Latest / The Soap Box Podcast / Why the words you choose really matter, with Ettie Bailey-King

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Why the words you choose really matter, with Ettie Bailey-King · The Soap Box Podcast

1:18
Today's guest, Etti Bailey King is an inclusive and accessible communication educator who's on a mission to change the way we think about language.
1:27
And you know me, I love a little ramble rabbit hole into the way we use the words that we use every day.
1:37
she explains how the tiniest word choices can shape how we see people's intelligence, authority, or even their right to be taken seriously.
1:44
And as we talk, she challenges the myth that accessibility, it's some technical expensive add-on that you have to pull in a whole bunch of consultants and a whole new computer package for when in reality, some of the most powerful changes that we can make are simple, free, and available to everyone.
2:04
We get into the misconceptions around inclusive language, the fear of getting it wrong, that I know we've all felt from time to time, and the trap of thinking that there's one perfect way to do things.
2:16
And Etti also takes us into her soapbox topic, professionalism in how it's so often used to police emotions, stifle, individuality, and to keep systemic inequalities in place.
2:29
If you've ever worried about saying the wrong thing.
2:31
Or wondered what inclusive, accessible communication really looks like in practice when you're running your own business particularly then this conversation will give you practical tools and you'll get to enjoy a healthy rental too.
2:44
So grab your notebook, get ready to work on the way that you speak, and listen to et get on her soapbox
2:55
Peta: Et it's really, really lovely to have you on the podcast.
2:57
Peta: I'm very excited to talk about, the topic that we're gonna touch on.
3:01
Ettie: Me too.
3:02
Ettie: Thank you so much for having me.
3:03
Ettie: I'm really happy to be here today.
3:05
Peta: That's all we like.
3:06
Peta: Cool.
3:07
Peta: Okay.
3:07
Peta: So for people who have not come across you on LinkedIn or in real life,'cause those obviously the only places that we live right now, um, can you tell them a little bit about who you are, what you do, and how you got here?
3:19
Ettie: Absolutely.
3:20
Ettie: So I am et.
3:22
Ettie: I'm an inclusive and accessible communication educator.
3:25
Ettie: What does that mean?
3:26
Ettie: So there's two parts to it.
3:28
Ettie: On the inclusive language side, it's all built on research, which finds that the specific words we use to talk about anything and everything shape the way we think about those issues, identities, the behaviors we.
3:41
Ettie: Put into the world the policies we support, how we view people, whether we think people are intelligent or they have authority or executive presence and so on.
3:51
Ettie: And so tiny differences in our words can massively shift real world outcomes.
3:57
Ettie: And inclusive language looks like a lot of different things, but in my work, it often looks like training workshops and coaching and group programs, teaching people to understand the principles of using language in a really specific and accurate way to help make the world more equitable.
4:14
Ettie: So in a sort of.
4:14
Ettie: Conversations context at work.
4:16
Ettie: It could look like learning how to give really inclusive feedback so that you can give someone feedback on their amazing work without bringing in weird stereotypes or like unnecessary, unhelpful assumptions.
4:28
Ettie: When we do that, um, in a copy and content and marketing context, Inclusive language can look like learning how to speak about age, gender, disability, race, sexual orientation, and so on.
4:40
Ettie: In a way that just genuinely includes everybody describes the full range of human experiences.
4:46
Ettie: Again, doesn't make weird assumptions about our reader and how they experience the world and just resonates.
4:52
Ettie: With people more and connects with them more closely.
4:55
Ettie: So that's on the inclusive language side.
4:57
Ettie: And then on the accessibility side, accessible communication is communicating in any way that works better for disabled, neurodivergent, tired and distracted people and.
5:08
Ettie: And at its core, so whether you are trying to write emails that work better for ADHDers or autistic people, or you're trying to make your web content work better for blind people or deaf people, or you like me, and probably all of us are at.
5:23
Ettie: Tired human being like trying to spin so many plates.
5:26
Ettie: Just try to get through the day, and you have a lot of things competing for your attention, and so you don't perfectly read every single word in an email, and you therefore need the communication that comes your way to be extremely concise, specific.
5:41
Ettie: Concrete, impossible to misunderstand.
5:44
Ettie: You know, all, all of those good things accessible communication can look like.
5:48
Ettie: Just learning to say what we mean and say it briefly and say it clearly, it can also look like, you know, sometimes it can get a little bit technical, some of the web stuff, particularly around making your content work better for blind and deaf people.
6:01
Ettie: There are some little aspects of it.
6:03
Ettie: There are, yeah, there are a tiny bit technical, but I do find, I will get into this in my soapbox that there is a massive misconception that you need a ton of technical training or understanding to do this.
6:13
Ettie: You absolutely don't.
6:15
Ettie: Everyone has the capacity to be an extremely accessible communicator.
6:18
Ettie: People think that it's expensive or takes loads of time.
6:21
Ettie: Nope.
6:22
Ettie: It's simple.
6:23
Ettie: It's quick, and almost everything you can do to make your content and your communication more accessible is free.
