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Summer Starter Series: Making Saving Easier · She's On The Money

0:00
Speaker 1: Hello.
0:01
Speaker 2: My name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud yr the
0:05
Speaker 2: Order Kerney Whoalbury and a waddery woman. And before we
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Speaker 2: get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would
0:11
Speaker 2: like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of
0:14
Speaker 2: which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country, acknowledging
0:18
Speaker 2: the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through.
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Speaker 2: As this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and
0:27
Speaker 2: the storytelling of you to make a difference for today
0:31
Speaker 2: and lasting impact for tomorrow.
0:33
Speaker 1: Let's get into it.
0:34
Speaker 3: She's on the Money, She's on the Money. Hello, and
0:58
Speaker 3: welcome to we bone episode of She's on the Money,
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Speaker 3: the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. My name
1:06
Speaker 3: is Victoria Devine, and today we have a very special
1:09
Speaker 3: bonus episode of the show that is looking at the
1:12
Speaker 3: psychology of savings and we also have a very special guest,
1:18
Speaker 3: my friend. Doctor Lilly Susman is a social scientist and
1:22
Speaker 3: the chief strategy officer at Wiser. Lily's PhD research at
1:27
Speaker 3: Harvard University was on decision making, behavioral economics and psychology,
1:32
Speaker 3: and foreign policy decision making throughout her career, Lily has
1:36
Speaker 3: been guided by a purpose to understand and address profound
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Speaker 3: human flourishing, including financial, relational, and psychological wellbeing. She is
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Speaker 3: supporting Australians to make effective and incremental changes in aligning
1:50
Speaker 3: everyday money behaviors to deeper values. And I cannot think
1:53
Speaker 3: of something that aligns more to She's on the money
1:56
Speaker 3: than doctor Lily Susman. As Chief Strategy Officer, Lily conceptualized
2:01
Speaker 3: Wiser Today from scratch and we are or I am
2:05
Speaker 3: super thrilled to have her here with us today.
2:07
Speaker 1: Lily, welcome to the show.
2:10
Speaker 4: Oh thank you, Victoria. You know that I'm a massive
2:13
Speaker 4: fan of this community. I'm super passionate about what we're
2:17
Speaker 4: talking about and everything this community cares about. So it's
2:21
Speaker 4: really wonderful to be here today talking with you about
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Speaker 4: financial health.
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Speaker 3: I feel like I am so excited to welcome you
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Speaker 3: to the show because this might sound really new to
2:31
Speaker 3: everybody listening, but you have been slaving away over this
2:34
Speaker 3: for literally years and I even got the opportunity to
2:38
Speaker 3: sign an NDA and be brought into the loop literally
2:41
Speaker 3: more than a year ago to talk to you about
2:43
Speaker 3: this and you know, play a little role in it.
2:46
Speaker 3: And I'm just so glad that it is launched, and
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Speaker 3: I'm just honestly so excited because I one hundred percent
2:52
Speaker 3: identify with everything that drives you so lily. Let's start
2:56
Speaker 3: off with money stress. You describe money and financial stress
3:00
Speaker 3: is quote one of the last taboos. Why do you
3:02
Speaker 3: think it's still so hard for us to open up
3:05
Speaker 3: about financial stress or talk about money with our friends
3:08
Speaker 3: and family?
3:09
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, such a good question. Money is such a
3:12
Speaker 4: big taboo in our culture. National surveys have shown that
3:16
Speaker 4: we're actually more comfortable talking with our friends about virtually
3:20
Speaker 4: anything else, like politics, religion, even you know, things like addiction, race,
3:26
Speaker 4: marital discord, sex. We'd actually go to great length to
3:30
Speaker 4: avoid the subject. There was a survey done that showed
3:34
Speaker 4: that almost a third of us would rather sit through
3:37
Speaker 4: two hours of traffic or speak in front of a
3:40
Speaker 4: large audience than have to discuss this taboo subject of money.
3:44
Speaker 4: And it's crazy because the average person is secretly worrying
3:49
Speaker 4: about it multiple times a day and the evidence shows
3:52
Speaker 4: that nearly half of Australians are regularly stressing about money.
3:56
Speaker 4: But it's just so awkward to bring up.
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Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 4: Imagine, one minute, you're with friends and you're laughing over
4:01
Speaker 4: drinks and then the next minute someone brings up the
4:04
Speaker 4: cost of the evening out or their savings plan, and
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Speaker 4: the mood just like, ooh, just plants and chill.
4:11
Speaker 1: Not in my house, my friend, never not in my house.
4:14
Speaker 3: I feel like it's funny because you said people would
4:16
Speaker 3: rather the sit in traffic, and the community you're talking
4:19
Speaker 3: to right now literally sit in traffic and listen to
4:21
Speaker 3: money podcasts. So we might not be able to super
4:24
Speaker 3: resonate with that, but I feel like every other Australian,
4:27
Speaker 3: though that's not in the shehes on the money community
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Speaker 3: is like I would literally rather the sit in traffic,
4:32
Speaker 3: and then our community like, oh, when we're sitting in traffic,
4:34
Speaker 3: that's what we're doing exactly.
4:37
Speaker 4: But that's what makes this community so special, right because
4:40
Speaker 4: we're together breaking the taboo. But I think, you know,
4:43
Speaker 4: the surveys around the average person and their level of
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Speaker 4: comfort talking about money socially is very, very low, and
4:52
Speaker 4: it's so awkward and it feels hard to talk about
4:56
Speaker 4: because you know, we live in a society where sometimes
4:59
Speaker 4: we're made to feel like or we have this implicit
5:03
Speaker 4: norm that our self worth is somehow related or even
5:07
Speaker 4: based on how much money we have, how rich we look,
5:10
Speaker 4: And there's a lot of shame still around not having
5:13
Speaker 4: as much money as those around us, fearing that we're
5:16
Speaker 4: somehow maybe not as valued or we don't belong if
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Speaker 4: we can't keep up financially, and just makes it hard
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Speaker 4: to talk about with friends, whether you're the friend with
5:26
Speaker 4: more money or the friend with less money.
