Latest / To All the Men I've Tolerated Before / Dating tips from a Divorce Attorney

Transcript

Dating tips from a Divorce Attorney · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, this is Natalie with your pre show reminder
0:04
Speaker 1: that we have revamped our entire Patreon page for twenty
0:08
Speaker 1: twenty six. Now on Patreon, you can enjoy even more
0:13
Speaker 1: free content like our newsletter and some curated blog post
0:19
Speaker 1: if you follow the link in our show notes to
0:21
Speaker 1: sign up for our free tier. Our Patreon will be
0:25
Speaker 1: working as our website and in case anything goes weird
0:30
Speaker 1: with any of the other social media apps, it will
0:33
Speaker 1: also be the best way for you to connect with
0:36
Speaker 1: us from a social media mindset. For our paid tiers,
0:41
Speaker 1: you can look forward to even more blog posts written
0:44
Speaker 1: by me about the misogyny in real time I am experiencing,
0:50
Speaker 1: as well as ad free listening and bonus episodes that
0:54
Speaker 1: will report on misogyny within the world, within my own life,
1:00
Speaker 1: media that is confronting misogyny or god forbid, perpetuating misogyny,
1:06
Speaker 1: and some advice that is better served behind a pay
1:11
Speaker 1: wall because we all know how mouthy I can get,
1:15
Speaker 1: so please enjoy this episode and then after the show,
1:18
Speaker 1: go check out all of the things that are posted
1:21
Speaker 1: on our Patreon. We have chats there where you can
1:25
Speaker 1: easily get a hold of me to do things like
1:28
Speaker 1: suggest episode topics or guests, or introduce yourself and start
1:33
Speaker 1: to help me build a tolerator community. Love you all, talk.
1:38
Speaker 2: To you soon, Hey, tolerators.
2:01
Speaker 1: Listen is to all the men I've tolerated before with
2:04
Speaker 1: Namble Katona, your weekly look at everyday misogyny. Our guest
2:08
Speaker 1: today is Sarah Interlligator, and Sarah is a family law
2:11
Speaker 1: and attorney. I can speak attorney, an author of the
2:16
Speaker 1: book Live, Laugh, Fine, True Love, A step by step
2:19
Speaker 1: guide to dating and finding a meaningful relationship by a
2:22
Speaker 1: divorce Attorney. Attorney. Welcome, Sarah. Apparently I'm not qualified to
2:28
Speaker 1: even talk about your job. Let alone do it.
2:31
Speaker 3: That's okay, I'll take the reins. I'll just speak. Don't
2:34
Speaker 3: worry about it, you just chill.
2:35
Speaker 1: Yes, well please let you're a new guest. You're a
2:38
Speaker 1: new friend, so let the listeners know who you are
2:41
Speaker 1: and what you're all about.
2:43
Speaker 4: Okay, cool. Yeah.
2:44
Speaker 3: My name is Sarah, as you said, and I'm also
2:47
Speaker 3: an attorney. As you said, I practice. I coined the
2:51
Speaker 3: term holistic divorce and Family Law to describe my style
2:54
Speaker 3: of practice a family law and that really is just
2:58
Speaker 3: you know, something that I made up. It's not like
3:01
Speaker 3: a legit like real term out there, and essentially what
3:05
Speaker 3: it refers to is obviously, as a family law attorney,
3:08
Speaker 3: I have all these ethical obligations, and I have to
3:11
Speaker 3: diligently and zealously represent my clients and all that good stuff.
3:14
Speaker 3: But I kind of take it upon myself to take
3:16
Speaker 3: it one step further, which is to make sure that
3:20
Speaker 3: I am looking at my clients as human beings and
3:23
Speaker 3: not just billable hours, and that I'm really looking at
3:25
Speaker 3: them from like a very holistic perspective. I'm looking at
3:29
Speaker 3: them as real human beings who have children. I'm dealing
3:32
Speaker 3: with their finances and dealing with the most important things in.
3:36
Speaker 4: Their lives, their kids, and so I'm really trying to.
3:39
Speaker 3: Help them navigate this really difficult process and to hold
3:43
Speaker 3: their hand through it on an emotional level as well
3:46
Speaker 3: as being their attorney.
3:47
Speaker 4: Well, thank goodness for people like you, Oh, thank you.
3:52
Speaker 1: Go on, Oh my goodness, I know, because seriously, my
3:55
Speaker 1: next follow up question was do you find that people
3:59
Speaker 1: are very well equipped in the I guess art of
4:04
Speaker 1: divorce or the art of marriage that at that point too, No.
4:10
Speaker 3: Absolutely not no to both of those questions.
4:15
Speaker 1: And I think that we've had an episode a long
4:19
Speaker 1: time ago about just the stigmas surrounding divorce. And I
4:22
Speaker 1: feel like a big theme of this podcast is if
4:26
Speaker 1: a stigma exists, then your mom, your aunt, your grandma,
4:30
Speaker 1: they never took time to teach you anything about it
4:33
Speaker 1: because they were just hoping that you could avoid it.
4:36
Speaker 1: But then all of a sudden, like you have all
4:40
Speaker 1: of these like things pushed against you or integrated into
4:46
Speaker 1: your life that are incorrect because no one's talking openly
4:50
Speaker 1: about their experiences.
4:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's true in some cultures and communities.
4:58
Speaker 3: I think that there's actually a lot less stigma around
5:01
Speaker 3: divorce these days than there was like back in the
5:04
Speaker 3: old times. And you know, and I think that, like
5:08
Speaker 3: I said, certain stigma still exists in like religious communities
5:10
Speaker 3: are certain you know cultures where like you do not
5:15
Speaker 3: get a divorce, like the whole the whole town, the
5:17
Speaker 3: whole village is going to know about it sort of,
5:21
Speaker 3: you know, even if it's here in Los Angeles or
5:24
Speaker 3: like pockets of cultural communities, but they're all going to
5:26
Speaker 3: know and they're all going to be talking about it.
5:29
Speaker 3: And but I think for the most part, I think,
5:34
Speaker 3: if anything, I think.
5:35
Speaker 4: That the you know, gen Z.
5:37
Speaker 3: Millennial generations are actually very like blase about marriage in general.
5:42
Speaker 3: They're kind of thought as well, we can always get
5:44
Speaker 3: a divorce. I think gen Z in particular is just
5:48
Speaker 3: shying away from marriage altogether.
5:50
Speaker 4: But I think that there's just this whole.
5:52
Speaker 3: Kind of you know, kind of people are not really
5:58
Speaker 3: all too concerned about divorce and is kind of like
6:00
Speaker 3: one of those things.
6:01
Speaker 4: Like it's just like a breakup.
6:03
Speaker 1: Yeah. Uh so, I'm currently well, I've always lived in
6:07
Speaker 1: the Midwest. I just used to live in Dayton, which
6:09
Speaker 1: was a larger city in the Midwest. But I'm back
6:12
Speaker 1: to my small town routes, and I find that there
6:17
Speaker 1: is a lot of fear to at least even start
6:24
Speaker 1: the concept of filing for your own divorce or even
6:28
Speaker 1: bringing into question if your marriage is something that you
6:33
Speaker 1: want to have last for the rest of your life
6:35
Speaker 1: or forever. And I wonder if, because your book is
6:40
Speaker 1: about a guide to dating and finding a meaningful relationship,
6:44
Speaker 1: what are some things that you've learned from your clients
6:47
Speaker 1: and your experiences that made you sit down and write
6:50
Speaker 1: a book.
6:53
Speaker 4: I've seen I've seen stuff.
6:57
Speaker 3: Well I've been in my own divorce and married now,
7:00
Speaker 3: but I've been through my own divorce. I've been practicing
7:03
Speaker 3: family law for close to twenty years, and I've watched
7:06
Speaker 3: very very many good people and some not so good
7:09
Speaker 3: people go through their own divorces, and you know, it
7:13
Speaker 3: really sucks. It's not a fun thing. It's horrible, it's
7:17
Speaker 3: financially draining, and probably the worst of it for me
7:22
Speaker 3: is that people who do have children and who you know.
7:27
Speaker 4: Most people who need a lawyer for the most part.
7:30
Speaker 3: I mean, I do have some amicable cases come through
7:32
Speaker 3: my doors, but for the most part, it's because things
7:35
Speaker 3: are so contentious that they need lawyers. And so I'm
7:38
Speaker 3: seeing the worst of the worst, and I'm watching what
7:41
Speaker 3: they're doing to their children, and to me, that's just
7:44
Speaker 3: the most heartbreaking and heart wrenching thing. And if I
7:46
Speaker 3: can prevent even one child from going through this, then
7:51
Speaker 3: to me, that's that's worth it. So that was sort
7:54
Speaker 3: of the impetus for writing this book, is like, I
7:57
Speaker 3: see where things go wrong on a daily basis.
7:59
Speaker 4: I've gone I've been.
