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NZ Food Prices: What The Supermarket Debate Is Missing · Making Cents

• 0:00
  We grow enough food in this country to feed 40 million people, eight times our own population.
• 0:08
  So why does your grocery bill feel like it's eating your paycheck?
• 0:12
  Angela Clifford is the CEO of Eat New Zealand.
• 0:15
  She definitely has thoughts on this.
• 0:18
  She says, our food system right now is broken, but we absolutely have the power to fix it.
• 0:25
  Governments don't lead, they follow.
• 0:27
  And what they follow is cultural change.
• 0:30
  As people, we have the opportunity to choose what we think is acceptable or not acceptable.
• 0:37
  Angela is walking the talk here.
• 0:39
  She lives on a permaculture farm in North Canterbury, where roughly 80% of what her family eats, they grow, raise, or trade themselves.
• 0:49
  She reckons it's a mindset that could be applied to how our country overall looks after its food systems to make sure we're not vulnerable to things like supply chain shocks.
• 0:59
  Our food system isn't really fit for purpose anymore.
• 1:02
  It's being repurposed for people to make money from.
• 1:07
  And even if these big changes feel too much, too hard, there are things we can do as individuals this week in order to get our food costs a bit more under control.
• 1:18
  It's actually one of the most political things we do in our whole day, is choosing what to eat.
• 1:23
  So welcome to Making Sense, and it's the podcast people who want financial freedom without giving up their coffee.
• 1:29
  I'm Frances Cook, a financial journalist and fellow financial freedom seeker who makes money simple for you today, whether the food system is broken and how we fix it.
• 1:40
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• 1:42
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• 1:44
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• 1:58
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• 2:24
  Welcome.
• 2:24
  And I can't wait to talk to you more about our food systems because you're someone who is very much across the whole thing and you walk the talk because you live in North Canterbury, you grow a lot of
• 2:36
  your own fruit and veg, you have animals as well.
• 2:39
  It sounds from the outside very idyllic.
• 2:42
  I'm sure There's a lot more work to it.
• 2:44
  Tell me about this amazing lifestyle that you are living.
• 2:47
  Everybody else's lifestyle always looks aspirational.
• 2:51
  The grass is always greener.
• 2:53
  But yeah, no, we do.
• 2:54
  We live on a small farm in North Canterbury.
• 2:56
  It's a permaculture property, about 16 acres.
• 3:00
  We grow most of our own food, so we grow over 50 to 60 different types of fruit, 90 different types of vegetables.
• 3:09
  We have bees, milking cows, hens, ducks.
• 3:14
  I always forget someone, but that sounds like a good summary.
• 3:18
  At the moment, I live there with my husband.
• 3:21
  We are a teaching farm mainly now.
• 3:23
  We used to grow for our community, so we're a CSA and sell at farmers markets.
• 3:29
  But our purpose at the moment is teaching other people how to grow food.
• 3:34
  That sounds incredible.
• 3:36
  I read somewhere you had a different interview where you said if it wasn't for coffee and chocolate, you'd be pretty much self sufficient.
• 3:43
  I will say I do consider those things staple food items.
• 3:46
  But how close are you in reality to being self sufficient?
• 3:49
  Yeah, I always like to say that because I just refuse to give them up.
• 3:52
  They're foundational and my life wouldn't be the same without them.
• 3:56
  I'm also incredibly unlikely to grow them in North Canterbury.
• 3:59
  I would have to say we have a pretty good shot at it, but actually our philosophy has never been about being self sufficient.
• 4:07
  It's about community sufficiency.
• 4:10
  So this idea that we never want to close the gate, we always want to be able to go out into our community and trade and support other small food businesses where we can.
• 4:22
  So, for example, our milling wheat for our flour for our bread comes from just up the road.
• 4:28
  My neighbor grows amazing asparagus, so why would I not support her?
• 4:34
  Community sufficiency, I think, is what we're after rather than self sufficiency.
• 4:38
  I love that.
• 4:40
  And I also was thinking, you know,.
• 4:41
  When you were saying about all these.
• 4:42
  Different fruits and veggies that you have, I just had this moment of thinking, I bet they all come ripe at the same time.
• 4:50
  And then you have to.
• 4:51
  Yeah, the trading with your neighbors or the, you know, bottling or freezing or whatever.
• 4:57
  I bet that's very needed at that point.
• 4:59
  You always have that when it's like all the avocado trees are going now.
• 5:03
  Not so many avocado trees in North Canterbury, but that would be nice.
• 5:08
  But yes, you're absolutely right.
• 5:10
  So preserving, fermenting, transforming is a really big part of our lives, particularly over summer and autumn.
• 5:17
  And funnily enough, we're in what we call our Hungry gap at the moment, which is literally about six weeks of the year where we're not harvesting fruit.
• 5:28
  Rhubarb is just starting, but it really won't come on until strawberries, late October, early November.
• 5:36
  So it's kind of a weird little time.
• 5:38
  We were pulling very little off the farm.
