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Could You Be Living With a Narcissist? The Signs Many Women Miss · The Midlife Rebel Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: There are many people, for example, who come uh to work with me.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um and sometimes they had such unbelievable trauma in childhood that when I hear about it, it's like the hair is standing up on my spine because it was just horrific.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't become narcissists.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: And there are people who were some kind of you know criticism going on in childhood, and maybe mom not present enough, it was not that severe, and they become narcissists.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Midlife Rebel Podcast.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's time to rewrite the midlife story for women who refuse to be put in a box.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because maybe midlife isn't a crisis, maybe it's an awakening.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the chameleons game.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um so should we where should we where should we start?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to give us a brief sort of overview of what the book is about and then I'll ask.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: I've got lots of questions to to go over.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, yes, so I didn't uh plan to write this book, it was just a result of life events.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I lived in the US for for a long time, and and I got into this relationship with a man, and we spent together over 10 years, and um and the relationship was a complete roller coaster, ups and down, ups and down, and his emotional instability was just something um something else.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was hoping for all this all those years that sometime it will maybe change or improve and it will be still good as it was at the beginning of the relationship because the first year was really really nice, and then something it flipped into completely different different script.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I was you know hoping and waiting and uh trying to do something about it, but nothing changed.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And after uh almost 12 years, it finally ended.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it was very at the at the end, it was really turbulent, if I can say it emotionally, uh, but it ended.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so then uh he left to his um previous place where he lived in in the US.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I stayed uh where where we were at the before, and um still was doing sessions online.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And uh but by that time I knew that this guy had a personality disorder, and it was uh from what I started reading and and studying really deeply from professional literature, uh it was it was just obvious that he had the covert narcissistic uh personality disorder.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: So and and the coincidence was coincidence kind of uh was that at that time when he finally left, um I started getting clients, uh women, who were exactly in the same kind of situation with with in relationships or after relationships with with person like that.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: So so it was kind of like wow, I'm in it, I'm studying it, and the and the clients come like out of blue, you know, I didn't advertise anything, right?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: So so uh because I was like in it, uh I was able to connect to those women uh really nicely.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: And one said, Yeah, you should write an article about it, and some others said, Oh, yeah, you should write an article about it.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I started writing some articles about it.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh in time, there were so many articles that I that I said, man, this it's it could be a book.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So so I sat and and just wrote the whole book, and that's how it that's how it happened.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you're no stranger to writing a book because you've written a book before, right?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So this is something something pretty different, but yes, different.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote one book before.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's still selling, and still people are are um benefiting from it, so so I'm happy.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: And this one, this one is about um my own relationship, but I use it, it's not like memoir.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: I just use the events from my life with this with this man uh as an illustration, as an example of what the relationship with person like this is, the characteristics, you know, how it happened in simple things in in everyday life.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like a good illustration um for people to understand and not just um you know read the theory, what it is.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and of course, I'm writing about my my life too, because those are real events.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's probably got a cathar a bit cathartic as well to sort of get it out on paper.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes, and yes, because when I when I had to think it through exactly and and put it into actually you know sentences, uh then it even more clarified.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd love to hear more about your experience and we'll talk more about your book.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I've noticed online in more recent times that narcissism is a word that comes up a lot, and a lot of people use it in a kind of uh uh an almost off-the-cuff, you know, oh, you know, he's a narcissist or she's a narcissist.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, it goes a bit well, a lot deeper than that, doesn't it?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just describe to us what a narcissist is?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, and I write it in the book at the beginning of Buddha Book about it also, because it's exactly what you're saying, people overusing this word, not not knowing what it actually means.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's the same thing with the words like uh we use today, like, oh what an idiot, right?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Or oh, he's a moron, right?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the and those names like idiot and moron, you know, and uh I don't know, I think it was still 19th century, or maybe two and I forgot, those were terms of a very serious mental retardation.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was a side, it was a it was a name uh for a for a disease, for I mean not a disease, um retardation, right?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's something you're born with.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so and and in time people started using it casually, and now you know I see somebody doing something stupid, and I say, Oh, what an idiot, right?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a term for a very serious this, you know, disorder in in a person.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the same is happening with the with the narcissist word, because it is a very serious personality disorder, one of the toughest ones, and I think there is no cure for it.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: As far as I know, uh psychology has no cure for it, you can only learn how to manage it, but narcissists usually don't do it because they don't think they have a problem.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so yeah, it is very serious, but there are certain uh characteristics of um of the narcissistic uh the NPD, right?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Narcissistic personality disorder, that those people are very childish.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: So and and the thing here is that I think every one of us from time to time behaves like a child, right?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes uh during the some kinds due to some circumstances, we behave like children, right?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: We display those selfish behaviors, uh every one of us.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: But so so I would say that every narcissist uh has a childish behaviors, but not every person who behaves childishly has narcissistic personality disorder.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I could say that.