6:29
Ettie: So yeah, those are the two pieces of my work.
6:31
Ettie: Inclusive language and accessibility.
6:33
Ettie: And the way that I sort of, uh, deliver that work, it just varies completely depending on who I'm working with.
6:39
Ettie: So it might look like workshops and training sessions.
6:42
Ettie: I run a group program called Bold Type, which is a really.
6:45
Ettie: Gorgeous 12 week program where a whole bunch of different communicators get together and every week for 12 weeks we learn about different aspects of inclusive language and accessibility.
6:55
Ettie: Uh, and it also looks like, you know, I would say that the content that I create, like my LinkedIn and my newsletter, is also part of how I do my work.
7:02
Ettie: I know a lot of business owners see that as kind of like.
7:05
Ettie: You just have to do that to market yourself, and it's like just the price we pay to get seen in the world.
7:10
Ettie: But for me, because my work is about making communication and content work better for everyone, basically every time I write a newsletter, I feel I am doing my mission.
7:19
Ettie: I am putting inclusive language and accessible communication, hopefully out into the world and making it simpler for people to understand and follow.
7:27
Peta: I would imagine that makes it much easier to write the newsletter rather than seeing it as something that you have to do the price that you pay.
7:34
Ettie: Yeah, exactly.
7:35
Ettie: Well, having said that, you know, maybe it kind of flips the scales and then I'm like, oh no, my life's work and my mission depend on this newsletter, so I'm very capable of spinning it the other way and using it as a source of procrastination.
7:48
Ettie: But in terms of the deep value and the impact, yeah, for sure.
7:52
Peta: That's very cool.
7:53
Peta: Okay.
7:53
Peta: Well thank you for laying that out so incredibly clearly.
7:56
Peta: I think this is a topic that, a lot of my listeners find challenging to navigate.
8:02
Peta: so I'm, yeah, and I'm really glad that, um, I'm really glad that people like you and programs like Bold type exist.
8:08
Peta: Um, when I invite guests on this podcast.
8:12
Peta: Because of the name.
8:14
Peta: Uh, we talk about the thing that makes them really all riled up, the thing that they get up on their soapbox and, rant about.
8:22
Peta: Um, I think sometimes ranting is a bit of a dirty word, but I think, yeah, it's, it's nice to have a good, healthy rant.
8:27
Peta: So essentially that's what this podcast enables people to do.
8:30
Peta: Um, so Etti, what is your soapbox that you would like to come and rant about today?
8:36
Ettie: So I, let's reclaim rant.
8:38
Ettie: Yeah.
8:38
Ettie: I think the criticisms of rant feel very gendered, maybe very, you know, that it's intended to dismiss and trivialize the idea of some people's anger or frustration, and it's like.
8:50
Ettie: Who feels anger and frustration with the way the world works right now, people who experience systemic oppression.
8:55
Ettie: So yeah, we are gonna be a touch irritated about the ways that sexism and ableism and racism and so on shape our experiences of the world.
9:03
Ettie: So yeah, let's, let's reclaim that rant.
9:05
Ettie: Um, I'm very excited to get into my rant today, and it's all about the misconception that inclusive language and accessible communication.
9:14
Ettie: Is only for some people that it is technical, complex academic, that you need like a PhD in gender studies to even begin to write a, an inclusive paragraph talking about something.
9:27
Ettie: It's really linked in with these ideas of like, oh, you can't say anything these days.
9:32
Ettie: Spoiler.
9:33
Ettie: You absolutely can, but.
9:34
Ettie: You know there will be consequences.
9:36
Ettie: People will have feedback for you.
9:37
Ettie: If you say something really harmful, they might gently and kindly correct you.
9:41
Ettie: So is this idea of inclusive language being like this niche, difficult academic topic that's impossible to do, and one that has right and wrong rules, and we'll get into that.
9:52
Ettie: But there is no right way of being inclusive.
9:55
Ettie: There are infinite possible ways of being inclusive.
9:58
Ettie: Inaccessibility.
9:58
Ettie: Obviously there are.
10:00
Ettie: Uh, there's something more like best practice.
10:02
Ettie: You know, there are certainly ways in which you can just build a website and it's highly inaccessible, and that is wrong in that sense, but there's still tons of different ways that you can be accessible.
10:12
Ettie: So my soapbox is all around this idea of like people presenting inclusion and accessibility as a niche practice that only some people can access.
10:22
Peta: Very cool.
10:23
Peta: Yes.
10:24
Peta: And also very relevant to everything that's going on in Yeah.
10:27
Peta: Social discourse today, I think.
10:30
Peta: How did this become your thing, your soapbox?
10:35
Ettie: I can get started with my earliest experiences of communication.
10:39
Ettie: So from earliest childhood.
10:42
Ettie: I remember being constantly aware of this.
10:45
Ettie: Friction between how I understood the world and how people wanted me to understand things I.