• 5:41
  Obviously we're not going hungry, but it's something we really recognize and that's because we've used all our winter stores.
• 5:51
  But the soil isn't warm enough yet for new season crops to really get away.
• 5:56
  It's got its own specialness.
• 5:58
  There is, however, an avalanche of eggs.
• 6:01
  So as long as you like eggs, you're fine.
• 6:04
  I'm fascinated by this.
• 6:05
  I'm gonna have to make my way down at some point and come and have a little recce on your farm.
• 6:09
  I love this.
• 6:09
  Absolutely.
• 6:10
  Have to be fun.
• 6:11
  That'd be fun.
• 6:12
  And then you're also, you know, with all this spare time that I'm sure you have, CEO of Eat New Zealand.
• 6:18
  So this is very much a.
• 6:21
  Not just a lifestyle, but a little bit of a calling, it seems.
• 6:24
  Tell me about Eat New Zealand and your work there.
• 6:26
  What do you do?
• 6:27
  I have been leading Eat New Zealand for over a decade now.
• 6:31
  It's a not for profit collective and we sit across the food system.
• 6:35
  So from our farmers and our fishers through to our community leaders, chefs, nutritionists, academics, the whole gamut of the food system really.
• 6:46
  And our purpose is to reconnect people to our land and our ocean through our food.
• 6:54
  And our mission is to ensure that we have a resilient, just fair food system for all New Zealanders.
• 7:02
  Well, exactly, because I've certainly had a lot of messages, a lot of comments, a lot of emails, just a lot of communication in general with people struggling with food.
• 7:13
  Keeping food on the table, keeping food on the table at a reasonable price.
• 7:16
  I mean, even just mince prices.
• 7:18
  Mints used to be the thing that was in the supermarket you could always get, and it was cheap and you've got some protein on the table and you're good to go.
• 7:25
  And now people are just like, I can't.
• 7:26
  I can't even afford that.
• 7:27
  That's shot up.
• 7:28
  So I've had a lot of people messaging me saying they are feeling so squeezed, feeling so powerless.
• 7:38
  As someone who's in your really particular spot looking at the food system, what do you see as happening at the moment?
• 7:45
  Do you think we've got a problem?
• 7:46
  Yeah, I think things are changing and they're changing very fast, which is making people feel uncomfortable.
• 7:53
  For most of our lives, for most of us, food has been a relatively small part of our expenditure and so it's almost become invisible and that's starting to change.
• 8:05
  And as food prices go up and it's starting to play more of a role in our weekly budget, it's making us feel more uncomfortable.
• 8:14
  And I think that's the thing to recognise and acknowledge and to understand why that's happening and what sits behind that and also what we can do about it.
• 8:24
  What do you think changed?
• 8:25
  I think that we have experienced in our lifetime the financialization of our food.
• 8:31
  So.
• 8:32
  So basically our food system originally was designed to feed us.
• 8:37
  That was its purpose, which sounds common sense, but what we've seen is sort of a consolidation and a financialization of the players in our food system.
• 8:51
  And that means that the primary purpose now is to maximise profit for owners or shareholders in each part of the supply chain and that creates adverse outcomes for us as eaters.
• 9:07
  So in lots of ways our food system isn't really fit for purpose anymore.
• 9:12
  Like many other aspects of our lives, it's been repurposed for people to make money from.
• 9:20
  It's interesting, right, because I am a big believer in, you know, everyone's got to eat, but that's also often relies on money.
• 9:28
  And I want to see farmers well taken care of.
• 9:30
  I want to see people able to sell things in shops.
• 9:33
  But it also feels like there's a line on that.
• 9:37
  I mean, where do you see that?
• 9:38
  Because obviously people have to make a living, obviously they are going to farm in order to keep food on their own tables too, and the lights on.
• 9:48
  How do we draw that line?
• 9:50
  Like.
• 9:51
  Like where do you think it's got squiffy?
• 9:53
  Yeah, it's such a good question and I totally agree.
• 9:57
  Everybody has the right to reasonable livelihood and that includes our farmers and those that are producing our food.
• 10:03
  But interestingly, the financialization, the food system has also affected the returns our farmers get and so they end up being commodity producers, which means they're price takers, not price makers, and they don't have the power in the market
• 10:20
  to that they potentially once did.
• 10:22
  So it doesn't actually work for them either.
• 10:25
  So I'm not really sure.
• 10:26
  There's a very small group of people for whom the food system is currently working and I think the opportunity is to democratise that and ensure it works for a lot more people.
• 10:39
  Also acknowledging that our primary industry is a really big part of our GDP in New Zealand, but I just wonder if there isn't another food system we can pull up alongside, which has a different purpose, which is to
• 10:54
  feed us as New Zealanders.
• 10:56
  So if you could wave a magic wand, is there a main thing that you'd change?
• 11:00
  Oh, there's so many things.
• 11:01
  I would need a whole cupboard full of wands.
• 11:05
  To be fair.
• 11:06
  I think the one thing I always talk about is I'd like to see a plan.