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes that's why when when uh when a person behaves in a kind of selfish or egoistic way, we say, oh, what a narcissist, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not it's not MPD, because for example, a person uh who has severe anxiety and has anxiety and has the anxiety uh attack in the moment and behaves can behave really hyper-vigilant and and focus on on themselves, and you could say selfish selfish, but it's not NPD, it's just due to totally something else.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or sometimes people are you know spoiled uh in childhood by their parents and they they get adult and they don't know any better, so they behave in this entitled way, but they don't have personality disorder.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's much deeper.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So so people with NPD, um it's like a it's it's like their uh it's like their system is damaged.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like damaged.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: So they can they don't have empathy, they cannot put themselves in other people's shoes.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um they um they make everything about themselves.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's impossible to to talk about them uh about something neutral, about facts, because they would twist everything the way that it's about them somehow.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um for for example, oh I was just thinking about it yesterday.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the simple a simple thing from my own life, right?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we moved into this new house in the middle of nowhere in the forest, and the there's a switch in the bathroom, a separate switch for the ventilation, right?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: So when you take a shower and there is steam, you turn on the ventilation and it takes the steam out, right?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I was not used to it completely because in Poland, where I grew up, we didn't have those things.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so it was not my habit to do it, right?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're moving to this house and there's this switch.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: He who was uh raised in the US and he used it all his life, it for him it was just an automatic thing, right?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I used to forgot, used to forget to uh to turn it on.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: So he asked me once, could you turn it on when you when you take a shower so the steam can go out?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: I said, okay, of course I will.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I kept forgetting.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: From time to time I remembered, but I kept forgetting.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: So he asked me another time and he asked me a third time, and uh and I still forgot.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it was not because I was I was mean or did it on purpose, I truly forgot.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And for for a brain usually to turn something into habit, you have to remind your brain many, many times before it becomes a habit.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So he reminded maybe three times, and I remembered something, but it was still not enough for me to do it every time when I go in the bathroom.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: So so okay, he got mad that I that I uh kept doing it, but the twist was here that oh yeah, you just disrespect me.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: You see the difference?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, he could be mad that I keep forgetting it, but then the twist it's it's all about me.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: You do it on purpose because you are mean and you do it to me, right?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the that's the narcissist.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: They they will turn everything that it's about them.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: You try to be uh you try to uh be against them, do something uh bad for them, it's all about them.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: So so and and they will do it with every single smallest thing, like the stupid switch in the bathroom, not mentioning bigger things.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I couldn't even look at the direction of uh another man on the walk because there was immediately something, you know, um some comment, yeah.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so yeah, so that's and so so the NTD is is uh um it's like a base for for existence.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just occasional behavior, it's like default behavior.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's all the time, every day, every night, uh with in every situation, it's like default operational system.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, it's not just occasional, like some other people just you know have some selfish behavior from time to time.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that everybody has that.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you occasional?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Did you see it with with your partner?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Did you see him behave that way with his friends as well?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like is it or is it more dominant more shows up more in relationship?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I did, but uh, yeah, it shows up more in a relationship.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, yes, uh in his friendships.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I noticed it after a while because at the beginning they try to present, you know, they are the best, they are the the nicest, and everything, and they are charming, and oh my gosh.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: So so uh when the person is already sucked in and they become friends, uh they uh then they start there's a flip, and the the criticism starts, and some uh yeah, some projections.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh sometimes I heard those many stories about oh he did oh yeah, he's stupid, he did that, he he did this, and he did it to me, and uh and yeah, a lot of criticism.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then if something, if something, yeah, I I noticed it there also many times.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so for example, he was friends with with a person, and suddenly this person didn't behave properly, uh, whatever it means, and suddenly there was a end of it.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: I delete his emails, I delete his phone number, I just don't want to know him anymore.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because I'm done.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm done with this person, right?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then let's say two months later, suddenly he needed something, right?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he's oh this guy could maybe hmm do it for me.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And suddenly he got his phone number and he was friends again.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so there it is.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's um oh, I've got so many questions.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm kind of like uh I might be a bit back to front.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I might sort of uh ask you this and then and then go back to to the beginning a little bit.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm really curious as to like you're a psychologist, and so you started to become aware of this as a behavioral problem, um, and witness it almost from a different perspective, even though you were in it.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: But for someone who is in a relationship um and they're not in a position like you were, where you start to understand it and see this unfolding, how might they feel being on the receiving end of that relationship?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like what the the women that you're working with at the moment, for example, what sort of what's their experience and how do they end up feeling?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, usually the um how they how they end up it's uh so they're going to the psychologist.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right, yes, so they they usually end up feeling like their self-esteem is brought down to zero.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um because usually in those dynamics is that narcissists somehow they have this type uh this type of energy that it becomes the center of the relationship and everything spins around it, good or bad.