Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #103 - Lindsey Busfield on What Actually Helps Law Firms Show Up in AI Search

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#103 - Lindsey Busfield on What Actually Helps Law Firms Show Up in AI Search · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: AI is coming in and taking over everything by storm.
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  SPEAKER_01: When it comes to AI search, how do we know how we're doing?
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  SPEAKER_00: Unlike traditional SEO,
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  SPEAKER_00: where it is,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: an index and rank,
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  SPEAKER_00: AI is going
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  SPEAKER_00: to shift how it answers questions pretty much every time somebody asks it.
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  SPEAKER_00: If it is good for SEO, then it's typically good for AI.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's a pretty You are listening to Sharp Strategies Sweet Success.
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  [music]
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  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone, and welcome.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: You're listening to Sharp Strategies Sweet Success.
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  SPEAKER_01: I am your host,
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  SPEAKER_01: Tiffany Swedensky,
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  SPEAKER_01: and today we're talking with Lindsay Busfield of Optimize My Firm.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: And Lindsay is on my show today.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think this is our first time meeting.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't think We've just spoken at an event or anything.
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  SPEAKER_01: So happy to have her on.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'll go ahead and let her introduce her company and what she does.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Tiffany.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great meeting you for the first time here today.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I am Lindsay Busfield.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm the vice president and a partner over at Optimize My Firm.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we are a very weird niche, niche,
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  SPEAKER_00: niche marketing agency where we just do search engine optimization and we just do it
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  SPEAKER_00: for personal injury lawyers.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we have kind of, you know, ultimate niched down into that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of the long and short of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: It makes it pretty easy to explain what we do.
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  SPEAKER_00: So pretty much anything having to do with getting personal injury lawyers to show up
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  SPEAKER_00: on Google or AI search results or the local pack,
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  SPEAKER_00: all of that is what we do every day.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that's interesting.
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  SPEAKER_01: You don't hear of that too often and you wouldn't really know unless you're kind
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  SPEAKER_01: of like a vendor like me and just talk to a bunch of other vendors,
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  SPEAKER_01: but most like of the major SEO companies out there,
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  SPEAKER_01: they also work in back dentistry and something else.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're big companies and they might be well known for personal injury,
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  SPEAKER_01: but most of them do other things.
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  SPEAKER_01: I often wonder if the strategies they're using for the dentists are the same
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  SPEAKER_01: that they're using for personal injury or if there is a huge difference.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is a really similar strategy across the board because Google or the LLMs
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  SPEAKER_00: or everybody out there is kind of looking for the same types of information.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's just any sort of information that a prospective customer
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  SPEAKER_00: or client might be asking and then having content that aligns with those questions.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then of course getting the backlinks and domain authority to boost up
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  SPEAKER_00: that content so it actually shows up.
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  SPEAKER_00: So in a nutshell, yes,
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  SPEAKER_00: it is a really similar strategy across the board,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially in terms of the siloed content development.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the backlink strategy that goes along with it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Those things, I can say it, but I'll ask you, are those things still important?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like has that changed at all with how everything is changing in the search landscape these days?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is still incredibly important.
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  SPEAKER_00: And yes, AI is coming in and taking over everything by storm.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's important to really understand how AI works
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  SPEAKER_00: and how those LLMs are developing and aggregating that content and spitting it out.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's a zero click search result for you.
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  SPEAKER_00: And in a nutshell, what it's doing is it's pulling from existing content.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the existing content on your website,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is optimized for search engines,
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  SPEAKER_00: including the LLM engines is crucially important.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then the other thing that everybody needs to be doing in addition
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  SPEAKER_00: To the traditional search engine optimization is expanding that digital footprint.
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  SPEAKER_00: So going on podcasts,
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  SPEAKER_00: making YouTube videos,
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  SPEAKER_00: creating thought leadership articles for LinkedIn, and then getting reviews.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's more important than ever right now.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's all of those things that are just digital best practices across the board
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  SPEAKER_00: that are even more important now than ever.
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  SPEAKER_01: I would say that best practices in marketing are really important across
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  SPEAKER_01: the board more than they were five years ago.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let me ask you, I don't know if this is a tough question.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've had a tough time finding
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  SPEAKER_01: the answer,
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  SPEAKER_01: but when it comes to AI search, how do we know how we're doing?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you track that?