10:52
Ettie: Remember, like all my earliest memories are being like in nursery and primary school and asking genuine questions to understand from the teacher and being criticized for being like difficult or obstructive or like willfully misunderstanding stuff when I was just genuinely like, oh, I, I dunno what you mean.
11:12
Ettie: What are we doing?
11:14
Ettie: And because I was someone who didn't always understand what was being said to me, and I think there was a lot there that was to do with like my neurodivergence, which I wasn't aware of at that point.
11:24
Ettie: I'm a super literal thinker.
11:26
Ettie: I take people's words really, really literally.
11:29
Ettie: and people sometimes think that I'm being passive aggressive or sarcastic when I say, oh, I didn't understand what you said there.
11:35
Ettie: Could you explain it?
11:36
Ettie: And I think that's just run through so many of my life experiences that it meant that every time I opened my mouth to speak or go to write something or like.
11:46
Ettie: Do anything with a gesture or body language.
11:48
Ettie: I'm always thinking, how is this gonna be received?
11:51
Ettie: And that's probably gonna resonate with some people who are listening to this, who are thinking, yeah, I have to think about how my words and actions are received all the time because of discrimination.
12:02
Ettie: Because the way that we are seen as unprofessional or unlikeable, or too much or too little, you know?
12:08
Ettie: There's so many other factors at play, and a lot of that I think is to do with sexism, racism, ableism, and lots of other isms.
12:16
Ettie: Um, but it's just meant that sort of running through the core of my life has been this challenge around communication, where I've been pouring so much active energy into it all the time.
12:25
Ettie: And I was in my thirties before I realized that not everyone feels this enormous degree of stress about every little interaction they're in.
12:33
Ettie: Not everyone.
12:35
Ettie: Apparently is frantically trying to figure out how their words will be received and what might happen as a result of it.
12:42
Ettie: So I'm actually really grateful for a lot of that challenge because it helped me become someone who's really deeply thoughtful about my words and.
12:51
Ettie: Who has a lot of empathy and always thinks about how things are gonna land with the other person.
12:55
Ettie: Uh, it also would've been nice if I hadn't had to be constantly thinking and overthinking and second guessing and third guessing, but it's yeah, led me to become someone who's deeply interested in what communication is and how it works and the impact that it has on all of our lives.
13:11
Peta: Yeah, that's very true.
13:13
Peta: Um, I think that, especially, especially when we were growing up, I think you're a little bit younger than me.
13:20
Peta: Um, but yeah, I think that there wasn't really.
13:24
Peta: The space to question, and it was seen as a little bit more of back chat rather than No, this, like, this is my honest question that I have and please could you answer it?
13:33
Peta: I'm not trying to be funny.
13:35
Peta: So yeah,
13:36
Ettie: Totally.
13:37
Peta: um, so why do you think.
13:40
Peta: It is so important, for example, for the audience that we're talking to now, so business owners, um, running a business online or in real life, why is it so important then for them to consider this as part of either their marketing or, the communication that they put out into the world?
14:00
Ettie: So I think that inclusive language and accessible communication are at their most basic.
14:06
Ettie: Just communicating effectively if I speak inclusively, and don't assume that everyone in my audience, let's say I have a wedding related business, and I don't assume that everyone who's getting married is a husband and a wife.
14:21
Ettie: Like just to pick one example, they could.
14:25
Ettie: Both be husbands, both be wives, they could be partners, they could be two non-binary or gender queer people who don't want any of those gendered labels.
14:34
Ettie: And there's just ways that we can talk about weddings and what it means to get married, but don't have to play into that like one single way of being.
14:41
Ettie: So I would see that actually.
14:44
Ettie: Not even as an inclusive language issue, but more about like how are we speaking to and resonating with the real people that are out there in the world?
14:53
Ettie: I think it's about deep consideration for an understanding of who the people you work with are, and not in the sense that you need to know every little thing that's going on in people's lives.
15:03
Ettie: Um, a key aspect of accessibility is actually you don't need to know whether I'm autistic or A DHD or blind or deaf, so long as you are following all the simple, clear things that make that content better.
15:16
Ettie: If you write short, simple sentences, short paragraphs, you've got some meaningful subheadings and you format it all properly, it's gonna work well for almost everyone with very, very few exceptions.
15:27
Ettie: And so when you make your communication inclusive and accessible, you're just making it work better.
15:32
Ettie: Like an accessible video or an accessible website, in my opinion, is just a functional one.
15:38
Ettie: If you've got a video and it's got no captions, your video is incomplete.
15:43
Ettie: If you've got, what's another example?
15:46
Ettie: If you've got images on your website and no alt text or image descriptions.
15:50
Ettie: They are incomplete, they're not working because not everyone's gonna be able to access that.
15:55
Ettie: And I say that not to like pile on another set of commandments and like items on people's to-do list.
16:01
Ettie: Like don't worry, this stuff is actually really simple and straightforward when you get into it.
16:05
Ettie: But if it's not working for everyone to the best of our.
16:09
Ettie: Abilities, then I would say it's just not working.
16:11
Ettie: And whether you are motivated by making your marketing copy resonate more with your audience.
