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Identifying The Signs of Financial Abuse · She's On The Money

0:00
Speaker 1: Hello.
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Speaker 2: My name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud your the
0:05
Speaker 2: Order Kerni Wholbury and a waddery woman. And before we
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Speaker 2: get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would
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Speaker 2: like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of
0:14
Speaker 2: which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country, acknowledging
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Speaker 2: the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through
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Speaker 2: as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and
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Speaker 2: the storytelling of you to make a difference for today
0:31
Speaker 2: and lasting impact for tomorrow. Let's get into it.
0:34
Speaker 3: She's on the Money, She's on the Money.
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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money causer millennials
1:00
Speaker 1: who want financial freedom. I'm your host, Victoria Devine, and
1:04
Speaker 1: today we're shining a light on an often hidden form
1:07
Speaker 1: of domestic violence, financial abuse. We are joined by a
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Speaker 1: woman whose life work is all about identifying and ending
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Speaker 1: financial abuse. Her name is Caroline Wall and she's from
1:19
Speaker 1: the Commonwealth Bank. Caroline, Welcome to the show. I'm actually
1:23
Speaker 1: very excited to have you here because this is something
1:25
Speaker 1: we need to be breaking open so much more often.
1:29
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.
1:30
Speaker 1: No of course, before we get into I have a
1:33
Speaker 1: lot of questions. But before we get into all of
1:35
Speaker 1: those questions, I did just want to give this episode
1:38
Speaker 1: a content warning. I know that our topic is financial abuse,
1:43
Speaker 1: but I did want to let you know that for
1:44
Speaker 1: immediate crisis support relating to domestic violence or sexual abuse,
1:49
Speaker 1: you can also call one eight hundred respect and in
1:52
Speaker 1: an emergency or if you're not feeling safe, please always
1:56
Speaker 1: call Triple zero. But today we are talking at out
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Speaker 1: recognizing the signs of financial abuse, how it presents in relationships,
2:04
Speaker 1: where to access help, and what different services can be
2:07
Speaker 1: provided in so much more. But first, Caroline, I'm very
2:12
Speaker 1: excited to have you here because I want to know
2:14
Speaker 1: so much more about your work. I know you've worked
2:16
Speaker 1: in this space for a very long time. Tell me
2:19
Speaker 1: about how long you've worked in this space and what
2:21
Speaker 1: led you to I guess have this as a passion
2:24
Speaker 1: for your entire career.
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Speaker 4: Thank you. I've worked in the area of customer vulnerability
2:29
Speaker 4: for close on ten years now. I work at the
2:32
Speaker 4: moment in a team of specialists that really represent the
2:35
Speaker 4: voice of a customer inside a large financial institution, and
2:39
Speaker 4: to make sure that we're working with community organizations to
2:42
Speaker 4: make sure people's voices are heard and understood and that
2:45
Speaker 4: they're treated fairly when trying to under access and undertake
2:49
Speaker 4: their banking. One of my key focus areas is very
2:52
Speaker 4: much family and domestic violence and a notion of financial
2:56
Speaker 4: abuse and trying to understand how banking products and banking
3:00
Speaker 4: services can be misused or weaponized by perpetrators of family
3:05
Speaker 4: and domestic violence, to make sure that we're considering ways
3:08
Speaker 4: to develop products in a way that really centers the
3:11
Speaker 4: safety of our customers into the product's design. By this space, SCOSH,
3:16
Speaker 4: financial abuse and family and domestic violence continues to be
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Speaker 4: one of the most significant challenges that we face as
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Speaker 4: a society today. And I was really drawn to working
3:26
Speaker 4: in this area back around twenty fifteen when our organization
3:30
Speaker 4: started to look at the issues surrounding domestic violence and
3:33
Speaker 4: financial abuse to understand the role that finances often play
3:38
Speaker 4: in keeping people trapped in abusive relationships.
3:41
Speaker 1: And it's wild that that, you know, even in twenty
3:43
Speaker 1: twenty four, is so prevalent, Like it breaks my heart.
3:46
Speaker 1: I feel like it is a massive privilege to be
3:49
Speaker 1: leading the She's on the Money community, Like it's literally
3:52
Speaker 1: my favorite thing in the entire world. But one of
3:54
Speaker 1: the really heartbreaking parts of She's on the Money is
3:57
Speaker 1: I'm often a very trusted human that if you're experiencing
4:01
Speaker 1: financial abuse and don't really know what that looks like
4:04
Speaker 1: or how that works, I get an influx of messages.
4:07
Speaker 1: So sadly I know a lot about this, having worked
4:10
Speaker 1: in financial advice and worked in this space, I just
4:12
Speaker 1: feel that it is so much more prevalent, but we
4:16
Speaker 1: don't seem to understand fully what that looks like. Caroline,
4:20
Speaker 1: how did you fall into the space of customer vulnerability?
4:23
Speaker 1: What did that look like? Because I know you've been
4:25
Speaker 1: in it for ten plus years, but you know, do
4:28
Speaker 1: you finish university and go all right, well, I'd really
4:31
Speaker 1: like to work in this space or is it something
4:33
Speaker 1: like how do you get into this area of work?
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Speaker 4: The great question that there's no degree that I'm aware
4:38
Speaker 4: of that is custom of vulnerability.
4:40
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm asking you don't go to UNI for this.
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Speaker 4: My background is actually philosophy in politics, so not particularly
4:47
Speaker 4: relevant to the work that I'm doing today.
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Speaker 1: Yes, it is people who do philosophy and politics. You
4:53
Speaker 1: know what those people do? They care a lot like
4:55
Speaker 1: you don't study philosophy or politics. If you don't want
4:58
Speaker 1: to instigate change, do you.
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Speaker 4: That's true, and I've always been interested, as you say,
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Speaker 4: in instigating change through a series of roles. Starting out
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Speaker 4: in investor relations, so looking at corporate social responsibilities sort
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Speaker 4: of how big companies can do good. Spent a number
5:13
Speaker 4: of years sort of working in that space and examining,
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Speaker 4: you know, shareholder activism and environmental and social governance for
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Speaker 4: big companies, and from there ended up over in Australia
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Speaker 4: about ten years ago. Case you can't tell from my
5:27
Speaker 4: accent I am English. That's not a strong and despite
5:31
Speaker 4: ten years, I still can't get quite rid of the
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Speaker 4: British twang. But started working for a bank over here
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Speaker 4: in Australia and it was round about the time that
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Speaker 4: a new banking Code of Practice came into effect which
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Speaker 4: really started to introduce some social policy for banks to consider.
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Speaker 1: So the role of supporting.
