Latest / Deep Transformation / What We Can Do for Our Brains: Practical Ways to Cultivate Healthy, Agile Minds & Also Reduce the Risk of Dementia

Transcript

What We Can Do for Our Brains: Practical Ways to Cultivate Healthy, Agile Minds & Also Reduce the Risk of Dementia · Deep Transformation

• 0:00
  In this episode, Roger Walsh is the guest and I'm speaking to him about something.
• 0:04
  He's an expert on our aging brains and what we can do to prevent dementia and live long mentally active lives.
• 0:11
  As for normal, Roger is awesome and I think you're going to love this.
• 0:19
  Welcome to Deep Transformation, Self, Society, Spirit, Life Enhancing, Paradigm rattling conversations with climate cutting edge thinkers, contemplatives and activists with Dr.
• 0:30
  Roger Walsh and John Dupuy.
• 0:35
  I'm introducing our guest today because, well, because our guest today is Roger Walsh.
• 0:40
  We're going to be talking about cognitive maintenance and enhancement, especially as we age and what we can do about it.
• 0:47
  What does Roger know about that?
• 0:49
  He's a doctor.
• 0:50
  He doesn't just play one on the podcast.
• 0:51
  A real doctor as well as a psychiatrist and a PhD in neuroscience.
• 0:58
  And he got it at the same time he was in med school.
• 1:01
  Boom.
• 1:03
  He has also won several international awards for brain research and is a member of a research team which first demonstrated neuroplasticity in the aging brain, as well as being a professor of psychiatry at the University of California for
• 1:19
  40 years.
• 1:20
  He has a lot to say and I think this is going to be really helpful.
• 1:24
  It's been inspiring to me to prepare for this.
• 1:27
  So, Roger, I've looked at your notes and I'm very excited about this and I am no longer a spring chicken myself.
• 1:32
  I would say I'm an autumn chicken, maybe.
• 1:34
  So thank you for preparing this and take it away.
• 1:37
  Thank you very much, John.
• 1:39
  Yeah, this whole idea of care and maintenance of the brain or maintaining and hopefully in some cases even enhancing cognitive, which is a fancy word for information processing, but it's kind of research term.
• 1:54
  But maintaining our intellectual capacities, particularly as we age, is a topic which gets more interesting and compelling every year, both because we all keep aging and because the research gets more and more interesting.
• 2:08
  And there's a lot here now, you know, it's interesting, you know, back in probably a lot of us, when we were kids, there weren't a lot of adults exercising.
• 2:18
  And it was just assumed that as part of aging there was a certain degree of inevitable physical decline, loss of muscle mass, reflexes, agility, flexibility, et cetera.
• 2:32
  And yet what we've learned in the last few decades, and what has become evident at a population level is people have taken up more physical activity in adulthood.
• 2:43
  Is that a lot of what we thought of as, quote, normal aging is actually disuse, atrophy, that muscles atrophy when they're not used, that joints, tendons stiffen when they're not flexed.
• 2:58
  And now it's just an accepted part of the cultural wisdom that it really makes sense for all of us to have a regular physical exercise routine of some kind, which ideally includes several components.
• 3:14
  First, aerobic exercise to keep the cardiopulmonary fitness going.
• 3:18
  Second, muscle resistance training, I.e.
• 3:22
  Moving weights, working with weight machines, lifting a flexibility routine of some kind where we're stretching, for which yoga of course can be great.
• 3:33
  And then in addition, some sort of balance activity.
• 3:36
  Because we tend to lose balance skills as we age.
• 3:41
  And for every one of these things, it turns out that if we do the appropriate physical maintenance, then turns out we can retain a degree of muscle mass, flexibility, agility, reflex speed, et cetera.
• 3:58
  That is just much more than was thought possible.
• 4:01
  You know, the mass people who are competing at the master's level.
• 4:05
  I forget what the threshold for that is now.
• 4:07
  I think maybe in the 50s.
• 4:10
  But these are athletes who compete in mid or later life and some of their times and speeds and records are extraordinary.
• 4:18
  So in recent decades we've just gotten a whole new understanding of what's possible in terms of maintaining health and well being and physical function into aging.
• 4:29
  So that's really good news.
• 4:31
  And you know, general principle is, you know, the 20s are basically the last maintenance free decade.
• 4:37
  You got a free ride into your twenties.
• 4:39
  After that you got to start doing some work if you want to maintain yourself in optimal physical shape.
• 4:47
  And now the big revolution is we're beginning to recognize that there something similar is true for the brain and for our intellectual cognitive capacities.
• 4:59
  Again, there was this assumption that, you know, it was just a inevitable loss of mental capacity with aging.
• 5:06
  But the pictures become much more positive in several ways.
• 5:11
  One is that it's very clear that the brain, like the body, is a lose it or use it bargain.
• 5:18
  If we just settle into our routines, if we don't challenge ourselves intellectually, if we don't get adequate stimulation, then yeah, the brain does tend to decline in its processing capacity and speed and so forth.
• 5:37
  On the other hand, and here's really a double good news, turns out that what's good for the body is good for the brain.
• 5:44
  That is the degree we keep ourselves physically fit in all sorts of ways, from diet to exercise, et cetera, that also benefits the brain.
• 5:55
  So the old idea going back to the Greeks, a healthy mind and a healthy body turns out to have a lot going for it.
• 6:02
  But in addition, there are a variety of things we can do for ourselves to maintain our sharpness and our clarity and intellectual capacity and John will go through those.
• 6:16
  But I just also want to throw in one thing that's been an important theme in some of our podcast dialogues, and that is not only have.
• 6:25
  Do we now know that it's possible to maintain intellectual function, memory, et cetera, significantly better than we thought if we really look after our brains and challenge our minds, et cetera, but also we now know that psychological development
• 6:42
  or maturation can continue throughout much of the lifespan.
• 6:47
  So.
• 6:48
  So that at later ages, we can be operating in more kind of like more sophisticated operating systems, able to track bigger pictures, more connections, recognize more nuance, and hold a greater, A more.
• 7:05
  A richer understanding of ourselves and life than we used to.
• 7:09
  So I've said a lot.
• 7:10
  Maybe I'll throw it back to you, John.
• 7:13
  Well, one thing I wanted to point out that you're 80.
• 7:16
  I just turned 70.
• 7:17
  Donald Trump is 80.
• 7:19
  And I would just say, look at the difference between Dr.
• 7:22
  Roger Walsh and our president, who's in deep decline on a daily basis.
• 7:28
  And it's very sad to watch.
• 7:30
  It's very painful, and of course, it's causing all kinds of problems and hurting people all over the world.
• 7:35
  And one main ideas that I took away from the integral movement, Roger, was the idea of integral life practice.
• 7:41
  Okay?
• 7:42
  And I took that and I used that with my.
• 7:44
  My work with addicts.
• 7:45
  And of course, to teach it, you have to do it.
• 7:48
  So I became very dedicated to exercise, meditation, intellectual growth, emotional work, and relational.
• 7:56
  And you put those all together in a lifetime practice.
• 8:00
  It really helps.
• 8:00
  And if you're a younger person listening to this, it's much easier to.
• 8:04
  If you start this right away, you don't wait till you're 65 to start doing these practices.
• 8:09
  Because that's the reason I think I've been able to stay with it is because it was just what I do.
• 8:14
  After a while.
• 8:14
  I practice just.
• 8:15
  I meditate because I meditate.
• 8:17
  I work out because I work out.
• 8:19
  It's just what I do.
• 8:20
  And I think that's a wonderful foundation.
• 8:22
  And of course, your, you know, your exercises will change over time, but they need to be, you know, disciplined and rigorous.
• 8:27
  Rigorous.
• 8:28
  And you need to breathe hard and work up sweat.
• 8:31
  So that's my opening contribution, Roger.
• 8:33
  Okay.
• 8:34
  Yeah.
• 8:35
  And one of the things you're pointing to is that the cultural stereotype of aging really needs to change.
• 8:42
  And we had a wonderful dialogue on here with her gerontologist who introduced the concept of joy span, and her name was Carrie.
• 8:52
  She gave a wonderful dialogue about the possibility of containing positive attitudes and well being.
• 8:57
  Throughout the lifespan.
• 8:58
  Carrie Bernard, wonderful, wonderful gerontologist.
• 9:01
  And she wrote a book by the name of Joyce Banner.
• 9:04
  We had a wonderful interview with her.
• 9:05
  So a general principle was that so much depends on attitude and that one of the things we really need to do is to update the cultural stereotypes of aging, Because a cultural stereotype is not a very positive one.
• 9:19
  It assumes that there'll be some intellectual loss, some narrowing of personality and interest.
• 9:25
  And actually, it's very clear that a lot of the shifts that occur with aging the result of lifestyle choices.
• 9:35
  And there's enormous difference between individuals.
• 9:38
  And, you know, we can do a lot, but we do get the genes we're born with, and so we can't guarantee anything.
• 9:46
  We can't, you know, with our lifestyle and so forth.
• 9:50
  But we can shift the balance.
• 9:52
  There's a wonderful T shirt I saw that said, eat healthy, exercise regularly, die.
• 9:58
  Anyway, there's that to it.
• 10:02
  And we can tip the balance.
• 10:04
  We can definitely do things which make it less likely that we'll die early and make it much more likely that we'll live into a later life in good health with sharp minds and a wonderful joy span.
• 10:17
  So add to that T shirt.
• 10:20
  Die.
• 10:20
  Well, all right.
• 10:22
  You know, you can take this brain and spiritual stuff that we polish and work on into passing through from this body into whatever that is, that mystery that awaits us.
• 10:32
  Yeah, yeah.
• 10:34
  So, general context for our discussion that our brains are much more plastic than we once thought.
• 10:42
  They're not completely plastic, but this whole new concept now of neuroplasticity, which recognizes that the brain is constantly remodeling itself depending on the kind of stimulation and nutritional support, et cetera, it gets.
