Latest / Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews / Why Holiness Is Not a Checklist or a Ladder but a Lifelong Journey | Matt Chandler

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Why Holiness Is Not a Checklist or a Ladder but a Lifelong Journey | Matt Chandler · Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews

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  Speaker 1: Life audio.
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  Speaker 2: Pastor Chandler, thanks for joining me, oh Man, I was
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  Speaker 2: eager for this one.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
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  Speaker 1: Pastor and author Matt Chandler, who has a new book,
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  Speaker 1: Becoming Why Jesus, The every Day Journey to living a
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  Speaker 1: life of holiness. Of course, you are pastor of the
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  Speaker 1: village church there in Texas. You've said this book is
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  Speaker 1: something you wanted to write for twenty years. Why is
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  Speaker 1: this subject so important to you?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there were a couple of things that
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  Speaker 2: were climbing at once. One. I've been pastoring the same
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  Speaker 2: church for almost a quarter of a century now, and
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  Speaker 2: so was I think I've been able to see, well,
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  Speaker 2: not just in my own story of becoming more like Jesus,
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  Speaker 2: but in the lives of like thousands of every day people,
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  Speaker 2: what it looks like to go through the different seasons
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  Speaker 2: of life, what the Holy Spirit tends to do in
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  Speaker 2: your life.
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  Speaker 3: Over time, and how beautiful that is.
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  Speaker 2: So that was that was one piece of it, Just
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  Speaker 2: getting to watch twenty year olds who were just wild
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  Speaker 2: in the party scene here in Dallas profoundly encounter Jesus
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  Speaker 2: and then get married and then have kids. Some lost kids,
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  Speaker 2: some didn't, some ended up being getting divorced, some struggled
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  Speaker 2: with addiction, and some were just good church folk and
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  Speaker 2: watching what the Holy Spirit did over time in all
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  Speaker 2: those different scenarios. So that was certainly a piece. The
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  Speaker 2: other piece was there is a I can't quite still
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  Speaker 2: looking for the language around where I think it's got
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  Speaker 2: to be just a lie from the enemy, that following
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  Speaker 2: Jesus is this up into the right experience where once
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  Speaker 2: you give your life to Jesus, there's no more doubt,
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  Speaker 2: there's no more struggle. It's like this light switch kind
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  Speaker 2: of moment where you don't end up with a personal
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  Speaker 2: Lord and savior, you end up with a genie in
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  Speaker 2: a bottle that you're expecting to make all your dreams
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  Speaker 2: come true. And then the disorientation that befalls many evangelicals
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  Speaker 2: in a difficult season or in a season of disorientation
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  Speaker 2: or discombobulation, where then they might deconstruct and say that
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  Speaker 2: it didn't work for them, and that I'm wondering, like,
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  Speaker 2: what gospel was preached to you? What did you think
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  Speaker 2: you were going to get? Did no one ever show
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  Speaker 2: you where Jesus said in this world you will have trouble,
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  Speaker 2: but take heart. I have overcome the world. And so
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  Speaker 2: I think those two things were kind of slamming into
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  Speaker 2: one another. My longevity here and then now I'm fifty
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  Speaker 2: one now and so and I've endured. I mean, I
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  Speaker 2: had a terminal cancer diagnosis. I had seven years of
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  Speaker 2: a very difficult marriage. I've been betrayed internally externally. I've
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  Speaker 2: just experienced enough and far enough away from some of
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  Speaker 2: that sorrow to see the good work of God in
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  Speaker 2: it at the time. Couldn't have seen it at the time,
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  Speaker 2: didn't enjoy it at the time. Wasn't like, Oh, God
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  Speaker 2: must be doing a deeper work in me. At the time,
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  Speaker 2: I was with David when he said, how long, O Lord,
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  Speaker 2: will you forsake me? Will you forsake me forever?
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  Speaker 3: I was with.
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  Speaker 2: Jeremiah, who said, I you deceived me, And I was deceived.
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  Speaker 3: That's where I was. But now, all.
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  Speaker 2: These years later, I can look back on some of
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  Speaker 2: that and go, oh, no, no, no, he was right there
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  Speaker 2: doing a deeper work in me. And so that's all
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  Speaker 2: the stuff that was in the room, and it finally
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  Speaker 2: felt time to write this book.
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  Speaker 1: Of course, this is we're dealing with the Biblical document
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  Speaker 1: sanctification as what we're talking about. You call it progressive sanctification.