5:28
Speaker 1: Why do you think we still like that though?
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Speaker 3: I just genuinely, you know, obviously I'm in a very
5:34
Speaker 3: privileged position, but like, why is it still so awkward?
5:37
Speaker 1: Like why are we feeling this way?
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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's such a good question. I just think there's
5:41
Speaker 4: this implicit norm that we've been raised with, right, that
5:44
Speaker 4: money equals worth, but it's not. And I think there's
5:48
Speaker 4: also this second hidden norm that somehow we're sort of
5:52
Speaker 4: responsible for how we're doing financially, like it's our fault
5:56
Speaker 4: if things aren't going well. But actually, you know, both
6:00
Speaker 4: externally and internally, externally, there are systemic reasons outside of
6:05
Speaker 4: our control. And you know, there are things like the
6:08
Speaker 4: gender pay gap, the things you talk about a lot,
6:10
Speaker 4: the fact that more women do caring professions, which often
6:13
Speaker 4: pay less, Challenges from the changing macroeconomic environment, are family histories,
6:18
Speaker 4: unexpected stuff like COVID, job loss, separation, illness. You know,
6:22
Speaker 4: so many things happen to us we don't control that
6:25
Speaker 4: they can impact our financial lives. And then internally, we
6:29
Speaker 4: were never taught about money habits or the psychology behind them,
6:33
Speaker 4: and so our money behaviors are typically an autopilot and
6:36
Speaker 4: they're not our fault because of the way our brains work,
6:40
Speaker 4: and so we have to experience sort of modeling through
6:44
Speaker 4: all of that, and we're often blaming ourselves unfairly, feeling embarrassed,
6:49
Speaker 4: feeling responsible. And who wants to talk about that with friends?
6:53
Speaker 4: I mean, I do you do? We need to? It's
6:56
Speaker 4: so important, I do.
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Speaker 3: We're really cool though, we are so cool. I feel
7:00
Speaker 3: like we excelled at school and had no friends and
7:03
Speaker 3: this is where we've ended up.
7:06
Speaker 1: And that's how we found each other.
7:10
Speaker 4: Well, you know what, I think, not having friends earlier,
7:14
Speaker 4: when we were nerding.
7:15
Speaker 1: I was busy building this.
7:17
Speaker 4: You know what's never too late. And I think you're
7:19
Speaker 4: an expert connector and you're you know, this is a
7:22
Speaker 4: community where people belong and can break the taboo. And
7:26
Speaker 4: I think the antidote to that money being taboo is
7:30
Speaker 4: so key because you know, we all say the truth
7:34
Speaker 4: will set you free, right, and we're also hardwired as
7:37
Speaker 4: social beings for connection and belonging, so we don't want
7:41
Speaker 4: to struggle in silence privately, but we have to just
7:46
Speaker 4: recognize there is still this taboo that money somehow equates
7:51
Speaker 4: with worth, and that we unfairly blame ourselves, and it's
7:54
Speaker 4: just really important to see start seeing money differently, that
7:59
Speaker 4: you know, it's a recent to live life how we
8:01
Speaker 4: want and that's all it is, and we can change
8:04
Speaker 4: it and make it better.
8:05
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, absolutely, you touched on something before that I
8:09
Speaker 3: obviously hop on about in our community.
8:11
Speaker 1: You said it might be how we grew up.
8:13
Speaker 3: And a really big part of the Shehes on the
8:15
Speaker 3: Money message is sharing the importance of really understanding deeply
8:19
Speaker 3: your money story and then making decisions that really align
8:22
Speaker 3: with your values. I feel like my community has heard
8:24
Speaker 3: me say that a million times. I feel like every
8:26
Speaker 3: question I get asked, I'm like, well, it depends on
8:29
Speaker 3: your values. And then when money stories are introduced to us,
8:32
Speaker 3: we seem to be shook by this concept because we've
8:35
Speaker 3: never heard of it before, So like, why do you
8:37
Speaker 3: think that is, And why do you think that not
8:40
Speaker 3: many of us know how important our money stories are
8:44
Speaker 3: to understand deeply?
8:45
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, psychology and managing our health and behavior,
8:51
Speaker 4: they're so foundational to our well being, but they're not
8:56
Speaker 4: taught in school at all, and exploring our values and
9:00
Speaker 4: our behavior in the psychology behind them is just not
9:03
Speaker 4: something we naturally do, right, And we just talked about
9:07
Speaker 4: how money is still taboo for so many of us
9:10
Speaker 4: and hushed up and the culture has completely misrepresented money
9:14
Speaker 4: as about being about numbers, you know, so what would
9:19
Speaker 4: you know our beliefs, emotions, or values have to do
9:22
Speaker 4: with it? You know, if you want to get on
9:24
Speaker 4: top of your finances, the things that were and often
9:29
Speaker 4: still are considered necessary are things like knowledge and practical skills.
9:33
Speaker 4: Like people talk about budgeting, spending less, saving more, investing,
9:37
Speaker 4: growing your wealth. Here's how you do it. But the
9:40
Speaker 4: problem is that knowledge is necessary but not sufficient for
9:45
Speaker 4: behavior change. So when we're struggling or we want to
9:48
Speaker 4: do better, we're used to thinking, Okay, well, what more
9:50
Speaker 4: information do I need, rather than going and try to
9:54
Speaker 4: figure out what's causing the struggle, like what's actually underneath
9:59
Speaker 4: what I makesperiencing, and what's the real solution. The real
10:03
Speaker 4: solution is always around. It's not about being more rational
10:09
Speaker 4: or more massy, or getting more money knowledge. It's actually
10:12
Speaker 4: about getting clear on our psychology and our habits and
10:17
Speaker 4: the underlying stuff that's happening in our brains that's behind
10:21
Speaker 4: it all. So we need to understand the context that's
10:24
Speaker 4: creating the behaviors and the feelings, and we need to
10:28
Speaker 4: get into our values and money stories, none of which
10:31
Speaker 4: happens on its own, right, Yeah, never, We just are
10:35
Speaker 4: not taught to do that. We don't do that in
10:37
Speaker 4: every day lives. So it's no surprise that we don't
10:40
Speaker 4: understand money. We don't understand why we're managing and spending
10:44
Speaker 4: money and thinking about money the way that we do.