• 10:58
  And so we have more capacity for maintaining intellectual capacities and developing, say, emotional wisdom and other personality characteristics that we might want significantly more than we thought.
• 11:15
  Again, there are biological limits, but there is also significant plasticity.
• 11:21
  And, Roger, would you say that the brain is analogous to a muscle?
• 11:25
  In other words, you just don't do anything with your muscle.
• 11:27
  You're gonna, you know, you're gonna atrophy, and it's gonna go blank.
• 11:31
  But if you work it, it can keep going a lot.
• 11:33
  Yeah, that's a good metaphor, and it's one that's increasingly used.
• 11:37
  Again, the use it or lose it statement holds for the brain as it does for the body.
• 11:42
  And we can look at the ways with which we can support our brains.
• 11:46
  You know, we all have one, and it's really good to keep it in good shape.
• 11:51
  So I think of this as kind of care and maintenance of the brain.
• 11:54
  And general principles come down to a variety of different things.
• 12:00
  First there's lifestyle choices and then there's diet.
• 12:05
  And here we're getting into the point about what's good for the body is good for the brain.
• 12:09
  Then it's really important to minimize environmental risks like pollution.
• 12:14
  And we'll get into those.
• 12:16
  Then there's the big thing that the multibillion dollar industry, some of it, a little of it valuable, a lot of it questionable, on supplements, they certainly have their place.
• 12:28
  Then there's the question of medical interventions for treating things such as, for example, diabetes, which can be really tough on the brain, not to mention the body, a number of other things.
• 12:42
  And then there's some cutting edge approaches that are quite promising too.
• 12:46
  So would these be smart drugs you're talking about as part of this medical intervention?
• 12:50
  Well, not so much.
• 12:52
  Smart drugs is a kind of pop term.
• 12:55
  It's not very well defined.
• 12:58
  And there are a lot of things out there on the Internet, you know, kind of labeled smart drugs, promising all sorts of things.
• 13:05
  But I would say buyer beware.
• 13:07
  No evidence that you're aware of that they're actually coming out with pharmaceuticals that can help our brains function.
• 13:12
  Well, no, there are things which can definitely help, but we'd want to be a bit more precise about what we really mean by help.
• 13:20
  The idea that you can just pop a pill and get instantly smarter.
• 13:24
  No, wouldn't that be nice?
• 13:26
  Unfortunately, believe me, I'd be taking them if they worked.
• 13:30
  But no.
• 13:32
  So.
• 13:33
  But there are a lot of useful supplements and some medications depending on people's medical conditions.
• 13:41
  John, maybe you just take a look.
• 13:42
  Begin by looking at lifestyle factors that can enhance both brain and mind.
• 13:49
  Keep us sharp and keep our brains in good shape.
• 13:52
  And one of the nice things about a lot of these things is it seems that when intellectual function is maintained, there are underlying neural changes that also show up.
• 14:06
  For example, jumping ahead.
• 14:08
  Meditation is one practice that has been found to have an enormous number of benefits, both physical and mental.
• 14:17
  And there are thousands and thousands of research studies showing the benefits of a regular meditation practice.
• 14:24
  But for the actual research studies on the effects of meditation, on psychological well being, on intellectual capacity, et cetera, there are now a lot of studies showing that, for example, it enhances memory, even raises IQ points a little,
• 14:44
  and increases perceptual sharpness.
• 14:47
  People are able to detect more nuanced experiences.
• 14:52
  They're able to pick up very subtle cues, emotional cues in other people's faces.
• 14:57
  In fact, advanced meditators have now shown you're able to develop 20 capacities that psychologists formerly thought were impossible.
• 15:06
  For example, incredibly sharp perception, lucid dreaming, that is the capacity to be aware while dreaming.
• 15:14
  Very quick perceptual processing, picking up things very quickly.
• 15:19
  And that all goes along with a variety of changes in the brain that they've been able to measure.
• 15:25
  And so there's physical changes in the brain that can be.
• 15:28
  Yeah, actual physical change, including even measurable changes in parts of brain size and also different measures of neural connectivity between different parts of the brain.
• 15:38
  So all of which is to say that I'm just using meditation here as an example of a lifestyle or intervention or way of living.
• 15:49
  Having a regular meditation practice has a lot of.
• 15:52
  First has physical benefits like lowering blood pressure, but also has a host of psychological benefits and detectable effects on the underlying neural structure.
• 16:04
  So meditation is one practice.
• 16:06
  It's just really helpful for care and maintenance of the brain.
• 16:10
  So we started with that as an example of the interventions affect both mind and intellect and the underlying neural structure.
• 16:18
  If we move to one of the things that approaches lifestyle factors that best known.
• 16:23
  I think of these things as TLCs, therapeutic lifestyle changes.
• 16:28
  And of course the best one is exercise.
• 16:32
  Exercise is probably the best thing we have got for maintaining the brain and the body.
• 16:39
  I mean, if you got to pick one thing, exercise is probably it because it seems to help everything.
• 16:45
  You know, in our heritage, from our Greek ancestors, the western civilization, gymnasiums were just built into it.
• 16:53
  You know, Socrates had a great body until he died.
• 16:57
  He had to commit suicide, drink hemlock or lead the city.
• 17:00
  He chose a hemlock.
• 17:02
  But that was just built into.
• 17:04
  You see these statues, you don't see pot bellies, you don't see jelly rolls.
• 17:08
  They really had an idea of what the human body could be like, both feminine and masculine.
• 17:14
  And that's I think one of the real gifts that we've gotten from the Greeks, among many other things.
• 17:20
  Yeah, certainly seemed like they appreciated that.
• 17:24
  And of course I assume it was an agrarian culture.
• 17:27
  So I assume a lot of people were doing heavy work as well.
• 17:30
  So yeah, exercise really valuable.
• 17:33
  And it looks as though almost any amount of exercise is valuable for the body.
• 17:39
  But we were talking before about differences between the well balanced exercise routine would include aerobics, I.e.
• 17:49
  Pushing yourself to your panting, plus strength training, plus balance, plus stretching.
• 17:58
  So those four components, and it turns out that those are also valuable for the brain, that aerobic exercise really increases, for example, the blood vasculature of the vessels in the brain.
• 18:12
  Brain gets more oxygen.
• 18:14
  So that helps with Global cognition.
• 18:17
  But it turns out that strength training is also very valuable for the brain.
• 18:23
  So balance things like Tai Chi, which has been found to be beneficial.
• 18:28
  Interestingly, they all have slightly different emphases.
• 18:32
  For example, if I can remember correctly, strength training is really good for global mental functioning, whereas Tai Chi is very good for executive functions, which are the kind of higher order things we call into play when we're thinking
• 18:49
  through a difficult problem, planning a series of actions, meetings, et cetera.
• 18:54
  So it turns out these different kinds of exercise have overlapping but somewhat different effects on the brain and mind.
• 19:04
  And just as it makes sense to have a well rounded exercise routine, also makes sense to have a well rounded exercise routine for care and maintenance of the brain.
• 19:15
  So there's an interesting follower up there and you're a big exerciser, John boy.
• 19:20
  You go to, I don't know how many times I've called you and you're saying, oh, I'm on my way to the gym, I'm on the.
• 19:27
  Yeah, I'm on the machine.
• 19:29
  I would also say that exercise is really good for treating the effects of depression, something that I have struggled with.
• 19:36
  And as you get older, if you don't take care of your body, I think besides your brain getting less useful, you get depressed, you don't see the meaning, what's happening here?
• 19:45
  Why am I here?
• 19:46
  And I've been down that dark tunnel quite a bit in my life, and I've found that exercise has been essential for just maintaining that I can just be here, you know, and still contribute.
• 19:57
  Oh, that's so important, John.
• 19:59
  I'm, I'm really grateful that you brought it up because it's absolutely true.
• 20:04
  Turns out that exercise is about as effective as antidepressants for treating depression.
• 20:11
  And that exercise is also prophylactic, meaning it reduces the likelihood of getting depression or having another depressive episode.
• 20:21
  And I will say that a couple of things.
• 20:25
  One is, it turns out that your emphasis about the importance of treating this with exercise and maybe medications is really important because untreated depression is associated with greater intellectual loss with aging.
• 20:43
  And that's a really sad one because here's a treatable disorder, sometimes challenging to treat, but with the right combination of medication, social stimulation, support and exercise, the vast majority of people can significantly improve.
• 20:58
  So here's a preventable cause of intellectual loss and even dementia that isn't being adequately treated in the culture at large.
• 21:10
  One of the great tragedies, of course, of our medical system is that so many people don't get adequate psychiatric mental health care and don't have access to people and could benefit from the kind of regimes we're talking about.
• 21:24
  Yeah.
• 21:25
  And it takes.
• 21:26
  You just gotta develop mental discipline and drag your butt to the gym or wherever you exercise, even though you don't feel like it.
• 21:32
  You know, it's just a thing.
• 21:34
  If you make it a practice that becomes ingrained, you don't have to think about it.
• 21:38
  So, well, I gotta work out today, and this is the body parts I'm gonna do.
• 21:41
  This is how long I'm gonna do aerobics and I'm gonna stretch and do these things.
• 21:45
  But if you.
• 21:46
  If you just build that into your life and it's hard getting started, right?
• 21:50
  It's like this movable object is really hard to move at first until it gathers some momentum and then it really rolls.
• 21:57
  So this is something to.
• 21:58
  To really make a goal and really stick to it, whether you feel like it or not.
• 22:04
  Just drag your butt to the gym.
• 22:06
  Yeah, and you made an important point there, John.
• 22:08
  That's getting started that can be hard.
• 22:11
  And making healthy lifestyle practices a regular practice is really, really helpful.
• 22:20
  So since we've started on this, it's probably good to just mention a few things about initiating healthy habits or initiating new habits.
• 22:28
  One is it's really valuable to set initial, small, achievable goals.