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: So so if partner is involved in a relationship uh like this, um woman or man, you know, because there are women narcissists too, and there are men who who are victims of it, so it's not about gender.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so the so the partner or wife or husband, they just try to do you know you know just like spin around this center, trying to fit, trying to please, trying to fix, trying to take responsibility for for the relationship, but the emotional feel of the relationship, uh trying to just trying to keep peace or trying to keep flow, or they did they just take everything on their own shoulders.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, um after a while, people get exhausted because it doesn't bring uh any anything.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just they just the narcissist just consumes all of it, all this it's called narcissistic supply, right?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: So they just they just in the center, everything revolves around them and they consume it, they don't turn it into anything positive or anything working, they just consume it.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's like vampire sucking and sucking and sucking and sucking until the partner is dry, right?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing left inside.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: And usually, yes, usually there's a psychological manipulation going on.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they um they could they try to convince you that you cannot survive without them, that they are needed in your life, and without them, you're nobody, you won't be able to function.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so this manipulation is uh so severe that the the system of the partner starts believing it.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: So then on one hand, uh you see something is not right, on the other hand, you're afraid to leave because you really believe you won't survive without this person, whatever it is, emotionally, financially, yeah.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so those people who just go in it and don't do anything uh on the way, um because they still hope that something will change, usually end up this way, just devastated emotionally, energetically, sometimes financially, because uh in my case was not the case because the the financial part was very healthy for some reason between us.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Everything was split in half.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we contribute the same way to everything, so there was no arguments there.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: So for some reason, thank God it was good.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, yes, so it takes uh sometimes years for people to to regain their self-confidence and trust themselves again, because the another part is the gaslighting, right?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: So so gaslighting is like they always try to uh undermine what you're saying, your opinion.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you're not you don't know what you're saying.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, that's not what I said.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, you're just imagining it.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so whatever you say, it's always no, no, no, you're wrong.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're wrong.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if you hear it, you know, day by day, year by year, uh you really start believing in uh that you're wrong about something.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: So then you have to rebuild that that you can trust your your what you feel and what you uh what you think and what you say that it's valid.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, there's there's a process of coming out of it.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure not only trusting yourself again, but being able to trust another person in relationship after having that experience would be pretty tough.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but you know, if you if you learn, if you have this experience and you know the experience very well, and then you start trusting yourself again, then the next time when you meet a person like this, you will immediately see all those red flags, and when you trust it, you will say no thank you and you walk away.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Where does it come from?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Where does narcissism come from?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is someone just born with it?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is it something to do with the experience they've had?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: There are uh psychological theories uh that say there is a severe trauma and abandonment during the childhood.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And for and I think that's that's true, but I mean, this is my opinion.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if if there's any official uh theory uh approved by psychology saying this, but that's what I'm saying, observing uh working with people as a therapist, that uh there are many people, for example, who come uh to work with me, um, and sometimes they had such unbelievable trauma in childhood that when I hear about it, it's like the hair is standing up on my spine because it was just horrific.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't become narcissists.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there are people.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Who were some kind of you know criticism going on in childhood, and maybe mom not present enough, it was not that severe, and they become narcissists.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there must be something inborn, you know, something that they in some kind of damage prenatal or generational trauma.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know exactly what it is, but there must be some predisposition that those people come to this world, and then uh trauma in childhood kind of brings it to the surface or yeah, reveals it.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I think.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that the the severe trauma in childhood alone is responsible for personality disorder.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you said that it can't be cured.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is the is that because they have a difficulty acknowledging that there's a problem in the first place?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes, I think um there's some I think there is some damage done to the the structure of I, the structure of the self-awareness.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: The damage is done in the place of awareness.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, in order for you to be self-aware and being able to acknowledge it, uh you have to have those, they call it the new uh mirror neurons.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: They can mirror um somebody else's behavior, and then you can you can apply it to yourself.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, uh, for example, um you see you see a person on the street, and the person is yelling and screaming, is angry about something.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And for and for example, you say, Whoa, what a jerk.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: But then the other part of you says, Well, but I'm I'm some sometimes I am getting angry too for no reason, right?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the bare neuron that you can identify something in you that's also outside in other people, and though in those people, this is broken, it's not working.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so yes, so for example, um that was the most difficult thing for me, I think, because for example, he uh he was um accusing me of something.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you are just uh saying this and that, and it you you know, it doesn't feel good.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um whatever it was, simple thing.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I used to say, but you just did the same thing five minutes ago to me.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, I didn't.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was not just that he was denying it, he was literally incapable of seeing that he was doing the same what I was doing to him, for example.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: There was this is the system is broken, like physiologically broken.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: So they are incapable of of uh recognizing their own behavior that it's damaging to other people, but they will see the same behavior in other people when it's done to them.