Latest / Legal Late Night / Vetting AI for Law Firms, Drunk Business Advice & Celebrity Shenanigans (Feat. Kristin Kenzy)

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Vetting AI for Law Firms, Drunk Business Advice & Celebrity Shenanigans (Feat. Kristin Kenzy) · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be mildly interesting when you're listening and watching enjoyment. First, I'm answering a question I get just about every day. How do you vet AI software for law firms? After that, it's time for some drunk ass business advice with Kristin Kenzy of Drunk Business Advice and yes, that's a real thing. Last but not least, Kristin gets quizzed on famous celebrity drinking stories, and yes, Robert Downey Jr. Is involved. Okay, it's time to talk about vetting ai, the breath. Probably the most common question I get asked lately, now that everybody is kind of a basic understanding of what generate AI is and because lawyers are starting to use it more and more aggressively is how should law firms vet AI tools? I'm glad you asked. I have some thoughts and I think it's a three part process, so let's dive into it. (01:06): Since the majority of the questions about AI usage revolve around inputting confidential data or client information into a software product, you can utilize the same vetting process you would have in assessing cloud software where data is stored. That means that you need to look at a few things. First, determine whether any federal laws like HIPAA apply to your practice and determine whether the software you're looking at is compliant with those laws. Second, determine how your state's data protection laws require you to secure your confidential data If those rules apply to you bet according to their requirements. Note that some state laws and regulations are more aggressive than others. For example, my Hope State Massachusetts requires covered businesses to create and manage a written information security program wisp and to record vetting activities. Third, you need to look at your state's attorney's rules of professional conduct, which likely have at least some provisions related to data security. (02:09): Those may include comment six or eight to rule 1.1 depending on your jurisdiction, which covers the need to keep abreast of technology developments and rule 1.6 regarding oversight of confidential information. If you're wondering what questions to ask about, there are a lot of ethics opinions circa 2008 to 2011, which list specific queries you can refer to cloud vendors around data security. Those are still pretty relevant, so begin with your state's opinions and understand that you're not being asked to guarantee data breach prevention. That's impossible. Your only obligation is to put up reasonable safeguards against data breach based on the size and scope of your business. Of course, that's all little news from a decade or more ago now at this. The environment's a lot more complicated. Now, artificial intelligence tools bring with them a whole new host of vetting questions, and that's your new challenge. (03:09): You'll need to review the service level agreement with any existing provider you use who now deploys AI to monitor changes to that document. For AI softwares that you're purchasing, you review the same document as you would in vetting any software as well as asking those basic security questions I just alluded to, an AI product may be storing data, in which case you can rely on the traditional data storage questions. Attorneys have relied on for vetting since the cloud era, but AI brings additional questions to the fore. You might also be asking whether the AI will store your data and if you can opt out of that, whether the AI will train on your data and if you can turn the training off whether and how your data interacts with the AI's large language model and whether that could potentially lead to an inadvertent disclosure of confidential information when your data interacts or intersects with the LLM data, which is particularly relevant for rag or retrieval augmented generation systems. (04:12): Whether the company you're set to engage with uses proprietary AI technology by labeled tools or a combination of both. Frankly, I don't even know that these questions are fair to ask lawyers to engage as it is really difficult to untangle the array of connections and likely unintended consequences of this mush of data with respect how it affects client confidentiality. Honestly, I don't think anyone really understands what that's all about yet. It's kind of like being asked to eat soup with a spoon, and while I think these questions represent a good starting point, I am hopeful that bar associations begin to supplement their AI ethics opinions or introduce new opinions and guidance relevant to vetting questions around AI tools and AI augmented softwares. Now, you will notice that I didn't mention hallucinations. While it is valuable to ask how often the software hallucinates, I don't think that that is a requirement for vetting softwares. (05:10): It's not a question that you necessarily need to ask per se, since you always want to be checking the validity of an AI source with third party tools or generally speaking AI outputs. You never publish push the AI output without attorney review. Now we're up to step three. The last step in the process, which is related to the use of the software betting AI tools also means understanding how they work in practice, and so you need to know how you'll operate these softwares, including how you should manage the settings for each system before you start using them. That means engaging important basic software interactions like selecting an additional factor of authentication beyond a password for access. Of course, you do that non-AI tools too, but with AI in particular, that also means things like understanding how to turn off the system's memory or disallowing model training. If you're looking for some practical thoughts on that, check out the