10:47
Speaker 4: But luckily, there's more and more conversations like this one
10:50
Speaker 4: in our culture that's really having an impact, and there's
10:53
Speaker 4: growing recognition of why is it that our values in
10:57
Speaker 4: our psychology is so important and what's the relationship between
11:00
Speaker 4: you know, what we see when we open up our
11:02
Speaker 4: banking app and transaction balances and our habits which are
11:06
Speaker 4: often hidden, and then psychology underneath that.
11:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's crazy, I feel like so many of us
11:12
Speaker 3: have grown up with this underlying assumption that one dollar
11:15
Speaker 3: plus two dollars equals three dollars, and that's how money works.
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Speaker 3: And really it's actually about behaviors and thoughts and feelings
11:23
Speaker 3: and the transactions that those dollars create. That's what money
11:27
Speaker 3: is about. I just think so many times we just
11:30
Speaker 3: think about the actual coins or the actual notes, and
11:32
Speaker 3: that's actually not what money is. In our society, it
11:35
Speaker 3: drives so many different things. And we know, or I
11:39
Speaker 3: know deeply that you are so wildly passionate about the
11:42
Speaker 3: brain and psychology and behavioral change, and you mentioned it
11:46
Speaker 3: just before, so I want to know, like, how do
11:47
Speaker 3: we change our habits? How do we actually do this
11:50
Speaker 3: because so many of us find it so hard?
11:53
Speaker 1: Why?
11:54
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I think that's such an
11:57
Speaker 4: important question, not just in you know, our area of
12:00
Speaker 4: financial health, but of course health overall, right, and preventive health.
12:03
Speaker 4: Behavior change is a holy grail of preventive health. And
12:07
Speaker 4: the thing about behavior change is that it's definitely possible,
12:10
Speaker 4: but it's not easy. It doesn't happen naturally. So our
12:13
Speaker 4: brains are designed to conserve energy and create routines so
12:17
Speaker 4: that we're not constantly making unnecessary decisions, right, and that
12:21
Speaker 4: means our brains are designed to go on autopilot. So
12:24
Speaker 4: that's what habits are, things that we do without thinking
12:27
Speaker 4: too much about them, and that is not our fault.
12:29
Speaker 4: It's literally how our brains are designed and have evolved.
12:33
Speaker 4: But most of us do have habits that we've developed
12:36
Speaker 4: from the past that are on autopilot, and they may
12:40
Speaker 4: have been shaped over years or decades, but they may
12:42
Speaker 4: no longer be helpful to us, and we can't really
12:45
Speaker 4: see that. And every habit that we have is a
12:49
Speaker 4: habit we have in real life. It happens to be
12:52
Speaker 4: that we spend money on this habit, but you know,
12:54
Speaker 4: it's a habit that is in the context of our lives,
12:56
Speaker 4: like you know, whether it's takeaway or taking uber or
13:00
Speaker 4: online shopping. You know, every habit that we have typically
13:05
Speaker 4: adds up to hundreds or thousands, or even ten thousands
13:08
Speaker 4: in the course of a year. So for example, like
13:11
Speaker 4: a very common habit like to lattes a day adds
13:14
Speaker 4: up to over three thousand dollars a year, or one
13:18
Speaker 4: hundred dollars of takeaway a week adds up to over
13:20
Speaker 4: five thousand dollars a year, and very easily online shopping
13:24
Speaker 4: habits might add up to fifteen thousand dollars a year. Right,
13:27
Speaker 4: So a couple of small habitual behaviors that are on autopilot,
13:31
Speaker 4: that are mostly hidden to us because they're designed that
13:35
Speaker 4: way by our brains is actually the difference between having
13:38
Speaker 4: a healthy buffer and low stress and having a lot
13:41
Speaker 4: of financial stress and maybe feeling overwhelmed. So I think
13:45
Speaker 4: the first starting point is understanding that established habits we
13:48
Speaker 4: have are not our fault, right, that's how our brains
13:52
Speaker 4: design them. But if we want to see more clearly
13:55
Speaker 4: what those habits are and then change them, we have
13:58
Speaker 4: to go through a deliberate behavior change process. And behavior
14:03
Speaker 4: change is not impossible, as I said in Thinking, but
14:06
Speaker 4: it's not easy because we can do it when we're
14:09
Speaker 4: supported and we do it using the right methodology, which
14:12
Speaker 4: is working with how the brain likes to change. So
14:16
Speaker 4: we have established neuropathways, and we have habitual thoughts and
14:19
Speaker 4: emotional responses that are mostly unseen to us, and we
14:24
Speaker 4: can start building new alternative neural pathways and changing our
14:28
Speaker 4: automatic thoughts and emotions. If we start working with a
14:31
Speaker 4: brain in the right way, we have to go through
14:33
Speaker 4: a process of frequent but enjoyable practice, you know, build
14:37
Speaker 4: a new neural pathway that ends in the right kind
14:39
Speaker 4: of dopamine hit. And that's what we've been working on,
14:42
Speaker 4: and that's something that technology can actually help with in
14:46
Speaker 4: order to give you that easy practice on a daily
14:50
Speaker 4: basis or frequent basis that makes behavior change much easier.
14:54
Speaker 4: So I think the overall point is just it's not
14:57
Speaker 4: going to happen naturally. You know, we're not designed to
15:00
Speaker 4: to change our behavior naturally. But can it be done. Absolutely,
15:04
Speaker 4: it can be.
15:04
Speaker 3: You mentioned before, like their habits that were formed that
15:07
Speaker 3: might not be serving us anymore. And I feel like
15:09
Speaker 3: in our community something that we're all really good at.
15:13
Speaker 3: We don't want to admit this though, but we're really
15:14
Speaker 3: good at. It's kind of crucifying ourselves for the habits
15:18
Speaker 3: that we have. We're like, oh, my gosh, I'm so silly,
15:20
Speaker 3: or I'm so dumb, or I cannot believe I did this.
