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#84 Process Over Pressure: A Mental Fitness Playbook for Student Athletes · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

College Is Fine Podcast (00:48) Okay, here we go. All right, hi listeners. We're really excited to kind of go back to a topic that we have not talked about in a really long time. But it's definitely something that... I see a lot in my clinical practice and it's the college experience of a student athlete is unique And we were lucky to be introduced to two experts in the field of sports. And I would love to introduce themselves and I think we're going to have a great conversation today. So. Terri Roady, can you introduce yourself? Carrie Potoff (01:20) Sure. Thanks so much for having us. My name is Carrie Potoff. I'm a licensed clinical social worker. I work out of Sasko River Center in Darien Rhodie (01:29) And my name is Rodie Lorenz. Thank you also for having us. We're excited to be here. And I'm a mental performance coach. my background is in education and fitness primarily. And I work with college level athletes, some high school as well. But my focus is really on college level athletes, helping them with their mental game and all of the stresses and pressures that go along with College Is Fine Podcast (01:30) Hi, Carrie. Rhodie (01:57) performing at a high level in college. Sarah (01:59) I'm so happy to have you here and I love the fact that you called it a mental game because in a way I don't think there's a person out there who would say or an athlete or a coach out there who would say that there's not a mental aspect to the game that someone is playing. So when you say mental game, can you tell us? College Is Fine Podcast (02:04) Yeah. Sarah (02:18) What you mean by that? Rhodie (02:19) Sure, think at any point athletes are playing two games. They're playing the sport that they engage in and then they have a whole lot of things going on in their heads that are going to either help their performance or hinder their performance. And so while they go to practice and get guidance from their athletic coaches about different skills and drills and exercises they're going to be doing and their whole weightlifting programs. They're often not given as much guidance in the mental performance aspect. similar to building our physical strength, that mental strength is a really important part of our game, our ability to maintain focus under pressure and composure and emotional regulation. And so that's something that also needs to be practiced too. So In terms of the training, I compare it very much to the physical aspect and having come from a fitness background where I was training athletes and non athletes on a regular basis, we can see the investment that's required for the physical gains. So it's very similar that it's definitely a practice and a journey and it's something that we do have the ability to improve and control. College Is Fine Podcast (03:24) Mm-hmm. Rhodie (03:32) So I think that's really liberating too, because I think some people approach it and they're like, you either have a good mindset or a bad mindset or you are strong in this way or not. But it's something that is something that we can all train. College Is Fine Podcast (03:42) I often give this analogy that I'll talk to athletes, even non athletes. I'll give an example. I used to say, dare cheater. And I was like, you got to like really up. I'm going to go with it. They're like, I know what dare cheaters, but like, I'm like, OK, Aaron Judge or. where I'll talk about like a batter being up a bat and I'll ask people, do you think he's thinking about striking out? And I would say like 99 % of my patients are like, yeah, yeah, he's definitely thinking about striking out, right? And I think that just shows you how we're so biased to the negative, right? Just like automatically people just assume that even the most like skilled athletes are in a negative mindset when they're performing at a high level. So, Maybe you can tell us a little bit about what you see with athletes in terms of these negative self-talk patterns that they kind of are commonly getting stuck in. Carrie Potoff (04:32) Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, just going back to what you were saying, you know how we have over 30,000 thoughts a day, if not more. And a lot of those are going to be negative. And what we, at least, you know, when I work with, with athletes, a lot of times it's their own negative kind of beliefs about themselves that they're bringing in. And then they have the negative beliefs that either is put upon them by their coaches or their parents or their teammates or just kind of society and what is expected of them. these kids put so many hours, so many months, so many years into one sport. And to get to a point where they're successful and they get recruited, and then if they get an injury or if they don't play well, it can be catastrophic. And there's just so much shame around it. and guilt that they spent so much time, so much money of their parents. And, you know, they feel like they're kind of wasting, quote, unquote, this opportunity that was given to them. College Is Fine Podcast (05:33) Mm-hmm. Sarah (05:34) Is there a way for people to take that tendency, right? To kind of be self critical and flip it on its head and have that ability