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  SPEAKER_01: What are we looking at?
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's a really great question.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the problem is that there isn't a great way to track it because
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  SPEAKER_00: the AI search results are going to produce a different result just
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  SPEAKER_00: about any time anyone searches.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you can get somewhat of an idea for how your show Yeah, I think that's a good thing.
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  SPEAKER_00: Traditional SEO where it is,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: an index in rank,
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  SPEAKER_00: AI is going
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  SPEAKER_00: to shift how it answers questions pretty much every time somebody asks it.
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  SPEAKER_00: So there's no great way to track it.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's going to be 100% accurate, but you can get a general idea through SEMrush or your GA4.
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  SPEAKER_01: So one question I wonder about with AI,
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  SPEAKER_01: because with Google and other search engines,
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  SPEAKER_01: but we think more most about Google when we talk about it,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: they have an algorithm that to my knowledge is pretty much constantly on
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  SPEAKER_01: the internet.
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  SPEAKER_01: Crawling websites,
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  SPEAKER_01: reevaluating websites,
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  SPEAKER_01: and their systems are processing information about our websites to update a ranking
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  SPEAKER_01: for that law firm.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why like law firms or any business will use SEO reports.
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  SPEAKER_01: Which are pulled,
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  SPEAKER_01: the Ahrefs, SEMrush, you know, they all pull from Google's API or one of them.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so get data, you know, back about how you rank.
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  SPEAKER_01: But with AI, I mean, AI, LLMs aren't search engines, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: So there really isn't a rank.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how I'm asking it,
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  SPEAKER_01: but do we have any information about how often is ChatGPT crawling our websites?
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  SPEAKER_01: How often are they doing it?
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  SPEAKER_01: Does it come with retraining?
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  SPEAKER_01: Do we know anything like that?
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  SPEAKER_00: I personally don't know anything like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: So what I do know is that they are pulling from best,
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  SPEAKER_00: most reliable information that does pull off of Google's algorithms and
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  SPEAKER_00: the other existing algorithms out there.
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  SPEAKER_00: So their criteria is definitely more brand aware as opposed to digitalization.
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  SPEAKER_00: Just organic SEO criteria of content and backlinks.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you have to take into account that they are looking at your organic rankings.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're looking at your review profile.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're looking at how your brand is consistently represented
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  SPEAKER_00: across multiple platforms and directory listings and the social media and all
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  SPEAKER_00: of this.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then it synthesizes that information.
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  SPEAKER_00: And creates a singular result based off not just the query that the user is asking,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also the intent of that query.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's a lot more complex in how the LLMs are looking at that information than
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  SPEAKER_00: the traditional Google algorithm.
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  SPEAKER_01: So as far as one of the things attorneys ask me a lot and is about how to make
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  SPEAKER_01: the content better for AI.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you hear a lot of things.
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  SPEAKER_01: You hear if it's good for SEO, it's good for AI.
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  SPEAKER_01: No, you need to do schema.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, maybe not.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's gone really back and forth wildly over the last like six months.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is there a defined way to make content better for AI?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like what does that look like?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if it is good for SEO, then it's typically good for AI.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's a pretty good rule of thumb.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I like to take it a step further.
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  SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't have it be the end goal being good for SEO or good for AI.
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  SPEAKER_00: It should be good for your end user.
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  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day,
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  SPEAKER_00: both of those systems are going to bow to whatever the best information is
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  SPEAKER_00: for your prospective client or your prospective customer or whoever is trying to get
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  SPEAKER_00: the information.
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  SPEAKER_00: If you are answering questions that people have in a way That's a way
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  SPEAKER_00: that really gives them all the information they need to fully answer that question.
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  SPEAKER_00: And having enough information to truly analyze.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is something that we actually get a lot of questions about from,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: perspective writers that we're hiring is,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know, well, how do you assess what keywords to put in and where?
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  SPEAKER_00: And we actually take the exact opposite approach internally.
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  SPEAKER_00: We tell them,
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  SPEAKER_00: use your best judgment when it comes to writing like a human for a human
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  SPEAKER_00: and really just cover the topic in depth.
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  SPEAKER_00: And if you do that,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's going to naturally cover the keywords and That
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  SPEAKER_00: the search engine algorithms are going to be wanting to see,
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  SPEAKER_00: as well as writing with that intent that the AI LLMs are going to be wanting to use
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  SPEAKER_00: to judge.
