Maybe I would just
26:12
Speaker 1: want ask her to have a check. Then you know
26:15
Speaker 1: she's I'm going to be annoying her. And so when
26:17
Speaker 1: you do that, then it just reinforces everything again, it
26:21
Speaker 1: just reinforces all. You know, Paul doesn't have time for me.
26:24
Speaker 1: I'm no good He just you know, maybe I don't
26:27
Speaker 1: want to be a burdened him, so I wouldn't ask you.
26:29
Speaker 1: It just goes round and round and round, you know.
26:31
Speaker 1: And so a lot of the work as well as
26:34
Speaker 1: is that when your lonliness is triggered, how do we
26:37
Speaker 1: kind of get out of this vicious cycle.
26:40
Speaker 2: I think that that is a huge component to it.
26:44
Speaker 2: Having read a lot of the research on imaging studies
26:48
Speaker 2: of people who are chronically stressed, whether it's from workplace
26:52
Speaker 2: or other stressors, we do see an annoledge to migdalah.
26:56
Speaker 3: We see hyper vigilance to threat, right.
26:59
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what you're describing, and a negativity bias.
27:03
Speaker 2: And I think this is really important for our listeners
27:06
Speaker 2: to understand, is that with that stress, whether that stress
27:10
Speaker 2: has been brought on by workplace stress or the stress
27:12
Speaker 2: of loneliness, that there does develop this hypervigilance that is
27:17
Speaker 2: a protective mechanism. It's an inbuilt protective mechanism to stress
27:23
Speaker 2: and threat that makes our brains become automatically more negative.
27:28
Speaker 3: That's right.
27:28
Speaker 2: Whenever we're looking around it and as you say, wanting
27:32
Speaker 2: to then protect. And then I know from from looking
27:36
Speaker 2: at those studies that when somebody has a brain that
27:39
Speaker 2: has been chronically stressed, when they see fiaces, you know,
27:42
Speaker 2: the classic facial recognition, they see much more anger and
27:47
Speaker 2: much more saddness than people.
27:49
Speaker 1: Even if it's neutral, even if it's a neutral.
27:51
Speaker 3: Face, even if it's neutral, right, they will.
27:53
Speaker 1: Perceive it as a negative face. So you're absolutely right.
27:57
Speaker 1: I think I think it's it's worthwhile noting this is
28:00
Speaker 1: not consciously done by the person who feels lonely. I
28:03
Speaker 1: think often they don't recognize you can't. You don't know
28:05
Speaker 1: your brain's going, you know, in the hypervision state. But
28:08
Speaker 1: we're doing this really in the effort to protect ourselves simply,
28:12
Speaker 1: you know, we're not really trying to make our own
28:14
Speaker 1: lives difficult, because nobody really wants to feel lonely. But
28:18
Speaker 1: we just get into this mode. And so how do
28:21
Speaker 1: we get out of this mode? How do we start
28:23
Speaker 1: increasing our awareness that this is what we're doing. And
28:27
Speaker 1: most of the treatments so far and the ones that
28:30
Speaker 1: have been evaluated, have always been kind of looking at
28:33
Speaker 1: kind of more cognitive behavior there being kind of mode,
28:36
Speaker 1: and the problem with those ones is that the is
28:39
Speaker 1: always putting it back on the person who's lonely. But
28:42
Speaker 1: I think that if we want the holistic solution, we
28:46
Speaker 1: really need to think of solutions across different things, not
28:50
Speaker 1: just the person who's who's lonely, but also the people
28:54
Speaker 1: who are trying to help our organizations in which we work,
28:58
Speaker 1: in our policies that affect where we live, work and play. Like,
29:02
Speaker 1: you know, the interventions and solutions are threaded across different
29:06
Speaker 1: kinds of platforms, not just the individual themselves.
29:09
Speaker 3: Yeah.
29:09
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and but let's come back to that, to that,
29:12
Speaker 2: because I think it is worthwhile exploring a little bit more.