Washington DC Bar's ethics Opinion 3 88, which is the most practically focused ethics opinion I may have ever read. It's really good kudos to you guys. So to my mind, this three part strategy represents a viable methodology for vetting AI software for law firms. Now, one thing, you don't need to vet the interview segment of the legal late night podcast because you already know it's damn good. Okay, then get ready for Kristin Kenzy. She's up next. (06:43): Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast, so I'm just going to silently sip some Mad Dog 2020 out of a paper bag while staring at the camera in a totally harrowing fashion. Now I'm just fucking with you. That sounds awful. Not going to be drinking a 30 proof liquor that tastes like electric melon, whatever the fuck that is. Time to podcast. Then let's introduce our guest. We have a great guest today. It is Kristin Kinsey of Drunk Business Advice. Hey, that sounds perfect, Kristin, welcome to the show. How are you? Kristin Kenzy (07:19): Thanks. I'm great. I think I've found my people over here. Jared Correia (07:23): Maybe we'll see. We'll see. We've never actually formally spoken to each other until this very moment, which is kind of what I like to do here. Frankly, Kristin Kenzy (07:34): It's easier when it's off the cuff for sure. Jared Correia (07:37): It's the voyage of discovery. We're getting to know each other live and everyone's watching, so when I usually do these shows, I will go to somebody's LinkedIn profile and I'll be like, okay, let me find their job title and their company. I didn't see that on your LinkedIn profile. I was lost. I'm like, what the fuck do I do now? Then I went to your website and I found a few different things that you do. Let me ask you this first, didn't see necessarily corporate information on your LinkedIn, is that some Gen Z shit I'm not aware of because I'm an elder of millennial or what's going on there? Kristin Kenzy (08:16): Well, I'm just really honored that you think I'm Gen Z. That's probably the best compliment I've ever gotten. Also, we like to start strong here. I am also elder millennial, but so no, the LinkedIn thing has nothing to do with Gen Z or any sort of trend that I'm following. It's just that my background is so chaotic that it would be horribly confusing to anyone who would try to string it together. I don't have a clear defined career pathway, nor do I technically have a job right now. I mean, if we're being honest, Jared Correia (08:49): That sounds fucking great. Honestly, Kristin Kenzy (08:50): I write a newsletter called Drunk Business Advice, which somehow I get paid to do. That happens. I make money doing it, and I run an entrepreneurship mastermind, which is again, very kind of on the DL and not something that we talk about a whole lot on LinkedIn is this Jared Correia (09:08): Fight Club? Kristin Kenzy (09:09): Yeah, the first rule of stealth Mastermind, it's literally called stealth, and I'll tell you why we called it stealth initially because it was very secret when we started. We were kind of in stealth mode, and then I was like, all right, well, we're not in stealth mode anymore. Let's come up with another name for our mastermind, and everyone was like, no, let's keep it stealth. Stealth is cool. So it's very on the dl, we don't talk about it very much. If you go to the LinkedIn page we have for it, it literally says, why the hell are you here? You're not supposed to be seeing this unless somebody invited you to look. You should leave right now. So as much as I am a bit of a public figure on Jared Correia (09:45): My day, it makes me want it more. Kristin Kenzy (09:47): Exactly. You've discovered our secrets, right? Jared Correia (09:50): It's working. Kristin Kenzy (09:51): Yeah, so no, I've never really been much for keeping LinkedIn as a digital version of my resume, which is how the platform started ages ago. It was just like where you parked your online resume, and then they introduced sort of a social media component, and now I mainly leverage it as a discovery tool to introduce people to Drunk Business Advice and all the outrageous stories we tell in the newsletter. Jared Correia (10:15): Yes, I'd love to get to that. Let me ask you this. So you've got this Drunk Business Advice, which is a newsletter. There's the Stealth Mastermind, and then you've got this Rebels Scribe thing too, right? Kristin Kenzy (10:28): So Rebel Scribes was a writing cohort that I ran the first version of in Q1 of this year. Our mutual friend, Ernie, was actually one of the Ernie Jared Correia (10:39): Ernie fencing. Shout out on the show. Ernie needed Kristin Kenzy (10:41): For sure, greatest guy ever. He actually enrolled in that cohort, and what I was trying to do is when I launched Drunk Business Advice, I launched it without a plan. I just said, I have all of these crazy outrageous stories. I don't know what value these stories add to people's lives, if any. I'm just going to put them out there and whoever resonates with this stuff and likes it and starts subscribing, I'm going to get to know them a little bit. So I would start to talk to the audience and people would respond to the emails, and I would get to know them through surveys and whatnot, and the number one thing people reached out to me asking about was, how can I write this? I feel like I have stories about my life that I want to present in a way that's not boring. (11:26): It's not like LinkedIn ickiness. It's like cool storytelling, and that was the thing that people wanted to know is like, Hey, how do I write you? And my goal with Drunk Business Advice was always to learn about that audience, let them tell me what they want and then develop products that will solve problems for them. So I thought, easy, this is great. I can teach people what my writing method is, but I wanted to do it in a way that was first all. I had no idea if the way that I taught or if I could teach it or if it even worked. I knew that it worked for me, but