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  Speaker 1: Help us understand that concept. What do you mean by progressive?
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  Speaker 1: So sanctificationsive is just the idea that this is going
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  Speaker 1: to take time.
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  Speaker 2: That sanctification isn't a light switch. It's not going to
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  Speaker 2: happen over overnight. It is a lifelong journey. So this
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  Speaker 2: is where, like I wish biblical literacy was higher among
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  Speaker 2: a lot of evangelicals.
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  Speaker 3: So when they.
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  Speaker 2: Quote he who began the good work in you will
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  Speaker 2: be faithful to complete it. Well, that's not the entire verse, right.
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  Speaker 2: It goes on to say at the day of the Lord,
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  Speaker 2: So I am in progress. I am a work in
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  Speaker 2: progress from I would argue before I became a Christian,
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  Speaker 2: all the way until I breathe my last or Christ returns.
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  Speaker 3: And so to expect that in any given.
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  Speaker 2: Moment on that long journey home, that I am a
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  Speaker 2: perfect kind of finished product is actually setting me up
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  Speaker 2: for a great deal of disappointment and disorientation when I struggle,
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  Speaker 2: when I stumble, when I fall, when I make a mistake,
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  Speaker 2: when I'm not the husband I should be, or the
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  Speaker 2: father I should be, or the pastor I should be,
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  Speaker 2: or fill.
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  Speaker 3: In the blank.
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  Speaker 1: You I draw from jesus teaching and the beatitudes in
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  Speaker 1: this book, why start there?
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  Speaker 3: Wh focus on that? Well?
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  Speaker 2: So if it's not up and to the right, what
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  Speaker 2: is it? And so I'm making the argument in the
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  Speaker 2: book that it's like a coil laid horizontally where every
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  Speaker 2: high and low is still moving you forward. So even
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  Speaker 2: in your disorientation, doubt, or discombobulation, the dark knight of
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  Speaker 2: the soul call it what you want, God is still
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  Speaker 2: at work. You're still moving forward, even what it feels
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  Speaker 2: like to.
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  Speaker 3: You big you're stuck. So that's how.
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  Speaker 2: And then I wanted to be real specific. I don't
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  Speaker 2: want it to be nebulous so great, What does it
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  Speaker 2: look like to become more like Jesus? What were we
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  Speaker 2: actually talking about? So embedded the book in Matthew five
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  Speaker 2: and wanted to say, hey, Jesus didn't come to find
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  Speaker 2: these people. There aren't these perfect beatitude people out there,
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  Speaker 2: and those are the ones he loves. No, He's come
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  Speaker 2: to make them. And so you know those who mourn,
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  Speaker 2: those who are humble, those who are meek, those who
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  Speaker 2: are peacekeepers, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, those
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  Speaker 2: like the spirit is doing that work in us, and
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  Speaker 2: that work is accomplished over time and in community, and
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  Speaker 2: that work is deep work. It's not surface level work.
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  Speaker 2: There is no spiritual bypass, there is no silver bullet.
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  Speaker 2: This is a long journey home. That maybe should be
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  Speaker 2: the better title of the book. Just the negative connotation
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  Speaker 2: of the more positive connotation, like you're becoming like Jesus.
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  Speaker 2: And so the beatitudes give us a picture of what
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  Speaker 2: God's accomplishing in us. And the more those things are
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  Speaker 2: formed in us, the more we look and behave and
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  Speaker 2: respond and react like Jesus did. Do you think the
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  Speaker 2: church broadly has of exercise conversion at the costs of
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  Speaker 2: holiness and the Cybersham You would have a hard time
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  Speaker 2: with data or with ancillary experience arguing any other way.
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  Speaker 1: Tell me how that happened and why that happened? Well,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I think gosh. I mean historically, I think
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  Speaker 1: a lot of it was the idea of conversion being
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  Speaker 1: the main goal. But the main goal has never been conversion.
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  Speaker 1: The main goal has always been discipleship. And so I
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  Speaker 1: think the majority.
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  Speaker 2: Of churches put a ton of energy into how do
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  Speaker 2: we get people saved, and put not near enough energy
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  Speaker 2: in the now what and so like, one of the
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  Speaker 2: things I say all the time at the village is, man,
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  Speaker 2: we celebrate baptisms here as better as well as anybody.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, our people shall and yell and give a
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  Speaker 2: standing ovation. We freak out at baptisms. I want to
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  Speaker 2: know where they are three years later, Like, okay, great,
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  Speaker 2: we just baptized some people this Easter. I'm real curious
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  Speaker 2: where are they going to be three years from now?