15:22
Speaker 1: Oh it's the worst, and we bury our heads in
15:25
Speaker 1: the sand.
15:26
Speaker 3: And I say that in a way that isn't me
15:28
Speaker 3: going this is what my community does, like I do
15:31
Speaker 3: it too. I feel like it's innately human to always
15:34
Speaker 3: crucify past us for decisions we made when we didn't
15:38
Speaker 3: have the tools in resources available to us to make
15:40
Speaker 3: the decision that we would have today. But from your perspective,
15:44
Speaker 3: like you're literally a doctor in this space. You are
15:47
Speaker 3: one of the smartest women I have ever met. Talk
15:51
Speaker 3: to me about how important it is to have a
15:53
Speaker 3: level of self compassion for yourself and like, how do
15:56
Speaker 3: we know when to be tough but also when to
15:59
Speaker 3: be really cld to ourselves, because I think that we're
16:02
Speaker 3: really bad at doing that sometimes, just as the human race,
16:06
Speaker 3: like not even just as women or just as you know,
16:09
Speaker 3: the shes on the money community. I feel like each
16:11
Speaker 3: and every single person crucifies themselves for past mistakes.
16:15
Speaker 4: Oh my god, we do, we do. I think it's
16:18
Speaker 4: a very human thing to do to be tough in ourselves,
16:21
Speaker 4: and especially it makes sense in light of what we're
16:25
Speaker 4: talking about earlier, how we feel like we're responsible for
16:29
Speaker 4: everything that's happened. You know, even if that's not true.
16:33
Speaker 4: You know, we are not the architects of evolution and
16:36
Speaker 4: how our brain was built, nor did we choose our
16:39
Speaker 4: families of origin and our upbringings, and you know, our
16:42
Speaker 4: education systems or the way the system is shaped, like
16:45
Speaker 4: we're actually not responsible in that way, and yet we
16:49
Speaker 4: have this notion that, Okay, you know, I feel like
16:51
Speaker 4: I need to be tough on myself. I want to
16:53
Speaker 4: get better at something, so I can't afford to be
16:56
Speaker 4: self compassionate. If I'm nice to myself, then I'm being
16:59
Speaker 4: self indulgent, I'm being lazy, you know. And we feel
17:02
Speaker 4: like being tough on yourself, you know, that's what discipline's about.
17:06
Speaker 4: You know, I need to be disciplined, I need to
17:07
Speaker 4: be tough on myself. But actually it's another one of
17:10
Speaker 4: these misunderstandings because we mistake discipline with self criticism. They
17:17
Speaker 4: are actually not the same thing at all. All the
17:20
Speaker 4: research on behavior change tells us that being self critical
17:26
Speaker 4: actually is detrimental to improving. It does not help you
17:30
Speaker 4: be disciplined and get better. The most helpful forms of
17:34
Speaker 4: discipline actually involve kindness and self compassion and positive reinforcement.
17:40
Speaker 4: So it's interesting because when it comes to money, you know,
17:42
Speaker 4: we talked about it, how is taboo? It's misunderstood. We
17:45
Speaker 4: feel responsible and there's all these kind of you know,
17:49
Speaker 4: misconceptions about it, and we feel like it's our fault.
17:54
Speaker 4: But it's actually really important to start with self compassion
18:00
Speaker 4: and start with making emotionally safe space for yourself to
18:05
Speaker 4: honestly acknowledge possible shortcomings, but without worrying too much about judgment.
18:11
Speaker 4: Because that emotional safe space we give ourselves is what
18:15
Speaker 4: starts the courage to make changes and one of the
18:19
Speaker 4: key things for me to understand, you know, and I'm
18:22
Speaker 4: very much with you, and I think this is not
18:26
Speaker 4: just something that applies to women, though it's certainly been
18:28
Speaker 4: well documented as something that applies to women, but also
18:32
Speaker 4: to men too, which is like negative self talk, right,
18:35
Speaker 4: It's just sort of runs in your brain and there's
18:37
Speaker 4: all this negative self talk sometimes that you don't even
18:40
Speaker 4: realize is there. But the specific language we use in
18:43
Speaker 4: our self talk makes a huge difference. Right. If my
18:47
Speaker 4: self talk when I'm stressed about money is oh, I'm
18:50
Speaker 4: just so irresponsible, or like, oh god, I'm hopeless with money,
18:53
Speaker 4: I'm such an idiot, you know that language that's a
18:56
Speaker 4: focus on the self rather than a focus on behavior.
19:00
Speaker 4: A focus on behavior is something really specific about a
19:02
Speaker 4: specific behavior. It's like, you know, I bought around when
19:05
Speaker 4: I didn't need to last night, I bought the suit
19:08
Speaker 4: to feel more confident at work, but I'm not sure
19:11
Speaker 4: it's helped me. I still feel funny at work. And
19:15
Speaker 4: that's a focus on behavior. Right. We can have the
19:18
Speaker 4: same action, right, which is like, oh, I overspent and
19:22
Speaker 4: I'm feeling bad. But what's my self talk? Is it
19:25
Speaker 4: focusing on myself in a negative way or is it
19:27
Speaker 4: just focusing on the behavior? Because one focusing on behavior
19:31
Speaker 4: is actually helpful for behavior change and makes sense for
19:35
Speaker 4: you know, quote unquote discipline and being tough on yourself
19:38
Speaker 4: in a positive way, versus the self talk that focused
19:42
Speaker 4: on the self is not helpful for behavior change, and
19:45
Speaker 4: it actually gets in the way of discipline and being
19:49
Speaker 4: tough on self and improving. So self talk is super
19:52
Speaker 4: important and self love and compassion is a starting point
19:55
Speaker 4: for change.
19:56
Speaker 3: It makes us so much sense because saying something like
19:59
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, the worst, like that's not constructive. It
20:02
Speaker 3: doesn't actually create this ability to you know, find a
20:06
Speaker 3: different behavior. Right, you just got I'm the worst, full
20:08
Speaker 3: stop end of story, Like what are you even talking about?
20:11
Speaker 3: Whereas if you go this behavior is the worst, you go,
20:14
Speaker 3: all right, well, what am I going to do about that?
