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🎧 What the NHL gets wrong about women · Open Tabs

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Hi, guys.
0:01
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Tuesday's Open Tabs,
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SPEAKER_02: our twice-weekly Substack Live,
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SPEAKER_02: where we talk about the stories taking up space in our tabs,
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SPEAKER_02: our feeds, and our brains.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: Hi, memes.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: Hi, Megan.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Hello.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: So, as always,
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SPEAKER_02: we have a couple fun topics to chat through,
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SPEAKER_02: so I'm just going to jump straight into it.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: The first one, I think this is super interesting.
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SPEAKER_02: The NHL,
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SPEAKER_02: National Hockey League,
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SPEAKER_02: is releasing its own fan fiction because of the recent boom in hockey romance,
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SPEAKER_02: and they're calling it Hot for Hockey.
0:41
SPEAKER_02: And they're rolling out romance novel-inspired short stories starring actual
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SPEAKER_02: players,
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SPEAKER_02: like real players from the league, and they're releasing them on audio platforms.
0:53
SPEAKER_02: And they've partnered with hockey romance authors that have like full novels released.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: So the authors,
1:02
SPEAKER_02: I believe,
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SPEAKER_02: are both writing and narrating them,
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SPEAKER_02: but the stories are centered around actual players in the league.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: I know.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: I thought that was...
1:14
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you guys remember this.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: Hockey, obviously, like Heated Rivalry blew up last year, I want to say 2025.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: And I feel like hockey has always had...
1:26
SPEAKER_02: There have always been a lot of romance novels about hockey,
1:29
SPEAKER_02: but it really blew up last year with Heated Rivalry.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: And I remember on TikTok, there was a thing where these...
1:37
SPEAKER_02: Booktalkers would go to NHL games and have crude signs up about players.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: And they were writing fanfiction about actual players and players had to come out
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SPEAKER_02: and say, please stop.
1:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm married.
1:51
SPEAKER_02: I have a wife.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: This is uncomfortable.
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SPEAKER_02: This is my workplace.
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SPEAKER_02: And you're putting up these sexually explicit signs.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I was so shocked to see them Using real players when it's already been
2:05
SPEAKER_02: a problem with these parasocial fanfics happening and they've spoken out against it.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: So it's odd that they're leaning into it now.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: That's the weird part to me that when this whole drama happened,
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SPEAKER_00: there was one booktucker specifically named Kiera who kind of took the brunt of
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SPEAKER_00: the criticism for like sexualizing one hockey player.
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SPEAKER_00: And the NHL,
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SPEAKER_00: who up until that point had been super commenting on her stuff and super into
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SPEAKER_00: the whole thing,
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SPEAKER_00: just immediately distanced themselves and were like,
2:35
SPEAKER_00: we don't condone this and we don't agree with her.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: And so for them to do this complete 180 and kind of take the same concept
2:41
SPEAKER_00: and scale it, it's kind of strange.
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SPEAKER_00: And I also hope they have explicit permission from all of the players
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SPEAKER_00: who are involved in this and that they're made aware that they're entering kind
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SPEAKER_00: of sexualization territory.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I find this to be very odd.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't totally like this idea at all.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I was smiling along and then I hear you say that.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: The fact that it's based on real players doesn't make any sense to me.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know why it feels so off.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: It's like also because in like today's world, again,
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SPEAKER_01: we talk about the account like sports-ish and how there's like more of
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SPEAKER_01: a women's gaze on professional sports.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: And so like, and like people like the real stuff,
3:42
SPEAKER_01: you know, like if anything, it's like, can we learn more about the players?
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SPEAKER_01: Can we learn more about their families?
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SPEAKER_01: Can we learn more about their relationships or like hobbies and like
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SPEAKER_01: who they are off the ice, I guess.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know, like,
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SPEAKER_01: I feel like the way in to do this maybe would have been more like,
4:04
SPEAKER_01: from the NHL perspective,
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SPEAKER_01: let the writers use, like,
4:13
SPEAKER_01: each team and, like, do, like,
4:16
SPEAKER_01: a fiction-inspired story and, like,
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SPEAKER_01: Maybe they can be inspired by existing players,
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SPEAKER_01: but we don't have to be literal with it, like using their names or anything.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: I could almost see a fandom being like, oh my god, that's definitely so-and-so.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: Oh no, that's definitely so-and-so.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
4:36
SPEAKER_01: And kind of trying to guess.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: But to make it... Yeah, this feels like, I don't know, like wrong.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's really interesting.