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And when you confront them, you do the same thing.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've never I've never did I've never done it.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's like uh that was the most difficult thing, yeah.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because there was no communication with with person like this at all.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's only one way, always one way.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why they uh when they they don't therapy because they don't see they have problems.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's always them who have problems, everybody else is responsible for their uh well-being or whatever.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's his fault, it's his fault, it's God's fault, it's government's fault, it's my mom's fault.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, I'm I'm fine.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm not responsible for anything.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: They are incapable of taking responsibility for their own inner world.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Have you um treated any narcissists?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh actually, I I had one.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was a guy, highly powered person, if I can say that.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it was an interesting case.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um probably I'd be working with him again.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um he was aware of this.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: He says, I feel absolutely nothing.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: The only thing that I am interested in is control.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I am completely empty.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know who I am, I don't know uh what I want, I don't know what happiness is, and he was aware of this, and he was uh uh highly very very high function in judgmental system, okay?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so so he was extremely intelligent, had had many different faculties and degrees and uh from different uh areas of life.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: He knew everything, he could quote anything, but he still said, I cannot find my eye.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: He says, I'm looking at my wife, and it's like looking at at a piece of furniture.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, I hate it, I don't like it, but I would like to, but I can't.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: So he was trying to do, he meditated, he went through different therapies, and uh he came for EFT and for other other things, and uh uh there's nobody there inside, there's just empty shell.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: At least he was uh he had a very high morals, this person, so he was not malignant, he was not mean, he was not manipulating and not um not um damaging other people.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: But the fact that he couldn't feel, for example, was damaging to his wife and children.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but yeah, so he tried, but uh nothing changed.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I think he he he will be back for for more of EFT.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's like that kind of emptiness is what they they all experience?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, okay, yes, uh there's total emptiness and void and nothing, just blackness and desperate desperate feeling, yes.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's pretty hectic, isn't it?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel any compassion for your ex?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: I did for 12 years, you know.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: You did and you're tight like that was enough.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the last maybe two I didn't anymore.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that you should have, I'm just curious as to whether you did or not.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: I did, yes, I did.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: And usually uh people who get involved with narcissists are those who have a higher level of empathy because uh because you really feel how how bad it is.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if you like to help people, you really want to help, but they won't, they won't accept it to help.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it was just like another example, because those moments, those moments were like couldn't, you know, I was just stunned, didn't know what to say.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, example, um, I talked to him a lot about you know, about uh psychology and some energies because he liked those topics.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: So he heard a lot uh from me about how things are, so he was kind of absorbing in mentally.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes he said, like, yeah, that would be nice, I should do something about it.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: He never did, but there was some kind of idea I could maybe change something, but okay, never did.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember one time I I went to Poland for two or three months, and he was supposed to join me.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: I went first, and a month later he came.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so during that month when he was alone at how at home, he was doing some kind of work, and we were you know chatting and corresponding and talking.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes he was saying he was going through some really bad emotional moments he tried to work through, and so he did something, you know, because when he came to Poland, I'm looking at him at the airport and said, Wow, he's like 10 years younger and 100 pounds later, lighter.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Whoa, nice, nice.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, wow, right?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: So so I told him this, uh, so he was all happy about it.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then two days later, maybe or three, I don't remember, we were talking, and it was all nice and light.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh my gosh, where were you for all those years?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because suddenly he was like present.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Where were you for all those years?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are a normal person, you'll be happy to hear it, right?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: That after all those years and effort, finally something happened.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what he did two days later, after I said that, he focused not on the change that it's positive, he focused on the 10 years or eight years, whatever it was, that was bad.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Oh, yeah, so you saw me like this for eight or ten years, right?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: And he focused on that, not on it.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: You are climbing the mountain, and finally you achieve the peak, and you see the beautiful view and everything, and you cannot admire it.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: You just complaining about how hard it was to get there.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it just you just can't win.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can't win, so it's okay, I give up.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: But you stayed together for a long time, didn't you?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you know, at the end, when I was really tired of this relationship because I was holding it emotionally all the time to have to I really did that, trying to adjust and figure out and uh be watchful and careful what to say, what not to say, so there is peace and there is kind of stability, and and we were able to uh achieve some things uh together as a as a couple, but on the emotional level, the relationship level, uh no.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I got tired of it, so I I told him at the end, you know, I don't think I want to be this emotional rock for this relationship anymore.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: We have to do it both, or I just I just can't do it anymore.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And from that it's just a downhill, and then it ended.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think he consciously set out to find you?