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  SPEAKER_01: Backing up a little bit when you think about intent,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: somebody,
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  SPEAKER_01: I've been in a car accident,
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  SPEAKER_01: they're not necessarily thinking I'm thinking, who's the closest lawyer near me?
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  SPEAKER_01: Who's going to be really good for my case?
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  SPEAKER_01: Google thinks that way, but the person doesn't think that way.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it makes sense why Google thinks in proximity in terms of that, why that's important.
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  SPEAKER_01: But the individual and their And so I've often wondered,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's like, who,
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  SPEAKER_01: person-wise,
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  SPEAKER_01: is coming to a law firm and saying,
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  SPEAKER_01: damn, they don't have a personal injury, Gretna, car accident page.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not going to hire them.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: No.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've never evaluated a business based on where it was located.
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  SPEAKER_01: The other information like, could they help?
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  SPEAKER_01: Do they want to help?
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  SPEAKER_01: Can I afford them?
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  SPEAKER_01: That's the questions I'm asking and really law firms traditionally don't want to answer those.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you just have to understand again,
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  SPEAKER_00: like you said, Yeah, I think that's a great question.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then
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  SPEAKER_00: they typically go through the questions that somebody would logically have,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is, okay, well, how much is this case actually going to be worth to me?
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  SPEAKER_00: And is this worth my time?
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  SPEAKER_00: And then how much does this lawyer cost?
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  SPEAKER_00: Do they give a free consultation?
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  SPEAKER_00: And kind of answer the natural flow of questions that somebody might be thinking
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  SPEAKER_00: through as they're evaluating even whether or not to hire an attorney.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  SPEAKER_00: both if that prospective client has landed on the page organically,
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  SPEAKER_00: as well as if the LLMs are trying to pull that information,
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  SPEAKER_00: you want to make sure that it's readily available and easily digestible for
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  SPEAKER_00: the end user.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm taking us a little bit off SEO and AI search because I am curious
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  SPEAKER_01: because you also have a podcast.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we didn't coordinate this like is like, oh, I'm gonna help you plug your podcast.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm just curious,
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  SPEAKER_01: tell me about how you do shows where your guests are,
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  SPEAKER_01: because I've been doing this one for a while.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just really curious how other people are, doing their shows.
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  SPEAKER_00: How are we going?
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  SPEAKER_00: So I started the Personal Injury Marketing Minute podcast about three or four years ago.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we just really, this past year, started taking it really seriously.
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  SPEAKER_00: Whereas in the past, it was like, ah, you know, I'll have a guest here.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'll have a guest there.
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  SPEAKER_00: And on the show,
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  SPEAKER_00: I interview attorneys who are doing something unique in their market,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: or I interview legal service providers who have a cool offering that isn't the same
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  SPEAKER_00: So I pull in guests who have something interesting and relevant to say
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  SPEAKER_00: to personal injury lawyers.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I actually hired a production company this year called Legal Podcasts.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And they've done a fabulous job helping me in terms of the backend and the production.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so that's been a really great resource so that I can have
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: a regular cadence getting the podcast pushed out on a weekly basis.
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  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's essentially how I do it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then I have an executive assistant who goes out and finds really great guests for me.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then I do a pre-call to screen them, make sure that they're a good fit.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then we record and the episode airs like six weeks later.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's great fun.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's, I mean, the same kind of guests more or less.
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  SPEAKER_01: How often are you recording episodes?
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  SPEAKER_00: I record a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I would say that I record a couple of episodes a week, but they get pushed out every week.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I've got,
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: six to eight weeks of episodes recorded that are ready to go down the line.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: And how long are you doing your episodes?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing, I mean, you're doing, that's a lot.
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  SPEAKER_01: I cut mine back to where we're just doing,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: and this is meta analysis for anyone actually listening.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're just doing episodes every other week now after reaching 100 episodes,
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: but you're doing two or three a week.
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  SPEAKER_01: How do you keep that up?
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's, it's a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: I feel like so much of my job has actually become,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know, recording podcast episodes, which is fun.
