Latest / Surviving-ISH Podcast / Spiraling Up: Why We’re All Traumatized Right Now (And How to Regain Control) w/ Lauren Tobey

Transcript

Spiraling Up: Why We’re All Traumatized Right Now (And How to Regain Control) w/ Lauren Tobey · Surviving-ISH Podcast

0:15
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Surviving Ish.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: Today we have a lovely guest.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: It's my actual first time meeting her, but I uh am a huge fan of her on TikTok.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Her name is Lauren Toby.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: And Lauren, thank you so much for being here.
0:30
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited.
0:32
SPEAKER_02: I absolutely love your frame and your podcast.
0:36
SPEAKER_02: So I'm so excited to be here with you.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know, it really means a lot to me.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: I had another therapist on, and they were all like, we love it.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: So when you all give me that validation, it's all in recording, and sometimes I just listen to it in the morning.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: So I'm in the shower of everyone saying, You're doing great.
0:51
SPEAKER_02: Make yourself a little highlight reel.
0:53
SPEAKER_02: But yes, you're doing wonderful.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: So it's a great theory, great concept.
0:58
SPEAKER_02: And I know your audience is just thriving.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, absolutely.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: We're growing, and I'm just so tickled with it.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: So, okay, before we get into the topics, I would love to hear what you're surviving-ish right now.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, so the today uh I was picking the kids up from school and their school has this pickup line.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: I don't know how many people can relate to this, but you have to get there like 40 minutes early if you want to get your kids in any reasonable amount of time.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: So I'm sitting in the pickup line and the sun is just in my face.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: And the pickup line has this like snake thing.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: So if you get there at the right time, you get the good, like I can sit here and play on my phone.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: But today it was like right in my eyes.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I have to sit here for 40 minutes and stare at the sun.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: And that was one of my kind of moments.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: I feel that.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: So I do property management during the day is my big boy job.
1:57
unknown: Yeah.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: And so I have to take, you know, my nightly deposits to the bank.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: Never fails.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: The time, like I'm very structured and very scheduled.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: The time, like I know what time to leave before the traffic hits, you know.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: So, but of course, that's when the sun is trying to start, is in this one spot, and I'm driving on this busy road, red light to red light, bumper to bumper, with the sun in my eyes.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: My my spray tans all over the place because my eyes are watering.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: And it's like it's like your sun visor, you can put it down, but the sun is still just right there.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: Right under it.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: And then the sunglasses are like working, but yeah, squint with one eye.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's yeah, it's you can never hit it right.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: It's no matter what, it's going to be just under that visor and right in my face.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: Every time.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: When you're in that line for 40 minutes, like, are you working on your phone?
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Do you bring your laptop?
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, because that you're a busy person, you have to multitask.
2:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: So a lot of it I do on my phone.
2:54
SPEAKER_02: That's when I really do a lot of my one-on-one connection with people, whether it's um indirect messages or people I'm coaching directly within my app.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: That's I really like to save that because that's an easy way.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: I send voice notes a lot.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I can do that from my phone wherever I am.
3:13
SPEAKER_02: So the computer work I try to get done before that.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: And then I get to do the fun stuff with meeting with people and connecting with people during that time.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's amazing.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: You'll see on my TikTok, I also do a lot of content during that time.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: Uh when those things pop into my brain.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: So you'll see my car, it's got the pink roof.
3:33
SPEAKER_02: So uh that's a lot of content time as well.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to be okay.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: So here's my ish.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a little bit of uh trauma that comes with it where I get a little insecure.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: But like, remember when like you would like turn 16 and start driving and you would need to go to Walmart or something, but you would never go by yourself.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: You had to like have a friend or a sibling go with someone because that way you're not alone, right?
3:57
SPEAKER_00: Because if you're alone, it means you have no friends, everyone's judging you.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: You won't go eat at a restaurant by yourself, you know.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: And then finally, when you start doing it, it's like, oh, okay, I don't ever want to go to Walmart with anybody.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: I want to now go by myself.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm totally fine going to a chilies and propping up at the bar and playing on my phone and eating by myself, you know what I mean?
4:15
SPEAKER_00: But it took a while.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of in that place right now with um doing like TikTok videos.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to, I'm trying to do more in real time versus just clips from Zoom and where it's not always just the same setting, and I'll do it and I'll put it in drafts and I won't send it.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm terrified of oh no, I know that's press it, just press it, just post.
4:42
SPEAKER_02: You can that took me a long time.
4:43
SPEAKER_02: So I wanted to be seen as like professional and I know what I'm talking about, and then I was like, you know what?
4:50
SPEAKER_02: I'm a girl just like everyone else.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: I'm in trauma recovery, I've dealt with a lot of stuff, and some days it is what it is.
4:58
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna get me in a hoodie and my hair up in a bun, and some days you're gonna get me looking good, right?
5:03
SPEAKER_02: And that's who I am.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: And if you know you don't think I know what I'm talking about because I'm in a hoodie, then that's a you problem.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
5:11
SPEAKER_02: Uh, because I have the same brain and the same knowledge whether I'm in a hoodie with my hair in a bun, or whether I've done my makeup that day.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: So it took me a long time to get there, though.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: A very long time.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: And so so I will say I'm proud of myself.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: I have been working, I I I've become very political well, putting a lot of politics like trying to consume a lot of politics and learn because yeah, again, I'm a gay man in the South.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: It's scary for a lot of us.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: One of my best friends speaks very little English, is here on asylum from Venezuela, you know, and so so it's very scary for a lot of people, women's rights, all kinds of things, right?
5:48
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not necessarily trying to get into that, but I've the reason I'm bringing that up is it hit me yesterday talking to a friend of mine who's also a therapist, but that this administration has been triggering to me because I noticed that a lot of times when I talk about things such as like Epstein files or or sexual assault allegations, I immediately want to go to the juggler.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna reach anybody like that, you know?
6:15
SPEAKER_00: And so I have been working the past like six, seven months, like writing scripts, taking notes, and educating myself.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: And every day I tell myself, okay, I'm just gonna hit record.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: I want to do like these little like 10, 15 minute learn with me things because these politicians they say these words that I just don't understand.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, and so like I'm like, okay, now I'm having to Google like what does this mean?
6:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, and and so there's so many other people like that.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, maybe I can just start doing short videos taking certain situations and David fying the language.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say dummy fying it, but David, you know, and and but I'm proud of myself because I've recorded four, I've released two, and um, and they're actually doing really well.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: And I will say that I do end up releasing the little reels, the TikTok videos that I make.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: I download it to my phone.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: I have two people that I send it to, and I'm like, how do you feel about this?
7:08
SPEAKER_00: Because I trust them.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: And the minute they say run it, yeah, I do it.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: So I've got my little like system until I have the confidence to be like, you know what, they'll see it when they'll see it on my page, you know.
7:18
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, people love that authenticity, right?
7:23
SPEAKER_02: That you're able to say, I have no idea what this means, but let's figure it out together.
7:29
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's so much of what we're missing in society is people want to talk at you like I'm the expert and I know what you need.
7:39
SPEAKER_02: And really, we just need someone to say, let's figure it out together.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: Let's do this together.
7:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I know we'll talk about later by my the preface of my book talks about that.
7:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, there's an old wives tale about a guy in a ditch, and you know, people keep walking by and throwing him in advice and prayers and all the things, and then a friend jumps down and he's like, dude, why are you why did you do that?
8:03
SPEAKER_02: Now we're both stuck.
8:04
SPEAKER_02: And the friend says, But I've been here before and I know the way out.
8:08
SPEAKER_02: And I think we need that so much in society right now, is someone to say, like, let's do it together, not here's what you should do.
8:16
unknown: Yeah.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: You know, I forgot about that fable.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: I for I forgot about that story.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: And uh thank you for reminding me of of that.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: I was telling Jenny, who she's a co-host of another podcast that uh is under my network, she and I, and she focuses more on like deconstructing from like religious cults, and sometimes we collaborate on some things, yeah.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: And um, she was uh seeing a couple of things yesterday, and I was actually taking accountability, which a lot of people are not good at doing.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: I pride myself in it, of how like I want to learn how to have these conversations without going straight to the jugular of where there's a divide politically, right?
8:57
SPEAKER_00: And and so I'm trying to learn.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: And and I told Ginny this morning, I was like, you know, I remember that conversation.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: It hit me this morning, I was getting ready.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: And without editing it or anything, I went ahead and just replayed it because it was a nice reminder.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: And so, like, that's what I love about podcast recordings because like I will listen to this episode again and I'll be reminded of that story.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: And I think just little things like that are so powerful.
9:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, I've done a lot of work recently on something I don't think people talk about enough, and I call it ambient trauma, but trauma that's not happening to you, it's not happening to your family, your close friends, but it's traumatic just living in the world right now from listening to the news and dealing with what's going on politically and culturally and in the war and all of these things that it really can traumatize people, but they're like, I don't have trauma because nothing happened to me.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't understand why I'm having this these panic responses and these responses.
9:58
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, because the world we're living in is traumatic.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: I don't care what side of the spectrum you're on or what you know, your stance is there's trauma on all sides of it right now.
10:09
SPEAKER_02: And that's a lot for people to deal with.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: There was like I just have this sigh of relief of hearing that, you know, because I there was a little bit of like guilt.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, I even played around with like, is it some kind of survivor's guilt?
10:22
SPEAKER_00: Some kind of like what kind of guilt is this that I'm feeling?
10:25
SPEAKER_00: Because right now I'm okay.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm a gay man in the south, but I lean as a white man with a little bit of money in the bank.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
10:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, like I'm okay right now, but yeah, there's so many people in my life that isn't.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: And so I like I was like, am I making something about me and taking their trauma and their stuff and trying to make it about me?
10:44
SPEAKER_00: Or or but that's more of like you said, ambient trauma.
10:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you know, it can affect people in so many different ways, you know.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: Like I am a white female born in the US, but what's going on with Hispanic individuals and people of other nationalities in the US right now is like really affecting me.
11:08
SPEAKER_02: And like I said, it's not anything that's happening to me, it's not anyone directly approaching me, but it really affects me.
11:17
SPEAKER_02: And I feel myself catching myself, you know, in trauma responses, just thinking about it.
11:22
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I think that happens in so many places that yeah, you you're like, why what is wrong with me?
11:30
SPEAKER_02: Because nothing's wrong with me.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, that is a natural bodily response, you know, from I don't know thousands of years ago when we lived in communal groups.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: You know, if something was wrong with the group, it it was wrong with everyone because that was your survival was making sure your group was coh cohesive.
11:53
SPEAKER_02: That's a word.
11:54
SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, we still feel that today that something's wrong with our cohesiveness, and that's dangerous.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: That's what I love about Joe and in these conversations is the validation I feel from that.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: Like that, like you could probably see in real time, like there was like the uh this real sob, like, oh, this is natural.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: Because I there was some some guilt, right?
12:22
SPEAKER_00: There was some things I started questioning about myself of why am I trying to make this about me?
12:26
SPEAKER_00: Why am I trying?
12:27
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm forgetting the real picture because now I am focused on me.
12:31
SPEAKER_02: And so so just knowing that that this is a thing, and and uh just yeah, I like and I think normalizing that that's okay, because I think we do get a lot of you know privileged conversations where they're like, oh, you're capitalizing on this or you're doing this or that, but it can affect different people and different groups from the outside and being okay with people saying, like, I'm really struggling right now, even though there's no reason for me to be struggling, I am.
13:03
SPEAKER_02: And you know, we don't hear that.
13:05
SPEAKER_02: We hear, you know, people love to go off in the comments and you know, do all that and be like, oh, you're doing, you know, whatever, politicizing or whatever they choose to say.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: But it's okay.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: Like it's okay to have your feelings and have your emotions.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: And it's the fact that when we tell people their emotions aren't valid or their feelings aren't valid, that's when we start running into people, you know, not being comfortable or feeling safe to express themselves.
13:36
SPEAKER_02: And that's where that identity erosion starts happening, where suddenly you don't have an opinion because you've always been told your opinion isn't valid or worthy.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: So why even have one?
13:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: And you know, sometimes I think the world works in in crazy beautiful ways.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: Because to me, like what's going through my mind right now is exactly what my ish is.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: I I was afraid that when I put out this content that people are gonna be like, why are you worried about this?
14:03
SPEAKER_00: Why are you making this about you?
14:04
SPEAKER_00: Why are you trying to like capitalize on this?
14:07
SPEAKER_00: And and and so I think that was a little bit of my insecurity, is because I was like, I don't even know what to call what I'm feeling right now.
14:13
SPEAKER_00: Because, but at the same time, I'm one of those people that I will not wait until something hits my door to then stand up and join hands with others, you know.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a very important thing to throw out.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, like even just hearing everything that you were just saying, I was like, I think she might have just helped me find a way to fix my ish.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: And before we hit record, I told you you're probably going to send me a bill, and I think we just confirmed what I'll be expecting in the mail.
14:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: Wow, that that is so crazy.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
14:40
SPEAKER_02: Yes, now I'm gonna replay this and be like, Yeah, yes, this is me in action fixing things.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I love that.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: So, okay, why don't you um because I want I have questions of okay, all the questions, yeah, all the questions.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: So before we do, why don't you give us a little bit of your background so we'll know where this information education is coming from?
15:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I mean it came from real lived experience, and then I went back to study to make sure I was right.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: And so my I call it the spiral, and we'll get into what that means.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: But my first big spiral um was within my marriage, my first marriage, and I lost myself completely.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: I was so latched on to what his opinion was, what his preferences were, keeping the peace.
15:27
SPEAKER_02: I made myself so small within that relationship that I didn't know who I was.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: I didn't have any opinions or anything, which was fine because we were married and I could use his.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: But then I had an ember moment, which is part of the spiral.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: And I went, this isn't right.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: And I think of it as I don't know who's seen Divergent.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: It was a very like if movie.
15:51
SPEAKER_02: The books are amazing, but she's in this part where she's in this dream state, in stuck in a box of water, and she's able to go, this isn't real, and then kind of morph what she was doing to escape that.
16:04
SPEAKER_02: And that was kind of the moment I had was like, what life am I living?