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: You were in an online space together, weren't you?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: In a yes, spiritual space.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and you you met through that.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: But do you think as a narcissist, not just not necessarily just this your experience, but narcissists in general, if they kind of what what did you call it when they suck it it's something that they do, suck the life force out of you.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um they're looking for a supply.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So do they are they conscious that they're doing that?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Are they kind of like, I need to find a new supply?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so they or is it all unconscious, this behavior?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, probably it is they are not aware of it, uh, because they they are incapable of uh criticism or recognizing that they're doing something wrong because they cannot take responsibility for it.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so they don't want to know, you know, what they do wrong, because they this their their system just collapses.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um they can only receive praise and admiration, but if you tell them something even tiny that it's not praise, they they are collapsing.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: So probably they don't.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe some do, like this guy that I that I used to work with, he was highly aware of of his flaws.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so there was a like a like wow.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, they just they they just have the the desperate feeling inside, they have to connect to somebody, they have to be with somebody, and because they they just fill their own emptiness with other people's attention, energy, um, emotions, they crave it.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: So when they get it, you know, that's that's what it is.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: So there are different types of there are two different types of narcissists, aren't there?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Do you do you get set up of talking about narcissists after living with no, no, no, it's all good.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: So there's two different types, a covert and an overt.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, those those are the main types because there are other uh subtypes like uh communal narcissists or spiritual narcissists, but those are subtypes, but the main is covert and overt.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the overt one is the one who is um loud and colorful, and you know, they are the best, they come in the room and they're a center of attention, and and they like to be the like the uh social butterfly, you know, they charm everybody, and everybody loves them, you know, like that, right?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: And they of course think that they are better than everybody, so uh, yeah, and everybody should serve them.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the covert is the one who is the perpetual victim.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, poor me.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, please save me.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I can't live like this.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody is against me, everything is here to catch me and destroy me.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so they get the attention this way by being a victim.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a more difficult one because um, because uh, you know, um we have this human instinct to to help when you you see somebody suffering, right?
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we immediately want to do something about it, but they don't want to be helped, they just want to suck your energy.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so another thing with the narcissist, when when he or she says that they have a problem and you try to help them, give them solution, they will sabotage it.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: They they they won't take it because they are not interested in getting help, they are interested in sucking your energy, your attention.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the covert narcissist who is a perpetual victim.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: And what would the differences be if with an overt narcissist and the way they kind of manipulate situations, is that different um to an to a covert narcissist?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like if they do they what do they do?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: The the the guy the the people who kind of go into the room center of attention, big and you know, look at me.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: How do they um operate uh in relationships compared to what you've described in your relationship?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, the covert, the victim one, uh, they manipulate through empathy, through your empathy.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: So they they don't have empathy, but they know how to manipulate empathy.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: So uh they they do it this way, kind of um not very uh uh how you say it, um it's like covert, right?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's hidden the manipulation.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, so so that's how they get the attention by by getting your empathy, by by getting your uh compassion.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and and by they just always want to be saved by somebody.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Save me, save me from myself, right?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the the overt they just uh they just manipulate by uh presenting to yourself as God almost.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: So then there's this other instinct in you, oh my gosh, yeah, you know, he's so he he's he's godlike, he deserves everything.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I will give him what he needs or she needs.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: But the end result is the same.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's always the same.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, oh, and one more distinction I made in the book.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's uh if anybody talked about it somewhere in in psychology, uh, because I just realized it when I was writing the book that the that actually the common distinction is that uh covert narcissism is more common in women and overt narcissism in men.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh because men are like, yeah, I'm here, right?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Serve me.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and women are the oh, I am the princess in the in the tower, please, king, uh please uh prince save me, right?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's like ingrained in our psyche.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I actually think that this distinction is done due to actually uh cultural and societal um uh conditions because uh back then, you know, centuries ago, the norm was in at least in our Western society, that man was the one who was providing or right, taking care of cutting wood and bringing in and moving stones and building houses and all that, and woman was the one who was taking care of everything inside the house and and um taking care of children.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now it changed because the society changed.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we can switch those roles and women can go and be successful, men can stay in the house and take care of children.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: So so I think it came from this that men are those who more those who go to the world and have to be confident, you know, to conquer the wilderness, and women are those who sit stay in a house and calm down men who come from those wars, you know, they come home and they want peace, and women just uh are more like inside, right?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: But now when we don't have to have those uh societal and cultural uh circumstances anymore, we can see that men also are covert narcissists, some of men are covert narcissists, and some women are overt narcissists, so it's not like men-women distinction.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I so then I thought it's actually tied to a temperament.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's a introvert and extrovert, yeah, and there's something you are born with, right?