• 22:36
  So many people set these grand, particularly New Year resolutions.
• 22:41
  You know, I'm going to lose £20, go to the gym, you know, so many times a week, and it's like, okay, well, maybe, maybe start with getting to the gym for a brief time, a couple of days a
• 22:54
  week, and build up.
• 22:56
  So one thing is small, manageable initial goals build up slowly and a commitment to regularity.
• 23:05
  Get social support from your spouse, your friends, tell them what you're going to do, ask for the help, ask them to ask you how you're doing with it, et cetera.
• 23:15
  Those kind of things really make a difference.
• 23:18
  So it becomes something that you look forward to.
• 23:20
  Roger.
• 23:20
  It's not always just drag your butt to the gym.
• 23:22
  It's like, hey, I gotta go to the gym, you know, and it's a time I do a lot of my listening to podcasts and, and whatnot while I'm doing cardio, which is kind of boring, personally.
• 23:32
  And I do cardio first because I don't like it as much.
• 23:35
  And I, you know, I strict for dessert.
• 23:37
  I get strength training and stretching, which I enjoy more.
• 23:40
  So I do all the cardio first and I listen to you and all these different brilliant people that we've had on this podcast.
• 23:48
  And so that's.
• 23:48
  I look forward to it.
• 23:49
  I get to really dive into this and I find my brain is really awake while I'm listening to this stuff.
• 23:55
  And pretty soon a half hour is just like, is done, you know, and I might add a little more.
• 24:00
  So that's been helpful for me.
• 24:02
  Yeah, you always seem pretty happy when you're heading to the gym.
• 24:05
  I call you.
• 24:06
  Oh, sorry, I only talk a few minutes.
• 24:08
  Going to the gym.
• 24:10
  Yeah.
• 24:12
  So let's see, we've talked about exercise and meditation, another key thing for lifestyle.
• 24:20
  It's just getting more and more important that friendships really make an enormous difference in terms of not only our psychological well being, not only reducing the risk of depression and loneliness, but in maintaining intellectual sharpness.
• 24:39
  And that social isolation is deadly.
• 24:42
  And it can be social isolation exacerbated by hearing loss when people are deaf.
• 24:48
  That's an incredibly large risk factor for subsequent intellectual loss and dementia.
• 24:55
  So social connections turn out to be really important for all kinds of psychological well being and for intellectual maintenance.
• 25:06
  And it's also hopefully one of the most enjoyable things just to be with people and to get stimulated by conversations, et cetera.
• 25:18
  And unfortunately in our culture there's a lot of loneliness, a lot of isolation and loneliness, particularly in people with less resources.
• 25:30
  So this is one of the tragedies of our time, that our modern lifestyle tend to separate people.
• 25:38
  And that of course is exacerbated by the Internet and media which want to entrap people, spending more time on their phones and screens rather than actually meeting with real live human beings the old fashioned way.
• 25:57
  So the pandemic didn't help that at all.
• 25:59
  Roger, A lot of young people were really hurt by that time where they couldn't hang out with other people.
• 26:04
  It really affected them psychologically and spiritually.
• 26:08
  And I might add that, that our friendship that has developed over the years has become a big part of my life.
• 26:14
  It just started and I got this idea about the podcast and we kind of started and kind of stumbled because of pandemic and all.
• 26:21
  And then it got going.
• 26:23
  So not only is the relationship and we talk about this a lot, it's the preparation for these podcasts.
• 26:29
  We really have to do our homework, you know, and we've been doing these series with, ah, Almas for gosh, it's over two years now and he's not easy reading.
• 26:41
  I just get in there and, you know, if I get three pages done in one sitting, I'm very happy.
• 26:46
  And I've also found that I can because of That I can read and study for longer than I used to.
• 26:52
  Before we studied this project, it was getting down.
• 26:54
  I could only do it for about an hour.
• 26:57
  Then I would kind of get fuzzy.
• 26:59
  But now I can do three hours, three and a half hours.
• 27:01
  So I've really noticed a positive change in my ability to focus intellectually.
• 27:05
  And of course, it's spiritual food too, when you're dealing with Hamid or age.
• 27:10
  Almost wonderfully said.
• 27:12
  Given that there is significant research showing that the average attention span has shortened dramatically over the last decade with the increased use of screens and multitasking, et cetera.
• 27:26
  Gloria Marks at the University of California, Irvine, just has a series of studies showing that people are interrupted during a day so many times by so many screens and notifications that we have a continuously fragmented attention, as it's
• 27:43
  called, or acquired attention hyperactivity disorder.
• 27:48
  So this is an issue.
• 27:50
  And it's beautiful to hear you describe the way your own engagement with both the interactions we've been privileged to have with Hamid Ali and the preparation, the reading has really strengthened your capacity for sustained attention because that's a
• 28:10
  really important factor.
• 28:11
  That's one of the things that meditation, of course, cultivates.
• 28:14
  It cultivates and trains attention and the capacity for sustaining it.
• 28:19
  So I know you have a meditation practice, so they probably go hand in hand.
• 28:24
  We should also mention, since this is very close to what you're saying, the value of staying mentally engaged and active.
• 28:31
  For example, it turns out that after people retire, if they move from an active work in which they're getting a lot of intellectual stimulation and demands, and then just go into, you know, more sitting around watching TV and
• 28:46
  playing golf, then intellectual, very quickly sharp measures decline.
• 28:53
  Yeah.
• 28:53
  Very quickly go down.
• 28:54
  Yeah.
• 28:56
  So remaining intellectually active in ways that you enjoy are really valuable.
• 29:02
  And then of course, there's the factor of sleep, which is incredibly important.
• 29:07
  And again, that suffered in our screen saturated culture.
• 29:12
  But it turns out that good sleep is really important for maintaining a brain and mind.
• 29:20
  Turns out that during sleep, the brain clears a lot of toxins, including some of the constituents that make up the plaques and tangles that are part of the Alzheimer's neuropathology.
• 29:33
  But there are a couple of things about sleep to know that aren't so well known.
• 29:37
  One is, yes, it's really get a good amount of sleep.
• 29:40
  And it turns out that really short sleep or really long sleep is not so helpful.
• 29:46
  There's some.
• 29:47
  Once again, the Goldilocks rule that a middle way is beneficial.
• 29:52
  But in addition, it turns out that regular times for sleep are really important and we have the these bodies and minds and brains that are attuned to a 24 hour rhythm and hormones get released in anticipation of sleep
• 30:11
  and whole physiology and neurophysiology changes according to the time of day.
• 30:19
  So if it turns out that it's really helpful to have a regular time to go to sleep, obviously none of us maintain it rigidly, but there's benefit in having a regular sleep rhythm.
• 30:32
  And the second thing is it's turning out that light pollution during the night is really not good for us.
• 30:41
  We are designed to be in dark.
• 30:46
  That's how our forebears live for as long as they're being humans on the planet.
• 30:52
  Well, it turns out, of course, we live in societies in which there's increasing amounts of light pollution and you turn off the light, but you're probably still getting light through the curtains and so forth.
• 31:05
  What does that do, Roger, when you don't get darkness and you're too exposed to light?
• 31:11
  Yeah, well, it does a lot of things and the answers are still coming in, but it turns out it's not good for physical health.
• 31:18
  And it looks like it may increase the risk of a number of disorders, but it also looks like people who are regularly exposed to nighttime light pollution have an increased risk of dementia.
• 31:31
  So this is not a little thing.
• 31:33
  And so the recommendation is to darken the bedroom, if you can do that, and or to wear a sleep mask.
• 31:42
  And for a lot of us it's not possible to have bedrooms which are completely dark, but very simple thing to wear a sleep mask, which can handle that very easily.
• 31:52
  Roger, can I bring in something?
• 31:53
  Yeah, please.
• 31:54
  It's a little more psychological, existential, having purpose, I think, you know, brings all this together.
• 32:01
  And I know that this podcast has been very important in my life because like I really think that we are contributing.
• 32:07
  I really believe that.
• 32:08
  And the very fact that's deeply imprinted in my soul makes me get up in the morning and helps me to do all the other practices, helps me to exercise, it helps me meditate.
• 32:17
  Because it's not just about me.
• 32:19
  It's about serving and helping others.
• 32:21
  And in my makeup that's that's very essential, very important to have a mission that is hopefully noble and benefits others to keep going.
• 32:32
  Yeah, beautifully said, John.
• 32:34
  And yes, let me take this opportunity to just publicly acknowledge you for the priceless gift you've given me and suggesting and inviting me to co host this podcast with you because it's turned out to be one of the
• 32:47
  great gifts of my life to have these, be able to have really in depth conversations with remarkable people and to feel really good that we are getting people whose work is really making a contribution and getting them and
• 33:01
  their ideas out into the world.
• 33:03
  And that feels really great.
• 33:05
  Maybe I'll take this opportunity to ask our listeners, please help us if you would, by liking the podcast subscribing and telling your friends, because we really feel extraordinarily privileged to be able to dialogue with the people we're dialoguing
• 33:22
  with and to get their ideas out.
• 33:25
  And you can help get their ideas out further.
• 33:27
  So thank you.
• 33:28
  And you're pointing here to something which isn't on the list but probably should be, John, and that's service, service and contribution.
• 33:37
  Because it's turning out that service of some kind, volunteering, helping neighbors, whatever form it takes, contributing to others has enormous benefits, both psychological and even physical.
• 33:56
  And it even turns out that people who volunteer regularly live longer.
• 34:03
  I mean, it's pretty amazing.
• 34:06
  But you said it gives people a purpose.
• 34:09
  Just living for your own well being is not a big enough project to give life purpose.
• 34:16
  Doesn't get me out of the bed in the morning.
• 34:17
  I just stay in bed.
• 34:20
  Right.
• 34:21
  But thinking that one is actually going to do something for others can be very inspiring and it really has an impact.
