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Imposter Syndrome- The Thing You Probably Have But Don't Know the Name · Millennial Mental Health Channel

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All right, Eddie, give me your most rambunctious, your most loud,
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your most energetic. Welcome to MMHC. That you got. This is Millennial
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Mental Health Channel. I'm doctor Justin Romano, a Child and Adolescent psychiatry fellow,
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and I'm Edikoreo, a licensed clinical therapist. Our podcast is here because
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we wanted to start a much need to conversation about mental health. Our goal
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is to teach you as much as we can by sharing our own experiences and
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interviewing experts in the mental health field. We will discuss topics like mood disorders,
0:32
psychotic disorders, substance use, personality disorders, and many more. Millennial
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Mental Health Channel buy Millennials for everyone. We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
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MMHC is a production of Speaker from iHeartMedia Me I hearr. We're back.
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Welcome to MMHC. It's time, the time you've been waiting for. I'm
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hyped, your hyped. Turn this shit up. Sorry, I appreciate it.
1:03
That was great. I feel like, for some reason, I really
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want to watch the Jake Paul Mike Tyson fight. Now. I don't know
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why that got me in the mood. Oh that ship's going to be so
1:15
bad. Okay, that's fair. That's fair rooting for Tyson. I think
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that's that's gonna be fun to watch. Yeah, shout outs. What shout
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outs do we have? Not, Jake Paul, I'll tell you that.
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Just shout out to everyone listening. We're happy to be back. We took
1:37
a little bit of like a break. We're back, We're excited to be
1:40
back. Just thank you for bearing with us and and being patient and letting
1:44
us come to you live from whatever listening receptacle you have, whether it's your
1:49
car, your headphones, a Bluetooth speaker. Thanks for letting us join you.
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Yeah, and I want to give a shout out to Eddie because the
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reason why we took a little break is because our record did not go well
2:00
last time. And when Yeah, I had like an audio problem. I've
2:06
changed a bunch of equipment around and it wasn't quite working the way we wanted
2:09
it to and I kind of lost it. I was like, no,
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darned, I can't believe it. A half hour wasted of all this recording
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time. And Eddie was like, Okay, it's okay, we're gonna be
2:20
fine. We're gonna get through this. He was my emotional support friend during
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my little freak out. So thank you, thank you my friend. Of
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course that's what we're here for. Well, for today's episode, we're going
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to talk about imposter syndrome. It comes up a lot. It's something that
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I've thought about. Even what am I at almost seven years post graduation into
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being a therapist, I still think about and I think I will, like
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on Reddit, if I'm like on the therapist subreddit and people will talk about
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it. My first reaction is to be like, oh, it's not that
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bad, like calm down, whatever. But then I really think about it,
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I'm like, oh no, like this is like legit. And sometimes
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it still gets me. And I know, like we're not the only profession
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that experiences it. I think at any time when your job and responsibility is
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to help other people, there's some nervousness. There's a fear that goes into
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it. You know. I think a lot of professions, whether it's doctors,
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nurses, teachers, social workers, the idea of being responsible for someone
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else is scary. It's daunting. It really makes you think about your choices
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and how you react with them and how you communicate with them. I think
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one thing that comes to mind is for me when I first graduated, was
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this constant idea of like, how can I help other people when I don't
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always feel like I can help myself. Oftentimes I'll be working with like a
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teen client or a family, and I'm trying to help them make improvements.