8:01
Speaker 3: The one going you know, through it, I've done it myself.
8:04
Speaker 3: I've gone wrong. And the patterns that I see in
8:08
Speaker 3: all of these cases are just so unmistakable, just the
8:12
Speaker 3: same thing over and over and over again, including in
8:14
Speaker 3: my own divorce, and so I felt like I have
8:17
Speaker 3: this information as wealth of knowledge, I need to share
8:19
Speaker 3: it with people so that they don't repeat these same
8:22
Speaker 3: patterns and make these same mistakes and end up divorced,
8:24
Speaker 3: and in doing other than what these people do, then
8:29
Speaker 3: hopefully they can actually find them meaningful and fulfilling relationship.
8:33
Speaker 1: Yeah. Uh, what are some of the tips to finding
8:40
Speaker 1: your meaningful relationship?
8:42
Speaker 4: All right?
8:43
Speaker 3: So I break it down into like the dirty efforts,
8:46
Speaker 3: like the sale factors, and there's six of them.
8:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, really bad bad efforts.
8:50
Speaker 1: I loved.
8:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that. It's not what you're thinking that
8:53
Speaker 4: there are.
8:54
Speaker 3: There are other dirty efforts, Okay, and you know, we
8:57
Speaker 3: can talk about each an individual if you want. But basically,
9:00
Speaker 3: the six patterns that I see are fundamental values, meaning
9:06
Speaker 3: people don't share fundamental values in our line and their
9:08
Speaker 3: fundamental values, fear, foundation, fixing, family, and fairy tale. And
9:15
Speaker 3: we can go into any of those if you want,
9:17
Speaker 3: but those are like the six dirty passwords.
9:21
Speaker 1: I think I do want to tackle fundamental values. I
9:25
Speaker 1: was talking on the phone with a friend today and
9:27
Speaker 1: we just got into like our self growth process during
9:32
Speaker 1: the lockdown part of the quarantine or the shelter in
9:35
Speaker 1: place part of it. I don't know what we're supposed
9:38
Speaker 1: to call it now. I feel like it had eighteen
9:40
Speaker 1: different names. And one time I said shelter in place
9:43
Speaker 1: and they were like, is that what your governor called it?
9:45
Speaker 1: Because that was cute. I was like, yeah, that's what
9:48
Speaker 1: we called it. And how a lot of people got
9:53
Speaker 1: to discover a lot of new things about themselves because
9:57
Speaker 1: you just had time to think and be in a
9:59
Speaker 1: house and how I was like, yeah, I go. I
10:03
Speaker 1: think that one of the biggest trends that I was
10:05
Speaker 1: clued into was a lot of women were looking at
10:09
Speaker 1: their husband going, oh god, you like, what did you
10:14
Speaker 1: just say about politics and women? And it was like
10:16
Speaker 1: the first time they had honed in on it.
10:20
Speaker 3: Yeah.
10:20
Speaker 4: Yeah.
10:20
Speaker 3: It was funny because a lot of people had commented
10:23
Speaker 3: to me about how, oh, I bet business is going
10:25
Speaker 3: to be good after this is over, and it was yeah,
10:30
Speaker 3: so yeah, yeah.
10:32
Speaker 1: And I think so I'm a big reality TV watcher,
10:37
Speaker 1: Guilty as charge, and I was talking with this friend about,
10:41
Speaker 1: you know, love is blind, and I go, I think
10:44
Speaker 1: one of the more interesting things that's coming out on
10:47
Speaker 1: Love is Blind is that men are sitting on one
10:50
Speaker 1: side of a partition talking to a woman that they
10:53
Speaker 1: cannot see, so they can't even like get a feel
10:57
Speaker 1: of like how she's dressed or what her culture or
11:00
Speaker 1: background might be. But they're saying things to these women like, oh,
11:04
Speaker 1: we don't need to get into politics or anything like that.
11:07
Speaker 1: That never matters when it comes to being in love.
11:10
Speaker 1: And I just like started screaming on TikTok or to
11:13
Speaker 1: anyone who would listen to me. I was like, white
11:17
Speaker 1: men get to say that politics don't matter and your
11:20
Speaker 1: like romantic relationships because it's never them being affected adversely
11:26
Speaker 1: by politics, like they always win. So that's a red flag.
11:31
Speaker 1: He's trying to avoid telling you that he doesn't believe
11:34
Speaker 1: that you should vote or something.
11:37
Speaker 3: I mean, it's deeper than that, but I mean, you're
11:40
Speaker 3: just saying that I don't care about your brains or
11:43
Speaker 3: your thoughts or your opinions. You're saying I just care
11:46
Speaker 3: about what you look like and that you are this
11:51
Speaker 3: you know, my little trophy or whatever, because otherwise, what
11:55
Speaker 3: wouldn't you want to know someone's opinions? And more importantly,
11:59
Speaker 3: like you want this relationship to last, you need to
12:02
Speaker 3: know whether you share fundamental values. I would this day
12:04
Speaker 3: and age put politics in the category of a fundamental value. Well,
12:08
Speaker 3: don't you think, don't you think like I mean, I'm
12:13
Speaker 3: not seeing like you know, like like a big time
12:16
Speaker 3: like maga guy, like being with some like ultraliberal like
12:23
Speaker 3: you know, socialists, it's just.
12:25
Speaker 4: Probably not happening. And if they make it.
12:27
Speaker 3: Work somehow, like I want to know what the secret
12:28
Speaker 3: sauce is, but I don't think that it's likely to
12:31
Speaker 3: work these days.
12:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was cute in the nineties when we
12:35
Speaker 1: were watching Dharma and Greg, which is one of my
12:37
Speaker 1: favorite sitcoms of yesteryear. But it's not so cute anymore.
12:42
Speaker 1: Suddenly all of that has gotten really really like just
12:48
Speaker 1: light years away from one another, that it's no longer
12:51
Speaker 1: a sitcom, it turns out, or maybe it never was.
12:55
Speaker 1: I feel like I give so much empathy now to
13:01
Speaker 1: women and people who are my parents' age or older,
13:05
Speaker 1: because I don't believe that they were given the tools
13:09
Speaker 1: to handle differences or even like think ahead to whether
13:15
Speaker 1: or not there would be differences. Like I know women
13:19
Speaker 1: who just secretly voted against their husbands and pretended to
13:24
Speaker 1: vote for whoever he voted for or whatever.
13:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I actually asked someone a
13:33
Speaker 3: couple of weeks ago. She feels very strongly in one
13:38
Speaker 3: political way and her husband feels very strongly in the
13:41
Speaker 3: other political way. And I think he was during this,
13:45
Speaker 3: not this last election, but in twenty twenty during that election,
13:50
Speaker 3: but he actually, in front of his entire family said
13:53
Speaker 3: to her, if you vote for that guy, I'm not
13:55
Speaker 3: gonna say who that guy was. There were two guys,
13:58
Speaker 3: but whoever that guy was, If you vote that guy,
14:01
Speaker 3: I'm divorcing it.
14:03
Speaker 4: And she did end up quoting for that guy, and.
14:08
Speaker 3: She didn't tell him, and I go, how do you
14:11
Speaker 3: live knowing that he feels so differently from I mean,
14:16
Speaker 3: like this is like not to the point of like, okay,
14:19
Speaker 3: well we just have to agree to disagree, but like
14:22
Speaker 3: it's so bad and so egrageous that he like actually
14:26
Speaker 3: threatened divorce, you know, like that he does not respect
14:29
Speaker 3: your opinion or your beliefs. And she goes, look, I'm
14:34
Speaker 3: not going to end my marriage over this. Whoever wins,
14:38
Speaker 3: there will be you know, they'll have their four years
14:40
Speaker 3: or eight years or whatever it is, and then they'll
14:42
Speaker 3: be gone, and there'll be someone else. And I understand
14:46
Speaker 3: that these are like very divisive players right now.
14:49
Speaker 4: And she's like it's.
14:50
Speaker 3: Not worth ending my marriage over and I'm like, wow,
14:52
Speaker 3: that's really amazing because I would not be able to
14:56
Speaker 3: get over the like resentment and like, oh so I'm
14:59
Speaker 3: gonna allowed to hold my own opinions, Like how dare you?
15:02
Speaker 3: You've always known my opinions and you don't get to
15:05
Speaker 3: tell me who I vote for and if you do, like,
15:11
Speaker 3: if I do get to vote for who I want
15:12
Speaker 3: to vote for, you don't get to tell me that
15:13
Speaker 3: you're going to divorce me if I do. Like that's
15:15
Speaker 3: I was like, wow, I wouldn't be able to get
15:18
Speaker 3: past that.
15:18
Speaker 1: Well. I also the red flag of the story is
15:23
Speaker 1: he not only like it's not like that was pillow
15:25
Speaker 1: talk before you fell asleep or whatever. It was like
15:28
Speaker 1: in front of his entire family. Yeah, you were a
15:30
Speaker 1: bunch of people. He was trying to shame you, Yeah,
15:33
Speaker 1: and manipulate you into just agreen with him. That's a
15:38
Speaker 1: red flag.