16:16
Ettie: 'cause you wanna drive sales or you're motivated from a social justice perspective, it's just about making things work better for everyone.
16:23
Peta: Mm.
16:24
Peta: Yeah, that makes sense.
16:26
Peta: What do you, and I'm sure you come across people like this all the time in your work, or when you're talking online, what do you say to people who are just like, this is all too hard, this is all too complicated.
16:39
Peta: I already have enough to deal with, and now there are that whole set of rules that I need to think about.
16:45
Peta: how do you, obviously you could, it's quite easy to go well.
16:49
Peta: You're wrong.
16:50
Peta: It's really easy, which is what you've talked about.
16:52
Peta: But how do you talk to them about that kind of concern that they have?
16:59
Ettie: I feel this.
16:59
Ettie: I feel this in my bones as a very tired and overwhelmed person.
17:03
Ettie: Like, yeah, life is really full and busy.
17:06
Ettie: And I certainly don't get through more than about 6% of my to-do list on a good day, on a very good day.
17:14
Ettie: And I really know that feeling of like, oh, you're telling me I have to add a whole additional set of considerations that I didn't know about.
17:22
Ettie: So maximum compassion for that.
17:25
Ettie: But I would invite people to get really curious about that because firstly, once you know the things.
17:33
Ettie: And I'll just say a few of the things that you can do to become more inclusive and accurate.
17:38
Ettie: So on the inclusive language side, I would say it is being specific.
17:43
Ettie: Make sure you're not making massive sweeping generalizations about people.
17:46
Ettie: Assuming that everyone exists in the world the same way that you do, uh, be accurate.
17:52
Ettie: Just make sure that what you say is accurate and is informed by relevant people's perspectives.
17:57
Ettie: Use the terms that people want.
18:00
Ettie: Used about them.
18:01
Ettie: Get people to self-identify or quote or describe themselves if you possibly can.
18:06
Ettie: Um, always, yeah, check in on that if you possibly can.
18:10
Ettie: Um, and just be aware of the impact of your words.
18:13
Ettie: And that can look like understanding some of the nuanced and complex stuff, like for example, okay, what's quite a nuanced example If we say girls and boys are equally as good as each other at maths.
18:26
Ettie: Research finds that most people take away from that the idea that girls and boys are equally good at maths.
18:32
Ettie: If we say girls are as good as boys at maths, that has a different impact.
18:38
Ettie: And can, in some cases reinforce the idea that boys are naturally good and girls are inferior because we're saying, oh, no, no, no.
18:45
Ettie: They, they can meet the standard that is defined by being a boy.
18:48
Ettie: And even better, I think we would take binary gender out of that and just say like.
18:54
Ettie: Kids, young people, children, people.
18:57
Ettie: Everyone, or there are no gender, gender differences and who's good at maths.
19:01
Ettie: So that's an example of where it maybe gets more nuanced.
19:04
Ettie: And I'm not expecting everyone to know about practices like that.
19:07
Ettie: That's all to do with the idea that language has defaults built into it, and we can set some people up as a default or exceptional, you know, if we use.
19:16
Ettie: Diverse as a code word, which people sometimes do.
19:19
Ettie: They say, oh, we've got a diverse new team member, and they actually mean like, that team member is not white or not straight, and we're not really saying what we mean.
19:27
Ettie: Then I would invite you to just come back to that thing about being specific and accurate and say exactly what you mean.
19:33
Ettie: Um, so.
19:34
Ettie: I think partly if people are feeling overwhelmed and like there's too much to do in this world, they can come back to that very simple stuff on the inclusive language side and then on the accessibility side, they can just come back to short sentences.
19:47
Ettie: Everyday words, simple sentences, which grammatically means there's just like one main verb, like one clause, um, saying what we mean.
19:56
Ettie: So being quite literal and concrete.
19:59
Ettie: Uh, lots of blank space on the page.
20:01
Ettie: You know, I could go on, but it's really quite basic stuff.
20:03
Ettie: So if you are feeling a lot of resistance and fear and like, how can I possibly do this?
20:08
Ettie: I would just invite people to get really curious about that and think, is it that I can't possibly write short sentences?
20:14
Ettie: Well.
20:15
Ettie: I think you can, and I've got loads of practical tools that can help you, and I'll send those tools your way.
20:19
Ettie: You can use things like Hemingway, which is a brilliant free online visual editor that helps highlight long sentences.
20:26
Ettie: There's tools like, uh, tig, T-I-G-I-M has a tool called the Everyday Word Checker.
20:31
Ettie: You can pop in a word that you think might be a bit too long and technical and it'll tell you, is this every day or is it a bit obscure and technical?
20:38
Ettie: So.
20:38
Ettie: Come back to what works, come back to these concrete, simple, practical tools and maybe just notice where those concerns are coming from.
20:45
Ettie: Because I think when we dig into it, people say, oh, it's too much.
20:49
Ettie: I can't possibly, sometimes there's resistance to change and it can be because we don't wanna confront the fact that things aren't working for everyone.
