Latest / The Last Analog Marketers / Interview with Ann Green
Transcript
- speaker-0: And now, you're listening to the Last Analog Marketers Podcast. For marketers who lived through the transition to digital and the newcomers who inherited the results, using the past as a lens to understand the present and navigate the future with intention. With your hosts, Aaron Peterson and Jamie Jones. speaker-1: Jamie, so quick thought experiment before we bring in today's guest. In nineteen eighty-five, a brand tested a TV spot by locking twelve strangers in a room with a moderator, a one-way mirror, and a plate of stale donuts. speaker-2: my gosh, it's very analogue. speaker-1: Yes, of course. It was very analog. Now today that same brand can run a rough cut through a model before lunch and get a frame by frame emotional read on it. Thirty nine different emotions tracked second by second before a single human ever sees it in a theater test. It's pretty remarkable. Yes. speaker-2: But the question is, did we get better at knowing what works or we did we just get faster at being wrong? speaker-1: Well that's what we're hopefully gonna find out more about today. speaker-2: All right, well welcome back to the Last Analog Marketers, the podcast where we look at where marketing has been so we can make sense of where it's going. I'm Jamie Jones. speaker-1: And I'm Aaron Peterson. Jamie, I feel like every episode we do eventually kind of circles back to this same tension where everybody wants the speed and scale of digital and AI, but nobody really wants to give up the judgment and craft that the analog era has for had forced upon us because you literally couldn't afford to be sloppy when, you know, a single copy test cost six figures and took six weeks. speaker-2: Exactly. The feedback loop was slow and expensive, but it gave you a discipline that I think is imperative in today's world. you know, you're gonna think harder before you spend that money. I literally started a ad campaign yesterday and like to the day I'm like, I know it can't go over the cap, but I'm still watching it constantly because I wanna make sure it's okay. speaker-1: And today's guest has basically spent her entire career living at that exact intersection that we're talking about, where research sort of meets creative. She's tested ads in the era of day after recall studies and mall intercepts, and she's testing ads today in the era of generative AI and predictive modeling. speaker-2: She's the founder of Greenlight Consulting. She previously taught a course called Informing Creative Development at NYU School of Professional Studies, which I love that title because it basically names the whole tension that we're here to talk about. And she sits on the ARF's Creative Council and has judged both the Grand Ogilvy Awards and the Effies in the past. So she's not just studying from the sidelines, she's actually in the room. When the industry decides what great creative even means, and most importantly, she's a very old friend of ours, and I'm very excited to have her here today. speaker-1: Yes, please welcome Anne Green. Anne, thanks so much for being here with us. speaker-0: Thank you so much guys. Jamie, I'm not sure how I feel about the label of old. I love myself as current and and relevant. So we'll we'll my introduction speaker-2: Yes. speaker-0: and but thank you so much for having me guys. I appreciate it. speaker-1: Yeah, we're really excited to have you. So let's start right at the beginning. You know, you've got over three decades in marketing, advertising, and brand building, you know, insights. How did you end up specifically at the intersection of research and creative instead of just, you know, pure account planning or pure research? speaker-0: Sure. I have a feeling like a lot of your guests, I didn't go into research or insights intentionally. in fact I don't know many people who go into insights or research intentionally. I think it's a a little bit of a career path for misfits, but I I embrace it. so I actually went to school to be a civil engineer. And after a couple of months of going to school to be a civil civil engineer, I realized, God, I hate this. and so came out of my university education with a marketing degree. And back in the day I was looking for a job and I saw this thing, saw a post in this thing called the newspaper. yes, back in the day, boys and girls, you used to actually get jobs from newspapers. And I thought, hey, it's market research. Century level, I can do this. And that is how I got into market research, is I ended up with a company called Miller Brown, which was eventually acquired by Cantor. And while I was at Cantor, or while I was at Miller Brown, I was on the team that launched link copy testing. So that is really where my passion for creative started. It was a fascinating tool that was designed to predict how ads performed in market. And not only was it designed to predict that performance, it was designed to optimize it. It was heavily diagnostic. It was really about the art and the craft of advertising as opposed to just sort of grading it. And throughout my career, I got an opportunity to get introduced to insights tools, research tools that could be used throughout the creative development process. So my entry point was testing, but over time I had an opportunity to do more work in the early stages. You know, one of my favorite moments was when we had an opportunity to work with a company, Second City, on using improv as part of the creative development process. I mean, you talk about feeling inspired and having an opportunity