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Speaker 4: Customers who, due to their personal or situational circumstances, may
5:55
Speaker 4: have challenges accessing banking. You know, for the majority of people,
6:00
Speaker 4: using digital banking is not an issue, or going to
6:02
Speaker 4: your local branches not an issue, but for some people
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Speaker 4: they can face really challenging barriers to maintaining their banking
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Speaker 4: and so I started to work in that space to
6:13
Speaker 4: understand the role of financial institutions and making it easier
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Speaker 4: for people to access what is essentially an essential service.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel like this space is really misunderstood
6:23
Speaker 1: as well. We've been trying to do, you know, over
6:26
Speaker 1: the years that she's on, The Money has existed a
6:29
Speaker 1: lot of work to educate people on what financial abuse
6:32
Speaker 1: looks like. And we have been so privileged to have
6:35
Speaker 1: money diarists come on the show that say I've experienced
6:38
Speaker 1: this or you know, this is you know, my reality,
6:40
Speaker 1: or I've gotten out of this, and it's really inspiring
6:43
Speaker 1: to see that. But I think that has opened my
6:45
Speaker 1: eyes up and our community's eyes up to the idea
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Speaker 1: that financial abuse isn't just your partner abusing you know,
6:53
Speaker 1: the system, or abusing you through money. We've seen, you know,
6:57
Speaker 1: people come on the show and talk about how they're
6:59
Speaker 1: being financially abused by parent. We've seen people who have
7:02
Speaker 1: lost money through cousins abusing them financially. So I want
7:06
Speaker 1: to kind of talk to you about what you believe
7:08
Speaker 1: are the biggest misconceptions about financial abuse. What does that
7:12
Speaker 1: actually look like because I think so many times, especially
7:16
Speaker 1: if we have the privilege of never having experienced that,
7:19
Speaker 1: we just don't assume, like we just don't get it,
7:22
Speaker 1: and it's not really the reality of this situation, right.
7:26
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think you know, there are a lot
7:28
Speaker 4: of misconceptions around what financial abuse is, but also what
7:32
Speaker 4: it isn't. It's very much a hidden epidemic still, certainly
7:36
Speaker 4: you know in Australia and probably globally as well, which
7:40
Speaker 4: really just means it's not very well understood. There's an
7:43
Speaker 4: estimated ninety percent of people who seek support for other
7:46
Speaker 4: forms of family and domestic violence who also say that
7:49
Speaker 4: they've been affected by financial law what's sometimes called economic abuse.
7:54
Speaker 4: Yet people just don't recognize the science, and that's because
7:58
Speaker 4: there's just a lack of awareness about what it is.
8:00
Speaker 4: So when you talk about someone restricting or accessing another
8:05
Speaker 4: person's access to money, be that their partner or a
8:09
Speaker 4: family member, we might view them as sort of being
8:12
Speaker 4: a bit of a bad actor or acting in an
8:15
Speaker 4: inappropriate way, but we rarely, very rarely think about it
8:19
Speaker 4: as a form of actual abuse. Yet it really is
8:23
Speaker 4: a form of family and domestic violence. And so how
8:29
Speaker 4: do we dispel some of the misconceptions, right, because there's
8:32
Speaker 4: nothing wrong with one person in a relationship managing money, right,
8:35
Speaker 4: Let's be clear about that. That in itself is not
8:38
Speaker 4: financial abuse. But if one person is managing all of
8:42
Speaker 4: the money in a relationship but not consulting with the
8:45
Speaker 4: other person and that they don't have a say in
8:47
Speaker 4: that decision, that then becomes a potentially abusive situation. And
8:53
Speaker 4: so what we're really looking at here is someone deliberately
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Speaker 4: using money or other resources to gain power and control
9:02
Speaker 4: over someone else. It's all about the power dynamic between individuals.
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Speaker 4: So that could be you know, not being allowed to
9:08
Speaker 4: be able to make decisions about how your household income
9:11
Speaker 4: is spent. It could be being denied money for basic expenses.
9:16
Speaker 4: It could be being forced to take out alone in
9:18
Speaker 4: your name. And the reason that we often use a
9:21
Speaker 4: term perpetrator or user of violence is because it's not
9:24
Speaker 4: an accident. You know, We're not talking about someone accidentally
9:28
Speaker 4: using the joint account for a large personal expense. We're
9:31
Speaker 4: talking about a choice that one person makes to use
9:35
Speaker 4: money to control their partner or ex partner. And I
9:39
Speaker 4: think probably the last thing, you know, common misconception is
9:43
Speaker 4: that it's just women who can experience financial abuse. It
9:47
Speaker 4: is largely a gendered issue, which means, you know, women
9:49
Speaker 4: are predominantly affected, but you know, men can be affected
9:53
Speaker 4: by financial abuse too, And certainly we know that people
9:57
Speaker 4: in the LGBTQA plus community, people in same sex relationships
10:02
Speaker 4: are in fact even more likely to be impacted by
10:05
Speaker 4: financial abuse than people in heterosexual relationships. And I think
10:08
Speaker 4: that's not known, and so a lot of men who
10:11
Speaker 4: may experience this form of abuse kind of minimize it
10:14
Speaker 4: and don't realize it's an issue because we just don't
10:17
Speaker 4: speak about it.
10:18
Speaker 1: It's really heartbreaking, actually, because when I have conversations in
10:22
Speaker 1: our communities, sometimes they just start off as what, you know,
10:25
Speaker 1: the person messaging me, my assume is relatively innocent, and
10:29
Speaker 1: they'll say, oh, hey, they I was just wondering, like
10:31
Speaker 1: my boyfriend does X, Y and Z, and I was
10:34
Speaker 1: just wondering, like is this normal? Or should I ask
10:36
Speaker 1: him in a different way? Or he doesn't let me
10:39
Speaker 1: have access to my money because he says that I'm
10:41
Speaker 1: really bad at it, and I just I don't think
10:42
Speaker 1: I'm that bad at And you kind of have to
10:45
Speaker 1: dig a little bit deeper, ask a few questions, and
10:47
Speaker 1: then it's really hard to say, hey, I don't know
10:50
Speaker 1: how to tell you this in you know, a lighter way.
10:53
Speaker 1: But what's occurring is actually financial abuse and we need
10:56
Speaker 1: to deal with that. And I think a lot of
10:58
Speaker 1: the time that can be really fronting because we have
11:01
Speaker 1: this misconception in our head that abuse is physical or
11:04
Speaker 1: it's verbal, not that it could be financial. I think
11:07
Speaker 1: to us, you just go, no, that's not it, like
11:09
Speaker 1: he's just better at money, or you know, he thinks
11:11
Speaker 1: he's better at money, and you just don't consider how
11:14
Speaker 1: that works. And I just think, to me, that's heartbreaking
11:19
Speaker 1: and sadly it is nothing new. Can we talk about
11:22
Speaker 1: I guess how the modern world? I feel so old
11:25
Speaker 1: saying that. But how does technology play into this? Because
11:29
Speaker 1: I feel like historically it was, you know, you got
11:32
Speaker 1: your pay sleep and you went home and a lot
11:34
Speaker 1: of things were done in cash and you might not
11:36
Speaker 1: have had cash. But it's also a technological issue these days.
