Latest / The Midlife Momma Podcast - Empty nest mom, Parenting adult children, Midlife transition, Christian mom / 226. When Families Become Estranged and How Healing Begins with Therapist Rachel Haack

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226. When Families Become Estranged and How Healing Begins with Therapist Rachel Haack · The Midlife Momma Podcast - Empty nest mom, Parenting adult children, Midlife transition, Christian mom

0:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Christian parenting.
0:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey mama, I'm Pamela Hinkelman, certified emptiness coach and your listening to the mid-life Mama podcast.
0:16
[SPEAKER_01]: This show is for Christian moms navigating the emptiness, learning how to let go with grace, set healthy boundaries, reconnected marriage, and step confidently into their God-given purpose.
0:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Each week, I'll coach you through this season with faith-filled encouragement,
0:31
[SPEAKER_01]: honest conversations and practical tools that you can apply right away to your relationships and your life.
0:37
[SPEAKER_01]: If this episode encourages you, I'd be grateful if you leave a quick rating and review.
0:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It helps other moms find the support they need.
0:45
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll find the link in the show notes and make sure you're following the podcast and let's get started.
0:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever wondered how did we get here?
0:54
[SPEAKER_01]: One day you're packing school lunches and cheering for the sidelines, the next, your adult child barely returns your text or has stopped talking to you all together.
1:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Family estrangement is one of the deepest heartbreak some mom can experience.
1:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It leaves you questioning your path, replaying conversations and wondering if reconciliation is ever possible.
1:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Today's guest, Therapist Rachel Hack, is a licensed, marriage, and family therapist specializing in family conflict and estrangement.
1:24
[SPEAKER_01]: She is a compassionate voice, and here to help us understand the family dynamics that can lead to distance and want both parents and adult children can do to create space for healing.
1:34
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk about differentiation, repair, accountability, and why approaching these conversations with curiosity instead of defense in this can make all the difference.
1:45
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're carrying the weight of a fractured relationship with your adult child, I hope this conversation reminds you that while you cannot control another person's choices, you can continue becoming a safe place for connection.
1:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's dive in.
1:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome Rachel.
2:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Pamela.
2:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so happy to be here.
2:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love if you would first of all tell us a little bit about what life looks like for you this summer.
2:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, goodness.
2:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
2:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually really excited for the summer because I have decided to just take a little bit of a step back actually work has been so intense and so busy for me for the past few years.
2:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So I am very proud of myself that I actually established some professional boundaries that are it's giving me a little more time actually with my children.
2:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm about to launch my second child out into the world, and as I've done that, I've realized as all moms do, it's so precious.
2:45
[SPEAKER_00]: The time is so short, so especially with my little nine year old, and then the next one up for her is 14.
2:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I only have really one more child that even wants to spend time with me in the summer.
2:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, and wants to go to the water park or do anything with mom, so I'm really going to save her it.
3:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's my plan.
3:02
[SPEAKER_01]: That's beautiful.
3:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I have five
3:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, mine range from age 25 to 37.
3:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, how are we even here?
3:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It's every cliche is true when when people say it was fast and then the blink of an eye they said it and oh my gosh, is it true?
3:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel I cut sometimes to like, who's life in my living right now?
3:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Something happened.
3:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Where did all my children?
3:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Where did all my small children go?
3:28
[SPEAKER_00]: What it was like?
3:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even understand it.
3:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Wonderful.
3:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been to this topic
3:36
[SPEAKER_01]: grievous, difficult, heartbreaking situation, and yet more and more parents find themselves in this place.
3:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So many moms listening are carrying heartbreak because an adult child has pulled away, or has caught them off completely.
3:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So what are some of the family dynamics that often lead to a strangement that parents may not even recognize?
4:00
[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, on an echo what you said, it is so tremendously important and impactful and painful.
4:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the pain that I see in families with the sorts of ruptures of no contact and a strange event, it's truly some of the most acute suffering.
4:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I have witnessed as a therapist, and they feel very stuck in it.
4:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess to answer your question, what the research shows and in my own clinical work as well, it's often the dynamics, it's the adult children and the parents are actually telling to very different stories.
4:36
[SPEAKER_00]: They have very different understanding.
4:39
[SPEAKER_00]: of what they think led to an Australian event.
4:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's just that right there.