4:49
SPEAKER_02: There are a few things that people are uncomfortable with.
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SPEAKER_02: Obviously, we talked about the real players, the parasocialness of
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SPEAKER_01: it all.
4:56
SPEAKER_02: I think, Melissa, it's a really good point about them.
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SPEAKER_02: And I haven't listened to, I think they're rolling them out.
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SPEAKER_02: I think they've maybe released one or two.
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SPEAKER_02: I haven't listened yet, but I heard it's like, And they're like,
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SPEAKER_02: Okay, well,
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SPEAKER_02: it's not that women are just,
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SPEAKER_02: like you said,
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SPEAKER_02: women may be interested in hockey romance,
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SPEAKER_02: but there are also a lot of women who are interested in the sport of hockey for
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SPEAKER_02: the sport of it.
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SPEAKER_02: And also like heated rivalry, these fanfics and romance novels about hockey.
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SPEAKER_02: It's a very idealized version of the world of hockey
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SPEAKER_02: where these men are all feminists and there are queer people.
6:00
SPEAKER_02: And it's like very open and friendly where the NHL has like shut down a lot of that.
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SPEAKER_02: And it's, you know, it's dominated by white straight men.
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SPEAKER_02: And I don't think there's A player in the NHL who has come out.
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SPEAKER_02: I think minor league hockey players have, but I don't think an NHL player has so far.
6:21
SPEAKER_02: And they've canceled Pride Nights this year.
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SPEAKER_02: And people just are like, hmm, this is very interesting.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: We're leaning hard into heated rivalry,
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SPEAKER_02: but there's very little follow through in how the league is actually operating.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they're playing...
6:41
SPEAKER_00: You go, Megan.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: They're playing in a cultural space that they don't really have permission to play in.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that's always when people kind of get, like, this is weird.
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SPEAKER_00: Why are you here?
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SPEAKER_00: Just because hockey romance is a thing doesn't mean that
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SPEAKER_00: the NHL can immediately jump into that cultural space and really own it.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was also going to say, too, like,
7:05
SPEAKER_01: in a weird way, like,
7:08
SPEAKER_01: Part of the homophobia of it is probably why it has become such an interesting space
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SPEAKER_01: to even use a setting for that.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: It's complicated.
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SPEAKER_01: I just feel like if you are the NHL and you're a brand and you're trying
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SPEAKER_01: to somehow capitalize on Like a largely probably,
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SPEAKER_01: you know, largely female, you know, interest that is around hockey.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: I think it's like, I feel like they're doing it in the most literal, boring way possible.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, as opposed to stepping back and being like, well, what is this?
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SPEAKER_01: You know, like there's so much more you could, there's like so many other ways into it.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, than this.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
8:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_02: I think it just feels off because I think what we saw with the Winter Olympics,
8:12
SPEAKER_02: the men's team,
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SPEAKER_02: there was thought to believe that the men's U.S.
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SPEAKER_02: hockey team was not taking, like, the women's hockey team seriously.
8:21
SPEAKER_02: And there was a whole, like, blip about that of them not partying with them.
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SPEAKER_02: And then, like, What's his name?
8:27
SPEAKER_02: Oh, how am I forgetting his name?
8:29
SPEAKER_02: The Trump administration guy, Patel, partying with the men's hockey team in their locker room.
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SPEAKER_02: And it just,
8:37
SPEAKER_02: I think it's been like,
8:40
SPEAKER_02: people's opinion,
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SPEAKER_02: I think it's gotten more critical of hockey in the past year with the eyeballs
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SPEAKER_02: from heated rivalry and off campus.
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SPEAKER_02: With those increased eyeballs, there's more scrutiny.
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SPEAKER_02: And then I also think We just saw the Sydney Sweeney sports ad
9:00
SPEAKER_02: that came out two weeks ago and the trend of female athletes saying,
9:04
SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: this is not,
9:06
SPEAKER_02: women in sports are so much more than Sydney Sweeney looking sexy sitting on
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SPEAKER_02: a basketball hoop.