11:41
Speaker 1: What role has technology been playing in making things, sadly
11:45
Speaker 1: more prevalent?
11:46
Speaker 4: Technology has many advantages and I sure we'll get onto
11:50
Speaker 4: that in a moment, but with sort of the rise
11:53
Speaker 4: and increase in digital banking, and other forms of technology
11:57
Speaker 4: comes new forms of abuse. I would say is that
12:02
Speaker 4: users of violence or perpetrators are very very smart at
12:05
Speaker 4: understanding and using technology in a way that it was
12:10
Speaker 4: never intended or designed to be used and to control, track, stock,
12:15
Speaker 4: and intimidate people. So there's a whole new term, right
12:18
Speaker 4: that's called technology facilitated abuse, which speaks specifically to how
12:24
Speaker 4: technology can be used as a form of controlling behavior.
12:28
Speaker 4: Now that's sort of broader than just the banking or
12:31
Speaker 4: financial context, so it can include everything from forbidding someone
12:36
Speaker 4: from having a mobile phone, limiting who they can contact.
12:40
Speaker 4: It could be making continuous or controlling threats, or phone
12:44
Speaker 4: calls to someone or text messages with the sole purpose
12:47
Speaker 4: of sort of harassing or stalking them. We see instances
12:52
Speaker 4: of people being forced to take photos of where they are,
12:55
Speaker 4: to disclose their location to prove that they are when
12:58
Speaker 4: they say they are, also surveillance and stalking, and I
13:02
Speaker 4: think that's one of the primary concerns from a banking
13:05
Speaker 4: and tech perspective that we have and a lot of
13:08
Speaker 4: people seeking help for other forms of family and domestic violence,
13:12
Speaker 4: A very high percentage of those individuals when they go
13:16
Speaker 4: into a safe house, or they seek support from a
13:19
Speaker 4: community organization, discover that there is some sort of surveillance
13:23
Speaker 4: technology on either their phone or their car. Now, when
13:26
Speaker 4: it comes to banking, that can be particularly dangerous because
13:30
Speaker 4: if someone's got access to your phone, they also have
13:34
Speaker 4: access to your online banking. So even if you follow
13:37
Speaker 4: all the steps that a financial institution will tell you
13:39
Speaker 4: to do to secure your banking, like changing your passwords
13:43
Speaker 4: or using different types of multi factor authentication, if someone
13:48
Speaker 4: has spyware on your device and you don't know it,
13:50
Speaker 4: you can change your password as many times as you want,
13:53
Speaker 4: and that person is still going to be able to
13:55
Speaker 4: access your finances or your location. Some recent really disturbing
14:00
Speaker 4: trends of people misusing what we call the transaction field
14:04
Speaker 4: in a banking transfer. So if I were to send
14:06
Speaker 4: you money, I've seen this in our community. It's wild, absolutely,
14:11
Speaker 4: and it's not the kind of terminology you'd expect, right,
14:15
Speaker 4: So not only people using profanity in those description fields,
14:20
Speaker 4: which you know is relatively easy to block, it's very
14:23
Speaker 4: nuanced language that is relevant only to the person receiving it.
14:28
Speaker 4: So you know, have you checked that the dogs are
14:30
Speaker 4: still outside today?
14:32
Speaker 2: Right?
14:32
Speaker 4: Might just seem like an innocent question, you know to
14:35
Speaker 4: most people, but if you know that your partner or
14:38
Speaker 4: ex partner has made threats against the safety of your animals,
14:41
Speaker 4: that then becomes a really intimidating message to receive. And
14:45
Speaker 4: you know, we review, I think in my team alone,
14:48
Speaker 4: about fifteen hundred high risk cases a year where we're
14:51
Speaker 4: concerned about the safety of the individuals, and in most
14:55
Speaker 4: of those cases there may be you know, anti violence
14:58
Speaker 4: orders in place against the person, no contact order. Now,
15:02
Speaker 4: you can change your address, you can change your phone number,
15:05
Speaker 4: you can block someone off social media. Interestingly, one of
15:09
Speaker 4: the things that you actually can't do is stop someone
15:12
Speaker 4: from sending you money if they have your BSB an
15:15
Speaker 4: account number. And you know, in intimate partner relationships, it
15:19
Speaker 4: could be that you have children together, right, and you
15:21
Speaker 4: need child support payments, and if the only way to
15:24
Speaker 4: get child support payments is for those payments to come
15:26
Speaker 4: from your partner or ex partner, then you are leaving
15:30
Speaker 4: them an open field of communication to be able to
15:32
Speaker 4: send you know, harassing, stalking, or threatening messages. So that's
15:35
Speaker 4: just one way that we see technology increasing the risk
15:40
Speaker 4: for people experiencing some forms of financial abuse.
15:43
Speaker 1: What do we do if we're in that situation. I've
15:45
Speaker 1: seen it pop up a couple of times in our community.
15:48
Speaker 1: And for those of you who thankfully might not know
15:50
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, we sometimes see people who have
15:55
Speaker 1: been blocked on every single account and they can't call you,
15:58
Speaker 1: they can't message you, they don't have your email, they
16:00
Speaker 1: don't have your address. They'll transfer one cent with threatening messages,
16:04
Speaker 1: and we've seen it where it's hundreds of messages a day,
16:07
Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes just a message here and there to let
16:11
Speaker 1: you know that they're still around. And it's a very
16:15
Speaker 1: large form of abuse. But what can we do, Caroline,
16:18
Speaker 1: Because I feel like in those situations, a lot of
16:21
Speaker 1: people throw their hands up and go, I'm helpless here,
16:24
Speaker 1: like I don't know what to do now, like I
16:25
Speaker 1: thought I'd done absolutely everything I could. Who do we
16:28
Speaker 1: talk to? What do we do? Where do we go?
16:31
Speaker 2: Yet?
16:31
Speaker 4: Great, great question, And it depends on the situation you're on.
16:34
Speaker 4: And what I would say to anyone experiencing any form
16:37
Speaker 4: of financial abuse or other forms of abuse is you're
16:41
Speaker 4: the one who knows your situation the best right and
16:43
Speaker 4: what is safe for you to do. If it's not
16:46
Speaker 4: safe for you to take action, then obviously you need
16:50
Speaker 4: to be you know, make that decision yourself. If you
16:53
Speaker 4: don't need money from the person who's sending you abuse,
16:57
Speaker 4: you can contact your bank. Most banks now across Australia
17:01
Speaker 4: have programs in place to help people experiencing this form
17:04
Speaker 4: of abuse, So I'd say first and foremost approach your
17:06
Speaker 4: bank can tell them what's happening. There are some circumstances
17:10
Speaker 4: where actually you may want those descriptions as evidence of
17:15
Speaker 4: a breach of an anti violence order right and if
17:17
Speaker 4: that's the case, you might not want them to stop
17:20
Speaker 4: because that might be the only evidence that you have
17:23
Speaker 4: that your perpetrator is trying to contact you in breaching
17:25
Speaker 4: and AVIO. So in those cases, you can still let
17:27
Speaker 4: your bank know just what you're experiencing, but that you
17:30
Speaker 4: don't want any action taken for the time being because
17:32
Speaker 4: you are using that as evidence of part of a
17:36
Speaker 4: broader police investigation. If you do want that abuse to stop,
17:39
Speaker 4: there's a couple of options. Most banks can set up
17:42
Speaker 4: what's called safe bank accounts, which is a brand new
17:45
Speaker 4: bank account with a different you know, BSB and account number.