29:15
Speaker 2: But it's just it is a very non scientific term, right,
29:19
Speaker 2: But when when someone is to pressed or anxious or
29:24
Speaker 2: feeling lonely and they're in a social circumstance and that
29:28
Speaker 2: hypervigilance that you talked about in a negativity bias, they
29:32
Speaker 2: just give off a vibe that is not very welcoming.
29:37
Speaker 2: And I've had this conversation with my kids where they've
29:40
Speaker 2: talked about a certain individual just being rude, or we've
29:44
Speaker 2: thought that that certain friends of our kids are rude,
29:48
Speaker 2: and then we actually realize they're just shy, right, And
29:52
Speaker 2: now a lot of shyness is social anxiety, right, That
29:56
Speaker 2: whole thing that when you're shy or you have negative
29:59
Speaker 2: body langugeuage, people are less likely to go and interact
30:03
Speaker 2: with you, right, So it becomes this self fulfilling prophecy.
30:06
Speaker 2: Whereas you look at someone who's happy and outgoing, I
30:10
Speaker 2: like to just talk about it, and it's not scientific,
30:12
Speaker 2: but it's their their energy and the vibe that they're
30:15
Speaker 2: giving off is much more attractive to others than somebody
30:19
Speaker 2: who's feeling lonely or depressed or sad that they're just
30:22
Speaker 2: not giving off the right vibes that are welcoming for
30:26
Speaker 2: other people.
30:26
Speaker 1: And Paul, you're even pointing out some micro things that
30:30
Speaker 1: they don't know they're doing. You know, I gaze is
30:33
Speaker 1: so important, but when you have social anxiety or when
30:35
Speaker 1: you are lonely, your I gaze is poorer, and so
30:39
Speaker 1: you're really sending signals to people you know, don't interact
30:43
Speaker 1: with me, because you know you're already in that protective mode. Yeah,
30:48
Speaker 1: and it's so minor, but it makes a difference because
30:52
Speaker 1: people really take your cues.
30:54
Speaker 3: So absolutely, I think this is huge.
30:57
Speaker 2: In fact, you just reminded me, Michelle, I was doing
30:59
Speaker 2: some work with a business recently. It's a very large business,
31:04
Speaker 2: and most of the people, just because of the nature
31:07
Speaker 2: of the work, tend to be introverts. And I was
31:11
Speaker 2: having a conversation with the director of one of those things,
31:15
Speaker 2: who's not an introvert at all, and they come from
31:17
Speaker 2: a completely different sphere of work, and they said to me,
31:22
Speaker 2: they said that when they joined, they noticed how many
31:24
Speaker 2: introverts there was. And somebody said to them, you know
31:27
Speaker 2: you're talking to an extrovert in this business if they
31:31
Speaker 2: look at your shoes when you're talking to them and
31:33
Speaker 2: not their shoes.
31:36
Speaker 1: Wat.
31:37
Speaker 2: But it's that whole thing that when people are introverted
31:42
Speaker 2: slash shy slash the press slash, you know, that social
31:47
Speaker 2: isolation that much less. I gez and looking down. It's
31:53
Speaker 2: just sending out signals to the other person, whether right
31:56
Speaker 2: or wrong. But the signals incoming to the other person
31:59
Speaker 2: is don't interact with you.
32:00
Speaker 3: I'm not interested. I don't want to interact with you.
32:03
Speaker 1: Yes. And on top of that, I think that often
32:06
Speaker 1: when the person who's lonely does want to reach out,
32:08
Speaker 1: the other person just doesn't know how to respond. They
32:11
Speaker 1: don't know how to make it safe, and sometimes they
32:14
Speaker 1: take it personally like what do you mean by your
32:16
Speaker 1: lonely we're friends, What does it say about our relationship?
32:19
Speaker 1: They take it personally. It's not about that. It's not
32:22
Speaker 1: about that, you know, and loneliness of social anxiety are
32:25
Speaker 1: what we call bad partners in crime. You know. We
32:28
Speaker 1: do know from large data sets is that if you're lonely,
32:32
Speaker 1: you're more likely to be socially anxious. But if you're
32:35
Speaker 1: socially anxious in the earlier time, you're more likely to
32:38
Speaker 1: be lonely six months down the line.
32:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, and good luck getting out of loneliness if you
32:43
Speaker 2: have social life anxiety, right, unless you have really strong
32:48
Speaker 2: support groups around you, I would imagine, and you know.
32:51
Speaker 1: People don't realize this, but social anxiety is one of
32:54
Speaker 1: the earliest onsets of mental health difficulties that anybody would have,
33:00
Speaker 1: but the latest time to seek treatment so only on.
33:03
Speaker 1: So I'm talking about six seven years old, where kids
33:06
Speaker 1: start to go to primary school and they start having
33:08
Speaker 1: social anxiety. And what you will see I thinks at
33:11
Speaker 1: school school refusal, separation anxiety. You see displayed out that
33:16
Speaker 1: way because cognitively they haven't quite pieced that together. But
33:20
Speaker 1: there was average time to get treatment for social anxiety
33:23
Speaker 1: is when you are actually going to university.
33:26
Speaker 2: Oh wow, so they have they have up to a
33:29
Speaker 2: decade where they're having this condition that is not being
33:34
Speaker 2: managed dealt with help.
33:35
Speaker 1: Well, you know, what they have done is many people
33:37
Speaker 1: social anxiety, which by the way, all of us have
33:39
Speaker 1: social anxieties. Just we're talking about the clinical levels of
33:42
Speaker 1: social anxiety. We know how to live our lives in
33:46
Speaker 1: a way that we avoid those socially anxious situations. And
33:50
Speaker 1: I've actually seen adults in my clinic who have avoided
33:55
Speaker 1: giving talks, avoided any sort of presentations, you know, to
33:59
Speaker 1: they they come and see me because they have to
34:01
Speaker 1: do a work presentation. They can't get out of it,
34:04
Speaker 1: you know. And some of these people have lived their
34:07
Speaker 1: lives in such a way that have avoided every possible
34:10
Speaker 1: social situation which puts them on the spotlight. They know
34:14
Speaker 1: how to do it. They got away of it, but
34:16
Speaker 1: at some point they just can't get away of it,
34:18
Speaker 1: and that's when they come to the clinics to see me.
34:21
Speaker 1: So it's just interesting to know that a lot of
34:24
Speaker 1: people were able to kind of navigate and build their
34:26
Speaker 1: lives in such a way that's safe for them for
34:28
Speaker 1: a very long time.
34:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, very interesting.
34:31
Speaker 2: Let's talk about cognitive biases in psycho pathology, because you
34:36
Speaker 2: just mentioned some of the cognitive stuff and I know
34:38
Speaker 2: you have studied these cognitive biases. Talk about, first of all,
34:43
Speaker 2: what do you mean by cognitive biases in psycho pathology?
34:47
Speaker 2: That really drew my eye, and then we can dig
34:50
Speaker 2: into it a little bit.
34:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I put my clinical psychologists had on an
34:55
Speaker 1: traditional kind of cognitive being with therapy. What we're really
34:58
Speaker 1: saying is basically our adaptive cognitions of how we see ourselves, the.
35:04
Speaker 3: World, others.
35:06
Speaker 1: And it's really classified under about ten to twelve kind
35:09
Speaker 1: of different kind of thinking errors that we have, just
35:12
Speaker 1: to name a few, you know, black and white thinking.