to think about your performance and strengthen it, use it for good, not evil, I guess is another way to say it. Rhodie (05:51) I think, yes, that's much of the work that we do. And at its most basic level, when we're talking about that self-talk and if the batter's up at, you know, ready to bat and whether they're thinking about striking out or not, ⁓ it's really trying to quiet that negative voice that's there to, you know, ultimately try to protect us. And when it's not useful, then we need to edit that and rewrite that script. And so I think one of the first and most basic things is just what is the story we're telling ourselves. And one phrase that I heard that really resonated with me is that the mind doesn't believe what is true, it believes what is repeated. And so if we start to just observe our thoughts more and think, okay, well, I, this story that I'm telling myself is I'm not good enough, I'm gonna strike out, I... College Is Fine Podcast (06:29) Mm-hmm. Carrie Potoff (06:31) you Rhodie (06:35) you know, can't perform well if I didn't get a great night's sleep or any of these things that all of a sudden start to become our own belief systems. And in a way they do become these self-fulfilling prophecies. And so if we can observe and then reframe and rewrite that, we certainly do not have to believe everything that we think. And so it really is this discipline of what would be a more useful thought for me. Carrie Potoff (06:39) WROP WROP College Is Fine Podcast (06:56) Mm-hmm. Rhodie (06:58) in this situation. And when we get into high pressure and high stakes situations, just like we plan for, you know, if you're a pitcher and you, you know, can't throw or you're not throwing strikes, then it's like, okay, what do I need to do to reevaluate this and focus on your form and your windup? And we don't really plan in advance for like, okay, when I'm feeling that pressure, what is my mind going to be thinking? So what's that mental fitness part of it that I'm bringing to the game? College Is Fine Podcast (07:21) Right. Rhodie (07:23) And so a lot of the conversations that I have with athletes are like, okay, when things go wrong, when you have a setback, when this wasn't something that you expected or it's not going well, how do you reframe that and bring that back? And so much of that is self-talk. It's like being your own coach and cheerleader. College Is Fine Podcast (07:40) OK, Rody, I like that how do you interrupt the story? And then it seems like it's a two step process, increase your awareness to what's being said in your mind. And then making a choice around what is effective in terms of your thinking process. And it seems for a lot of us reframing or coming up with a more healthy thinking process. is going to improve your physical game, right? ⁓ Rhodie (08:05) No, absolutely. And when I was first giving a presentation on this, I was like, we can't have the negative thoughts and we don't want negative. But I tried to back off and just say, ask actually what's useful and what's not useful. Because I think there's a small majority, a small minority, but most of us, the negative self-talk is not a motivating voice to have in our head. But perhaps for some people, like, come on, get your stuff together and kind of a little bit of like a tough love. Sarah (08:30) You can say shit, get your shit together. Rhodie (08:32) Okay, get your shit together. You know, that ⁓ some of that tough love voice could be motivating, you know, like get off your ass and what do you do? You know, and so I'm not, you know, it's a personal thing, but it's like, okay, if that helps push you forward and that energizes you to perform better, like use what's useful, but have that discernment to know this is helping me or this is actually completely draining me. College Is Fine Podcast (08:42) Yeah, yeah. Sarah (08:56) Right. Is it upping your energy or is it making you feel, you know, shameful and heavy and frustrated? So, I think that one of the things too, that we hear a lot from, I don't know, it's just a phrase you hear over and over again, focus on the process, not the outcome. and I always am telling people like, all right, if I'm watching that happen, what does it mean? It could mean a thousand different things depending on who you're talking to. So how would you say, that people can put that into a practical first step to take when they say, now I'm gonna focus on the process, how do you start that? Carrie Potoff (09:28) Yeah, we talk a lot about this with athletes because they're so kind of tunnel vision about what's in front of them instead of what, you know, staying in the present and what they can control now. So a lot of times with the, the clients that I treat, it's really just about kind of practicing that mindfulness and being in the present and focusing on, If the athlete is focusing on, let's say they want to, you know, have triple doubles or they want to score five goals or they want to, you know, be, you know, have a sub whatever like time that they're running or whatever, we can focus on that, but then bringing them back to what do you have to do? What are the steps that you need to do to get to that pinnacle that you want to achieve? So a lot of times I'll tell kids, I want you to dream and I want you to have everything that you want in whatever sport you choose. But in order to get