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Jolly SEO: Greg Heilers on why links still matters · Content, Briefly

• 0:00
  [on-hold music] Hey, and thanks for tuning in to another episode of Content Briefly.
• 0:06
  Today I'm chatting with my friend Greg Healers, who runs a company called Jolly SEO, which provides a service on top of Help a B2B Writer and other similar websites.
• 0:15
  Basically, he and his team will help their clients send pitches to journalists and writers to help them build links, get placements, mentions, publicity, et cetera.
• 0:25
  So our worlds kind of collided a few years ago when Superpath acquired Help a B2B Writer and so anyways, Greg and I have gotten to know each other a little bit during that time, and we use this as an opportunity to talk about the state of SEO, state of link building, how AI is affecting all that, where we think all this is going.
• 0:42
  So anyways, lots to like here. I thought it was really interesting, very different from their kind of normal, more content-focused episodes.
• 0:48
  Before we dive in, one other thing I wanna share is that Superpath Pro is off to a good start in twenty twenty-five.
• 0:54
  So as we announced in the fall and have been doing for a few months now, we're running monthly one-on-ones. We're running monthly socials, which are group calls with breakout sessions.
• 1:04
  We've now added weekly co-working sessions. So we'll schedule time during the week. We're doing it once now. We may end up adding more if people like this, where we're trying to create space for people to get stuff done.
• 1:14
  So you come... If you've done Flow Club before, it's like that, but you show up. We spend the first five minutes, the group talks about their intention for that hour, what they're gonna get done.
• 1:24
  Then we put on some focus music for about fifty minutes. Uh, everybody gets a bunch of work done, and then we report on how we did in the last five minutes.
• 1:33
  So the goal is, like, you're procrastinating on something, you got a big project, you're trying to get something started, like come, like let us help hold you accountable to that and make some serious progress on that.
• 1:43
  So that's a new thing. The feedback on that's been great so far.
• 1:46
  We may end up adding a few more during the week if people like that, as I mentioned, to kind of accommodate different time zones and give people maybe more space to get some real work done.
• 1:54
  So anyways, you can learn more about Superpath Pro if you're not already a member at superpath.co. Okay. Out of the way. Please enjoy this conversation with Greg Healers.
• 2:03
  This episode is brought to you by our friends at Ten Speed. Have you been part of Superpath long enough to know that cranking out blogs doesn't do the trick anymore? SaaS companies can't just, quote, "do SEO."
• 2:14
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• 2:25
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• 2:34
  So partner up with Ten Speed for a complete strategy that fuels your organic growth.
• 2:39
  You can use the link in the show notes to schedule a time to learn more, and make sure you mention Superpath to get one thousand dollars off your first month. Hey, everybody.
• 2:46
  Jimmy from Superpath here today with my friend Greg Healers from Jolly SEO. Uh, Greg, we've known each other for a while.
• 2:53
  We've worked together in a few different ways over the last couple of years, and happy to have you on Content Briefly to, to talk SEO, digital PR, white hat link building, et cetera.
• 3:03
  But before we get into all that, would you mind introducing yourself? Tell us a little bit about who you are and the kind of work you do. Yeah. I'm super grateful to be here, Jimmy.
• 3:11
  I always tell people you did what I should have done. Jimmy bought Help a B2B Writer when I was like, "Is that-- that's a thing? You can do that? Oh, shit. I missed that."
• 3:20
  So I run Jolly SEO with my buddy Morgan Taylor, and like all good things, we kinda stumbled into this outreach space where we use our writing skills.
• 3:31
  And the only real differentiator with us, man, is we don't buy backlinks. Most people think link building, they think paid. That's the only real difference with us.
• 3:40
  Yeah, the quality's up there, but that's a byproduct of the fact that we don't work with most of the websites on the internet.
• 3:46
  You know, there's three hundred-ish thousand out there that we could work with, but we can't with most.
• 3:52
  So that's, that's us in a nutshell, and I'm grateful that we get to, you know, be involved somewhat with Help a B2B and we're big advocates, man. We promote it all over the place. Well, I certainly appreciate that.