15:39
Speaker 3: And then she and then he asked her after the
15:43
Speaker 3: you know election was over and done with, you know,
15:46
Speaker 3: they went to the polls or whatever polling station and
15:48
Speaker 3: they past their votes and I think he might have
15:51
Speaker 3: actually they might have seen each other walking out and
15:54
Speaker 3: just you didn't vote for him, did you? And she
15:57
Speaker 3: said no, even though she did, so she had to lie.
16:02
Speaker 3: And then well there you go. That's you can't even
16:04
Speaker 3: have honesty and trust, and like, what else are you
16:07
Speaker 3: lying about?
16:08
Speaker 4: I mean, I to me, that was that.
16:10
Speaker 3: But she didn't manage over that, so I guess everything
16:13
Speaker 3: else is great.
16:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. I when when I was in my twenties and
16:19
Speaker 1: had a little less self respect for myself than I
16:22
Speaker 1: do today. In my mid thirties, I was in a
16:25
Speaker 1: relationship and it was with a man who was unable
16:30
Speaker 1: to drive due to medical reasons. And I picked him
16:34
Speaker 1: up from hanging out with his dad and he was intoxicated.
16:38
Speaker 1: And it's so funny how people become truth tellers when
16:43
Speaker 1: all of a sudden they're a little bit drunk and
16:46
Speaker 1: we're driving home or whatever, and he is complaining about
16:51
Speaker 1: his stepmother and how she doesn't know how to take
16:54
Speaker 1: care of his dad and she just goes out whenever
16:57
Speaker 1: she wants and sees her girlfriends, and she doesn't even
17:00
Speaker 1: consider what he'll have for dinner. This, that, and the other,
17:03
Speaker 1: and I was like, well, the pizza Hut app is
17:06
Speaker 1: on his phone too, and I'm like, you know, pushing
17:09
Speaker 1: him a little bit. I go, but the two of
17:11
Speaker 1: you were out tonight and your stepmom and I had
17:15
Speaker 1: to figure out the rest of our evening without you know,
17:20
Speaker 1: the two of you, because you were going out and
17:22
Speaker 1: it's like a Thursday, and all of a sudden, he
17:25
Speaker 1: has this epic meltdown where now he's yelling at me
17:30
Speaker 1: about like, well, you know, it's not always about you
17:35
Speaker 1: and her and being selfish and someone. I expect that
17:40
Speaker 1: when we're married, you're gonna care a little bit more
17:43
Speaker 1: about whether or not I'm taking care of. I was like,
17:46
Speaker 1: I can barely care, Like I have undiagnosed depression at
17:49
Speaker 1: this point, I can barely care if I'm taken care of.
17:54
Speaker 3: I mean when we get married, like yeah, okay, well bye.
18:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's time to plan my escape route. And I
18:08
Speaker 1: think that something that's linked to the fundamental values is
18:12
Speaker 1: also the fairy tale aspect that we get sold. So
18:16
Speaker 1: describe to me what you mean when you define the
18:19
Speaker 1: fairy tale.
18:20
Speaker 4: Nice segue there by the way, I thank you. Yeah, So,
18:24
Speaker 4: fairy tale is sort of this we have this.
18:27
Speaker 3: Overly idealized notion of what marriage looks like, what relationships
18:31
Speaker 3: look like in general, that we you know, and part
18:35
Speaker 3: of it I think is perpetuated. I don't want to
18:37
Speaker 3: blame Disney exclusively, but like, you know, part of it
18:40
Speaker 3: is like Okay, yeah, we grew up watching Cinderella or
18:42
Speaker 3: whatever it is. But I think a large part of
18:45
Speaker 3: it is perpetuated by social media. And like, I'm not
18:48
Speaker 3: going to say social media is the devil. There are
18:50
Speaker 3: a lot of good things about social media, but I
18:53
Speaker 3: would venture to say that the worst relationships are the
18:56
Speaker 3: ones we see the most of on social media, like
18:59
Speaker 3: painting the perfect, overly idyllic version of what it is, Like.
19:04
Speaker 4: I got my boyfriend got me flowers, and you got
19:08
Speaker 4: to post about it.
19:09
Speaker 3: Like if my husband brings me flowers, I don't have
19:11
Speaker 3: to post about it because I don't have to prove
19:13
Speaker 3: to anyone, just myself that we have a good relationship.
19:16
Speaker 3: You know, if we're out doing something, I'm enjoying the company,
19:22
Speaker 3: I don't need to post about it to show everyone
19:25
Speaker 3: that I. Look at me, I have a boyfriend, I
19:27
Speaker 3: have a husband, Like, look at me, my relationship is
19:29
Speaker 3: so great and I find that the people who like
19:31
Speaker 3: post about it the most, they tend to like overly
19:34
Speaker 3: idealize it, so people don't know how bad is or
19:36
Speaker 3: so they feel better about it. We think that our
19:39
Speaker 3: wedding day is that then we're working for it, and
19:41
Speaker 3: the problem is then we don't really Our selection process
19:46
Speaker 3: in a partner is about choosing anyone who will marry us,
19:49
Speaker 3: as opposed to picking the right person to marry. Because
19:53
Speaker 3: if our goal is to get married, then anyone who
19:57
Speaker 3: will propose to us.
19:58
Speaker 4: Will do, even if they're abusive or horrible.
20:01
Speaker 3: Right, But if the goal is to find the right
20:03
Speaker 3: life partner and to have a fulfilling and meaningful relationship,
20:07
Speaker 3: then that's what we're going to be looking for. We're
20:09
Speaker 3: not going to be like get me to the proposal,
20:12
Speaker 3: get me to and and you know, and a lot
20:14
Speaker 3: of it is like insecurity, and you can go into
20:17
Speaker 3: a deep dive into what is underlying it. But you know,
20:22
Speaker 3: people just have this like insatiable need to post their
20:25
Speaker 3: engagement or proposal photos or to even document that. Like
20:29
Speaker 3: back in the day, like nobody documented that. Now everyone
20:32
Speaker 3: seems to have like a camera set up to document
20:34
Speaker 3: the whole damn thing.
20:35
Speaker 4: Great, I'm glad you can preserve that memory on camera. Now,
20:40
Speaker 4: that's great, But it's like it's not important because this
20:45
Speaker 4: wedding day.
20:45
Speaker 3: This proposal, it's just like a little blip in your life,
20:48
Speaker 3: right the happily ever After in Cinderella or whatever fairy
20:52
Speaker 3: tale we're looking at, like these people are like in
20:55
Speaker 3: their twenties getting married and then they live into their
20:58
Speaker 3: eighties nineties, Like we're not getting a glimpse into what
21:01
Speaker 3: the reality of the next seventy to eighty years looks like.
21:04
Speaker 3: We're not getting any glimpse into like who these people are, like,
21:09
Speaker 3: what real people are like.
21:11
Speaker 4: And what their real struggles are and what.
21:12
Speaker 3: Their real lives are like because we're looking at royalty, like,
21:17
Speaker 3: you know, they don't have to worry about money, they
21:18
Speaker 3: don't have to worry about jobs. They probably have a
21:20
Speaker 3: staff on hand to take care of their children. Like
21:23
Speaker 3: they don't have to worry about stuff like we normal
21:26
Speaker 3: human beings do. So to just say like, okay, it's
21:30
Speaker 3: about getting to the wedding and then we lived happily
21:32
Speaker 3: ever after and this is all we're working toward, and
21:34
Speaker 3: this is the best day of my life. Then we
21:36
Speaker 3: set ourselves up for disappointment. It's not realistic.
21:39
Speaker 1: The way that the fairy tale always played in my
21:45
Speaker 1: dating history is that. And I think it doesn't make
21:52
Speaker 1: sense with the fairy tale, but it does. Is that
21:54
Speaker 1: a man would do something wretched to me, I would
21:58
Speaker 1: tell another trusted woman about it, and immediately, because marriage
22:03
Speaker 1: and the wedding in the big white dress is the goal,
22:06
Speaker 1: she would say, well, give him the benefit of the doubt.
22:10
Speaker 1: It's like only the eighteenth thing he's done that's been wretched.
22:15
Speaker 1: And I do believe that that's like a big way
22:17
Speaker 1: that misogyny tricks us into these false sense of securities
22:22
Speaker 1: of saying yes to the dress and walking down the
22:24
Speaker 1: aisle is because we're constantly taught to a second guess
22:30
Speaker 1: what we see right in front of us, because we
22:33
Speaker 1: have a goal in mind, and the goal Cinderella, Ariel Bell,
22:37
Speaker 1: any of them. They never ask those men a question
22:41
Speaker 1: on the like if you watch those movies, not a
22:43
Speaker 1: question is asked.
22:45
Speaker 4: I mean, Ariel can't even speak. Isn't that her appeal?