there, you have to back it way back a little bit and focus on Do you need to work on your core strength? Do need to do some more? like strength training, do you need to get into the trackman bay and focus on your swing? like what are the steps that they need to take to get to that point where they're healthy in their mind, in their body? And then that will eventually lead to the outcome. we talk a lot, CBT about thinking traps and if they have that mental filter all the time and they only focus on what's ahead then it's gonna be a lot harder to get to to get to that point. So for me it's just slowing the athlete way down and breaking it up into into little chunks to help them reach their goal. Thanks. Rhodie (11:20) Yeah, and I think another way, another tool that you know, Carrie and I both use as well, but just a really practical and simple way of addressing this issue is I'll have an athlete draw a line down a piece of paper and it's like on the left side, all of the things in as much detail and as many as you can come up with of what I can control. And then on the right side, the things I can't control. And it's just an illuminating exercise because We all are susceptible to really putting our energy into things that we can't control, but we'd like to, or we think we can. And so the beauty of this is it just helps bring our focus into the priorities of where we should be putting our attention and our focus. Because as much as we may want to score those five goals or hit that sub, you know, number for our race, what's in our control is our preparation. getting a good night's sleep, fueling ourselves, showing up that day with the attitude and energy, giving it everything we have. But our competition, the weather, and the outcome itself is actually not within our control. And when we put too much focus and energy there, it actually becomes such a distraction. And so if you can help athletes see that, then I think some of the slowing down aspects of just really College Is Fine Podcast (12:31) Mm-hmm. Rhodie (12:36) trying to be present and you practicing that, they find actually this is more helpful because I should try to let go of all the things I can't control. And that's just not our human nature, but it can be effective. Sarah (12:49) Can I ask a follow-up question? Because I think there are different types of, obviously, sports athletes, et cetera. And there's some where it feels like, I'm thinking of a tennis player, where, yes, you're part of a team, technically, if you're playing for your college. And you are yourself. Your name is up there on the list of your ranks, et cetera. It's like very much that individual sport. College Is Fine Podcast (13:15) Mm-hmm. Sarah (13:15) or at least individual recognition of talent versus someone who's on a team where the team is the one on the scoreboard, on the ranking list. Do you see a difference in that process versus outcome difference for athletes where it feels like more of that individual ranking versus a team sport? College Is Fine Podcast (13:24) Right. Sarah (13:32) And the reason I ask this is because, I think about a team sport, seems like so much more would be out of your control technically, but I'm not sure that there actually is that much of a difference. but I'm just wondering if that's something you have to navigate. College Is Fine Podcast (13:39) Right. Rhodie (13:42) Mm-hmm. Carrie Potoff (13:47) I mean, I think that, I think it's pretty much similar. You know, with the team, you don't have. there's more out of your control because you have your teammates, you have the coaches, you know, there's just like Rudy was saying, there's just so much that we can't control and there's so much uncertainty, you know, when you're part of a team, but that goes with as an individual, you know, you don't, you still don't have control over your opponent. You still don't have control if, you know, God forbid you sprain your ankle, you know, there's certain things that both team and individually. I think as an individual athlete, you know, they can be a little bit more in their silo and focus on what works for them, in terms of, you know, how much sleep do I need? what's my nutrition? what's my pregame routine? how do I center myself? All that stuff, individually. But, you know, I think what Rodi and I are trying to do is cultivate a team culture so the whole team can be in sync a little bit more. So you're doing it for yourself, but then it kind of transcends beyond that to the team. And so there's more team camaraderie, there's more unison, there's more in sync, just that togetherness. you know, if there was speaking of the Super Bowl that you were talking about earlier, there was an article, I guess, Mike Vrabel was asking his, team to give kind of something about you history. It's like the four H's like history, heartbreak and two other H's. can't remember, but it basically his whole headache. Yeah. Sarah (15:28) Headache, humor, I'm just listening to H words, I'm kidding. Rhodie (15:32) Ha Carrie Potoff (15:33) Yeah, but it really... Sarah (15:34) We'll find them, we'll put them in the show notes. Carrie Potoff (15:36) Exactly, but he but he was saying how and the players were also commenting on how that really brought the team together in terms of sharing that vulnerability, know, so you can be individual like, you know, the quarterbacks the