to do something really groundbreaking in the field of research. that was it. So speaker-1: Sessions were really cool. speaker-2: They're They were some of my favorite things we did. Yeah, I totally agree. speaker-1: I really do think and I remember we we did sort of a mini pop-up version of one of them at one of the annual breakthrough events and had the Second City team come. And it was just really, really cool the way that that interaction with the audience happens and how you really get that that emotional feedback to what's going on. So certainly a really interesting, interesting sort of bringing that older process somewhat forward, right, into a modern approach where, you know, you have audiences. And you can also see how that's now translating into, you know, digital versions of that sort of thing, right? but before we get into all of that, let's let's start back at the beginning and and stop with start with sort of that that early analog era that you mentioned at the beginning. So, you know, in the eighties and nineties, you know, before digital, can you sort of walk us through a little bit about what advertising was like at that point in time sort of how what that meant for the market research that of course was you know was measuring it or paying attention to it. speaker-0: Sure, sure. Well in the eighties and and early nineties, to be perfectly honest, it was all about TV. The vast majority of the spend went behind TV. Yes, there was some print, there was some outdoor, but the bulk of the advertising dollars went to TV. And TV was different. There was no such thing as streaming. You couldn't skip a TV ad. You basically had the benefit of a mostly captive audience. And the only way to avoid a TV ad was if you left the room. Now, having said that, you still had to get people's attention. And beyond getting people's attention, you also had to get them to think something about your brand, believe something about your brand, have some sort of association, and then ultimately to buy or to consider your brand. So that was the platform that a lot of advertising was built around. The other media were basically extensions of your TV campaign. And you could use TV for emotional arcs, for narrative storytelling, but you could also use it for the hard sell. So there was a lot of flex in terms of how you could use TV. But that was the tent pole. But the processes were different. TV was slow. I mean you had you could plan TV campaigns for a year, 18 months. You had the gift of time back then. You don't have that anymore. And as a result, research really followed suit. Research was slow. It was deep. copy tests alone, so just testing a single ad could take four to six weeks. It could cost twenty to thirty thousand dollars. And you can imagine these days there's no way we would get away with that. And it was done in a different way. Copy testing was done in malls, as you had referenced earlier, Aaron. Some of it was done on phone. It was only in the 90s that we started to explore whether or not we could do this online. So there was really a different equation for not only the media and how you develop campaigns, but the research that went along with it and how it was being used. speaker-2: I saw a really interesting post speaking of TV. someone said, MLB, if you want more kids watching baseball, I guess they're struggling with that audience, right? It's 2026, but you know, to people do and don't watch live TV sometimes. And the guy goes, If you want my kids to be watching live MLB, can you please look at your advertisements? There was an advertisement for poker and for online gambling, there was an advertisement for Cialis. And there was an advertisement with a very buxom blonde looking not dressed very well. And he goes, I would love my kids to watch more baseball live, but Your advertisements are incredibly inappropriate. And I think that every time my kids are watching NFL on Sundays, I think, gosh, I really hope they're not watching all these political ads. So I'm not sure we've even cracked the nut and on on TV advertising how 35 years later. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean you think about it. I mean we've made so many advancements in terms of our ability to target and to get the right ad to the right audience. And here we are still having this conversation today with MLB and what our kids are being exposed to in the T V breaks. speaker-2: Yep, exactly. Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And I think it's so important for us to remember where we came from. I mean, it's really kind of the crux of this whole podcast that we started. And we think it's interesting and important to remember the history because we have come so far, right? And as we shift into digital and measuring, not measuring TV ads, but measuring digital ads, which of course Are brand new, and we had a whole episode talking about how obnoxious those early World Wide Web ads were. you know, I think it's pretty cool that marketers like you and us at the beginning of our career were starting to figure out how we become a different kind of employee to the company, right? We have to shift and change and have a different type of marketing plan alongside of the way the world is just changing. And We do that, right? I mean, I think being in marketing, I've always felt like we have to be up on up to speed on what's the latest and greatest more than maybe anyone else in the company. So talk a little bit about what you saw as we stopped moving from four and six week turnarounds and TV advertising to the digital age. speaker-0: Sure. so At around sort of the 90s, we developed this thing called the World Wide Web. And that is where marketers fled to. They actually fled to this thing called the internet. And it made a lot of sense because that's where eyeballs were. but with that came a new currency. So you talked about all the different ad models that were appearing at that time. And to be perfectly honest, a lot of them were really obnoxious. I mean, for those of us that can remember, I mean we used to have pop-ups on our screen and it was awful. And so you had a lousy user experience. And to top it all off, the marketing environment was changing where the currency that was expected of brands at that time and of marketers was this thing called the click. So it was no longer about building brands and getting people to think about, you know, what are these associations with my brand and am I going to consider it? It was simply we want you to click, we want you to do something. But the fact of the matter is when you looked at the average of clicks, they were less than one percent. They were a small proportion of 1%. So, what was this click actually doing for your brand? So at one point, marketers came along and research companies came along and said, gosh, well, what is the impression to digital advertising actually doing? Is that having an impact on my brand? What is 99% of the exposure to my advertising actually doing? And this is where new tools started to come into the marketplace. So we started to See brand lift studies. They became a critical means to understanding whether or not your digital marketing was working. But then further, we also saw the evolution of copy testing. So smart marketers still really wanted to understand their creative. They still wanted to understand these ad units, and to a certain degree, they wanted to understand them before they actually went on air, for lack of a better term. But copy testing had to evolve. To be much quicker, much more streamlined. This is when the evolution of dashboards became absolutely critical because you didn't have the time and you you certainly didn't have the dollars. If you look at how much the spend model behind digital versus the spend model behind TV, it was radically different. And so the tools really had to undergo a significant transformation to match that. speaker-2: Yeah, and I remember in my early days at Cantar, Alan, I was just gonna say like you made me think of we had these posters that said Cantar gets g great creative and it was part of our partnership with the Ogilbees and it was that time period where market research companies needed to kind of and I think Cantar was trying to showcase themselves as someone who got the the clicks and the impressions and the dashboards and kind of the early age of all of the data, which we're gonna talk about where data's going, which is crazy, but the early age of all the data. But we wanted to tell people, hey, but we really care about creative too. And there was this juxtaposition between caring about the creative, but also caring about the data that was sort of in the early part of the time that I was working with you and it still has made an impression on me. you know, trying to balance those two things. And even in, you know, my day-to-day career now, it's like still a challenge. So I love how even in the eighties, even in the nineties, even now, like we always sort of have these same challenges. They just look a little bit different. speaker-0: Yeah. And it to mirror that, Jamie, I think what you're seeing is this tension between brand versus behavior. We're dealing with a marketing environment that was built on brand. That is what advertising and TV advertising in particular was all about. It was about creating predisposition for your brand, creating a relationship with your brand. And as we have become more digitized, as AI has started to get a footing, what we are seeing is Is that that tension with wanting to focus on the behavior has become even more elevated. And so how we manage that, how we learn from that journey that we have taken to find the right balance of brand versus behavior, I think is absolutely critical. speaker-1: think it's really interesting that you say that because it goes back to what you said at the beginning, which is that through line of attention, right? And attention really comes down to being able to get into that sweet spot, right? Between the data of really like knowing things, but the creativity to like spark and inspire, right? And to get someone to actually engage. And it's like coming up with that exact balance is is is part of what has also driven, like you said, that huge push in market research tools to evolve, to better understand and at the speed of digital at the same time, right? Because they had to. and so that's a perfect segue into our next section. and so let's talk a little bit about, you know, now we're into machine learning and AI, which You know, I I find very interesting where we're at right now. because I think that, you know, AI has obviously like gr grown exponentially very quickly in the consumer world. There's maybe not quite a full understanding from the general consumer of exactly what AI is and or machine learning and what the difference is between those things. and so I think it's very interesting to to have conversations still about this. and and because it does still, you know, make it so that people who maybe weren't aware of these things can better understand sort of where we came from. So why don't you walk us through a little bit of like what's happening right now in this