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: There are people who are quiet and introverts and they enjoy their own company and they're extrovert who are social people leaders and that.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: So so people uh uh the the the NPD when happens to introverts, they become covert narcissists, and then when the NPD happens to extroverts, it becomes overt narcissists.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's it's connected to the temperament, not to the gender.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I think.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: It makes sense.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Would someone experience you've um in your book, you mentioned some different phases, and you've mentioned them.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um you've mentioned love bombing, I think, since we've been talking.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um another one that I've got um written down is devaluation, the devi devaluation phase.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Does a relationship go through this whole process?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, is it does it inevitably end at the end of a process?
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but that can go on for years and years and years, especially with cobalt narcissists when yeah, when women, women or uh men are uh trying to help and help and help and hoping that something will change, but nothing changes for years, it can go for years, yeah.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: Can you describe some of those phases that sure more than two yes?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: The the first phase is the love bombing, is when the narcissist, you know, is the charming person who tried to present himself or herself as a perfect partner who resonates with everything you feel you say you are you're about, uh you know.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like whoa, I've I met a perfect person.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like this whoa, and they do it right deliberately to uh first of all to to be liked and second to suck you in.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it can last for uh depends.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: It can last a month.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: In my case, it lasted a year, around a year.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then it suddenly flips into the devaluation phase, meaning when uh it it different things can happen.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: For example, they are bored with you, so suddenly you're not you're not the uh The supply you supplying, it's not enough.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: So suddenly they start devaluing you uh and getting from you um the the other type of attention because then when they devalue you, you try to rebuild, regain, uh go back to so you try, and that's how they feed on.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so the devaluation can last for years, and it's uh and you and in that period, you know, when you when you're when you have enough at some point, and you said you know, say, no, no, I'm I'm fed up with this, I'm done.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you try to leave, there's love bombing again happening, flowers, oh my gosh, I will change, or forgive me, please, blah blah blah blah.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they're the best for day two or month until you are sucked in again, and then the devaluation starts again.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so that's the devaluation, and then there's a discard.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, at some point, uh, when they find another supply, usually when they find another supply, some new uh prey, some new person to catch and exploit and suck dry.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's a discard, and usually discard is something sudden, meaning it's not like they come to you and say, you know what, this relationship doesn't work, maybe we should think about splitting.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, they just pack their bags and they gone.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't even sometimes know.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's just whatever.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm done here, I'm going.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's sometimes there's another phase, which is the hoovering.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's after you finally split, and so they go their merry way, and they have another person they they they they live life with, and something happened, and the new supply is not good anymore.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: They tend to come back to you after sometimes even years and say, Hey, how are you?
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what maybe we should get back together.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're not cured, you will say yes.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's yes, and women go through it.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: I heard stories after years, they they're capable of after everything they went through, the part they was hoping that that it can be real still is there.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: And when the when the prince shows up, they say yes, oh, this time we'll be much better, and it's the same cycle again.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how did you how did you feel being in this relationship for so long?