• 11:10
  I'd like to see a vision, a north star, a compass point that we all collectively come to to say this is what we want from our food.
• 11:21
  And we haven't seen that there are no guardrails on our food system whatsoever.
• 11:25
  And so I think there's an opportunity to really rewrite the balance a little bit and to have some strategic vision over our food.
• 11:34
  Something like a national food strategy or plan or vision.
• 11:38
  It certainly feels like there's no plan currently, I mean, even.
• 11:41
  And this was a couple of months ago now.
• 11:43
  But we.
• 11:44
  We see things like processing plants shutting down, the, the canning or the.
• 11:48
  The processing of our food shutting down and going offshore, which to me I find quite worrying.
• 11:56
  What do you feel about that?
• 11:58
  Yeah, it's super interesting because I've been doing this for over a decade and there was so much something about things like the waties closures that made people really respond quite significantly.
• 12:11
  And the amount of media interest was really huge and it felt important.
• 12:19
  And so I was trying to think about that and unpack it and understand why.
• 12:24
  And I think you're right.
• 12:26
  We have for a long time been offshoring not only manufacturing, but our brands as well.
• 12:33
  So a lot of those brands that New Zealanders have come to know to expect to be New Zealand brands aren't anymore.
• 12:40
  They're owned globally.
• 12:43
  And so those global companies have different outcomes than we might have as New Zealanders for what they want those brands to do.
• 12:52
  And so, for example, you know, we're a South Pacific island nation.
• 12:56
  We're surrounded by one of the biggest economic exclusion zones for fishing in the world.
• 13:02
  And yet when we land some of our fish, we freeze it, send it off to Southeast East Asia where it is unfrozen, briefly crumbed, packaged and sent back to us to eat.
• 13:16
  It feels silly.
• 13:17
  I mean, it's just ridiculous on all sorts of levels.
• 13:20
  And there are examples like that across the food system.
• 13:24
  So we've sort of gone to this point of maximizing global efficiency and we've lost sight of the reasonableness of it all.
• 13:35
  I think.
• 13:36
  I imagine the justification given for that is that it's cheaper processing or cheaper overall and that someone who was running that system would probably say something along the lines of this keeps food prices down overall, even if it's
• 13:53
  sort of sending things here, there and everywhere.
• 13:55
  Do you think there's any merit to that argument?
• 13:57
  I think it keeps prices down, but externalities obviously really high.
• 14:03
  And some of those externalities are things like freshness or ability for us to access our own food as well as environmental outcomes.
• 14:13
  So I don't think that we're at a stage in the world where the only thing we can look at is, is price.
• 14:22
  I do believe that we have to bring another set of values to this conversation and to understand the impact of what we do when we make those decisions about keeping food cheap.
• 14:33
  And I think we can all be involved in that and that can be an ongoing discussion about what we want for ourselves and our families and our health and our community and our country.
• 14:45
  But just saying this is the cheapest way to do things is a very narrow conversation, particularly in the face of the fact that we have these global shocks which keep coming at us.
• 14:57
  And so what once might have been efficient may now be not efficient.
• 15:04
  And that sort of just in time, manufacturing and processing and supply chain may need to have some redundancy built into it.
• 15:15
  So just in time might become just in case.
• 15:18
  Do you think there's a way where we can balance those cost pressures and keeping things here in New Zealand?
• 15:28
  Can we have both the quality and the price controls or is it a bit of an either or?
• 15:34
  No, I think we absolutely can.
• 15:35
  But again, I think that looks like a different food system.
• 15:39
  So that's the food system that isn't about commoditization of food.
• 15:44
  That's the food system that is about feeding us.
• 15:48
  So it shortens supply chains, it brings things back into our communities, into our regions, into our country.
• 15:57
  And I think that's the sweet spot where we look at shortening some of those supply chains and we look at different places for our food.
• 16:07
  Mm.
• 16:08
  Certainly I've seen overseas some really big debates about some of the things that you've mentioned, particularly Britain.
• 16:15
  I've seen them having really big conversations about food security as part of this conversation about security of some of the basic necessities.
• 16:25
  One of the things that sparked off that conversation there is that some really severe weather events are expected to come and it could disrupt a lot of the food production.
• 16:34
  And they're talking a lot more about food security in Britain and whether they can keep shipping things in, whether they should be more self reliant.
• 16:42
  If there's sort of impacts of Other global players like Russia, which makes things more tricky.
• 16:47
  There's really big complicated conversation happening there and I look at New Zealand and I feel like it's a little bit crickets on that front that we haven't really had this conversation about.
• 16:58
  We import a lot, we export a lot.
• 17:01
  China, should we be more self reliant, should we be more self sufficient on these core things that people can't go without, like food?
• 17:09
  What do you think of that sort of self sufficiency debate and where New Zealand could land on it?
• 17:16
  I don't think it's just happening in the uk, I think it's happening globally.
• 17:21
  For example, Australia is consulting at the moment around a national food security strategy called Feeding Australia.