16:09
SPEAKER_02: Like, who am I?
16:11
SPEAKER_02: And because I didn't have the words or knew what to do, I created a fireball.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: Like I exploded my entire life.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: And I was so desperate for someone to understand what I was dealing with and what I needed and what was happening in my body while he was able to keep his composure and was, you know, the person that, you know, was concerned and all of this.
16:33
SPEAKER_02: And so I looked like this crazy psychopath because I'm like burning my life down around me.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: So when we finally separated and got divorced, I went into this asheus state, this deep numbness that I realized at that point so many people go through.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: And you almost feel like you're watching your life from like three steps to the left and watching yourself perform these acts, right?
16:59
SPEAKER_02: I was performing motherhood.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: I was getting up, I was making breakfast, I was doing all the things I was supposed to do, but I didn't feel it.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: Like I knew I loved my kids, but I didn't feel it.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: And I stayed in that state for quite a while until I found another ember that was like, What are you doing?
17:17
SPEAKER_02: Who are you?
17:18
SPEAKER_02: And it was that point that I was able to kind of wake up enough to say, something's not right here.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: And so I went through a ton of research and a ton of stuff.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm major nerd academic.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: I love research.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: I could stay up and read scientific articles all night long, which I did for a very long time.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh, which adds a whole nother level of no sleep and stuff to it.
17:44
SPEAKER_02: But you know, and I started kind of going through this and realizing, you know, who I was, started rebuilding my life.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: I got married again.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: I felt like I knew what was going on.
17:55
SPEAKER_02: And I then I got laid off from my job and realized that in rebuilding after my divorce, I had poured myself into the job.
18:04
SPEAKER_02: So now I was mom and executive, and that's who I was.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: And so now suddenly I didn't have that.
18:10
SPEAKER_02: And I was like back in the ashes.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: Like, who am I?
18:13
SPEAKER_02: What am I doing?
18:14
SPEAKER_02: And that's the point where I stopped and went, hold on, this is a pattern.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: I've been here before, I've done this before.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: And that's when I started really looking into it and researching.
18:25
SPEAKER_02: I got my trauma certifications.
18:27
SPEAKER_02: I uh went through all of the uh NLP neurolinguistic programming study courses to make sure that the pattern I was seeing was real.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I was like, I know this is happening to other people, and I want the education to prove that.
18:45
SPEAKER_02: That's when I started developing my framework.
18:48
SPEAKER_02: I found little pieces that made sense everywhere, but none of it gave someone a map that says, when you're in the ashes, these are the next steps you need to take.
18:58
SPEAKER_02: It explained why or it explained how, but it never explained that what.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: And um that's really where I die dove in.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: And I've I got on so many soapboxes, and I could soapbox here all day long.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: But the main thing is that there's no end point.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: People are always striving for healing, and healing means there's an end point, right?
19:22
SPEAKER_02: Like if you think about it, you get the flu, right?
19:24
SPEAKER_02: You have a virus, your body gets rid of the virus, and you're healed.
19:29
SPEAKER_02: Trauma doesn't work that way.
19:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, life doesn't work that way.
19:33
SPEAKER_02: Trauma changes your body, your brain, your chemistry completely.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: And so people are out there selling healing.
19:41
SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, if you do these five steps, you're gonna be healed and never be traumatized again.
19:48
SPEAKER_02: But life doesn't work that way.
19:50
SPEAKER_02: And so that's where I developed the spiral concept of you're gonna hit these same states again.
19:56
SPEAKER_02: But every time you hit it, you're at a different altitude, kind of like a staircase, right?
20:01
SPEAKER_02: A spiral staircase, you're gonna see the same window every time you go up a rung on the staircase.
20:07
SPEAKER_02: But every time that window is a little different because you're at a different altitude.
20:11
SPEAKER_02: So every time you hit the ashes, it's gonna be a little different because you have a little more awareness, you have a little more going on.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: So the goal ultimately is mastering your spiral, but that doesn't end the spiral.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: It's still gonna happen, but now you know how to get through it faster.
20:28
SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of what my life patterned into my work, and I absolutely love helping people to understand that.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it I mean, explaining that.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so a couple things.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you used amber, fire, ashes.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: So the four states are ashes, ember, flame, and then rise is your kind of regulated state.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and so is that like something that you came up with, and or is that like an actual like no?
20:58
SPEAKER_02: So that's mine.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Because I love it.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
21:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:02
SPEAKER_02: So when I first started, I had this concept of a phoenix, phoenix rising kind of thing.
21:07
SPEAKER_02: And then it developed into so much more, and I felt like that was a little too like cutesy girl thing, and it didn't quite fit the magnitude of what I felt like I was developing.
21:18
SPEAKER_02: But I kept the state names because I loved them.
21:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:21
SPEAKER_02: In the ashes, the ember, the flame, and the rise.
21:24
SPEAKER_02: So it's a little callback to my like original thoughts.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: But yeah.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: And you might not be able to tell, but I have a Phoenix tattoo.
21:31
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love it.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: I've got like I've got a bunch of tattoos, and they're all like about healing.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: And so, like when you said that, I was like, I have that.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: Um but no, I think.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: What made me think of it is I have a Phoenix feather on my foot that I got during kind of my ashes, first ashes phase.
21:48
SPEAKER_02: And I wrote, Because of you, I will not fail, as like my promise to my kids.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: So that's where I first started with like Phoenix thing.
21:55
SPEAKER_02: But I just knew there was more to it, more depth.
21:58
SPEAKER_02: So uh we changed it to the spot.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: And and the book, the title is the up wait, let me get my note pulled up here.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Because it's um spiraling into control, not spiraling out of control.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: Because when I when you hear the word spiraling, you automatically want to say out of control.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: Like that so like when I saw that, I was like, oh crap, I love that.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so spiraling into control.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: And I think that I think the word control.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, I remember uh I told you about my trauma before we logged on, and um most of my listeners know about it.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: I've been open with it on here.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: And what I found very common with a lot of the stories that a lot of people that I have conversations with on here is we just want control back.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: We want to feel like we're in control.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: I want to feel like I'm in control of my recovery.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: I want to feel like I'm in control of how I heal.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: I hated the word cured because I knew that I knew that this man's fingerprints were gonna be on my body the rest of my life.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: Now, what I need to do is find the tools to keep in my toolkit to learn how to to deal with those spirals, you know.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: I guess like you you kind of refer to that, like my toolkit, you kind of refer to it as the framework, right?
23:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, I love that.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: And but I feel like that's been a common denominator with every conversation that I've had is I just want my control back.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: And you want that autonomy and agency over your own life and your own body.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what everyone wants, right?
23:24
SPEAKER_02: You and when you're dealing with some of these post-trauma experiences, you don't have that control.
23:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I talk about, you know, I had this like full-blown panic attack when I took my kids to the bowling alley one time, and they are climbing the rock wall and doing the kid thing.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: And this group of like eight-year-old kids came in for a birthday party and I lost it.
23:48
SPEAKER_02: I was having a full-blown panic attack, couldn't breathe.
23:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm like staring at my kids who are like 30 feet in the air, so I can't grab them and run.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I've never been hurt in a bowling alley.