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  SPEAKER_00: And fortunately having the right Podcast producer,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: and this is,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: no formal plug for them,
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  SPEAKER_00: but having the right person to take that off your plate on the back end to push
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  SPEAKER_00: the podcast live and do all the technical gobbledygook and chopping it up
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  SPEAKER_00: into segments makes my life so much easier so I can just show up.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the extrovert of the company, so I need to be able to go and talk to people.
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  SPEAKER_00: I definitely love producing the podcast.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's funny, when I started it two years ago,
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, the questions in my head were, are people going to listen?
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  SPEAKER_01: Do people care?
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  SPEAKER_01: Is it too niche, you know, personal injury marketing?
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  SPEAKER_01: That's what I talk about.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is it, am I going to be able to keep up, find guests?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: How do I prep content?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there are so many questions.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately,
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: When I decided to keep it simple,
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: have guests on, talk to them, that's the way to get it through.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And even these days, I'm even looking at doing a production company.
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  SPEAKER_01: I work with Legal Podcast Network.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm working with them on a podcast they're producing.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: They're great.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they do do a lot of the back office stuff.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, right now I'm using Upwork editors to cut the episode and then I upload it
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: to Substack to get clips.
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  SPEAKER_01: But so it's kind of, mine's a little bit more homespun, I think.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't get feedback about my show.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: I assume people like it.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: You would think so.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: They show up, they listen, you get a few numbers.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I do love about Legal Podcast Network is they send me all
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: the statistics and they show me here's how many people are listening
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: on Each individual platform and,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's like the warm fuzzies of,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh, people actually paid attention and saw my face.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like it's, you know, all of that is helpful to keep you motivated and keep you pushing forward.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: But really, we started the podcast for our own SEO efforts.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so it actually didn't really like, it doesn't sound terrible.
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  SPEAKER_00: It didn't really matter if anybody was listening or not.
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  SPEAKER_00: So if our guests are excited about the show,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: and they are willing to,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: put a link on their website that says, Hey,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: check out my podcast episode with Lindsay,
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: then for our own SEO, that helps us to show up in the rankings better.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so So, and the same strategy holds true with going on other podcasts.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, your listeners are thinking about, well, how can I help boost my own SEO?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Host your own podcast or go on other podcasts.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really great for your website.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's really great for your branding and your digital presence.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: So right now it's a little meta,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: to be talking about it while we're talking about it,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: but go do this, do what we're doing right now.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think the meta conversations
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  SPEAKER_00: is fun.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, it really doesn't matter that, well, like you said, like, will anyone listen to it?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't matter.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: even if nobody did listen to this particular episode or any other episode I did,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: that's still a 30 to 45 minute video of me talking about legal marketing.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if one person watched that and thought like,
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: oh, she actually does know what she's talking about.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to schedule a consult.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was worth my time.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: It was straight up worth my time and worth what it was spent producing it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's so funny.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: I never,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: I always knew that if you invited guests onto your podcast and made an episode
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: with them, posted it on the website.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Talked about them,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: made it about them,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: that sometimes you would just naturally get a backlink from that person.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like I discovered that accidentally on the very first podcast I was helping
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: a business kind of promote is like we made a page for each episode.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about the guest and that guest linked to our website and I was like,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: oh my gosh, maybe this is a thing.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And turns out it is like a lot of people kind of discovered that independently
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: and it's a strategy, but I never thought about going on other people's shows.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a great idea.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: You'll naturally get a link to it's the easiest way to get links.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: they're great links,
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: especially if I'm talking to other marketing professionals like yourself.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's contextually relevant for us.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's mutually beneficial.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Plus, I get to go out and meet great people like you.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Every time I like chat GBT myself, it's like, who are the best fractional CMOs in the personal?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always disappointed.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: I have never mentioned that.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe one day, maybe one day these podcasts.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: You'll be there.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: You'll be there.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: I got to clear my memories.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe it knows not to recommend me.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Are you guys primarily, you do SEO and you do the podcast.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any other parts of the company or services that you provide outside of that?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Are you really focused?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we're really focused.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, when I talk about SEO, I'm talking about it kind of as an umbrella statement.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: So when I talk about SEO,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: it's not just the technical backlink development and, you know, site power.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: We have an in-house web developer who creates all the websites for our clients.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: We do the content development for the page content for all of our client sites.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then we also do the backlink strategy and help the website gain power and credibility.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Beyond the on-site SEO, we also help with Google Business Profile Management.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: We also help out with the paper call advertising.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: So the LSA platforms,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: there's a lot less that is,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: is intensive about that now that they've taken away any dispute ability,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: but pretty much anything that