4:43
[SPEAKER_00]: There is a difference in how we are experiencing our relationships and there's not necessarily a meeting of the minds on that and this can be from years of accumulated sort of misunderstandings.
4:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Failure to repair.
4:58
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of families.
5:00
[SPEAKER_00]: We can be very good at arguing.
5:01
[SPEAKER_00]: We can be good at conflict.
5:03
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't necessarily know how to repair well.
5:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's like those I've heard it describe as a death by a thousand paper cuts is what a strain.
5:12
[SPEAKER_00]: family members will say it felt like there's unresolved hurts, there can be values differences, especially ones that emerge over the course of our children's lives as they become adults and form their own separate sense of self and ideas.
5:27
[SPEAKER_00]: There can be difficulties in navigating adulthood.
5:32
[SPEAKER_00]: on the part of an adult child, but also on the part of parents of learning how do we do this thing with an adult who a child who is once our child is now an adult?
5:41
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we manage that separateness and connectedness at the same time?
5:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's never one thing.
5:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It's never one seat, even though it might feel that way, it might feel like there was a straw that broke the camel's back so to speak, it typically layered.
5:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And it certainly, I also want to make sure to mention it's certainly not any one individual's fault.
6:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you're the bad guy here.
6:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You're the one who caused all of this.
6:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It's that typically not the story.
6:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
6:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you're saying it's complex, it's varied, it's nuanced, it's not one thing.
6:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I even had a mom mention the other day because I had a post about it.
6:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It happens over time, like these unresolved issues, these misunderstandings.
6:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And she said, no, it happened suddenly.
6:28
[SPEAKER_01]: The astrangement happens, suddenly, suddenly the child goes, nope, I'm cutting you out.
6:34
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you look behind it, if you peel back the layers, you're like,
6:38
[SPEAKER_01]: We can see that some things we're going on, correct?
6:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
6:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I always begin in my work with individuals with families with the premise that it makes sense.
6:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to start with the idea that this makes sense.
6:53
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean it's right.
6:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean it was the good choice.
6:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean it's what's healthy.
6:58
[SPEAKER_00]: But typically people take action for some set of reasons that makes sense to them.
7:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So what we want to do is get in and understand the meaning making and make sense of it.
7:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean we'll agree with it.
7:11
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah,
7:12
[SPEAKER_00]: it's sometimes I understand it feels like it comes completely out of the blue, but there are always layers there that we want to get in and understand if we have any hope of repairing.
7:24
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so good.
7:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And I gosh, I think it's so interesting and obvious that there are two stories at play and they're so vastly different.
7:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do we overcome that?
7:37
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we bring those stories
7:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it really begins with humility and curiosity.
7:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And so with humility, it's the acknowledgement that I am not always aware of everything all of the time.
7:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's quite possible that I don't see things the way this person sees things, that I have blind spots myself, that I might not be aware of the way the other person is mapping me.
8:06
[SPEAKER_00]: and likewise for the other person as well.
8:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So people being willing to adopt the posture of a little bit of humility.
8:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not quite sure how we got here and I might have a role in that.
8:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I might have a role that's worth examining in that.
8:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I have my ideas at how we got here, what you need to do better, or what you don't understand about me.
8:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But the humility is really the part is I don't think I understand enough about you.
8:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And then curiosity, I think, is the follow-up to that.
8:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I willing to actually get curious enough to find out what it is and be able to tolerate the discomfort of somebody else's perspective?
8:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's so good.
8:49
[SPEAKER_01]: You at the nail on the head right there.
8:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Mom, are you willing to listen to someone else's perspective to your child's perspective?
8:57
[SPEAKER_01]: That is very different from yours.
8:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's really hard because the time these things come out parents very understandable defenses will rise up and it's often justifiably sometimes push back in this idea, but it's just parents lacking accountability and parents lacking enough self awareness and if they could just develop it, then they'll be able to repair everything and it's only the parents responsibility just do this well and if they do, then they'll have a relationship with their adult child.
9:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And in real life, in real relationships that I work with all the time, it's sometimes your kid is coming at you with a sort of fury and criticism and contempt and disrespect, and so all of this is coming at you, so it understandably provokes your defenses.
9:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It also your defenses can feel very provoked as well, even in situations where they're coming gently at something, but it feels like they're missing so much context.
9:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's really understandable that a parent is trying to like, who they want to zoom out and they want to explain.
10:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me give the whole explanation.
10:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it's very understandable, but it typically is a losing strategy if we're actually trying to get our children to the table and to work with
10:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So don't over explain yourself, it's not the answer.
10:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So how can a parent listen to that pain without immediately shutting down or explaining themselves?
10:29
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you do in that situation?
10:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a skill, definitely a skill.
10:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can feel it myself even as a mother.
10:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I use an example of one, my girl's one day were Jokey mom's always late to get us from school or C. She was late to pick up so-and-so-and-so.
10:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to unleash, and I do sometimes, the full tirade of you had no.
10:51
[SPEAKER_00]: If you had any clue what I actually carry in them doing every day.
10:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm juggling 70 different places and who am I doing at Barclay?
11:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and how did we even bring up that I was late?
11:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
11:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll wait.
11:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're right.
11:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think obviously this is a small example.
11:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that for parents.
11:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you feel like you're being accused of far worse than that.
11:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But our tendency nonetheless is to try to give them our big macro perspective of everything.
11:34
[SPEAKER_00]: often and it just washes away that sort of micro thing they were wanting to dress.
11:40
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like we take it and we just go on and I think that's where a lot of the frustrations or accusations of a parent making it all about them.
11:48
[SPEAKER_00]: From it's like we're trying so deeply to get them to understand our perspective, which we believe is fuller.
11:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know anyone who doesn't think they're perspective offering something really important.
12:00
[SPEAKER_00]: and we are putting that ahead of understanding them.
12:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think if you are willing to divest of that need to be understood first or that need to give context as you think it should be there, if you can let go of that and move towards my job is to understand your perspective.
12:23
[SPEAKER_00]: and just stay calm enough so that you will keep sharing it with me.
12:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Because when someone sharing a perspective that we disagree with, it's almost like sirens are going off in a brain.
12:32
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not what happened.
12:33
[SPEAKER_00]: That was not.
12:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not say that.
12:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and so we again, we move into defense mode even when we're trying to listen and we're trying to understand that perspective.
12:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Oftentimes we're signaling verbally or non-verbaly that
12:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's not how that happened or we it just becomes so intolerable.
12:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't sit here and listen to this anymore.
12:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't agree with anything that you're saying.
12:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we move into needing to correct our children.
12:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think if we can learn the distress tolerance of staying grounded and calm.
13:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you absorb and say can I understand your perspective?
13:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Then we get a lot further with our children.
13:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's so good.
13:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So mom, this is it.
13:20
[SPEAKER_01]: when you get the chance to sit down with your adult child, your job is to want to understand them, their perspective, and leaving yours up in the equation and remaining calm.
13:34
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all we have to do, but that is actually it.
13:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very hard to do, and it doesn't mean a lot of parents say when do they care about my perspective?
13:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of times they come in and they say, all right, there's A and there's B.
13:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So my child is B, I am A.
13:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's my job to understand B.
13:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But then when is B gonna understand A?
14:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And who is really right?
14:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe we need to go to a therapist to tell us who it really is.
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: A, R, B.
14:05
[SPEAKER_00]: though I'm going to be the judge of the jury.
14:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's really there is a there's an entirely different process that emerges.
14:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like an emergent process.
14:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't exist unless you try it this way.
14:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That when A truly attempts to understand these defenses often go down and they are often when their defenses go down an opening occurs often that then they are willing to try to hear
14:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And then B starts to pick up and inhabit a little bit of A's perspective, and then C starts to emerge.
14:37
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like something new forms when people are willing to do that.
14:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think a lot of parents understand of Lates don't believe that B ever wants to understand them.
14:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I do all the work to understand, but then they never really want to understand me.
14:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that happens sometimes, but more often not, I think that it's A is really not doing a very good job first of understanding of trying to understand.
15:05
[SPEAKER_00]: We could do it better.
15:07
[SPEAKER_00]: We could work on that and that will often unlock a lot of possibility with our children.
15:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's certain things that they just were never going to understand.
15:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think when it comes to parenting our children, we are always, usually a few decades ahead of them in life and in the experience.
15:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So trying to get them to understand what it like to be us.
15:28
[SPEAKER_00]: what it's like to be in our position at our particular vantage point in life and developmentally and everything that we've gone through.
15:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's too tall of an order to expect that our child can understand it.
15:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And so sometimes we need to speak that validation and understanding elsewhere with the swears.
15:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes the desperate desire to feel understood by our children actually gets in our way.
15:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So we know we're not supposed to be defensive.
15:56
[SPEAKER_01]: We know we're not supposed to share this big picture thing about us, we're supposed to be understanding what are some other common mistakes that moms make in trying to reconnect within the strange adult child.
16:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I think trying to correct the story, instead of understanding the story again, so who quick to move towards correction?
16:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Same things we don't really do, how do I describe this?
16:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes a parent says I just want to listen, but then they're not listening.
16:22
[SPEAKER_00]: There's times where they'll say the right thing, but they're not actually doing it.
16:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do think that gets in our way.
16:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I really think it kind of just comes down to that, attempting to be understood versus trying to understand first is typically the most common mistake that I see a parent make.
16:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think there's what I call contingency ways of relating if I will be the bigger person and I will be mature and grounded about this once this child does this thing and finally acknowledges or then I'll calm down.
16:56
[SPEAKER_00]: learning to actually calm down even in the face of invalidation, learning to be who you are and stand on your integrity, whether that is being validated or not.
17:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really important and it's easy to fall into, I'll kind of be my higher self when they start being a little bit more of their higher self too.
17:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Until then, we're going to fight this out.
17:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a trap that we can fall into
17:24
[SPEAKER_01]: We are the mature ones, so let's be the mature ones.
17:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Our role in that is so important, we get to bring that to the relationship.
17:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and if we're offended and all these things, it's just like, I don't think we can ever repair the relationship if we have the attitude and it's, you're right.
17:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so hard.
17:44
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so very hard.
17:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I ask you a question?
17:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you noticed how dads will spend money on everyone else, but almost never on themselves?
17:53
[SPEAKER_01]: My hobby is definitely one of those guys.
17:55
[SPEAKER_01]: He'll wear something and tell it's practically falling apart before he buys a new one the other day.
18:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, Becca graduated from college more than a decade ago, and he's like, oh, so this father's day, I'm taking matters into my own hands, don't tell him.
18:16
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18:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been looking at the cozy earth bamboo sheetset that everywhere pant and the everyday polo, they're designed to keep him cool, comfortable, and actually relax
18:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, that sounds pretty great to me, and can we talk about those bamboo sheets if you've ever shared a bed with a man who sleeps hot, you already know why they're on my list.
18:42
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18:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you see a post-purchase survey, mention that you heard about it right here on the midlife mama podcast.
18:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Now,
18:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get back to our conversation.
19:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I hear this from moms all the time when our adult children change and they say grew up in the church and now they don't believe in God and perhaps their gay or perhaps their whatever they have different political social economic views and they're such tension.
19:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do we help moms move forward if this is one of the issues that they're like
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, can I circle back first to the last question because there's two more things I thought of that I don't go in one and it will tie into this as well.
19:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the push for fairness is sometimes another trap where a parent is I need to be acknowledged for what I've done I need to be seen in this way I sometimes think that the fairness trap gets in the way because again we put it before understanding the wound or the problem that actually has the child.
19:56
[SPEAKER_00]: making these decisions to distance from us.
19:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's also an urgency.
20:01
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to fix it.
20:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we want to everything to go back the way it was right away or there's just a level of intensity that we come with to these...
20:12
[SPEAKER_00]: attempts to reconcile attempts to have a good conversation with our child, so I think we could calm ourselves, pull back on the urgency, pull back on the need that fairness has to come right away and work way more towards my job as to understand, to be able to really summarize back what you're saying to me accurately and to respond non-deferensively and to get very curious about your experience of our relationship.
20:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But then, okay, I'm happy to move into your next question about.
20:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, good.
20:43
[SPEAKER_01]: That is so good.
20:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
20:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I see that.
20:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen it with moms.
20:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I see it in relationships.
20:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
20:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So good.
20:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can see it, just for the record, I'm not preaching from any place of an ivory tower here.
20:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like this is the real trenches, and this is what our practicing and messing up and trying again and doing forever, really.
21:04
[SPEAKER_00]: We're trying to get better at this.
21:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's easy to describe it.
21:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot harder to put it into practice, but when we do it, it really does unlock really powerful things in our relationship.