20:58
Ettie: And it might be that you're just very tired and overwhelmed by.
21:02
Ettie: Hello.
21:03
Ettie: There are many of us, but it could also be that you are, you know, resistant to change because things are working well for you in the status quo.
21:10
Ettie: And I would really encourage people to get into that.
21:13
Ettie: If you are thinking maybe you are a white person and you're like, I don't wanna learn about anti-racist language, it's too much, it's too difficult.
21:20
Ettie: Well actually, like, get really curious about that resistance.
21:24
Ettie: Lean into it and think, no, this is an opportunity for me to become actively anti-racist and to like push for positive change.
21:32
Ettie: So, I would say if you're feeling overwhelmed, I get it.
21:36
Ettie: I hear you.
21:37
Ettie: But don't panic.
21:38
Ettie: The practical steps are very simple, and if that overwhelm is actually something else, if it's a form of resistance or fear, notice that and take action anyway.
21:48
Peta: No, I think that's pretty good advice.
21:50
Peta: I, using myself as an example, I massively value.
21:54
Peta: And have built my identity like hugely around being able to communicate really clearly and really effectively.
22:02
Peta: Um, and for me sometimes that, that extra step of going, oh, well, I can't say that because that is not inclusive language.
22:15
Peta: Or, um, I'm not sure if I can use this word or use this term or use this phrase or, that extra step.
22:24
Peta: My resistance to it was about a little bit of fear, like this thing that I really value, this ability to, to flow and to communicate freely and to, and not to have to think about it too much, like it's a natural kind of, or a skill that I've developed.
22:40
Peta: It was a fear that, that, that would be curtailed and I would no longer be as good as what I, at what I did.
22:46
Peta: Um, and therefore that has all like self-image.
22:50
Peta: Stuff attached to it.
22:53
Peta: Um, so I think there is that, yeah, there is that level of like fear and uncertainty.
22:58
Peta: I no longer have Sure footing here.
23:00
Peta: and that has a huge amount of implications for Yeah, where I've found my privilege and where I've, where I've kind of built my self image.
23:07
Peta: Um, so yeah, that's a really interesting, kind of idea to, to check where, yeah.
23:13
Peta: Where is that coming from?
23:15
Peta: What is, what is the reason that you, that you think it would be hard?
23:19
Ettie: Mm.
23:19
Ettie: I think that fear of getting it wrong as well is so deeply understandable, and part of it is actually very helpful.
23:26
Ettie: I think we should feel some degree of, maybe fear isn't the right word.
23:30
Ettie: We should, we should care about the impact that our words have.
23:34
Ettie: We should care whether we are going to possibly harm someone by making a massive, sweeping generalization or talking inaccurately about real people's lives, but.
23:44
Ettie: Can we take the care and the energy and the focus, which is about impact, and can we keep that attention where it belongs, which is an on impact.
23:53
Ettie: I think too often it gets diverted sort of like back into ourselves and us thinking people are gonna attack me, people are gonna hate me, people are gonna think I'm a bad person, and actually a really core.
24:04
Ettie: Principle of getting into inclusive communication is you realize it's not really about you.
24:09
Ettie: It's almost never about you actually.
24:11
Ettie: Um, and you're gonna make mistakes.
24:13
Ettie: So I say when you make a mistake, not if, and never say if it's always when, because like.
24:19
Ettie: We're humans.
24:20
Ettie: We say things we don't mean.
24:21
Ettie: I have said lots of things today that I didn't quite mean because I started a sentence and didn't know how I was gonna finish it.
24:28
Ettie: And I was like, oh, not that, not that word.
24:30
Ettie: And that's, that doesn't make me a bad person.
24:32
Ettie: That makes me a human being.
24:34
Ettie: And I've done that too when I'm talking about really important topics like racism and like.
24:41
Ettie: Discrimination around neurodivergence and homophobia and transphobia.
24:46
Ettie: And so if we're gonna talk, like speak up about important issues, we have to make our peace with the fact that you'll talk about something really important and you will say the wrong word, or you'll say not quite what you intended to express.
24:58
Ettie: And we've got to be okay with that.
25:00
Ettie: So for me, when I make that mistake, I acknowledge.
25:04
Ettie: Apologize and act.
25:06
Ettie: And by act I just mean move on.
25:08
Ettie: So acknowledge like mark it in some way.
25:11
Ettie: It could be as simple as, sorry, I said both genders and I meant to say all genders or something else like that.
25:18
Ettie: And then apologize if it's appropriate.
25:21
Ettie: So that would be more if you'd said something that.
25:24
Ettie: Perhaps had harmed someone.
25:25
Ettie: I think if you are just speaking or writing routinely and you just have more of like an oops, there's usually no need to apologize, but you just make a quick, sincere, simple apology and then act.
25:36
Ettie: And by that I just mean carry on as you were.
25:39
Ettie: Keep moving and keep practicing what works, which is saying what you mean.
25:43
Ettie: Trying to keep things simple and accurate because there's this perception that there are language rules and that someone is there with a rule book saying like, this term is out.