I'd never developed this curriculum and tried it out on other people. So I didn't want to just launch a Think If course and put curriculum out there and hope that people navigated through it in the right way. (12:10): I wanted to do it one-to-one with a small cohort, getting people in so that if shit's not really landing, I can help. I can say, oh, well this didn't work. Let's try this. And so Ernie and a few other people were kind of those brave souls who ventured into it the very first time, and I am going to do another cohort hopefully in the next couple of months, but it was sort of my first experiment with trying writing curriculum out on them so that now I have a newsletter as well called Drunk Writing Advice that goes out Jared Correia (12:41): With a bunch of newsletter Kristin Kenzy (12:42): Bunch of people. Jared Correia (12:42): Hell Kristin Kenzy (12:42): Yeah. It's basically all the shit that we discovered in Rebel Scribes, the curriculum, the techniques, the exercises, the methods deployed weekly in a newsletter format, and I already know it works because it worked on Ernie. So everyone getting drug writing advice is getting that because Ernie was the test dummy who came in and I tried all this shit out with him and a few other people initially. So that's what Rebel scribes is. Jared Correia (13:06): I'm sure he is laughing his ass off right now. Kristin Kenzy (13:08): I think he's listening. I mean, let's make sure that he's listening to this. Jared Correia (13:11): Arnie, if you don't listen, I'm going to be pissed off. Kristin Kenzy (13:14): Oh my gosh. You're not our friend anymore. Jared Correia (13:15): Yes. So I won't ask you how you write because that's unfair. Subscribe to the fucking newsletter, right? It's free, right? The newsletter's free or no? Kristin Kenzy (13:22): Well, drunk Writing Advice is not free. So drunk writing advice, free for Jared Correia (13:26): Writing advice, don't be a loser. Kristin Kenzy (13:27): Pay for Drunk Riding Advice. It's super cheap, and trust me, it's worth it. Drunk Business Advice is free though. Jared Correia (13:33): Beautiful. I feel like there are probably people out there who are lawyers and hate themselves and are like, shit, I can just tell bullshit stories about my life and that can be my business. Kristin Kenzy (13:44): It can, Jared Correia (13:44): But it's not that easy. It can't be that Kristin Kenzy (13:47): Easy. It's definitely not that easy. So I had never started a media company before, and that's what it is. It's a media company. My background's actually in commercial real estate development, so very, very different industry. Jared Correia (13:58): Little bit slightly, slightly different, Kristin Kenzy (14:00): Slightly different. But I think like many people, I mean lawyers go through this, anyone who has I think a high pressure career where their success relies on their ability to execute at a really high level, gets to a point where they execute and execute and execute and execute, and they say, fuck this. I've earned the right to stop executing and start talking about the shit I've done. There is value in me teaching this and me reliving this and me sharing these experiences with the world. And that's kind of what it was for me. I was standing in the middle of a job site just right around the corner from me five blocks away at Rockefeller Center. So I was doing a redevelopment at Rockefeller Center, and I realized that I hadn't seen my husband in weeks, and I live five blocks away from this job site, but I was person that stood in the middle of the job site with a hard hat on that problems bounced off of, right? I was the person that was, Jared Correia (14:58): You got to wear a hard hat though. So Kristin Kenzy (15:00): That's, tell you what was super badass, was traveling with the hard hat when I'd travel around the country to different job sites and it'd be hanging on the back of my backpack, getting on a flight. Jared Correia (15:08): Nobody's fucking with you when you get a hard hat on your Kristin Kenzy (15:10): Backpack. People are not used to seeing women with a hard hat. I'll say that. That's fair. That sometimes I just travel with it anyway, even though I don't do that anymore just because I like the attention. But yeah, so I think that for lawyers or for anyone who has had a successful career, everyone has really interesting mistake driven lessons to share. When you turn your head and you look at your fuck ups, most of the time you think, okay, well that was a screw up. I don't want to talk about that. I don't want to promote that. But when enough time has passed between the fuck up and now there's an incredible mistake driven lesson in there, and that's where you can intersect entertainment with really helpful value driven stories that can spin out into a media business with enough audience, you can start selling sponsorships and ads. (16:04): That is one monetization method, or in my case, I've done that, but also I've started to really get to know my audience and have developed some products and services to best serve them. So you have to be patient to do it for sure. You can't go into it thinking you're going to make as much as you were making in whatever your career was, just starting a media business from scratch. You have to really get to know what your value prop is and what lands with your audience, but it's a far better lifestyle. I can work from my laptop, I can throw my computer in a backpack and head off to Spain for three months Jared Correia (16:38): With your hard hat. Don't forget Kristin Kenzy (16:39): How hard hat with my hard hat. I mean, I don't want to leave that. You never know when you're going to need that when you're traveling. Jared Correia (16:43): Honestly, I feel like that's true. It's Kristin Kenzy (16:45): A good thing. Jared Correia (16:45): Absolutely. So that was it when you were like, Hey, I haven't seen my husband in weeks. I'm five blocks away. That was when you said that's the founder