17:48
Speaker 4: You can also look at getting an account number where
17:51
Speaker 4: the BSB doesn't show your location. So for many people
17:55
Speaker 4: don't know the BSB code before your account number at
18:00
Speaker 4: stands for whatever branch your account is opened in. So
18:04
Speaker 4: if you've opened an account in person, there is a
18:06
Speaker 4: unique code which you'll tell you you know where that
18:08
Speaker 4: account is, like home to your domicel too.
18:11
Speaker 1: That's so smart. That's something I literally never thought about.
18:15
Speaker 1: And I know that my BSB is my local bank
18:17
Speaker 1: account or like my local suburb of where my parents live,
18:21
Speaker 1: because that's where I opened my first bank account when
18:24
Speaker 1: I got my first job, and I hadn't thought about it.
18:26
Speaker 4: But it can disclose your location. Yeah, so especially if
18:29
Speaker 4: you've moved and you want to keep your address a
18:31
Speaker 4: secret and you don't want someone to know what area
18:34
Speaker 4: you're living in. You can open your account online. So
18:37
Speaker 4: most of the time when you open an account online,
18:40
Speaker 4: depending on your bank, you get a digital BSB which
18:43
Speaker 4: can't be tracked to a particular location as opposed to
18:46
Speaker 4: doing it in a branch.
18:47
Speaker 1: That's really smart.
18:47
Speaker 4: If your tech is being surveiled and you do need
18:50
Speaker 4: to go to a branch, let them know and they
18:52
Speaker 4: can open one, often with a different BSB that you
18:56
Speaker 4: might be Victoria or in Queensland, so that you know
18:59
Speaker 4: you can't be tracked to that location, so you consider
19:02
Speaker 4: up a safe bank account that way, and that way
19:04
Speaker 4: your perpetrator doesn't have your account details, so they can't
19:08
Speaker 4: send you money. Now, that won't work if you need
19:11
Speaker 4: money from the person, so if you do need to
19:14
Speaker 4: keep receiving money. Unfortunately, there's a whole load of background
19:19
Speaker 4: regulation that means your bank can't actually hide the description
19:24
Speaker 4: that is sent with a transfer, but what they can
19:26
Speaker 4: do is take action in many cases. So I know
19:29
Speaker 4: at least probably about ten or more banks across Australia
19:33
Speaker 4: will send warning letters to people who are misusing banking
19:36
Speaker 4: platforms in this way, and they all have terms and
19:39
Speaker 4: conditions which say it's unacceptable behavior, and so they can
19:43
Speaker 4: send a warning letter to the person to say, look,
19:45
Speaker 4: we've noticed in behavior on your account that's in breach
19:48
Speaker 4: of the bank's terms and conditions. Please see so otherwise
19:51
Speaker 4: you know, we may take further action if that continues.
19:54
Speaker 4: I know, certainly for the bank that I work at,
19:56
Speaker 4: we can actually remove someone's access to digital banking so
19:59
Speaker 4: that the can't send a description with a transfer. They
20:02
Speaker 4: can still set up an automated payment, but they don't
20:04
Speaker 4: get the option to add that description into the description field.
20:09
Speaker 4: And you know, in some cases, you know, if the
20:11
Speaker 4: abuse continues and it is causing severe harm to the
20:15
Speaker 4: victim and it's possible to do so, a bank may
20:17
Speaker 4: actually look at closing that customer's account because it really
20:20
Speaker 4: is no place for abuse. And you know, all of
20:23
Speaker 4: the industry is very clear on taking a stance against
20:26
Speaker 4: financial abuse in this way.
20:28
Speaker 1: I really like that it's across the industry. Like I know,
20:32
Speaker 1: when CBA approached me, and she's on the money to
20:35
Speaker 1: work together to talk about this topic because it is
20:37
Speaker 1: so important. One of the things that I was like
20:39
Speaker 1: was like, look, I really want to talk about this topic,
20:42
Speaker 1: but I don't want to align to a specific bank
20:44
Speaker 1: on it because it's an international issue. It's not just
20:47
Speaker 1: an issue that one bank is dealing with. I think
20:49
Speaker 1: my favorite thing is that CBA is like, no, no, no,
20:51
Speaker 1: we'll help anyone who's with any bank, Like, we're just
20:53
Speaker 1: here out we just want to get rid of this.
20:56
Speaker 1: Is that something one I feel like that's very different
21:00
Speaker 1: to the way a lot of banks and a lot
21:01
Speaker 1: of the industry work, right they go, oh, well, we
21:04
Speaker 1: offer ABC and D for our customers. And CBA is
21:07
Speaker 1: a bit different. They are offering this help for literally
21:11
Speaker 1: anybody who needs it. How was that decision made, Because
21:15
Speaker 1: that's not a small decision, that's a that's a massive undertaking.
21:20
Speaker 4: CBA have always had a position and a lot of
21:22
Speaker 4: the industry you have the same position, right, which is
21:25
Speaker 4: that tackling the issue of financial abuse is not an
21:28
Speaker 4: area of competitive advantage for the bank or for any bank.
21:32
Speaker 4: And if we, as the largest organization at CBA in Australia,
21:36
Speaker 4: have the resourcing data capability to be able to identify
21:41
Speaker 4: and proactively put support measures in place, then we want
21:44
Speaker 4: to make sure that we are sharing that with organizations
21:46
Speaker 4: who don't have the same size and scale that we do.
21:50
Speaker 4: And so we made a decision from everything from how
21:53
Speaker 4: we detect this form of abuse. We use AI to
21:57
Speaker 4: try and detect this form of abuse, which picks up
21:59
Speaker 4: that nuance messaging that doesn't just contain profanity, right. We
22:03
Speaker 4: actually put that on a platform called GitHub and made
22:05
Speaker 4: it open source so that any bank.
22:07
Speaker 1: Can pick up that model.
22:08
Speaker 4: I love yeah and put it into their own data
22:11
Speaker 4: sets to use the same sort of algorithms and the
22:15
Speaker 4: same machine learning that we had developed over sort of
22:19
Speaker 4: eighteen months to detect this form of abuse, and we've
22:22
Speaker 4: had conversation with banks in England, We've had conversations with
22:26
Speaker 4: banks in Canada who are also starting to see platforms
22:29
Speaker 4: being misused in this way, to say, hey, look we've
22:32
Speaker 4: done the work right. We've spent two three years looking
22:34
Speaker 4: at this issue, developing solutions and technology to detect it.