24:00
SPEAKER_02: I've never been trampled by some birthday party.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: Like, why am I having a panic attack in this moment?
24:07
SPEAKER_02: But trauma shows up that way.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: You never know when it's gonna pop back up, and you never know why it's gonna pop back up.
24:13
SPEAKER_02: And now I know because I've done a lot of that work in myself, is it's a fear of escape that I couldn't escape it.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: There were so many kids around me.
24:23
SPEAKER_02: If something happened, I wouldn't have a means of escape.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: And so I realized that when I was like going to concerts with my husband, I was like, I need a door, I need an exit.
24:32
SPEAKER_02: And so now I know that that's my kind of panic moment, but it has nothing to do with what my actual trauma was.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: And right it shows up everywhere, and you just have to know how to handle that.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, mine would show up in traffic, yeah.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: And and my trauma, you know, wasn't it didn't involve cars.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, mine was stolen, but I wasn't in it when it happened.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, but but I actually used traffic as a ish one time, and then someone wrote and they were like, you know, that can be associated with your trauma.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, wait, what?
25:09
SPEAKER_00: And so like I started diving into it with my therapist and kind of find out it's that whole control thing, right?
25:13
SPEAKER_00: The person in front of me, the car in front of me is determining how fast I go.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: You know, like I'm I'm having to abide by them and what and and and their rules at that moment, and I'm pissed about it.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: So, but yeah, so yeah, I had I kind of had that moment that you're just speaking about so I can relate.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, each, I talk about how each state, you mentioned toolkit, has its own tools and its own strategies that work to help you master that state.
25:38
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I think a lot of times in this wellness culture of, you know, we're gonna heal you, they give you a toolkit but don't tell you when to use it or where to use it.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: So you have people activated that are going through this and they think, I should just sit still and meditate.
25:54
SPEAKER_02: At that point, meditation is the last thing on your mind, it's the last thing your body needs because right now it thinks that quiet and stillness is danger.
26:04
unknown: Right.
26:04
SPEAKER_02: So why are you forcing yourself into quiet and stillness?
26:07
SPEAKER_02: And meditation works great when you're in another state and your body is open to that.
26:12
SPEAKER_02: So I really talk about how we get handed this pamphlet of here's how you regulate yourself, but no one tells you that doesn't work all the time.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and it sets me up for failure, right?
26:25
SPEAKER_00: Like I remember so many times, especially in the beginning, when I was like, I'm supposed to breathe and I'm breathing, but I still feel like shit.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: But like, what am I doing wrong?
26:35
unknown: Yeah.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: So then it's I put the pressure on me that I'm screwing something up, I'm not doing something right.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to use my resources, I don't know how to use my tools, I'm failing at my own recovery.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: I've lost control, I'm spiraling out of control when I want to spiral into control.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: And that's you just like recited the middle half of my book because we talk about the shame spiral.
26:57
unknown: Yeah.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: And how, you know, then you start self, you know, producing all of that because you're like, oh, I suck at this.
27:05
SPEAKER_02: And then your brain starts going, remember that time that you sucked, and that time that you sucked, and that time.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: And now all you notice is that you suck.
27:12
SPEAKER_02: And so it just keeps going down this shame spiral where now it's not that the tool didn't work, it's that you're bad at it and you're a failure.
27:21
SPEAKER_02: Right.
27:21
SPEAKER_02: And so that's why I really said I wanted to reclaim that spiraling because you hear that, like, oh, she's spiraling.
27:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but we're all gonna spiral.
27:30
SPEAKER_02: That's life.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: Whether you want to spiral out or in, you know, is an active choice.
27:35
SPEAKER_02: And so really being able to reclaim that, where people can't just say, like, oh, she's spiraling.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: I want them to be like, oh, she's spiraling.
27:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I got this.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: And because um, okay, so that's kind of why I went with surviving, is because when I first used it, people were like, Well, no, you've already survived.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: You're you're and I've I I developed a love, hate, a lot of times hate relationship with um the word survivor.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: Like if I said I was a victim of a hate crime, someone would automatically want to stop me and say, No, no, you're the survivor of one.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: I let you know, I will let me choose that word.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and some people had a negative uh response to the word surviving because of uh that they look at it as at this negative thing, and I'm like, no, I want to I want to reclaim that, you know.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: Like I want I want that word to mean something different to me.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: I want the word victim because I was a victim in that moment.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was not surviving in that moment, you know.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: And if I was, I was holding on with duct tape and a prayer, and sometimes I still am, but you know, like I that's not where I was.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: Don't tell me where I was, let me tell you.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: So I wish I like when I'm listening to someone, I wish I hear the words that they use and I will mimic that for them, yeah, and not make that choice for them.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: So uh and language has so much power, but it doesn't have power till we give it power, right?
28:53
SPEAKER_02: So just because the world wants to tell me spiraling is a bad thing, I'm gonna tell you that spiraling can be a good thing and it can help completely change the way you look at life.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: And same way with surviving doesn't have to mean actively in the moment you're surviving what's happening, it's how you proceed because, like we said, it changes your body, it changes your brain chemistry.
29:18
SPEAKER_02: And so, yes, we are currently actively surviving and will be for the rest of our lives.
29:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think of it as like addiction, right?
29:26
SPEAKER_02: Like in addiction, you are always in recovery.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: You will never say, I used to be an alcoholic or an addict of some sort.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: It's always an active process, and it's the same thing with trauma recovery or you know, anything like that.
29:43
SPEAKER_02: It's an active choice every day to move forward in that.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: And just because it makes someone else uncomfortable doesn't mean you're not still living it every single day.
29:55
unknown: Yeah.
29:55
SPEAKER_02: And like, I'm sorry making you uncomfortable.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: Think of how I feel when I wake up with this every day.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think there gets to a point with, and I don't know that it's always meant to be ugly.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: I do know situations when it's sure, but there have were times that like when we were talking about like the guilt and the shame, you know, and and so I'm going to say that I screwed all this up.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: All this is wrong because of me, because I don't know the tools perfect, everything that the doctor gave me is perfect, I don't know how to use it because I'm a failure, you know.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: Um I know that there was times when when I would think, you know, uh the truth is I wouldn't be in this situation if it wasn't for my attacker, my bad guy.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: But then people would be like, Well, how long and how long can you use that excuse?
30:38
SPEAKER_00: And how long are you gonna play a victim?
30:41
SPEAKER_00: And and so so it got to where I have to have something to blame because this is not working, so there has to be a blame, yeah.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: That way I can fix it.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: And so now I have to inherit this and and I have to, you know, take the responsibility for when I wouldn't have been in the situation if it wasn't for this SOB to begin with.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: But now I can't say that because this bad person did this shit to me.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: Here I am because now I'm I'm playing victim because I need attention, you know?
31:09
SPEAKER_00: So I start blaming myself, and then I hate myself even more.
31:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we talk about you know, yeah, I you get these phrases that people think are helpful.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: And when you look at it from the other side, it's so not helpful.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, and the one I see so often is you're so strong.
31:28
SPEAKER_02: No, I'm not, I am falling apart.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: Just because I look strong and I can handle it doesn't mean you know that I've always been this way or that I'm this way inside of my body.