quarterback, but to have the quarterback know a heartbreak of his wide receiver or the heartbreak of his coach, it just kind of brings that next level of unity that I think a lot of times you know, teams are missing because kids are so hyper-focused on, I gotta work on my numbers, I gotta get recruited, I have to, you know, there's just so much of like me, me, me, because there's so much at stake for that individual athlete. Rodie, what do you think versus team? Rhodie (16:21) Yeah, no, I agree. think it's a really interesting question. And I think in terms of the mental and like the mental performance training of it, it's probably pretty similar because we are focusing on the elements that we can control. And whether you're playing a team sport or more of an individual sport, we really want your best performance is going to be when you are present and able to focus despite the distractions of the pressure and the outcome. But no doubt in a team sport, there just more variables. So I think that to Carrie's point, I'll give you an example. My ⁓ youngest son is a runner at WashU and the cross country season in particular is really challenging because they have to run an 8K. And so that's giving your kind of best effort for, you know, around five miles. And it's really your ability to endure pain. because it's so uncomfortable to be pushing yourself for that duration. And I remember after nationals, he had to huddle up with all the runners and he said, you you can't perform at your highest level and endure this level of pain if it's not attached to something that's beyond yourself. And so even with individual sports, like having for him, he was like, you know, you're, you're also performing for your team or there may be something personal for you that you're attaching this performance to. because if we're only doing it for ourselves, then it's gonna be much more challenging to perform at that high level and endure what is asked of us. And I would say that that goes, that's not sport specific. So to Carrie's point about like being on a team and being aware of other people's vulnerabilities, and then I'm bringing my best so that we all rise together. And whether you're playing tennis or running, College Is Fine Podcast (17:52) Right. Rhodie (18:01) they're both individual, but you're also part of a team that has been a platform for you to get there. So, so I guess, you know, to, to go back to the question is that I think that that process and mental training is the same, but I think that seeing yourself in a larger context of the impact that you're having, you know, your performance is inspiring other people and it's like helping your team succeed. And that's, that's a really important and powerful vision for yourself too. Sarah (18:26) I love that. College Is Fine Podcast (18:27) summarize a little bit examples of process goals are things that are within your control, right? And they can kind of help you stay grounded and kind of like these high pressure moments. And I think we're gonna include in our show notes, both Carrie and Rhodie are involved with. ⁓ a group called the Saugatuck Mind and Sports Lab. And I think part of their mission is to hopefully make some cultural shifts around outcome fixation, since we know that leads to a lot of burnout and anxiety among student athletes. ⁓ Rody, you were saying something about your son and what their coach kind of said. ⁓ But I'm wondering, know, I think my experience with college athletes is by the time they get to college, they're pretty burned out athletically. ⁓ Rhodie (18:56) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (19:11) You know, they have, they get to like the finish line and they're like, my goodness, this has just started, right? And the pressure like we've talked about is just greater. So, and I think some of them lose their love of the sport a little bit because now it's a job for them. And I'm just wondering how do you help them reconnect with their original reason? You know, I always say to kids, like, Rhodie (19:14) you Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (19:33) The definition of sports, if you look it up, the word fun is actually in there in the dictionary. But I don't hear a lot in my office about fun. I hear a lot of negative. So ⁓ thoughts about that. Rhodie (19:37) Yeah. Yeah, I think that's 100 % it. think it's re-engaging in that conversation about... One of the first questions I always ask when I start working with athletes is like, what do you love about your sport? And they inevitably have a list of things that got them into the sport, the team elements, the physical challenge, the ability to overcome obstacles, whatever it is that they're coming up with, and just feeling that sense of pride that their sport has given them. ⁓ and it's a reminder for themselves just in having the conversation again. And then we talk very deliberately about how, how can we bring these back to the forefront and make these part of the daily practice? And a big part of that that emerges in the athletes that I've worked with is, is really the team and the friendship is something that they value so much. And there is the burnout, but it's, ⁓ how do I reconnect and have the fun and in some ways take some of the outcome and the pressures off of it, bring that element of joy back for them so that it's not all about the end