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: This like you're you talk about it very practically now, you've obviously processed a lot, but like you were in love with him.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh now when I'm thinking uh the the feelings were uh very alive and and real for me, I think only within the first year when it was really nice and good, and and we did so many uh good things and traveled and you know it was good.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then when from the perspective of time, when I think when he flipped suddenly when we moved to another place, uh he flipped and it was a totally different script.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I had mixed, I started having mixed feelings, you know.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: There were days when, especially when suddenly he was in a good mood, it was nice, but then when he was this jerk again, uh I didn't feel those good feelings.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh just going through motions, yeah.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: So the yeah, it was mixed.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my luck, what what I'm thinking comparing to some other people who go through this, um, my luck is this that I have uh this passion since I can remember since I was born to understand what's going on.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: The human behavior, it's something I eat for breakfast, uh dinner, and and supper.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: I just love it.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: So the part of me, you know, passionate about it, was constantly interested.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: What is going on here?
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's something underneath.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I was exploring at the same time what was going on.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, I use EFT.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when I met him, I've been using I at that time I was using EFT for for years.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: So every time when something happened in the relationship and I I was triggered emotionally, immediately I went to my room and did EFT.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I was not sitting with it, it was not rotting in me, I was immediately processing it.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I was processing it, I was seeing some new parts of me emerging, and I was like, wow, that's interesting.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: So at the same time, um, at the same time, uh, kind of a little bit suffering in this relationship, I was also healing myself from things I didn't know that were in me, but he was triggering those things by his behavior.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I was doing both at the same time.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Most people just go through the phase of complete exhaustion and then they try to work on themselves.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing it both, both things at the same time.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, also, I have this um inborn positive state of consciousness that uh I can't I I'm incapable of sitting long time being unhappy.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: Even if I try purpose, there's something in me that suddenly wakes up and I'm happy again.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it was helping me in a way, but not helping because I was not devastated enough to say no earlier.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because because I was rebuilding myself on the on the way all the time, so I still was happy, you know.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if I didn't do it, I probably would be exhausted much sooner.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you knew like you knew that there was something up, didn't you, from very early on, like because that that um switch flipped.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess we all get that a little bit in relationships, right?
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's not the honeymoon period anymore, and you see another side, but there's a part of us that thinks, well, this is that's how relationships are after the honeymoon period.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, that's true.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, in in a normal healthy relationship, when something happens and the honeymoon is over and there's some conflict going on happening, usually when there's an argument or uh or uh some some drama going on, then both people try to do something about it, maybe maybe improve, maybe not, maybe talk about it, maybe not go back to it again.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh both parts feel feel bad about it, and um like a normal human reaction, right?
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: With narcissists, it doesn't happen.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so there's a there's a big argument usually that they initiate because they thrive on your emotions.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't matter if there are positive or negative emotions, uh as long as you have emotions towards them, they are they are feeling their emptiness.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so so they they usually cause this argument, and after that, when they when they see like he for example, he saw that I was uh kind of down or um uh tired, he was apologizing and saying, Oh, yeah, it's my fault, blah blah blah.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it never it never um changed anything because when when you are really sorry for something and you feel so bad that you did something, you don't want to repeat it.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: But they say sorry, yes, they say sorry only to you know uh have you back in the in in their corner, if I can say that.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they they can start again the same.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: The sorry is not real, it's only because they are scared that you are uh you feel bad enough to leave them.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they don't want it because they cannot process abandonment, it will kill them.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, not literally, but inside.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so so they don't want you to leave, uh, they don't want to lose the supply.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: So they say sorry, they will apologize, they will buy you flowers or do something good for you, only to pacify you, not because they mean because they want to change and they don't want to do it again.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: So do you feel that your experience and the fact that you you said that there were parts of you that were healing um through the process, through um practicing EFT?
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that that was part of your purpose of being in this relationship?
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if I can say from the some higher perspective, uh I could say yes, because from the very down-to-earth perspective, which is uh you go into relationship because you want to be happy, then from this point of view it doesn't make sense, right?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: But if you if you look from a from a higher perspective, from a bigger perspective, yes, I I call it a boot camp, you know, relationship I call it a boot camp, because I am all about development of uh you know, inner development and developing self-awareness and understanding more and getting more harmonious with inside and with the world and with everything.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a constant process, you know.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: The self-awareness is is developing constantly until you're dead.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes, and and sometimes there are deep, deep, deep parts of us.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I think, that we don't have direct access.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so we don't know we have those parts.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we need those painful moments in life or or difficult things that will pull the self-awareness down there, and then you can explore it, what it is.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I call this relationship as a boot camp because without those triggers that he served me, I wouldn't be able to find many parts of me that were deep, and they are uh now you know they are known, they are needed, they are part of part of self-awareness, and I feel more whole because of it, but only because I did the work, I didn't get stuck in the drama.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: I used it as a as a challenge to become you know even more whole.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: How long has it been since your relationship ended?