35:14
Speaker 1: There's no gray at all. It's like it's either I'm
35:16
Speaker 1: a success or a failure. There's absolutely nothing in between,
35:20
Speaker 1: you know, all catastrophizing, you know, just because he said
35:23
Speaker 1: this about me, it must be really bad, you know,
35:26
Speaker 1: and so all filtered thinking. You know, there's one more,
35:29
Speaker 1: but filtered thinking is that we always see things only
35:32
Speaker 1: through the negative lens, and we're only picking up all
35:35
Speaker 1: the negative stuff. And the issues with cognitive biases or
35:39
Speaker 1: thinking errors as I like to call them, to kind
35:41
Speaker 1: of make it more colloquial, is that they really make
35:44
Speaker 1: us feel negative, and then we act in ways that
35:47
Speaker 1: respond to those. Basically, we're trying to find information to
35:50
Speaker 1: fit that thinking bias, and they stem from beliefs about
35:54
Speaker 1: ourselves or sometimes some people might call them schemers. You
35:57
Speaker 1: know that we need to hold truth. So, for example,
36:00
Speaker 1: if I have a belief system that I am a
36:02
Speaker 1: failure for whatever reason, I believe that I'm always going
36:05
Speaker 1: to be a failure. I'm going to fail at something,
36:07
Speaker 1: all my thinking errors are going to be very consistent
36:11
Speaker 1: with I am a failure, which is, oh, I did
36:14
Speaker 1: this right, but I don't know if I really did
36:16
Speaker 1: this right. Maybe it's a bit shit and someone's going
36:18
Speaker 1: to pick up that error, so that would be a
36:20
Speaker 1: thinking error.
36:21
Speaker 3: That's right.
36:21
Speaker 1: It's my belief that I am a failure, you know, so,
36:24
Speaker 1: and I feel bad, you know, and then I will
36:26
Speaker 1: always kind of unless I challenge myself, I will always
36:30
Speaker 1: just go round and around. And if I don't address
36:32
Speaker 1: that belief system, it's always just going to podcut its
36:35
Speaker 1: ugly head and say hey here I am so.
36:38
Speaker 4: As psychologists, what we're really trying to do is to
36:41
Speaker 4: correct their belief systems because you know, again a blieve
36:45
Speaker 4: system or someone who's lonely might be I'm not worthy
36:47
Speaker 4: of friendships, you.
36:49
Speaker 1: Know, and all their thinking errors are just similar to that.
36:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think Daniel Goldman's work was this whole
36:56
Speaker 2: idea that self talk drives yourself image, which has your performance,
37:01
Speaker 2: which then affects yourself talk. So with with your example
37:04
Speaker 2: of that, and I often talk about this is that
37:06
Speaker 2: people thinking oh, I'm not good enough. That affects their
37:09
Speaker 2: performance and then sorry, that affects their self worth, right,
37:14
Speaker 2: and then that self worth affects their performance, and then
37:18
Speaker 2: their bringin goes say told you we're ship, and it
37:21
Speaker 2: becomes a self fulfilling Were always try.
37:23
Speaker 1: To find information to our belief We will always do
37:27
Speaker 1: that because if we if we find information that contradicts
37:30
Speaker 1: our beliefs, it feels uncomfortable, it's weird, It's like, oh,
37:34
Speaker 1: this doesn't fit right. And an example is if if
37:37
Speaker 1: I am a fani and someone praises me, I'll be like,
37:39
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? No, it did a look
37:41
Speaker 1: good job. No, it's horrible. What are you talking about?
37:44
Speaker 1: You know, you just straight away you push it.
37:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, that person's that just that person's just trying to
37:49
Speaker 2: be nice to me and they're you know, it's just
37:51
Speaker 2: it's just a fruit.
37:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
37:55
Speaker 2: You know, we get we get into the three pays
37:57
Speaker 2: as well here, don't we the permanence previous of? And
38:00
Speaker 2: what's the other one? Permanent's previous of? Anyway? What I
38:05
Speaker 2: think of the other one?
38:06
Speaker 3: Do you know what?
38:07
Speaker 2: As you were talking about those cognitive biases, it reminds
38:09
Speaker 2: me of a brilliant quote from Amate Gotswami, who is
38:13
Speaker 2: an astrophysicist and philosopher, and he said that we do
38:18
Speaker 2: not view reality directly.
38:21
Speaker 3: We view reality through the mirror of memory.
38:26
Speaker 2: And it's that mirror of memory and the memories that
38:29
Speaker 2: create these cognitive biases. And we're actually viewing reality through
38:34
Speaker 2: this filter that's largely influenced by our past and these
38:38
Speaker 2: belief systems.