• 34:28
  People who contribute regularly, who volunteer, for example, are psychologically healthier, their well being levels are better, their blood pressure tends to be lower, and there is some initial data that their intellectual sharpness remains greater too.
• 34:47
  So I'm glad you brought this up.
• 34:49
  I don't have it in here as one of the factors because there isn't a lot of research on the intellectual effects of, of volunteering and service.
• 34:58
  But you're right, it gives life a purpose and it inspires us to do the other things.
• 35:04
  And I recently had a conversation with one of my older friends, a kind of mentor who was a very well known physician who's now 95.
• 35:14
  And he said, you know, he's a sharp as a tack and beautiful being.
• 35:20
  But he said, you know, yeah, I kind of hope I don't live to a hundred.
• 35:23
  I don't have a purpose anymore.
• 35:25
  I thought, wow, okay, here's someone who's made enormous contributions over a lifetime, but now he's living alone, his wife has died, he has some family support, but he doesn't have a purpose.
• 35:39
  Just what you were saying, John.
• 35:41
  And he's ready.
• 35:43
  He said, yeah, he's ready to let go.
• 35:46
  So it's like, yeah, okay, so that really, that got my attention.
• 35:50
  That really Got my attention.
• 35:52
  Here's someone I look up to who has done so much good in his life, and now he's at a point where he doesn't have a purpose, doesn't see a way he can contribute.
• 36:03
  And so he's feeling, why live?
• 36:06
  It's like, wow, okay.
• 36:09
  So that's making me look at, okay, how can, as I age, how can I find ways to be able to contribute and have a purpose?
• 36:17
  And I think those of us who have a spiritual practice, who meditate, who have a contemplative life of some form, that in itself gives a purpose because it does kind of give a sense of a connection to something
• 36:30
  greater than ourselves and a sense of aligning ourselves with the fundamental nature of reality.
• 36:37
  And he doesn't have so much of a spiritual practice, but.
• 36:40
  Yeah, well, all the great traditions ends up with service.
• 36:44
  You know, giving back.
• 36:45
  I mean, it just, you know, it's.
• 36:46
  It's one of the conscience, you see, in these true spiritual traditions is about.
• 36:50
  It's not about you.
• 36:51
  It's about we.
• 36:52
  It's about connection and giving back.
• 36:56
  Well said.
• 36:57
  Yeah.
• 36:57
  Beautifully said, John.
• 36:58
  You know, you're summarizing what took me three years to learn.
• 37:03
  You know, I spent three years writing a book, Essential Spirituality, the seven Central Practices in which I looked across the world's contemplative spiritual traditions.
• 37:13
  Because I really wanted to know, what do the greatest sages of history say are the qualities of heart and mind that we need to live wisely and well, and how do we cultivate them?
• 37:25
  And it seemed like across traditions there were seven kind of capacities or skills that they all recommended.
• 37:33
  Live ethically, transform your emotions, let go anger and hatred, cultivate love and compassion and joy, et cetera.
• 37:41
  But to come to your point, exactly as you said, all of them culminated in service and contribution.
• 37:51
  Not doing this for yourself alone, because if you're trying to do it for yourself alone, you're just feeding your ego.
• 37:58
  And the goal is to transcend one's limited self sense and ego and to become and serve something greater than yourself.
• 38:07
  And so service is both a practice and the goal and culmination and crown of all these practices.
• 38:16
  So thank you very much for bringing that in, John.
• 38:18
  Absolutely.
• 38:19
  Another thing, Roger, I noticed in the notes when I was preparing for this conversation, you talked about spending time in nature as part of the lifestyle that would contribute to the enhancement of our brain and our purpose and
• 38:32
  our ability to carry on and be alive and useful as we age.
• 38:37
  Yeah.
• 38:37
  And you've certainly spent a lot of time in nature John say that?
• 38:41
  I do, yeah.
• 38:43
  Much more than I have.
• 38:44
  Is there anything you'd like to say?
• 38:46
  Well, yeah, we have two homes.
• 38:47
  I'm right now in southern Utah, and our home here, which we've had, I don't know, a long time, but it is in southern Utah.
• 38:55
  There's 2500 people in the whole county, and there's 2500 square miles, and most of it's public land.
• 39:02
  National Park Service, blm, Forest Service.
• 39:05
  So you go everywhere, you know, most places, everything private property.
• 39:09
  If you don't own it or something, you can't go there.
• 39:12
  So it's been really, really useful for me, and it's been a big help with my depression over the years and just an incident that happened.
• 39:20
  And this will kind of expose me politically.
• 39:23
  But when Donald Trump won election for president a second time, I personally was devastated.
• 39:30
  And I just.
• 39:31
  Oh, my God.
• 39:32
  I mean, it was really, really heavy.
• 39:34
  And you know what?
• 39:36
  My poor country, the poor world, you know, we're gonna have to be subjected to this.
• 39:40
  So I got in my truck and grabbed my dog and then went to this isolated place out in the desert, and I just.
• 39:46
  We just walked and stayed out there in this beautiful red rock, amazing territory that we have around here.
• 39:54
  And I noticed it really helped.
• 39:56
  You know, I mean, it seemed like a psychic sponge.
• 40:00
  It just took a lot of the.
• 40:01
  The emotional and psychic toxins and got rid of it so that I could approach the subject with more, perhaps more centeredness or wisdom and.
• 40:11
  Okay, given that, you know, what are the next steps?
• 40:14
  But it was very remarkable how much that helped.
• 40:16
  Yeah.
• 40:17
  And it's striking.
• 40:18
  You're.
• 40:18
  You're echoing a theme that's found across history, that sages and spiritual practitioners seek support in nature.
• 40:26
  The shamans go into the wilderness.
• 40:29
  You and the Native Americans have done vision quests in the wilderness.
• 40:35
  Christian desert fathers retired to the desert.
• 40:38
  The Buddha sat in the forest.
• 40:40
  The Buddhist monks were moved into the forest for retreat.
• 40:43
  Jesus went into the desert for 40 days.
• 40:46
  Yeah.
• 40:46
  Before he started his.
• 40:48
  Well, his ministry, his life's work.
• 40:50
  So he came out of the desert with a vision.
• 40:53
  And.
• 40:53
  John, you've done a lot of work taking troubled kids into the wilderness.
• 40:59
  Yep.
• 40:59
  It's remarkable, you know, I mean, the first couple of weeks we'd be out there.
• 41:03
  Those were the hardest times.
• 41:05
  But eventually we started just shifting.
• 41:08
  And when you're living like that with other people in kind of a tribal, like, ancestral way and moving through the wilderness, and we made our fires with friction method.
• 41:17
  We didn't use matches or Lighters and.
• 41:19
  And we made our own shelters and everything.
• 41:21
  And in the last weeks of it, maybe the last month with a single group.
• 41:26
  I can't believe I'm getting paid to do this.
• 41:28
  You know, I had this band of brothers and sometimes sisters that were so close, and we just loved each other and.
• 41:34
  And I.
• 41:35
  There would be a moment in most of these young men or young women's experience, or they look around and they're kind of grubby, and they've been in the wilderness a long time and they're sunburned and their hair is
• 41:45
  looking dramatic.
• 41:46
  And they said, you know what'?
• 41:47
  Really beautiful here.
• 41:49
  And I said, wow, it's about time for you to go home.
• 41:52
  You finally got it.
• 41:53
  There's some connection that was made there.
• 41:55
  Very sacred kind of holy experience.
• 41:58
  Yeah.
• 41:59
  Beautiful.
• 41:59
  Beautiful work.
• 42:00
  And that was, as I understand, a major part of your integral recovery program, because you, of course, wrote the book Integral Recovery, about bringing a multidimensional approach to recovery from addiction.
• 42:11
  But as I understand it, that wilderness immersion was a central part of it.
• 42:15
  Yeah.
• 42:15
  So we need to protect our wilderness areas, and we're so blessed in this country.
• 42:19
  And Donald, my bless his heart, is trying to take a lot of these national monuments and stuff and cut off the land available and privatize it so people can make money, because it's transactional.
• 42:31
  If it doesn't make money, it's not worth anything.
• 42:33
  And there's something incredibly important, even in the.
• 42:36
  The John Muir and our great philosophers, they realize that the wilderness, with something very close to wisdom or very close to God, very mysteriously sacred.
• 42:47
  And we need to maintain that and protect the.
• 42:50
  The creatures and the land that we still have and take our kids into, go into it ourselves.
• 42:55
  It's a big help.
• 42:57
  It's more than a help.
• 42:58
  It's almost.
• 42:59
  It's just being human.
• 43:00
  It's being.
• 43:01
  I can't even find the words.
• 43:02
  I've never.
• 43:02
  And I've never been able to describe effectively the effects of immersion in nature.
• 43:08
  I had a lot of friends who were wilderness guides, and we always puzzled over, you know, we're.
• 43:12
  It's different.
• 43:13
  You know, we come back from these long trips feeling transformed and cleansed.
• 43:18
  It was really hard to get back into normal life.
• 43:22
  You know, for the first couple of days, you know, you had to reset your.
• 43:25
  Just emotions and your brain and your senses to living under a roof again.
• 43:30
  And, you know, phones and screens and people and electric lights and all this stuff.
• 43:35
  So, you know, if you can, and you're looking for an intervention for yourself, Find somebody that knows something about the wilderness and travel into it or do a vision quest or just go out there and sit for four
• 43:46
  or five days.
• 43:47
  You don't have to fast, just be there, watch what creatures show up and watch the stars and watch the wind and the weather and the sunlight.
• 43:54
  You can't do it virtually.
• 43:55
  You've got to, got to be there.
• 43:57
  Beautifully said, John.
• 43:58
  And.
• 43:59
  And even it's clear that even shorter periods, just a few hours in nature can be restorative for people.
• 44:08
  Absolutely.
• 44:09
  Healing and blood pressure goes down.
• 44:13
  Yeah.
• 44:14
  There's a term.
