Latest / 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before. / The Boy Behind the Laughter: A Suicide Prevention Awareness Month Conversation | Episode 41
Transcript
- Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Before we begin, today's episode includes an honest conversation about suicidal thoughts and a suicide attempt. Parts of this conversation may be difficult for some listeners, so please take care of yourself while listening. If you're struggling or having thoughts of suicide in the United States, call or text 988 to reach the suicide and crisis lifeline. If there's an immediate danger, call 911. Most people know me as someone who helps other people become stronger. I've Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Ha ha ha. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): spent more than 30 years coaching, encouraging, and reminding people not to give up on themselves. But there have been times in my own life when I struggled to believe those same words. For much of my childhood, I experienced what's called suicidal ideation. And today, I'm not sharing that as a coach who has everything figured out, because first of all, I don't. But today I'm sharing my story as someone who understands what it feels like when life becomes so heavy that you begin questioning whether you can continue carrying it. Maybe you've felt that way yourself. Maybe you love someone who has. Maybe you're listening because you want to understand something that has always been difficult to talk about. September is Suicide Prevention Awareness Month, And the global message is about changing the narrative on suicide. Changing that narrative begins by talking about it. So today, that's exactly what I'm going to do. Welcome to Rebuild and Fulfill, powered by Suffer to Tougher. I am Kelsey Dunbar and I'm here with my friend and co-host, Marc Rogala. Today's episode is different because I'm not approaching this subject only as a coach or mental health advocate. I'm approaching it as someone who has spent a large part of his childhood wondering whether or not he wanted to remain alive. Marc and I have both made the decision to speak openly about some of the most painful experiences of our lives. We believe that if our openness helps one person, It's worth it. And if it helps one person, why shouldn't we believe that it can help even more? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well, because this is your story, Kelsey, Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): And Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): I'm going to do more listening than talking today. We're not trying to force a lesson of every painful moment. We want to understand what that child was carrying, how it reached the point that it did, and what changed afterward. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Exactly. This is not about presenting a perfectly packaged recovery story. It's about telling the truth and hopefully making it easier for someone else to tell the truth too. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): So you've spoken about parts of your childhood before on this podcast, and I really appreciate your open, honest and sincerity there. Why did World Suicide Prevention Day make this feel like the right time to tell this part of the story? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. because this day is talking about and remembering the people that we've lost. You've lost people to to suicide, so have I. And it's also about reaching the people who are still here but maybe suffering quietly. It's about helping families and friends understand what might be happening beneath the surface. And it's about showing people that having suicidal thoughts does not make someone weak or selfish or broken or beyond help. So when we keep these experiences hidden, shame gets to control the story. When we talk about them honestly, we give someone else permission to say, Hey, I felt that way too. That doesn't solve everything, but it can be the beginning of Something, right? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah, for sure. So and I've known you for a long time. A long time, basically since high school. I don't think a lot of the audience realizes that, but When you look back now, where do you believe those feelings first began? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): If you would have asked me at different points in time of my life that question, I probably would have come up with a lot of different answers. I I think it probably started when I was a young child, maybe about four years old, when my father decided he was gonna leave. And I I remember the day. I remember him packing suitcases and and leaving. And it was, you know, I I don't want to say that my father and I were ever close even back then, but Obviously that's traumatic for any child. But I I think that's kind of when I started feeling like my circumstances were different than my friends. And I think out of my friends, I was the first one who ever had gone through a divorce. And so I I don't think that it really fully hit me then how difficult that was going to be for me, but I think that. Some of the stuff that I dealt with happened then. And I probably started to lash out at that point. And so I kind of approached it from that perspective of of lashing out and not really understanding the emotional toll. And that's continued on through grade school. And in about first or second grade, I started getting in a lot of trouble at school. And by the time I finished second grade, I was being sent to military school. And that's when I think it really kind of got amplified being in in that environment. But while I was in military school, my mother had already moved on with someone else and had already adopted a a partying lifestyle. And so when I was home, on weekends and for holidays and summer breaks and stuff like that. I was exposed to a lot more than I think that a a kid should have been. you know, but but children learn how to adapt because they have to. But adapting is not the same as feeling safe. You know sometimes adapting means, being quiet and just trying to read the room and trying to not create more problems. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): when you were living through it, did you recognize that something was wrong? Or did it simply feel like this was just the way life was at that particular time? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, that's that's a good question because when you're that young, you you don't really know that things are that different. And you want to feel like things are normal. You want to think that you have a normal childhood. So you kind of just roll with things. And I I guess that's where I come up a little blank on the at what point did you feel like things were were different or wrong or that you had these feelings that you were suppressing because At a young age, you're you're just trying to to go along to get along, right? Yeah, so that's just kind of how things were. But things got a lot worse. I would say before they got better, but they really didn't get better till I reached adulthood, honestly. But I was just kind of talking about the transition from public school to private school. And what made that even tougher is in between my first year of military school in third grade, which most people don't even realize that you can actually put kids in military school at that young of an age, or at least you could at the one that I went to. And it was a very difficult time. And because I no longer had friends in my general area when you were home on weekends, when you're home on breaks and home for the summer and you have no friends that live close by, your parents both work. You're kind of left to your own devices. And what I didn't realize at the time until I had long after already had established a weight problem was that I started eating my feelings is kind of what they call it now, I guess. And so I gained a lot of weight in a very short period of time. And there was no one home to cook healthy meals. So things like snacks and cereal and stuff like that was all that was really available. And so what was happening in my home life was only made worse by my weight increasing. And that became kind of the worst part of it really. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah. When did you first become aware that people Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, you can run into the mole. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): were judging you based off of your body shape and your weight? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, I actually can remember that pretty well. So my parents, and when I say parents, my mother and my stepfather, pretty much my father's no longer a part of my story at any point in time. He was gone. So when I say my parents, I'll be referring to my mother and my stepfather. And before I went into military school, they wanted to kind of get me acclimated to that environment. So they sent me to a military camp called Howe. military school and then they had the camp. So it was How Military Camp. And that was in Indiana. That's not where I was going to be going to school, but they offered a camp and where I was going to be going to didn't. So I went to that camp. Then I spent the school year at Midwest Military Academy that used to be in Wheaton, Illinois, no longer is. And in that camp met some some kids, made some friends because no one really knew anybody. So it was easier to make friends. And then I went to my first year of military school. And then after military school, I went back to how military camp. And everyone was making fun of the fact and couldn't believe how much weight I had gained in that one year while I was gone. So people noticed, people made comments, and it really just got worse from there. I think the more that it ruined my self-esteem, the more I kept eating to suppress my feelings or to feed the feelings. And so yeah, pretty much took off from there. But I definitely remember that summer and people were like, what happened? And I was never treated the same since. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): And you and I both know that the things that Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): And I'll Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): younger individuals can say can be flat out mean. So do the things people s said become part of the way you spoke to yourself? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, the the the the cruelest voices do not always have to stay in the room. So basically you're hearing them say those things and when they walk away, their thoughts stay. And they they fester in your mind and if that keeps happening, eventually you start to believe it yourself. And sometimes the the words tear you down, and you're trying to build yourself back up from there. But the problem is you know they're true. You know that you're different. You know that you don't like being that way. You know that by being that way, it's affecting you physically, mentally, and in every way possible. And Then what became even worse was after being in military school and the way that I I had mentioned my parents kind of living a partying type lifestyle, eventually they were spending too much money in that lifestyle to be able to afford to keep me in military school. So after spending third, fourth, and fifth grade in military school, I had to go back to public school. Which at sixth grade, you're switching schools anyway. You're going on to junior high. So already you're merging your school with other schools. And that's a very difficult time because yeah, you still have your core group, but you're merging with other schools. And it's almost like in some ways every kid's the new kid. But you at least have some kids that are gonna have your back, right? Coming from a military school or a private school of any kind. back into public school, you don't even have that. So I always say that the only thing worse than being the fat kid was to be the new fat kid. And just it's much worse, trust me. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah. So there's already a lot of moving parts to your story. I mean, you got a lack of relationship with your father, you had a new stepdad that came into the household, you switched schools. Now this is the second time you're switching schools. you got parents that adopted a partying lifestyle. What changed when you entered a completely new environment once again without really no support system? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, I mean when you start a new school, you you don't you don't really know the rules. You don't know the people, you don't know what clique you're gonna fit into, who are the popular kids you should be either staying away because you don't belong, or the the kids that you don't wanna be associated with because that's only gonna make your problems worse, and adding being the fat kid. And I I know that those words can be triggering for some people and I'm just really kind of using the words that were thrown at me. It's not words I'm comfortable with, just so everyone knows. But when you add that and you just so easily become the target for all the ridicule before anyone has even taken a chance to to get to know you. So I was trying to navigate in a new and scary situation while being reminded that I was different and I already had so many reasons to believe I was different just coming from a household of divorce, which is so much more common now, right? Of course. But in the early eighties, it was far less common. So I was already different. Then you add that component to it. It was it was really tough. I didn't have a a safe place at school where I knew I belonged ever. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah, so again, with Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): everything happening at home, now you're at a new school, you're hearing all those comments. Did you feel like you had anybody to talk to at that particular time? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): yeah. So the only one that could really really relate to my situation at all was my sister. And she was two and a half years older, which sometimes was nice because we were fairly close in age, but then when you think of going through school, there were times she was in junior high when I was in grade school and I was in junior high when she was in high school, so that didn't always mesh. And a lot of what I was going through was different than what she was going through. But at least we had the commonality of growing up in the same household, seeing the same things, being a part of that environment together. So she would be the one person that I would talk to for sure. So having my sister around was was good. It was it was someone, but like I said, she didn't understand completely. And but that question kind of takes me back. And when I think about my relationship with my my sister and how the two of us were kind of taking on the world in in grade school and because my mom was working so many jobs, my stepfather was an over the road truck driver. And so he wasn't around much. So my sister and I were basically raising each other. And when I was in military school, and I'll tie this back to my sister here in a moment, but when I was in military school, the one teacher that did kind of take an interest in me was this gentleman, Major Decker. And he had been a teacher for military schools for quite some time. And I think that really I had to think back on this, and I think the reason why he kind of took a liking to me is I'm the only kid from the military school that I was at at that time that had ever been to Howe Military School, which was where he was from. He spent most of his career there before moving over to Midwest Military Academy. So we kind of had that in common. And he was my social studies teacher and he got me into current events and history and it, you know, so that was really kind of where my my love for social studies started was because of him. And he used to tell these stories. And he told this story of Jacques the Clown. And just an aside, it's the funniest thing. I think there's a version of this story that has followed a lot of people because I saw a very similar story portrayed many years later on an episode of CSI, and it was spooky how it was the same story, except I think they use Bobo the clown in that one. But the story goes something like this. So there's this guy. Really struggling, really down on his luck. He goes into his psychiatrist's office for their weekly visit. They're talking. And he's like, Doc, I think this is it. I think this is my time. And doctor says, I understand you've had a really hard time. You've had a rough go of it. I know you've been trying everything that I tell you. And I I I'm almost out of ideas. So, I mean, I'm here for you. I really would love for you to stay. all I can say is maybe tomorrow's gonna be a better day. and it's like, Doc, no, I just I think this is it. And he goes, All right, well, you know what? This is gonna sound ridiculous. But last night, my family and I We went to the circus and we had the absolute best time. And there was this one clown there. So I think, yeah, his name was Jacques. Right, Jacques the Clown. And man, the way he played to the crowd. Everyone was laughing, like my face hurt, but from how how apart I was laughing. This the the clown was awesome. You know what? If it's the last thing you do. Go and go to the circus. I know, I know, I know. It sounds crazy. Go to the circus. Go and see Jacques the clown. At least you can say you did something fun before you decided to end it. He's like, Doc, come on, man. A clown? Going to the circus? I'm sitting here telling you I'm I'm I'm ready to take my life, and you're saying go to the circus? He's like, I know, I know, but you know what? Even if you you go out on one good note, you had One last hurrah, one good time. Just just go, just for me. We spent a lot of time. I I've really tried to help you. Just do this for me. And he goes, Doc, come on, I can't. And doc and the doctor says, No, come on, come on, just just try it. Just and maybe it's maybe it'll give you a reason to wake up tomorrow and say, man, that was such a great time. He's like, doc, I can't. He's like, why not? And he goes, Doc, I am John Clown. Obviously that story stuck with me my whole life. Because when I heard that story from Major Decker, it kind of became somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I kind of made my mind up that I was going to try and be the class clown from that point on and try and make people laugh with me instead of laughing at me. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't, but my sister knew that story. And she knew what it meant to me. So back when and you'll remember this, Marc, we had a a venture department store that exists and hasn't existed for a very long time. But when you first walked into the store, they had this little kind of like a kiosk to the side that had jewelry that you could get. And it was cheap stuff, but you get it engraved, you know, whether it's lockets, bracelets, whatever. And my sister just to kind of Let me know that she was supporting me. She bought me a bracelet. And on the bracelet, on the top of the the bracelet, it said jock. And because most people didn't know about Jock the clown, but she did. And she knew that that was how I was trying to cope. And underneath there was a separate inscription that said, Pardon me, to the greatest clown I know. So that's that's the story of Jacques the Clown and that was the kind of relationship that at least at one time my sister and I had. And so that was that was my one and only person that I really could talk to. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): So that leads me to my next question. And it's it's a deep question, Kels. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): And then Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): To somebody else, that inscription obviously sounds a little playful. But when your sister gave it to you, did it feel like she was recognizing the person who brought laughter to a lot of individuals, or the person she knew that was hiding behind the laughter? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. And I wish I still had that bracelet because it was probably one of the most meaningful things she or anyone ever gave me. feel like I lost it in a move or something somewhere. but it it it actually felt like she was just giving me permission to be Jacques without judgment and with some level of understanding. And As I said, she was the only person that could relate to me even a little. but she may not have realized how much that bracelet meant to me then. but it definitely did. And unfortunately, I can't even have this conversation with her because she passed away a couple of years ago. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): I'm sorry to hear about that. You and I've had some conversations about that too. So Okay, so while everybody else saw the clown at school, all your friends and so forth, what what was really happening to the boy underneath? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, underneath. yeah, I was I was hurting. you know, and just going back and forth. One minute filled with rage and I was getting in fights and you and I have joked about the fact that we don't know how we didn't run into each other more in Dean Nones's office more often, considering how much we were both there. But yeah, so one minute rage and then the next minute I just wanted to go into a corner and cry. And that was much of my childhood. And that's when I started experiencing thoughts of suicide. I mean, by the time I was in high school, those thoughts were a part of my everyday routine. to kind of describe, and Marc's heard this before, but and and I don't take it lightly when I say this, but it just became so a matter of fact. You know, when the person wakes up, right? Go to the bathroom, right? It's kind of everybody's thing. Come out of the bathroom, then either you brush your teeth or you get dressed or you go down and get some breakfast or or whatever you're gonna do. And my ritual is a little different. I'd go to the bathroom, and then I would stand in front of the mirror with my arms up on the counter, and I'd look in the mirror, and I'd very calmly say, Is today the day that I take my life? And that I did that every day and kept trying to figure out excuses or or reasons or saying, you know, maybe not today, maybe tomorrow. And so you know that would happen before school, before seeing anyone, and certainly before playing class clown for the day. And so and figuring out what mood I was in, if I was gonna get in a fight or If I was gonna try and make everyone laugh that day. So I I I guess I just didn't understand mental health the way that I do now, obviously. I didn't have a diagnosis to fall back on or medication or a psychiatrist, counselor. I didn't even really have a best friend. My best friend was states away that I met in military school and Back then you were only allowed to talk to each other every so often because it was a long distance call. So I would have permission maybe every couple of months to to call him. So I just really didn't have that. So all I knew is that I was ashamed, alone, overwhelmed, just struggling to imagine that my life would be any different tomorrow than it was today. I had really nothing to look forward to. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): This is where I'm gonna interject a little bit here because as I said at the start of the podcast, Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Mm. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): I knew of Kelsey in high school, but I really didn't talk to him in high school. But I remember the kid, yes, he was a bigger kid, running the halls. Honestly, I saw you laughing a lot. I saw a drama show and you were in the you were in the show. And I had so much respect for this kid because yes. He was a bigger individual then, but he was so friggin' limber and running around the friggin' stage, I was just like, wow. I mean, I was like just in shock. So I had a lot of respect for him, but you know, it was a it was a I can't even call it a casual relationship. And you have no idea when you're walking past somebody in the hallway at high school, what the hell's going on on the inside? And it's it's It's sad, and that's why it's so important for us to just ask each other, you know, how are you doing? You know, and and and show empathy for somebody because you don't know what's going on in somebody's household. You don't know what's going on in their mind. And I I had no idea, and I'm sure a lot of your friends that were c that were that were closer to you probably had no idea as well. So when you stood in front of the mirror every morning, did you want your life to end? Or did you want the pain in the situation that you were trapped in to end? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Well, first off, I want to address your previous comment. I don't think you had ever mentioned that you had seen me in in one of the plays that I was in. but it's kind of funny when you look back now and and you hear this story and how all the time I was trying to play a clown, how I ended up in theater, right? I was so used to being to playing someone else. That just kind of came natural. So I think that's kind of an interesting aside. But to answer your question. Yeah, I don't like we just said, I did plays, I did sports. I mean, I did stuff even as a a bigger kid. Now, obviously, when it comes to sports, I would have been so much better if I was more fit, right? But I did them well enough that I could be competitive. I had lots of reasons to want to live. But I I think you made the more important point is that I did just want the pain to go away. It's not that I didn't have things that I enjoyed doing. I did. But it was always just pushed aside because of the way that I was feeling about myself and the way that other people were making me feel about myself. And and one thing I want to say too, because we're we're talking about this, and I don't know to what degree this has changed, and I I can say it it's it's never going to change enough. But I think that often in schools we see the kids that are getting in trouble. And we think it's a discipline problem. And that's why I got put in military school. I had a discipline problem. No one ever stopped to say, why is this kid acting out? Is he acting out because something's going on, or is he acting out because he's a bad kid? I think that the more they dig into people that are acting out, I think the more that they would realize that they're not really a bad kid. They just don't know how to handle what's going on inside, and that's how they're projecting. But again, to answer your question, I I did just want the pain to end. I I didn't really want to take my life. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): I just kinda want to lean on that a little bit. because when I talk to a lot of individuals with the work that I do that struggle with various addictions, you know, or underlying with underlying mental health, you do hear that story over and over again, you know, that disciplinary problems started in in in school. But it usually started after a life altering event. Parents going through a divorce or, you know, having to move and meet all new friends. I mean you hear this repeatedly. And I I don't I I don't know if the system has changed, if the view is just that they're a bad kid, as you said, you know, or if if they truly are looking at possibly some underlying mental health. I'm sure that it's come a long way since the early nineteen nineties, late nineteen eighties. But that is a very, very, very common thing that I see in the work that we're doing in the community. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, so with Marc and I each having our kind of own issues with our childhood and and maybe everyone does. I mean, I'm not trying to say we're exclusive to this, but for us, it it's just it's no wonder why we do what we do, right, Marc? You know, we don't we don't hide the fact that we've had to overcome our pains, our adversities. And you've said yourself before, Marc, that some of why you do the work. That you do is because it's helpful to your own recovery. And that's Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Absolutely. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): a major part of why you do it. So, helping people makes me feel like I can provide value while I continue to try and heal from my own internal struggles, which I don't think I'll ever truly be over. It's going to be a part of who I am. And I say it's a good thing because it's allowed me to see people in ways that they don't get to be seen. And to want to listen, to want to be a part of the solution instead of feeding that problem. But I really just want people not to feel alone. And I want to give them support during their darkest moments and just because it's the right thing to do. But also especially coming from a place where I personally was never given that option. So it's not going to give me back the years that I should remember as like. The greatest years of your life, right? But it Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): might help someone else not to waste theirs. And that's what we're talking about today. So if I can help someone not to feel that way or to help them feel a little differently, that means everything to me. And it's the best possible healing that I can ever ask for. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): And you shared a story with me one time. It honestly broke my heart when you shared the story with me. and I and I kinda wanna bring it up if you feel comfortable talking about it. And that's the infamous scale story that you shared with me one time. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, so when you're in high school, as I said, very, very clicky, right? no surprise to anyone. So I was just constantly trying to go back and forth, trying to figure out where I fit. And honestly, it was kind of funny because I I always used to say that I fit in with the misfits. They were the ones that would accept anybody because they themselves were looking for people to accept them. And so I guess I just kind of fit with them. But a lot of times those misfits were also the ones that were the gangbangers or the people doing the drugs things like that. So those were some of the people that I was hanging out with. And to a certain level, I was accepted. So needless to say, so I'm I'm out with friends and we go to one of our friends' houses and they have a scale and they're all weighing themselves in. And I'm like, Yeah, okay, I'm not doing that. No, no, no, no. That's not gonna be me. Okay. One of their girlfriends, their girlfriends, says to me, Hey Kelsey, why don't you get on the scale? And I'm like, I I don't want to. And they're like, like, what? Are you afraid that it's gonna come up dot dot dot? I'll never forget that comment for the rest of my life. Like, it's whatever that number is, it's growing and it's gonna keep growing and it's gonna keep growing and until it destroys me. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): And that's what I'm saying. I stated earlier, Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): And Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): you know, that kids can be just cruel. And here's a situation that happened 30 plus years ago that you're reciting it like it just happened yesterday. it's stuck with you pretty much your entire life. So words matter, no doubt about it. So we're obviously referencing situations that happened during your childhood or adolescent years. Did those thoughts ever move beyond thoughts, Kelsey? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. there of all the times that I considered it, there's there's one time that I actually did try to take my life. As bad as high school was, somehow I got through it. And still hanging out with a bad crowd. And one time we were at Brunswick Bowling Alley, at North Avenue and Glen Allen Road, so kind of on the border of Glen Ellen and Glendale Heights. And a bunch of us, I think one of the kids was in a bowling league on the weekend, and so we all would meet up there and hang out. And it was winter. And it was very cold. One of our friends lived just a few blocks away. It was like less than a mile. And so when we got done, I was the only one that. had a car. Some of them were younger. And that was kind of part of the thing too, is I was mentoring people even at that age, just that was just in my nature. And so I was the only one that had a car. And so we all piled into my car and there was a lot of kids. And I'm like, guys, I don't I don't have enough room for everyone. And the one kid's like, well, I'll just ride in the trunk. And I'm like, no, that's ri no, no, no, that's not happening. Okay. Well Apparently I got my arm twisted enough. One kid jumped in the trunk. Another kid was laying across three other kids' laps in the back seat. And then me and then the another person in the front seat. And so I'm like, God, this is so crazy. So we're driving, but again, I'm telling myself, it's only a mile. It's fine. It's not that big of a deal. If I was going further, I would have said no. This is okay. And the guys in the car were like, hey, let's make. his name was Steve what we call him Poncho. Anyway, let let you know kind of jerk the wheel and jostle him around it'll be fun. Yeah not so much fun. So I did that and lost control of my vehicle and my vehicle hit an embankment and my car flipped over. So in that moment my car was totaled. Found out I didn't have car insurance. Apparently, my license had already been suspended because I didn't have car insurance and I didn't even know it. So I'm driving on a suspended license. I have six passengers in my car, all of them under the age of 18. I was the only one over 18. And so in that moment, no car, no way to get to work. My friends all blamed me for the accident. Parents were all suing me. And I literally lost everything. So as much as I was tempted to take my life before this incident, this was it for me. So I waited for an opportunity to be able to borrow one of my parents' cars. I think I told them I had a job interview, and they're like, okay, well, I don't know how you're gonna get to and from work, even if you get the job because you don't have car, but you know, maybe we'll work something out. So go ahead and take the car and go to the job interview. I went back to that Brunswick bowling alley and I sat in my car staring at the side of the brick building. And I said, this is where it all started, the whole incident. This is the place that was symbolic of the day that my life pretty much had ended in in the living sense. So it might as well be the place where I end it right here. And so was mustering up the courage Put my foot on the gas, said this is it. And I attempted to plow my car into the side of the bowling alley. And that was going to be the way I was going to take my life. And at least everyone would know that that was my breaking point that day. And what happened to me was what finally broke me. And again, you know, it's it's still winter and as I'm barreling into this building, all of a sudden my car started to spin out. So I must have hit some black ice or something in the parking lot or something, and that's or something. So I don't know if it was divine intervention, higher power, It's not important as to what happened. The fact is that I was still there. I was hyperventilating because that that was supposed to be it. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Man, that's a deep story, Kelsey. I mean I appreciate you sharing that with the Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): And Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): audience. I think that's very important. When you realized you were still here, what happened inside you? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): I didn't know whether or not I wanted to be mad or relieved. You know, in that moment, I was determined. I finally found a way out of the internal hell that I was in. And so that was probably my first thought. And then my second thought was. Maybe I'm supposed to be here. Maybe this wasn't supposed to happen. And this this was a higher power situation saying this isn't your time. But now I was forced to confront the fact that I'm still alive, but I still have all this pain. So I didn't suddenly have an aha moment of how I'm gonna. fix myself, heal from my childhood and my family situation, my my weight and how I feel about myself. But it kind of created like a line in the sand. That was like that was your life leading up to that moment. Here's an opportunity to start a new one. One that doesn't have all that. Yeah, it was there. Yeah, it was part of your past. But it was like for the first time, I felt like it didn't have to be my present and my future. Like, like a part of me that was meant to die in that moment did. And now I had this opportunity to be born again. And I don't recommend anybody going through that. but I can tell you that if you just have a moment where you're like, enough, that enough doesn't have to be, I'm gonna take my life. That enough could be enough of dealing with before. I need to figure out who I am now and who I want to be, not who I've been and all my pain and all the the torture. That you're going through inside, and I'm not saying it it's like a light switch, because certainly things didn't change drastically. But if you make up your mind to say, I'm just gonna worry about today, and I'm gonna worry about tomorrow. And and Marc, with your sobriety, you've gone through this the same exact way, and that's where you and I relate so well, is because our problems were completely different, but it all Culminated in that one day where we said, that's it. Today is different. And tomorrow is going to be different. And it's going to take a long time to ever feel whole again. But we made a choice. People can make that choice and decide that they're going to just do a little bit better, as people always talk about. 1% better, 1% better, 1% better. And you know what? Eventually it adds up and you start finding your purpose. So I didn't walk away from that moment suddenly believing everything was going to get better. In fact, kind of a funny story is as I'm making this decision that I'm going to start living a better life, part of me was expecting to fail. Part of me thought that I was going to end up right back there at that bowling alley and saying, take two. Part of me felt like that. really. And so I kind of made this I guess a strange deal. I will try my hardest to live a better life, to find a reason and a purpose to keep going. But but if I try and I fail. Then I can be at peace with my decision. And then whether it was a bowling alley or it was something else, I'd be at peace with that decision. And I'd be able to go through with it and say, hey, at least I can say I really did try. But so there was a part of me that was actually expecting to fail, not hoping to, of course, but kind of expecting that that's what was going to happen. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): So surviving did not immediately make you choose life forever. You gave yourself a chance to try to live differently, even though part of you expected that attempt to fail. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, exactly. I wasn't instantly healed and I was not suddenly convinced that life was gonna become wonderful, but I made a commitment and trying meant I couldn't simply return to living exactly how I had before. That commitment gave me time. It created movement. And little by little it created opportunities and to experience parts of my life I never believed I would have been able to. I mean I came frighteningly close to never discovering who I could become. And I'm so glad that I had that second chance and That's why I'm using that second chance to try and get as many other people's second chances as I can. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): That's amazing. So when did that conditional decision to give life Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): So Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): a chance become a genuine desire to keep living, Kelsey? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, it was it was a series of decisions, right? So, you know, recovery is is a word people sometimes use as if you're crossing a line and everything behind you disappears. Kind of that that line in the sand moment that I talked about. You know, but I mean that wasn't really my experience. I had to I had to build a life where I was still carrying pieces of the pain. I had to discover strength before I actually felt strong. I had to keep moving before I could see what path was being laid out for me. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): what did fighting look like during those years, especially when you did not Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Well here. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): yet know what your future Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Okay. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): world would become. I mean there was a lot of uncertainty there still. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): I kind of thought that what would be the one thing that would contribute to me living a happier life? And to me it was obvious. Lose weight. Lose weight. And you'll become I mean, and of course this is from the mind of a 19-year-old if this happened. If I lose weight, I can be more popular. People are like me more. I'll be able to do more things. Everything started with the weight. And It's kind of funny because I do explain to people that the work that we're doing now, it's so much different than the 30 years of fitness coaching that I did. Because I think that there's a part of me while being a fitness coach that always concentrated on helping people to feel better about themselves through weight loss and not realizing that you can actually help people to start feeling better about themselves at their current weight. And really that's where it should start. And the more that you feel better about yourself, the more you're gonna want to be physically active, the more that you're gonna want to put the right things in in your body. And I never really understood that fully until you and I started working together, honestly. And that's why I kind of made a shift more into the mental health space from the the fitness space. But it started with me trying to lose weight and therefore I was like, Well, what do I do? So I'm like, all right, so I probably shouldn't eat as much junk food. Okay. I probably should just eat less food, period. Okay. And I need to get more physically active, at least on a regular basis, So I had to make the decision that I was going to either go outside and walk, or walking on the treadmill. Walking turned into jogging. And little by little the weight started to come off. And it was just those little moments where you're seeing some progress that you're like, well, what else can I do? What what else can I change that's gonna make this go faster or Gonna make me feel better. And so that's why when we tell people, don't try to shift everything. Don't even try and shift the big things. If you just focus on one small habit and get used to it and can count it as a win, it will definitely promote you going and find other challenges and other things to knock off the list. And that's where you and I talk about. the the dopamine response, right? Where we want the good dopamine, which is the example, as opposed to the bad dopamine of like, hey, but if I eat this piece of chocolate cake, I'm gonna feel good. There's bad dopamine, there's good dopamine. We encourage people to have the good dopamine. I didn't know anything about dopamine back then. The internet didn't even exist. I had no idea what I was doing. And that's why when I eventually lost the weight and felt better about myself, I decided to spend the rest of my life in service To other people that were probably suffering similar to the way that I did. And I just wanted to help other people to not have to suffer as long or as much or people that could relate to me. And I was just like, hey, I know how to help you. but it's just those little things that end up making big things. And that could be for somebody trying to lose weight. That could be somebody who's trying to to get sober. That could be somebody who's just struggling trying to find their place in life and their purpose is just start out with a small thing. so I started losing weight and I met a girl and we're still pretty young and all of a sudden we had a Mason and that's my oldest son. And at that point, that's when I knew for sure. That the person that was contemplating taking their life and couldn't find their purpose, couldn't figure out how to get through the day, I knew that person was finally gone. Because having lost my father at four, I knew that there was no way that I was going to let my son live without a father and that I was going to give him the best of what I had. And that's really when you want to talk about. fighting your way back, that's that's when I knew I was gonna win my fight because someone else was counting on me. I was a father at barely over twenty one. So that definitely reinforced my decision to live in a completely different way that I was never going to to go back to being that person that I was. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): So fatherhood in general is an awesome responsibility. But fatherhood at a young age, 21 for you, sometimes can be frightening because I mean we're young adults at that particular time, just still trying to figure out life, right? And you've gone through a lot at this particular time, more than the average child, in my opinion, and an adolescent and young adult. So what changed when you realize another person would depend on you? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, for sure. fatherhood gave my life a responsibility beyond myself. My child needed me to be here, right? And that didn't magically heal every wound, but it gave me the reason to keep fighting. And one other thing that I want to point out about this moment is my son was born with disabilities. one of them he was born with a club foot. His foot was all the way bent into his leg. he was born with the umbilical cord around his neck, which I know is really not that outstanding now. And back then, I don't even know if it really made much of a difference. But as he was growing up, he presented other disability issues. So there's a part of me that had a really hard time With his disabilities, and not just because you don't have this perfect child and you're mad or anything like that. I mean, I guess I was, but I was mad at myself. There was a part of me that actually believed that this kid was born this way in order to tell me, You have no choice. This kid needs you too much. But when you're in that situation and you're like, what's going on? Why is this this way? Why is this that way? You're so scared. And what you realize in that moment is this kid is going to need a higher level of care. And he's going to need a parent that is going to be present and is going to need a lot more of me than a lot of other. kids born to this world. you can't possibly leave this kid. This one needs you too much. And there was a part of me I think that blamed myself for his being born that way. I don't feel that way now, but I definitely did then. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Okay, so you know, I mean that's a lot to deal with, Kels I mean, at twenty one years old, one becoming a father, two, going through everything that you went through that you just described, and now that you have a son that's born and and born with a disability, and the fact that you're able to get through all that trials and turbulations of life and then continue to push forward, I mean, that says a lot about your character. And that says a lot about the man that you are today. So I just want to make sure that that you understand that, okay? So moving forward, when you think about the adults, teachers, relatives or friends who may be listening, what do you wish somebody had noticed or asked when you were struggling? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): I wish more people understood that you just don't need the perfect words. I I think we're always trying to figure out the right thing to say. And sometimes we don't say anything because we're like, I'm not sure if I can come up with anything right now that's actually gonna help them. So maybe I should just maybe it's not the right time. Maybe they're not ready to to hear from me or to hear. Words of encouragement and they just need the the time or the space. You have to understand you don't need to solve everyone's entire life in one conversation. But you do need to be willing to notice, ask, listen clearly, most important, and just stay. Just stay around, you know, check in. And if you really think they're struggling. It's okay to ask them, are you considering taking your life? Are you feeling that bad right now? And it's okay if you are, but I'd like to talk to you about it if you're willing. And then just don't shame the answer or debate the person or immediately turn the conversation into a lecture. It's an opportunity for you to just listen. Listen, if they want to talk and tell you what they're going through, I guarantee you they're not going to feel completely better by talking about it, but they're at least going to feel a little better after talking about it than they did before they talked about it. But also, you know, help them get connected to support if they're they're willing. And, if you think that it's serious enough that they should talk to someone and you can encourage them to do that. I mean, don't push. You never want push somebody or force them to do something they don't want to do. As Marc and I have talked about before with sobriety, you can't get somebody to go to help if they're not ready for help. And it's just not gonna stick, even if you can get them to go at all. But the chances are you're just gonna shut down future conversations if you force them into something because they're gonna be like, well, I'm never going to them for advice again, or to talk to them and have them listen because I know how they're gonna react. So it is tricky. But supporting them, being there for them, and listening to them. And then follow up. Don't think that just because this one conversation has a good outcome, that that means we can go, cool. I guess they're good. No, you gotta follow up. You gotta check in on them. You gotta let them know that you being there for them was not just a one-off. So that's probably My best advice when dealing with somebody who's really struggling is to be there, listen, follow up. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): And if you think about it. I mean should never assume that the person who appears to be happy all the time or the people that appear to be strong all the time need the least support. you see people that are quote unquote the clowns, the Jauques the clowns, okay, or people that appear to have everything going on, you know, from a from a strength perspective. You cannot assume I know this with the work that I do, you know this with the work that you do. But I think again this is a very important point to drive home for the audience. And listening and being a safe space and showing empathy and showing support is so important in the world that we live in today with everything that's going on on. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Exactly. People become very good at showing us what they think we want to see. They already feel like they stand out in a crowd to begin with. Most of the time when they really don't. So the last thing they want to do is to stand out even more and have people think that they're more different than they already feel like they are. So this is why Suicide Prevention matters so much to me. Changing the narrative means replacing silence with conversation, judgment with curiosity, and shame with support. It means understanding that strong people can still struggle. Parents can struggle, coaches can struggle. The person that spends all day helping everyone else can go home feeling as if there's nobody that they can tell. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): And I appreciate you being honest and Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): raw sharing your story today. It obviously doesn't change what happened to you, but it may change what happens next for somebody that's listening, Kelsey. So thank you very much for sharing and and really getting deep into the into the weeds of your story here. I know that that's not easy to do. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. It's funny, Marc and I were talking about the fact that two episodes ago was overdose awareness and how much that day means to him, and then this one was right around the corner, and it's obviously something that's near and dear to me. So that's why we keep talking, you know? if my openness helps one person, like I said, Marc and I are just gonna keep talking about it till it helps even more and more and more people. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Hundred percent. So in closing Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): yeah. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): with the last question I have, if you could sit beside that child today, the boy who felt ashamed, isolated, and unable to see a future, what would you tell that young boy, Kelsey? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Well, I definitely know now I wouldn't start by beginning with some kind of a speech or a lecture, right? most of the time they can't even process what you're trying to tell them. they're so tunnel vision that most of the time The only way that they can think about something outside of the thoughts that they're in is by talking their way through it. And then those thoughts naturally occur to them. But not from outside sources so much as the working through it internally that happens when you're actually having a conversation outwardly. I at least in my experience and in the experience of a lot of people that I have talked to. That have struggled like this. So I I think I would sit beside him long enough for him to understand I'm not going anywhere. Then I would tell him what's happening to you is real, but it's not the whole story of your life. The pain is speaking loudly right now, but it doesn't know everything that's waiting for you down the road. You're gonna become a father, you're gonna help people. You're gonna turn the things that made you feel ashamed into reasons other people feel understood. You cannot see that life yet, but it's still yours. And the person listening who recognizes any part of themselves in my story, please tell someone. Let another person into the room with you. You don't have to solve your entire life tonight. You only need to stay long enough for the next moment to become possible. And if you're in the United States and you need immediate support, you can call or text nine eighty eight to reach the suicide and crisis lifeline. And as I said before, if you're in immediate danger, just call nine one. The life you cannot picture from inside today's pain may already be waiting for you. So for Marc Rogala, I'm Kelsey Dunbar. Keep rebuilding, keep moving forward, keep becoming stronger than what tried to stop you. And remember, you don't have to have it all figured out. You just have to keep going. And we'll see you next time on Rebuild and Fulfill. Take care.