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SPEAKER_02: And for the NHL to try to choose this moment to announce like
9:18
SPEAKER_02: a book talk romance audio series about real players, it just feels a little
9:27
SPEAKER_02: And I think your idea,
9:30
SPEAKER_02: Melissa,
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SPEAKER_02: about like leaning into the actual stories,
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SPEAKER_02: I know nothing about any NHL players other than one
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SPEAKER_02: of them I think is dating Tate McRae.
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SPEAKER_02: That's all I know.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: I feel like the NFL has done a really good job of leaning into the actual players
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SPEAKER_02: and their lives off the field.
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SPEAKER_02: And I feel like the NHL should have taken
9:54
SPEAKER_02: I get like,
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SPEAKER_02: this is a cool hockey niche that is happening online right now,
10:00
SPEAKER_02: but it just feels so totally off for the actual NHL.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: To your point about the NFL, I told Kaylee about this article that you found.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: And then she told me about a Hallmark movie coming out this Christmas with the Chicago Bears.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's like Chicago Bears, a love story.
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SPEAKER_00: And so we were like discussing whether or not we like this.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's like,
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SPEAKER_00: obviously, this is a better way in and a better tactic than the NHL going full smut.
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SPEAKER_00: But it is still that question of like,
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SPEAKER_00: as women enter this cultural space,
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SPEAKER_00: are you going to engage them in such a traditional way?
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SPEAKER_00: Or are you going to do it in a more...
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SPEAKER_00: In a way that takes their fandom more seriously, but it's working.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: Like all of this Taylor Swift romance stuff, last year they did a Chiefs movie.
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SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, this is kind of what women want.
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SPEAKER_00: They do want wags.
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SPEAKER_00: They do want romance.
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SPEAKER_00: But I think this NHL thing is just too on the nose.
11:00
SPEAKER_02: It's too on the nose.
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SPEAKER_02: I think the NFL does a good job of balancing the more fluffy,
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SPEAKER_02: like hyper pop culture, Taylor Swift, wag fashion with actual...
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SPEAKER_02: Like, true female fans who know the sport.
11:18
SPEAKER_02: Like, I think Brenda Song is now an analyst for LA, right?
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SPEAKER_02: The LA Rams.
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SPEAKER_02: And she is a diehard fan and she is on the field, like, talking about stats.
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SPEAKER_02: She's very, very good.
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SPEAKER_02: She's hilarious.
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SPEAKER_02: An on-the-field reporter for ESPN on the LA Rams.
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SPEAKER_02: I think she's with ESPN.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: I'll double check.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: But she's amazing.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: I think it's the Disney connection.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's amazing.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: She's a Disney girl and a millennial icon.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: She's the same one that is in Running Point, right?
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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SPEAKER_01: Kate Hudson.
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SPEAKER_01: Kate Hudson.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: She's very cool.
12:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and she knows what she's talking about and is obviously very good on camera.
12:08
SPEAKER_02: And she's a professional woman in sports now.
12:11
SPEAKER_02: And I think with Kylie Kelsey and her podcast and how much they promote that,
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SPEAKER_02: she is also a diehard football fan.
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SPEAKER_02: She knows what she's talking about.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_02: I think they do a good job of balancing and like appeasing everyone and throwing out
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SPEAKER_02: a wide net.
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SPEAKER_02: And this just seems like hypocritical and offbeat.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: I think like this is such a genius.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: I love hearing this about like the NFL with the Hallmark movie thing like that.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: That's so fun.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: It's exactly like why worry about Lifting up the profiles of individual players
12:55
SPEAKER_01: when all you have to do is just focus on the established teams and,
13:01
SPEAKER_01: like, storytell with that.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: Like, make up a million stories that have to do.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: Do the licensing.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: Let a romanticist author write about the comings and goings of, you know, the teams.
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SPEAKER_01: And, like, that's a fandom that exists.
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SPEAKER_01: And, like, if you can get...
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SPEAKER_01: And you can get romantic-y female readers super excited.
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SPEAKER_01: The soft goal should be just buy the merch.