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  Speaker 2: How are we helping them know what it looks like
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  Speaker 2: to walk with Jesus now? Because he says it's not
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  Speaker 2: just baptized all nations, it's make disciples of all nations.
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  Speaker 2: And so I think that's I think cod if COVID
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  Speaker 2: taught us anything, is that our people are under disciples.
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  Speaker 2: And so I'm hoping that there's going to be more
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  Speaker 2: intentionality placed around that in churches everywhere. Tell me how
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  Speaker 2: holiness and discipleship intertwine. Is holiness of something personal on
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  Speaker 2: Discipleship is something that is done to you?
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  Speaker 3: Is that how?
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  Speaker 2: No, I think discipleship is growth in holiness. Okay, that
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  Speaker 2: I would attach the two and not your I want
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  Speaker 2: to be real careful with that because I'm not trying
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  Speaker 2: to ooch towards legalism. Here, I'm saying that if I've
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  Speaker 2: oriented my life around the presence and power of Jesus,
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  Speaker 2: then over time I am conformed into his image. It's
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  Speaker 2: not so much like the beatitudes. Aren't a checklist or
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  Speaker 2: a ladder I'm trying to climb.
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  Speaker 3: They're a work of.
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  Speaker 2: The spirit in me as I try to close the
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  Speaker 2: distance between me and the world. And so if I
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  Speaker 2: could get real practical, like someone who's in a season,
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  Speaker 2: it's like like I'll use my balm personal season. I
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  Speaker 2: was diagnosed with terminal cancer in two thousand and nine
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  Speaker 2: ana plastic oligodendroglioma who grade three terminal brain cancer, incurable,
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  Speaker 2: two to three years to live, and we're going to
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  Speaker 2: poison you those last two to three years. Had three
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  Speaker 2: small children. I had this church that I was leading.
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  Speaker 2: It was growing seeing people come to know the Lord.
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  Speaker 2: We were serious about disciple making and man when we
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  Speaker 2: got the diagnosis, had a seizure on Thanksgiving morning in
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  Speaker 2: front of my kids and was rushed. Sweet wife called
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  Speaker 2: nine one one Amazon, meet golf ball sized two. We're
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  Speaker 2: in the right frontal lobe. That was the diagnosis and prognosis.
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  Speaker 2: Now it felt to me in that moment let the
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  Speaker 2: floor fell out. I don't know. I mean, I'd been
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  Speaker 2: teaching our church about suffering.
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  Speaker 3: We were a young church.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't do the funeral of a seven year old
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  Speaker 2: faithful man until I been here a decade. I was
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  Speaker 2: doing a lot of six year olds, twenty eight year olds,
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  Speaker 2: twenty six year olds, fifteen year olds. It was a
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  Speaker 2: brutal season of pastoral ministry, heartbreaking. And the floor fell
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  Speaker 2: out from under me. And I had two choices in
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  Speaker 2: that moment. I could, with that disorientation create space from God.
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  Speaker 2: I could take my doubts and my frustrations and my really, God, me,
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  Speaker 2: You're given this to me, not this guy that's a
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  Speaker 2: serial adulterer and a terrible father. That was all in me,
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  Speaker 2: That was all in me. And I could either run
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  Speaker 2: from the Lord and hide that ugliness, or I could
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  Speaker 2: move towards the Lord with the ugliness and be honest
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  Speaker 2: about it. And it's in that which I call in
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  Speaker 2: the book, I talk about that like confession. The confession
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  Speaker 2: is not just telling God, here's my sin, although it
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  Speaker 2: is that confession is just telling God the truth. And
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  Speaker 2: so a mark of intimacy and growth and I would argue,
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  Speaker 2: Holy is for me to take my heart before the Lord.
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  Speaker 2: So this is blessed or the pure and art. I'm
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  Speaker 2: just preaching that chapter right now that my heart is
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  Speaker 2: not perfect, but it is pure. And so you start
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  Speaker 2: praying like guys do in the Bible where Jeremiah says,
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  Speaker 2: you deceived me and I was deceived. Now, Jeremiah could
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  Speaker 2: have taken that another place. He never had to say
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  Speaker 2: that to the Lord, but it was in his heart.