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I'm trying to problem solved, have some action steps, just think things through,
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reach their treatment goals, whatever it is. And then I'll think to
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myself, like I should be listening to myself because there are some things that
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I can be working on. Way back when sleep was the big one,
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I would always tell teens like, oh, you gotta sleep more, Let's
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fix sleep hygiene, blah blah blah, and then I'd fall asleep with the
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TV on, or I'd fall asleep with my phone in my hand, and
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I was not I was not doing a good job. I think it's also
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just important to acknowledge that imposter syndrome can impact anyone new mental health professionals,
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old mental health professionals, all mental health professionals, all of us. It
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impacts all of us. And I know just some things that have been helpful
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for me, things like peer consult has been helpful along the way strong support
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from supervisors. But I also know not everyone has access to that. So
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I think one of our biggest hopes and the idea of today's episode was just
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being able to talk about it, talk where it comes from, what are
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some symptoms of it, how do we fight against it, and just any
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other information we should know. So that that's the reason for today, We're
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going to give you an official definition. According to the National Institutes of Health,
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so imposter syndrome, which we may or may not abbreviate to ISS,
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is a behavioral health phenomena described as self doubt of intellect, skills, or
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accomplishments among high achieving individuals. These individuals cannot internalize their success and subsequently experienced
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pervasive feelings of self doubt, anxiety, depression, and or apprehension of being
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exposed as a fraud in their work, despite verifiable and objective evidence of their
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successfulness, and the terms imposter syndrome and impost phenomena are used interchangeably, with
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IP an impost phenomenon gaining more frequent use in recent literature. Fun fact,
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while while imposter syndrome is commonly researched experience for sure and as a pervasive phenomenon,
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there is an unknown true prevalence, so we really don't know how common
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it is. We can throw numbers out, but there's just really not a
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good way of finding that out. Currently, there is no formal or widely
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accepted medical definition. I think like DSM five criteria or DSM five tr text
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revised. There is no diagnosable criteria. But despite the lack of a formal
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definition, there are six original criteria that are identified by klants. There's a
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researcher who wrote a lot of the stuff we're going to talk about today that's
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been expanded upon since its inception and could be summarized as the following constellation of
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interrelated characteristics that may or may not be present present in the individual with imposter
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syndrome. That was a mouthful, but basically, these are the things that
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can be identified as someone who has imposter syndrome, and we'll define all of
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them. The first is imposter cycle, second is perfectionism. We have super
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heroism, chophobia, taitophobia. I've had two weeks to practice this and I'm
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still gonna mess it up. A denial of competence, and then the made
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up onemophobia. So many great words, and I saw a okay, a
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titch a phobia, and I have no recollection of saying this do weeks ago
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it looked like a completely brand new word to me. I'm that's still not
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real. So Number one that Eddie had mentioned is the impostor cycle, which
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is basically this cycle is where either the individual begins to work on something and
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immediately feels that they have to work harder than others, thus making them an
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impostor where they procrastinate to the point where they feel they will be exposed as
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a fraud. In both of these scenarios, even the completion of a task
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is not enough to enjoy the successful feeling. Number two is perfectionism, which
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is perfectionism the individual feels like being perfect is the only way to prove they're
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not a fraud. This can lead to things like unrealistic expectations. If you
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have a ton of unrealistic expectations and you don't meet them, oftentimes you'll start
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to really it'll start to really impact your self esteem and your self worth.
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So if you have this list of like I have to do this, this,
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this, and this, or I have to achieve this this and this,
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and you're not able to do all of it really starts to have it
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really starts to wear down on your mental health. Up next, we have
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super heroism, which is characterized by over preparation, which then in terms poorly
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impacts the individual's mental health. I have somewhat of an example of this to
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where I used to want to be a surgeon, and on your general surgery
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rotation you have to do really well. I had somewhat of a sense of
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imposter syndrome because I didn't really feel like I fit quite in with the surgeons,
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and so I am over prepared. I tried so hard, and I
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was staying up all night reading surgery books and trying to be prepared look good
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in front of my attendings to the point of not sleeping, to the point
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of feeling stressed out and sad and depressed, which I don't think I'm at
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full clinical criteria for depression. But that was some of that super heroism,
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trying as hard as I possibly could to fit in, to meet those expectations,
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to feel like I belonged. That's real. Thank you for sharing,
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dude. Next one is fear of failure or the a type of phobia,
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teach you phobia or whatever phobia. Look at the show notes. So it's
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the fear of failure, which is just what it sounds like. So other
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pieces to this include worry that by quote failing, that others will take this