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SPEAKER_01: Buy real NHL merch.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's a different way into an existing fandom.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: And then simultaneously, Emma,
13:39
SPEAKER_01: as you said,
13:40
SPEAKER_01: and Megan, but actually then storytell the real players and let us get to know them.
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SPEAKER_01: Married with kids and their lives and their journeys to do that, to be a professional athlete.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: That's interesting enough.
14:00
SPEAKER_02: Maybe we don't have to talk about this now,
14:01
SPEAKER_02: but since you mentioned merch,
14:04
SPEAKER_02: one of Megan's predictions about sports merch for women just came true
14:10
SPEAKER_02: with Mayor Mondani's wife wearing her very cool upcycled Knicks.
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SPEAKER_02: Outfit.
14:17
SPEAKER_02: And you predicted that females, women's sports merch would level up this year.
14:25
SPEAKER_02: And it definitely has.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, specifically, also, I think that was counterfeit merch.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: And I think that was something that I predicted of, like, it doesn't have to be official merch.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's even something that the NFL knows and that they've been doing
14:40
SPEAKER_00: a really good job of creating Not counterfeit,
14:43
SPEAKER_00: but like non-official merch and partnering with brands to do collabs
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SPEAKER_00: that are more aesthetically aligned with what women would want versus just like
14:51
SPEAKER_00: a jersey.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's so crazy, you guys.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: So I think that who is, what is her name?
14:59
SPEAKER_01: The 49ers.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: Kristen.
15:02
SPEAKER_02: I can't, I don't even want to try to pronounce that last name.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: News check.
15:06
SPEAKER_02: News check.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: She started a whole movement with what she was doing.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: And there's actually a mom here in our town.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: You guys got to look her up.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: Her name is Danielle Snyder or Danielle Shorenstein.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: She has a really cool brand called Danny Jo Pro.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: And she does this.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: It's almost like she Danny Jo Pro-ifies gear and all this stuff.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: And so she did the Knicks.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: And she does the Warriors.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, she does all of them.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: But Spike Lee, like, wore all of her stuff in the finals.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: It was, like, she's in
15:49
SPEAKER_02: the news for it.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: I know.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: And she's, like, I was just hanging out with her last night.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: Her stuff is, like, it does kind of give Kristen you kick a little bit.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: But, like, in her own way.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: It's, like, different.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: But, yeah, it's...
16:06
SPEAKER_01: It's such an interesting sub-industry now.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
16:13
SPEAKER_02: Well, women spend money.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: And I feel like when women take up an interest in something,
16:20
SPEAKER_02: they really go for it and invest the time and money.
16:24
SPEAKER_02: And the NFL has realized that and is leaning in, I think, in very smart ways.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: Not so much.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully somebody from the NHL sees this.
16:37
SPEAKER_02: They should call us.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: Okay,
16:42
SPEAKER_02: next topic I wanted to talk to you guys about is about the comeback of the listicle
16:50
SPEAKER_02: and how they're not so sloppy now that we're in the age of AI.
16:56
SPEAKER_02: So if you remember the BuzzFeed, I feel like really kind of made them a thing in the mid-2010s.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: Ballisticles,
17:04
SPEAKER_02: and it would be like 10 moments,
17:06
SPEAKER_02: 10 things you didn't know about Harry Potter that'll blow your mind,
17:10
SPEAKER_02: or like 50 facts you need to know before you die.
17:14
SPEAKER_02: They were like AI slop before there was AI slop.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: But now that we're dealing with actual AI slob online,
17:26
SPEAKER_02: people are very much leaning into rankings and curation,
17:32
SPEAKER_02: like curation in the form of lists and rankings.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: And we see that with letterbox,
17:38
SPEAKER_02: Goodreads,
17:39
SPEAKER_02: and people are now using them as like a way to signal taste,
17:43
SPEAKER_02: which I feel like has been a theme.