38:39
Speaker 3: Right, And I.
38:40
Speaker 2: Think you very eloquently put out how that can then
38:43
Speaker 2: just impact people and keep them trapped in certain situations.
38:46
Speaker 1: And it's very similar to negative memories like trauma, you know,
38:50
Speaker 1: And sometimes we wonder, what if you're only just go
38:53
Speaker 1: and meet people and you'll be fine and trivialize it,
38:56
Speaker 1: but actually maybe someone's got trauma, you know, and the
38:59
Speaker 1: ben experience of people. We have bad memories of people
39:02
Speaker 1: that expectation, like negative expectations or what might happen. It's
39:06
Speaker 1: not that easy to go out and make a friend.
39:09
Speaker 1: It's you know, you're trivializing it for them because this
39:11
Speaker 1: person comes with layers or complexity that you probably don't
39:15
Speaker 1: know anything about. So I think it oftenks people who
39:20
Speaker 1: feel lonely when people say, oh, you're lonely, just do act.
39:24
Speaker 1: It's not that easy for that person just.
39:25
Speaker 3: To do that.
39:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like when someone's deeply depressed, just just go.
39:30
Speaker 3: And do this and get on with it. So no,
39:34
Speaker 3: I am Michell.
39:35
Speaker 2: Look, I'm loving this conversation, but I'm aware of the
39:38
Speaker 2: time constraints because you've got to be somewhere. So let's
39:42
Speaker 2: talk about the sort of stuff that we can do
39:45
Speaker 2: so in your coalition to end loneliness, which I highly
39:49
Speaker 2: recommend that people go and look up.
39:50
Speaker 3: We'll put all the links to at the end. But
39:53
Speaker 3: what are some of the.
39:54
Speaker 2: Things that people can do to either survive loneliness, such
39:58
Speaker 2: a remedy loneliness? What are things that people can do themselves?
40:02
Speaker 2: And what about how can other people be a more
40:06
Speaker 2: aware of the cues and what can we do to
40:09
Speaker 2: help people who are struggling a little bit.
40:12
Speaker 1: So, starting from August fifth, what we will be releasing
40:16
Speaker 1: is really a variety of different videos around people talking
40:21
Speaker 1: about their experience. The reason why we're kind of really
40:25
Speaker 1: showcasing the live experience is because we want people to
40:28
Speaker 1: know that loneliness doesn't have a face, it doesn't look
40:31
Speaker 1: like any particular person. That we all should feel lonely
40:35
Speaker 1: at some point and we all manage it differently, and
40:38
Speaker 1: to be able to hear and understand and normalize the
40:43
Speaker 1: experience can sometimes be quite liberating for people who feel lonely.
40:47
Speaker 1: And also if you're not feeling lonely, it doesn't matter,
40:50
Speaker 1: because it's also about learning how you can help, but
40:54
Speaker 1: also understanding it. At some point, you will have to
40:57
Speaker 1: manage your own loneliness, you know, because that can have
41:00
Speaker 1: and do us at any given time. And I think
41:02
Speaker 1: it's important for us to educate ourselves first, because when
41:04
Speaker 1: we actually understand what it is and what it's not,
41:07
Speaker 1: we're more likely to take action and effective action. We're
41:10
Speaker 1: more likely to understand what works for us and what
41:14
Speaker 1: doesn't work for us. You know, to have those moments
41:16
Speaker 1: of trying to work out you know, what kind of
41:19
Speaker 1: resources you have, what are your preferences at the stage
41:22
Speaker 1: of your life? You know, what can you do? What
41:24
Speaker 1: do you do you not want to do? Kind of
41:26
Speaker 1: taking those steps and reflecting so that you can actually
41:29
Speaker 1: help yourself and manage it so that it doesn't become
41:33
Speaker 1: a problem. And we need to think about the people
41:35
Speaker 1: around us. You know, we don't We're not un social
41:38
Speaker 1: species as I call it. You know, we are social
41:40
Speaker 1: species that we will function with people around us and
41:43
Speaker 1: people we care about. There will be people that feel lonely,
41:46
Speaker 1: that the people that we care but will feel lonely
41:49
Speaker 1: at some point. How do we have those conversations that
41:53
Speaker 1: it is respectful, that is helpful to the person who
41:57
Speaker 1: needs the help helpful ye, because often people who want
42:02
Speaker 1: to help and very well intentioned might trivialize loneliness in
42:08
Speaker 1: a way that makes people retreat more, makes people feel
42:12
Speaker 1: more helpless. So we can start learning how to have
42:15
Speaker 1: that conversation, you know, just people listening to this podcast
42:18
Speaker 1: at the moment, how can we start having a healthier
42:21
Speaker 1: language around the connection. How do we encourage people to
42:26
Speaker 1: connect as opposed to withdraw because remember, we are really
42:29
Speaker 1: working against a system that's silent in our brains. This
42:33
Speaker 1: is not as easy as it sounds. So how do
42:36
Speaker 1: we make the environment safer for people to talk about
42:39
Speaker 1: their loneliness in a way that they don't feel judged
42:41
Speaker 1: or they don't feel like they're being demean or that
42:45
Speaker 1: they're they're less worthy of you.
42:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is definitely great advice. I mean,
42:50
Speaker 2: what springs to my mind when you were talking there
42:53
Speaker 2: was abute and I often tell a story in when
42:56
Speaker 2: I'm doing corporate talks. Was the Hanoi Hilton prison camp, Vietnam,
43:00
Speaker 2: which was completely brutal, and some of those guys spent
43:05
Speaker 2: three to four years in solitary confinement.
43:09
Speaker 3: But they had this they had.
43:11
Speaker 2: This thing called the tap code where they could tap
43:15
Speaker 2: out the letters of the alphabet on the wall and
43:18
Speaker 2: the pipes to communicate with each other. And I interviewed
43:23
Speaker 2: the guy Lee Ellis, who spent five and a half
43:25
Speaker 2: years in that prison camp, and he said it was
43:27
Speaker 2: the tap code was the glue that held these guys
43:31
Speaker 2: together that just you know, when you're I think their
43:35
Speaker 2: leader said, when your brother is taken out of his
43:37
Speaker 2: sale to be tortured. When he comes back, you get
43:40
Speaker 2: on the wall, you tap to him, You tell him
43:42
Speaker 2: that you love him, you tell him that you're here
43:44
Speaker 2: for him.
43:45
Speaker 3: And Lee told me that it.
43:46
Speaker 2: Was just, you know, somebody tapping to them that actually
43:51
Speaker 2: helped them to get through their darkest stars.
43:54
Speaker 3: And it's very powerful.
43:55
Speaker 2: And I always say to people, you know, if you've
43:57
Speaker 2: got your own shit sorted, look out into your a
44:00
Speaker 2: little corner of the universe and think to yourself, who
44:02
Speaker 2: could use the tap coat?
44:03
Speaker 3: Right?
44:04
Speaker 2: But also equally, if you're struggling, is trying to find
44:10
Speaker 2: the courage to reach out to someone.
44:12
Speaker 1: That's right.
44:13
Speaker 2: And I think a really important thing is that people
44:15
Speaker 2: who are lonely or depressed, or of some sort of
44:18
Speaker 2: mental health issue, they often don't reach out because they
44:21
Speaker 2: think they're going to be a burden. And what we
44:24
Speaker 2: now know is that when someone helps somebody else, that
44:29
Speaker 2: it activates fingered chemicals in their brain. Right, And so
44:32
Speaker 2: certain people, you're not being a burden. You're just giving
44:35
Speaker 2: somebody an opportunity to improve their mental health. That's exactly
44:39
Speaker 2: connecting and helping you, right.
44:41
Speaker 1: Yes, Yeah, I also say don't deprive someone else for
44:44
Speaker 1: help because they want to help, you know, so it's
44:47
Speaker 1: actually an opportunity for the person that's the helper as well. Yeah,
44:51
Speaker 1: but it doesn't Again, when we're talking about all of
44:54
Speaker 1: these things, it's about, you know, knowing that you can
44:57
Speaker 1: be on either end of the spectrum at any given time.