22:48
Speaker 1: Yeah? Exactly, she can't even speak.
22:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what makes her a perfect woman, right.
22:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, And and again like these men aren't asking any
22:58
Speaker 1: big hitters to the women that they're going to marry either.
23:02
Speaker 1: But I do think that that's so normalized to just
23:05
Speaker 1: like write it off as like a one off, even
23:07
Speaker 1: though when you know in your head that it's not
23:10
Speaker 1: a one off. But then we also have like all
23:13
Speaker 1: of this coded language around relationships about like, well, no
23:19
Speaker 1: one should be keeping score. Well I'm not keeping score.
23:22
Speaker 1: I'm noticing patterns.
23:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well you should be keeping score actually, because
23:28
Speaker 3: like I say in the book, I say that dating
23:31
Speaker 3: is a job interview. And although you know, we're not
23:34
Speaker 3: walking into our dates with the clipboard and a list
23:37
Speaker 3: of questions, we do need to be approaching it more
23:41
Speaker 3: critically and objectively and not like just relying on our
23:45
Speaker 3: little butterflies and our tummies and feeling like all fluttery
23:49
Speaker 3: and you know, the infatuation that magically wears off after
23:54
Speaker 3: you know, six to nine months in or whatever it is,
23:57
Speaker 3: maybe a year however long. But like we need to
24:00
Speaker 3: actually be asking questions like does this person share the
24:03
Speaker 3: same fundamental values as I do?
24:05
Speaker 4: Or are we aligned in our fundamental values?
24:07
Speaker 3: Do you want to navigate life in a similar way?
24:10
Speaker 3: Do we have similar goals? You know, do this person
24:15
Speaker 3: and I have a solid foundation. Is a relationship predicated
24:19
Speaker 3: on a solid foundation? You know, And and all of
24:23
Speaker 3: these things are far more important than the wedding day
24:28
Speaker 3: or the you know the fact that someone's looks so attractive,
24:32
Speaker 3: so hot, he's so good in bed, Like, yeah, that's
24:35
Speaker 3: most important, but it's not as important, like that's secondary.
24:41
Speaker 1: M What would you categorize is the most important thing
24:46
Speaker 1: to figure out during that date interview? If I did
24:50
Speaker 1: have a clipboard, and maybe I start bringing one.
24:53
Speaker 3: Maybe you should maybe should a little pencil behind me?
24:55
Speaker 3: Your real sexity look.
24:56
Speaker 1: A librarian type deal.
24:59
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's a kink for some people. I don't know.
25:03
Speaker 3: I think fundamental values is number one, because I think
25:06
Speaker 3: if people and I'm not just talking about politics, I
25:09
Speaker 3: mean I'm talking about like, fundamental values are not superficial
25:14
Speaker 3: in trusts, they're not superficial or fleeting things like you know,
25:19
Speaker 3: for example, somebody might love to travel in their twenties, right,
25:23
Speaker 3: and they might have this like wander lust. They want
25:25
Speaker 3: to sell off all their worldly possessions and travel the world,
25:27
Speaker 3: but ultimately they won't have children, Okay, and so that
25:32
Speaker 3: person probably their fundamental value is not like this wanderlust
25:37
Speaker 3: and travel. Right, for somebody who wants to sell off
25:40
Speaker 3: all their worthy possessions, never wants to have children, and
25:42
Speaker 3: wants to be a nomad for the rest of their life,
25:44
Speaker 3: that might be a fundamental value.
25:46
Speaker 4: But for this.
25:47
Speaker 3: Person who's just in their twenties and they're just like
25:49
Speaker 3: out there doing their thing, living their lives while they're young,
25:52
Speaker 3: but then they ultimately want to settle down.
25:54
Speaker 4: The fundamental value.
25:56
Speaker 3: That underlies that wander lust and rumber travels probably adventure.
26:00
Speaker 3: And you might seek adventure in other ways as you
26:03
Speaker 3: settle down and your children and get married and all
26:05
Speaker 3: these things, but that's a fundamental value.
26:08
Speaker 1: That's who you are.
26:09
Speaker 3: And if you are with somebody who is completely unadventurous,
26:13
Speaker 3: hates adventures, a homebody, you're not going to get them
26:16
Speaker 3: out of their comfort zone. Ever, you can to be
26:18
Speaker 3: resentful of that person, and that's just like one of
26:21
Speaker 3: many And the more fundamental values that you have, the better.
26:24
Speaker 3: You might not be able to ascertain someone's fundamental values
26:27
Speaker 3: on a first date, but you should be asking questions.
26:31
Speaker 3: And there's a little exercise that I give people in
26:33
Speaker 3: a book where I have them first, I give some
26:35
Speaker 3: exercises to help people define their fundamental values. And then
26:37
Speaker 3: there's an exercise where I have them list out like
26:40
Speaker 3: five fundamental values and list us some questions they could
26:43
Speaker 3: ask a potential date or potential suitor, to use the
26:48
Speaker 3: old parlance the potential suitor, you know, like what like
26:55
Speaker 3: questions that would help you ascertain whether this person shares
26:58
Speaker 3: with fundamental values. And it's not because you're gonna, like
27:00
Speaker 3: I said, go in with a list and a clipboard
27:03
Speaker 3: and ask all these questions. But at least you have
27:05
Speaker 3: them in the back of your mind, so while you're
27:07
Speaker 3: on the date, you don't have to like come up
27:08
Speaker 3: with something on the spot. You have like your go
27:10
Speaker 3: to questions that if the conversation comes up, if the
27:13
Speaker 3: topic comes up about like travel, like for instance, that
27:17
Speaker 3: that's something like your sense of adventure and be like, oh,
27:20
Speaker 3: I love to travel, Like somebody will say, oh, yeah,
27:22
Speaker 3: I just want to Alaska Lastima.
27:25
Speaker 4: Oh that's so cool.
27:26
Speaker 3: I've always wanted to go, Like have you traveled anywhere
27:29
Speaker 3: else recently? And kind of like feel it out right.
27:32
Speaker 3: That's what you should be honing in on, not like
27:34
Speaker 3: when someone says, oh, my favorite color is blue, and
27:36
Speaker 3: you'd be like oh, mine's red. Cool, because that's not
27:39
Speaker 3: fundamental value, right, Like that's not important. What you're wearing
27:44
Speaker 3: on your date isn't important the outfit you're wearing, like
27:47
Speaker 3: the questions you ask to establish whether or not this
27:51
Speaker 3: is something that even warrants a second date, a third date,
27:53
Speaker 3: like whether it warrants exploring or just like okay, cool.
27:57
Speaker 3: Even if you're a nice person, you're a hot person,
27:59
Speaker 3: you're a really fun person, you might have a great conversation,
28:04
Speaker 3: it might not mean it's the right person.
28:06
Speaker 4: And the longer you spend going out.
28:09
Speaker 3: With this person, the more invested your get in, the
28:12
Speaker 3: harder it will be to break.
28:13
Speaker 1: It off because of those sunk cost fallacy, which kind
28:18
Speaker 1: of starts immediately For me, I don't know what that.
28:21
Speaker 1: I think it's because I'm a Capricorn. Something that wired
28:24
Speaker 1: in my brain where it's like, well, if you did
28:26
Speaker 1: it once, you can do it again, And it's like
28:30
Speaker 1: I've already invested fifteen minutes. I might like, it's like
28:34
Speaker 1: I already did my hair, so I might as well
28:36
Speaker 1: sit for dinner at with this person for an hour,
28:41
Speaker 1: even though ten minutes in I was already like, oh.
28:45
Speaker 3: Okay, but that's fine, but if you are like, uh,
28:49
Speaker 3: I don't know ten minutes in, and then you end
28:52
Speaker 3: up going on another date and another, and you're trying
28:54
Speaker 3: to talk yourself into it because you're either too afraid
28:57
Speaker 3: to be single, or you're afraid you're not going to
28:59
Speaker 3: find someone better, or you don't value yourself enough to
29:02
Speaker 3: like go out there and think that you'll find someone better,
29:05
Speaker 3: or that you deserve someone better, not better.
29:08
Speaker 4: It might be a great person, but better suited for you.
29:12
Speaker 3: And this is the mistake a lot of people make
29:14
Speaker 3: because fear starts taking over wanst words, dinging, ding, here
29:17
Speaker 3: it comes and you know, And so people do that.
29:21
Speaker 4: They do that, they hang on to the one good
29:24
Speaker 4: thing or the two good things, and they talk themselves
29:27
Speaker 4: into it because the alternatives to go back out there
29:29
Speaker 4: into that horrible dating world, back on the dating apps
29:32
Speaker 4: to be single again. It sucks.
29:35
Speaker 1: Do you think that dating apps? So I find dating
29:39
Speaker 1: to be extremely hard nowadays because of the dating apps.