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  Speaker 2: So if blessed are the pure in heart, for they
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  Speaker 2: will see God. Who got to see God? Jeremiah who
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  Speaker 2: said it, you deceived me and I was deceived? Or David,
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  Speaker 2: how long the Lord will you forsake me? Will you
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  Speaker 2: forsake me forever? Like those are honest prayers about the
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  Speaker 2: states of their the states of their hearts. That I
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  Speaker 2: shouled them into intimacy with Jesus, into the presence of God, rather.
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  Speaker 3: Than creating distance.
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  Speaker 2: Because I know I shouldn't think like that, so I
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  Speaker 2: feel ashamed. So let me create distance from God. And
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  Speaker 2: so that to me, to me is the magic sauce.
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  Speaker 2: It's believing that the Gospel's true in my sanctification, that
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  Speaker 2: Jesus knew what he was buying on the cross, But
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  Speaker 2: he's not looking at me right now with the furrowed brow.
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  Speaker 2: Can't believe this is where I am. I can't believe
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  Speaker 2: this is where I am, as in I thought I
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  Speaker 2: would be farther along.
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  Speaker 3: I have not surprised Jesus with how slow this is taken.
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  Speaker 1: Many people hear holiness and they think about rules perfection.
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  Speaker 1: They don't like that word. How do you help someone
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  Speaker 1: understand it biblically?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I would go to Blessed are those who
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  Speaker 2: hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
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  Speaker 2: So righteousness isn't about legal standing. It's about right relatedness.
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  Speaker 2: And so blessed are the ones who hunger and thirst
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  Speaker 2: for right relatedness between themselves and God, between themselves and themselves,
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  Speaker 2: and between themselves and others. And so holiness is a
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  Speaker 2: byproduct of being in the presence and power of God.
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  Speaker 2: That's where you're going to become holy because Jesus, and
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  Speaker 2: if we could move past the beatitudes and get into
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  Speaker 2: the rest of the sermon on the Mount, what Jesus
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  Speaker 2: wants is you. That's what he's after, all of you, mind, body,
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  Speaker 2: and soul. And so you don't get holy by white
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  Speaker 2: knuckle discipline. You get holy by submitting yourself to the
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  Speaker 2: beauty and reality of Jesus in everyday life. And the
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  Speaker 2: more you strive for holiness, the less chance of holiness
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  Speaker 2: you get. This is Jesus's whole point to the Pharisees,
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  Speaker 2: where he says, you have heard it said, and he
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  Speaker 2: gives them the external moral holiness. Right, do not hate
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  Speaker 2: or do not murder. But I say, if your heart's
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  Speaker 2: al to it, you're full of rage in your heart.
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  Speaker 3: You're still guilty. You're not free.
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  Speaker 2: It is like the alcoholic that never is never actually free.
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  Speaker 2: They're just always managing the addiction. So there might be
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  Speaker 2: something to be said for that, But I don't know
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  Speaker 2: that we're calling that holiness like holiness is not just
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  Speaker 2: this external moral state. It's what Jesus turns us into
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  Speaker 2: over time by moving back into his presence with everything,
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  Speaker 2: because that's what Jesus is after my audience, soul, all
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  Speaker 2: of it. Only one's going to make that offer.
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  Speaker 1: When I hit the subject, I tend to look at
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  Speaker 1: the culture, and our culturist has grown more divisive, less loving,
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  Speaker 1: less peaceful in recent years. Yeah, did that have anything
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  Speaker 1: to do with you wanting to write about this subject
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  Speaker 1: now or is that just totally unrelated?
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  Speaker 2: Oh?
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  Speaker 3: Man, I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: There's probably other things I want to say to the
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  Speaker 2: prevailing culture. But it's certainly there were two chapters in
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  Speaker 2: particular where I could feel the weight of that, a
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  Speaker 2: chapter on mercy and the chapter on peace making, not peacekeeping, peacemaking,
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  Speaker 2: and how risky that is in this season, and how
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  Speaker 2: scary that is, and yet Jesus doesn't shy away from it.
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  Speaker 1: Good co Ben, How would you describe biblical humility that's
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  Speaker 1: kind of a related topic here into what we're talking
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  Speaker 1: about in terms of the culture, especially in contrast to
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  Speaker 1: our culture.
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  Speaker 2: At what is biblical humility? Well, so there's two different
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  Speaker 2: ways that the Beatitudes address humility. That the first would
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  Speaker 2: be in be at the first beatitude poor in spirit,
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  Speaker 2: that we come to God beggarly, like we're not bringing
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  Speaker 2: things to God to fulfill him, like we're coming empty handed.