17:45
SPEAKER_02: In a lot of our conversations,
17:47
SPEAKER_02: like people trying to signal taste and like taste being a human thing
17:53
SPEAKER_02: that nobody else can take, AI can't replicate.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: And I feel like the article talks about we're so overwhelmed
18:02
SPEAKER_02: with information online these days and on social media that these list formats
18:09
SPEAKER_02: and rankings feel like a manageable way to take in information and content now.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: I was also going to add
18:19
SPEAKER_01: to that, too.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: I feel like ratings as well.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like hearing you talk about this makes so much sense to me.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: When I think of my beloved food bloggers and the way
18:32
SPEAKER_01: that they're constantly testing,
18:37
SPEAKER_01: ranking, and redoing and then rating their lists of stuff, it's like that.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: I think that genre or, like,
18:46
SPEAKER_01: that sort of category is so,
18:50
SPEAKER_01: like, ripe for this because it's constantly, like, it's ever-changing.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: So it requires, like, new expertise along the way, you know?
18:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think curation is definitely having a huge return in a major way because,
19:05
SPEAKER_00: like you said, Emma, people are sick of AI slop.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: I actually am not as on board for the listicle era of publications, like,
19:15
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't going to yuck anyone's yum with the New York Times list,
19:18
SPEAKER_00: but I was kind of like, okay,
19:20
SPEAKER_00: so New York Times is doing BuzzFeed now,
19:21
SPEAKER_00: and they did their 100 best shows of the 21st century.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: I immediately was like, this is clickbait.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: I think one of the unspoken realities of this is that all
19:33
SPEAKER_00: of these websites need clicks, and a great way to get clicks is listicles.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: BuzzFeed figured that out, and now they're capitalizing on this for the 21st, 2026th century.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was like,
19:47
SPEAKER_00: I see why they're doing this,
19:48
SPEAKER_00: but I also thought it was a little bit of a cop out from the New York Times in terms
19:52
SPEAKER_00: of like, is this really what we're coming to you guys for?
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Is this really the type of ranking that we want you to do?
19:58
SPEAKER_00: And the article you sent was talking about how the New York Times has all this rigor
20:02
SPEAKER_00: to the list that they put together.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: And it's not just, you know, someone's opinions.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: They really like went hard.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: And so You know, like I said, I'm not going to yuck anyone's yum.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: It was fun to see especially what other people would rank their top list.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really the value here.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think Letterboxd has done an amazing job with this of like,
20:23
SPEAKER_00: that's the question they ask celebrities on the red carpet.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: What is your Letterboxd top four?
20:27
SPEAKER_00: And then everybody else has kind of like taken that assignment
20:30
SPEAKER_00: and also done their thinking of what I've thought
20:32
SPEAKER_00: about what my Letterboxd top four is.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: And then that is like, to your point, taste signaling.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that These are valuable as formats to people,
20:42
SPEAKER_00: but only because they can then take them and make them their own.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: I don't think people are actually looking for kind of a objective POV as much
20:50
SPEAKER_00: as maybe they were in the past when Buzzfeed was coming up and it was all about like
20:54
SPEAKER_00: the trend cap and rankings and what was the most watched video.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: I think people are wanting an in-between of personalization
21:01
SPEAKER_00: and objective shared context of curation.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I totally agree.
21:06
SPEAKER_02: I thought I am a huge lover of TV,
21:11
SPEAKER_02: so I read through the New York Times list the day they published it.
21:18
SPEAKER_02: Similar to Megan,
21:19
SPEAKER_02: I thought it was super interesting to see, like,
21:22
SPEAKER_02: I think it told me a lot about the curators of the list, the shows that they picked.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: And what I really enjoyed from it was then going to their Instagram and seeing all
21:34
SPEAKER_02: the comments and people were putting in their own,
21:37
SPEAKER_02: they weren't doing their 100 because it's an Instagram comment,
21:40
SPEAKER_02: but they were doing their like top 10 shows.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: And I thought that was really interesting, seeing what other people thought.
21:47
SPEAKER_02: And I totally agree.
21:48
SPEAKER_02: I think people want a format or a trend where they can share their own top 10 whatever.
21:58
SPEAKER_02: Because whether it's like authentic to their true tastes or not,
22:04
SPEAKER_02: it's like becoming a language online and you can gather so much about the content
22:10
SPEAKER_02: that people consume.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: The type of person they are.
22:14
SPEAKER_02: It's like what we talk about with A24, why people wear A24 merch.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: It's all signaling,
22:21
SPEAKER_02: this is the kind of person I want you to think I am and how I want to be perceived.