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: That is Google search results related.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: We have a hand in that other than the PPC ads.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then beyond that,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: now with AI being even more important,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: we help develop strategies and solutions for our law firms to show up
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: and be eligible to show up,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: is I guess how I like to say it, for the AI search results.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's going to look like having them on our show and making sure
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: that we're producing some video content that's going to help them Stand out
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: in their markets and help expand their branding efforts as well
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: as give them some other ideas for how they can even more so expand their branding
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: to be eligible to show up in the AIs.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm sitting here wondering if I should have just titled my podcast Sharp Cookie.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just got its own name and now I'm worried about that.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want you to spill your secret sauce because like
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: with AI search strategies,
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: everyone's kind of trying to figure out like what works,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: trying to figure out the hack.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just going to quiz you on some of the things that I have heard
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: that have been effective strategies and you tell me like,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: give me like a, that's still good or that's like bunk.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: So schema markup.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Total bunk.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Total bunk.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: I thought so.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Cause like, yeah, I would try to read it.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: But like, why is that?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, what about directories?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And this is kind of multi layered.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: I tell my clients, if you want to get a sponsored listing, you can get a sponsored listing.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: But what's most important is make sure those profiles are accurate.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Your name, address, you know, just like regular internet directories, we know the game.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Is that still a good tactic?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and it depends on the directory itself.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: So for attorneys,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: AVO and Justia are definitely still worth getting directory listings in,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: making sure that,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: as you said,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: that the listing information is consistent across your Thank you so much.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Reviews are so important.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: I want to like when you own a small business and you get into SEO,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think it kind of shifts your mindset and you forget that like real people do care
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: about reviews and read reviews.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that might be the only dang thing they look at before they call you.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so these days,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: when I think about it,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: I get more surprised when I think about all of the law firms who do not take that
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: as seriously as they take.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Checking local service ads each day, small little hacks to try to improve our rankings.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, just get more reviews, man.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the thing.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Get the reviews.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: You will not get ahead.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: You will not be first if you do not get reviews.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Bottom line.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't want to belabor that one to stay on topic.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So schema markup is a no-go.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Legal directories, that's still a thing.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: What about like Reddit?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've advised clients like create like a branded Reddit account,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: comment on local boards, build up content.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I tell people.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Just super basics.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Don't try to force in links.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, don't even try to post.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just work on your karma and be locally relevant.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's still good.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, Google and Reddit have teamed up a little bit more.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And there are some people that you could hire to go and speak well of your firm.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you are caught doing that, that's bad.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do that.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Talk up your firm and recommend you,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: especially if they have seasoned Reddit accounts that have been around forever
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: and have not been flagged.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: But the worst thing you can do when it comes to Reddit is start a new account
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: and go spam everybody saying, hey, check out Joe Schmoe Law Firm.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do that or else that that'll lead to really bad results for you.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I have a very old and very karma rich Reddit profile,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: but I cannot use it because that's where I used to post my fan fiction.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I have so much effort.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so like, I cannot use that for any business reason ever.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Unless I clean it and I don't even want to do that.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just sitting on a goldmine.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: I know it.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: So Reddit's still on the table and I'm assuming other websites
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: with user generated content like LinkedIn.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like LinkedIn.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Especially LinkedIn for professionals.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: So for law firms,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: if you are developing unique articles,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: thought leadership articles,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: things that are relevant to the industry,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: you're Getting people to engage with that and comment on it and to position yourself
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: as a subject matter expert.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: The more that you can do to that end, the better.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: What's tragic is as I stopped posting as an expert on LinkedIn
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: and just started posting memes because people seem to like that more.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so how do I cross?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: People love those memes.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: They do.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Memes are great.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're understanding user intent across social media.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's what's important.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: That reminded me of something I wanted to say.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: The communities on these platforms are so different.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Reddit is wildly different than LinkedIn.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: You can't go to Reddit and act like you do on LinkedIn and anyone care about it.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's just so different.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And you really have to...
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: I even kind of cringe at like the idea of like a social media manager
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: because there are people who are really good at Facebook.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: There are people who are really good at Instagram.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: There are people who are really good at LinkedIn and all across the board.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: And some people are probably pretty good at a handful, but there's not really...