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as an opportunity to shame us. That was one thing that was interesting to
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me, Like as I was reading it, I didn't think about that part,
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like the fear of if I mess up now people are gonna start making
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fun of me or shaming me, and that's gonna lead to the just more
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of this feeling of being an imposture. And that's something I do a lot
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too. I think if I can't express myself, well, if I don't
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know what I'm talking about, then people are just gonna turn on me and
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say like, well, you don't know what you're talking about and start exposing
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me as a fraud. And someone who doesn't know what they're talking think about
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Yeah, I'm realizing I've got pretty significant imposters because I got a lot of
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these up. Next, we have denial of competence and capability, the belief
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that we have no natural ability to be successful, and the very last one
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achievemophobia or the fear of success is the worry of doing things correctly to the
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point that the individual is worried that it would lead to additional work to the
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already pre existing work that they have. So basically, if I keep being
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successful, I will get more work. If I get more work, I
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will work so hard to try to over prepare for all this work. I
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don't think I'll be able to handle all of it, and ultimately I will
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feel like an impostor. So all of these things combined can have larger impacts
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on our overall well being. And I would argue that maybe a certain level
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of imposter syndrome is not a bad thing, because some of those seem really
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bad, like the fear of success denying your own capability, but sometimes the
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fear of failing the one the perfectionism, the superheroism can get you to work
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really hard and get you to know a topic really well and prepare incredibly hard
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for a specific task. So maybe it is somewhat of a spectrum like most
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things in mental health, and a little bit of imposter syndrome not a bad
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thing. You know, Okay, this is gonna be like a weird like
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and I'm not trying to like flex or anything. But there was a point
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in time when I was in college playing football. It was after my sophomore
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year that I did have this like semi intense fear of not doing well enough
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and like basically failing, like not being a good enough player. That it
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really was like one of the forefront of the ideas every time I would like
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go to a workout or go to lifting or go to practice of like I
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have to do these things or else I'm gonna fail and I'm not going to
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be good enough if I don't go to like an extra workout, like I'm
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just gonna suck if I So, like all these things happen, and then
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the last two years in college ended up being like my two better years,
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like my best seasons overall. So I think that is that's a good point.
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Like having a little bit of like fear of and like thinking like oh
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I'm going to fail or I am an imposture, I don't belong here actually
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did help me a little bit, should help me a lot. So that
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is a good point. In psychiatry and mental health, we talk about this
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idea of you stress or true stress, so that a little bit of anxiety,
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a little bit of stress is a good thing. If you had no
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anxiety, if you didn't get stressed about anything, you probably wouldn't achieve very
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much in our society. Like test is coming up, I'm not too worried
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about it, but a little bit of stress says, Okay, I want
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to do well on that. I don't want to fail. I want to
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do I want to do well. So I can keep going to the next
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objective and can get you to motivate and get you to do well on those
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things. So yeah, maybe a little bit of a stress a thing can
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be a good thing, a bit of a spectrum. So with all the
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information, what are we supposed to do? How do we make this better?
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Well? The National Institute of Health suggests things like self reflection, psychotherapy,
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and practicing gratitude as things that you can do to help yourself. There
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was also a study that suggested that compassionate and well connected supervision can serve as
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a way to fight against imposter syndrome. And I will take this opportunity to
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shout out my boy Tony. He was my very first clinical supervisor after I
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graduated. Huge huge support we worked for. He was a part time employee
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for the County that I worked at the rest of the time, he would
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do like supervision and his own private practice stuff, and he would tell me
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all the time, like, yes, I am employed by the county,
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but I am here for you. I am your supervisor. Anytime I had
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supervision with him, I always looked forward to it because I knew I would
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leave feeling better. Group supervision was awesome too, once a month with my
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coworkers and him, Like Tony's the man. I still talk to him to
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this day if I have questions about things, He's always willing to answer shout
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out telling you for all. Like having that kind of supervision was super helpful
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for me early on. Yeah, it's so nice to have someone that you
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trust and you look up to show you and tell you that you're doing what
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you should be doing, that you're where you should be. Going back to
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my terrible surgery rotation I was talking about earlier in my feedback, at the
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end of that, they said I needed constant validation, which I don't think
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is me. It's nice to know when you got something right, or nice
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to know if you're doing something right, just so you have that positive feedback
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of like, Okay, I'll keep going. I'll keep doing it this way.
