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Coping Mechanisms: Overrated vs. Underrated 2|02 · The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity

• Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Lost Podcast. I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra, LMHC: And I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: As licensed mental health counselors, we're here to unpack the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral. Cassandra, LMHC: Because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Join us as we name these hidden losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Daiana, LMHC: Let's dive in. I just wanna say the elephant in the room for this episode is that I had oral surgery and it's hard for me to laugh and we laugh a lot, so this is gonna be hard. Cassandra, LMHC: I'm sorry you hurt. That sucks. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, well at least I'm a human today. The past five days? Mm-mm. Not so much. Cassandra, LMHC: Definitely understand that. And bathing is a huge plus. So we all thank you for that. So nicely done. I did it again, didn't I? Daiana, LMHC: No, that's good. The the laughing. That's gonna be a hard one. If you're watching this on YouTube, I just have to try not to laugh so hard. Cassandra, LMHC: And just as something that Daiana and I were talking about before we started recording, and I need to I need to clarify something from our last episode because it's it was pointed out to me that I've had made a terrible transgression. when I was discussing the height of my daughter. I mentioned that my younger brother was six foot five. He rapidly corrected me to let me know that he is actually six foot seven. So I'd like to apologize publicly for the transgression. it won't happen again. I will make sure that I have that documented in my brain hole for the rest of forever. I always thought that I was saying Daiana, LMHC: I mean Cassandra, LMHC: six seven to exaggerate. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: Turns out I wasn't. It was the truth. He is a large man. Yes. Daiana, LMHC: That's wild. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean listen, I get the two inches because if somebody said I was five foot, I'll be like, excuse me, no, sir. I'm five two. Cassandra, LMHC: No, you're right. If someone was like, you're like what, five six? I'd like, Negative. I'm five Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: eight. Like, get that right. Daiana, LMHC: But I'm really just joking because I'm like, bro, you're re you're six seven and six like already you're way past me, whether you're two inches short or not. Cassandra, LMHC: He's a foot and a half taller than you. Like literally a foot and a half taller than you. That's just amazing. Daiana, LMHC: Yes, yes. And I think I've been around him with no heels. So I've definitely and it's funny because I think that people always mention that. I remember meeting him. I'm like, man, you're tall. And I'm like, I saw it in his face. Like, like, you know. Cassandra, LMHC: Hahaha Daiana, LMHC: He's really sweet. He didn't make a face, but I could tell, like, like he hears this a lot. It's kind of annoying. Cassandra, LMHC: One of my best friend's fathers was, I believe he was six, seven as well. And people used to ask him, Hey, can you reach that can up on the top shelf for me? And he would go, he'd reach for it and he'd go, sure can, and then start to walk away. And they'd be like, No, no, no, no, no. Like, can you hand it to me? And he was like, that's not what you asked. And then he would get it down for them. And it was just he was hilarious. Daiana, LMHC: just messing with them. Mm-hmm. But that goes to show how much they hear it and it it gets Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: annoying. So I get it. I get it. I think it's so cute that he called you to tell you that though. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: It was great. It was it made my day. It really did. So in other news, we do talk about quiet losses on this show. And today we're going to talk about cumulative grief, secondary loss, and identity loss. But before we begin, we're going to do a little check-in, which we just did, but we're also going to play a new game called Overrated or Underrated. Where we will throw out common coping mechanisms, cliche or self-care trends, and we just have to immediately declare overrated or underrated, giving just one sentence to justify our answer. And just so people know this is not hard and fast or set in stone. If you're if you do some of these things, that's okay. But just just know that this is this is our take on it. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I was just like, that that's a very nice sentiment. and I think that that's had to be said. But I was just thinking we should have gotten signs, you know, like the the the flip, like flip it over. Next Cassandra, LMHC: Boop boop boop. Daiana, LMHC: time. Next time we play, we're gonna have little signs so that we can do overrated and underrated. All right. Cassandra, LMHC: I have poster board in my garage, don't you worry. Daiana, LMHC: We're gonna do it. We're gonna do it. We just get better every time, right? All right, so this is actually one that Pisses me off. So I guess you're gonna know my answer. All right. The phrase is everything happens for a reason, overrated. Cassandra, LMHC: Why? Why is it overrated for you? Daiana, LMHC: You can say it at the same time. okay. It's overrated because, like we were talking about our in our last episode, it it's invalidating. And the reason it's invalidating is because our assumptive world is just crum and crumbles. It just it's disappeared. And we can't even see that reason yet. Yes, maybe in the future you're gonna find meaning, but in that moment. Your world has been rocked. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: So I get it. And and a lot of these things that I think are overrated or we overuse it, the intention is so good. It is that Cassandra, LMHC: Yes. Daiana, LMHC: I don't want you to feel that bad. I, you know, and we've talked about it in the past that it makes us feel better. It makes the person saying it that's uncomfortable feel better as well. So Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: it comes from a good place, but in the moment, it's, you know, it's not. And I think it's overused. Cassandra, LMHC: It's not as helpful as one would hope it would be. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yep. Cassandra, LMHC: But the next one, however, screaming Daiana, LMHC: Ha ha ha. Cassandra, LMHC: into a pillow. That one is, if we're gonna say this at the same time, let's do a countdown. One, three, two, one. Underrated. Daiana, LMHC: Underrated. I just think about my daughter screaming into a pillow and it helped. Cassandra, LMHC: It does. It it can be a very highly effective, free and harmless way to release pent up physical tension. Like it can it can really help you when you're trying to process things. Also, something that I find to be a little bit underrated and I do from time to time is screaming into the void of my car. that one will get you some looks though. I'm not gonna lie. If you're doing that Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: one in a parking lot or in my driveway. people are gonna Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: kinda take notice to that. You'll get a few text messages about that one. Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When I saw the screaming into the pillow, the reason I think about my daughter, or even just children, is that if we look at children, they naturally cope in ways that are effective. We might not Cassandra, LMHC: Yes. Daiana, LMHC: like them, but you don't tell a kid scream into a pillow. Mo children will just do that. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: They'll just do that because they wanna release it and they have some awareness that they don't want to be too loud. So Cassandra, LMHC: I should start keeping a pillow in my car because whenever I pick up my four year old from school, she usually spends like the first twenty minutes of the car ride just screaming in general. She she's got a lot of pent up tension from from the school day to release, so she just she does a bunch of screaming. Daiana, LMHC: Spring a pillow. Yeah. But when we were putting this together, I I I had chosen screaming to the pillow and then you said that something that is overrated, which I thought was really interesting. What do you think was overrated? Cassandra, LMHC: I think punching pillows is overrated. what this does is if you are having feelings and you're having emotions, especially like anger and things of that nature, and you start punching pillows, it kind of trains your body the aggression is the correct response to this feeling, whatever the feeling is, and then it will potentially breed more aggression. So I would say that punching pillows is overrated while screaming pillows is pretty harmless, honestly. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. I didn't actually know that, about what you just said about punching a pillow. I just know I remember working with adolescents in the psych hospital, they used to say, Well, I punching a wall they would punch a wall and say, Well, at least I didn't punch your face. And I'm like, True. but if you punch a wall, I can see how that aggression they they would say like, but it lets out my aggression. It's like, yeah, but you're also hurting yourself. And there are people who've punched walls and break their fingers and Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: cause a lot of harm. So that makes even more sense for me now that your body will then seek out that aggression when dealing with Cassandra, LMHC: Right, and Daiana, LMHC: negative emotions. Cassandra, LMHC: if they're saying things like, At least I'm not punching your face, how many times are you gonna punch a wall before it's my face? Daiana, LMHC: Right. Ooh, we just got deep. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: The thing I do. Daiana, LMHC: I was just also thinking, I wonder if we're gonna agree on each one. We may not, but the next Cassandra, LMHC: that's a good point, because the next one could be a bit controversial. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I could be. All right. Cassandra, LMHC: Go ahead. You I know this one is near and dear to your heart. Daiana, LMHC: Bubble bath as an ultimate self-care. Three, two, one. Overrated. Cassandra, LMHC: I think it's kinda underrated. Mmm yeah. I I don't think we see eye to eye on this one. Daiana, LMHC: All right. Listen, it's okay. Do you wanna go first while he's underrated? Cassandra, LMHC: Alright, so maybe not as the ultimate self-care, but Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: there's something really nice about like being in a pool of warm water, kind of weightless, and just having some time to be quiet with your thoughts while like the world is kind of moving around you. So I I actually really enjoy that one. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Do you do it? Do you take bubble baths? Cassandra, LMHC: So before I had a small child I actually would do it pretty frequently. Not bubbles because I'm always Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: afraid of like UTIs and things. But I would just take regular baths. Daiana, LMHC: Good point. Cassandra, LMHC: but now my bathtub pretty much belongs to my four year old. and she Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I can see that. Cassandra, LMHC: loves it. So it's gotta be great. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, I can see that. I do ag agree that with any of these, and I always think of journaling as one of them, that it sounds ideal, like all, you Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: know, journaling or bubble baths. And that a lot of people think that those are the way. And that's why I put ultimate, because it's like it's the way. It's the one thing that actually works. And it might not be your thing. It might not be your thing. So for me, it's just that I think it is an ideal thing. I wish I could, you know, just lay down in a tub with bubble baths. I'll take the risk. But it's just that it just doesn't happen. I'm thinking I have to clean the tub first, you know, then I have to clean it after, and it just becomes a thing. And Cassandra, LMHC: you're doing too much. Daiana, LMHC: Maybe maybe I'm doing too much. Cassandra, LMHC: Just get in the tub. Just get in the tub. You'll be fine. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. It will be fine. All right. So and this is another one that you brought up, so that I think was great. Cassandra, LMHC: Well, this one's also kind of like one of those idealistic ones, going for a walk. Daiana, LMHC: Three two one, underrated. Cassandra, LMHC: Underrated. Daiana, LMHC: I think it's so underrated. Cassandra, LMHC: Co so I I often tell people, like, move your feet, change your mind. So movement actually does provide natural dopamine that helps you battle both anxiety and depression. Plus it just feels kinda good. However Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: It's another one of those ideal ones. If it's not your thing, it's not your thing. walking is not my thing. I'll go for a bike ride, I will go to the gym, I will join a group fitness class. For me, I have ADHD, so doing things with other people is much more helpful to me. I find walking boring, but it is a really great tool. So Daiana, LMHC: It is scientifically as well, like EMDR ART accelerated resolution therapy is based on that bilateral stimulation. So when you're Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: walking and you're stopping one foot at a time, and if you are processing your day or thinking about something without music and you're taking in your environment, it's very therapeutic. It's very helpful. Cassandra, LMHC: Yes. Daiana, LMHC: But I love that point. If it's not for you, don't this is my thing. If it's not for you, don't force yourself. Try it a couple of times. If it's not for you, it's not for you. Cassandra, LMHC: No. And that's okay. There's no shame around it. Like, sometimes when you hear these things that work for all these other people, you're like, it's gotta work for me and if I if it doesn't, then there must be something wrong with me and then that invokes shame, which just makes us feel worse. No, sometimes things just aren't for you and that's okay. Daiana, LMHC: This number, this next one is sounds like a little bit to me, like the first one, everything happens for a reason, but maybe a little different. And it's saying time heals all wounds. Cassandra, LMHC: Three two one overrated. Daiana, LMHC: overrated overused as well I like that you said that earlier Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: overused right I I do think that's giving time too much credit time alone you know it's just time passes regardless but is what you actively do with that time that actually helps and sometimes that time is doing nothing is just resting it is Giving yourself a pause and letting time support you with rest or whatever it is, the thing that you need. Cassandra, LMHC: I do think that some things take time. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Like, I have sometimes I'm a little bit like I want what I want and I want it now. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: which is not the greatest way to move through the world. So I have had to come to the understanding that some things take time. And then like processing things takes time and all these different things require time in order for them to happen. But I like how you said it gives time too much credit because time's not healing anything. Giving ourselves the time to do what we need is where the healing actually happens. Daiana, LMHC: I think for some people it gives them the perception that just wait. Just wait, Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: let time pass, and good things will come or something will happen. And it's for me, it's just always a combination of both. Right? Cassandra, LMHC: Yes. Daiana, LMHC: You can't just let time pass and see what happens. Right? We have to be an active participant in it. Cassandra, LMHC: Now this next one is one of my favorites. Daiana, LMHC: Okay. Cassandra, LMHC: So I'm sorry that I'm giving this away ahead of time, but this is one of my favorites. Muting or blocking someone on social media. One Daiana, LMHC: Three, two, one. Underrated. So underrated. Cassandra, LMHC: Underrated. Yep. It's protecting your peace and establishing a boundary is like top tier strategy for surviving ambiguous loss. And not gonna lie. Sometimes I take this one a little bit further. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: if I am having certain sorts of emotions or feeling some kind of way about a person or a situation, I have been known to just delete an entire text thread so I don't have to look at it anymore. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Like it's it's similar to me blocking someone on social media or just kind of allowing myself the peace and the space to not have to worry about those things anymore. Daiana, LMHC: You know, you gave me that advice not that long ago. And it's actually helped me so much. I've never deleted a text chain. Never. Because I would go back, right? Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: But now whenever I think about going back, I'm like, well, it's not even there for me to look back. Cassandra, LMHC: Yep. Daiana, LMHC: So it has I have noticed it when I've gotten a memory or something comes up for me and I think back. But what what are you know what we're really doing is just you know, checks and balances. We're like, did they s really say this and did I really say that? And when you're just repeating that same thing over and over is not helpful. I'm really so the thing is also with social media is that all or nothing tends to not work, right? there's some people who never got into social media. I know people who are not on social media, they never got into it, so they, you know, they're fine. But once you're in it, it's really difficult. I think curating your what, you know, your friends list, the videos and things that you watch, it you're gonna be, if you're gonna be there anyway, then have it support you. For me, I made a rule. It's like, why am I there? Or I'm there to connect with people. So if I'm not there connecting with people, if I'm just passively looking, then I just don't go on. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Right. And with time, I've used it less and less for entertainment. I don't use it for entertainment at all, really. I use it for for my business and to to talk to people. Right. And what makes me really happy is that now the my algorithm is only happy things. Like it is either things I'm interested in, different hacks and home stuff and hair stuff, even pets. I think some people that know me would be amazed that there's like dog stuff now there too. But so then it supports you. People tend to vilify social media a lot and it know it could really be helpful. And when it comes to grief, a lot of people do share their grief. And I think Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: it it it's a really helpful thing. Something that I've been struggling with my own grief right now is that that concept of grief needs to be witnessed, but it's like by who? Who's going to be the right people? Because it's not for everyone. And Cassandra, LMHC: Right. Daiana, LMHC: when you are on social media and people are sharing about the same type of grief you're going through, then there's an opportunity to feel seen and communicate and dialogue and all these things. So I think that muting and blocking you're not being a bad person. you are taking good care of yourself and you're making something you already do more helpful. Cassandra, LMHC: And if you can't handle muting or blocking someone because you will go back and unmute them or unblock them, my favorite go-to is deactivating your account. Like, I love deactivating my account. It's just it Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: fe that fills me with peace and joy. And unfortunately, it's not something I'm able to do right now. But believe me, if I could, I would have a while it back. Just because there's so much noise out there. And the noise isn't always something that fuels the positive in me. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, so if you can't get off of it, then muting and blocking does become even more helpful by curating Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Daiana, LMHC: what you've seen. Now this one is the the controversial one for me, this next one. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: Retail therapy. Three, Cassandra, LMHC: Okay. Daiana, LMHC: two, one, underrated. Cassandra, LMHC: Overrated. girl. Girl. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Okay, I get it. I do get it because I love Daiana, LMHC: Yes. Cassandra, LMHC: like I will I will Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: go on Amazon, add stuff to my little cart, and like leave it there for a week and then go back in and be like, what was I thinking? And like delete all these different Daiana, LMHC: That's such a great challenge. Cassandra, LMHC: things. That's my favorite stuff. But there have been times in my life where I will be wide awake at three o'clock in the morning and then three days later something shows up at my door and I don't remember ordering it. But in that moment I was dopamining. And so the reason Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: why I feel this was overrated is that the dopamine hit only lasts for a little bit. And then I have to like pay the bill or like explain to my kids why we can't buy groceries that week because I've spent all my cash. You know, like stuff like that. So it retail therapy to me is a little bit