story. You're like, I'm going to go do something else. Kristin Kenzy (16:58): I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew that I couldn't sustain that lifestyle anymore and that you sort of had to redefine what wealth means to you. Right. Wealth for me at that point in my life was obviously money, which I think that's Jared Correia (17:10): Involved. Wait, is wealth, not money? It's breaking news. Kristin Kenzy (17:13): It was also for me, prestige, right? I wanted the importance of the projects I was working on because when you build things in the real world like buildings, I can point to shit at Rockefeller Center and say, without me, that wouldn't exist. That's pretty cool. That's something that I was really drawn to is working on these very landmark projects, and I was very drawn to that these days. I just really don't care about that. So for me, wealth is having enough money to not have to worry. Obviously you need some level of basic income, Jared Correia (17:47): Having Kristin Kenzy (17:47): Enough money to not have to worry, but flexibility, freedom, laughter, enjoyment of my days. That's what I'm prioritizing right now. Jared Correia (17:57): Let me make a confession to you. I fucking hate business books. They're gone. Awful. So one of the reasons I thought your stuff was interesting was because it's looking at this from a totally different lens. When people ask me what books I've been reading, I'm always like, oh, this 19th century English novel. So isn't there a different way, there's clearly a different way to do this. Other business books you like, or are you just like, this shit is so dry, everybody's saying the same thing, I can't get past it. What I feel like, I feel like your approach is much better. Kristin Kenzy (18:30): Well, I mean, so mine is narrative based, and I think the best business books are narrative based. Jared Correia (18:36): Do you like any business books? Do you have a top five or Kristin Kenzy (18:39): Something? Yeah, Jared Correia (18:40): Interest. No. People always ask me this shit and I never have an answer, so I'm living vicariously through you. Kristin Kenzy (18:45): So Ray Dalio's principles, have you read it? Jared Correia (18:50): Fuck no, I don't read any. I'm not lying. I don't read business books. I hate them. Kristin Kenzy (18:55): So what I like about it more than his business principles, which are interesting, is the first half of it is just his biography. (19:02): And I mean, that's what I enjoy learning. And then another one that I really like is Chris Voss has never split the Difference, and he was an FBI hostage negotiator. And so he tells all these stories about actual real life hostage situations, how they approach the negotiation, and then extracts from that things that can be useful to you if you're negotiating bedtime with your toddler. I think that that's the narrative method that I've approached as well, is that I look at a story, I'm like, that story alone is interesting. That story alone is something that someone would read and probably get some level of entertainment out of, but what I got to do is take it one step further and say, okay, they're going to be surprised with some sort of value at the end. They're going to read the story because it's fun, but then at the end they're going to be like, oh shit, there was a lesson in there that's actually quite poignant and helpful to me as I navigate this chaotic life of mine. And I think that the best business books are a lot more narrative driven, a lot more personality driven rather than just 12 steps to become a better salesman or whatever. I don't know. I don't need any, I probably couldn't even name some of the bigger business books that are quite Jared Correia (20:13): Same, Kristin Kenzy (20:13): Obviously methodology oriented as opposed to, no, I lived my life and here's what I learned. And if you can't take anything from it, at least you had got some entertainment. Jared Correia (20:23): Alright, how about a non-business book category? I'll give you some time to think about this. I'm reading. Oh, already go. Kristin Kenzy (20:30): Oh, well, I have my favorite novel of all time, which is interestingly kind of a business book, Jared Correia (20:34): But Kristin Kenzy (20:34): It's a novel. It's a turn of the century novel called Ragtime by El tro. Jared Correia (20:40): I've never read that one. Kristin Kenzy (20:41): It's based on New York Starts in 1906, New York City, and it's the Industrial Revolution and it tells the most incredible story of a Jewish immigrant family, a black family in Harlem and then in New Rochelle, a very upper class white family. And how the three of those families all kind of intertwine in each other's lives, and then there's real characters in it. JP Morgan is in it, Henry Ford is in it. Harry Houdini is in it. And so it really takes that incredible turn of the century innovation and really cool culture of the melting pot of America and tells a brilliant story. It's my favorite book of all time. Don't watch the movie. The movie is terrible. I was going to say they made a movie in the seventies and Jared Correia (21:23): It was Kristin Kenzy (21:23): Awful. Jared Correia (21:24): I think I may have seen the movie. Kristin Kenzy (21:26): The movie is God awful. Don't give it any. I don't know why Ile doctoral approved it, but they do have, and I don't know if this is thing or not, Jared Correia (21:34): Probably Cash. Kristin Kenzy (21:37): I mean, I wouldn't blame them, but they have a Broadway musical too, Jared Correia (21:41): So Kristin Kenzy (21:41): They, I'm not, they turned into a Broadway and it's not for everybody, but the novel is incredible. It's my favorite book of all time. Jared Correia (21:48): I like how you sussed out. I hate musicals and Kristin Kenzy (21:51): Photographer 15, 15 minutes. Jared Correia (21:54): That guy, an asshole. Kristin Kenzy (21:55): I don't think going to be seeing you in the front row at Kinky Boots. I don't think that's