22:26
SPEAKER_02: And that's what these rankings are, basically.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: And I think people are hungry for a shared cultural context because everything is so fragmented.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: And so these lists and these formats give you that.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: Where like Letterboxd Top 4, everybody knows what that means.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: You've thought about it and you can digest that super quickly.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: But if you were like, what's your favorite movie?
22:46
SPEAKER_00: People like both.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, favorite movie right now, all time.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: It's a lot harder to answer.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: So the formatization of the list, I think, is the real value here.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: So as brands are looking to do this,
22:56
SPEAKER_00: and we saw this,
22:57
SPEAKER_00: we've been commenting on this for the past year of like,
23:00
SPEAKER_00: seems like every week there's a new 100 influencers you have to know list from
23:04
SPEAKER_00: a different publication.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: I think that that is,
23:08
SPEAKER_00: like I said,
23:09
SPEAKER_00: clickbait,
23:10
SPEAKER_00: but it's more valuable for the conversation it can spark than it is for
23:15
SPEAKER_00: the list itself.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: So if you're looking to actually move past just like clicks
23:20
SPEAKER_00: and actually like creating a list that is going to have some cultural relevance
23:23
SPEAKER_00: and staying power, I think you need to be consistent.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: Do it, you know, once a quarter, once a year.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: But then also think about how do you want culture to digest this list
23:31
SPEAKER_00: and how can people plug in their own opinions to it
23:34
SPEAKER_00: Beyond just like commenting my top 10.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: And the New York Times did a good job of this with their list.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Like you can make your own.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: I didn't do it,
23:41
SPEAKER_00: but I saw a lot of other people's and I enjoyed consuming my friends
23:44
SPEAKER_00: and family's list more than I did the actual New York Times one.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's funny.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: I haven't heard as much of that side of it.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: Kaylee just texted that the NHL pulled out of their romance
24:01
deal.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: Breaking news.
24:05
SPEAKER_02: They hear us.
24:06
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they got a Google Alert.
24:10
SPEAKER_02: We've never manifested this quickly, guys.
24:13
SPEAKER_02: I know, but... You're like, who and what are they thinking?
24:17
SPEAKER_02: You guys, I really do feel like we do manifest on these things.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: This is now the top, this is ranking the number one.
24:27
SPEAKER_02: Us manifesting on these lives.
24:29
SPEAKER_02: Second was meta glasses because in their new release they removed the cameras.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
24:37
SPEAKER_01: Way to make a listicle out of these.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, us bullying brands on open tabs.
24:46
SPEAKER_02: That is so funny.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm an NHL.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: Book talk.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: Also, I just want to say, like,
24:59
SPEAKER_01: it's interesting because I feel like,
25:01
SPEAKER_01: you know, where I think it, like, the impetus comes from for those.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: I really think it's from,
25:08
SPEAKER_01: what is the publication that does, like, the list of colleges in the country?
25:13
SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: U.S. News and World Report,
25:16
SPEAKER_01: when they put out, like, the top colleges in the country or whatever.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: And those lists and rankings,
25:23
SPEAKER_01: I think that whatever they really started that,
25:28
SPEAKER_01: that is like what trained culture look for this.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting
25:39
SPEAKER_01: because I just finished these two recent Ellen Hildebrand books,
25:44
SPEAKER_01: The Academy and The Thoroughbreds.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you guys have read those.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: They're very like, I've heard of thoroughbreds.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: It was like a good palate cleanser.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of cool.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: She wrote the book with her daughter, Shelby.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: And they're good.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: I think that it'll be interesting to see if they continue the series.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: But it takes place in this elite boarding school that's made up called Tiffin.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: And it talks about the boarding school rankings and through the course of the book,
26:20
SPEAKER_01: they go from 16th place up to 2nd place and how it affects donations
26:23
SPEAKER_01: and how it affects how you think about the alumni and how it applies to
26:28
SPEAKER_01: the football program.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: And everything is so interconnected.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: And anyway, it was just sort of interesting to even I'm so far out of college right now.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: I graduated in 2006.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: To even think about the fact that in culture,
26:47
SPEAKER_01: in a book that was just published,
26:49
SPEAKER_01: these rankings are still so relevant and that people care.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: There's so much discourse.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: I think your point, Emma, about it reflects back to self-identity.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: And like, where do you fall in that?