45:00
Speaker 1: I could need to help at some point and I
45:03
Speaker 1: will be to help at some point, So those rules
45:06
Speaker 1: change all the time.
45:07
Speaker 3: Yeah.
45:07
Speaker 2: And look, there's a beautiful word that comes from Japanese
45:10
Speaker 2: psychology and they talk a lot about anxiety and social anxiety,
45:14
Speaker 2: and it's called arugamama and it basically means with things
45:19
Speaker 2: as they are, what needs to be done, and it's
45:23
Speaker 2: really it's a very aligned with act which I'm sure
45:26
Speaker 2: you're familiar with, accept as commitment therapy, and it's basically
45:29
Speaker 2: taking action that is aligned with your values that's going
45:32
Speaker 2: to take you towards the person that you actually want
45:35
Speaker 2: to be. And you know, this stuff isn't easy. But
45:38
Speaker 2: when people think deeply about their values and how sitting
45:42
Speaker 2: with the discomfort is actually going to help them live
45:45
Speaker 2: the life they want to be, I think it's helpful
45:48
Speaker 2: in finding the courage to take those steps. Absolutely, So, Michelle,
45:53
Speaker 2: where can people go to to find out more. So,
45:56
Speaker 2: I know you've got a couple of websites, but where's
45:58
Speaker 2: the best place to point people to where they can
46:00
Speaker 2: get resources?
46:01
Speaker 1: So Loadingess Awareness Week dot com dot au is one,
46:05
Speaker 1: but also ending Loness Together dot com dot au is
46:08
Speaker 1: another as well. So being able to find lots of
46:12
Speaker 1: resources and support. We have videos and tip sheets and
46:15
Speaker 1: resources for people who are interested in kind of much more,
46:20
Speaker 1: you know, the scientific stuff or the kind of policy recommendations.
46:24
Speaker 1: We also have lots of things like white papers as
46:27
Speaker 1: well that they can kind of, you know, understand what's
46:30
Speaker 1: the latest, uh in terms of how people are thinking
46:33
Speaker 1: about this issue, both from a scientific point of view
46:36
Speaker 1: but also a policy point of view. So lots of
46:39
Speaker 1: different resources, and you know, if people are keen to
46:43
Speaker 1: share their stories around loneliness, they can definitely submit a
46:46
Speaker 1: story about this as well through a portal and that
46:49
Speaker 1: those sorts of things are available from the fifth of August.
46:52
Speaker 2: Okay, brilliant, And so I'd encourage all the listeners to
46:57
Speaker 2: go and jump on to it to look at and
46:59
Speaker 2: loneliness and then Loneliness Awareness Week was it dot com
47:03
Speaker 2: dot com?
47:03
Speaker 1: Do you so loneliness a Aweness Week is Awenness weeak
47:08
Speaker 1: dot com dot au and ending loneliness dot com dot you.
47:11
Speaker 2: Okay, awesome and so yeah, this podcast is coming hot
47:15
Speaker 2: on the heels of a happiness podcast, So just real
47:19
Speaker 2: encouragement from people they will have heard about the importance
47:23
Speaker 2: of social connection in terms of that happiness thing. So
47:27
Speaker 2: I think, you know, getting back to the Hanoi Hilton analogy.
47:31
Speaker 3: No matter what side of the wall you're on.
47:34
Speaker 2: Whether you're struggling or whether you're you're okay, it is
47:38
Speaker 2: about going and getting on the wall and looking at
47:41
Speaker 2: those resources and just seeing what.
47:42
Speaker 3: You can do.
47:43
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me pause a lovely conversation to
47:46
Speaker 1: kind of yeah talk about loneliness and making sure that
47:48
Speaker 1: we set the conversation straight.
47:51
Speaker 3: Awesome. Thanks Michelle, and keep doing your awesome work.
47:54
Speaker 1: Thank you.