happening. Jared Correia (21:59): Don't even know what that is. Okay. But I don't want to leave people hanging. I will say what I'm reading now, I'm looking at it right now. David McCullough 1776. Kristin Kenzy (22:09): Yeah, of course they Jared Correia (22:10): For no particular Kristin Kenzy (22:10): Reason. Broadway musical too, I love does know that all McCullough's stuff piss Jared Correia (22:14): Really good. Yeah, Kristin Kenzy (22:16): 1776 is probably his best and has been replicated in movies and musicals and stuff. But his John Adams might be the most incredible history of that man and his relationships. And HBO, I guess about 15 years ago. Yeah, Jared Correia (22:34): With Paul Giani Kristin Kenzy (22:35): Did the series with Paul Giani and yeah, it's incredible. Jared Correia (22:39): I'm going to zag. My favorite book of McCullough's is the Truman Biography. Kristin Kenzy (22:44): I haven't read that one. Jared Correia (22:45): That one's fucking great. Truman. He was a character. He said some shit. Let me ask you, I just want to give people a sense of what you're throwing out there. So I was also on LinkedIn today because as everyone knows, I heavily research these podcasts. So I was like, what's Kristin's latest post on LinkedIn? And it was apparently some dude trying to convince you to be a sex toy salesman. Kristin Kenzy (23:15): Well, okay, what's up with that? So this is Jared Correia (23:21): Now, this is not ground's new for us. Kristin Kenzy (23:23): You set that up punchline first. So now I got to go into the story. You should have just let me tell the story because now everyone's going to be thinking about sex toys, but that is not what this story is about as Jared Correia (23:36): If you aren't already. Kristin Kenzy (23:39): So you know what this was is about a decade ago, my husband and I moved to the suburbs. So we're New Yorkers. Jared Correia (23:46): That was your city Kristin Kenzy (23:47): People. That was the first mistake. So we went out to the suburbs because at a certain age you go out to the suburbs and you do the whole family thing or whatever. But we got out there and pretty quickly realized for many reasons that I won't get into that we didn't want to have kids. We thought we wanted to have kids. We got out there and went, oh, screw this. Now Jared Correia (24:07): We're Kristin Kenzy (24:08): Why Jared Correia (24:08): Choice? I don't think they're listening. Wise choice. Kristin Kenzy (24:13): So all of a sudden we were stuck in the suburbs. Well, I say stuck. We were stuck by our own. It's Jared Correia (24:18): Okay. Kristin Kenzy (24:19): We chose, we can Jared Correia (24:20): Trash the suburbs here. It's Kristin Kenzy (24:21): Fine. So we were out there and of course everyone's wondering when you're having kids and all of that. So combine that with, when I first got out to the suburbs, I thought, wow, these people are so friendly. I was getting invited to all kinds of parties and coffee dates and happy hours and everyone I met. What I didn't realize is that all of those invitations were just thinly veiled attempts to recruit me into whatever pyramid scheme Jared Correia (24:46): Was Kristin Kenzy (24:47): Most fashionable that week, which is not something I ever experienced in the city. I had some, it's Jared Correia (24:55): Not happening in the city. Kristin Kenzy (24:56): It doesn't happen in the city. And people weren't even like the chicks that bullied me in high school weren't DMing me on Facebook trying to sell me essential oils. That just wasn't happening. But the second I got to the suburbs, it was like it took me on a wave and I had honestly never paid any mind to those pyramid scheme LMLM things before, Jared Correia (25:17): But Kristin Kenzy (25:17): It became just such a huge part of the culture immediately. And so that's the starting place for this story, which is I'm at the clubhouse. We were in this swanky suburb that had, its a couple of golf courses and a nice clubhouse and we're in there one day, it was right after a HOA meeting actually, and sitting next to the guy, this neighbor, and he's asking if we have children. And I say, no, and I never mind that question. I think that that's a totally fair innocent question and I never mind it. But when I say Jared Correia (25:45): No, you don't want to venture into dickhead territory after that. Right? Kristin Kenzy (25:48): Well, when you say no, that doesn't invite follow up questions, that's the end of it. No, I don't have kids. Let's move on to the next topic. But he was pushing and really asking why, and I just didn't want to get into it with him. It's personal. So weird. It's not any of his business. So I lied and I said, well, I'm just focused on my career right now, but maybe we could just shift the conversation to work or whatever. Let's get off this topic. And he says, so what do you do? Sell sex toys. Jared Correia (26:22): That is so random and weird. Kristin Kenzy (26:24): Well, the reason he asked was because he wanted to tell me about how his wife has had this incredibly lucrative career. Jared Correia (26:34): It's the pitch Kristin Kenzy (26:35): Selling sex toys as there's an actual sex toy pyramid scheme. It's called Pure Romance. I think it is interesting. Don't sue me if it's not that, but it's a sex toy pyramid scheme. And he was trying to recruit, Jared Correia (26:49): I'm excited that I'm not familiar with this, Kristin Kenzy (26:52): Into his wife's downline, right? He was like, okay, well you obviously are in the wrong career if it's making you two busy to have kids. Look at this work-life balance. My wife has. You should go join her company and sell sex toys. And then he pulled me aside for the kicker, which was, then there was the warning, meaning you have to quit your career and join my wife's sex toy pyramid scheme right now. Because if you wait too much longer to have kids, they're going to come out retarded. Jared Correia (27:22): Whoa, there's a whole going on there. Said