• 44:14
  We are biophilic.
• 44:16
  We are drawn to life and nurtured by exposure to it by natural settings.
• 44:23
  Yeah.
• 44:23
  So thank you.
• 44:24
  Beautifully said, John.
• 44:25
  Yeah, I said that.
• 44:27
  I used to say that there's no atheist after four weeks in the Utah Southern wilderness.
• 44:33
  You know, and you might not be a believer of this, but you might even be an agnostic, but there's no atheist.
• 44:40
  There's something greater here.
• 44:41
  There's something bigger than you and me, and it ignites that in the soul.
• 44:45
  Then you can follow that in whatever spiritual path that you're drawn to.
• 44:48
  That's a very interesting statement.
• 44:49
  You've said that before, but I just getting it in a new way.
• 44:53
  It's like, yeah, okay.
• 44:54
  What I'm hearing is that being in these vast natural settings, that's naturally kind of, I'm thinking it kind of attenuates our skin encapsulated egos and gets us in touch with something vaster.
• 45:11
  Yeah.
• 45:12
  The mystery, the sacred mystery.
• 45:14
  Beautiful.
• 45:15
  The one thing also I wanted to.
• 45:16
  Before we get away with this, Einstein donated his brain to science.
• 45:21
  And they finally, after many, many decades of several decades, they finally got.
• 45:26
  They dissected, they looked at what is this man?
• 45:28
  Obviously one of the great geniuses that our species has produced.
• 45:32
  And they found that he had a very much enlarged frontal lobes of the brain.
• 45:38
  And they were trying to account for it.
• 45:41
  And it turns out that Einstein was a lifelong violinist.
• 45:46
  They found similar things in these master musicians.
• 45:50
  I've been a passionate guitarist, mainly the blues, for, well, most of my life.
• 45:55
  And when I was 50, I took up electric guitar.
• 45:58
  And I said, am I too old to learn this?
• 46:01
  Because I'd always loved, you know, the music I grew up with with the Beatles and, and Hendrix and Eric Clapton, et cetera.
• 46:07
  Stevie won and I just dedicated myself to doing it.
• 46:12
  And you've heard me play on a couple of occasions, Roger.
• 46:15
  And I'm pretty damn good.
• 46:16
  You know, I'm not on the level of my heroes, but I can express a lot of emotion and, and through my fingers and my heart connecting with this instrument.
• 46:26
  And the guitar neck is almost infinite in complexity.
• 46:30
  I mean there's just no.
• 46:31
  They, I've got it all.
• 46:32
  You know, it's how you touch vibrato, the chords, the notes, the riffs, putting it all together.
• 46:38
  And it's just.
• 46:39
  Well, it's music and I mean there's no, there's no human beings that we've ever known of that haven't had some sort of music.
• 46:46
  It's just part of us.
• 46:48
  We have these beautiful instruments, piano and the guitar and all, you know, the whole thing in a symphonic orchestra.
• 46:55
  If you take that up and dedicate yourself with practice, it's the only way to get good.
• 46:59
  All the, all the great heroes were just practice junkies.
• 47:03
  Jimi Hendrix slept with his guitar.
• 47:05
  A guy who lived with him said he'd take it to bed with him.
• 47:07
  So.
• 47:08
  And it showed.
• 47:08
  So I just wanted to add that, that it's that complexity and the beauty of the sound and working these things out and practicing these things over and over till you get it seems to just transform one and been
• 47:20
  a huge help in my life.
• 47:22
  Yeah, it's a beautiful example of the power of.
• 47:25
  I think you're touching several things.
• 47:27
  One, I'm just getting a sense of how inspired you are by that and how much you've practiced and the nuance and how much learning there is in that.
• 47:35
  So it really feels like it's been just a wonderful way for you to develop another side of yourself.
• 47:42
  And I don't know the research on music well enough, but my understanding is it certainly has its psychological benefits and its effect on well being.
• 47:51
  Yeah, that would be interesting to research and look into.
• 47:55
  Yeah.
• 47:55
  Maybe we could shift to another major topic now.
• 47:58
  We've talked a bit about lifestyle, maybe we could talk about diet.
• 48:02
  And there are three things here to keep in mind.
• 48:06
  First is just fluids, fluid intake.
• 48:09
  You know, we've probably all heard that dehydration clouds the mind.
• 48:14
  And particularly as we age, we get more sensitive to dehydration.
• 48:18
  So staying hydrated is really important for immediate intellectual capacity and clarity.
• 48:25
  But it turns out quite recently there's been studies showing that long term dehydration, which is a risk for elderly people in particular because as we age, the first senses get less sensitive.
• 48:38
  So it's easy to get dehydrated without really knowing it, without feeling it so much.
• 48:43
  So it's really important, particularly as we age, to pay attention to regular hydration because not only for the Immediate benefit.
• 48:52
  But because it turns out the chronic levels of dehydration can produce significant cognitive loss.
• 48:58
  So this is turning out to have major long term importance as well as short term importance.
• 49:05
  So keep drinking.
• 49:07
  Yeah.
• 49:07
  When I was a wilderness guy for years, one of the things I had to teach right off with my students so they could maintain their health in the wilderness.
• 49:15
  And we were in deserts and very high altitudes.
• 49:18
  Drink water.
• 49:19
  It just became this mantra, Drink water, drink water.
• 49:22
  And before we do a hike, we'd all know, guzzle down something like this full of water.
• 49:27
  And I know we're going to get into plastics, but anyway, I didn't have them that much, but they certainly learned to once they became competent.
• 49:34
  In the wilderness, you understand how, how important water is.
• 49:37
  And we got our water from the land.
• 49:39
  It wasn't dropped off.
• 49:40
  So we had to find, you know, and you'd follow the, the, the cow trails and, and when the cattle just seem to wander around, but when they all get together and make a distinct trail, that means they're headed
• 49:53
  for water.
• 49:53
  So we could find water by following the footprints of these animals.
• 49:58
  So a little off dick, but interesting.
• 50:00
  Okay, well, I happily just go to the tap.
• 50:05
  But along with fluid intake, of course, is a big one that all of us know something about, which is diet.
• 50:13
  And there's an enormous amount of stuff out there on diet, and you can go crazy trying to figure it all out.
• 50:20
  So I can save you a lot of time here.
• 50:22
  I spent two years writing a big article on lifestyle and mental health, and part of that was on diet.
• 50:31
  So I spent a couple of years researching diet.
• 50:34
  So you can either spend two years or you can follow these three simple general principles.
• 50:41
  Well, I boil it down to.
• 50:43
  From two years of intensive study was three principles.
• 50:47
  One, eat primarily a vegetarian diet, and a vegetarian diet that's multicolored or so called rainbow.
• 50:57
  That is a vegetarian diet with lots of different colors.
• 51:00
  Colors indicate pigments.
• 51:02
  Pigments indicate various nutritional factors.
• 51:05
  So first eat a multicolored or so called rainbow diet, vegetarian diet with some fish.
• 51:13
  So this is now a pesco vegetarian diet.
• 51:16
  And ideally deep cold water fish like salmon, because these have a lot of fish oil.
• 51:25
  And the third thing is minimize excess calories.
• 51:28
  Turns out that one of the very few ways we have of actually slowing the aging process is reducing calorie intake.
• 51:39
  Almost everything we do for longevity is disease prevention.
• 51:43
  But caloric reduction actually does slow the aging process some.
• 51:50
  So again, we don't have to starve ourselves, but just, you know, we are a culture with an enormous Amount of obesity, largely, of course, because we are the victims of a multibillion dollar industry getting us to buy unhealthy
• 52:03
  food, so called ultra processed foods instead of natural foods, fresh fruit and vegetables and fish.
• 52:12
  So it's a constant battle not to overeat, not to consume empty calories.
• 52:18
  But it's also very important not only for our bodies, but for our brains too.
• 52:23
  And so I've worked out, I eat once a day in the evening.
• 52:28
  I don't know if that's good or not, but I just do.
• 52:31
  And I've learned I do get hungry the afternoon, but I could just look forward to dinner but once a day.
• 52:36
  Well, there's a whole new area now of that kind of interval fasting, or regular interval fasting, as it's called.
• 52:44
  And it does look as though it has some benefits for both body and brain.
• 52:50
  We don't have to go into the chemistry of it.
• 52:52
  But for people who are so inclined to do that, eating within a smaller window of the day, that is say from just over a smaller period, definitely not eating over the whole 16 hours turns out to be beneficial
• 53:09
  for again, body and brain.
• 53:11
  So yeah, so you're onto something there.
• 53:13
  So again, for diet, very simple, three principles.
• 53:16
  A rainbow collard, primarily vegetarian diet with some fish, a so called pesco vegetarian diet and minimize excess calories.
• 53:26
  Then the other thing with diet is we're all exposed to a lot of artificial sweeteners these days.
• 53:32
  Many of us use them instead of sugar.
• 53:34
  Sugar is problematic.
• 53:37
  But it turns out that some initial research evidence suggesting that artificial sweeteners are not good for brains and that they can accelerate brain aging.
• 53:48
  So probably good to minimize artificial sweeteners that doesn't include stevia, which is a natural sweetener.
• 53:55
  So Stevie is okay?
• 53:56
  Well, I have put it this way, I haven't seen any evidence that it's bad.
• 54:02
  It's not a terribly inspiring positive response.
• 54:06
  But the artificial sweeteners look as though they accelerate brain aging.
• 54:11
  And since we're talking about taking stuff in from the environment, maybe we could talk about environmental risks.
• 54:17
  Yeah, and unfortunately, we live in a chemical soup.
• 54:23
  We are exposed to thousands and thousands of chemicals, almost none of which have been adequately tested.
• 54:30
  The current approach that has of course been largely industry driven is that chemicals are used and released without proving their safety.
• 54:44
  That is, they may be subject to some testing, but there's no way adequate to prove they're actually safe.