22:40
Speaker 4: So why don't we make that available? And the same
22:43
Speaker 4: goes for our support services. Predominantly, you know, our specialist
22:47
Speaker 4: family in domestic violence and financial abuse teams do support
22:50
Speaker 4: our own customers, but you know, not every one banks
22:54
Speaker 4: or a particular bank, or if you want a safe account.
22:56
Speaker 4: What we also recommend, by the way, is if you
22:59
Speaker 4: are experiencing financial abuse and you want to regain control
23:03
Speaker 4: of your financial independence, the best way to do that
23:06
Speaker 4: is to set up an account that your perpetrator doesn't
23:09
Speaker 4: bank with. So if you're a CBA customer, you know,
23:12
Speaker 4: find a different bank, if you're with one of the
23:14
Speaker 4: other Big four, you know, pick a different bank to
23:16
Speaker 4: have your safe account with, just to ensure that there
23:20
Speaker 4: is you know, absolutely no way that that person can access.
23:23
Speaker 1: It's such a clean bay.
23:25
Speaker 4: Get access to your banking services, so if we can
23:28
Speaker 4: do anything to try and tackle the issue as an industry.
23:32
Speaker 4: We're all very much in agreement that it's an industry
23:34
Speaker 4: issue and that we want to work together to try
23:36
Speaker 4: and solve for it.
23:37
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. And I just I really like
23:40
Speaker 1: obviously the idea of collaboration over competition in a space
23:45
Speaker 1: that it shouldn't even be a conversation, like it should
23:48
Speaker 1: just be like, wow, this makes sense. But you can
23:50
Speaker 1: also go you know, from a business perspective, right, you
23:53
Speaker 1: would look at it and be like, well, CBA spent
23:55
Speaker 1: literally millions of dollars creating this code and creating this plan,
24:00
Speaker 1: and then they're just giving it away. I think that
24:02
Speaker 1: says a lot to how serious they are about stamping
24:05
Speaker 1: this out and how serious they are about, you know,
24:08
Speaker 1: making sure that everybody has financial freedom and everybody isn't
24:12
Speaker 1: constrained by this, because, I mean, abuse comes in so
24:15
Speaker 1: many different forms, but financial abuse is something that is
24:18
Speaker 1: really nuanced. It's really it can be quite sneaky, and
24:22
Speaker 1: the people that are using financial abuse as a way
24:26
Speaker 1: to get to their victim, you could say they are
24:29
Speaker 1: very sneaky, and it does involve a lot more deep
24:32
Speaker 1: diving than just you know, having keywords come up. So Caroline,
24:36
Speaker 1: let's go to a really quick break on the flip side.
24:38
Speaker 1: I have a few other things I want to talk
24:40
Speaker 1: to you about, specifically around how do we identify that
24:43
Speaker 1: we might be in a financial abusive relationship if we
24:46
Speaker 1: are arming and erring, about whether that's something that we
24:49
Speaker 1: are in, And I kind of want to know about
24:51
Speaker 1: how we can help ourselves or help others. So guys,
24:54
Speaker 1: don't go anywhere, all right, guys, we are back, and
25:01
Speaker 1: today I have the absolute privilege of having a chat
25:04
Speaker 1: with Carolyn Wall who's from CBA, but she has devoted
25:07
Speaker 1: her entire life's work to identifying and ending financial abuse,
25:11
Speaker 1: which is something that I am also wildly passionate about
25:15
Speaker 1: and think we need to give a lot more airtime
25:17
Speaker 1: too that Caroline, I want to talk now about how
25:20
Speaker 1: we identify the signs of financial abuse because they're often
25:24
Speaker 1: not that clear. It's not something that you know, often
25:27
Speaker 1: our friends can pick up sadly, and it's not something
25:30
Speaker 1: that we often want to I would say, admit to,
25:33
Speaker 1: because it can be really hard to admit to that
25:36
Speaker 1: or you know, really identify that. So I want to
25:39
Speaker 1: get into it. Now, what are the signs that someone
25:42
Speaker 1: might be in a financially abusive relationship.
25:45
Speaker 4: It's really difficult sometimes, as you said, to identify a
25:49
Speaker 4: situation when you're in it, and that's especially true for
25:52
Speaker 4: something like financial abuse, because what we often see is
25:56
Speaker 4: it's starting as what seems to be relatively innocent actions, right.
26:02
Speaker 4: That could be anything from you know, a partner suggesting
26:05
Speaker 4: that you open a joint account and put both of
26:08
Speaker 4: your incomes into the joint account. Again, on its own,
26:10
Speaker 4: not an issue, but then you know, you see, you know,
26:13
Speaker 4: slightly less innocent looking requests, Well, could you just take
26:17
Speaker 4: this loan out in your name because I've got bad
26:19
Speaker 4: credit and they might, you know, deny me for this loan.
26:22
Speaker 1: I'll pay it back.
26:23
Speaker 4: I just you know, need you to have your name
26:25
Speaker 4: on the application, or or why don't you stop working
26:29
Speaker 4: so that you can take better care of the kids
26:31
Speaker 4: and I'll go out and do the work, and then
26:33
Speaker 4: you know, I can just give you an allowance for
26:36
Speaker 4: daily expenses. While some of those individual innostances may not be,
26:42
Speaker 4: you know, a problem, what we do see is escalating
26:45
Speaker 4: over time. So some of the things that we would
26:48
Speaker 4: consider red flags would be as I mentioned forcing someone
26:52
Speaker 4: to take out debts in their own name that they're
26:54
Speaker 4: getting no benefit from. We also see per portrayers taking
26:59
Speaker 4: out in someone else's name without their knowledge.
27:02
Speaker 1: Yes, we had a money diarist where that happened, and
27:06
Speaker 1: she was the most beautiful human being. She had more
27:09
Speaker 1: than one hundred and thirty thousand dollars worth of debt
27:11
Speaker 1: taken out in her name. And it's an interesting conversation.
27:15
Speaker 1: Sorry to completely like sidestep this, but I think it's
27:18
Speaker 1: so relevant. But when we spoke to her, I think
27:21
Speaker 1: a lot of people would have been listening along, going,
27:24
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, go to the police, get rid of it, like,
27:26
Speaker 1: you know, put it all back in his name. And
27:29
Speaker 1: when we spoke to her, she said, look, I'm just
27:31
Speaker 1: so over it. I made a plan and I paid
27:33
Speaker 1: all of that debt off on my own because I
27:36
Speaker 1: just didn't want to have to go through the trauma of,
27:38
Speaker 1: you know, getting through that. You see it a lot,
27:41
Speaker 1: But I feel like a lot of us would be
27:43
Speaker 1: listening to this and going, well, that's not the right
27:45
Speaker 1: thing to do. You should definitely seek help, and you
27:48
Speaker 1: should seek help, We should get support. But the person
27:50
Speaker 1: who knows best is the person in that situation. It's
27:54
Speaker 1: often like when you hear about an abusive situation, you go, well, Caroline,
27:58
Speaker 1: why didn't you just leave? It's not the answer, Like
28:01
Speaker 1: often the answer needs to come from how that person
28:04
Speaker 1: feels the safest and how that person you know, thinks
28:07
Speaker 1: that they are. The other person might react because it's
28:10
Speaker 1: all about staying safe and putting yourself in the best
28:12
Speaker 1: possible position. And sometimes that looks a lot different to
28:15
Speaker 1: what people might think is the best thing. And that's
28:18
Speaker 1: what we say, right So, going back to misconceptions, that's
28:22
Speaker 1: another great misconception, right, Well, why didn't you just leave
28:25
Speaker 1: when you found out about it or when they denied
28:27
Speaker 1: your access to money? Why didn't you leave at that point?