20:16
Speaker 3: And I feel like it's that next step and it
20:18
Speaker 3: just makes sense, and so many of us are guilty
20:21
Speaker 3: for it. And I was having this conversation the other
20:24
Speaker 3: day Lily with a girlfriend and she's like, yeah, I know,
20:26
Speaker 3: you keep telling me to do these things because obviously
20:29
Speaker 3: I'm not just passionate about money on she's on the money.
20:32
Speaker 3: I'm passionate when I'm drinking wine on a Saturday night
20:35
Speaker 3: with my girlfriends. I'm like, oh my gosh, so this
20:37
Speaker 3: hot tip. They're just like, Victoria.
20:39
Speaker 1: Stop.
20:40
Speaker 3: But I was recommending to a girlfriend who is really
20:43
Speaker 3: harsh on herself the other day. I was like, why
20:45
Speaker 3: don't you just journal it out? Like, why don't you
20:47
Speaker 3: write all of these things down, because once you've written
20:49
Speaker 3: it down, it just kind of stares you in the
20:52
Speaker 3: face and is a lot easier to combat. And she's like, oh,
20:55
Speaker 3: but Victoria, journaling is so lame, And I was like,
20:58
Speaker 3: you need to move away from that, because as much
21:01
Speaker 3: as I agree like journaling is not for everybody, it
21:04
Speaker 3: can actually be a really constructive activity to go, you
21:07
Speaker 3: know what, Pragmatically, I'm just going to write down all
21:09
Speaker 3: these behaviors that I'm doing that I would like to
21:11
Speaker 3: reframe or change, because then you can overlay what you've
21:15
Speaker 3: been saying, Lily and go, well, is that actually about
21:17
Speaker 3: the behavior or is that about me? Because if it's
21:19
Speaker 3: about me, that's not helpful and we need to remove
21:22
Speaker 3: that from our language. And that's going to give you
21:24
Speaker 3: the ability to just directly see whether your negative self
21:28
Speaker 3: talk is a really big part of your narrative or not,
21:30
Speaker 3: because I think so many of us will go, oh,
21:32
Speaker 3: I don't have negative self talk until you actually have
21:36
Speaker 3: it staring at you on a piece of paper in
21:38
Speaker 3: front of you. Sometimes you just don't even realize, and
21:42
Speaker 3: it can be so detrimental. I promise the second you
21:45
Speaker 3: realize that you are being negative towards yourself and can
21:48
Speaker 3: reframe that or rephrase the way that you communicate with yourself,
21:51
Speaker 3: you become such a happier human. And it makes me
21:54
Speaker 3: so happy to know that I get to share you
21:56
Speaker 3: and all of your hot tips with our community, like
21:58
Speaker 3: it makes my soul so excited that these are the
22:01
Speaker 3: conversations we're having.
22:03
Speaker 4: Me too, Me too, And I just want to say
22:05
Speaker 4: to everybody that it's not our fault and this stuff
22:08
Speaker 4: doesn't come naturally. We don't just naturally, you know, know
22:10
Speaker 4: what we're thinking. We don't naturally journal, we don't naturally
22:14
Speaker 4: know our own psychology. It's not something we can expect
22:17
Speaker 4: of ourselves. I guess it's not like another failing that
22:19
Speaker 4: I haven't already done this, you know, self compassion is
22:22
Speaker 4: realizing like, Okay, this is how our brains are built
22:25
Speaker 4: and this is what's underlying our behavior. But you know,
22:28
Speaker 4: what can we do about it? And can we seek
22:30
Speaker 4: some active help? And you know that's why we've kind
22:33
Speaker 4: of been doing the work that we've done and building
22:35
Speaker 4: wiser today. But it's so important to start with not
22:39
Speaker 4: expecting too much of yourself.
22:41
Speaker 1: I could not agree more.
22:42
Speaker 3: All right, we do have to go to a really
22:44
Speaker 3: quick break, but on the other side of the break,
22:46
Speaker 3: I'm going to be talking to Lily about how we
22:48
Speaker 3: actually create meaningful change. So don't go anywhere, guys. All right, Lily,
22:57
Speaker 3: we are back, and I am so excited. We are
22:59
Speaker 3: talking about everything when it comes to decision making and
23:02
Speaker 3: behavioral economics, and we're talking about psychology and savings, and
23:05
Speaker 3: we're talking about whyser today and what you do with
23:08
Speaker 3: your work every single day. I would argue that you're
23:11
Speaker 3: justice equally passionate, if not more passionate than I am,
23:14
Speaker 3: about financial literacy and creating meaningful change. And I guess
23:18
Speaker 3: that's where I really want to kick the conversation off again.
23:22
Speaker 3: And if anyone in our community is listening and really
23:24
Speaker 3: resonating with the sense of I guess disconnect between actions
23:28
Speaker 3: and intent. Can you give us some top tips on
23:31
Speaker 3: what might get them to start creating meaningful change in
23:34
Speaker 3: their lives.
23:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know you mentioned this gap between intention and action,
23:41
Speaker 4: and first of all, everyone that has a human brain
23:44
Speaker 4: has a gap between intention and action. So we've got
23:46
Speaker 4: to normalize it. You know, it's not like the minute
23:49
Speaker 4: we think we want to do something, we can just
23:51
Speaker 4: do it. So we talked earlier about how it's not
23:54
Speaker 4: our fault that we have the habits and established our
23:56
Speaker 4: pathways that we do. We were not taught to manage
23:58
Speaker 4: this school, not to mention the brain naturally evolved to
24:02
Speaker 4: make habits hard to see, and you know, people tend
24:06
Speaker 4: to see it as a personal failure that they can't
24:08
Speaker 4: change on helpful habits or patterns of behavior, Like, Oh,
24:10
Speaker 4: I tried before, but you know I didn't succeed, So
24:13
Speaker 4: I didn't trust myself to do it in this area
24:16
Speaker 4: or any other area of my life. And it's super
24:19
Speaker 4: common for the brain to engage in black and white
24:21
Speaker 4: thinking like oh, you know, I made a mistake or
24:24
Speaker 4: I fell off the wagon, so I might as well
24:26
Speaker 4: give up. But in reality, you know, if we want
24:29
Speaker 4: to change anything in our lives, we can. But change
24:32
Speaker 4: is not linear because you have to work with the
24:34
Speaker 4: brain and understand how the brain changes. So, for example,
24:38
Speaker 4: existing habits they serve a helpful function, and usually we
24:42
Speaker 4: actually have to understand the deeper need that current habits
24:46
Speaker 4: are fulfilling, like am I buying all these new clothes
24:50
Speaker 4: or going to the bars a lot because it gives
24:53
Speaker 4: me a sense of belonging or respect or is it comfort?