21:15
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, you're about, I think it was really,
21:21
[SPEAKER_00]: differences that inevitably arise as our children get older, I think that this is where the power of differentiation really comes in for me.
21:32
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a concept from family psychology.
21:35
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really about our ability to manage separateness and connectedness.
21:40
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what is at the heart of what differentiation is.
21:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think of differentiation a lot like the healthy body system.
21:53
[SPEAKER_00]: A healthy body has separate organs, separate functions, separate manifestations of different things, and yet they stay connected to one another.
22:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, if these organs all insist on being like one another.
22:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So alike, we call that fusion.
22:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the heart needs the liver to act like the heart and think like the heart and be the heart.
22:15
[SPEAKER_00]: then you've got a fusion that ultimately is unsustainable, right, for I help me.
22:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And now in, and if they can't manage a communication or the tension well in up between them, it's like, you can't also live with the heart completely removed from the body or the liver, just completely removed from the body.
22:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's cut off.
22:35
[SPEAKER_00]: That's when we cannot manage our differences, so we completely cut off.
22:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So really healthy differentiation is about how do we do this?
22:43
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we do this separate and connected thing?
22:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've been doing it all along anyways.
22:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Our children, if we've carried them, they're literally fused to us.
22:54
[SPEAKER_00]: They are fused, they are part of us.
22:55
[SPEAKER_00]: They're inside of our bodies.
22:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they differentiate.
22:58
[SPEAKER_00]: They move outside of the body.
22:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And the rest of the lifespan is basically a story of differentiation.
23:04
[SPEAKER_00]: of how can we manage this separateness and connectedness?
23:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think for parents, it's really about asking yourself a few three questions, I think.
23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's first, do I know who I am?
23:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, do I have a sense of what my values are, what my beliefs, what my thoughts are on this specific thing?
23:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And can I manage my anxiety enough to express that, to live that out, to live out my values, to live out my life?
23:32
[SPEAKER_00]: even in the face of difference.
23:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So can I manage my anxiety enough to just do that to be me?
23:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the third question is, can I manage my anxiety when others do the same with me?
23:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the hard part, I think, that when I're just
23:47
[SPEAKER_00]: friend, go to the part where now they have started to form their own thoughts and beliefs, separate from us and they think very different on a lot of things or they're living very differently than maybe my values or how I think about it.
24:01
[SPEAKER_00]: The question is, how am I managing my anxiety about that?
24:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's really a meeting.
24:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like how am I managing myself in the
24:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I can learn to hold on to myself, if I can learn to hold on to my values, to hold on to what matters to me and let them be them, then I'm operated in a plane of higher differentiation, which we know makes for better relationships.
24:28
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want good healthy relationships, you want them to be higher in differentiation, not lower.
24:34
[SPEAKER_00]: you can be in a state of fusion and you might even see families or couples or people that are they're very fused, they're almost like exactly this and we confuse that we sometimes confuse that for health.
24:48
[SPEAKER_00]: cohesion that everyone's operating almost robotically the same often times it's that there's too much anxiety for anyone to be different.
24:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So nobody to create or there's too much relief and punishment that's going to occur in them that there's got their threats of cutoff.
25:06
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a scent that you'll be disowned or
25:09
[SPEAKER_00]: that you won't get loved, be loved anymore if you express this difference.
25:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So sometimes we will be families that seem all in sync with each other and think that is the model of what is health.
25:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think it is actually.
25:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you can share lots of things in common, absolutely.
25:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But differences and tension over differences are not evidence of dysfunction.
25:32
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what families really are.
25:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It's how do we manage our differences?
25:36
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I specifically as a parent, how am I managing my anxiety in the face of my child's difference?
25:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's a... Mama, how are you managing your anxiety in the face of...
25:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, what happens when we come to the place where I'm confident in my values, I know what I believe, and I'm even confident in accepting who you are.
25:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But what happens if a child says, if you don't believe like me, you don't love me.
26:02
[SPEAKER_01]: What does someone with that?
26:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So what's interesting about that one is that's again, that question number three for the adult child of they cannot manage their anxiety in the face of your difference.
26:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you have a choice there as far as
26:19
[SPEAKER_00]: You can try to collapse and be like them and say, okay, I will fuse with you.
26:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I will think the way you need me to think and I will behave the way you need me to behave in order for you to feel loved by me.
26:31
[SPEAKER_00]: But that is not actually love.