• 17:29
  So I think this conversation's happening in every country in the world and I absolutely think New Zealand's late to this party.
• 17:36
  And in fact, sometimes the way we define food security here is our ability to continue to trade and we even appear in other countries food security strategies such as Singapore, without having our own.
• 17:52
  So there is definitely a job to do and to reframe our thinking around what our food is for and to understand that we do need a food system, even if it's separate from our global exporting system, to ensure
• 18:09
  that New Zealanders have the ability to be well fed and to stay healthy so we can contribute as members of society.
• 18:18
  You know, we're looking at statistics now that suggest up to one third of New Zealand families are facing food insecurity.
• 18:26
  And in some communities that's as high as 45%.
• 18:30
  I mean, there are extraordinary statistics for such an abundant place on earth.
• 18:37
  And it's on all of us to really sit with that and to understand the impact that has on all of our lives if we can't contribute to thriving, healthy communities and societies.
• 18:50
  It's sort of an extrapolation of the issue with kids going to school hungry, right?
• 18:54
  And it's well documented, well known, if you've got hungry kids at school, they're not going to learn, it's not their fault.
• 19:00
  And it's also like education is one of the single biggest levers we can all pull as a society.
• 19:06
  Increase productivity of the nation, reduce crime.
• 19:09
  Like people need these options.
• 19:11
  And going to school with a full belly is a real easy win that benefits all of us for not very much money.
• 19:18
  And I look at that and I'm like, well, the kids is an easy one, but the adults, I'm sure, are facing similar things.
• 19:25
  The idea that we would have such a high percentage of New Zealanders struggling with their food.
• 19:33
  I personally find that quite horrifying.
• 19:34
  I feel like that should be a huge priority.
• 19:36
  Yeah.
• 19:37
  And interestingly, in 1979, New Zealand signed up to a global treaty that said that we would acknowledge that food was a human right.
• 19:48
  So we already have the basis for that legislation that says that this is how we see food as part of our lives as New Zealanders.
• 19:57
  So we already know what we should do, but we've just ignored that.
• 20:01
  And I honestly think that it doesn't sit well with any New Zealander.
• 20:06
  I think we were all raised understanding that this is an abundant country that can produce a lot of food.
• 20:13
  So I think it makes people feel uneasy to know that there are people who don't have access to it, and that's not okay.
• 20:19
  I think often the blame sits on the people themselves, and I don't think that's right.
• 20:26
  I think we need to look at their food environments and what they have access to.
• 20:30
  But also, I do think that we do have some agency.
• 20:33
  If we're in a place where we can afford food.
• 20:37
  There are lots of things we can do as New Zealanders to sort of claw back a bit of a bit of control here.
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  All right, back to it.
• 22:23
  I am very much a believer of it's both, you know, it's, we have a big system we all need to take responsibility for making.
• 22:30
  The system is working as well as it can.
• 22:31
  I look at the system currently and I'm like, there's some changes we might want to make here.
• 22:35
  And then as well, we are individuals within that system.
• 22:37
  And I look at that and I think, well, I'm also going to do the things that I can do to system change takes a long time and it's kind of easy sometimes to turn around and say, oh well,
• 22:48
  the system needs to change.
• 22:48
  And then you don't have to do anything yourself.
• 22:51
  And like, yes, system change needs to happen.
• 22:53
  Yes, let's push on that button.
• 22:54
  But also, if we can do something today, why wouldn't you?
• 22:57
  And so to me, it's a very both situation.
• 23:02
  But I'm really open to you disagreeing.
• 23:04
  I love having people on who have different perspectives.
• 23:06
  So please feel free to say if you feel differently.
• 23:09
  Like, how do you look at it in terms of that sort of individual versus collective responsibility?
• 23:16
  I look at it in that governments don't lead, they follow.
• 23:21
  And what they follow is cultural change.
• 23:25
  So culture changes.
• 23:27
  What is acceptable now might be different to what was acceptable five years ago or 10 years ago or 100 years ago.
• 23:35
  And culture is made up of people.
• 23:39
  So I think as people, we have the opportunity to choose what we think is acceptable or not acceptable.
• 23:48
  And I think that's where true transformation and change comes from.
• 23:51
  It doesn't come from government or industry changing rules and regulations or access.
• 23:57
  It comes from us as people.
• 23:59
  And so ultimately the beautiful extrapolation of that idea is that we actually have all the power.
• 24:05
  And I love that.
• 24:06
  I love this idea that we can be food citizens because we get to eat, if we're lucky, three times a day.
• 24:14
  It's actually one of the most political things we do in our whole day is choosing what to eat.
• 24:19
  And what I've discovered, and I think this is because food has been relatively cheap, is that we haven't really thought about it and it's become frictionless.
• 24:31
  So this idea that uber convenience is the driving force in terms of what we choose to eat.
• 24:39
  And it's gone from having supermarkets to having supermarkets delivered to us, to having food Delivery schemes where we don't even need to leave the house.