25:52
Ettie: Like you cannot say.
25:54
Ettie: People of color anymore, we're gonna put you in jail.
25:57
Ettie: If you say people of color.
25:58
Ettie: And actually the reality is that some people might say, well.
26:01
Ettie: We don't love that because as people who experience racism, we feel like that's just yet another generalization.
26:07
Ettie: Could you please be more specific?
26:09
Ettie: Can you say who you're talking about?
26:10
Ettie: If you're talking about black people, can you say black people or, we don't feel that's a very accurate term.
26:16
Ettie: And we might say, and here I do get into some of that slightly more academic language, because I do think racially minoritized is probably a bit more of an accurate term than people of color sometimes.
26:27
Ettie: But if people aren't gonna know what I'm saying.
26:29
Ettie: Then we come back to a core principle of accessibility, which is you've gotta use words that people like know what, what you mean by them.
26:37
Ettie: So I would take that principle of accuracy and I would combine it with being understood, and I'd just go over a term that my audience is gonna understand.
26:44
Ettie: So that's what I mean by there are no rules, there's just a set of interlocking principles and you can use them to find your way.
26:50
Ettie: But we've got to be able to get out of that mindset of thinking that we'll get in trouble if we say the wrong thing and really flip it and say like, you know, if we're not.
26:58
Ettie: If you're not saying the wrong thing, then are you saying anything in a relatively open and heartfelt way then?
27:08
Ettie: What's the point?
27:09
Ettie: I don't wanna speak in perfectly polished soundbites all the time because it'll mean that I'm guarding myself and not letting myself be vulnerable and open.
27:17
Ettie: So in another way, you're actually doing something really powerful for inclusive language.
27:21
Ettie: If you say, and I'm saying this in quote, marks the wrong thing, I don't think there really is a wrong thing because you are modeling that As humans, when we talk about important things like, you know, we might say something that we don't quite mean, and that's okay.
27:33
Ettie: We repair the harm and we move on.
27:35
Peta: Yeah, that's very true.
27:37
Peta: Talking about there being a set of, well, there not being a set of rules.
27:41
Peta: So this idea that everybody thinks that there is, there's one perfect way to talk about everything like that.
27:49
Peta: Someone somewhere has a book and they then, they're checking the book as they scroll through Instagram and they're going, no, you did that wrong.
27:56
Peta: Um, or Yes, tick, you're fine.
27:58
Peta: Um.
28:00
Peta: It really ties into what you told me your other soapbox was this idea of there being this perfect professional way of doing anything when you run a business.
28:11
Peta: and I'd really like to get into that a little bit.
28:13
Peta: Can you tell me a little bit about kind of your anti professionalist stance?
28:20
Ettie: Let's get into it.
28:21
Ettie: Oh.
28:22
Ettie: Professionalism.
28:23
Ettie: I think professionalism is an oppressive system and in my personal experience I have heard it used against people whenever they have the audacity to just have emotions to speak in the way that they speak because of who they are and you know, just to like have a body and have caring responsibilities.
28:43
Ettie: The way that professionalism has shown up in my life experience has really been around like.
28:48
Ettie: Corporate jargon being expected to speak in this way that is frankly impenetrable and incomprehensible.
28:54
Ettie: Like I just have been in meetings where I'm like, I don't understand what anyone is saying and I'm a reasonably intelligent person.
29:01
Ettie: And like, do we mean, do any of us know what we're saying?
29:04
Ettie: No, but I can't say that'cause that's unprofessional apparently.
29:08
Ettie: And I really see that professional standards seem to basically police people's emotions.
29:14
Ettie: Delegitimize anger.
29:15
Ettie: There's so much anger.
29:17
Ettie: There's actually a wonderful book called The Aptness of Anger by Armys River, Arsen, which is about the idea that like anger is an apt response to social injustice.
29:25
Ettie: As a Martin Luther gin quote, which I'll paraphrase, which is like, if you know anything about the world, you should be angry and yet.
29:33
Ettie: The idea that we show up to a zoom call in a world where there are literal genocides going on, and that we are meant to be these like polished, emotionless sort of, um, smooth objects who have 2.5 minutes of small talk.
29:48
Ettie: You know, the, the neurotypical neuron normative idea of small talk don't overshare, and then we move on and we don't let something pesky like.
29:57
Ettie: Police violence, you know, intrude on doing the good, profitable work.
30:01
Ettie: So I'm not saying that that's like actually what professionalism should mean.
30:05
Ettie: I think we can totally redefine it as just.
30:08
Ettie: Doing a great job, being really, really good at what you do.
30:11
Ettie: Practicing integrity, being ethical, like all of that for me is a totally appropriate part of professionalism.
30:18
Ettie: But I've basically seen professionalism get weaponized against people when they dare to show up.
30:24
Ettie: Um, and actually maybe thinking about clothing and hair is an interesting one because black people, and particularly black women, have their natural hair criticized and policed, and it's often called quote, unprofessional, and it's like.