29:42
Speaker 1: And I feel like everyone just treats everyone else like
29:45
Speaker 1: a product that they can get online. Like It's like
29:49
Speaker 1: it feels too much like shopping and putting people in
29:52
Speaker 1: a cart when you're swiping. Uh, do you think that
29:56
Speaker 1: dating apps help people get a better sense of who
30:00
Speaker 1: they're going on a date with because of all of
30:02
Speaker 1: the questions you have to fill out for a profile.
30:07
Speaker 4: I have really mixed feelings about dating apples. I think that.
30:13
Speaker 3: They can be good because they expose you, obviously to
30:17
Speaker 3: a lot more people than you might otherwise encounter, and
30:21
Speaker 3: so you have a lot more options, and you can
30:25
Speaker 3: try a lot more people out, and maybe you know
30:28
Speaker 3: one one will fit, I guess. But then the other
30:33
Speaker 3: problem with dating apps, I think the biggest issue I
30:35
Speaker 3: have with them is that we're not matching based on
30:40
Speaker 3: the criteria that we need to match with because ultimately,
30:45
Speaker 3: no matter what you input in there about your bio
30:48
Speaker 3: or your interests or about yourself, and no matter what
30:51
Speaker 3: they say they're matching you with people who are similar,
30:55
Speaker 3: you're ultimately swiping based on books and you know, and
30:59
Speaker 3: so we're not really ascertaining from the swipe process whether
31:03
Speaker 3: someone shares our fundamental values or were aligned in the
31:07
Speaker 3: way that we want to navigate life. And I've seen
31:10
Speaker 3: dating out success stories, you know, so I think that
31:14
Speaker 3: they are great. You just have to sift through a
31:17
Speaker 3: lot of people before you find the right one. But ultimately,
31:21
Speaker 3: I do think that what comes with that as a burnout,
31:25
Speaker 3: and that it's kind of like, you know, back in
31:29
Speaker 3: my day.
31:30
Speaker 4: I'm really old.
31:32
Speaker 3: Back in my day, we used to have cassette tapes
31:35
Speaker 3: and radio and then CDs, and you know, the bottom
31:39
Speaker 3: line is you couldn't just listen to any song you
31:41
Speaker 3: wanted unless you heard it on.
31:43
Speaker 4: The radio or you had it on a CD, or
31:46
Speaker 4: you heard on the.
31:46
Speaker 3: Radio and you stuck your cassette tape in the in
31:48
Speaker 3: the you know, in the radio the boombox, like right
31:52
Speaker 3: as that song came on and you hit record. That
31:54
Speaker 3: was like how you would get access to your favorite song.
31:57
Speaker 3: And nowadays, if you have every song, they'll water fingertips.
32:00
Speaker 3: And I remember back when I had CDs and things
32:03
Speaker 3: like that, I was like, oh, I really want to
32:05
Speaker 3: listen to this Today, like I could whip out a
32:09
Speaker 3: CD and put it in and listen to it. Now
32:12
Speaker 3: that I have any song I want to listen to
32:14
Speaker 3: available at my fingertips, I never know what to listen to.
32:17
Speaker 3: And I feel like dating apps are very similar in
32:19
Speaker 3: that way.
32:20
Speaker 1: No, I I agree, There's I haven't watched it yet,
32:24
Speaker 1: but I love a Hulu production there's a new Hulu
32:27
Speaker 1: movie and it has a blonde actress in it, and
32:30
Speaker 1: my brain is going Elizabeth Banks. But it's not Elizabeth Banks.
32:34
Speaker 1: She was in the Skincare movie.
32:36
Speaker 4: But yeah, I remember that one that was that was
32:39
Speaker 4: good one. Yeah, oh oh yeah. It's dark there.
32:44
Speaker 1: But it's a biopic about the woman who really should
32:49
Speaker 1: have gotten the credit for creating Tinder and then she
32:53
Speaker 1: eventually moved on to bumble and I think it's called
32:56
Speaker 1: Swiped or something, and I can't wait to watch it
33:02
Speaker 1: to see if I get like a more in depth
33:05
Speaker 1: hatred for dating apps because it'll get me the behind
33:08
Speaker 1: the scenes of what they were really doing, because I
33:12
Speaker 1: think like the key to dating apps is and it
33:14
Speaker 1: also Match dot Com because I was also on Match
33:17
Speaker 1: dot com before we had apps on our phone. They
33:21
Speaker 1: keep you in a scarcity mindset. They're not paying to
33:25
Speaker 1: get people married because then you stop paying for your subscription,
33:30
Speaker 1: you stop scrolling, swiping whatever, and then they lose ad revenue.
33:36
Speaker 1: And I think that it does kick in like a
33:40
Speaker 1: fight or flight sensation when I'm on the dating apps,
33:43
Speaker 1: because number one, I have to get over all of
33:46
Speaker 1: my insecurities. So when I was hoping to date men,
33:52
Speaker 1: I would be like, well, I'm a plus size girlie,
33:56
Speaker 1: Like that's already a con on all of my swipes,
34:00
Speaker 1: and so I have to be realistic about what kindomona
34:03
Speaker 1: are going to be attracted to me. And it's a
34:05
Speaker 1: lot of mental emotional like work before you even are
34:09
Speaker 1: looking at a profile.
34:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and I think that that's really
34:14
Speaker 3: interesting that you say that, because the one thing I
34:16
Speaker 3: always tell people is to value themselves and to know
34:19
Speaker 3: their self worth, because otherwise we end up settling. And
34:22
Speaker 3: I think that even and I see, like, for instance,
34:26
Speaker 3: like my brother when he was on dating apps and
34:29
Speaker 3: he was doing this, it's like he was saying, oh,
34:31
Speaker 3: I'm not tall enough. All those girls are just going
34:33
Speaker 3: to scroll past me because they want someone taller.
34:35
Speaker 4: And he's like very.
34:36
Speaker 3: Good looking, extremely successful, like a catch by any means.
34:39
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that this is my brother, like this
34:41
Speaker 3: is this is like for reals, so you know. So
34:45
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's so crazy that it forces you to
34:49
Speaker 3: like assess yourself and analyze your perceived quote unquote flaws
34:56
Speaker 3: and then say, oh, but nobody is going to go
34:59
Speaker 3: for that because we do understand that it is based
35:04
Speaker 3: on like superficiality and appearance when you could just like
35:09
Speaker 3: slipe when you have so many options at your fingertips,
35:11
Speaker 3: as opposed to like something deeper.
35:14
Speaker 4: Because I think if.
35:15
Speaker 3: You share fundamental values and you share a solid foundation
35:18
Speaker 3: in your relationship and you have all of these wonderful
35:21
Speaker 3: things that you connect on that the actual the attraction.
35:26
Speaker 4: Growth with those things.
35:29
Speaker 3: Because you could be physically very attracted to someone, they
35:32
Speaker 3: could be a horrible person and then you're not attracted
35:34
Speaker 3: to them anymore.
35:36
Speaker 4: And I think that the flip side of that is
35:38
Speaker 4: true as well.
35:39
Speaker 3: But we you know, the dating apps they take that
35:41
Speaker 3: out of the process and they force us to like really.
35:46
Speaker 4: Kind of think like we're to diminish our values.
35:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, and I when it comes to oh
35:57
Speaker 1: I had something, I'm sorry, No, I don't know how
36:03
Speaker 1: to segue to it is a problem when it came
36:05
Speaker 1: to dating apps, A lot of the mental work that
36:08
Speaker 1: I was doing was it did make me more analytical
36:11
Speaker 1: about who I wanted to date, which I don't even
36:14
Speaker 1: know if that's a good thing or not, but you know,
36:16
Speaker 1: I was collecting data. But also because you had like
36:20
Speaker 1: almost a wrap sheet, like a cheat sheet in front
36:23
Speaker 1: of you, of who this person was. Because of my insecurities,
36:27
Speaker 1: I would make concessions and be like, well, you know,
36:34
Speaker 1: maybe a conservative will be able to take me to
36:38
Speaker 1: a nice restaurants I don't know, and you know, and
36:41
Speaker 1: you just turn like.
36:42
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, you can become the thing.
36:44
Speaker 3: You can mold yourself to the thing that this person
36:47
Speaker 3: wants you to be, because.
36:48
Speaker 4: You already know what they like and where they are.
36:51
Speaker 3: And you know, one thing that I talk about a
36:53
Speaker 3: lot in terms of relationships is like, if you're looking
36:57
Speaker 3: for something long term, like if you're looking for a
36:59
Speaker 3: casual that that's fine. You can let a conservative conservative
37:03
Speaker 3: guy take you in to a nice you know, it's
37:04
Speaker 3: fine about this is not your thing and that's not
37:07
Speaker 3: what you're looking for long term. But I think where
37:12
Speaker 3: we make a huge mistake is that we are so
37:14
Speaker 3: insecure and we don't value ourselves enough and we don't
37:17
Speaker 3: think highly enough of ourselves that we pretend to be
37:20
Speaker 3: the best version of ourselves when we go on dates.