overrated. Daiana, LMHC: I think it's one that's common. It's a a cliche. and as you're talking, you realize how many guardrails I put around it. whether it's window shopping or I love putting things in my car and not buying them. Honestly, Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: at the end of the month or whenever I looked at it, I'm like, look how much money I saved by not buying all of these things, right? So it's like maybe I have a broader sense of what retail therapy is. I think I've also realized as you're talking that I created a lot of rules around it. You know, I do check if I'm going to regret it or if I can afford it or not. But Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I do believe in that life is hard and we can't just deprive ourselves of everything. But I guess it all goes into not having extremes and having some parameters around that. For yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: That's right. And you know, I like the idea of cardrails. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, because the thing is for me, when you tell me not to do something, that's when there's probably a problem. I'm be like, I'll show you. I could do whatever I want. Cassandra, LMHC: Watch me. Daiana, LMHC: Watch me. I could do whatever I want. So I think I do Cassandra, LMHC: Wide string. Daiana, LMHC: that with myself. Like I don't give myself, I give myself like some boundaries and limits, but not say don't do it. Cause then then that's when I'm gonna do it. Cassandra, LMHC: Alright, so this one is one of my personal favorites. Daiana, LMHC: Me too. Cassandra, LMHC: It could be controversial, it couldn't not be controversial, like it's it's completely how you wanna take a look at it. But canceling plans to stay home in your sweatpants. Daiana, LMHC: Two one. Underrated. Cassandra, LMHC: Underrated. Hand over fist underrated. So sometimes, like my social batteries, just not into it. And when I'm overwhelmed by grief, especially, it is a supreme act of self-care. Now there is a difference between choosing to stay home in your sweatpants and not being able to leave the house. There is a difference. Daiana, LMHC: Or isolating, yeah. Different. Cassandra, LMHC: right. So when we're so deep in grief that we're isolating, that's a little bit different than when you are like, you know what, I don't want to go out at eight o'clock tonight and have dinner with people because I'd rather stay home and because I'm overwhelmed and and it just isn't speaking to me. You want me to go out? It's gotta be before eight. I'm just telling you that right now. Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I think this comes with age too. my husband and I were talking about not being invited to weddings or being invited to weddings. And when you're younger, you're like, my gosh, I'm so like sad they didn't invite me. And now we're just like, okay, great. Like, I'm not invited. Because the thing is that we know now when you're friends, if we're not invited to your wedding and we're actually a part of your life, we'll probably see you next weekend or we'll plan a dinner together. We know that that's a very specific thing. We know how much money goes into it. And we don't get, you know, butthurt. Cassandra, LMHC: The thing that I never get butthurt about with weddings is if I am invited, but it's an adult-only situation. Like again, I understand the amount of money that goes into it, I understand the amount of space, I understand all of those things, plus sometimes it's really healthy to spend a little bit of time away from your minions. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah, I know that p some people take that to heart and they're like, Well, if you're not my kids can come, I'm not going. Cassandra, LMHC: That's okay too. Daiana, LMHC: What do we want to do? Mm-hmm. That is. yeah. Counseling plans. Cassandra, LMHC: Okay, and this last one. Daiana, LMHC: Yes, this one's one of my favorites. And I think we actually recon this one, I think. Cassandra, LMHC: I believe so as well. Alright, so making dark jokes about your trauma. Daiana, LMHC: Three, two, one. Underrated. Cassandra, LMHC: Underrated. It's go ahead. Daiana, LMHC: So I think the work that we do, listening to a lot of trauma, processing our own, going through our own stuff. And I see this a lot with first responders, firemen, police officers, nine one Cassandra, LMHC: Nurses. Daiana, LMHC: one operator, nurses, doctors, emergency room people. Like when you see a lot of trauma day to day. There is something that humor does to you that lightens it, right? We're never making fun of it. It's a joke, but it's not, we're not making fun of it. We're we're laughing with it. And I think you and my husband have even darker senses of humor than I do. So sometimes I'm like, damn, but like it's funny and like we can laugh about it. We're not ignoring it. It's because we've processed it, because we've accepted it as reality. humor is so important. I think sometimes people think that it's a avoidance and it's and it's not always the case. Cassandra, LMHC: And also, like, sometimes that's the only way to say just how much pain you're really in. I I always keep an eye out for things like that when like I'm even talking and I'll make a joke and people just kinda stare at me. I'm like, that's something I should probably talk to my therapist about, huh? Like it it's it's a way to pinpoint what is going on internally that we might not even be aware of. Daiana, LMHC: Absolutely. So I I love it. I'm all about it. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: So there's a lot of different sides to it. Bring it on. Daiana, LMHC: Okay. So we're going to move on to our our next piece where we're going to look at these coping mechanisms and how they relate to the different types of grief. This is going to be a little bit surface because we have talked about it before. And with this way that we're doing the episodes this season, you're going to be hearing it across four episodes in different ways. So we're not bombarding you with so much information. Cassandra, LMHC: So what that means is that today we'll be talking about cumulative grief, secondary grief, secondary loss rather, and identity loss. And we're going to connect them to the different ways of coping, which we just kind of went over. But if you wouldn't mind, just take a little second to maybe subscribe or like however you're listening to this. It would just it would mean the world to us as we are working to build our listener base and reach more friends who might need to hear this. Daiana, LMHC: Absolutely. Alrighty. So the first one is that, well, actually, even before that, it's also connected to our interviewee that we're gonna have next next week. Cassandra, LMHC: So we have a really incredible and powerful interview coming up with Kristy Halvorsen. She's a nomadic world traveler and the author of a book called The Perfect Unfolding. Her story is deeply moving and touches on so many overlapping layers of invisible grief because her journey is just so rich. We decided to break this conversation into a special two-part series. Daiana, LMHC: Moving forward, this is probably what it's going to look like, right? Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. So we're going to set the stage by defining the specific types of grief that she experienced so that when you're listening to her interview, it gives you some background information about the clinical vocabulary so that when you're listening, you can perhaps see these things in your own life and see the themes clearly of her journey. Cassandra, LMHC: And that way, like when stuff pops up in even in her interview, you'll understand a little bit more where she's coming from. Like with things such as cumulative grief or grief overlord. Not overlord, overload. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. It is an overwar. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: It is the overlord of overloadedness is what that is. what this is, and it's literally like the the king koopa of grief, is it's the multiple losses occurring in close succession, and you don't have adequate time to process any of the previous ones. So it's one after another after another after another, and it's learning how to grow with and accept that. So it's like Daiana, LMHC: It's an avalanche. Cassandra, LMHC: It's an absolute avalanche. Daiana, LMHC: Like that's a mm-hmm. Yeah. Some people say like domino effect, but avalanche really does it for me because that is scary. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And so that coming down, it you can't really outrun it, right? So you're dealing with you could be dealing with terminal illness in the family, a breakup, professional setbacks, moving all at the same time. And you'll see that in within her story. Cassandra, LMHC: And like quite honestly, this is kind of where that whole canceling plans to stay home and your sweatpants comes in. Because sometimes things just add up and the avalanche takes us over and we just can't do the next thing. Daiana, LMHC: Right. Yeah. Absolutely. This is when you want to calm that nervous system and honor you said like honor your peace, honor that you have a zero percent battery and that you're not being a flake, that you're just really taking good care of yourself. It's necessary. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Absolutely. One hundred percent. But like we said, be mindful of the difference between choosing and isolation. There's a huge difference between allowing yourself the time and not being able to leave the house. Daiana, LMHC: Absolutely. And this next one is the disenfranchised grief is grief that is not socially validated or openly acknowledged by others. Right? in society there is like this hierarchy of grief that people just made up. And when someone dies, people understand that sadness and they support that sadness. And even that has a lot of room for Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: growth, especially with the things that we've mentioned earlier that people say that are overrated that are not very helpful. Right. So because of that, we we we dismiss or we don't often notice these in b other invisible griefs that come with it. Like the end of a romantic relationship. Like, okay, that person was an A-hole. Yes, but that person may still be grieving that person, whether they know they were good for them or not. Right. the silent losses of changing careers. Again, even when things are good, when it's a good thing, there's still grief within it because there's still also a loss. Cassandra, LMHC: This is where the idea of telling someone that everything happens for a reason can actually do more harm than good because maybe we don't even know really what they're going through. And to invalidate something that's already being invalidated, like the even the loss of a pet or the ending of a friendship, just kind of throwing some positivity at it without really understanding what the person is going through. it can make them feel even more unseen and unheard. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, exactly. That's where that toxic positivity comes in. Toxic positivity, what it looks like is when you're not acknowledging that it is hard and that it is painful. There are other ways to say it. There's other ways to bring a person hope and say, you know, I am I'm with you through this and I'm so looking forward when things feel lighter for you. Something that is actually true, that is not dismissing the other part. Cassandra, LMHC: We had that episode a while back in season one with Heidi. and she gave a lot of really good feedback on how to support someone who's grieving. And I I felt like what she shared could be used in a lot of different circumstances. Even just checking in, like, how can I help you today? Or Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: not even asking them how you can help, but just taking notice of what needs to be done. Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: doing it. Mm-hmm. Go ahead. Cassandra, LMHC: And I think the last one that we said that we were gonna talk about was the identity loss. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: So this one is mourning the intangible losses such as an imagined future or even a role transition, like you said earlier, like changing jobs, changing the color of your house, moving, doing all sorts of different things that you were able to identify as part of who you were, and then suddenly you don't have that anymore. It could be completely changing your life's directory trajectory, or it could even just be like a mild inconvenience that feels so much bigger. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. And to have empathy also for the people who may not be supporting you, it's an imagined future, right? That we people don't know unless you tell them about it. And that is something that's also helpful for that person. And that just reminded me because of Heidi's conversation. She talked about like what's our part? Like we can also reach out. We can't just be mad at people for not supporting us. So that that is always a great episode to always go back to. And when we thinking about supporting ourselves, muting and blocking on social media during a time that you're struggling with this imagined future that's not gonna happen, or the years in the past. Sometimes we grieve the years that we're not gonna get back. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: That is when you know, muting or blocking on social media is helpful. Because you're trying to remind yourself. Cassandra, LMHC: It can help you s it can also help you sort of reimagine the person that you want to be. Because maybe these people aren't feeding who you are, who you're meant to be any longer. Maybe they're holding you back from that next chapter. Daiana, LMHC: So as we wrap up today, we're moving to our favorite part. Our favorite segment of the show is the Living Lost Lessons. Cassandra, LMHC: This is where we leave you with a tangible tool or mindset shift because it's not about fixing grief. It's about finding the strength to carry it. Daiana, LMHC: Looking back at everything we talked about, I think this whole episode leaned towards these living loss lessons, what we what we learned from it. We joked about it, like whether it's overrated, underrated, and as Cassandra said in the beginning, this is very personal to you. And sometimes our coping mechanisms are not, you know, quote unquote helpful in the long run, but Let's just be honest, like we sometimes just need that. Even if we Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: have to pay the credit card bill the next month, or it's not necessarily going to help us more than a fleeting moment. Sometimes that's what all we need is a fleeting moment. Cassandra, LMHC: And to be gentle with ourselves and offer ourselves the grace to accept that, that grief isn't perfect, we aren't perfect. It's gonna be whatever it's gonna be, it's gonna need whatever it's gonna need, and you're gonna need whatever you're gonna need. So if there is that moment where let's say you buy random lipstick, three tubes Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: of it at three o'clock in the morning and then forget about it and then it shows up three days later, forgive yourself for that and rock the lipstick, 'cause honestly it looks pretty good. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I I love that. I love that. So as we prepare for Christy's story with you in our next episode, we hope that this can help you take a pause today, recognize your invisible losses that you might be carrying. And as Cassandra said, give yourself a little more grace. Cassandra, LMHC: And please make sure to join us next time for a conversation with Kristy Halmerson. She's going to be talking with us about navigating the unknown and finding your peace in the perfect unfolding. But until then, just remember your grief is valid and take care of yourselves. Daiana, LMHC: Thank you, Cassandra. You're the best. And please subscribe so that you never miss a new episode. And if this conversation reminded you of someone who needs to hear that their grief is valid, please share it with them. Cassandra, LMHC: Just as a quick reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we are not your therapist. And this does not replace professional mental health care. If you do feel like you'd like to speak with someone, please reach out to a professional near you. Daiana, LMHC: you next week on The Living Loss.