27:24
SPEAKER_01: Like the first thing,
27:25
SPEAKER_01: like whenever I see any of these like travel and leisure lists too,
27:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I immediately open them because I'm like, where did I go?
27:32
SPEAKER_00: That's usually like number one.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, validated, validated.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: You said the word that I was going to say validation.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: I think these lists provide a lot of validation of like you not only being able
27:45
SPEAKER_00: to signal your taste,
27:46
SPEAKER_00: but to have your taste validated as being good or great or,
27:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:50
SPEAKER_00: even if they're not good or great,
27:52
SPEAKER_00: you kind of get that validation of where do they actually sit and
27:55
SPEAKER_00: then finding your people and being like,
27:57
SPEAKER_00: well, culture doesn't get it, but we love this and that's validating.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: So I think validation
28:03
SPEAKER_01: is huge.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: Validation is huge.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: I was going to also add, too, the New York Times does a really great job, too.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: Their interactive department is just really cool.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: The way that they do infographics, the way that they do time change on apps and all that.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: And I think that their quizzes are amazing.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: Again, their quiz of speech dialects across the U.S. is such...
28:34
SPEAKER_01: It is such a banger.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: It is such a fun thing to pull out at any dinner party.
28:39
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny because as we were on,
28:41
SPEAKER_01: I just went to their Instagram because I'm like,
28:43
SPEAKER_01: I haven't seen their list of 100 TV shows.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: It's on Instagram, and I didn't see it, actually.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of surprised it's not on.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I just didn't scroll deep enough.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: I think it's on there, but maybe they could have taken it.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: Somebody mentioned it on another call we were on, and so I was like, oh, let me go left.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, the point being is that in their highlights,
29:04
SPEAKER_01: the first thing that they have is a Google Play.
29:06
SPEAKER_01: That was posted two weeks ago.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I just think that there's something with the interactivity of their gaming, too.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: They have their games,
29:14
SPEAKER_01: love their games,
29:16
SPEAKER_01: and then quizzes and like, There's something happening there in those spaces to me.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: I worry that that's also just partially because that's very easy to measure engagement on.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: A view, I feel like we've talked about this before,
29:32
SPEAKER_00: is losing its cultural weight because it's so easy to gain views,
29:36
SPEAKER_00: especially with the rise of AI.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: But I do think that engagement of like someone actually clicked
29:42
SPEAKER_00: through this is still seen as super valuable.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: And so part of me worries that we're just seeing more of this stuff
29:48
SPEAKER_00: because it's easy to measure and then they can check off
29:51
SPEAKER_00: that they're meeting their KPIs.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: That's probably very true because,
29:58
SPEAKER_02: you know, the KPIs are something you always have to think about.
30:05
SPEAKER_02: I'm looking on the New York Times.
30:07
SPEAKER_02: Are you seeing it?
30:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you have to scroll down pretty far.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: But what's interesting is they did it as a two-parter because then...
30:16
SPEAKER_02: Four days ago, they released the Reader's Choice Top 100 TV Shows of the 21st Century.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: And they said over 100,000 people voted or took their quiz about their top movies.
30:33
SPEAKER_02: Oh.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: See, they made a quiz out of it.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: See, they're so smart.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'd love to say that they did this, though.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: This looks good.
30:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, their graphics are really good.
30:46
SPEAKER_02: Breaking Bad is still number one.
30:50
SPEAKER_02: Breaking Bad is still number one, yeah.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: But it looks like comedies, comedies are all, half of the top 10 are all comedies.
30:59
SPEAKER_02: We have Ted Lasso, Rested Development, Fleabag, The Office.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: Head Lasso is number 10.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: I know, that is interesting.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: It's like Steinfeld.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: Are you guys serious?
31:11
SPEAKER_00: Steinfeld is the 90s though, right?
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so Seinfeld isn't on here,
31:17
SPEAKER_02: but it's higher than 30 Rock or V, which I'm like, that's not right.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: But maybe that's just me showing my bias.
31:29
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it leans a lot.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: It is so funny.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: This list leans a lot more towards comedy and feel good than the list that
31:38
SPEAKER_02: The Times put out
31:39
SPEAKER_01: themselves.
31:41
SPEAKER_02: I could not get into that.