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But I think they were just mad at millennials and angry old doctors,
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angry old surgeons and wanted to take it out on their medical students. So,
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yeah, this is my time to heal from that bad head. It
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was a pretty toxic Everyone always has bet or not everyone, but a lot
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of medic students have bad horror stories about surgery rotations. And I had a
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pretty bad one too. Yeah. So an article from the American Psychological Association
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has seven tips that can help. The first two are learning the facts,
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so learning the facts about where you should be, what you should be doing,
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and then also sharing your feelings. Expressing some of the stuff. Getting
15:13
out of your head a little bit can be an important part of processing where
15:16
you are in your process. Sharing your feelings, just putting them out there,
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not keeping it to yourself is also super important. I talk to students
15:24
all the time when they come to my office. Oftentimes they have gotten to
15:30
their like almost breaking point of like Wow, I really need to talk to
15:33
somebody, And I tell them like, if you can do this earlier in
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the process and we can talk before you get to this point, I think
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it'll go a long way in helping you. And I think, I mean
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I struggle with that part too. I know a lot of people struggle with
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that of just sharing what is on their mind openly and not just keeping it
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to themselves. Yeah, and that's a big part of the mindfulness aspect of
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all this. I've been on a big mindfulness kick lately where you need to
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understand how your brain be mindful of those patterns that you fall into, and
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if you can create an intervention at the beginning of the pattern instead of letting
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it linger on and get to the bad part where you need to talk to
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someone, that's a really good way to try and help control your feelings and
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emotions. So the next one it celebrates your success. So like, just
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celebrate it, be happy about it, share it with people, be open
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and just take in the success. But I do have to share this back
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in the day, I don't know if you ever looked at this justin it
16:32
is like, damn, this might actually be a long time ago. This
16:36
might have been like twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen, twenty sixteen ish. DJ
16:41
Khaled would post on his snaptest story all the time and like, to me,
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this was like I had to watch it because it just I just enjoyed
16:48
it. And he would do the same thing every day. He'd walk into
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the kitchen in the morning, he'd see his private chef, like, chef,
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what was for breakfast? And then the chef would be like, oh,
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we got some egg whites, some turkey sausage, some fruit, and
17:03
some water. He's like, yeah, bless up turkey, bacon, turkey
17:08
sausage, egg whites. And then because at the same time he had,
17:12
like he probably still does, how to deal with with serrac, the alcohol,
17:18
he would have a bottle of apple sarac on the table and then he
17:21
would include I don't think he'd have it with his breakfast, but he would
17:23
include it with his breakfast and he would say, an apple sarac celebrates success.
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So it just reminded me of like he would celebrate every morning that he
17:33
had apple sarac with him. So, if anything, that should just remind
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us we can celebrate the little things in life. I like that, you
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know, a good breakfast, you should celebrate that success. Yeah, if
17:45
you got a roof over your head, Hey, even if you don't have
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a roof over your head, you got some things to be just to celebrate
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some things you've done well in life. Basal, we have letting go of
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perfectionism, which can be a really hard thing because I feel like our society
18:00
really values perfectionism and wants people to be perfectionistic in a lot of ways,
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but it can but get really toxic and really bog you down. And then
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next one we have cultivating self compassion, which is another thing I feel like
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we struggle within our society. We feel like we need to sacrifice ourselves for
18:21
our business, sacrifice ourselves for our kids, sacrifice ourselves for our relationships.
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But it's important to have compassion for yourself and understand that you have needs and
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you need to take care of yourself too. Back real quick to the perfectionism
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part you talked about, like society's role and perfectionism, I think society also
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puts a lot of stock into like results and like getting like accomplishments. So
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it feels like if we're not doing things or if we're not accomplishing things,
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we're not doing enough. Yeah, and I think that's that's a cultural piece
18:51
that we struggle with. So just a thought. One of the last couple
18:56
of things that the APA talks about as far as a tip for against imposter
19:00
syndrome, sharing your failures and making it normal to talk about those things and
19:04
to understand that like mess ups, failures happen, mistakes happen. Being able
19:11
to own up to them and share about them is really important in the healing
19:15
process. And kind of along similar lines is just accepting what's going on.
19:18
It's the first part of act acceptance and commitment therapy. Just being able to
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accept what is, be mindful of the present moment, see what's in front
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of us, take it all in, accept it, and figure out ways
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to move forward from it. Yeah. Even just knowing what it is,
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what the definition is, how many people struggle with it is all important things.