• 54:51
  And there are just a slew of chemicals that we all swim in.
• 54:56
  You know, it's changing so fast.
• 54:57
  Twenty years Ago, none of us had heard of forever chemicals or hormone disruptors.
• 55:03
  But now, for example, fertility, there's this, all this talk about the, the low fertility rates in our country and around the world with declining populations in China or Japan and et cetera.
• 55:19
  But part of that, by no means the main part, but a part of it is the fact that the sperm count worldwide has dramatically decreased in recent decades.
• 55:33
  I mean, think of that.
• 55:34
  The average sperm count and vitality rate of the sperm, that is percentage of healthy sperm has gone down steadily over the last few decades across the world.
• 55:48
  Plus you have more miscarriages these days, Roger.
• 55:52
  Is that attributed to chemicals in our air, our food?
• 55:56
  That's the main thought, yep.
• 55:58
  All you know, we have a, we are swimming in a soup of chemicals.
• 56:02
  There's hormone disruptors, certainly we're seeing more abnormal, for example intersex animal species with change genitalia and so forth, all thought to be as a result of chemical disruptors and other chemicals.
• 56:17
  So Anne probably should have bought this quote, but there's a quote by one of the France's leading environmental researchers, a woman who won, I think, the prestigious French research medal.
• 56:29
  There's a quote from her which says it is impossible to have a normal brain in these times because our brains are being contaminated by multiple chemicals, most of which we don't know what they do and certainly we don't
• 56:45
  know what they do in combination.
• 56:48
  But the average American, I mean, I can't remember the exact figure here.
• 56:53
  I think the average American has in their blood detectable levels of something like 70 plus different chemicals.
• 57:00
  Now what that's doing to us, we don't know, but it's probably not good.
• 57:05
  And we really need to move as a culture from the current legislative attitude of it's okay to release chemicals until they prove dangerous to a preventive one of nothing's released until it's proved safe.
• 57:22
  This is, you know, Roger, also this year because of the record high heat, in many places in the world there have been wildfires.
• 57:31
  When we drove here from Louisiana to Utah, we saw huge, huge apocalyptic looking flames.
• 57:38
  And then we got into where we live and there, there was smoke coming from California and you know, the Canadians were having bad wildfires.
• 57:48
  And we love you, Canada.
• 57:49
  Sorry about our president.
• 57:50
  We'll take care of it eventually.
• 57:52
  And yeah, Europe too.
• 57:53
  Is that, sorry, Europe.
• 57:54
  We've been kind of out of it too.
• 57:56
  But anyway, back to the smoke.
• 57:57
  And so I was talking to you on the phone and you said, yeah, wear the mask, all the smoke.
• 58:02
  Because even the, the natural Smoke in it from the.
• 58:05
  And no telling what else is burning also.
• 58:07
  That is something to be aware of.
• 58:08
  And so we basically stayed in the house and we have lots of mask around, so when we'd go out, we'd use that.
• 58:14
  And it was really, really bad.
• 58:16
  The smoke was really thick.
• 58:17
  Yeah.
• 58:18
  And unfortunately, John, you're pointing to one of the growing challenges of our time and something we're going to see more of with global warming.
• 58:24
  These huge fires in forests.
• 58:28
  And of course, maybe in cities too, but the kind of fires you're speaking of were there's enormous amount of smoke generated.
• 58:36
  And unfortunately, we now know that smoke particles can get directly into the brain in smoke.
• 58:45
  There are these very small, just a couple of micron large smoke particles that get into the brain in two ways.
• 58:52
  One, we inhale them, they get into the blood, and then the pass from the blood into the brain, but also we inhale them.
• 59:00
  And the olfactory nerve is the only sensory nerve which routes directly into the brain itself.
• 59:07
  So we inhale the smoke, it gets into the olfactory nerves and moves into the brain.
• 59:13
  So I was, you know.
• 59:15
  Yes, my response to you was, yeah, wear your masks.
• 59:19
  Because it's not a pretty picture what smoke does, not only to our lungs, but.
• 59:25
  But to our brain.
• 59:26
  And so this is a kind of pollution which we tragically need to be more aware of now.
• 59:33
  And I just encourage everyone, if you're in an area with a lot of traffic or with likelihood of smoke, get some N95 masks and have air purifiers in the home.
• 59:49
  This is just something we can all do for ourselves.
• 59:52
  And if you, if you're in an area close to, say, a lot of traffic, because air pollution from traffic is also problematic.
• 1:00:00
  Getting your air conditioners and air filters and air conditioners that recycle the air you're breathing can be really helpful if you're driving through these areas trying to get away from a fire and there's smoke everywhere.
• 1:00:12
  So that's a benefit of air conditioning.
• 1:00:14
  Good point.
• 1:00:15
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:16
  And since we're on pollution, we should mention, of course, plastics, which are inescapable these days.
• 1:00:24
  And yep, we all have them.
• 1:00:26
  But it turns out, you know, we could talk a lot about the effects of plastics, but which we were only really just beginning to understand.
• 1:00:35
  There's a term plasticosis, meaning kind of medical effects of plastics, but it's really a whole new field because we just didn't appreciate how problematic these were or how universal.
• 1:00:49
  There's no place on the planet from the top of Mount Everest to the bottom of the oceans where you can't find plastic components.
• 1:00:57
  And plastic breaks down into microscopic particles, both microplastics, which are tiny little maybe visible things, but nanoplastic particles which get through anything.
• 1:01:10
  And it turns out we used to think they didn't get into the brain because there's a so called blood brain barrier.
• 1:01:17
  The brain, of course, being such an incredibly complex and sensitive organ, has a very sophisticated barrier which keeps out a lot of chemicals and toxins.
• 1:01:28
  And we used to think that plastic couldn't get in there, but it does.
• 1:01:32
  And sadly, the amount of plastic in brains is growing over time as the amount of plastic in the environment grows.
• 1:01:42
  And Roger, what, what are the effects of this?
• 1:01:44
  How does it affect our lives and our brains getting all this plastic in there?
• 1:01:48
  Well, we do not know, but I don't think, I don't know many people who say, oh yeah, I'd like more of that in my brain.
• 1:01:55
  It's not neuroplasticity, let's just be clear.
• 1:01:58
  It's, it's a whole different thing.
• 1:02:00
  Neuroplasticity is good.
• 1:02:02
  That's good, John.
• 1:02:02
  I hadn't thought of that.
• 1:02:05
  You wouldn't?
• 1:02:07
  Yeah.
• 1:02:07
  So this is a very challenging one.
• 1:02:10
  And unfortunately the petrochemical industries, the oil producers, are working very hard to make sure that legislation to reduce plastic production does not happen.
• 1:02:22
  There was an international plastics production UN sponsored, I think, conference recently and basically it got nowhere because the petrochemical countries and companies torpedoed it.
• 1:02:35
  But this is something we're going to have to face as a species because the amount of plastic in the environment just keeps growing and growing and growing.
• 1:02:44
  You know, it's only been around less than a century, so this is a whole new thing.
• 1:02:48
  So we can't avoid it, but we can do a few simple things like switching to glassware rather than plastic wherever possible, not microwaving in plastic.
• 1:03:00
  And I understand reverse osmosis water filters are good for filtering out plastic particles.
• 1:03:07
  So those are the kinds of things we can do.
• 1:03:10
  Yeah, we recently threw out all our plastic chopping mats that we use to prepare food.
• 1:03:14
  And we're back to wood ones.
• 1:03:16
  They're not as convenient, but it's good old wood.
• 1:03:20
  That was under your influence, by the way.
• 1:03:23
  Oh, well, okay.
• 1:03:26
  And let's see, on the.
• 1:03:27
  Just to round out the environmental pollutants of one kind or another, of course, avoid things like pesticides.
• 1:03:34
  A lot of them are neurotoxins and a lot of them should be banned.
• 1:03:39
  So.
• 1:03:40
  But again, the chemical industry is working hard to make sure they're not.
• 1:03:44
  So yeah, remember Rachel Carson, Silent Spring, really important book.
• 1:03:49
  And she talked about Silent Spring bringing no more birds because we were killing them with our air pollution.
• 1:03:55
  And that was a really powerful, powerful book.
• 1:03:57
  It really changed things and environmental laws that came out of the 60s.
• 1:04:01
  So.
• 1:04:01
  Thank you, Rachel.
• 1:04:02
  Yeah.
• 1:04:03
  Lesser.
• 1:04:04
  And there's growing awareness of this, but of course again is industries which are dedicated to making sure that the production of some of these things continues.
• 1:04:14
  So it's a problem.
• 1:04:15
  Maybe we can switch to.
• 1:04:16
  We've done diet and we've done avoiding intake of pollutants.
• 1:04:21
  Maybe we can switch now to supplements because of course there's a lot of hoopla around this and a lot of people on the Internet wanting you to buy their miracle cure all thing that will keep your brain humming
• 1:04:34
  or turn you into Einstein.
• 1:04:36
  But the actual evidence.
• 1:04:38
  So what do we know?
• 1:04:39
  What's the research show?
• 1:04:41
  Well, there's been long term debate about the relative merits of a small amount of alcohol, coffee and green tea.
• 1:04:51
  Those have been three big ones and research now is pretty clear.
• 1:04:55
  But coffee turns out is turning out to be quite beneficial.
• 1:04:59
  So for brains and looks as though that can help not only give us an immediate lift, but also help with the health of the brain and the intellect long term.
• 1:05:13
  Alcohol is a tricky one.
• 1:05:15
  There's some evidence that a very small amount of daily alcohol can maintain brain health, but that's.
• 1:05:21
  It's debated.
• 1:05:23
  So no one's advocating drinking for any brain benefits.
• 1:05:27
  But.
• 1:05:27
  And some people can't handle alcohol.
• 1:05:30
  And I used to tell my students, hey, if you can drink, cheers.
• 1:05:33
  But if you can't, you can't.