28:30
Speaker 1: And it's really not that simple. There are so many
28:34
Speaker 1: hurdles to leaving an abusive relationship. I mean, even if
28:38
Speaker 1: you think about, you know, a relationship breakdown of a
28:41
Speaker 1: healthy relationship, once you combine money with your partner, it's
28:44
Speaker 1: incredibly difficult to disentangle who owns what, who gets what
28:48
Speaker 1: share of what, And that's in a healthy relationship. You
28:51
Speaker 1: then add sort of layers of coercive control, threats, intimidation,
28:56
Speaker 1: you know, fear, of retribution, and it becomes incredibly difficult
29:01
Speaker 1: to see a pathway out, especially where financial abuse you know,
29:05
Speaker 1: is concerned, or if you've got dependence, because how do
29:08
Speaker 1: you leave if you don't have your own bank account?
29:10
Speaker 1: How do you leave if the only access to money
29:13
Speaker 1: that you have is in a joint account that your
29:16
Speaker 1: partner or ex partner has. The only card to leaving
29:19
Speaker 1: is easy if you've got money, but if your money
29:21
Speaker 1: is being controlled, it becomes even harder for you to
29:25
Speaker 1: leave because you are so tangled up and interdependent with
29:28
Speaker 1: that person on finances that often it seems like there
29:32
Speaker 1: is no safe way out. So yeah, it's definitely not
29:35
Speaker 1: as easy as as just leaving even when you see
29:38
Speaker 1: some of these red flags, and there's a few, right
29:42
Speaker 1: you know, and they also depend on your background, so
29:45
Speaker 1: you know, if you are from a migrant and refugee background,
29:48
Speaker 1: that becomes harder still, right, And we see cases across
29:52
Speaker 1: the bank and banking industry of the weaponization of everything
29:57
Speaker 1: from visas. So if you over to this country and
30:01
Speaker 1: you're not on a permanent residence visa or you don't
30:04
Speaker 1: have citizenship, your visa status becomes another way that someone
30:08
Speaker 1: can exert control over you. You know, if you don't do
30:11
Speaker 1: what I say, then I'm going to report you to
30:14
Speaker 1: the authorities, or I'm going to withdraw financial support for
30:17
Speaker 1: your visa. And that's terrifying, absolutely, Like that's terrifying because
30:23
Speaker 1: often you've left that circumstance because it's dangerous in the
30:27
Speaker 1: first place, and now you're in a dangerous one here
30:29
Speaker 1: and you're just a rock and a hard place because
30:31
Speaker 1: you don't want to go home, but you also don't want.
30:33
Speaker 4: To be where you are, like and then you add
30:35
Speaker 4: language barriers to that and cultural barriers, like you know,
30:38
Speaker 4: I think people find it difficult to navigate the financial system,
30:43
Speaker 4: you know, in Western countries, even if you're born and.
30:45
Speaker 1: Grow up here.
30:47
Speaker 4: You then add, you know, people who were born overseas
30:50
Speaker 4: and who have very different financial systems from the one
30:53
Speaker 4: that we have in Australia. You know, a lot of
30:55
Speaker 4: people don't know the difference between debit and credit. So
30:58
Speaker 4: we say, oh, we just make sure you don't sign
31:00
Speaker 4: anything that you don't understand. But if someone's explaining something
31:04
Speaker 4: to you and they're your partner and they're saying, well,
31:06
Speaker 4: this is what it is, and they're not being truthful
31:08
Speaker 4: or that you don't have an understanding of the difference
31:11
Speaker 4: between debit and credit. You know, that then becomes even
31:14
Speaker 4: harder for people as well.
31:16
Speaker 1: And that to me is the most heartbreaking part about
31:19
Speaker 1: it because often, and you know, as you were saying before,
31:23
Speaker 1: everyone can experience financial abuse, but sadly it's predominantly women.
31:28
Speaker 1: But often as women, we go, oh, they would know better,
31:32
Speaker 1: or yeah, I don't really understand that, And I don't
31:35
Speaker 1: really want to put my hand up because it's a
31:37
Speaker 1: bit embarrassing that I don't know the difference between that.
31:39
Speaker 1: When it's not embarrassing, it's a language you've never learned,
31:42
Speaker 1: it's a conversation you've never had. Why would you know?
31:45
Speaker 1: But to me, I just go This is where the
31:47
Speaker 1: power of financial literacy comes into it, having an understanding of,
31:52
Speaker 1: you know, what these things are at a base level.
31:54
Speaker 1: I often talk on our show about how if you
31:57
Speaker 1: want to live in a relationship where your partner does
31:59
Speaker 1: all the fine and it's things, because it's just not
32:01
Speaker 1: for you. I love that for you, But what I
32:04
Speaker 1: want you to do is be fully able to always
32:06
Speaker 1: access those accounts. They want you to be able to
32:09
Speaker 1: know how to pay a bill when it comes time
32:11
Speaker 1: to being able to do that. So many times I
32:14
Speaker 1: have sat down with women who I had one particular
32:17
Speaker 1: case where this woman was incredibly wealthy. Her partner was
32:22
Speaker 1: worth millions, but she didn't understand a thing. All she
32:27
Speaker 1: knew was that she had an amex and a credit
32:29
Speaker 1: card and he paid it off every month, and she
32:31
Speaker 1: was the stay at home mum of their five kids,
32:34
Speaker 1: and they had a very very nice life. But when
32:36
Speaker 1: it came time to leaving that relationship, she had no
32:40
Speaker 1: idea how. And it wasn't financially abusive, but the finances
32:44
Speaker 1: were what was constraining her. And I sat down and said, okay, cool,
32:47
Speaker 1: where are your bank accounts? So she's like THEE, I
32:49
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't even know if we have bank accounts,
32:52
Speaker 1: you know, with CBA or with NAB or with you know,
32:55
Speaker 1: one of the other banks. Like I wouldn't have a clue.
32:57
Speaker 1: All I know is that I put all our expenses
32:59
Speaker 1: on this credit card and it gets paid off. And
33:02
Speaker 1: so it was like starting from absolute scratch. So this
33:05
Speaker 1: type of conversation and financial abuse isn't just for people
33:10
Speaker 1: who don't have lots of money and are controlled by
33:12
Speaker 1: it in that way. Money can be controlling at any level.