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I remember not really even hearing about imposter syndrome until medical school, and
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then a lot of the people in my medical school were like, yeah,
19:45
that's me. I feel like maybe I don't belong here, maybe I don't
19:48
work well enough here. So yeah, just being aware of it so that
19:52
we can understand how it's impacting us can help us get through it and work
19:56
through it too. Eddie, I know I talked a little bit about myself,
20:00
but have you ever dealt with imposter syndrome. One time that came to
20:03
mind was actually early on with the podcast, back in like twenty nineteen early
20:07
twenty twenty, before COVID, where just this idea of like why would anyone
20:15
even want to listen to what I'm talking about? Like am I just gonna
20:18
sound dumb? Do I even know what I'm talking about? And it wasn't
20:21
really until an early episode into the series of like we talked about something and
20:27
I said something of like in my expert opinion, and I was like,
20:30
well, I don't know about expert and then you like stopped there like like,
20:33
no, you are an expert, Like we both are experts, Like
20:36
we do this for our job. It's like, fuck, that's a good
20:38
point. We do we do do this, this is what we do,
20:42
Like this is okay to have our own personal professional opinion. And that really
20:48
helped a lot, I think maybe sometimes still today with work, you know,
20:52
being one of the only licensed therapists in the whole school district and like
20:56
being called upon as an expert in a lot of cases, a lot of
21:00
things going on, sometimes I'll think to myself, like fuck, do I
21:03
really know what's happening? Do I really like understand what's going on. But
21:06
in those moments, it just reminds me to take a step back. I
21:10
don't have to just give a singular answer to whatever is happening. I can
21:14
take all the information in and with the skill set I've developed of like taking
21:18
in individual situations, looking at all the pieces, I can come up with
21:22
something from there and we can figure it out as we go. But I
21:26
think those are two that stick out for sure early on in the podcast and
21:29
then still now to this day. But also being reminded of like I do
21:33
have the skill set to problem solve even in the middle of crisis situations,
21:38
I do still have that skill set. And I think it's also important to
21:41
realize that even as an expert, you don't have to know everything. I
21:47
think it's really important because I think a lot of experts or a lot of
21:49
professionals, if they're faced with a question where they can either like if they
21:53
don't know the question or don't know the answer, they can either be s
21:57
their way out of it or just say, hey, I don't know,
22:00
but I'm going to look into it and find out. I feel like a
22:03
lot of people just bes their way through it, and like that's hell.
22:07
Yeah, yeah, that's a very common thing that happens every day in the
22:11
United States. So it's okay, And it shows humility to say, I
22:15
don't know, but that's a great question, and I'm going to try and
22:18
find out. Yeah, well, then it's my turn to ask you question.
22:22
If you if you had a call, you had somebody that was having
22:26
a hard time and they were struggling with imposter syndrome, how would you talk
22:30
to them? I would say the same thing that my med school told me
22:33
when I first got into medical school. Yeah, they taught us about imposter
22:36
syndrome, and then they reinforced the message of if you are here, then
22:40
you deserve to be here, like you made it. We want you here.
22:44
We don't want you to fail out. We want to see you successful,
22:48
So you deserve to be here. So reinforcing some of that positive self
22:52
talk. And I know in the past we've talked about squashing the gnats negative
22:57
automatic thoughts, and so it's okay to have those thoughts. I always say
23:03
it's okay to have any thought, but it's not okay to believe all of
23:07
them. Sometimes you have to fight some of those thoughts. You have to
23:10
push back and say, like, do I really deserve to be here?
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Am I an imposter? You say no, I fought hard to be here.
23:15
I deserve to be here. I'm smart enough I can do this.
23:19
How about yourself? Also, instead of not to say oh yeah, yeah,
23:27
I mean I think we're talking with the colleague, is reminding them that
23:32
if the roles were reversed and they were talking to someone that they felt was
23:36
struggling with imposter syndrome, most likely they'd be pretty compassionate, pretty supportive,
23:41
and have some empathy for that person. So I would just challenge them to
23:44
have some empathy for themselves, to remind themselves that the same thing, Like
23:48
you would be one hundred percent supportive of me if I was struggling, and
23:51
I want you to try to have that same support for yourself. I like
23:53
that now. I did meet one person in my career where we were talking
23:59
about imposter syndrome and she was like, you know, I just never really
24:03
got imposter syndrome, never really felt that way. And she was awesome.
24:07
She was a great doctor, incredibly competent and confident. So I just thought
24:12
that was so funny. It seems like almost everyone I meet has some level
24:17
of imposter syndrome, but not shout out doctor Hicker, because she was a
24:22
very good note or someone I really looked up to, and just like I
24:26
loved hearing the fact that she's like, you know, Nope, never felt
24:29
it. Never have you ever felt Have you ever met anyone that you like
24:36
didn't have any imposter syndrome? Or I don't think so at least not like
24:41
not like that. Yeah, everyone's got a little bit of like not entirely
24:48
sure, but I guess not everybody. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, let's
24:53
talk about some pop culture, some famous people who have come out and also
24:57
said that they struggle with him post syndrome. Number one is Bellahadied. Now
25:03
I only really know her as Justin Bieber's wife's friend. She's also a model.