31:38
SPEAKER_02: And then the other was it wasn't that bad or some form of that, right?
31:44
SPEAKER_02: Because someone always had it worse.
31:46
SPEAKER_03: It could be worse, you know.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, at least, you know, and I I have a cousin that just got back from um active duty, and he's like, at least I, you know, have all my legs.
31:57
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, that doesn't change the fact that you went through something and you saw things and you had experiences.
32:05
SPEAKER_02: Just because someone else had a bad experience doesn't negate your bad experience.
32:10
SPEAKER_02: Like we can't compare trauma.
32:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's why so many people get diminished when it's mental, emotional, psychological.
32:22
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, Well, I mean, I seriously had someone one time say, Well, I mean, he didn't hit you.
32:28
SPEAKER_02: Right.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Oh, so the presence of bruises is what makes my trauma value, right?
32:34
SPEAKER_02: Not the fact that I lost myself, that I had no idea who I was, that I've been going through this for 10 years, but I didn't have bruises.
32:42
SPEAKER_02: So I mean, that's fine.
32:44
SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I hate that.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: I get so mad with that.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I want to ask you this, and I'm trying to find the right way to ask it, so you might have to help me along with this.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: But we know that in today's society, and especially we're still not in the gr uh the best place with mental health and and recognizing it.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: When you were having this battle with your mental health, um, you were a fairly new mother, right?
33:10
SPEAKER_00: So, so did they try to say, Oh, well, this is postpartum?
33:13
SPEAKER_00: Did they try to say anything other than the fact that you had uh that that your your mental health was not in a good place?
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm and forgive me if I'm not using the right kind of terminology.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: No, I totally get it.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I actually talked to someone this morning about postpartum depression, so that's funny you bring it up.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, because I mean, all of this really started, you know, it was going on before I had my daughter, but when I had my daughter, I think really catalyst a lot of things.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I actually adopted my son out of foster care.
33:44
SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
33:44
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so when he entered the picture, you know, he was seven and my daughter was two.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: And so I did get a lot of like, it's growing pains, you're just trying to figure out where you all land.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, no, there's something wrong.
33:58
SPEAKER_02: And that's when I turned into kind of that fireball of like, no, listen to me.
34:03
SPEAKER_02: Like, I have to prove myself.
34:06
SPEAKER_02: And no one should ever feel like that, that they have to prove that what they're going through is bad enough.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: That's where I was, where I just I was screaming at everyone, I was frustrated because I didn't feel like anyone was hearing me.
34:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so yeah, I didn't get as much of the postpartum because my daughter was about to when I had my fireball.
34:29
SPEAKER_02: Before that, I really was able to keep it together.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, and we talked about mentioning of uh high functioning depression, right?
34:35
SPEAKER_00: That's gonna be my next question, yeah.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so that's really where I was for over 10 years.
34:41
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I was on depression medications and anxiety medication, and it helped go, thank the Lord for prescription medications.
34:49
SPEAKER_02: I am not anti-med, but it also doesn't get to the root of the problem.
34:55
SPEAKER_03: Right.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: Uh, so traditional depression is a chemical imbalance.
34:58
SPEAKER_02: The meds help balance that out.
35:01
SPEAKER_02: But so much of what is called depression is actually complex trauma.
35:06
SPEAKER_02: And so, especially when you see people in what we call high functioning depression, is they're awesome on the outside.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: They go to work, they do the chores, they raise the kids, they appear as if everything's fine.
35:20
SPEAKER_02: And so we I rally against that word, I'm fine a lot because you know, you can look fine on the outside, but inside you feel nothing and you're just numb and empty.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: And no one checks on you, because no one checks on the person who's like out there killing it and the PTA mom or the soccer dad, or you know, the person who's out there doing what they need to do.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: And so you end up in this kind of state where you're so numb and so empty, but you're wearing this costume and this mask.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: And it's when that finally slips just a little bit, that's where you get that ember moment.
35:59
SPEAKER_02: We're like, hold on, this isn't me.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: This is a performance I've been putting on.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: And I think a hard part of that is when you're ready to stop performing, a lot of your life burns down.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: And that's where is there are people who are part of your life because they liked that performance.
36:17
SPEAKER_02: They liked you being the go-to person.
36:19
SPEAKER_02: They're like, you've changed.
36:21
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, but people don't like that.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: And so it really does start burning away parts of your life.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, you in high-functioning depression or in a lot of these kind of asheous states, you wear that costume.
36:33
SPEAKER_02: You're doing a performance of your life because inside you have nothing and you're numb and you have no idea what's happening.
36:39
SPEAKER_02: So you're performing capable.
36:41
SPEAKER_02: And then when you are willing to take that performance off, take that mask and costume off, a lot of people don't like that.
36:49
SPEAKER_02: They're like, no, I liked when you were compliant and when you were submissive and when you did everything I asked you to do.
36:57
SPEAKER_02: And so when we're able to look inside ourselves and say, this isn't right, we will lose a lot of pieces of our lives.
37:06
SPEAKER_02: And that can be really hard for people, but that's the flame is burning away pieces of your life that were only valid as long as you were performing.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: So friendships that were not really friends with you, they were friends of convenience because you were willing to do stuff for them or you said the right things to them.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: And it hurts.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: It hurts to lose friendships, it hurts to lose family members or people that aren't okay with you being you, but is it worth performing your life to keep that?
37:38
SPEAKER_02: Or do you want to live your authentic life?
37:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this I really want to check in and learn more about the high functioning depression.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know that I'd have heard that terminology before.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: And maybe I have, and it just wasn't resonating at the time for whatever reason.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: But like, you know, since we've been talking about it, and I've been watching some of your TikToks, uh, which we'll talk about, you know, and and reading about you and everything, it's just really been sticking with me because I know that there's and definitely not trying to diagnose myself by any means, but like I've learned throughout my 10 years of depression and recovery that when things start getting dirty, um, such as when my car starts getting dirty, when I'm okay with throwing clothes on the bedroom floor, when I'm always very clean, when I stop wiping a toothpaste off the sink.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: Like I find that those are the patterns that start happening when I start to spiral out of control, right?
38:36
SPEAKER_00: When when I know that I'm spiral, I don't want to say out of control, when I'm starting to spiral down.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: And I notice that another thing too is like when I'm getting into that spiral, it's exhausting, right?
38:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm dizzy and I will nap.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: And I will get up and I will take care of every obligation.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: If I'm scheduled to go to work, I'll go to work.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: If someone calls me and says I need you to come in, I can't.
39:00
SPEAKER_00: If if I have recordings scheduled, I make that.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: My hair's fixed, my spray tan's on point, my shirt is ironed.
39:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: But if it comes a Saturday or Sunday and I'm not working, I don't have anything scheduled, no obligation, I won't get out of bed unless it's go to the door to pick up my Uber Eats.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: And so now my bedroom is dirty, which you don't sleep good in, like all the stats on, you know, like where you're supposed to put your bed and sleep in a clean room, you know, my car is dirty, all these things.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: And so it's chaos down here, Tom.
39:31
SPEAKER_00: But then when it I can tell when I start spiraling back up, because it's like that moment that I get out of bed and I'm like, I want to hang my clothes.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: I yeah, I'm gonna go scrub my sink.