• 24:52
  And now we're looking at things like AI agents for our supermarkets.
• 24:57
  And so what that means is that you will no longer potentially choose what you buy each week.
• 25:04
  An AI agent will choose that for you.
• 25:06
  So you won't be selecting an avocado anymore.
• 25:12
  You will be allocated an avocado.
• 25:16
  And so this idea that all of our decision making and all of those moments of friction or moments of decision making might be taken away from us completely means that we're going to end up with a poorer outcome,
• 25:32
  both in terms of our own health, but also in terms of a food system.
• 25:36
  So, for me, this is the big thing.
• 25:39
  Resist the frictionless.
• 25:42
  Put a little bit of friction in your food.
• 25:44
  I should wear that on a T shirt.
• 25:46
  Put a little bit of friction in your food.
• 25:48
  I'll buy that T shirt.
• 25:49
  Yeah.
• 25:49
  Thanks.
• 25:51
  It's funny that you mentioned that, though, because there was this moment where the Internet is full of many horrors, but there was this meme that broke my brain a little, and it has, for this stupid little meme, totally
• 26:03
  changed how I look at things.
• 26:05
  Where it was someone, I think it was a tweet or something, where they'd said, uber Eats is just a private taxi for my burrito.
• 26:14
  I was like, oh, that.
• 26:16
  Yeah.
• 26:16
  When you think about it like that, oh, I need to get a private taxi for my burrito and get it chauffeured to me, I'm suddenly like, that is ridiculous.
• 26:25
  How do we get.
• 26:26
  That's stupid.
• 26:28
  Yeah.
• 26:28
  Yeah.
• 26:29
  And I'm so fascinated with this, with my children's generation, because actually, as I said, you know, we've got looks maxing and whatever.
• 26:38
  I reckon they're friction maxing.
• 26:40
  This rejection of this life where everything is decided for you, or that you.
• 26:49
  You're online all the time.
• 26:51
  Like, they're in for real experiences.
• 26:53
  They want to meet face to face.
• 26:55
  They want a little bit of friction and discomfort and intrigue and experience as part of their daily lives.
• 27:03
  So I actually reckon we're at the bottom of this curve and we're about to move into the space where we really do want to start taking more decisions or be more proactive.
• 27:13
  And I think that kind of matches up with this big growth in the understanding between food and health.
• 27:20
  And as we start to think more about how food impacts our health, then I think there's a really nice space where we get to be more proactive and take back more agency and more control about what we eat.
• 27:33
  That really ties into as well, your Point about the AI and stuff, because I was having a conversation with someone the other day about outsourcing and various things, and I am absolutely privileged enough to have a cleaner come
• 27:46
  into my home every fortnight.
• 27:49
  Love them, do an amazing job.
• 27:50
  Like, walk into that house on that Friday after they've been.
• 27:53
  And it smells good.
• 27:54
  And it's just like, yes, amazing.
• 27:56
  But someone talked to me about the idea of, oh, you know, you can get food prep done quite cheaply and they can come in and they can sort of set everything up for the meals for the.
• 28:05
  For the night.
• 28:06
  And I.
• 28:06
  For some people, that might be a lifesaver.
• 28:08
  Um, for me, I.
• 28:09
  I thought about something like that and I was like, but I don't want to outsource my life.
• 28:14
  And that's what it feels like sometimes.
• 28:16
  Sometimes it feels like outsourcing your life.
• 28:20
  I want to outsource my chores, sure.
• 28:23
  If I.
• 28:23
  If I can afford to do something and get a chore off my plate or a bit of work off my plate, sure.
• 28:29
  But to be touching your food, being part of your food, having that, be part of the rhythm of the evening with your kids.
• 28:36
  I worry about outsourcing our lives.
• 28:39
  And I think that's the exact thing that you're pointing at there, bringing some friction back in and being like, wait, but at a certain point we're missing life too, right?
• 28:47
  Yeah.
• 28:47
  And I often think about what happens when you've outsourced your life.
• 28:51
  It gives you the ability to work longer.
• 28:53
  Right.
• 28:54
  And is that life?
• 28:55
  And I can see that happening for so many families, you know, that need to work longer and longer hours.
• 29:01
  And so I see this as a form of rebellion, really.
• 29:05
  And I was recently staying with my sister and they have an amazing market quite close to them on the Gold coast in Australia.
• 29:14
  But she'd never been.
• 29:15
  And me, being who I am, was like, let's go to the local market.
• 29:19
  And so dragged my nephew and my sister along and they absolutely loved it.
• 29:25
  Everything about it.
• 29:26
  The vibe, the community, the people, the ability to access incredibly fresh, cheaper food that tasted better and the same in New Zealand, by the way.
• 29:37
  So the same basket of goods on the same day is cheaper at a farmer's market than it is at a supermarket.
• 29:44
  So let's not put that aside.
• 29:46
  If you want to save money, stop shopping for your fresh food at a supermarket, go somewhere else.