37:22
Speaker 3: From the outfit we wear, to the personality we present,
37:28
Speaker 3: to the things we say and don't say, to the
37:30
Speaker 3: filters that we put on what we say and how
37:34
Speaker 3: we say them.
37:35
Speaker 4: And I think that.
37:38
Speaker 3: We're kind of presenting this like overly idealized version of
37:43
Speaker 3: ourselves that isn't authentic, and we want we do this
37:48
Speaker 3: because we don't think the person is going to like
37:50
Speaker 3: the authentic version of ourselves. We think that they're only
37:53
Speaker 3: going to like this idealized version of this. But if
37:56
Speaker 3: we get into a relationship and it goes somewhere and things,
37:59
Speaker 3: you know, start to move in the direction of a
38:02
Speaker 3: serious relationship, you're gonna eventually get comfortable. You're gonna let
38:05
Speaker 3: your guard down. They're gonna see who you really are.
38:07
Speaker 3: If they don't like you for who you are and
38:09
Speaker 3: accept you for who you are, it's not the right person. So,
38:12
Speaker 3: like my advice to people is always like on the
38:15
Speaker 3: first date, be who you are, Like, don't apologize for
38:19
Speaker 3: who you are. If they don't like you, it's so
38:22
Speaker 3: much better for you and for them to know that now,
38:25
Speaker 3: because it's not like a rejection of.
38:27
Speaker 4: Who you are. It just means it's not the right
38:29
Speaker 4: person for you.
38:30
Speaker 3: And I think that's the disconnect is like people see
38:33
Speaker 3: it as like a rejection of who I am. Like
38:37
Speaker 3: when someone doesn't want to go on a second date
38:38
Speaker 3: or they go to they don't call you back, And
38:40
Speaker 3: it's not. It just means that's not the right person
38:43
Speaker 3: for you and you're not the right person for them.
38:46
Speaker 3: And that doesn't mean you're bad or there's something wrong
38:48
Speaker 3: with you, but people take it as that. They take
38:51
Speaker 3: the rejection. It's like, well, if I was better or
38:53
Speaker 3: if I was better looking, or if I was this
38:56
Speaker 3: or that, then I wouldn't have been rejected. They would
38:58
Speaker 3: have wanted to continue to go out with me. It's like,
39:01
Speaker 3: but would you want to continue to go out with
39:03
Speaker 3: them if you're not the right person for them and
39:06
Speaker 3: they're not obviously the right person for you? And like,
39:09
Speaker 3: I had to grapple without myself many times because it's
39:12
Speaker 3: hard not to view it as like a rejection of you.
39:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I so one of my rejection sensitivities is
39:21
Speaker 1: that I always feel like and it goes along with
39:24
Speaker 1: the fairy tale, where it's the fantasy that they themselves
39:28
Speaker 1: come to the date with. And I'm still trying to,
39:31
Speaker 1: like rapple how to even get this point across to people.
39:35
Speaker 1: I try to I'm in a screenwriting class and I
39:38
Speaker 1: just wrote a scene about it, and then till my
39:40
Speaker 1: entire class don't read it, it's not good. I just
39:43
Speaker 1: turned it in because there was a deadline. But it's
39:45
Speaker 1: this whole idea of before a person even sits down
39:50
Speaker 1: at the coffee date, our like natural human nature is
39:55
Speaker 1: to already kind of build up who that persons sitting
39:59
Speaker 1: in from us is going to be. And I felt
40:03
Speaker 1: myself while I'm dating battling the fantasy that you're trying
40:08
Speaker 1: to project onto me because you're assuming that you're going
40:13
Speaker 1: to get have like a perfect experience or something. And
40:16
Speaker 1: then the moment that I'm like a person with my
40:19
Speaker 1: own thoughts and opinions, You're like, WHOA, I don't even
40:24
Speaker 1: know you.
40:26
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had. I mean I remember the dating after
40:31
Speaker 4: my divorce.
40:33
Speaker 3: I remember I was in several relationships, and I remember
40:37
Speaker 3: trying to be like the perfect ideal woman, not because
40:44
Speaker 3: they were imposing that on me, but because I felt like,
40:49
Speaker 3: oh well, maybe that was the reason that.
40:53
Speaker 4: And my ending my.
40:55
Speaker 3: Marriage was sort of like a mutual decision, like I
40:58
Speaker 3: initiated it, but it was sort of like a mutual decision.
41:01
Speaker 3: So it's not like my husband said I'm leaving you
41:02
Speaker 3: or anything like that. But I still took it as
41:06
Speaker 3: a rejection in a way. That like, oh well, when
41:09
Speaker 3: I say, like things aren't working out or the reason
41:11
Speaker 3: that they weren't working out or whatever, it was like
41:13
Speaker 3: that like I wasn't good enough or enough for him
41:17
Speaker 3: to want to hold onto, you know, like and that
41:19
Speaker 3: wasn't that was far from the truth, but that's the
41:23
Speaker 3: narrative I had bepocked it in my mind. So then
41:25
Speaker 3: when I went on to date, because I had this
41:27
Speaker 3: prior in my mind, this perceived rejection, I had to
41:32
Speaker 3: be so perfect or what I thought was perfect in
41:35
Speaker 3: these relationships because then I wouldn't be rejected. And I
41:39
Speaker 3: realized that, like what I was doing was totally unsustainable
41:42
Speaker 3: because I was trying to be this like really like ideal,
41:46
Speaker 3: picture perfect girlfriend so that I wouldn't be rejected, and
41:53
Speaker 3: it wasn't who I was. It wasn't like my authentic self.
41:55
Speaker 3: And by the time I got to my current husband,
41:58
Speaker 3: I remember being so ridicul on our first date because
42:01
Speaker 3: I was just like I don't care, like you're getting me,
42:05
Speaker 3: You're getting unfiltered me, and like to the point where
42:08
Speaker 3: like I was drinking, we were drinking, we were having fun.
42:12
Speaker 3: I think it was our second date. I'm going to
42:14
Speaker 3: a hockey game, and so we had been drinking. We
42:17
Speaker 3: went to a bar after we got some more drinks,
42:19
Speaker 3: you know, Like so I was a little I was
42:20
Speaker 3: a little a little toxicated, just a little. And I
42:25
Speaker 3: remember we were waiting for the train to take back
42:29
Speaker 3: and I like remember, I like decided I was just
42:31
Speaker 3: going to do a handstand in the middle of the
42:34
Speaker 3: train station because I I'm like a yoga teacher. So
42:37
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah, look at me, I'm just
42:38
Speaker 3: going to do a handstand and I fell over. My
42:42
Speaker 3: husband still doesn't remember the story because I reminded him
42:45
Speaker 3: about it, and I'm like, oh, thank god, you don't remember.
42:47
Speaker 4: But I didn't care. I was just like whatever, I
42:51
Speaker 4: want to be silly.
42:51
Speaker 3: I don't like, I'm not trying to impress him, like
42:53
Speaker 3: if he doesn't like who I am, like, you know,
42:56
Speaker 3: onto the next So yeah, I got to that point
42:59
Speaker 3: where I didn't care, and I like it was very
43:01
Speaker 3: liberating to just be like, I don't care if you
43:05
Speaker 3: don't like me, I'm not you know, I'll just move
43:07
Speaker 3: on to the next day.
43:08
Speaker 4: So I just like having gone.
43:11
Speaker 3: From that like you need to be a perfect, perfect
43:14
Speaker 3: person that was not sustainable versus like this is who
43:17
Speaker 3: I am and I'm completely unapologetic about it. I just
43:21
Speaker 3: like encourage people to find that because it's so liberating
43:25
Speaker 3: to just just be who you are and like be
43:27
Speaker 3: silly and be funny and like just be authentic.
43:31
Speaker 1: Well, and honestly, it was a good data point for
43:34
Speaker 1: you because then you got to watch how he would
43:36
Speaker 1: react to you needing care. Yeah, all I can imagine
43:41
Speaker 1: is you doing a handstand and then completely I've seen
43:45
Speaker 1: this happen where I've been sitting at a winery and
43:48
Speaker 1: I've watched sorority sisters decide that they're going to do
43:50
Speaker 1: like a stunt from bring it On, and I'm not
43:54
Speaker 1: listening to anything my friends are saying. And finally they're like, Manley,
43:57
Speaker 1: what's going on? And I'm like, well, I'm watching these
44:00
Speaker 1: in because they're gonna fall. Yeah, really kind of want
44:04
Speaker 1: to see it.
44:05
Speaker 4: Luckily, I did not hurt myself, but it was like,
44:09
Speaker 4: but my.
44:10
Speaker 3: Ees a little bruise because I was a little bit
44:12
Speaker 3: embarrassed even though I didn't care.
44:13
Speaker 4: But I was like, oh my.