39:41
SPEAKER_02: I'm yeah, and that's the ember that we talked about.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: That all of a sudden you're like, what am I doing?
39:46
SPEAKER_02: Like, why am I laying here with clothes on my floor?
39:50
SPEAKER_02: Like, that's not me.
39:51
SPEAKER_02: And that's that moment where you're finally able to use the tools that are available to you and do that absolutely.
39:58
SPEAKER_02: I mean, and the problem is people have started using these terms, and you get it with high-functioning autism, high functioning ADHD, high functioning anxiety.
40:09
SPEAKER_02: And to me, it's really just a clever way to phrase you're dealing with something, and there's probably something deeper there.
40:19
SPEAKER_02: And that's usually some sort of some form of complex trauma.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: Because one of my soapboxes, and I'll give you a tiny soapbox, um, is that within the DSM 5, which is the diagnostic statistical manual, it's doctors like mental health bible.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: There's no mention of complex PTSD.
40:39
SPEAKER_02: There's no code for it, they can't bill for it, they're not taught it in medical school.
40:44
SPEAKER_02: The international version, the ICD 11, I believe they're on 11, does it have a complete section, codes, talks about symptoms, typology, pathology.
40:56
SPEAKER_02: And it was released about a year before the most recent DSM, and the DSM actively chose not to add that in.
41:04
SPEAKER_02: And so the biggest part of that, other than being a label, is that your doctor isn't looking for that.
41:12
SPEAKER_02: They're not trained to look for that.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: Even a lot of counselors and therapists, they're gonna call it depression, anxiety, a lot of borderline personality disorder, which is kind of one of those diagnoses of exclusion, like, I don't know what's wrong with you.
41:26
SPEAKER_02: So here's your label.
41:27
SPEAKER_02: You get with fibromyalgia turning into physical pains.
41:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, you a lot of autoimmune diseases, and it all stems back to the fact that you have complex trauma, that your nervous system is stuck in that fight or flight, and you need to be able to process that and let that fight or flight go and learn how to master that along the way.
41:49
SPEAKER_02: But no one's taught to tell you that.
41:52
SPEAKER_02: And so you get these labels, and so people think like I have high functioning depression, and I use that label and other labels to show people because that's what they hear that it makes sense.
42:05
SPEAKER_02: But honestly, underneath that is probably 90% of it is a complex trauma response.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to make sure I'm understanding.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: So I believe I was told that complex trauma is someone that has experienced repetitive trauma, like if you were in an abusive relationship.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: So, like my trauma, it was from a stranger I had never met.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: I would never have been able to pick him out of a crowd until I saw him in the courtroom.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: I've been in the same room with him a total of three times in my life, you know?
42:33
SPEAKER_00: So mine would not be complex trauma.
42:35
SPEAKER_00: But just because mine is not complex trauma doesn't mean that I'm not still going to have these battles with depression, right?
42:42
SPEAKER_00: Like there's nothing to be, there's nothing to minimize any of that.
42:45
SPEAKER_02: No, and that's so there's really like four types of trauma.
42:49
SPEAKER_02: And there's acute trauma, which is that one-time experience.
42:52
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
42:53
SPEAKER_02: But that doesn't mean it can't become complex trauma because of how you were talked to, how you were treated, any uh medical dismissal, any other experiences that surrounded that acute trauma can lead into complex trauma or chronic trauma.
43:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, and that's where we start getting people fighting for it, right?
43:14
SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, well, I mean, I didn't have this.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: I didn't have one event I can point to.
43:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you have one event, but you also had multiple other things that happened through trial, through, you know, having to recount it in detail, I'm sure, many, many times.
43:31
SPEAKER_02: And um, a lot of times we get it through medical dismissal of, well, if you're medically, you're fine.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: You're like, but I'm not.
43:38
SPEAKER_02: Like, and so yeah, acute trauma is one piece of it, but there's chronic trauma, there's complex trauma, and then like we talked about ambient trauma, and none of them are mutually exclusive.
43:50
SPEAKER_02: Like none of them are, oh, well, you you checked the box on acute trauma, so you don't get any of this stuff.
43:57
SPEAKER_02: Like you can get one, you can get four, depending on.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: How your life goes, and honestly, I argue anyone who has lived in the last six to ten years has some form of complex trauma.
44:08
unknown: Yeah.
44:09
SPEAKER_02: Uh, just because of like we talked about with the ambient trauma and the world we live in and the things we've seen, and especially in 2020, and I won't get into all that, but you know, you were thrown into a completely different life than you were living two days before that, and that's traumatic.
44:27
SPEAKER_02: Uh, so yeah, I mean, I think that's where you get into the competing between whose trauma is worse.
44:33
unknown: Yeah.
44:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, when can we all just agree that trauma sucks?
44:37
SPEAKER_02: Like right.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: And you know, like that's one thing that I've always said on this show is what I went through is the hardest thing that I went through.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: Right.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, what you went through is the hardest thing that you have gone through.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: And we don't compare because I was finding people, and it's all out of love, right?
44:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: Like I was finding people that I would be like, hey, we'd love for you to be a guest on my show and they're all about it.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: And then they would listen to my story to get a taste of the show.
45:01
SPEAKER_00: And then they would contact me and they would say, Mine does not compare, it doesn't touch what you went through.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: So I wouldn't feel right coming on your show.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no, baby, that that's not how this works.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: That's not how trauma works, you know, and that's definitely not how my platform is gonna work.
45:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm not here to say I survived everything and I'm better than anybody and my trauma's bigger, but absolutely not.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: But and I even talk to a lot of people that are adults and recovering from child sexual assault.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: And if there is anything worse, it's when it's happening to a child, you know.
45:34
SPEAKER_00: And I just I think that I can't touch that, you know.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: But then I have to remind myself we're not here to compare, we're just all here to love and help and uh and give hope and a safe place, you know.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: So so thank you for saying all that.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's one thing I really try to be so clear on is it counts.
45:53
SPEAKER_02: Like if it hurt you, if it altered how you lived your life, if it changed the trajectory of what you were doing, it counts, period.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: And for some people that may be living in an abusive, physically abusive relationship, a mentally abusive relationship, having acute trauma.
46:15
SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, it counts.
46:18
SPEAKER_02: And I talk about life being a piece of paper, and acute trauma is like you cut the piece of paper, you can clearly tell there was a cut in the piece of paper.
46:26
SPEAKER_02: You know, then you have complex trauma, which is you just shave the edge a little bit at a time, and so it's harder to tell.
46:32
SPEAKER_02: Like it's still a piece of paper, but it just keeps getting shaved a little bit at a time.
46:38
SPEAKER_02: And whether your paper got shaved or cut, it counts.
46:42
SPEAKER_02: And whether your paper got shaved 50 times or five times, it counts.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
46:48
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that because like I always think about things and see how deep I can take this, right?
46:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, I just love that.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: And I was just thinking how like you're shaving a little bit out of time, and I've noticed like when there's little things happening, at some point you're like, okay, I can't tell if something's missing here, if something's off here, but yeah, it's this paper and this analogy, right?
47:08
SPEAKER_00: Like, is this paper getting smaller?