• 29:52
  What you'll find is that you will save money from buying fresh food elsewhere, even if it's an independent fruit and veg shop or an independent butcher, or if it's a market.
• 30:03
  All of those things will give you back agency and control and an ability to compare prices.
• 30:09
  And I think that's super important.
• 30:11
  So saving money, awesome.
• 30:13
  But all of those beautiful little moments of friction that community creates and then that becomes part of your identity.
• 30:20
  Do you know what I mean?
• 30:21
  That's what you do on a Saturday morning, or it's how you find your community.
• 30:26
  It's those beautiful moments of face to face conversation that we seem to be having less and less of.
• 30:33
  And that to me is the beauty of food.
• 30:35
  It's not just fuel, it's community, it's flavour, it's deliciousness, it's connection.
• 30:44
  And so when we start outsourcing all of those things, we lose a great deal, I think.
• 30:49
  Yeah, I think you're spot on.
• 30:50
  All right, well, we mentioned sort of that there's the community and the individual side.
• 30:55
  So we're gonna, we're going to have a look at both of those.
• 30:57
  You've started talking about the individual, so let's talk on that first and then we'll get to the wider political landscape.
• 31:03
  But if someone is having a think about this and saying, I am really struggling with food prices today, I need something that can help me out, that I can put into practice.
• 31:13
  Now, where should they start?
• 31:14
  Do you think what you are eating needs to change in the face of the fact that the food system is changing?
• 31:21
  So to really double down in terms of your cooking skills, your ability to cook from scratch will be super important.
• 31:28
  I understand these things take time and skill.
• 31:32
  People say to me, I don't have time to grow food and I reframe that as it's not a priority for you right now, and I totally get it, but acknowledge that and say, okay, if that's not a priority,
• 31:46
  what is my priority?
• 31:48
  And have I got my priorities straight here?
• 31:51
  So the opportunity to take back a little bit of control in terms of what you're cooking, what you're eating, where it's coming from will, I think, overall save you money, but also make you feel like you're back in
• 32:06
  control of this whole situation, rather than rocking up to the supermarket next week and looking at your receipt afterwards and going, how did that happen?
• 32:15
  Do you know what I mean?
• 32:16
  You just a little bit more engaged, so you're more likely to notice those changes.
• 32:22
  That's tapped into something I've been doing a little bit in my personal life where I've quite recently had a bit of a shift in terms of if I'm wanting to change a habit, it's literally Just a mindset change,
• 32:34
  but I found it really powerful.
• 32:37
  It's not that I need to do this thing because it's good for me, because who wants to do something for that reason?
• 32:44
  It's.
• 32:45
  This is my new hobby and I am going to be joining Reddit communities about it, or following some people on Instagram to learn about it, or I'm going to be.
• 32:55
  I'm going to be looking into this and treating it as a hobby that I'm interested in and learning more about it every day and treating it as a joyful thing.
• 33:05
  It literally hasn't changed what I physically do, it's just changed how I feel about it.
• 33:12
  Yes, it can take time, as you say, but once you bed these habits in, it'll not take anywhere near as much time.
• 33:19
  But also if you treat it as a joyful thing and find the bits of it that you enjoy and lean into those more, that's the way to do it without feeling like you're trudging through life.
• 33:28
  Right?
• 33:28
  Oh, and 100%, I can guarantee you right now that it will be more delicious, that it will have more flavour and be more satisfactory to get all these beautiful, really positive feedback loops by making that change.
• 33:42
  And I'd even take it one step further than, rather than just being a hobby, saying, this is who I am now, this is me, this is my identity, this is connected to me living my best life, being who
• 33:56
  I want to be.
• 33:57
  That's what's been taken away from us under the guise of uber convenience.
• 34:01
  This idea that we're just gonna make your life a little less frictionless so you don't have to worry about that.
• 34:08
  And you lose so much in that moment, you start losing parts of yourself.
• 34:12
  And so I think this is the real opportunity is to pull it back and say, actually, I really enjoy gardening.
• 34:19
  It makes me feel good, it gets me outside, gets my hands in the dirt, makes me feel connected to the natural world or actually, I really enjoy the challenge of cooking and there's lots of other ways that you
• 34:34
  can engage with cooking through cookbooks and shows and just it's a way of experimenting or being creative.
• 34:41
  So, yeah, I think you get so much more out of it than what you expect every time you make that little change.
• 34:48
  If we go bigger, then we did touch a little bit on the politics of it all before.
• 34:52
  And I'd love to know, you know, we're coming up to an election and I've seen a bit from politicians on this, not heaps more, more in some areas than others.
• 35:02
  Have you Seen any sort of green shoots in this area from the politicians as they're having these conversations, anything that you look at and think they're paying attention to the right areas or there areas that you're like, guys
• 35:15
  over here, why is nobody talking about this?
• 35:17
  I'm honestly amazed that more political parties haven't seen the opportunity to talk about food, because here I am and you're interested in talking about food and most New Zealanders right now interested in talking about food, the cost of
• 35:35
  it, where it comes from, the effect it has on our health.