44:14
Speaker 3: God, how Like Okay, I know you don't care anymore, Sarah,
44:17
Speaker 3: Like I know you are just being who you are,
44:20
Speaker 3: but like this is a little extreme. This is a
44:23
Speaker 3: little much like if this guy sticks around, like wow, Okay,
44:26
Speaker 3: I will.
44:27
Speaker 1: Say that hockey is I famously do not sport, but
44:32
Speaker 1: hockey is one that I can get into. I don't
44:34
Speaker 1: know why. I think it's because it's so violent but accepted,
44:38
Speaker 1: like totally, and it does. I remember I become like
44:42
Speaker 1: a monster when I'm watching hockey live. So I bet
44:45
Speaker 1: you it was just a lot of the hockey adrenaline.
44:48
Speaker 1: Because one time I was just like screaming, spill his
44:52
Speaker 1: blood or something at a hockey match and my friend
44:55
Speaker 1: was like, hey, Nat, like you want to process that
44:59
Speaker 1: and time, and I was like, I just love hockey.
45:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, it brings up I mean, it brings out the
45:04
Speaker 3: best in people. I really think. But yeah, I mean
45:09
Speaker 3: it was maybe it was the hockey, but maybe it
45:11
Speaker 3: was the vodka.
45:12
Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying.
45:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I love that because I do think that
45:18
Speaker 1: one of the things that as I move into maybe
45:22
Speaker 1: if I ever date again, I don't know, I could
45:24
Speaker 1: be raptured today. Maybe I'm just a late comer to
45:26
Speaker 1: the rapture. Please take me, Please take me. I don't
45:30
Speaker 1: want to work. But I think that as I moved
45:34
Speaker 1: for forward into dating, especially now that I've kind of
45:40
Speaker 1: explored what it would mean if I actually embraced a
45:44
Speaker 1: little bit more of my queer thoughts and actually dated women.
45:49
Speaker 1: Uh is when people ask me what I'm the most
45:52
Speaker 1: afraid of, when it comes to that, I always go,
45:55
Speaker 1: I've never dated authentically, Like I feel like I'm just
45:58
Speaker 1: like a compile of bits, like I'm just a walking
46:02
Speaker 1: bit and I've never done it authentically because I was
46:08
Speaker 1: always trying to fit myself into like the heteronormative Midwest
46:12
Speaker 1: role of girlfriend and future wife and things like that,
46:18
Speaker 1: And I've never put myself in my hopes and dreams
46:25
Speaker 1: and wishes like into the mix at all when I
46:29
Speaker 1: was having a relationship because it was just so nice
46:32
Speaker 1: to have someone want to be around me, I guess,
46:37
Speaker 1: and I it's the authentic and the sincerity part that
46:42
Speaker 1: I'm convinced. I don't know. I think I have like
46:45
Speaker 1: a personality thing where it's like, well, I really am
46:48
Speaker 1: not good at not being myself. But also I also
46:52
Speaker 1: feel like I'm never doing anything authentically.
46:55
Speaker 4: Except for watching hockey.
46:56
Speaker 1: Except for watching hockey when I'm my truest self, yes,
47:00
Speaker 1: and probably professional wrestling it does combine a lot of
47:03
Speaker 1: my niche interest like yeah, soap opera, jama their costumes.
47:09
Speaker 3: Violence, Yeah, I think you need to lean into this,
47:13
Speaker 3: like violence and bloodlust. I think that's really what we're
47:18
Speaker 3: we're getting to today. I think that's where we Yeah.
47:22
Speaker 1: I have had to break it to a lot of
47:23
Speaker 1: people that I don't have any tattoos currently, but I
47:27
Speaker 1: have a lot planned. And I think the first one
47:30
Speaker 1: that I'm going to get is my poison bottle because
47:35
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just really think we should bring
47:36
Speaker 1: it back. It was so sexy when that was like
47:39
Speaker 1: the way that we were taking care of its I
47:42
Speaker 1: find it the sexiest conflict resolution. Yeah, And people are like,
47:47
Speaker 1: and my sister keeps asking me, like, where are you
47:49
Speaker 1: going to put it? I go, I think I'm going
47:50
Speaker 1: to make sure that it's pretty visible on my arm,
47:53
Speaker 1: my forearm, like when I'm writing and when I'm out
47:57
Speaker 1: about in the world. And she goes yeah, and I go, yeah.
48:00
Speaker 1: I go because number one, if I'm paying so much
48:02
Speaker 1: for something, I want to see it every day and
48:04
Speaker 1: I want it to be visible. And also I want
48:08
Speaker 1: people to know that I'm a threat. I go, it's
48:11
Speaker 1: somehow part of my feminism.
48:12
Speaker 5: I don't know, So might I recommend like on your cheek,
48:16
Speaker 5: like on the side of your cheek so it looks
48:18
Speaker 5: like it's like dripping into your mouth, and like nothing
48:21
Speaker 5: makes a statement like a face.
48:23
Speaker 4: Past, So maybe I actually love that, all right? And
48:27
Speaker 4: then and then spill blood across your chest.
48:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I do have one question before we wrap up, Yes,
48:36
Speaker 1: what is your ultimate? Like you would tell any person
48:40
Speaker 1: ever this on a date, that this is not a
48:42
Speaker 1: red flag that you should ignore because that will make
48:45
Speaker 1: your life hell later.
48:47
Speaker 3: No, that's a really good question, and I think it
48:49
Speaker 3: might be different for everyone.
48:52
Speaker 4: But I think something that we kind of do as people.
49:05
Speaker 3: I think it's more like something we do as opposed
49:07
Speaker 3: to something someone else does. If we're talking like across
49:09
Speaker 3: the board, is that we will hear what someone says
49:15
Speaker 3: and we then don't listen to it. We don't take
49:18
Speaker 3: their word at face value. We like read meaning into.
49:22
Speaker 4: It and like, but they don't actually mean that.
49:24
Speaker 3: They must mean something else because we don't want to
49:27
Speaker 3: actually take it at face value.
49:28
Speaker 4: If we do, we have to run.
49:30
Speaker 3: And so I think that like for us, that's almost
49:33
Speaker 3: like our own sort of red flag filtration. System is
49:36
Speaker 3: like listen to what people are saying and take their
49:41
Speaker 3: word at face value.
49:42
Speaker 1: I one time, so I did do a fake version
49:45
Speaker 1: of Love's Blind over Zoom during the lock in. It
49:48
Speaker 1: was all just like fake names and cameras turned off,
49:53
Speaker 1: and I ended up dating a guy from the show.
49:57
Speaker 1: And it was supposed to be a show. I called
49:59
Speaker 1: it a show. It actually got aired, it didn't get aired.
50:02
Speaker 1: It is one of my greatest missed opportunities. I could
50:07
Speaker 1: have been on real Love is Blind if this mini
50:09
Speaker 1: series had ever taken off. I'm convinced, but I remember
50:15
Speaker 1: I was what I would consider my most authentic self
50:19
Speaker 1: because no one's looking at you. You're talking to a
50:22
Speaker 1: black screen. It's amazing what you'll say. And I talked
50:24
Speaker 1: about all how much I love like haunted houses and
50:27
Speaker 1: I see ghosts and my Grandma haunts me. And I
50:30
Speaker 1: talked to the animals at the zoo and now all
50:32
Speaker 1: of the animals at the Columbus Zoo know me by
50:35
Speaker 1: voice and they come up to the enclosure to see
50:38
Speaker 1: me when I arrived because they're happy and just all
50:41
Speaker 1: of it. And I'm on not the first date with
50:46
Speaker 1: this guy, and he brings up something of like core
50:50
Speaker 1: to my personality, and we'll just say it's my love
50:53
Speaker 1: of Stevie Nicks. And he brings it up in like
50:56
Speaker 1: a very sarcastic mean way, and I looked at him
51:00
Speaker 1: and I went, no, Stevie Nicks or whatever it was,
51:04
Speaker 1: is actually important to me. Like I said that, because
51:09
Speaker 1: that's what we were doing. We were talking back and forth,
51:12
Speaker 1: and he said, no, I thought you were kidding. He goes,
51:15
Speaker 1: I thought like eighty five percent of things were things
51:18
Speaker 1: that you were just kidding about. He goes, you really
51:21
Speaker 1: think that you see ghosts? I go, well, number one,
51:24
Speaker 1: you don't really see ghosts. That's not really how mediumship works.
51:27
Speaker 1: It's more of like a presence. I go. But yeah,
51:30
Speaker 1: I go, my grandma comes to visit, and I know
51:32
Speaker 1: that she's come to visit me beyond the veil because
51:35
Speaker 1: I smell her cigarette smoke, even though I don't smoke
51:38
Speaker 1: and no one smokes in my house, like and he
51:42
Speaker 1: was just like I truly, and I was like, why,
51:45
Speaker 1: of all of the things I could lie about, I
51:47
Speaker 1: would lie about my dead grandma coming to visit me.
51:49
Speaker 4: That seems rude, yeah, very rude.