33:15
Speaker 1: And I think that that's something that's also a massive
33:17
Speaker 1: misconception that financial abuse is a problem when you don't
33:21
Speaker 1: have lots of money.
33:22
Speaker 4: No, it's definitely. We see it across all different socioeconomic backgrounds.
33:28
Speaker 4: You can have private bank accounts and a private banker
33:31
Speaker 4: and still be at risk of financial abuse. And sometimes
33:34
Speaker 4: the more assets and the more money that you have,
33:36
Speaker 4: the greater the risk. Right, because while most perpetrators are
33:40
Speaker 4: not actually driven by the money, just to say they're
33:43
Speaker 4: driven by using money to control someone.
33:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't actually care about the dollars. They care
33:49
Speaker 1: about the fact that they've still got you under their
33:52
Speaker 1: thumb and they want to be able to do that.
33:54
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's disgusting. And I think that it's really
33:59
Speaker 1: adrob Or how much work you're doing in this space.
34:01
Speaker 1: I mean, it's your entire career. And to me, the
34:03
Speaker 1: just it speaks volumes that a bank would employ someone
34:07
Speaker 1: to do this to make sure that we're okay. It
34:10
Speaker 1: makes me really happy that this is something that we're
34:13
Speaker 1: working more on. If we're listening to this and going
34:16
Speaker 1: through this maybe ourselves and we're like, oh, that's a
34:18
Speaker 1: couple of red flags that have come up, I'm feeling
34:20
Speaker 1: a bit uncomfortable, or you're maybe going, oh, that's a friend,
34:23
Speaker 1: or that's a family member, or that's you know, someone
34:25
Speaker 1: I work with. How do we start to help ourselves? Like,
34:30
Speaker 1: where can we access help? What are things that we
34:32
Speaker 1: can do for ourselves that put us in the best
34:35
Speaker 1: possible position for ourselves or for you know, our community.
34:39
Speaker 4: Firstly, I'd say just like to acknowledge that anyone experiencing
34:44
Speaker 4: financial abuse, you know, it can feel very frightening and isolating.
34:49
Speaker 4: So if you know, and perpetrators will deliberately cut off
34:52
Speaker 4: access often to your friends and families to create that
34:56
Speaker 4: sense of isolation and that sense of dependency on some
35:00
Speaker 4: someone else. So if you think you are experiencing financial abuse,
35:04
Speaker 4: you recognize any of these signs of abuse, it's often
35:07
Speaker 4: really helpful to have a conversation with someone you trust
35:09
Speaker 4: to start with, even before you think about going to
35:12
Speaker 4: any specialist services, because experiencing this form of abuse is real.
35:17
Speaker 4: And if you're told that you're paranoid or that you're
35:20
Speaker 4: making things up, or you know, I'm just managing the
35:23
Speaker 4: money because it's in your best interest and I'm doing
35:25
Speaker 4: what's right for you. You can end up second guessing
35:29
Speaker 4: or questioning yourself and saying, well, actually, maybe it's not
35:32
Speaker 4: that bad, right, but it is. So i'd say, first
35:35
Speaker 4: and foremost, trust yourself. Trust what you're experiencing is real,
35:40
Speaker 4: and it's really crucial at that time to sort of
35:42
Speaker 4: get as many people around you a support people around
35:44
Speaker 4: you as possible, and it can be as simple as
35:48
Speaker 4: having a conversation. So the same goes if you know
35:50
Speaker 4: someone experiencing financial abuse, don't be scared to have a
35:53
Speaker 4: conversation with them. You don't need to have all of
35:57
Speaker 4: the answers, you don't need to be an expert in
35:59
Speaker 4: financial abuse. You just have to have a gentle conversation
36:03
Speaker 4: and encourage someone to get the support that they need.
36:06
Speaker 4: And that conversation could be a conversation that changes someone's life.
36:10
Speaker 4: So don't be too scared to sort of reach out
36:12
Speaker 4: and have that conversation if you're experiencing financial abuse, first
36:16
Speaker 4: and foremost. If you're not feeling safe, always culturriple zero.
36:20
Speaker 4: As you said at the beginning of this show, the
36:22
Speaker 4: other service that we always recommend is as you mentioned,
36:25
Speaker 4: one eight hundred respect and the reason that we do.
36:27
Speaker 4: That is because there are a lot of support services
36:30
Speaker 4: available across Australia and they may be regional, they may
36:33
Speaker 4: be state based, you know, they may be national services
36:36
Speaker 4: and it can be very overwhelming to try and identify
36:40
Speaker 4: what service is the right service for you. So one
36:43
Speaker 4: eight hundred Respect will be able to give you information
36:46
Speaker 4: about your local services. They also have you know, translating
36:49
Speaker 4: and interpreting services available if English isn't your first language,
36:53
Speaker 4: to help you navigate those systems.
36:55
Speaker 1: And they're beautiful human beings as well. I think something
36:58
Speaker 1: that when you know, I don't know, I feel like
37:01
Speaker 1: it's a hurdle for a lot of people, especially in
37:03
Speaker 1: conversations I've had where if we sat down and you
37:06
Speaker 1: were explaining to me that you were going through this situation,
37:09
Speaker 1: I said, oh, Caroline, I actually think you should call
37:11
Speaker 1: why nine hundred respect. You might go I don't know them,
37:14
Speaker 1: I don't know what they're going to say. I don't
37:15
Speaker 1: know if they're going to be judgmental. But these are
37:17
Speaker 1: beautiful human beings who dedicate their lives to helping you,
37:21
Speaker 1: like that's their entire passion. Like you don't get a
37:24
Speaker 1: job at one eight hundred Respect because you aren't interested
37:27
Speaker 1: in putting people in a better situation. But also they're
37:30
Speaker 1: trained to help you identify one what you're going through,
37:34
Speaker 1: but to the services you need. And even if you
37:36
Speaker 1: don't know what you need, just calling and saying, hey,
37:39
Speaker 1: I really don't know what I need, but I think
37:41
Speaker 1: I need something, they might be able to put you
37:43
Speaker 1: in the best possible position. And they're also a brilliant
37:47
Speaker 1: person or a brilliant group to reach out to when
37:50
Speaker 1: you just don't feel like you want to have a
37:52
Speaker 1: conversation with someone in real life, Like maybe you don't
37:55
Speaker 1: you're not ready to open up to your best friend
37:58
Speaker 1: about this, because these things can feel overwhelming and they
38:02
Speaker 1: aren't embarrassing. I promise you are so smart and you
38:04
Speaker 1: are so educated. It's just something you don't understand. But
38:09
Speaker 1: I think that it's so important to remember that you
38:11
Speaker 1: can reach out to these people and maybe and even
38:13
Speaker 1: have a conversation about, Hey, I just want to have
38:15
Speaker 1: a quick chat about like what I might be able
38:17
Speaker 1: to do. I'm not ready to do it, but I
38:18
Speaker 1: might be able to do it. And also how do
38:20
Speaker 1: I bring it up with my friend if we go
38:21
Speaker 1: out to coffee, Like those are things that these people
38:25
Speaker 1: can help you with and I think so often we
38:27
Speaker 1: just think that things will get really serious if I
38:29
Speaker 1: make that call. Everything is on your terms, it's not
38:33
Speaker 1: on their terms. And as you were saying before, Caroline,
38:36
Speaker 1: you can tell the bank about what's going on and
38:38
Speaker 1: say please don't do anything about it, like the power
38:41
Speaker 1: is in your hands. And I think that when we're
38:42
Speaker 1: going through something like this, we often think that the
38:45
Speaker 1: power is going to be stripped from us if we
38:48
Speaker 1: reach out to somebody else, because they might quote no better.