current era. speaker-0: Sure. Well, let's say AI has been transformational, to put it mildly, in the creative development process. But to be honest, I don't think anybody's really cracked that nut. We just put together a white paper for the Advertising Research Foundation, and we had an opportunity to interview industry leaders and review a lot of what's out there in the industry and in academia. And We're all trying to work this out together. But there were a couple of really interesting patterns. One was that AI is really valuable at the earlier stages. and I was I was fascinated by this. But where its value comes into play is very often in the briefing process. You think about all the different information that you want to consolidate, that you want to bring together for the purposes of a strong brief. There's a lot, your own research, there's social media, there's cultural trends, there is a lot of brand research. you know, there is a lot of syndicated research. There's so much information that could be brought together for the purposes of a brief. And a brief Is really the critical kicking off point for Grit Creative. So it has tremendous value at that early stages. Even in sort of strategic hypotheses, you know, think about some of the hypotheses, some of the things you might want to explore with your brand in a new creative brief. You can actually put those out into AI and get initial reactions and see kind of what kind of response you get to them. It's also great for early executional concepts. What I mean by that is cre instead of taking the time to create animatics and boards and mock-ups, what it can actually do is it can create these concepts. You can actually put into AI means to create these concepts so that as you're coming up with new ideas, you can put them in front of your audience, you can put them in front of marketers, and you can say, hey, what do you think about this? Which is really interesting because that mock-up process used to take a long time. But now you can actually use AI to take some of the lift off. So I think there's huge value to AI early on in the development process. And there's also huge value to AI later on in the process. And if you think about, we talked about the digitization of marketing. If you think about the amount of content that has to be created, how personalized, how targeted, how segmented. it is. A agency, a marketer could never possibly keep up with that amount of content. They could never produce that amount of content. So for scaling purposes, AI, their its value is significant. What you haven't heard me say is I've talked about AI as a brainstorming partner, as a scaling partner, but what you haven't heard me say is AI as a means to come up with new ideas. New creative ideas. And I think this is critical because it goes back to what you were saying before, Erin, about this idea of attention. Attention is really what we are trying to do with advertising. No matter what platform, ultimately you need to get people's attention. And to get people's attention, you have to be relevant. But ideally, we know from all the work, all the studies of the human brain, that people pay attention to the things that are distinctive, they've never seen them before, and connect with them emotionally. Mm. Well what are two of the things that AI does not do well? It doesn't understand things it hasn't seen before, and it doesn't really understand human emotion. And so I think this is really quite important as we think about the role that AI plays in the creative development process. It is huge and it can take a lot of the lift off of us, but I think it allows us to spend more time on the human elements and those elements that ultimately help us to get people's attention. speaker-2: that no I I keep thinking about AI as the start and the finish, but the messy middle is where humans still need to have a big role. Because I do think you're right, like the briefing part, just it can get to that piece so fast and aggregating all of that information together. Man, it's incredible. And then versioning, right? Like, okay, we got the concept. Now I need 50 different versions for all the personas and we want to put them in all these different formats and reach all these different things. Like It's great at that. But in the middle where we really decide what's going to grab attention, is this different? I mean, how can AI come up with different ideas? It's just scraping ideas that already exist, right? So you're totally hitting on the piece where the humans come into this. and I don't know, like I sort of crave the human connection piece of it more and more as more machine-driven things are out there in the world. It's like, this is why we wanted to have a podcast. Because we can't replicate our faces, right? Like we could write content and AI can just spit it out and put it on LinkedIn, but we can't replicate us talking and chatting. And so I'm craving the human piece of it more and more. speaker-0: I love what you're saying, Jamie, about craving the human connection, because I'm the same way. I mean, where my passion for this industry came into place and the creative development process was realizing that this is such a human endeavor. This is not about testing ads and grading people's work. This is about really finding out what is going to get people to lean in and to pay attention. I think what's also interesting now is how AI has changed the research landscape as well. Erin, again, you touched on it before. Yeah, we talked about how testing used to take four to six weeks. To test an asset, now it takes like 15 minutes max, if that. And that's with humans actually entering in some prompts into the system. So You are seeing a huge shift in the research landscape, not only you know, the creative development process and all the stakeholders that are involved in that, but also in the research process and the tools that are being used. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I think the other thing that's fairly interesting and it made me think of this when you were talking about AI as a partner is in one of my early roles I worked at an ad agency that did a lot of managed a lot of co op programs for big brands and retailers. And so what that would mean is the agency would be given, you know, creative from the brand team that needed to be adjusted. for each one of those individual markets and dealers. And so in at the time, you know, we literally had a room of, you know, a half dozen or more graphic designers who were literally sitting there and taking the exact same shell of an ad and just doing thing and not not that their role wasn't important and that they weren't doing great things, but they were literally being forced to l do things that were very like functional and manual, like just change out this address in this box. And maybe change out what the main promo image is based off of what the individual retailer has decided they want to promote in that version of the ad. I mean it would literally I mean, every week they would produce hundreds of versions of the same ad just for these programs. And that's the kind of thing where I do think, you know, AI has a use case for stuff like that where those people's talents could be way better used working on real creative challenges instead of iterating you know, versioning of something. So I think there's a there's an interesting use case. speaker-2: My neighbor who lives next door to me is a graphic designer by trade. And both of us volunteer with a industri like a PTA in our neighborhood. And so both of us have been involved with doing creative work for them. And it's funny because, you know, she has those beautiful skills. Like she can come up with unbelievable concepts and bring it all together, mood board, et cetera. But like I can go into Canva Pro and create. seven advertisements for Instagram in like three probably an hour and a half on Friday on my phone. I didn't even Aaron, I used the small internet to do it, not even the big internet to do it. And that just shows you like I'm not a graphic designer by trade. I think I have a pretty good eye of things, but like the fact that I can do that and people are like, wow, that's so impressive. I'm like, it was just, you know, the AI within Canva Pro and it did most of the work. So It is such a different world. And I mean, Aaron and I did an episode going way back to like the madmen days. Like you, you really I keep thinking about what you said between brand and behavior. And like I kind of am sad for just the time when maybe it was a time even before I was really in marketing, but just a time when brand was everything and we and we just felt whether it worked or not. And now we don't get to do that. And that kind of sad. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Advantages to a world that is much more measurable. That is a good thing. Don't get me wrong. But you know, there is something to be said about the role that brand plays. And I think while it is less measurable, it is measurable. we just have to be patient. And sometimes in this AI-based world, we can be a little bit Pavlovian, we can be a little bit whack-a-mole in terms of how we approach our brands and business. speaker-1: Agree. A mirror brand takes time, right? It does. It t that's the thing. And the problem and the challenge, I guess, or that that we as marketers and market researchers face is getting the people in the C suite, you know, who aren't in marketing to understand that, right? And we've talked about this in in other episodes as well, that one of the big challenges that we have as marketers and as people who work in creative related roles is that there's such a focus on metrics and data and getting them quickly and in a dashboard that that it does it does sometimes feel a little frustrating and like we're sort of maybe s starting to lose touch with some of those elements that are really important. now that being said, I also feel like if if brands really do start to move away from it too much, they'll they'll see the re results, right? They'll see the results and how their customers interact with them, the The product sales, all of that stuff, like it will eventually it will eventually show up. speaker-0: We we've been talking about that at a lot of industry meetings, this idea of, you know, how much is too much? This idea of brand versus behavior or brand versus performance. And we know the dollars are shifting towards more performance based media and activity. But at what point will there be this bounce back? Will will it even occur? At what point is too much spend behind sort of that Pavlovian response going to actually come back and have a detriment detrimental impact on your brand? We don't know yet. speaker-1: Mm. I mean one of the things that makes me think of too, Jamie, is and you and I talked about before how one of the current situations with a lot of the streaming platforms is that you end up getting the same ad repeated to you over and over again while you're watching programming and and it makes you get to the point where yeah, that diminishing return, right? You get to the point where the first couple of times you're