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel like there's like one person who's mastered all these platforms.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that should be the goal either.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you have a take on that.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, I agree.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the more you can niche down and become a subject matter expert
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: in something, the more powerful you are, the more valuable you are.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, similarly, I cringe when somebody's like, I'm a marketer.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, for whom and what kind of marketing?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, I do everything for everyone.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, wow, you probably suck.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's probably not true for everybody,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: but it is really difficult to do a,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know, it's the, you know, jack of all trades, master of none.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the same is true, absolutely, for social media.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that, you know, I do, I'm on Facebook.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: I would never purport to be a Facebook expert.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even think I have an Instagram.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I say I'm in marketing,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: it does not necessarily mean that I am good at anything other than SEO.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've never been good
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: at Facebook.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good at LinkedIn.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good at other platforms, but like Facebook.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm terrible at LinkedIn.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have other people post for me and I get like four likes.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm doing it wrong.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm doing it wrong.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Facebook, I can get like 30 likes on my kids' baby pictures.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, yeah.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's what people show up for, you know, to fight about politics and to look at cute babies.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's if you can do that, that's Facebook.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like posting my kids because I take no issue with it.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: But like my daughter's 16 and one, she just doesn't want me to post her pictures.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then with the younger one, I'm sometimes I'm like, should I post them?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't know.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then I keep all mine to private.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: So like,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: it's more for me so that I can go back 10 years from now and be like,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: oh, they were cute.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I with my daughter.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, I see her baby pictures on Facebook all the time.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's nice.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: It honestly is.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Every time I take a photo with her, she's like, you can't use that.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saving it for when I'm old and have dementia
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: and don't remember what she looked like as a teenager, I guess.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm taking all these pictures.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a five thing.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: My four is about to be five in a week and she is just straight up princess
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: and like will Elsa it up with the tiara and the gloves and then she plays the drums.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so she'll show up to her drum lessons dressed to the night.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I want to be her when I grow up.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, but she's, she's definitely a character to try to parent.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: They really come with their own personalities.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was arguing with my daughter about this because she was, it's all nurture.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like your personality develops.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, is it though?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: When you have a kid,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: you really see it because pretty much from the cradle, they're so different.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's weird,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and my two girls are polar opposites.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, just absolutely, completely different.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: One is princess girly girl.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: The other is like very.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, both my kids look like my husband.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: You would not know either my kids or my kids, I swear.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: But my daughter looks and acts like my husband.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: My son looks like my husband, but he acts like me.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so cute.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think one day he came in my room and just started telling me about a TV show
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: that he was watching and did not stop talking about it for 30 minutes,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: which is precisely what I did as a kid.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, man, I see why my mom was pissed off all the time.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: He was exactly like me in character, but looks like his dad.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so funny.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's just so funny how that turned out.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: We got off AI search and started talking about kids.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: We did, but these are the important conversations to have.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sometimes it happens like that.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're coming up a little bit on time.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to think if I have any other AI search questions, and I do.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is such an emerging marketplace, and it's so fun.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's so fun to be on the edge of an emerging market.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's Whatever you want to call it.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's so neat.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I appreciate you sharing the information you did about AI search and all that
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: and everything that goes into it.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we're really aligned on thinking about this.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's important for people listening.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: I know that we covered a lot of basics.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much more that goes into marketing and different marketing techniques.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: we'll shamelessly plug is a book that I just published this year,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: which is how personal injury lawyers get leads, what works, what doesn't and why.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it goes through,
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think, like,
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, 50,
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: 60 plus marketing strategies that I've seen and talked to and implemented
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: with personal injury attorneys over the years and some with really great results.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: There are a handful of horror stories in there, but definitely check them out.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'll pick up a copy and just straight up steal your ideas.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: I won't even lie about that.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'll need that.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it's there for.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and where do you want people to look you up?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: You can reach out to me at Lindsay at OptimizeMyFirm.com.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: LinkedIn,
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: which I've already admitted to being terrible at,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know, go ahead and connect with me there.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: I will eventually get around to accepting your requests.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: So wherever you're
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: listening to this one, go and find mine and subscribe to that.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely sign up for hers if you're signed up for mine.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you so much for being on the show.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks everyone for listening.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Love talking about AI search.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: I hope everyone else loved listening to it.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see y'all next time.