result, which is really hard to do because everything is coming at us that that's the most important thing. And so I think redefining what success looks like for them in that sport is one way of doing it. And then really just leaning into what is it that I loved about it? College Is Fine Podcast (20:45) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rhodie (21:03) you know, the practices and just going to practice with my teammates and then having lunch after, um, and being able to connect with them. So, um, trying to bring that deliberately into more of a daily, um, you know, practice. worked with one runner who was injured and she had to, she was still going to practices and she was like, it's so disappointing because I can't participate. But she ended up. one of the things that she really loved about the sport was how people lift each other up and that they were a very supportive team. So she's like, I just show up and I'm their cheerleader and actually encouraging them and seeing them succeed. It fills me up. So then we start to focus on that rather than like how devastated she is that she's sitting out these races. So it's this nuanced reprioritization, I think. College Is Fine Podcast (21:39) Mm-hmm. Mm-mm. Right, right. Carrie Potoff (21:53) Yeah, I think it just goes back to the values and what the person values most, in terms of camaraderie, friendship, you know, teamwork, all that stuff. So just kind of refocusing on, why they're doing it. Sarah (22:05) I guess there's a couple of things that I was thinking as we were just going through all the various things. is sometimes there's what we probably strangely call on our therapeutic work. Like a come to Jesus moment when you think actually the reason I loved the game initially or the sport. is no longer there. Right. Um, and I can imagine a few things where they might have to come to a decision point about what to do. So I'd love to hear more about what happens if you realize that the athlete actually isn't really in it for the same reasons they used to. And then is there something where at a certain point there are other games being played that are no longer the sport and does that impact their level of happiness? Carrie Potoff (22:50) Yeah, it's a good question. So, Rodi and I, we... We did a workshop supervision group with Mitch Green, who's down in Philadelphia, and he introduced this concept of side game. And basically what we do is we have our client write together, we write a list of all the different things that they love about the sport, why they do this sport, what comes into their head about the sport, just everything. I want a varsity letter. I want to lose weight. I do it for my parents. I do it for the scholarship. I want to be in the NFL, like whatever comes to mind, we come up with a list. And usually it's in my experience, like the whole whiteboard in my office is full, like both sides totally full. Then we look at the list and we go down and put a plus and minus beside each thing that they thought of. And it's not that one is worse than the other and it's not one is good and one is bad. It just gives the client a little bit more of pause to think about what this means. So if they have a plus next to I want to make my mom proud, well that is great and super noble and I love that and you know all that stuff. It does kind of like Rody was saying, it does kind of take us out of the process and why ultimately are you doing it for yourself or are you doing it for your mom? And so it's really just a conversation starter. And when the client sees the board and sees all the pluses and minuses, that is a couple of sessions worth of good information. And then from there, I've had plenty of athletes that either from injury or from burnout, they decide, you know what? I'm good. You know, I didn't get recruited. I'm not going to play club. I got injured. I don't want to push my body anymore. And then that's a whole other thing of accepting, what the next stage is. it just, side game is just another tool that you can use just to get more clarity on if the love is still there or if maybe they need to pivot. it. And it is a way to kind of reinvigorate and remind them, my gosh, there's so many amazing things here. Like, I love it. I love my team. My coach is awesome. The assistant coach, the trainer, you know, like I love hearing the crowd just, I love what it does to my confidence. I love my body feels so good. You know, like all that is great. And then it just kind of reintroduces that passion that maybe they've lost somewhere along the way. College Is Fine Podcast (25:29) I think when you were just talking, Carrie, we talk a lot about dialectics in our podcast and it really does sound like side games can really help athletes survive and maybe improve their happiness. Like you said, like reminding of those positives and then also kind of illuminating some of the costs that maybe they're not paying attention to as well. Carrie Potoff (25:49) Yeah, absolutely. College Is Fine Podcast (25:50) All right. Well, we're really grateful for you guys being on. I'm really excited to share with our listeners some of the work that you guys are doing that I mentioned. I will put in the show notes at your mind and sports lab. Yeah. Thank you guys for being on. Sarah (26:03) Yeah, this has been great. Carrie Potoff (26:04) Thank you so much.