• 1:05:35
  I'm sorry, that's just the dice how it rolled in your case and you just can't handle it.
• 1:05:39
  It will control you and eventually lead to your death and doing all kinds of awful things to other people.
• 1:05:44
  So yeah, you know that better than almost anyone traveling.
• 1:05:48
  Yeah, I know a lot about dumb drugs, Roger, not so much about smart drugs.
• 1:05:52
  But I minor expert on the effects of dumb drugs.
• 1:05:56
  But one thing that is now the evidence is really solid for is green tea.
• 1:06:02
  It turns out that for every cup of green tea we drink per day, there's about a 6% reduction in the risk of cognitive decline with aging and the risk of clinical cognitive impairment.
• 1:06:17
  So this is not a small thing, which means, you know, if you drink say three to four cups of green tea a day, that's reducing your risk of cognitive loss by 20%.
• 1:06:28
  I mean this is a big impact, big effect.
• 1:06:32
  So I think I should get royalties of some kind.
• 1:06:36
  I have so many friends now drinking more green tea.
• 1:06:40
  You should absolutely.
• 1:06:41
  If any green tea companies are listening to this, send us a check.
• 1:06:45
  It would be greatly appreciated.
• 1:06:47
  Right.
• 1:06:48
  You know, green tea has been used almost as a sacrament in Japanese and the tea ceremony and Zen for a while.
• 1:06:54
  And, you know, I don't think it's.
• 1:06:56
  I think it's obvious how these two things, meditation and green tea, would go together.
• 1:07:00
  And they've been doing it for a long time, so there must be something behind that.
• 1:07:03
  Yeah, I hope.
• 1:07:04
  I'm certainly.
• 1:07:06
  I certainly feel it helps my meditation.
• 1:07:08
  So, yeah, I'm gonna.
• 1:07:10
  I'm gonna get.
• 1:07:10
  I haven't been drinking green tea for a while, but I'm gonna start again.
• 1:07:14
  Let's see.
• 1:07:15
  So good evidence for that.
• 1:07:17
  Here's a couple of things that have some evidence.
• 1:07:20
  It's not as strong, but there's enough.
• 1:07:23
  And you won't see this on the.
• 1:07:25
  If you look in the standard medical journals, you won't see these two listed because understandably, standard medical journals tend to be pretty conservative.
• 1:07:34
  They want a lot of research before they advocate something.
• 1:07:37
  And of course I should say that all this information is by no means a medical recommendation.
• 1:07:44
  That's not to say that any individual, anyone who's listening, should do these things.
• 1:07:50
  The best approach is to take this information and any other you find from reliable sources.
• 1:07:55
  And I emphasize reliable sources because there's a lot of nonsense around brain maintenance these days.
• 1:08:01
  Get all the information you can from reliable resources, take them to a healthcare professional who knows you and your situation and your medical status, etc.
• 1:08:11
  And come up with some program that works for you.
• 1:08:14
  So this is free information.
• 1:08:15
  I'm not.
• 1:08:16
  Obviously this isn't a medical relationship in which I'm specifically recommending it for specific people.
• 1:08:22
  All that's by way of saying that these next couple of bits of information or things to consider do have some research support, but it's not as solid as the green tea.
• 1:08:34
  You know, you've recommended a whole bunch of things here to change your lifestyle, to help our.
• 1:08:39
  Our cognitive and our lives that continue into as we age.
• 1:08:43
  And I just want to say one day at a time.
• 1:08:45
  You don't have to make all the changes in the next 48 hours, but just start knocking these things off.
• 1:08:51
  You know, get rid of your chopping plastic things and find water containers that don't look like this.
• 1:08:57
  I carry water around with me a whole lot.
• 1:08:59
  I'm a waterholic.
• 1:09:00
  But don't be too overwhelmed.
• 1:09:01
  Just if you just start Making progress, you know, one day at a time.
• 1:09:04
  You'll find it's inspiring.
• 1:09:05
  Yeah.
• 1:09:06
  Again, you're going back to the principles of skillful behavior change.
• 1:09:09
  John yes, exactly.
• 1:09:11
  So a couple of things that are worth knowing about and possibly considering.
• 1:09:16
  Two supplements.
• 1:09:17
  One is lithium.
• 1:09:19
  Lithium you may all have heard of as a medication.
• 1:09:23
  It's widely used for bipolar disorder, that's known as manic depressive disorder.
• 1:09:29
  And it's basically a mood stabilizer, but it's also a neuroprotective, that is it has significant laboratory evidence showing how it actually protects the brain against inflammation and degradation.
• 1:09:46
  So there are two kinds of evidence which make it look as though this might be a really helpful supplement to consider.
• 1:09:52
  The first is laboratory evidence showing it's neuroprotective.
• 1:09:56
  The third is epidemiological evidence which looks across, for example, this country or between countries and finds that there's a relationship between the amount of lithium in the drinking water and mental health.
• 1:10:13
  That's amazing.
• 1:10:13
  So the more lithium there is in the drinking water, the better people's mental health tends to be.
• 1:10:21
  And it looks like the less people are likely to experience cognitive decline.
• 1:10:30
  So it's not proof.
• 1:10:32
  These kind of correlations are not proof, but they are taken together, they're very suggestive.
• 1:10:39
  And the other thing which makes me feel comfortable, I certainly take it myself with using it, is that lithium is very safe.
• 1:10:47
  The therapeutic dose is something like 600 milligrams to 1,200 milligrams a day.
• 1:10:53
  The supplement dose is like 5 to 10 milligrams, about 1% of that per day.
• 1:11:00
  So here we have a safe drug.
• 1:11:02
  All drugs have side effects, but lithium's relatively safe, which people take as a supplement at just 1% of the therapeutic level.
• 1:11:12
  Is that what you do?
• 1:11:13
  Roger?
• 1:11:13
  That 1%, 5 milligrams twice a day, and it's freely available in the health aisles of the local stores.
• 1:11:22
  So anyway, to my mind, it's certainly worth considering.
• 1:11:26
  And as again, I said, you know, ideal for research is human studies where you give something and you have a control group, but you can't do that in.
• 1:11:37
  It's very hard to do those kind of long term studies with humans.
• 1:11:42
  It's very expensive and no drug company is going to do it because lithium's unpatented, anyone can produce it.
• 1:11:50
  So that sounds kind of cynical.
• 1:11:52
  Roger.
• 1:11:52
  Oh no.
• 1:11:53
  John.
• 1:11:54
  Well, we have a capitalistic system which companies depend on making a profit, so there's no profit for them.
• 1:12:02
  And that is ideally where government and medical research funding comes in to Provide the funding for those kind of studies which companies, for obvious reasons don't undertake themselves.
• 1:12:17
  But unfortunately our healthcare system has been, you know, the health research budgets being slashed.
• 1:12:23
  So I've seen over the years people that I've worked with that had bipolar disorder, these huge swings up and down that lithium has really helped stabilize them.
• 1:12:31
  And from what I've heard, they'd really not sure why it does.
• 1:12:34
  It, it just, they know that it does.
• 1:12:37
  Do you have any ideas what lithium's actually doing in the brain?
• 1:12:40
  Well, I'm no expert on the kind of neuropharmacology of lithium, so I can't really say.
• 1:12:46
  And in most cases, you know, most drugs do a lot of different things, so it's often hard to pin it down to what's this exactly.
• 1:12:54
  But you're right, clearly works can be very effective.
• 1:12:58
  Another thing to consider is magnesium.
• 1:13:03
  And as a society we tend to be somewhat magnesium deficient.
• 1:13:08
  So a magnesium supplement is a reasonable thing for one's physical health.
• 1:13:13
  But most magnesium doesn't cross the blood brain barrier.
• 1:13:17
  But there is a particular one called magnesium threonate and that one does cross the blood brain barrier.
• 1:13:25
  And so taking a couple hundred milligrams of that a day.
• 1:13:29
  There are some studies which has shown that that's been associated with enhanced cognition over a period of weeks.
• 1:13:37
  We don't have long term studies yet, but it's looking promising.
• 1:13:42
  And given that magnesium is very safe and we need it, it seems a reasonable thing to consider.
• 1:13:49
  Another thing to consider, but since you mentioned bipolar disorder, something that's beneficial for affective disorders as they're called, bipolar being one of them.
• 1:13:59
  Fish oils.
• 1:14:01
  Fish oils are just really helpful for the brain.
• 1:14:04
  They really just play a major role.
• 1:14:06
  The research does not show that they're particularly effective in maintaining intellectual function.
• 1:14:12
  To my surprise, I thought they would.
• 1:14:15
  But the research is not showing that fish oil is particularly effective for that.
• 1:14:18
  But in general for psychological, for mental, for brain health and mental health, fish oils are something we all should be considering.
• 1:14:29
  Let me ask you a question.
• 1:14:30
  This has puzzled me.
• 1:14:32
  A lot of the times when you're, you're taking fish oil, they come in plastic capsules, which ain't good, so we should just take a spoonful and ingest it like that.
• 1:14:44
  Yeah, for a couple of reasons.
• 1:14:46
  Yes.
• 1:14:46
  I hadn't thought of the plastic capsules.
• 1:14:49
  In fact, I'm not sure they're plastic capsules.
• 1:14:51
  I think they're gelatin capsules.
• 1:14:53
  Oh, good, that makes me feel a lot better.
• 1:14:56
  Thank you.
• 1:14:56
  But in any event, the amount of fish oil that's really beneficial for both hearts and brains.
• 1:15:04
  You need quite a few capsules.
• 1:15:06
  So it's worth considering just getting a bottle of the stuff and taking it.
• 1:15:11
  Maybe a teaspoon or a tablespoon.
• 1:15:12
  Anyway I mention it, it's not so much for the intellectual cognitive effects, but just it's so beneficial for so many parts of brain and mood disorders.
• 1:15:24
  Also seems to be helpful.
• 1:15:26
  Yes, indeed.