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  Speaker 2: We have nothing by which we can operate that would
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  Speaker 2: move us to that life life that Jesus promises in
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  Speaker 2: John ten ten. So humility is an acknowledgement of our
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  Speaker 2: own weakness, an acknowledgement of our own powerlessness. That would
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  Speaker 2: be the first way that the Beatitudes talk about humility
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  Speaker 2: humility before God, you are God, I am not you know,
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  Speaker 2: I do not. You see I do not, So that
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  Speaker 2: would be one layer. And he also begins to address meekness,
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  Speaker 2: which is a different form of humility, that strength control.
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  Speaker 2: That's more horizontal humility, whereas blessed or the poor in
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  Speaker 2: spirit is kind of your vertical humility. Your God, I'm
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  Speaker 2: not Meekness is power under control. That what you have
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  Speaker 2: given me in regards to intellect, personality, opportunity.
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  Speaker 3: Position.
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  Speaker 2: That's been given to me not to flex on the
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  Speaker 2: horizontal plane, but to serve and love on the horizontal plane.
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  Speaker 2: And so those are the two dances of formation or
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  Speaker 2: sanctification in the Beatitudes. It's two things the spirit will
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  Speaker 2: do in us over time. You mentioned your health battle earlier,
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  Speaker 2: and give us anothering on your health.
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  Speaker 3: Oh how are you doing.
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  Speaker 2: I've still got to go it's apparently incurable, even though
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  Speaker 2: it's been it'll be seventeen years this fall, so I
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  Speaker 2: still have to go in once a year to get
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  Speaker 2: a scan. But even though I'm collogist, is like something
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  Speaker 2: else will kill you before this does. Now and she's
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  Speaker 2: probably right. How do you want this.
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  Speaker 1: Book to impact our readers? Give us your overall for this.
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  Speaker 3: It's what I so want for you.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, if you're listening to this, I just so
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  Speaker 2: want for you to understand the power of the Gospel
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  Speaker 2: in your sanctification. Like the people I serve here, they're
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  Speaker 2: just and there. It's done just them. It's in my travels,
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  Speaker 2: it's through the churches that I've held plant through Act
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  Speaker 2: twenty nine. Like evangelicals have this like just this kind
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  Speaker 2: of it's like hatred of where they are and where
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  Speaker 2: they are with the Lord, and they're they're the worst
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  Speaker 2: moms and the worst dads, and the worst Christians and
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  Speaker 2: the worst and I just want like that's how I
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  Speaker 2: started the book. I started the book with the reminder
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  Speaker 2: that Jesus wants all of you mind, body, and so
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  Speaker 2: Jesus knew what he was buying on the cross, and
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  Speaker 2: this is a process he knows about. This is a
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  Speaker 2: lifelong process. So you become like Jesus with deep work
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  Speaker 2: for over time in community, and so you position yourselves
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  Speaker 2: under those waterfalls and the Lord is patiently transforming you.
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  Speaker 2: He's not the one like you should be as gracious
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  Speaker 2: to you as He's been to you, because you're gonna
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  Speaker 2: make mistakes. I'm gonna make mistakes. We're human, He's not.
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  Speaker 2: We are, And so to let God do his work
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  Speaker 2: and you and just see hardship, failure, suffering as an
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  Speaker 2: opportunity for the Spirit to shape you more into the
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: image of Jesus. Is the joy on the journey of
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: becoming more like Jesus.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Perhaps this is the final question for your pastor. You
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: are a pastor of a prominent church there in Texas's
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: many many Christian leaders nationwide are seeing a movement of
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: God across our country broadly, but also specifically within gen
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Z College campuses. What have you seen in your church
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: community related to any of that. Yeah, there's no question,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure I've seen the same thing you are.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: We are in the middle of something. I hope it's
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: the beginning, not the middles. The last three years here
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: have been just marked by supernatural activity. Like a pastor
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: friend of mine, his own staff here with me, one
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: of the elders. He said, like, right now, it just
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: feels like the fruit is falling off the tree into
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: the basket.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: That we're not even having to pick it. And it's
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: just falling in.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: The basket where we laid the basket.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: And so we have been saying.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: For the last three years that we've got a lot
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: of wood but no fire. We've got a pretty big
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: sale but no wind, and really asking the Holy Spirit
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: to do here what he seems to be doing, not
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: just in the US, but really globally right now, all
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: sorts of amazing things happening in the UK and Australia,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: And so I just started making the appeal with several
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: other pastors here. We don't want to watch this on YouTube.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: We don't want to watch if we're at the beginning
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: of some awakening, if we're at the beginning of some revival,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: we don't want to watch it play out on YouTube.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: We want to avail ourselves to the Lord and ask
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: him to do it here. And He has honored that
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: prayer here in really stunning ways. And so yeah, now
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: we're just now to me, it feels a little like stewardship. Okay,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: how do we stay low but still stand up and
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: move into the space that God's asking us to move into?