like, okay, like they bought an ad by and it's being targeted to me. Okay, I sort of get it. And then after like the sixth iteration of seeing the same ad, you're like, wait, is this actually really a good targeted ad by? Or is there just not enough like eyeballs in this audience, so I'm getting served it too many times? Or do they not understand that this repetition isn't working? And so it you know it it is still something that we're figuring out, I think. as we'll speaker-2: No ads on this podcast, at least for now, so enjoy. speaker-1: Yeah. The only things we promote on here are unintentional because we happen to mention something we like or don't speaker-2: Yeah, we don't get caught for any of it. To the to the lightning round now and I felt I really am excited about this. speaker-1: Yeah, let's jump into the lightning round. Okay. Alright, so first question I have is what is your favorite piece of sort of analog era research methodology that you actually miss? speaker-0: So I'm sorry guys, Aaron, I know you mentioned the stale donuts. but Jamie, you mentioned craving the human element. And I gotta tell you, I do miss focus groups. I miss good old fashioned focus groups. because as we've been talking about, I think the best creative really is human. But I also think it is a very team effort. And there was nothing like a good focus group where you, the marketer, the insights agency, the creative agency, everybody was around the table listening to the voice of the consumer. And that was so inspirational and really hearing how they were interpreting your ideas, how they were experiencing your brand, your category. There really was nothing like it. And yes, doing them online is fantastic. But God, those conversations that took place in between and you know, the brainstorming and the joking and the bonding, I really do miss that. I think we've lost lost a lot of the positives of focus groups, but not the stale donuts. speaker-2: I have a lot to say on that, but lightning round, so I will move on. one AI creative testing tool or approach that you think is genuinely underrated right now. speaker-0: So I wouldn't I wouldn't say that there's any tool that is specifically underrated. Honestly, I think they're all really good. And I think we are all trying to, as I said before, work it out. I think they all add value, but it is all in the hands of the user. And speaker-1: Agree. speaker-0: if you don't use these tools wisely, you can potentially make some poor business decisions. speaker-1: True. next one. What's a word or phrase that you'd just love to permanently retire from the creative research world? speaker-0: So I I love that you asked me this one because my pet peeve is the word test. Now we're never gonna get rid of the word test. I'm not naive, but God, so much of the research, time, and dollar get spent on testing. How much time, energy, effort, initiative has gone on by the time we have something to test is huge. And God, what a it just strikes me as an incredible waste to be spending all of our time at the testing stage and not as much time earlier on and really finding more of an inspiration. So I would love to see potentially less testing. I don't think I can get rid of it. Maybe less than speaker-2: I I think that makes a lot of sense. Okay. speaker-1: I also appreciate your honesty that you realize it's not gonna go away. speaker-0: Yeah, I'm not I'm not naive. speaker-2: Okay, put on your professor hat. One thing you tell every student on day one of informing creative development. speaker-0: So it's related to what we were just talking about with testing. So one of the things I talk to them about is most of their experience, a lot of what the students in my class are coming from some sort of experience of the research process or the advertising process. They don't know much about creative, but they have some experience of advertising. And so the sharpen of the spear with them has been testing. And so that tends to be their gateway into creative. Development thinking. And the big thing we talk about on day one is what the process should look like and how we almost need to invert this funnel. If we want to have great ideas, great executions, what we need to do is we need to flip from having a funnel that is focused on the back end, on the testing, on the execution, and really have one that is focused more on the insights and the ideas. And we talk a lot about about the tools and the the time that needs to be taken on filling that funnel. speaker-2: Me too. I wish I you were my professor back way back when speaker-0: It was a good one. speaker-1: All right, last one in the lightning round. so imagine, you know, thirty seconds into the future, what's the next tool or shift that you're watching, you know, sort of most closely in the industry? speaker-0: Yeah. Well, we've been talking about this sort of brand versus behavior dynamic. And I think the the big trend that I'm looking for is a reconciliation of tools. There are a lot of research tools out there right now designed to evaluate creative advertising and and campaigns. And there's sort of three buckets. There's the traditional lists. And the traditional lists are those that have developed their systems based upon the the power of brand, the ideas of memory and coding, and how we actually optimize almost our storytelling for those purposes. So those are sort of the traditional tools that I think I think are still incredibly relevant. You then have this new group of tools that are mostly AI based, and they are focused on more hygiene and best practices. So, with