24:59
Speaker 4: The deeper behind our habits will help us realize what
25:02
Speaker 4: is it that we need to solve for, and now
25:04
Speaker 4: we can start changing how we solve for those needs
25:07
Speaker 4: with possibly healthier habits, but in a way that doesn't
25:10
Speaker 4: ask too much of our brains. So it's helpful to
25:13
Speaker 4: do a little bite sized bit of change at a time.
25:16
Speaker 4: We all know that if we try to crash diet
25:19
Speaker 4: or change all of our standing behavior, make big changes
25:22
Speaker 4: really quickly. In two weeks, it won't work. We want
25:24
Speaker 4: fast results, but that's not how the brand changes.
25:27
Speaker 1: It's crazy, isn't it.
25:28
Speaker 3: We talk about this a lot in Sese on the Money,
25:31
Speaker 3: and I think I've spoken about it on the podcast
25:34
Speaker 3: before because I also am obsessed with psychology, Like it's
25:37
Speaker 3: not an accident that I also studied it. But I
25:40
Speaker 3: think the thing that we forget, and I think you
25:41
Speaker 3: and I were talking about this literally more than a
25:44
Speaker 3: year ago, people forget that as humans as much as
25:47
Speaker 3: it's twenty twenty two and we have corporate jobs and like,
25:50
Speaker 3: we literally can create the life we want to create innately,
25:54
Speaker 3: we are individuals who have survival mode still turned on,
25:59
Speaker 3: and survival mode really leans towards being comfortable because comfort
26:04
Speaker 3: is equal to safety. And if comfort is equal to safety,
26:06
Speaker 3: why would we move away from those habits where we
26:09
Speaker 3: are so deeply connected to being able to be safe
26:13
Speaker 3: and safe is literally all our body wants.
26:16
Speaker 1: So it makes sense.
26:17
Speaker 3: That's why change is so uncomfortable, because your body goes
26:20
Speaker 3: through a level of trauma to change it because you're
26:22
Speaker 3: literally like, oh my gosh, I'm not safe anymore, and
26:24
Speaker 3: I'm actually a human that needs to be safe, like
26:27
Speaker 3: go back to cave man area, like leave the cave
26:29
Speaker 3: feel a little bit anxious, of course, because there are
26:32
Speaker 3: risks out there, and I just think that we forget
26:35
Speaker 3: that so deeply because we're so disconnected from that. And
26:39
Speaker 3: that's why behavioral change is so hard to make, because
26:41
Speaker 3: we're not meant to make changes if it keeps us alive,
26:44
Speaker 3: right totally.
26:46
Speaker 4: You know, our habits have evolved for a reason, but
26:49
Speaker 4: that doesn't mean that those reasons continue to serve us.
26:53
Speaker 4: So we can work on one habit at a time
26:57
Speaker 4: if we want to change, rather than try to change
26:59
Speaker 4: the whole constellation of all our money habits. We can
27:03
Speaker 4: you know, practice small little changes that intentionally then results
27:08
Speaker 4: in a dopamine hit and build a positive reinforcement loop
27:12
Speaker 4: for your brain. And that's what wiser Today's about. And
27:15
Speaker 4: it's really important to make nonlinear progress because it just
27:19
Speaker 4: isn't like, oh, I'm going to get on this wagon
27:21
Speaker 4: of change and then everything is just going to go easy.
27:24
Speaker 4: Change that is effective and sustainable is not linear, So
27:28
Speaker 4: it's totally okay to fall off the wagon and then
27:31
Speaker 4: get back on when you're ready. That's actually a natural
27:35
Speaker 4: part of how the brain wants to change, and so
27:38
Speaker 4: you can retrain your brain and behavior over time. And
27:42
Speaker 4: the key to that is you have to feel good
27:44
Speaker 4: along the way. Right, A lot of people think, oh,
27:46
Speaker 4: what about deprivation. Am I going to have to change
27:49
Speaker 4: and give up what I really care about? Well, no,
27:52
Speaker 4: that's not going to drive sustainable change. Behavior change succeeds
27:56
Speaker 4: if you're feeling good along the way. If you let
27:59
Speaker 4: go of the guilt, you normalize the gap between intention
28:02
Speaker 4: and action, and you use science and get science based
28:06
Speaker 4: guidance that helps you to start closing this gap between
28:11
Speaker 4: intention and action, but in a much easier kind of small,
28:14
Speaker 4: bite sized daily way. And I think learning over time
28:19
Speaker 4: about psychology and you know, going back to your journaling example,
28:23
Speaker 4: whatever method it is, discovering over time and having the
28:28
Speaker 4: guidance to do that. What our thoughts are, just actually
28:31
Speaker 4: see what they are. Realize what thoughts are running around
28:34
Speaker 4: in our heads that might be leading to inaction or
28:37
Speaker 4: actions that are not aligned with what we really want.
28:40
Speaker 4: You know. Maybe it's a lack of self efficacy, like
28:44
Speaker 4: our lack of a belief and our own ability to
28:46
Speaker 4: achieve our goals or change, you know, or it's underlying
28:50
Speaker 4: beliefs and attitudes about the behavior we're trying to change.
28:54
Speaker 4: Like sometimes we say, for example, oh, we want to
28:56
Speaker 4: save more money, right, But if we dig into it,
29:00
Speaker 4: how we truly are thinking about saving money, it might
29:04
Speaker 4: be associated with feelings of deprivation, like I don't want
29:08
Speaker 4: to be deprived.