• 35:38
  So I'm like, this is a mistrick, but I am starting to see green shoots, remembering that I'm the one with the microscope on the ground compared to most other people, but I really am.
• 35:53
  And so for the first time this election, we're starting to see things called food policies which sit separate from farming or sit separate from emergency food response, much more holistic perspectives that look at the whole of the food
• 36:08
  system.
• 36:09
  So how food interacts with our environment, how it interacts with our health, how it interacts with our communities.
• 36:15
  I think there are some parties that have pick that up quickly and then others that are being much slower about it.
• 36:23
  I still have hope we eat.
• 36:26
  New Zealand's involved in something called Vote for Kai, which is a collective of food organisations leading the call to put food on the plate in terms of this election.
• 36:38
  And we're having a series of webinars coming up to bring the parties together to go.
• 36:43
  So what about food?
• 36:44
  But I concede that there's still national debates about farming on television, but there's not a national debate about food.
• 36:55
  And you know, only 16% of us live rurally and regionally one of the most urbanised countries in the world.
• 37:03
  I would have thought there was more appetite, excuse the pun, for a national debate about food than there necessarily was about farming per se.
• 37:14
  So I think we've still got a way to go.
• 37:17
  But I can definitely see those little bean sprouts coming through the soil and I'm so here for it.
• 37:24
  Is there like a big lever that government could pull that they're not at.
• 37:29
  The moment, Food sits across many different ministries.
• 37:34
  So if you ask me who's the ministry that's responsible for food, I couldn't answer you.
• 37:41
  Mpi, maybe.
• 37:42
  But their remit is the economic acceleration of our primary industries and food safety.
• 37:49
  Ministry for Education, potentially, because they've got the school food program.
• 37:54
  Is it the Ministry for the Environment?
• 37:55
  Because they look at things like food waste?
• 37:58
  Is it MB and their responsibility around hospitality and tourism, like who's in charge of food?
• 38:06
  So I want someone in charge of food.
• 38:09
  I want a food minister.
• 38:12
  And that minister should have a working group that's cross ministry that can contribute to some big long term strategic thinking about our food.
• 38:23
  So that would just be such a simple thing to do right now.
• 38:26
  That would pull in everything from our grocery concerns to the impact our food is having on our environment, to the connection between food and health and the outcomes we're having there, to food insecurity.
• 38:40
  You know, it could pull all of these things together.
• 38:42
  If that person did get put in place, what would be an area that you think they should focus on first?
• 38:47
  I mean, I know there's been a lot of talk about things like the supermarket duopoly.
• 38:50
  Do you think that would be first on the list or something else?
• 38:54
  I get worried about talking about supermarkets too much because we end up defining our entire food system through supermarkets.
• 39:00
  And I would just like to say there is a version of a food system that doesn't have a supermarket.
• 39:05
  So I just want to preface that before we begin.
• 39:08
  But yes, obviously New Zealand has found itself in an unfortunate position where we lack competition at a grocery level.
• 39:17
  And I think that's clearly a place to begin and to consider what some alternatives could be.
• 39:23
  So I'm not convinced that, that the answer to supermarkets is more supermarkets.
• 39:28
  I do wonder about what the alternative food systems we can create support resource hold space for could be used to feed us as well.
• 39:39
  Interesting.
• 39:40
  So would you have in there things like.
• 39:43
  I know a lot of people have some sort of quite direct farm deliveries, you know, the wonky boxes of the world or the, you know, the farm box deliveries, like you said, the local butcheries.
• 39:56
  Is it things like that or is it a different system from that again?
• 39:59
  Yeah, I do think it's things like that.
• 40:01
  And if you think back sort of 50 or 60 years before supermarkets were such a big part of our lives, what existed then?
• 40:09
  Where did we find our food?
• 40:10
  How did we get?
• 40:12
  May also be that how our supermarkets are owned needs to change so that their primary purpose isn't maximizing shareholder return or making profits for owners, but that their primary purpose is to feed us.
• 40:26
  If someone's listening to this and we've all got time, poor lives, we're trying to do the best we can.
• 40:31
  And they're thinking, okay, I just need something to make things a little better this week.
• 40:35
  What do you think is something someone could do quite quickly this week to make a difference on their food bill, their food quality, whichever you think is more important.
• 40:45
  I think both are important.
• 40:47
  So here's a simple one.
• 40:49
  This weekend, find your food system, find your food people.
• 40:54
  We all have hairdressers, we have people who do our nails.
• 40:56
  Well, maybe not me, but do you know what I mean?
• 40:59
  And they're our people.
• 41:00
  They're people we go back to all the time.
• 41:01
  They're people we have a relationship with and we trust them.
• 41:04
  Trust them with our nails and with our hair.
• 41:07
  So find your food equivalent.
• 41:09
  Go and find your food people.
• 41:11
  Invest in them right now.
• 41:13
  And because you talk about investment, right?