those words. Yeah, whole lot going on there. Kristin Kenzy (27:29): So you're right. That was my last LinkedIn post. Jared Correia (27:32): Wait, was this Elon Musk? Kristin Kenzy (27:39): Oh no, I love that way. Sit there. It does sound like something that he would've been tweeted at some point. Oh God, help us. Jared Correia (27:46): I got one more question for you Kristin Kenzy (27:48): For Jared Correia (27:48): This section. What you said before is interesting that you were like, okay, I was too busy, I had to stop. I think a lot of people come to that realization, but then they never stop. So logistically, what was the next thing you did to be like, alright, I'm going to stop and do this different thing. What was the first step you took to get over the hump? Kristin Kenzy (28:11): So the first step I took was probably not something I had advised people do, which I joined a startup as COO. Was it Theranos? It was literally called tios. I'm not even kidding. That was the name. TIR. iOS. iOS. It was a PropTech startup, and this was, I had Angel invested in this startup. A friend of mine had launched and he asked me to, it was a pre-product angel investment and the product was ready and he needed a COO. And so that was my transition from I thought, but I could work from home and our team was global. That was the other thing is we had people all over the world and I was like, okay, this is something that I could do from home. This is interesting. It's tech. It's different. It's still in the real estate industry. Jared Correia (29:07): Yeah, Kristin Kenzy (29:08): That sense. I did that. Yeah, it made sense as a natural next step, but Lord, if you want to slow down, don't join a precinct startup. Right? My God. And all of a sudden, Jared Correia (29:19): Had you worked in a startup before, or No, Kristin Kenzy (29:21): Not in that way. So not a tech startup. So a good portion of my career had been in entrepreneurship and starting up other small brick and mortar type businesses, but this was a new, we were burning cash. We had a runway to our series A. If we couldn't get traction by a certain amount of time, we were dead in the water. I mean, it was that kind of environment Jared Correia (29:41): And Kristin Kenzy (29:42): Was quite literally the worst thing that I could have done for any sort of work-life balance or, but what that did do is it got me exposed to marketing, it got me exposed to content marketing, to writing, to editorial. It opened a door. I didn't get through that door, but I could see through it a little bit. And then I took another few steps before I was fully through it. But yeah, that's what I did. Unfortunately Jared Correia (30:07): Point probably not the best move. Well, but to your point, you jumped in. It was kind of immersive. I dunno, I don't think, I mean, call it a mistake. Sure. But you iterated on it and then you did the next thing. That's cool. Kristin Kenzy (30:18): Mistakes. Jared Correia (30:18): It takes a lot of gusts to do that. Honestly, Kristin Kenzy (30:20): Mistakes are, you learn from 'em, right? So there are no bad mistakes. I mean, I would say a bad mistake. I actually wrote an issue of drunk business advice about this, which you're like blunders, blunders suck. Blunders are things where you should have known better. You did know better, but you did something wrong. Right? There are the embarrassing things that really stick with you as you're trying to fall asleep at night. Blunders, those are shit. Yeah, those are awful. But mistakes where you learn and you move forward in your life. As long as you're at least somewhat happy with where you are right now. You can't be too mad at your mistakes because they got you to where you are Jared Correia (30:56): Right now. There's some guy in the suburbs of New York being like, fuck, I should have soft pedaled the sex toy thing. I went in too quick. Kristin Kenzy (31:03): Oh, he's definitely not listening to this podcast. Jared Correia (31:06): Let's hope not. Kristin, will you hang around for another segment? Kristin Kenzy (31:11): Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Jared Correia (31:13): It's mostly Sex toy free. We'll be right back. Kristin Kenzy (31:16): Well then nevermind. Jared Correia (31:23): Welcome back, everybody. That's right. It's Time for the Counter program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Welcome back, Kristin. Thanks for sticking this out. Kristin Kenzy (31:42): It's been fun so far. I'm excited to see what you've got in store for me here. Jared Correia (31:46): Hopefully it will remain fun. Okay. I'm calling this segment Drunken Shenanigans advice, which is sort of a play on what you do in your day job. Alright, so hear me out. The concept is simple. I will relate a tale of celebrity drunkenness, excuse me, an alleged tale of celebrity drunkenness, which is probably true. And all you have to do is guess the purported perpetrator. I was so close. You can guess outright, or I can give you multiple choice. Whenever you're ready, I can begin. Kristin Kenzy (32:18): Oh gosh, yes. Let's get it done. Jared Correia (32:21): Okay, I'll read the description. Let me know if you want some choices. This actress once puked on Madonna's porch during the exclusive party turning around, she saw a disapproving Miley Cyrus who told her to get it together. It's pretty bad when my eyes is like, get your shit together. Would you like multiple choice that comes to mind? Kristin Kenzy (32:48): There's one name that comes to mind and that's Lindsay Lohan. Jared Correia (32:51): Oh, Kristin Kenzy (32:52): Good Jared Correia (32:52): Guess. Kristin Kenzy (32:53): Excellent guess. Okay, but it's not Lindsay Lohan. Jared Correia (32:55): No. Kristin Kenzy (32:56): Okay. Give me the choices then. Let's see if I Jared Correia (32:57): Can get it. This was not like, yeah, I don't know if this was a Disney affiliated party. Miley Cyrus and Lindsay Lohan. That would've been interesting. Kristin Kenzy (33:07): Alright. Well, but it was Madonna's house, so I was singing someone who's maybe between with Age, between Madonna and Miley Cyrus. I don't know Jared Correia (33:15): It was Dolly. Pardon? No, I'm just kidding. Here's the list. One of these choices is correct. Was it Anya Taylor Joy, Jennifer Lawrence or Selena Gomez? I'll repeat those if you'd like me to. Kristin Kenzy (33:29): I don't know the first person Jared Correia (33:31): Really. Oh, we'll talk about that in a second. Kristin Kenzy (33:34): Okay. Jared Correia (33:34): Good news. It's not the first person. So I'm giving you a 50% shot here. Jennifer Lawrence, Selena Gomez. Kristin Kenzy (33:43): Oh, well I'm going to say Jennifer Lawrence. Jared Correia (33:45): Yeah. And you're going to be correct. One for one. One for Kristin Kenzy (33:48): One. Okay, good. Well, not really. I guess like a wrong one. First. Jared Correia (33:52): I'll give it to you. I mean, Jennifer Lawrence seems like a cool chick. I could see her Kristin Kenzy (33:55): Doing that. She does. She does. Jared Correia (33:58): She seems very down to earth. Okay. Can we talk about Anya Taylor Joy? You dunno who that is? Kristin Kenzy (34:03): No, who is that Jared Correia (34:05): Actress? She was in the Queen's gambit on Netflix. Oh, she was in? Yes. Kristin Kenzy (34:11): Okay. No, I know exactly who she is. She's wonderful. Jared Correia (34:14): She was in Split. That was her big starting movie with Shalon movie with Jane Voy, Kristin Kenzy (34:23): And then she was in that movie where the chef kills everybody. Jared Correia (34:28): Oh fuck. Spoiler alert. Sorry, everybody. Kristin Kenzy (34:31): Well, it's pretty so very well known. So she was in that too. But she's Jared Correia (34:37): A, I don't know, the movie where the chef kills everyone. What Kristin Kenzy (34:39): Movie is that? Yeah. What's the guy's name from Red Dragon? What's the name of the actor? Jared Correia (34:44): Oh, Jesus. Kristin Kenzy (34:45): I don't know. Alright. But anyway, she's excellent, but I didn't know her name. I'm not very well, we'll see throughout the course of this, whether or not I know any other actors that you talk about, because I'm bad with names. Jared Correia (34:59): Next, a classic of the genre. This actor broke into a neighbor's home, took off all his clothes, folded them neatly, and then passed out on a bed in a child's bedroom inside the house. Want to take a guess? Or do you want some names? This is an older one. It's classic. Kristin Kenzy (35:19): No, I know this because I just saw this somewhere. Jared Correia (35:23): This is a fairly famous story. Kristin Kenzy (35:25): It's a famous story, fairly famous. I have heard this story. I want to say it was Robert Downey Jr. Jared Correia (35:31): Yes, Ironman himself. Kristin Kenzy (35:32): Was it? Okay. Alright. Yes. I do remember this story from him. You're Jared Correia (35:37): Pretty good at this year two for two classic Robert Downey Jr. Pre probably, I don't know, 98 work. Then it went all uphill from there. He's Kristin Kenzy (35:51): A Wonder Boy. Jared Correia (35:52): I got four left year two for two. Try not to fuck it up. Okay. These two musicians hid in a hotel bathroom to evade police when a Grammy's after party got out of hand. To their surprise, Hauser was already hiding behind the bathroom door. Do you want some, Kristin Kenzy (36:18): This would be more modern musicians. Jared Correia (36:21): Yeah, we're going back and forth in time. Kristin Kenzy (36:23): It's Jared Correia (36:23): Like Back to the future Kristin Kenzy (36:25): If how's here, Jared Correia (36:26): Is there? Or some more modern references? I can't think of. Yeah, Kristin Kenzy (36:28): A few musicians. All right. You're going to have to give me some clues on this one. Okay. Jared Correia (36:32): You ready? Kristin Kenzy (36:33): Yeah. Jared Correia (36:33): Taylor Swift and Ed Sheeran, Olivia, Rodrigo and Harry Styles. Sabrina Carpenter and Charlie Po. Kristin Kenzy (36:44): Okay. Jared Correia (36:44): Taylor and Ed. Olivia and Kristin Kenzy (36:45): Harry. I don't know half of those. So I don't think it was Jared Correia (36:48): Taylor and Ed. I only know these names because of my daughter. Shout out to you. Okay. Go. Kristin Kenzy (36:55): So I don't think it was Taylor and Ed. I think Harry Styles seems like someone, so whoever he was with, I'm going to go Olivia Harry style and Olivia Rodrigo. Jared Correia (37:06): Good guess. But it was Taylor Swift and Ed. Kristin Kenzy (37:08): It was Taylor Swift and Ed. Oh Jared Correia (37:11): Man. I know. Not very Taylor Swift like, right? Kristin Kenzy (37:14): That doesn't, yeah, that feels okay. Well, Jared Correia (37:17): She seems kind of buttoned up. Kristin Kenzy (37:20): What was she doing with Ed Shean? They do not seem like Jared Correia (37:23): A pair. Kind of an odd couple. Right? I feel the same way. Are you not on the Sabrina Carpenter train? Kristin Kenzy (37:32): Isn't she the one that just came out with the album where she's on a leash like a dog? Jared Correia (37:37): Yes. Kristin Kenzy (37:38): Yes. Okay. So I know who she is, but I could not name a song. Jared Correia (37:42): I have to say I like Sabrina Carpenter. I'm just going to admit it on the show. Kristin Kenzy (37:46): Her music or her, Jared Correia (37:48): Her music. I legitimately like her music. Kristin Kenzy (37:51): I don't know that I couldn't name a song. I'm sure I've heard it before and bopped along and thought it was good. But I'm again bad at connecting Jared Correia (37:59): Names and she's got kind of an eighties sound, which is why I Kristin Kenzy (38:02): Like her. So Jared Correia (38:03): Her music is actually, and I think she works with Jack Antonoff now, who's like too producer. I'm so hip. Okay, three more. Okay. In 1982, after an argument with his wife, this singer went out on the town in San Antonio and eventually found his way to the Alamo and pissed on him, resulting in a 10 year ban from the