• 1:15:27
  Let's see what else.
• 1:15:29
  Yeah, I think that's it for supplements.
• 1:15:31
  So maybe we move on to.
• 1:15:33
  I realize I'm downloading a lot of information here.
• 1:15:37
  Yeah, we're getting toward the end, Roger, but is there anything that you haven't covered that you think is important for people to know?
• 1:15:45
  Yeah, let's see a couple of things.
• 1:15:48
  One, of course, medical workup.
• 1:15:50
  Just have regular medical workups and get things checked because a lot of medical conditions affect our brains.
• 1:15:56
  Very important on the medical side, if you've got some hearing loss to get that corrected to get a hearing aid.
• 1:16:04
  Hearing loss is the biggest factor in increased risk of cognitive loss and dementia.
• 1:16:11
  Is that because it cuts down on your ability to connect with other people?
• 1:16:14
  Yeah, that's a big part of it.
• 1:16:16
  Yes.
• 1:16:17
  Yes.
• 1:16:18
  So it leads to a kind of social isolation.
• 1:16:20
  So get hearing tested and corrected.
• 1:16:24
  Visual loss, if you're really having a lot of visual loss, get that corrected.
• 1:16:29
  So that's really important.
• 1:16:31
  And one medication to avoid are antihistamines, particularly the early ones like Benadryl, which people use for both allergies and sleep.
• 1:16:44
  And turns out that using those long term is associated with an increased risk of cognitive loss.
• 1:16:49
  So if you do need something, use the more recent ones like Allegra, which doesn't cross the blood brain barrier but avoid long term use of the early ones.
• 1:17:00
  And one other thing that this will not make us popular with the anti vax people, but it turns out that vaccinations have a significant benefit in reducing subsequent dementia.
• 1:17:15
  For example, influenza, pneumococcal and tetanus diphtheria all reduce the risk of subsequent dementia.
• 1:17:23
  But the one with the biggest impact, biggest benefit is the shingles vaccine.
• 1:17:27
  That's right, Shingrix.
• 1:17:28
  And that has a significant like, I think it's like a 20% reduction in dementia in people who get that vaccine.
• 1:17:36
  This is a big thing.
• 1:17:38
  So, and I think just one more thing to mention, there's a new intervention which is looking promising.
• 1:17:46
  The evidence isn't conclusive yet, but it's promising.
• 1:17:50
  And that is, it's called olfactory enrichment.
• 1:17:53
  I mentioned before that the olfactory nerve, nerve for smell, is the only one which goes directly into the brain.
• 1:18:01
  Most other, our other senses have so called intermediate neurons before they reach the brain, but the olfactory nerve goes directly into the brain.
• 1:18:11
  And it turns out that loss of smell is associated for a number of reasons with increased risk of dementia.
• 1:18:20
  But it's also looking like olfactory enrichment that is exposing ourselves to a variety of odors of one kind or another on some sort of regular basis can actually heal the sense of smell and looks like it can enhance
• 1:18:37
  intellectual function in both normal people and in people who are at risk of cognitive decline.
• 1:18:45
  So.
• 1:18:46
  And is that something you would recommend to use in our bedrooms as we sleep?
• 1:18:50
  Is that the best way?
• 1:18:51
  Or in our offices or how could we do that?
• 1:18:53
  Let's see.
• 1:18:54
  Well, it turns out that it works when you, when you're sleeping.
• 1:18:59
  So.
• 1:19:00
  So there are now these.
• 1:19:01
  Now, you know, anyone can get an oil diffuser, they're freely available over, or they're readily available all over the place and just put some natural oils in them and have them going during the day or while you sleep.
• 1:19:14
  But there is also at least one more fancy machine, one called memory air, which dispenses I think, 28 different odors during the night.
• 1:19:24
  So there are options here.
• 1:19:26
  They're worth considering.
• 1:19:27
  Research isn't a slam dunk yet, but it's looking very promising.
• 1:19:32
  And there's one thing we haven't talked about, which is the effect of poverty.
• 1:19:36
  You know, it's very easy to talk about buying these supplements and making these lifestyle choices if we have resources, but it's a lot harder if you're living in poverty and just don't have the resources or time or flexibility
• 1:19:54
  available to do this.
• 1:19:55
  And one of the things that's increasingly clear is that inequality is not just a political nice thing to overcome inequality.
• 1:20:07
  The economic inequality really has a major negative impact on both mental health in those who are poor and disadvantaged and in what's called our social capital.
• 1:20:23
  That is the sense of connection and cohesion and collective well being of a community.
• 1:20:30
  And it turns out that the poor are much more at risk of intellectual decline and loss as they age than the affluent.
• 1:20:41
  So for all these reasons, one social consideration we should absolutely be giving attention to is reducing inequality.
• 1:20:51
  We are a society where inequality has accelerated dramatically.
• 1:20:57
  It's actually accelerated around the world.
• 1:20:59
  There's over a thousand billionaires who now own as much as wealth as the poorer half of the planet.
• 1:21:06
  We're become an increasingly unequal society.
• 1:21:10
  And what the research on Social capital shows is that we all suffer.
• 1:21:16
  We are less cohesive, we are less connected and collaborative as a community.
• 1:21:24
  And the poor suffer both psychologically and.
• 1:21:30
  Intellectually, and we suffer psychologically and intellectually.
• 1:21:34
  Those the haves that have enough to see all this and not be able to respond to it.
• 1:21:39
  Or you either have to close your heart or, you know, open your heart.
• 1:21:44
  And it's not healthy that any of God's children are going through this.
• 1:21:48
  And it doesn't have to be.
• 1:21:49
  We could do well said, John.
• 1:21:50
  It's a medical issue.
• 1:21:52
  It's a social issue.
• 1:21:54
  And as you point out, it's an ethical and spiritual issue.
• 1:21:58
  This should not happen.
• 1:21:59
  Read Matthew 25, chapter 25.
• 1:22:02
  He lays it all out, okay, which.
• 1:22:04
  Is he said, and the people are going to come to me and say, lord, Lord, you know, And I said, he'll say, go away, I never knew you.
• 1:22:10
  He said, what do you mean we didn't know you?
• 1:22:11
  We went to church every Sunday and blah, blah, blah, and said, how did we know?
• 1:22:14
  He said, well, I'm the poor, I'm the prisoner, I'm the orphan, I'm the immigrant.
• 1:22:20
  Even said the stranger.
• 1:22:21
  When you serve these people, you're serving me.
• 1:22:24
  And if you didn't quite get that, you really didn't know me.
• 1:22:28
  So there it is.
• 1:22:30
  Okay, that says it.
• 1:22:32
  Yeah.
• 1:22:32
  For a lot of reasons, we as a society need to do whatever we can to reduce inequality.
• 1:22:38
  So I think that's pretty much covers things.
• 1:22:41
  I got one last thing for you, Roger.
• 1:22:43
  Yes.
• 1:22:44
  Okay.
• 1:22:45
  Is there any evidence that you know of that having a pet or another species that you're very close to and a great deal of love and connection there.
• 1:22:56
  Does that help the brain in any way?
• 1:22:58
  That's a great question.
• 1:23:00
  I don't know the research on the brain, but I do know it certainly enhances, well, being people's sense of, you know, you're a great example of that, you.
• 1:23:11
  And you.
• 1:23:11
  You just love your dog.
• 1:23:13
  Yep, absolutely.
• 1:23:15
  Yeah.
• 1:23:15
  And it's true, particularly for elders who are people who are isolated.
• 1:23:19
  Having a pet is just a big thing.
• 1:23:23
  And I'd be very surprised.
• 1:23:24
  Thank you for asking this.
• 1:23:25
  I hadn't thought of it, but I'd be very surprised if it didn't help and maintain cognitive function.
• 1:23:31
  But I don't know any research on.
• 1:23:32
  And Roger, I just want to take this time to thank you from all of us for listening to this.
• 1:23:38
  And this has just been.
• 1:23:40
  It's been so helpful and so, so necessary.
• 1:23:43
  And it's.
• 1:23:43
  It's a real, you know, A real gift you've given us.
• 1:23:45
  So thank you very much, my friend.
• 1:23:47
  And maybe I'll just close by saying that I was stimulated to do this because I'm seeing more and more people are wrestling with cognitive loss.
• 1:23:56
  And I got a.
• 1:23:57
  On my birthday, I got a beautiful message from a dear friend from many, many years ago, one of my first loves who's saying, yeah, how are you doing?
• 1:24:05
  I'm having some memory problems, so it's like, okay, it's time for me to get this information out.
• 1:24:11
  Someday I'd like to get it out as a book, but that'll take a long time.
• 1:24:15
  Right now, what I can do is just download this and make it available.
• 1:24:20
  So thanks very much for giving me the opportunity, John.
• 1:24:23
  Thanks also to our manager, Heidi Mitchell, and our producer, Vanessa Santos, who, without them, we would be in deep trouble.
• 1:24:32
  This wouldn't be happening.
• 1:24:33
  It would not be happening.
• 1:24:35
  Thanks so much to all of you.
• 1:24:36
  Thank you very much for being a part of this conversation.
• 1:24:40
  We hope that you were moved, as we are moved, being part of it ourselves.
• 1:24:44
  We'd also like to see say that this is being funded by Roger and myself.
• 1:24:48
  It comes out of our pockets.
• 1:24:49
  So if you would like to help us to.
• 1:24:51
  Mainly to get this podcast out to more people, because the bigger audience have, which is steadily growing, but the more people we can reach and the more marketing we can do, the more positive effect we can have on
• 1:25:01
  the world.
• 1:25:01
  So we've done a couple of ways, but we'd like you to buy us a cup of coffee.
• 1:25:05
  Very simple.
• 1:25:06
  And I do that with podcasts that I support, and I find it's very satisfying.
• 1:25:11
  So thank you for your help, thank you for your presence and thank you for all you are and all you do.
• 1:25:16
  We love you.