31:44
SPEAKER_02: I think I was, yeah, I never watched it.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: Modern Family is 34.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that should be higher.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: Like it's lower than Hacks.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: What?
31:55
SPEAKER_01: No.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: Modern Family, I feel like the rewatchability of shows should take a big account.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: See, this is where I also get to the thing about it could just be engagement bait.
32:09
SPEAKER_00: Like they could have been like Modern Family's number two, but we're going to put it low.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Because we want people to be like, this is criminal, move modern family up.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: So these lists, if everybody agreed with them, they wouldn't cause discourse and conversation.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: They need to be a little bit controversial in order to really move the needle.
32:28
SPEAKER_02: This also,
32:30
SPEAKER_02: people were very upset when they put out their list
32:33
SPEAKER_02: that there were no animated shows.
32:35
SPEAKER_02: So it looks like they threw in a couple animated.
32:38
SPEAKER_02: Bob's Burgers, Avatar, Last Airbender is in here.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: And so is Heated Rivalry at 83.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: One of the comments is like, I will never understand the obsession with Ted Lasso.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: And there's 2,000 likes on it and hearts on it.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: And I could not agree more.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: I've never seen it.
33:00
SPEAKER_00: I worked on it way back in the day, but I never actually watched it.
33:05
SPEAKER_02: My mom really loved it, so I would, like, see it peripherally, but I never watched it myself.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: Actually, for you, you need, like, scary prison-American horror story.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: I actually just saw a TikTok about Ted Lasso the other day about a girl from England
33:26
SPEAKER_02: who just moved to Manhattan and she watches it as a comfort show
33:33
SPEAKER_02: when she's homesick.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: And it's like a blend of her two worlds now, which I thought was interesting.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: I used to be too scared to like watch certain things when I lived alone in the city.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: Like I would never watch Law & Order.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: I think that's honestly partly why I got so into Housewives because it was so light
33:55
SPEAKER_01: and it was discourse happening.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: And again,
33:57
SPEAKER_01: I lived alone for four years and I think it was right when Housewives started
34:02
SPEAKER_01: and I loved it.
34:05
SPEAKER_02: No, I think when there's a lot going on,
34:09
SPEAKER_02: I
34:14
SPEAKER_02: always go towards very funny or very scary because it's not my reaction.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: I don't want anything that's bad.
34:22
SPEAKER_02: Escape isn't.
34:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's all about escape, one extreme or the other.
34:26
SPEAKER_02: It has to be an extreme.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: I want to be terrified.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: I want space to think.
34:35
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that's so funny.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: Do you guys,
34:38
SPEAKER_02: are you guys on like Goodreads or Letterboxd
34:41
SPEAKER_02: or like these curation sites yourselves?
34:44
SPEAKER_00: No.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: I'm on Storygraph, but I don't really use it for What's Storygraph?
34:49
SPEAKER_02: I've never
34:50
SPEAKER_00: heard of that.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: It's exactly like Goodreads, but they give you more data, like more data visualizations.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: And you know that I'm anti-Amazon, so they own Goodreads, so I got off of that.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: And also the interface is just not as good.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: So I'm on Storygraph, but I'm not really taking recommendations for people.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: I also think like once you get to a certain age, you kind of know what you like.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: And you're less, like, I need someone else to curate this for me.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: And more, like, you have your own tastes and your own internal compass of what you want to read.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: So I don't use books as much.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't use lists as much for books, I feel like, as other things.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: But, like, movies, music, I'm much more open to taking recommendations.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm the same way.
35:33
SPEAKER_02: Books are, like, very personal.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: But I'll, like, if Spotify recommends, like, I...
35:38
SPEAKER_02: Lean into like curation like Spotify a lot.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: Which sucks now.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: It used to be so good and now it's not.
35:45
SPEAKER_02: I know.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: But I have to stick with it because I love Spotify rap.
35:50
SPEAKER_02: So I got to...
35:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, they're the
35:53
SPEAKER_00: original listicle format,
35:56
SPEAKER_02: right?
35:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: I got to give them all my data so my raft can be as accurate as possible.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you guys so much.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: Such a fun conversation as always.
36:07
SPEAKER_02: And we will be back on Thursday.
36:10
SPEAKER_02: Yay.
36:11
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: Bye.