29:09
Speaker 3: No one wants to be deprived. One out of ten
29:12
Speaker 3: cannot recommend exactly.
29:14
Speaker 4: But if I'm saying that, right, if I'm saying that
29:17
Speaker 4: to myself, that saving is deprivation, that's the immediate thought
29:21
Speaker 4: that comes up, Then you know what's that about? And
29:25
Speaker 4: is that the helpful thought? And we might have a
29:28
Speaker 4: story likewise that says, Okay, it's probably not that big
29:31
Speaker 4: of a deal if we don't have an emergency fund,
29:33
Speaker 4: like maybe it's something to do when you're older. You know,
29:35
Speaker 4: whatever that story is, those underlying beliefs and attitudes, it's
29:39
Speaker 4: really beneath a surface and it's hard to see, but
29:42
Speaker 4: it might be what's really driving our behavior. So I
29:45
Speaker 4: think there's a lot of reasons why there's a very
29:49
Speaker 4: normal gap between intention and action. It's very normal. We
29:53
Speaker 4: all have it. We shouldn't blame ourselves for it, but
29:55
Speaker 4: we can do something about it.
29:57
Speaker 3: So talk to me a little bit about why financial
30:00
Speaker 3: health specifically is so important.
30:02
Speaker 1: I mean you touched on it before.
30:04
Speaker 3: We were talking about I guess behavioral based guidance, and
30:07
Speaker 3: we're talking about, you know, the science behind it is
30:10
Speaker 3: I guess money.
30:11
Speaker 1: The answer? Is more money the answer? Or is it
30:14
Speaker 1: something else?
30:15
Speaker 4: Like?
30:15
Speaker 3: What is driving that? Why should financial health be made
30:18
Speaker 3: a priority?
30:19
Speaker 4: Oh? Such a good question, you know, I feel like
30:20
Speaker 4: it's so misunderstood. Financial health is important because money is
30:25
Speaker 4: just a resource like health, energy, and time. It's a
30:29
Speaker 4: resource we have to earn and conserve and use, and
30:32
Speaker 4: how well we deal with this resource just has a
30:36
Speaker 4: huge impact in our lives. Right, we can't escape it.
30:39
Speaker 4: It has a huge impact on our well being, in
30:41
Speaker 4: our sense of self because more money is not the answer,
30:44
Speaker 4: because money itself is not the answer. Because even people
30:47
Speaker 4: who are rich still have to deal with this, right,
30:49
Speaker 4: they still have to deal with the problem of how
30:51
Speaker 4: to use and manage this resource. The issues don't go away.
30:55
Speaker 4: Financial health just is something that is a part of
30:58
Speaker 4: health and life. And we see that in wealthy, dysfunctional families.
31:04
Speaker 4: We see it in lottery winners. You know, it's well
31:06
Speaker 4: established research that shows that a lot of lottery winners
31:11
Speaker 4: do not become happier after they win the lottery, And
31:14
Speaker 4: even the research shows that we don't become happier at
31:18
Speaker 4: a population level above a certain threshold of income, which
31:21
Speaker 4: isn't even that high.
31:22
Speaker 3: It's really not And I think it's so surprising as well,
31:25
Speaker 3: because in Australia nowadays, and don't quote me on these statistics,
31:29
Speaker 3: you're the one coming to the table today with stats,
31:31
Speaker 3: but the average Australian income is now setting it around
31:35
Speaker 3: eighty to eighty two ish thousand dollars, and that actually
31:38
Speaker 3: is the amount of money where happiness doesn't start increasing
31:42
Speaker 3: anymore after you reach that. So it's literally you earn
31:45
Speaker 3: the average amount and you aren't going to get happier
31:47
Speaker 3: the more you earn. It blows my mind, and I
31:50
Speaker 3: think that that has something to do with going back
31:52
Speaker 3: to our conversation about safety and security, because that's the
31:56
Speaker 3: amount of money that puts food on your table and
31:58
Speaker 3: makes sure all of your bills are come it and
32:00
Speaker 3: you're not deprived in any way. So anything above and
32:03
Speaker 3: beyond that is great, it's special, but it's not going
32:06
Speaker 3: to contribute to your underlying happiness.
32:09
Speaker 1: And I think that so many of us have been.
32:11
Speaker 3: Tricked, especially in such a commercial world now that more
32:15
Speaker 3: money is going to equal more happiness because obviously bags
32:18
Speaker 3: and shoes and all of these other things that are
32:20
Speaker 3: material somehow impact our mental health and they really don't.
32:24
Speaker 4: Ah, so true, so true. You know, we talked about
32:28
Speaker 4: how looking rich is an implicit norm, like it's better
32:34
Speaker 4: if you look rich, but that's not true from a
32:37
Speaker 4: real happiness level, right, research shows not true.
32:41
Speaker 1: No, that's not sexy.
32:43
Speaker 3: We've talked about this before, and it's just like this
32:46
Speaker 3: idea of seeing somebody wearing all the expensive clothes and
32:50
Speaker 3: wearing all the expensive jewelry.
32:52
Speaker 1: It baffles me.
32:53
Speaker 3: Right that I saw this on social media the other
32:55
Speaker 3: day and I kind of had a little laugh to myself.
32:58
Speaker 3: Somebody posted that they've got a new car, so like
33:01
Speaker 3: they'd posted this picture of their brand new car and
33:04
Speaker 3: it had this big red bow on it, and I
33:06
Speaker 3: was like, Wow, we're celebrating getting into debt because there's
33:10
Speaker 3: absolutely no way that that car was not financed from
33:13
Speaker 3: that individual. I just knew it. And we're celebrating taking
33:17
Speaker 3: on finance. But nobody ever posts when they make their
33:21
Speaker 3: first investment or they are taking that next step, or
33:23
Speaker 3: they're making additional superranuation contributions because that's not seen as sexy.