26:33
[SPEAKER_00]: That's anxiety and I think there's ways to have conversations about that.
26:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I called the line that we are allowed our thought and we are allowed our belief.
26:44
[SPEAKER_00]: and we are allowed to be who we are.
26:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And where it is showing up behaviorally and is becoming a problem for somebody might be what we need to discuss.
26:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's something about what I'm doing.
26:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a way that I'm treating you?
26:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there something here that's really bothering you?
27:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I can take a look at that and see if there's something here in our values difference.
27:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't actually recommend that families, I don't think it's healthy that we're threatened in each other and saying, if you don't vote this way, if you don't think this way, then you don't love me.
27:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that's actually true.
27:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what they're really saying is I feel too anxious about your difference and I don't know how to coexist with that.
27:22
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, oh god, it's good.
27:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So then what a mom does is then she, does she help their anxiety?
27:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Does she say,
27:32
[SPEAKER_00]: You stay grounded in war and you want to be and how you're going to behave and what does it mean to love this person well and you stay grounded in that given in the faith of their invalidation of it or their tantrum about it or their threat about it.
27:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually don't think you don't need to self betray in order to love your child.
27:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that so much.
27:57
[SPEAKER_01]: That's beautiful.
27:58
[SPEAKER_01]: That's powerful.
27:59
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't need to self betray.
28:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's powerful.
28:04
[SPEAKER_00]: In order for our children to consult, but trade a love as well, right?
28:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, we need to change to be an alignment.
28:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I encourage most parents, I encourage all parents to at some point really communicate to your children.
28:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not need you to be a reflection of me to love you.
28:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not need you to be a reflection of my life, my values, my beliefs, my faith, whatever it is in order for me to love you.
28:32
[SPEAKER_00]: or be proud of you.
28:33
[SPEAKER_00]: We're telling them basically you don't need to self betray either in order to be lovable by me.
28:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And in some families, it's very common that we stop.
28:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We do stop loving our children while when they don't reinforce what we believe is actually lovable.
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's where our children bring us these gifts of growth.
28:54
[SPEAKER_00]: These opportunities really wrestle with what does it mean to actually love someone?
28:59
[SPEAKER_00]: What does it mean to actually parent and love unconditionally across an entire lifespan with someone who is so different than I thought they might be?
29:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's the crux of it.
29:12
[SPEAKER_01]: there.
29:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So for the mom who wants to repair the relationship, where should she begin?
29:18
[SPEAKER_01]: What does she do when, what?
29:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been cut off.
29:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's spiraling and upset.
29:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I know what you're going to say where she begins, but I want you to tell us.
29:29
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
29:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you probably guessed right, Izzy.
29:33
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're ready to adopt the posture of humility and curiosity, that does not mean accepting all the blame.
29:40
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't mean, okay, I'm ready to be a door mat now.
29:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm ready to take my verbal lashings.
29:46
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to accept verbal abuse.
29:48
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to accept abuse of any kind, but am I willing to approach this with genuine humility?
29:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And say,
29:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really know.
29:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really know what's going on between us.
29:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what's happened and I'm open to hearing from you of what you think it is.
30:06
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think happened between us?
30:07
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you needing from me?
30:09
[SPEAKER_00]: What if I missed?
30:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And to do it in a non-letigious way?
30:14
[SPEAKER_00]: What did I miss?
30:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me.
30:15
[SPEAKER_00]: What did I tell you?
30:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't be snarkly.
30:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, you know what I'm snarkly.
30:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Go ahead, I'm all ears.
30:21
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really hard not to kind of move into that posture because we're wounded, too.
30:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Mom's weird, deeply wounded, we're dealing with feelings of betrayal, especially moving cut off.
30:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So, all of those things we have to learn to manage in order to approach if we want to initiate reconciliation and repair.
30:40
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to take humility and curiosity first.
30:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love that humility and curiosity.
30:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just go back to it all the time.
30:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the next thing is self-control, calm your little self.
30:53
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll literally need to learn calming strategies.
30:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so, you can feel your heart rate escalate somewhere a little bit of work individually.
31:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You can do it with a friend, with a therapist, with a counselor, with a pastor, actually practice a little bit of, I think this is what's coming in my way.
31:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I can feel my heart jump up into my throat right away.
31:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel tears coming.
31:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so frustrated.
31:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be able to talk through that maybe with somebody else as well.
31:23
[SPEAKER_00]: First, just to get into the practice of what is it going to be like to have this conversation with my child?
31:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And how am I going to handle the criticisms?
31:31
[SPEAKER_00]: How am I going to handle their invalidation?
31:34
[SPEAKER_00]: How am I going to handle their misunderstandings of me?
31:37
[SPEAKER_00]: It was so hard to sit in the room when you're feeling so deeply misunderstood.
31:44
[SPEAKER_01]: But our goal is to understand first, right?
31:49
[SPEAKER_01]: The goal.
31:50
[SPEAKER_01]: What have you seen help families move from hurt to distance towards trust and connection again?
31:55
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some other things we could do besides humility and curiosity?
32:01
[SPEAKER_00]: the biggest shift is when I stop trying to prove myself and stop trying, I'm just waiting to get my viewpoint in.
32:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the biggest shift.
32:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And when parties are just show some willingness, a lot of times when I work with families, I'll say, it's okay, I can deal with feeling hopeless or hurt or just fearing what I need as willingness, though.
32:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's our people willing, are we willing to try this way?
32:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we willing to learn some communications skills?
32:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we willing to call ourselves in the face of disagreement?
32:35
[SPEAKER_00]: If there's that willingness, there's so many things happen.
32:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes the willingness, it's a little asymmetrical, like one party is more willing than the other party is willing, but if they're at least a little bit of willingness, we can get them worked on.
32:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that is what moves families actually towards repair as when both parties exhibit any level of willingness and then and move towards understanding the other persons perspective first before seeking our seeking to be understood for our own.
33:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
33:09
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the heart of it, willingness.
33:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you willing to do it different?
33:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you willing to calm yourself down?
33:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Be curious, be humble.
33:19
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just so good.
33:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It starts with that.
33:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And it starts with just doing the work.
33:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Like,
33:27
[SPEAKER_01]: We can go to the Lord and we can say, God, I'm gonna need you to help me with this.
33:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm gonna need to change some things about myself.
33:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to change what I value, but the way I approach it with gentleness and weakness and just the desire to understand is huge.
33:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Imagine if our children saw that in us, I bet they would go, oh my gosh, thanks mom.
33:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we've already enough to do with it.
33:54
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so shocking they haven't just before with some parents, and we just roleplay it.
34:00
[SPEAKER_00]: They'll say, I don't know what they'd say.
34:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never said it like that before.
34:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I said, yeah, you might see a little bit of shock and wonder on their face.
34:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll have to set in when it's approached in this manner.
34:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So we can't predict how they're going to respond because we haven't necessarily done it this way before.
34:17
[SPEAKER_00]: But more often than not, gentleness, meekness, curiosity, humility, they unlock, they diffuse defensiveness in our children, and they often unlock a willingness to be a little bit more vulnerable.
34:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe not right away.
34:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there's a lot of hurt when mistrots.
34:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a slow process.
34:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's another thing I'd want to caution parents.
34:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a way that it feels messy.
34:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay that it kind of like in start and stop and I just recently talked to him on that she said, Ding, and I wish I had said that in a lab conversation.
34:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no.
34:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I should have said that.
34:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, no, we're going to have another conversation.
34:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, birthday.
34:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I learned something in that conversation.
34:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can always because she said, I can't go back.
34:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't go back and undo it now.
34:56
[SPEAKER_00]: As we yes, actually you can actually when we go back when we address things that have happened in the past and we approach it with humility and say I really want to say sorry I wish I had said this at the time it's like you are going back in time and correcting it in that moment do not underestimate the value of repair even for something that happened five 10 15 years ago.
35:20
[SPEAKER_00]: just bringing it up and apologizing, we're saying, I really wish I had seen your perspective more clearly in that moment, that can unlock, maybe you could imagine even yourself, come on in a conversation with your own parents.
35:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Could you imagine if sometimes they maybe went back and, hey, I want to just, I know it's been a while, but this was on my mind and I'm really sorry about it.
35:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, it's sometimes just in a moment, we'll dissolve a lot of her in pain
35:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
35:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I've seen it.
35:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Amazing.
35:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I will leave it.
35:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that Rachel.
35:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to thank you for being here today.
35:55
[SPEAKER_01]: It's such practical tips.
35:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But.
35:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so hard to do with this.
36:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just tenderness and this willingness to understand and not share your story.
36:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't make it about you.
36:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's make it about understanding our adult child.
36:11
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where it starts.
36:12
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's going to take time.
36:13
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not one is that one and done.
36:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like you're going to have multiple conversations.
36:18
[SPEAKER_01]: and level of healing with each if we maintain this posture that you recommend of curiosity and willingness and humility.
36:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this.
36:28
[SPEAKER_00]: and sometimes feels first before it feels better.
36:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's okay to do in it this way sometimes you're coming away and you're like I feel less understood than ever.
36:36
[SPEAKER_00]: But my child feels like the conversation went really well.
36:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's good.
36:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That's good.
36:42
[SPEAKER_00]: We're moving towards re-establishing trust for them and parents will sometimes feel like but I'm not even in the room.
36:48
[SPEAKER_00]: When I don't even feel like it says don't make it all about me but there's no me there and I
36:54
[SPEAKER_00]: actually say you are there, you are modeling what it looks like to be a grounded, adult, a parent who's capable of seeking to understand your child before you feel understood.
37:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the huge gesture of integrity as a parent.
37:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
37:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Love it.
37:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
37:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love it Rachel, if you could tell our listeners where they can find you online and do you have any resources
37:23
[SPEAKER_00]: One small group's actually from others who are navigating a strangement or distance with an adult child.
37:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like a three month series that we all spend in small groups together.
37:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So I open up that cohort about three times a year.
37:36
[SPEAKER_00]: They can find out that information on my website.
37:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It's RachelHawk.com.
37:41
[SPEAKER_00]: My last name looks like hack HAACK, but it's RachelHawk.com.
37:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm also on sub-stack and I'm actually trying to spend a little bit more time there
37:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And then on Instagram, my name at Rachel Hawke, and yeah, that's what I could find me.
37:58
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.
37:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
37:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I pronounced her name wrong.
38:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more or better every day does.
38:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I already have no faith.
38:04
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not a really good thing.
38:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Mama, if today's conversation encouraged you, I hope that you will remember this.
38:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Healing often begins when with one person choosing humility, empathy, and the willingness to learn.
38:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You may not be able to force reconciliation with your adult child, but you can continue growing, listening well, and trusting God with the parts of the story that you cannot change.
38:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's your coaching tip of the week.
38:31
[SPEAKER_01]: In each episode, I will give you one actionable step to improve your life.
38:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember, you can't change everything, but you can take one step to be better.
38:39
[SPEAKER_01]: This week, I just want you to lean into curiosity.
38:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead of defending yourself or trying to make yourself seed, get curious and seek to understand.
38:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Start thinking about that.
38:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Thinking about when you can have the conversation and then what that would look like, find a friend in practice.
38:58
[SPEAKER_01]: You can practice with me.
38:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I am available.
39:03
[SPEAKER_01]: If you know another mom who's walking through a strangement or struggling with a complicated relationship with her adult child, would you share this episode with her?
39:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe it will help her feel less alone, and if you're looking for personalized support as you navigate the empty nest or the challenging relationship with your adult child, I'd love to walk alongside you.
39:21
[SPEAKER_01]: You can apply for coaching through the link in the show note.
39:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Grace and Peace Mama, you've got this, and God Scott You.
39:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for spending time with me on the Midlife Mama Podcast.
39:31
[SPEAKER_01]: My hope is that you leave each episode feeling encouraged, grounded, and clearer.
39:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Clearer about what you're feeling, what God may be stirring in you, and how to move forward in the season of the empty nest.
39:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Through these conversations, I'm not just sharing stories, I'm coaching you, helping you name what's happening beneath the service, challenging the thoughts that keep you stuck and take intentional steps toward peace and confidence as a midlife mom.
39:58
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're ready to go deeper in one personalized coaching support, I invite you to apply for coaching.
40:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Coaching is a focused one-on-one space where we work together to gain clarity,
40:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Process emotions and discern what God is calling you to in this next chapter.
40:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll find the application linked in the show notes and let's stay connected.
40:18
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find me on Instagram at P-Hinkleman, that's P-H-E-N-K-E-L-M-A-N, or on Facebook at Pamela Hinkleman, Emptinessed Coach.
40:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to figure out the season alone, Mama.
40:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Support and direction are possible, and I'm here when you're ready.