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it ended exactly two years ago.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: Two yes, exactly two years ago, uh in April he left.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think that when we had our first conversation, you mentioned writing this book.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe you were already you were still in the relationship then.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think so, yes, I think so.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe yeah, maybe check the date.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and in terms of writing the book and um that do you feel like that your experience is also giving you a purpose in helping others?
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yes, I mean uh I can I can understand this uh this problem much better because not only because I went through it, but because I also decided to study it, you know, uh using uh uh professional literature.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yes, and writing the book, uh yes, it's all it's all one package.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I think uh people, uh women, men who go through through this type of relationship is I can understand them better and help them better because of it.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: What advice would you give someone if they're listening to this and they think that perhaps they are in a relationship with a narcissist?
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: Get out.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, the only advice that that uh will fit uh in all circumstances because sometimes you know the externals, the life circumstances people have are not that easy, like okay, I'm done closing, close the door and buy.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the people have uh families, they have children, sometimes they have uh you know, credit they took together, and they have one house, and it's so it's not that easy just to say, well, he's uh or she's a narcissist, and I'm leaving because I'm done with it.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes if you have children, what do you do?
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: You still have to be in touch with this person because we have you have children together.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing that can be always done, no matter if you stay or leave, is to reconnect with the with the deep self.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I would encourage to uh explore um those parts of inside parts that it went for this person because it's not a coincidence, there's always some part that gets attracted by this type of um emptiness, okay.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh those parts can be worked on, can be discovered, and you still can be in the relationship while working on yourself and reconnecting with with your own truth and your own self.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, of course, yeah, and you know books, workshops, therapy, whatever works for people.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I don't know.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I recommend EFT because it's free, it's free online, and you can uh you can in English there's so many different excess free exercises now that you can go and tap and do it whenever you want, and uh you know, come back to your to your own eye and decide.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh, and then that's the start because when you are reconnected with yourself, with when you feel more confident, when you trust more yourself more, uh, when you feel yourself more and you acknowledge your own needs, then it's much easier, you know, to see what's going on and and take proper uh decisions.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is the yeah.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have EFT?
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you've got a YouTube channel, haven't you?
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but it's only in Polish some way.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's not very helpful.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh unless we've got some Polish people listening, of course.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: But but I have a good news.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: I've been working on with a developer um application, and the application is called Peak Power EFT.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: Almost done.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be released probably for testing next week.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been it's been developed in development for over a year.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it will still probably need a little bit, it will need a little tweaking, but it's working already.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the first program that I did in this application is for victims of narcissists.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's called it's called After the Chameleon.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: So the book is uh the the chameleon game, and the application that the program is after the chameleon.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually focused on not on um learning what narcissism is, because you can read about it everywhere, you know, so many materials now about what it is and all the symptoms and gaslighting and blood bombing and all that.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: But the but the program is focused on reconnecting with with the yourself.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a four-week program, and it's EFT there, and the EFT EFT is being done by the application individually for your needs.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so um you actually you know tell your own story, and there are questions, uh, you answer those questions.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um and built on this, the application is doing personalized EFT for you.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's wow, that's so cool.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's really cool.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm doing the program right now because I'm testing, it's like wow.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that sounds amazing.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but we're gonna we can um put the link for that.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: We can update the link on the um guest directory whenever it's ready so so that people can access that.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and we'll include your book in there as well.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, that sounds really exciting, and it will obviously have other programs uh as you go along for different topics or yes.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the main uh the main uh part of this application is is membership, uh, and it's just doing EFT, like we call it freestyle EFT, meaning uh you you open the section, you have a problem, you say the problem, and the EFT is created.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: The EFT actually is based on six thousands of EFT recordings of EFT recordings I did with clients over the 15 years.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's taken from that database and it's creating uh new new EFTs based on it.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so so you can use EFT for anything, um anything that happens in your life, but there's a section with programs, it's a four-week program, and the four-week program, the first one is for narcissists, the second one will be probably for emotional eating because people struggle with that too.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: And there's another section with meditations.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if you like meditate, there's really cool meditations, yeah.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: Great, that's amazing.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations with that.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's brilliant.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: Tasha, thank you so much for joining me again for part three.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's really great to have you here today.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for inviting me.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's always a pleasure to talk to you, and I'm I'm happy to share all this all this exciting information about how to get out of it with the world.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_01: Hey there, Rebel.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Midlife Rebel Podcast.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a coffee by going to buy me a coffee forward slash midlife rebel podcast.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.