33:28
Speaker 3: But we're literally celebrating somebody going into debt, like everyone's commenting,
33:32
Speaker 3: oh my god, congrats, well done, girlfriend, You've done so well,
33:35
Speaker 3: Like wow, this is amazing, and I'm like, wait, what,
33:38
Speaker 3: Like we're celebrating that, but no one's going to jump
33:41
Speaker 3: up and down about the wealth creation side of things
33:45
Speaker 3: that is actually going to create not only financial security,
33:48
Speaker 3: but mental health.
33:50
Speaker 1: Like every other.
33:51
Speaker 3: Kind of security that exists is going to stem from
33:54
Speaker 3: some level of financial stability. And it blew my mind
33:58
Speaker 3: and it reminds me of that idea that fake rich
34:00
Speaker 3: now real poor later, which we say a lot on
34:03
Speaker 3: the podcast.
34:04
Speaker 1: But wealth is kind of secret.
34:06
Speaker 3: Rich is shiny and visible and it is not actually wealth.
34:11
Speaker 1: Wealth is private. Wealth is secret.
34:13
Speaker 3: Wealth is quiet, and I think that there's something really
34:15
Speaker 3: sexy about it.
34:17
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, Spending is visible, but saving is invisible exactly.
34:22
Speaker 3: Like if you're spending and you're thinking that these material
34:26
Speaker 3: items are what brings value, like, it just is so
34:29
Speaker 3: backwards to me.
34:30
Speaker 1: It is so backwards, it really is.
34:32
Speaker 4: But you know, I think financial health because money is
34:36
Speaker 4: so misunderstood because we're looking at all the wrong things
34:39
Speaker 4: and we don't understand that financial health is actually about
34:42
Speaker 4: our psychology and our personal values and healthy habits in psychology,
34:47
Speaker 4: it's so integral to our lives. But it's like the
34:51
Speaker 4: entire financial industry isn't designing for that yet, right. I'd
34:56
Speaker 4: love to see the whole industry pivot and take it seriously,
34:59
Speaker 4: why don't we design products and services actually help people
35:02
Speaker 4: with financial health rather than go down a path of thinking, oh,
35:07
Speaker 4: you know, money is just about dollars and cents, and
35:09
Speaker 4: we're going to put all this innovation effort into an
35:12
Speaker 4: extra percent on a financial product or digitize some process
35:16
Speaker 4: so you can buy a financial product.
35:18
Speaker 3: Faster, because that's not where the money is. Lily, you
35:22
Speaker 3: and I both know that, and I mean, you're so
35:24
Speaker 3: wildly passionate about it. You've been working on Weiser today
35:27
Speaker 3: literally for years. But I guess you and I both
35:30
Speaker 3: know that as much as you're wildly passionate about this,
35:33
Speaker 3: and this is going to have, honestly such a big
35:37
Speaker 3: change not only to our community but Australia wide. But
35:40
Speaker 3: in not doing it because it's driving profit like it
35:43
Speaker 3: is definitely hopefully going to be profitable, because it's like
35:46
Speaker 3: a business at the end of the day, and the
35:47
Speaker 3: more profitable a business is, the more impact it can have. However,
35:51
Speaker 3: like I think that you guys have a very different
35:54
Speaker 3: view of what success means, and your idea of success
35:58
Speaker 3: from my perspective, has never been about the dollars on
36:01
Speaker 3: your balance sheet, and something I super respect about you guys,
36:04
Speaker 3: because it's just every other financial institution is about that
36:07
Speaker 3: extra percent, do you know what I mean?
36:09
Speaker 4: I do, But I think that that's just because people
36:13
Speaker 4: think that, you know, the current financial products are the
36:16
Speaker 4: ones that make money, whereas I think that people care
36:20
Speaker 4: about financial health. We care about money in the context
36:22
Speaker 4: of our real lives, and if we're able to come
36:25
Speaker 4: up with the actually genuinely helpful products and services that
36:30
Speaker 4: that will be sustainable because people will want it. So
36:33
Speaker 4: I guess I feel like it's a win win. But
36:36
Speaker 4: I think it's our job to lift the money taboo
36:39
Speaker 4: and to move financial health into the light because it
36:43
Speaker 4: is important for everybody. There shouldn't be shame around it,
36:46
Speaker 4: and we can use technology and science and everything that
36:49
Speaker 4: we are starting to learn about the brain and proven
36:53
Speaker 4: interventions around behavior change to really build completely different things.
37:00
Speaker 4: I can imagine a really different future for money. How
37:04
Speaker 4: we talk about in our culture, the products and services
37:06
Speaker 4: that we have on offer. I think today's just you know,
37:10
Speaker 4: we're just getting started on that. And think about how
37:14
Speaker 4: much the conversation around mental health has moved into the
37:17
Speaker 4: light since COVID. You know, things can change quickly, and
37:21
Speaker 4: I think we can start lifting the money taboo. And
37:23
Speaker 4: that's why this community is so important and the work
37:26
Speaker 4: that you do has such an impact on people's lives.
37:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, I honestly could not agree more Lily, and honestly,
37:35
Speaker 3: unfortunately that is all we have time for today. But
37:38
Speaker 3: before we go, I want to know our community has
37:41
Speaker 3: arguably fallen in love with you after having this conversation,
37:44
Speaker 3: because I know I'm obsessed with you. Where can we
37:47
Speaker 3: go to learn more about you and more about Wiser today.
37:51
Speaker 4: You can go on the Wiser website. You can also
37:54
Speaker 4: find me on LinkedIn, and of course I'm part of
37:58
Speaker 4: the She's on the Money community on face buck love
38:01
Speaker 4: it so much. Gives me inspiration every week.
38:03
Speaker 1: You actually are, which is my favorite. I adore it.
38:07
Speaker 3: The Lily is definitely part of the community, but hit
38:10
Speaker 3: her up if you want to have a chat on
38:12
Speaker 3: LinkedIn or she writes heaps of articles and is always
38:15
Speaker 3: contributing on the Wiser website.
38:17
Speaker 1: You can search her up.
38:18
Speaker 3: You can search Wiser Today up and check it all
38:20
Speaker 3: out because honestly, their work is incredible and I adore you.
38:24
Speaker 3: Thank you for joining us today, Lily, it has as
38:27
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