38:50
Speaker 1: But you are the one who knows the best about
38:53
Speaker 1: this situation, and every single resource is going to be
38:56
Speaker 1: used based on how you think it's going to work
38:58
Speaker 1: for you, not how somebody else thinks it's going to be.
39:02
Speaker 1: You know the best. They're not going to swoop in
39:03
Speaker 1: and change things. They're going to actually help you and
39:06
Speaker 1: put you in the best possible position. And I think
39:08
Speaker 1: that's so important to understand. So, Caroline, are there any
39:11
Speaker 1: other ways that we can reach out? You know, whether
39:14
Speaker 1: we are victim survivors of financial abuse, or we are
39:17
Speaker 1: trying to help our friends and family or people around us.
39:21
Speaker 1: We've got one eight hundred respects. I know that CBA
39:24
Speaker 1: has a brilliant offering. How do we get in contact
39:26
Speaker 1: with CBA and are there any other resources that we
39:29
Speaker 1: should know about?
39:30
Speaker 4: Absolutely? Look, CBA has a program called Next Chapter and
39:34
Speaker 4: that comprises of a number of things including a team
39:37
Speaker 4: of banking specialists. And they're not trained counselors. They are
39:41
Speaker 4: specialists in safe banking options. Now, as we were talking
39:45
Speaker 4: about earlier, we extended that support not just as CBA
39:48
Speaker 4: customers but to anyone across Australia, regardless of who you banquet,
39:52
Speaker 4: and they really can help you understand, you know, how
39:55
Speaker 4: to secure your banking. They can also make referrals to
39:58
Speaker 4: specialist financial organizations, such as a partnership that we have
40:04
Speaker 4: with Good Shepherds called the Financial Independence Hub. Now that
40:07
Speaker 4: might not be right for everyone, but they offer long
40:10
Speaker 4: term financial counseling to help you re establish your independence
40:15
Speaker 4: once you're safe. So they're not a crisis support service,
40:18
Speaker 4: but they are available to help you do things like
40:21
Speaker 4: separate you know, finances to budgets, to provide long term
40:26
Speaker 4: financial counseling options to help you really, you know, understand
40:30
Speaker 4: your finances and get back on track again.
40:33
Speaker 1: Good Shepherd are gorgeous as well. I've done some work
40:36
Speaker 1: with them historically, and I don't think a lot of
40:38
Speaker 1: people know who they are or what they do. But
40:40
Speaker 1: they essentially enable personal agency capability and confidence to you know,
40:46
Speaker 1: help you lead really dignified outcomes when it comes to income,
40:50
Speaker 1: financial health, and wellbeing. And they run you know, financial
40:52
Speaker 1: literacy workshops and they talk about how to set up
40:55
Speaker 1: your banking if you're starting from scratch or even they have.
40:59
Speaker 4: A NILLS I was gonna say great NILS program.
41:02
Speaker 1: They have a NILS program so it's no interest loans,
41:04
Speaker 1: So if you find yourself in a pickle, they can
41:07
Speaker 1: help you either refinance alone that you have and you're
41:10
Speaker 1: struggling with. But NILS is a null interest loan, and
41:13
Speaker 1: you know often there's a lot of like criteria you
41:16
Speaker 1: will need to meet for this. It's not like, oh, hey,
41:19
Speaker 1: I would love a no interest loan because same, but
41:21
Speaker 1: it's more for getting you out of financially pressing situations
41:26
Speaker 1: or making sure that you have access to things that
41:28
Speaker 1: you need. But as you're saying, they're not a emergency service,
41:31
Speaker 1: but they are a beautiful service to know about. I'm
41:34
Speaker 1: obsessed with them, Like the idea that they exist is
41:37
Speaker 1: so so nice. But that alongside next chapter. I think
41:41
Speaker 1: a really good team of people to put you in
41:43
Speaker 1: the best possible position.
41:45
Speaker 4: The only other one i'd probably reference again is if
41:48
Speaker 4: you're in elgbtik plus sort of Rainbow community. Full Stop
41:52
Speaker 4: Australia run a dedicated phone service which is called the
41:55
Speaker 4: Rainbow Sexual, Domestic and Family Violence Helpline. Now they are
42:00
Speaker 4: trained and they are a safe service for people in
42:03
Speaker 4: the community and really understand the unique needs of people
42:07
Speaker 4: in the community when seeking support for farmin and domestic violence,
42:11
Speaker 4: so they're also a great resource to refer to as well.
42:15
Speaker 1: I love that. Oh my gosh, I'm going to make
42:17
Speaker 1: sure you guys don't have to take notes. I'm going
42:19
Speaker 1: to make sure that all of those resources outlined in
42:22
Speaker 1: our show notes with links so that it makes it
42:24
Speaker 1: as easy as possible. But Caroline, it has been so
42:27
Speaker 1: beautiful having this conversation with you. I feel like it's
42:30
Speaker 1: the right step in the right direction when it comes
42:33
Speaker 1: to hoping to end financial abuse. The work that you
42:36
Speaker 1: do is so special, and I think it would be
42:39
Speaker 1: really taxing on you as well to be diving every
42:41
Speaker 1: single day into this situation. But you're putting so many
42:44
Speaker 1: people in better positions. I'm so grateful that we have
42:46
Speaker 1: you in our community and get to share you with everyone.
42:49
Speaker 1: But we'll have you on the show again at some point,
42:51
Speaker 1: hopefully to talk a little bit deeper about this topic,
42:55
Speaker 1: because I think it's something that we really need to
42:57
Speaker 1: deeply understand. But thank you for joining us. It's been
43:00
Speaker 1: a pleasure, and I know that our community is so
43:02
Speaker 1: much better off having had this chat. The advice shared
43:10
Speaker 1: on She's on the Money is general in nature and
43:13
Speaker 1: does not consider your individual circumstances. She's on the Money
43:16
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43:20
Speaker 1: upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you
43:23
Speaker 1: do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS
43:26
Speaker 1: TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs.
43:30
Speaker 1: Victoria Divine and She's on the Money are authorized representatives
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