city. Kristin Kenzy (38:27): Wait, did you say he was an actor? Jared Correia (38:29): Musician? Kristin Kenzy (38:30): No musician who peed on the Alamo. Jared Correia (38:33): Yeah. Kristin Kenzy (38:34): And Jared Correia (38:34): Then was banned for a decade from San Antonio. Kristin Kenzy (38:36): Did he live in San Antonio, a Jared Correia (38:37): Punishment? Kristin Kenzy (38:38): No. So he didn't live in San Antonio, he was just visiting San Antonio, Jared Correia (38:42): Right? Correct. On a tour stop. I can give you some multiple choice. Kristin Kenzy (38:48): Yeah. Let's see. Multiple trays. Jared Correia (38:51): Ozzy Osborne, the Lake, Ozzy Osborne, John Mellencamp or Rick Springfield all noted eighties rockers, which is why I've Kristin Kenzy (39:02): Included them here. Yeah. Well, so the only thing is that Ozzy Osborne is the only one that I know for a fact was married. I don't know. So I'm just going to say Ozzy. That was just the only one that I know had a wife because I don't know if the other ones were over married. Correct. Okay. That was right. Okay. Jared Correia (39:17): Sharon would've been very upset about that. Kristin Kenzy (39:19): Yeah, I think she would've had it chuckled though. Jared Correia (39:22): Probably. Probably. Alright, you're three or four. This is really impressive run here. Let me get into the next one. This actor we're back to actors. This actor once got so drunk on set that he stripped completely naked and only responded to people who called him by the name Pappy. He would also often dance naked while yelling at a palm tree. So usual standard behavior maybe for this guy. Was it Al Pacino, Robert De Niro or Marlon Brando? Al Pacino. Kristin Kenzy (40:00): Marlon Jared Correia (40:01): Brando. Yeah. Marlon Brando Kristin Kenzy (40:02): Got to be Brando wrote Jared Correia (40:03): Is Psycho. Yeah. All that stuff happened on the island of Dr. Moreau, which was a famously troubled movie production. Kristin Kenzy (40:11): But you know what? I love Brando from Guys and Dolls back when he was really young and handsome, and then he turned into a, and then a street card named Desire and all that. But then he Yes, Jared Correia (40:25): Early Brando Psycho. Yeah. It went off the rails a little bit there near the end. It's ugly. Kristin Kenzy (40:31): Yeah. I'm like, I know that that's not Pacino or De Niro. They can be a little quirky, but they're not naked quirky. Jared Correia (40:38): I went with a Godfather theme on that one. Kristin Kenzy (40:41): Yeah. Jared Correia (40:42): All right. Last one. I said we'd be mostly sex toy free. So this popular band, well, I guess not currently popular. We're not talking about Sabrina Carpenter's band here. This popular band at one time was named after a steam powered dildo in a William s Burroughs novel Kristin Kenzy (41:04): Esteem Powered, Jared Correia (41:07): Which seems aggressive and possibly unnecessary. Kristin Kenzy (41:12): A band that was named after a sex toy. What is a good, I Jared Correia (41:18): Can throw out some multiple choice. You just let me know. Kristin Kenzy (41:22): Well, I mean, yeah, I dunno. Jared Correia (41:27): This was a big thing when I was a kid, but I'm also probably gen, although I'm struggling to admit it. Okay, here we go. Was it, and these names are probably all potentially correct. White Snake Steely Dan or Pearl Jam? White Snake Steely Dan or Pearl Jam. Kristin Kenzy (41:51): Oh my God, I don't think it's Pearl Jam. I think Steely Dan maybe. Jared Correia (41:55): Correct. Yes. Crushing it over here. Five of six. As I was researching this a little bit this morning, I was like, I came across an article that said 20 bands named after Dildos, and I was like, I think this is apocryphal. Kristin Kenzy (42:15): That's a treasure trove of just incredibly useful information. Jared Correia (42:19): There's a lot of stuff out there on the internet and apparently in garden parties in the suburbs. Kristin Kenzy (42:27): Oh man. Yeah, they call them passion parties actually, if you want to know the correct vernaculars. Jared Correia (42:33): Is that true? Kristin Kenzy (42:33): That is very true. What is that all about? Why they call it invited to some? Well, because you have to be very passionate if you need to buy a, I don't know, ball separator for your husband. Jared Correia (42:43): Oh my God, Kristin Kenzy (42:44): So many. Jared Correia (42:46): This is all just nightmarish to me. Kristin Kenzy (42:50): I know. Well, why do you think I'm back in New York? Jared Correia (42:52): Yeah, it's like you leave the confines of the city. It's like fucking eyes wide shut out there. Kristin Kenzy (42:58): It really is. It really is. Yeah. Jared Correia (43:00): Stay out of the suburbs, everybody. Kristin, thank you. I had a ball. This was fun. Pun intended. Me too, baby. All right. We'll talk again soon. Hopefully. Take care. Kristin Kenzy (43:08): All right. Thank you so much. This has been a blast. Jared Correia (43:11): Thanks to our guest, Kristin Kenzy of Drunk Business Advice. To learn more about Kristin, visit Kristin Kenzy.com, A-R-I-S-T-I-N two I in Kristin Kenzy, K-E-N-Z-Y-K-E-N-Z-Y. Smush it together. You get Kristin Kenzy.com. That's Kristin Kenzy.com now, because I'll always be a nineties kid who could just whip out his copy of Naked Lunch, literally at any time. But his passion, his true passion is burning CDs. Anyone who would listen, I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlist for every podcast episode that I record where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. This week's playlist is songs about getting drunk. I may have done this one before, but I have no memory of it. Maybe I was drunk when I did it, and it's sponsored by Jack Daniels. Yeah, my friend John Daniels. He's got some extra cash to spare, so that was helpful. Thanks. Join us next time when I perform an Achilles tendon Rupture Repair live on the show. Don't cut back for that. I can't do that. See you next time.