30:38
Ettie: Hair is hair.
30:39
Ettie: I don't think you can say that someone's body is inherently unprofessional or if you say it, your racism is showing.
30:45
Ettie: And I'm really reminded there's a quote from Rebecca, West, where she said, I dunno what a feminist is, but I know that I get called a feminist when I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.
30:55
Ettie: And I feel that way about professionalism.
30:57
Ettie: I feel like I've been called unprofessional when I dare to.
31:02
Ettie: Be a human being in a body with opinions and feelings, and when I've shown up wearing like comfortable or colorful clothing, or I've dared to speak in the way that I as a young-ish, let's say young, I mean, it's generous.
31:15
Ettie: I, I, as a woman speak the fact that my tone is quite informal, that I will use like slang and words that make sense to me in my world.
31:25
Ettie: That has often been criticized and I've had people give me feedback and say, you know, you'll never get anywhere as a business owner if you relate to your clients in this way.
31:34
Ettie: And you try and like have a laugh with them.
31:36
Ettie: And I would just say, who is, who is holding that rule book?
31:41
Ettie: Again, we're coming back to this idea of one rule book.
31:44
Ettie: I also get a lot of inquiries because a part of my work is communication coaching.
31:49
Ettie: So I'll help people to improve their communication, either to become more inclusive and accessible, or sometimes just to build confidence.
31:56
Ettie: And we get loads of referrals from people's managers who basically say, my employee is unprofessional.
32:02
Ettie: Lacks authority.
32:04
Ettie: Lacks presence, lacks gravitas.
32:06
Ettie: And I know you're gonna guess.
32:08
Ettie: Actually, please Peter, take a guess.
32:10
Ettie: What do these employees have in common?
32:12
Peta: Probably all not men.
32:16
Ettie: Boom, that's it.
32:17
Ettie: Yes.
32:18
Ettie: I have never had a man sent to me for communication coaching for daring to speak in an informal way or for showing too much emotion or not enough emotion.
32:28
Ettie: That, again, is basically a form of discrimination against.
32:31
Ettie: Neurodivergent people.
32:32
Ettie: 'cause we're expect to show our emotions in very, very specific ways.
32:35
Ettie: So I'd just wrap it all in under this idea of there being one right way.
32:40
Ettie: There is no one right way to be professional, just like there's no one right way to be inclusive.
32:47
Peta: Yeah, no.
32:47
Peta: I think this idea that, yeah, emotions aren't allowed and that there is, yeah, there's certain languages.
32:54
Peta: I find it, I, I find it in several places.
32:56
Peta: One, when I'm working for kind of tech companies or SaaS companies, especially startups, they think that in order to be taken seriously, um, whatever that means, they need to, they need to speak in a certain way and they need to, like, their website needs to have certain colors in a certain layout.
33:15
Peta: There is that, there are those tick boxes for being a professional business.
33:20
Peta: Um.
33:21
Peta: And then, yeah.
33:22
Peta: And it's so frustrating because actually the thing that, the thing that improves their, in terms of what I work on, improves their conversions, improves their kind of sales, is always taking that jargon, taking that professional bit, um, and, and like sounding off the edges and making it more human, putting in more emotion, putting in, making it more relatable.
33:46
Peta: Um, but also I recently had a conversation with.
33:51
Peta: My mom and my sister-in-law who are kind of in their fifties and sixties, and they have a very different view on what is an acceptable attitude for somebody to have at work.
34:03
Peta: Um, and they were both complaining about younger employees who quote, didn't have a work ethic or, um, didn't understand expectations or, um, and it was all around.
34:17
Peta: Things that they think constitute being a professional, being an employee, um, being a good person like over, like doing more work than they should or not.
34:29
Peta: More so like doing overtime or showing up early or basically everything that involved your job being the center of your life.
34:37
Ettie: Hmm.
34:37
Peta: And I think we have such a different view.
34:39
Peta: Generations coming up have a different view on what.
34:43
Peta: What is important, um, and what we, what our boundaries are and, and what we value.
34:50
Peta: And I think being unprofessional becomes a wide umbrella term for like all of that stuff too.
34:58
Ettie: Totally.
35:00
Ettie: Yeah.
35:00
Ettie: So on this point about being taken seriously, I find this really fascinating'cause there's research into jargon and how jargon if you are on the inside, if you are in this little cabal that knows all the terms and all the acronyms, jargon literally feels good physically.
35:16
Ettie: It gives people a rush of belonging and paradoxically inclusion because it's a form of inclusion that comes from.
35:24
Ettie: Excluding other people, and it shows that you have earned your right to be there because you've done like 12,000 degrees or you've worked in finance for long enough that you are hardened and understand the terminology.
35:37
Ettie: And it is so threatening to that way of being when you say, okay, but why?
35:42
Ettie: When you just knock on that door and say, yeah, but we could just say this in a more simple way, and then you are.
35:49
Ettie: Brilliant business case.
35:50
Ettie: Whatever you do would also make sense to someone who is very tired, very distracted, uh, having perimenopause or menopause symptoms.