47:10
SPEAKER_00: Is it and and so you know, and and to me, that's when I'm thinking back on people in my life when I can tell that something's a little different.
47:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
47:19
SPEAKER_00: Then, you know, maybe it's six months, maybe it's six years later, when it's six days later, who knows?
47:23
SPEAKER_00: I find out that they've been in an abusive relationship, or maybe they, you know, had a miscarriage, or maybe their husband had an affair or something, you know, and so so you're seeing those little like the paper it isn't complete anymore, isn't quite right.
47:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
47:39
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, it happens in relationships, it happens, and I try to be so clear with people, but it doesn't have to be a romantic relationship, right?
47:46
SPEAKER_02: Or a familial relationship.
47:48
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've worked with women who it's been a boss and them, like a boss that you could never please.
47:54
SPEAKER_02: Nothing you did was right, you know, they were always over your shoulder, they were always hanging your job over your head.
48:00
SPEAKER_02: That's another form of trauma.
48:02
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it can happen systemically, it can be a system that is traumatizing you, it can be a person, it can be so many things.
48:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think we get stuck in relationships or familial things when you know it can be so much more than that, and just because yours wasn't someone you were living with, it still counts.
48:25
SPEAKER_02: Like it's still there.
48:27
unknown: Yeah.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: Do you find that there's a pattern?
48:30
SPEAKER_00: Like if I was in an abusive relationship at home, um, for example, and let's say at work, I also have a boss, or even if I've left that relationship and I start a new job, you know, and I've got a boss, that is, I can't please him or her.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: I can't, you know, and so I guess that could be triggering, and it could either keep you there to kind of fall into the same habits, maybe like a is that kind of a common thing where it doesn't always have to be that you're going back to those romantic relationships that are some what whatever form of abuse, these outsiders could also be.
49:07
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, because our nervous systems do not communicate with our brain.
49:12
SPEAKER_02: So, no matter how we say this situation is different, our nervous system is gonna look for patterns.
49:17
SPEAKER_02: And I like to talk about it as like two different databases.
49:20
SPEAKER_02: So you have a threat database and a safe database.
49:23
SPEAKER_02: And when you're in a situation where everything is threatening, everything is doing that, you're filling up that threat database.
49:30
SPEAKER_02: And then so now every time your nervous system goes out to look for a pattern, it says, here's an experience.
49:36
SPEAKER_02: Have I experienced something like this before?
49:38
SPEAKER_02: If that threat database is overwhelmingly full and your safety database is not, it's gonna find a pattern a lot quicker.
49:46
SPEAKER_02: And so it's gonna say, threat, threat.
49:48
SPEAKER_02: But it also gets comfortable in that threat because that's where it finds patterns.
49:53
SPEAKER_02: So it begins to think, okay, maybe this isn't a threat.
49:57
SPEAKER_02: Maybe this is safe and these things are dangerous.
50:00
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, you leave the relationship, you leave the environment.
50:04
SPEAKER_02: But until you're able to teach your nervous system there's a new safe, it's gonna look for that same pattern.
50:10
SPEAKER_02: It's gonna find something that treats you that same way and that has those same responses because that's what it knows.
50:18
SPEAKER_02: And your nervous system always wants what it knows.
50:22
SPEAKER_02: And so it takes time to fill up that safety database.
50:27
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's where we get a lot of learned helplessness of why didn't you just leave?
50:32
SPEAKER_02: And it's because your nervous system has learned what you do doesn't matter, what you say doesn't matter.
50:38
SPEAKER_02: No matter what you do, you're wrong.
50:40
SPEAKER_02: And then it just looks for more places where that fits the pattern.
50:44
SPEAKER_02: So whether it's a job where, you know, you're being overlooked and you're being told you're bad, your nervous system is like, found it, found my place, because this is my pattern.
50:56
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, no matter how many pep talks your brain gives you, nothing's gonna change until you're able to create new safe markers.
51:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can't tell you how many times in my life, especially the past 10 years, that I've thought, okay, I'm uncomfortable, but I'm so comfortable in this uncomfortable feeling.
51:16
SPEAKER_00: And so that's what you're referring to, right?
51:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, exactly.
51:19
SPEAKER_02: And you know, when I met my now husband, I almost didn't go forward with the relationship because it didn't feel right, right?
51:28
SPEAKER_02: Like I thought I was supposed to have these sparks and these fireworks and this lightning, and it was like, but those are not actually good things.
51:36
SPEAKER_02: The fact that I feel safe and comfortable and have no physiological like response is the safe thing, yeah.
51:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we need to make that sexy, exactly.
51:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because it is right, like that needs to be that is the well, we shouldn't use the word spark.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: We need to find another like fun word for it, but that needs to be sexy.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: We need to make that sexy, yeah, yeah.
52:02
SPEAKER_02: The chaos and the like, oh, I'm so infatuated and it's all these things.
52:07
SPEAKER_02: The only reason we think that is love is because we've normalized that's what our body wants, but really it wants the safe, it wants the quiet, it wants I can blow up and be crazy and like have a pant a meltdown because dinner got burned, and he's just like, I'll order Uber Eats, it's fine.
52:27
SPEAKER_02: And like that's safe.
52:29
SPEAKER_02: But my response is still waiting for the you're bad, you're horrible.
52:34
SPEAKER_02: How could you burn dinner?
52:35
SPEAKER_02: Why are you such a bad mom?
52:37
SPEAKER_02: But I get the I'll order Uber Eats, it's fine.
52:40
SPEAKER_02: And my body's still like yeah, okay.
52:44
SPEAKER_02: So it takes time to fill up that safety database with those cues that your body goes, okay, this is normal.
52:51
SPEAKER_02: This is what it's supposed to feel like.
52:54
unknown: Gosh.
52:55
SPEAKER_00: I love the way that you explain things because so many of these things I've heard in other ways, but it's been very clinical, right?
53:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so it's kind of like when I was telling you about the politics stuff.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: I want to Davidify it, right?
53:08
SPEAKER_00: Not dive-fy, but what a Davidify where I understand and can and can communicate with it.
53:13
SPEAKER_00: And that that is something that you're completely blessed with doing just so naturally.
53:18
SPEAKER_00: No, thank you.
53:19
SPEAKER_00: I love these conversations.
53:20
SPEAKER_00: I would love to have you back.
53:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, absolutely, I would love to.
53:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I I feel like we had a really and I'm not completely done yet, but uh I know that it um you have kids and you probably have to do dinner and things like that.
53:32
SPEAKER_00: So I won't.
53:33
SPEAKER_02: You're good.
53:33
SPEAKER_02: Uh luckily, my husband's a truck driver, so he's usually not home during the week.
53:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but luckily he had some weird stuff going on this week, so he's home.
53:41
SPEAKER_02: So I was like, Nice, you got the kids.
53:43
SPEAKER_02: I'm good.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're gonna talk mental health.
53:46
SPEAKER_00: So, okay, I want to spend a moment.
53:48
SPEAKER_00: You have quite a following on TikTok.
53:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: And one of the favorites that I would love for you to talk about how you got into TikTok, and then like how you started like, did you just wake up one day and think, oh, people like me?
54:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, because I love, love, love the videos that you do that's unfiltered truths that your therapist won't say.
54:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: I didn't talk about those andor all of that.
54:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:10
SPEAKER_02: So TikTok was total accident.
54:13
SPEAKER_02: After I got laid off and I really went into my like research, like, I'm gonna figure this out moments.
54:19
SPEAKER_02: I had never been on TikTok.
54:20
SPEAKER_02: Even as a user, I never watched a TikTok video, but I didn't want anyone I knew to know what I was doing.
54:27
SPEAKER_02: And everyone knew me on Facebook and Instagram and those things.
54:31
SPEAKER_02: So I was like, I'm gonna start a TikTok.
54:33
SPEAKER_02: And so I just started posting videos, and you can go back to those early videos, they're rough, but it was like, you know what?
54:40
SPEAKER_02: I'm putting it out there.
54:41
SPEAKER_02: And I just started talking about what I was experiencing and what I was finding, and people started being like, me too.
54:49
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, you just described me.
54:51
SPEAKER_02: This is real, this is happening.
54:52
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, oh, this isn't just a me thing, like this, so many people resonate with this.
54:58
SPEAKER_02: And I started getting people DMing me, being like, How are you in my head?
55:02
SPEAKER_02: Like, what is this?
55:04
SPEAKER_02: And that's when I was like, this is helping people.
55:08
SPEAKER_02: And so I kept going and built this following.
55:11
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I do not take that for granted.
55:14
SPEAKER_02: I am so humbled by the fact that people want to listen to me and that the things I'm saying are helping and supporting them.
55:23
SPEAKER_02: And if they never do anything but scroll my video when they see it and listen to it, I'm happy.
55:28
SPEAKER_02: I want them to take from that what they can.
55:31
SPEAKER_02: And if they want to go deeper and they want to find out more and they want to, you know, get the book or listen to the podcast or buy the app or whatever, like amazing.
55:41
SPEAKER_02: But the fact that in 60 seconds I can help someone's light bulb click on or their Ember spark is so humbling.
55:49
SPEAKER_02: Uh, so I started just talking about symptoms I was experiencing, and uh the unfiltered truths came from kind of just a few creators I had seen that were like, what nobody will tell you, or you know, no one's told you this thing.
56:06
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, how many people are in therapy?
56:09
SPEAKER_02: And because their therapist is, you know, in this little DSM box, they're not told about these things.
56:15
SPEAKER_02: And it really started with, you know, my soapbox about the DSM and how people aren't told about complex trauma.
56:22
SPEAKER_02: I know when I first heard about it, I was like, what?
56:25
SPEAKER_02: Like, I know PTSD, like what's the C in front of it?
56:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
56:29
SPEAKER_02: And so I started just this unfiltered truths, your therapist isn't gonna say because not they're not because they're a bad therapist, they don't know, or they're not allowed to, or they have no idea how to manage that.
56:43
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I wanted people to know that there's more, uh, you know, then I'm not knocking therapy.
56:49
SPEAKER_02: I think talk therapy is a fantastic tool, just like all the other tools.
56:54
SPEAKER_02: But if you don't understand where it fits in your toolbox, it can just put a band-aid on things.
57:02
SPEAKER_02: And so I want people to have that language around things that if they take that into their therapist's office, maybe it'll unlock something.
57:12
SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's something they keep to themselves and deal with through a different way.
57:16
SPEAKER_02: But there's so much language that we don't see come out of the clinical world that people still need.
57:22
SPEAKER_02: And so that's kind of where that came from.
57:24
SPEAKER_02: And people liked it.
57:26
SPEAKER_02: And so I just kept going with it.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to see what else you do.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: I started following.
57:31
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, I love this conversation.
57:33
SPEAKER_00: So, is this your book behind you, spiraling into control?
57:36
SPEAKER_02: It is.
57:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes, this is spiraling into control.
57:38
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's available on Amazon and soon will be available on all the other places, Barnes and Nobles and all that.
57:45
SPEAKER_02: It's still going through the process, but it is on Amazon.
57:48
SPEAKER_02: Hardcover paperback, the audiobook will be out the end of what month is this?
57:53
SPEAKER_02: I almost said January, April, end of April.
57:56
SPEAKER_02: The audiobook will be out.
57:57
SPEAKER_02: I read it.
57:58
SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
57:59
SPEAKER_02: It's not a professional he produced, but it's me and all my raw authenticity.
58:04
SPEAKER_02: And it was really therapy for me.
58:08
unknown: Yeah.
58:08
SPEAKER_02: Because I talk about the spiral and everything we've discussed, um, using my life as examples of times when things have happened.
58:16
SPEAKER_02: Um, so it was really a labor of love.
58:18
SPEAKER_02: I finally had to have a publisher pry it from my hands so I would stop tinkering with it and adding things and taking out things, and they were like, it's done.
58:27
SPEAKER_00: You're done.
58:28
SPEAKER_00: It's done.
58:29
SPEAKER_00: Give it to me.
58:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
58:30
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that just means you can't.
58:33
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
58:33
SPEAKER_00: And maybe that means you just have more in the works.
58:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I definitely uh have at least two more books in there that I've already kind of started thinking about.
58:44
SPEAKER_02: I just I love writing, I love talking about all of this.
58:48
SPEAKER_02: And like I said, if someone gets 30 seconds of value out of something I have to say, then I've I've done my job.
58:55
SPEAKER_02: And that's what I'm here is to serve other people.
58:58
SPEAKER_02: And the fact that I get to do this for a living is the best thing ever.
59:04
SPEAKER_02: And I would never take that for granted.
59:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
59:07
SPEAKER_00: And one last thing that I want to say to you is oh my gosh, I'm treating you like the book.
59:12
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, nope, I'm not letting you go.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: I've got one more thing to say.
59:15
SPEAKER_01: So part two, part three.
59:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm happy.
59:18
SPEAKER_01: I love this conversation.
59:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, but I I love that you use your stories and your personal journey in your book because I uh and this is not a negative toward anyone in the mental health field, but I only was connecting with therapists that had been through things, and that wasn't just textbook.
59:42
SPEAKER_00: Now, I think there's the brilliance behind textbook, like I'm not knocking that by any means, but I personally just I wanted to talk to someone that knew the crazy emotional roller coaster I was on personally.
59:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that lived experience is so important because you can read about it all day long.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_02: And like we talked about the logical brain versus the nervous system.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_02: No matter how much you read and no matter how much you shove into your logical brain, you will never know that lived experience.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you can help and you can do amazing things with that logical part, but there's just something about that lived experience and knowing like they've been on this roller coaster, they've had those ashes days where they can't get out of bed, they've had those flame moments where they've lost friends because they're not willing to compromise.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I think that lived experience is so important in feeling like someone is coming alongside you and not talking down to you from you know this academic pedestal.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_00: Yes, beautifully said.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm gonna share all the links.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_00: And is this your studio that you're in?
1:00:50
SPEAKER_02: It is well, I mean, yeah, I guess we can call it that.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_02: It's my home office.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_02: So the other side is my desk, and then this is my little studio corner.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I love it.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_00: I am going to share all the links, and um, I love, love, love this conversation.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, let's reconnect.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_02: We're awesome.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.