51:53
Speaker 1: But yeah, I do think that listening is something that
51:56
Speaker 1: across the board everyone could learn to do better. I
52:01
Speaker 1: just had the smeltdown because I felt like I was
52:07
Speaker 1: screaming for emotional attention at a lot of different people.
52:12
Speaker 1: I was like, Hey, it's my PMDD week and it's
52:16
Speaker 1: all bad in my head. And then people would hear
52:19
Speaker 1: all of the badness that was happening in my head.
52:21
Speaker 1: And when I know, I'll tell Namby about my day.
52:24
Speaker 1: We're catching up, and I'm like, uhh, I needed you
52:28
Speaker 1: to address some of the things that I said during
52:31
Speaker 1: my bad time. And I eventually just told my best friend.
52:34
Speaker 1: I was like, you're not allowed to go out of
52:35
Speaker 1: town anymore on business because you're the only person who
52:40
Speaker 1: will listen to my ramblings and be like, so, what
52:43
Speaker 1: I'm hearing is you're hungry and everyone is annoying you
52:48
Speaker 1: because you're hungry. Go have a snack or go to bed.
52:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, people, y'all listen. We gotta hear.
52:58
Speaker 3: That's a communication is about marriages and relationships end because
53:01
Speaker 3: it's poor communication. It's not just about listening, about hearing
53:05
Speaker 3: and implementing too.
53:07
Speaker 1: And I've heard that this is also just a different
53:09
Speaker 1: way that people who might have cognitive things going on
53:12
Speaker 1: like ADHD or follow somewhere on a spectrum or anything
53:16
Speaker 1: that their brains operate. But my sister accuses me of
53:19
Speaker 1: this a lot, where it's like I'm listening, but I
53:22
Speaker 1: also have like a story on deck to connect to
53:26
Speaker 1: the theme that we're talking about, And so she'll be like,
53:30
Speaker 1: I'll just be talking and then you'll be like, oh, yeah,
53:33
Speaker 1: like that time our uncle did da da da da,
53:37
Speaker 1: And it's like, did you even hear my story? And
53:39
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, yeah, because I offered an empathetic follow life,
53:44
Speaker 1: That's how I did it. I go, did you just
53:45
Speaker 1: want me to ask you more questions about the story?
53:48
Speaker 1: I comprehended, and yeah, honestly sometimes she does.
53:54
Speaker 4: Yeah.
53:54
Speaker 3: I mean people have different communication styles and like you
53:57
Speaker 3: should communicate in a relationship, like that's an important thing
54:01
Speaker 3: you need to, yeah, to make sure your communication styles
54:05
Speaker 3: match up in a line.
54:06
Speaker 1: And I know we don't really believe in the love
54:08
Speaker 1: languages anymore. I think we found out that that scientist
54:11
Speaker 1: man was a bad man. I don't even I don't know.
54:15
Speaker 3: I think it's still there's some legitimacy to it. I
54:18
Speaker 3: just think it's it's very limited and very narrow yeah. Like,
54:23
Speaker 3: I don't think it's the solution for everything that's going
54:27
Speaker 3: to feel a relationship.
54:28
Speaker 4: I think it's just one small component of many.
54:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, correct, And I think at the end of
54:34
Speaker 1: the day, they're all the same love language. And it's
54:37
Speaker 1: like have you seen me and noticed what I care about?
54:41
Speaker 1: Like it's all just about that, like subtle understanding that
54:44
Speaker 1: your partner is supposed to have about you.
54:48
Speaker 3: I mean just like basic basic stuff, like basic stuff,
54:53
Speaker 3: basic stuff.
54:54
Speaker 1: Have you noticed that I'm allergic to shellfish? Like do
54:57
Speaker 1: you know where my EpiPen is? I'm just ask him
55:00
Speaker 1: for bare minimum stuff here, Sarah, this has been lovely.
55:05
Speaker 1: I didn't say it while you were walking through some
55:07
Speaker 1: of the exercises, but I do really appreciate when books
55:11
Speaker 1: like this have written exercises that people can do, because
55:15
Speaker 1: it is one of the best ways to rewire your
55:18
Speaker 1: brain and actually make forward movement in the ways that
55:22
Speaker 1: you want to heal and start thinking. So that's very cool.
55:27
Speaker 4: Thank you.
55:28
Speaker 1: You're welcome. We have a nice little closing out ceremony
55:31
Speaker 1: that we do onto all the men I've tolerated before,
55:34
Speaker 1: where we offer up a final lesson and then a
55:39
Speaker 1: manifestation that we hope to put out into the energy
55:43
Speaker 1: and hopefully the other tolerators take it to heart and
55:46
Speaker 1: carry that manifestation with them so it actually happens for us.
55:50
Speaker 1: But in all of your experience, your own divorce, being
55:54
Speaker 1: a divorce attorney writing the book, what do you think
55:58
Speaker 1: is the lesson that you imparted to people the most
56:01
Speaker 1: or would like to impart to people the most?
56:04
Speaker 3: Just know your worth and value yourself and demand the
56:10
Speaker 3: best for yourself rather than settling.
56:13
Speaker 1: And there it is. We talk a lot about self
56:15
Speaker 1: value on this podcast, where it's like, hey, did you
56:18
Speaker 1: hug yourself today? Did you say a nice thing to
56:22
Speaker 1: yourself once today? And then what's a manifestation that you
56:26
Speaker 1: would like to offer up to the general energy collective?
56:32
Speaker 4: Man, everyone just chill out, And.
56:37
Speaker 3: You know, like, I think people are so hung up
56:41
Speaker 3: on their dogma that in general relationships or otherwise that
56:48
Speaker 3: we don't stop to like at least understand the other side.
56:53
Speaker 3: And this is again in a relationship, like in a partnership,
56:55
Speaker 3: it's like we're so hung up in our own.
56:57
Speaker 4: Stuff and our own crap that we're not.
56:59
Speaker 3: Like really having empathy and compassion for what somebody else
57:03
Speaker 3: is feeling or thinking. And I think that when we
57:07
Speaker 3: whether we agree or we disagree.
57:09
Speaker 4: With someone else, if we can have some compassion.
57:11
Speaker 3: And understanding for where they're coming from, whether or not
57:15
Speaker 3: we agree or like what they're saying, then you know,
57:20
Speaker 3: we can maybe find some community and and love for
57:26
Speaker 3: each other and some peace and humanity.
57:29
Speaker 1: So I guess, like, yeah, I try to pick one
57:35
Speaker 1: person who I have perceived as struggling a day and
57:39
Speaker 1: just like make a small moment to think, like I
57:45
Speaker 1: hope that Britney Spears found someone to be compassionate to
57:48
Speaker 1: her today, Like I hope that Amanda Bindes found a
57:51
Speaker 1: moment of peace today, Like just like you know my
57:55
Speaker 1: favorites and some usually it is also a friend or
58:00
Speaker 1: a loved one at some point, but a lot of
58:01
Speaker 1: the time it is Britney Spears or Amanda Buying Well.
58:04
Speaker 4: They need it. So I'm glad that you're sunning your
58:07
Speaker 4: good vibes out to.
58:08
Speaker 1: Them because it worked for Lindsay Lohan. She's better than ever,
58:13
Speaker 1: I mean better.
58:15
Speaker 4: I want to know her.
58:17
Speaker 3: I'm not going to say her plastic surgeon, because she
58:19
Speaker 3: denies that she had plus surgery, but I want to
58:21
Speaker 3: know her.
58:21
Speaker 4: People's info. Yeah, by way her.
58:25
Speaker 1: Facialist, right, Sarah, make sure that the teleraders know all
58:30
Speaker 1: of the ways that they can connect with you. Thank
58:32
Speaker 1: you again so much for being here.
58:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me on.
58:36
Speaker 3: So they can find me on Instagram at Sarah dot
58:39
Speaker 3: a dot intelligator dot sq or on my website which
58:44
Speaker 3: is LA Family Law Practice dot com. And they can
58:49
Speaker 3: find my book Live Laugh byd True Love on Amazon
58:52
Speaker 3: or her book So Sold.
58:53
Speaker 1: All right, and all of that will be linked in
58:55
Speaker 1: the show notes. Because I would never make anyone do homework.
58:58
Speaker 1: I don't teach anymore. And remember, tolerators, you don't have
59:03
Speaker 1: to tolerate it, or I always mess up at least
59:08
Speaker 1: one of my catchphrases. And remember, tolerators, you don't have
59:13
Speaker 1: to smile through anything you're tolerating, including a relationship that
59:19
Speaker 1: is very mispatched and has run its course. But everyone
59:23
Speaker 1: keeps telling you to hold on because maybe one day
59:26
Speaker 1: you'll get happy and get to wear a really big
59:29
Speaker 1: white dress. Smiles are for joy, run run. Smiles are
59:34
Speaker 1: for happiness and for joy. That's all we're trying to
59:37
Speaker 1: tell you.