35:59
Ettie: Brain fog, someone who's on your website, on your phone.
36:03
Ettie: Outside, it's raining, they're walking.
36:06
Ettie: They've got a shopping bag in one hand, and that language could then be working for more and more people.
36:10
Ettie: But I do find it, for a lot of people, it brings up feelings of loss.
36:14
Ettie: They say, what do you mean?
36:15
Ettie: You wanna take this away from me?
36:17
Ettie: My hard earned jargon, but I built this.
36:20
Ettie: Through my decades of sweat in a professional environment, and actually sometimes there's a little bit of like trauma.
36:26
Ettie: It's that people have suffered through something that was really hard for them and they think, well, I had to, I had to give up my personal life to be here.
36:34
Ettie: So why are you allowed to not do that?
36:37
Ettie: I started my day, I started my job in 19 whatever, and my boss said to me on the first day, welcome to investment banking, the profession where you don't know your children, but you get to know your grandchildren.
36:49
Ettie: And like when they know people that have genuinely heard that, right?
36:54
Ettie: And that's shaped the whole way they've moved through that career.
36:57
Ettie: And then it's, it's incredibly threatening and challenging when a younger person or any person says.
37:02
Ettie: No, not for me.
37:03
Ettie: And also particularly because a lot of the terms of what worked for people made sense in a different world now.
37:10
Ettie: So many of the sort of like financial payoffs just don't apply.
37:13
Ettie: Like I don't think that pensions are gonna be working for many of us.
37:17
Ettie: Um, we don't have that sort of like future of financial stability ahead of us.
37:21
Ettie: And I think there's almost an upside to that, which it in a way can liberate some people to say absolutely not.
37:28
Ettie: I don't accept the terms of this contract.
37:30
Ettie: You want me to be professional?
37:32
Ettie: Well, this profession isn't supporting me to live a life that is truly livable and it's pushing me to a degree that I can't be pushed.
37:40
Ettie: So no thank you.
37:41
Ettie: I'm opting out.
37:43
Peta: Yeah.
37:43
Peta: No, that's very true.
37:44
Peta: I think especially the payoff thing, like the Yeah.
37:48
Peta: The deal was that if you did all those things that we are meant to do to be professional, then you, yeah.
37:53
Peta: You ended, ended your life with that financial stability.
37:58
Peta: Um, and, and
37:59
Ettie: a home that you own
38:01
Peta: Yeah.
38:01
Peta: And none of that exists anymore.
38:03
Peta: Yeah.
38:03
Peta: So we get none of the payoff.
38:05
Peta: Then why would we, then, why would we wanna live by those terms?
38:08
Peta: Um, especially for so long.
38:10
Peta: I think that's a really good point.
38:11
Peta: Hmm.
38:12
Peta: Interesting.
38:15
Peta: So I think there are a lot of people listening for whom, your services and, and courses would be incredibly value in terms of the communication and the marketing that they put out.
38:25
Peta: Especially like bold type sounds absolutely fabulous.
38:28
Peta: It might have to go on my, um, on my vision board at some point.
38:32
Peta: Um, but for, so for people who are interested in all the things that you do or who wanna come and find you and rant about professionalism, um, how can they do that?
38:42
Ettie: Yes, please come and rant.
38:44
Ettie: Um, The best place to find me is by signing up to my newsletter on substack.
38:49
Ettie: You can send me a message there on Substack.
38:51
Ettie: It's fighting talk.substack.com.
38:54
Ettie: That's Fighting talk.substack.com, and every week I share perspectives on inclusive language and accessibility.
39:01
Ettie: They're always deeply practical.
39:02
Ettie: There's always concrete tools, resources, tips that you can take away.
39:07
Ettie: Um, everything is free for the first week and then it goes behind a paywall afterwards, but I also offer free access to anyone who can't afford to pay no questions asked.
39:17
Ettie: So you can just send me a message there if you want access to that.
39:20
Ettie: You can also find me on LinkedIn.
39:22
Ettie: I'm et Bailey King and on Instagram et Bailey King there as well.
39:26
Ettie: There come, might be on Blue Sky as well.
39:29
Ettie: Maybe see if you find me there.
39:31
Peta: I'm still sussing out Blue sky.
39:33
Peta: I like, it takes me a while to fully invest in a new platform and kind of fit it into my routine of like checking and posting.
39:40
Peta: But I think, yeah, there's definitely, there's definitely gonna be interesting things happening on Blue Sky.
39:46
Peta: Cool.
39:46
Peta: Well, thank you ever so much.
39:48
Peta: This was brilliant, incredibly interesting.
39:50
Peta: Um, and a topic that I know is close to a lot of our listeners' hearts.
39:53
Peta: So thank you for communicating it so clearly.
39:56
Peta: Um, and it was a, yeah, it was lovely to speak to you.
39:59
Ettie: Thank you so much for having me on.
40:01
Ettie: This was such a pleasure.
40:02
Ettie: I loved getting to enjoy a rant with you and yeah.