• 41:15
  And we see investment as something we can do now that might not give us gains straight away, but that we have opportunities to hold off for reward.
• 41:29
  And I believe that right now is the time to invest in your local food system and in your food people.
• 41:38
  And that will pay you dividends in the long run.
• 41:41
  And because it's springtime and we're stepping into this growing season, I'd always also encourage people to maybe just get a couple of pots.
• 41:50
  Even if you're in an apartment and you've got a balcony that doesn't face south, south facing balconies, that's tough.
• 41:57
  Maybe find your local community garden.
• 42:00
  But if you don't, if you have even a north facing balcony, just two decent sized pots, one with saladings, so they're just lettuce seedlings, spinach rocket, that kind of thing, and then the other one with herbs, just with
• 42:15
  fresh herbs.
• 42:16
  And that alone could save you so much money because bags of salad greens are expensive, herbs are incredibly expensive.
• 42:25
  And that's such an awesome feeling, such a sense of achievement when you make that salad, and maybe it's only one salad, and then you've realized that you should have planted some more afterwards.
• 42:35
  But that's part of the journey and part of the adventure, you know, just to start small, have some success, and then see where it leads you.
• 42:46
  I gotta say, as well, when you support these local outfits, you just never know what's coming next.
• 42:51
  Myself living in the Waikato, there is an abundance of milk around us.
• 42:57
  And so we do get actually milk delivery every single week.
• 43:00
  We're locked into a service.
• 43:02
  Um, beautiful, really fresh milk gets dropped off every Tuesday in their van, which when they back up, instead of it beeping, it moves.
• 43:13
  And you would not believe how delighted my 5 year old is with that.
• 43:18
  If he's home for the milk delivery, he's pressed against the front door waiting for the truck to back up and move.
• 43:24
  So you might get milk and a show, you just never know.
• 43:27
  Dinner and A show.
• 43:29
  And that's what I'm talking about.
• 43:30
  Food, right?
• 43:31
  It's so much more than something that fuels us, it's an experience.
• 43:36
  Most New Zealanders I talk to now have a story, a little bit of that, which is really encouraging, which tells me that things are changing.
• 43:45
  All I would say is to understand how incredibly difficult life is for our small food producers at the moment and to understand how much they need us.
• 43:55
  So, for example, Eat New Zealand has a grain mark.
• 43:58
  We're working with the foundation for Arable Research, and that's because our arable farmers, so the ones that grow our seeds and grains, everything from oats to milling wheat to seed oils to barley for beer, you know, the whole
• 44:12
  spectrum, are really struggling.
• 44:15
  They're not getting enough money for what they're growing at the moment.
• 44:18
  And that land is being converted to other farms because you can make more money from it.
• 44:26
  And it means that we're losing those farmers and then potentially we lose the infrastructure.
• 44:31
  And as a shopper, it's as simple as turning the bag over to discover whether that grain is grown in New Zealand.
• 44:39
  So we've got a little mark that says New Zealand grown grains, and I think about that all the time.
• 44:44
  If you want to take back some.
• 44:46
  Some power and control, it may just be as simple as turning the packet over and acknowledging where that comes from.
• 44:55
  It may not change what you purchase, but at least you've acknowledged it and you've made a connection back to where it's come from.
• 45:04
  So even if you can't find your food people, even if you can't start your saladings in your herb bucket, turn the packet over.
• 45:13
  And potentially, as you were saying earlier in the pod, cutting out the middleman a little bit, if you're getting that New Zealand produced and then straight to your home, hopefully cheaper, going straight to the farmer, everyone's doing a
• 45:26
  bit better, right?
• 45:27
  Everyone.
• 45:28
  So the people around you are thriving, which builds our economy, which means that we're all better off.
• 45:33
  We are a food collective as a country and we're quite small, so when we all put our shoulders to the wheel, we can actually make quite a lot of change.
• 45:43
  We can also lead the world by being innovative in this space.
• 45:46
  So when we talk about food innovation, it doesn't just have to be technology, it can also be innovation in terms of systems.
• 45:54
  We can be extraordinary if we choose to.
• 45:57
  So interesting.
• 45:58
  Thank you so much for coming in.
• 45:59
  Angela Clifford, Eat New Zealand.
• 46:01
  I've really enjoyed this chat with you.
• 46:03
  It was a delight and I'm definitely going to just stalk you and turn up at your Canterbury farm at some point.
• 46:09
  Please do.
• 46:09
  Sounds great.
• 46:11
  I promise I'll get the cow to moo as it backs up.
• 46:14
  Excellent.
• 46:14
  I'll bring the five year old and he'll be stoked.
• 46:16
  Yeah.
• 46:19
  Thank you so much.
• 46:20
  Now, if this episode was helpful for you, send it to a friend.
• 46:23
  We can all level up together.
• 46:25
  Until next time, have a great day.
• 46:29
  This podcast can only give you general information about how things work in most situations.
• 46:34
  It's not individual financial advice.
• 46:37
  If you're after that, a financial advisor is always the best bet.