a lot of assets, a lot of content being produced, making sure that they adhere to best practices is absolutely critical. And what I mean by that is okay, are we showing the food being consumed at home versus actually shown being bought in the store? Are we actually featuring our logo in the right time? are we actually Using our color palette appropriately. Some of those hygiene things are absolutely critical just to getting the most out of your advertising. So there's a set of measurement systems that are built around that. And then the third is the publisher systems, so the platform systems. They are also having their own sort of measurement systems that are being built, and they are designed to optimize outcomes on their specific platform. And so if I were a marketer today, honestly, I would be having a hard time reconciling those three forces. What do I prioritize? Do I actually do traditional testing? Do I just measure and market? Do I just go through sort of best practices and make sure I'm adhering to some basic hygiene practices? I don't know. And I am really looking for sort of a reconciliation and a merging of those different best practices because I do think they all have incredible value, but you can't prioritize one right over the other. speaker-2: Well, and I think in that case too, that's why we get so much prioritization on behavior, because it is a little bit clearer black white, whether something worked or didn't work and the measurement of brand and whether you're actually reaching people and getting their attention and having them have a predisposition to wanting to buy your solution, your product, et cetera, is so much more gray. And so I think that's why we've like shift it all the way over here. We're like, well, we're not really sure. So let's just like go over here and do performance and talk about like all the things we can measure. And we're gonna ignore the things that are difficult right now. I mean that's really what to me it feels like we've done as marketers is just shift all the budget over here because it's easier to report up the chain like it worked or it didn't work. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And just doesn't mean you shouldn't. speaker-1: That's my fear. No. That's my fear too, like to your point and earlier, which is like are we going to see that resurgence bounce where people re realize the value of brand? or you know, w will consumers allow marketers and the industry to sort of move forward with this idea that you know, what's right in front of you is what's most important at any given moment or or I'm not sure like where this future is sort of heading. but as we wrap up, Jamie, do you wanna share our our one last thing for this episode? I know you had a recent Delivery. I guess. speaker-2: I did. I got we're talking about an being very analog. I got a piece of mail, like, you know, actual mail, not an email, from Nielsen asking me to participate in I think it was just a survey. I actually don't think it was like a long term commitment, but it had a dollar in it and dollar inside. And then like to me, that brings me back to so many memories, like Even as a kid, before I understood what marketing or market research was, to like being in the market research world, like the dollar, the doll the very crisp dollar always like, and I am one of those people, I'm like, but they gave me a dollar. I really should do this. Like something about the dollar makes me feel like I need to participate. I've I did, I will say, when I worked at Cantor, I always had mixed feelings about being like a survey participant, maybe because I sort of knew the inside baseball of some of those things. But now that I'm not in market research as my profession anymore, I guess I need to get back to being a survey participant more often. speaker-1: Yeah, it's really funny because I was telling Jamie in one of our early or first episode or two that at one point you know, we I was a we were at Nielsen household and I was filling out the diary physically and writing down like which one of us was watching which program at which point in the day. and, you know, it's just crazy that that we've come so far, but at the same time, you know, people are still getting the dollar in the mail, which I think is you know speaker-0: That's your attention. It's it's unexpected. speaker-1: It is attention. It is. It's absolutely. All right. Well, as we wrap up here, you know, I want to say thank you, Anne, for for joining us on the last analog marketers. It was really just a pleasure to have you on here. thanks again for being with us. speaker-0: Thank you guys. This is great. speaker-2: It was so fun to catch up and we miss working with you every single day. I miss working with you and all the stuff that we did together, but your expertise continues to be so valuable and I took a lot away from today and I hope our audience does too. And I wanna make sure, Erin, that we link the report down in the comments so that people can get access and read further about all the things that Anne is, you know, bringing together with her work at the ARA. speaker-1: Absolutely will do that for sure. And be sure to you know like, subscribe, all that jazz to support the podcast and also be informed whenever we release the latest content. for the last analog marketers, I'm Aaron Peterson. speaker-2: And I'm Jamie Jones. I hope you have a great day and we'll talk to you soon. speaker-1: Bye everyone. speaker-0: Thanks for tuning in to the Last Analog Marketers podcast. Like, share, and subscribe to keep in tune and show your support.