25:11
Does she do other stuff? I think? I think she was on
25:15
a TV show Kevy's gonna give me a ship for this? There was like
25:18
a Netflix show. I'm pretty sure she was on it, Hold on Bill
25:23
Netflix? Yeah, next in fashion, there we go. She was like
25:27
a host on it. I'm pretty sure it was her. It was with
25:30
her her sister. Either way, very famous. That's one of the hadds
25:37
up Next we have Lupita Neongo, the female actress who has been in a
25:42
lot of excellent movies including Star Wars, Black Panther. This is Us,
25:48
yep or us that this is Us, This is Us is the TV show
25:53
was a very different media. Yeah. Us the Georgie in pul film.
26:00
Very good movie. Kind of confusing because it's too intellectual for me, but
26:03
it was good. Yeah. Next is Emma Watson, who you all know
26:08
as Hermione from the Harry Potter series. That one was surprising to me because
26:14
it's like, as I've read the books, she seems like the only person
26:18
who could be Hermione, So it's like, it's interesting to me that she
26:22
I think in the article she mentioned feeling like she didn't fully fit in with
26:26
everybody, even though I had a hard time imagining that up. Next,
26:30
we have Michelle Obama, which, Yeah, this one was super surprising because
26:34
what hasn't she's done. She's had a super successful career, but even someone
26:40
on top of the world like that can feel imposter syndrome. Wolfgang Puck is
26:45
the famous celebrity chef who has a restaurant probably on every block in Las Vegas.
26:51
Yeah, one of the most successful chefs. Ellie Goulding, the British
26:56
singer pop star who I actually love her music, and that Halicon album that
27:02
she had in the early two thousands with Lights, such a good album.
27:06
So I think it was largely inspired by her breakup with Calvin Harris, so
27:11
good breakup album. Calvin broke so many hearts inspired a lot of good music.
27:18
And the last one on our list is Tom Hanks, the very successful
27:22
Tom Hanks. He doesn't need just like everybody else on the list, they
27:25
don't need too much of an introduction. But Tom Hanks talked about having a
27:27
hard time with success and feeling like it was warranted and like it was deserving
27:33
for him. Who's the biggest surprise to you on this list? Oh,
27:37
that's a good question. I'm you know, looking at it. I don't
27:42
know. I think I think the good thing is when I do when we
27:47
do look up lists like this of like people who have dealt with whatever our
27:49
topic is for the episode, I don't get a surprise anymore because I think
27:55
a lot of people are a lot more open about their struggles, which I
27:57
think is cool. So I think that makes it a little easier. But
28:00
if I just took a peek at it, like real quick. Maybe Emma
28:03
Watson that was the one, especially because she said she felt like she didn't
28:07
belong with the rest of like in the series, like that just felt so
28:10
like wrong. You can't imagine anyone else being doing Hermione's role Justice, So
28:15
yeah, maybe that one absolutely for me. Tom Hanks, like yeah,
28:22
top of the World, Best Actor Academy Award, Like he's done everything,
28:26
he's been in everything. You can't really be a bigger actor than Tom Hanks,
28:33
and even he struggles with imposter syndrome. So yeah, I'd say if
28:37
we have one take home message, or at least my take home message for
28:41
today, is that imposter syndrome is an incredibly real thing, and I'm sure
28:45
a lot of you out there listening have thought about it, have struggled with
28:48
it, feel like maybe you're not quite good enough, that you don't deserve
28:52
to be where you are. But please understand that if you were there,
28:56
you deserve to be there, and you worked hard to get there, and
29:00
these things aren't mistakes. That this is a really common phenomenon and even some
29:03
of the most successful people in the world feel that way too. Could have
29:07
said it better myself. So we're gonna end with that. Thank you more
29:11
friend, Thank you all for listening. Like always, Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
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It's a nice it's a nice website. Thank you all for listening,
29:45
Thank you all all the time. Thank you, and as always, take
29:48
care of y'all. Mentals.