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: But record number of baptisms last year, which is saying
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: something at our place unbelievable spiritual hunger and then the
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: kind of radical salvations that make you break out.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: In goosebumps among all ages? Are we talking about specific
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: age that it? Yeah, it's been among all ages now.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Certainly our students and young adults have kind of led
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: the charge in it, but it's not it is spread.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: My good friend Jenny Allen, Jonathan Pekluda, some of these
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: guys that are on the forefront of this college campus thing.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: The big question behind closed doors was will this jump
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: into the church? Like we're seeing it all these color
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: but will it jump into the church? And by the
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: grace of God, it seems to be doing just that.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: And so yeah, we're we're humbled and thrilled. We've got
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: a three day sacred assembly coming up later this month
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: where we're just like Jesus is the goal, like, you know,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: a ton of expectations, no agenda, Like, how's it a win?
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: We're asking the Lord to show up in a significant
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: way among us. We've been praying twenty four to seven
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: since I've ober around it. Then we're just gonna seek
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: his face. Terms get debated here. Are you just calling
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: it a movement of God and letting God. I don't
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: know what the metric would be for us to start
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: using the word revival, it's certainly something. It's something like
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: no one would have.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Guessed we would be where we are today in twenty
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: twenty You know that, I don't know that i'd have
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: bet on it.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: And I'm an optimist.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: You know, if you'd have told me that in twenty
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: twenty five, gen Z would lead the way in church attendance,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: that Bible sales would be driven by gen Z and
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Jen Alpha and some of the millennials, and that we
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: would be like even like Christian adjacent stuff would be exploded,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: like West huff On Joe Rogan talking about the Bible
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: for two hours, what like all these guys with tons
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: of influence who I think like the Kingdom but have
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: no intention of bowing their need to the King. Like
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: they're becoming like loud speakers about the Kingdom of God
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: to the unbelieving world, And like I just I just
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: don't think you could have seen this coming, like number
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: one shows being about King David or being about the
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: life of Jesus, Like it's everywhere right now, and it's
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: like you can't escape it even if you hate it.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: It's everywhere, and we just wouldn't have guessed that five
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: years ago. Maybe this is my final question, what do
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: you think is driving it? Do you have any I mean,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: God is the driver always, that's the driver, that's the
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: spiritual aids. Well, what would be have watched the death
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: of secularism? I think it crested and crashed and you
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: have a whole generation that watched the generation before them
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: go at it and they're like, no, thank you, no
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: thank you. And so I think secularism is dead. I
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: don't think it's dying. I think it's dead. And so
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: what's gonna take its place? So the reason why I
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: would encourage churches and Christians to really get in the
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: game right now is that the other thing that's on
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: the rise right now is legit old school neo paganism,
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: witchcraft and crystals. And like I live in the suburbs
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: of Dallas and I just had a guy. I was
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: offered to pray for him and he said, hey, we okay,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: but we're gonna be praying to different gods. Okay, say
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: more about that. Well, my wife is a witch and
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: we worship the Irish Celtic god Moro. We have an
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: altar in our house to her, and that's who we
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: pray to. Like, I have never heard anyone like unapologetically,
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: just like white collar successful guy say we're pagans. So
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: that stuff's growing too. Why because secularism is dead. So
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: they're looking for the transcendent and you better believe those
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: principalities and powers. That's an old gain for them. They're
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: just pulling a script out of neopaganism, and so people
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: are going to go towards the new age paganism, demonic
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: stuff if we don't get them to see and marvel
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: at the beauty of Jesus by the grace of God.
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: If you enjoy today's interview, please make sure to describe
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: and share the episode with a friend. A big thanks
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: to the team at Life Audio for their partnership with
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: us on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot
• 24:35
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• 24:39
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• 24:40
  Speaker 2: See you next time.