• 4:05
  So you-- so clients come to you, and they say, "We wanna do white hat link building. We want digital PR. We want publicity, et cetera."
• 4:15
  You put together a campaign for them where you will do outreach on their behalf using sites like Help a B2B Writer, and I can explain briefly what that is too in case folks are not familiar with that.
• 4:22
  Among-- I mean, there's others, obviously. It's not-- There's, there's- That's right... a few, a few others, and Help a B2B Writer, I imagine, is one of the smaller ones.
• 4:29
  The idea is you're responding to writers who are requesting these folks' expertise, so you help them provide that. Yeah. I mean, digital PR is a catch-all term right now that encompasses what you just described.
• 4:42
  The journalist or marketer is soliciting, requesting these pitches.
• 4:46
  And then there's the other folks, you know, the most well-known right now is Search Intelligence, this guy Ferry, who they're proactively contacting the journalists, more like a classic PR. There's no request out there.
• 4:59
  They're just saying, "Yo, I got this client. They, they know this thing. Are you..." You know, it's a little more targeted than what I just casually described. But so that's digital PR, two, two kinda different angles.
• 5:11
  Uh, you could get more nuanced than the description, but we really like platforms like Help a B2B Writer, mostly for the fact that if done tactfully, you're not sending spam out there.
• 5:23
  These are people who actually want to receive your email. Yeah. Maybe I'll just very briefly describe how Help a B2B Writer works in case anyone doesn't already know.
• 5:32
  Basically, what happens is every day, writers, in our case, content marketers primarily, are coming on, filling out a form that says, "Hey, I am a writer.
• 5:40
  I'm putting together a piece on how to run a great one-on-one meeting," or whatever. Whatever the thing is they're writing about.
• 5:46
  They select categories, and then we send out emails each morning to people who have opted in to receive requests related to that topic.
• 5:54
  And then they have the ability, if they want, to respond to that request, and then we process all those replies and get them to the writer. And then the writer can-- they could go back and forth with some folks.
• 6:03
  They can choose to use quotes or not, et cetera.The kind of amazing thing about this is that we-- Superpath bought it because I was, I was using it actively and building awesome links to our site.
• 6:15
  And then in our Slack channel, there's a collab channel, and people were doing kinda the same thing on, like, a very kinda informal way in that... Anyways, one thing led to another.
• 6:25
  Eventually, we were able to acquire the site from Elise Opsan, who started it. And there's others, right? Like, so there's a whole world of sites like this.
• 6:34
  Help a Reporter Out, HARO, was the original, I think, but there's been a lot of kerfuffle around that as that business has changed. What else is out there right now?
• 6:44
  Like, where are the best places for writers, journalists, marketers to be sending those requests and for PR and marketing folks on the other side to be replying? Yeah, it's really fragmented.
• 6:54
  There's a couple up-and-coming ones I haven't seen results on yet. I'll just name a couple I'm aware of called Editorial. What is the other one? Oh, AntiQuoted.
• 7:03
  [chuckles] But then the main players are Qwoted, Q-W-O-T-E-D. That's high-priced but very high in publications. You've got ProNet, which was the other company, Cision, who bought Help a Reporter Out.
• 7:18
  Cision also bought ProNet. That's email newsletter-based as well. Very low volume, high price. I would imagine they'll shut it down too like they did Help a Reporter and Connectively.
• 7:30
  You've got Help a B2B Writer, and then you've got Featured, which is a low price platform. And when we talk price, again, these are... You're paying for a subscription to have access to.
• 7:42
  You're not paying for each placement, right? You're paying the platform, and you're paying for their service.
• 7:47
  They are vetting us, the contributors, so that we're not spamming the journalists, the publishers who are providing the opportunities. So that's the dynamic at play that you're paying for. Yeah. It's so interesting.
• 8:01
  Like, this space to me is so interesting right now, one, because, like, the biggest player in the space has been basically blown up, and now [chuckles] there's all these other sites, Help a B2B Writer being one of them, who are seeing increased usage, right?
• 8:14
  At the same time, AI has thrown a wrench in kinda everything.
• 8:19
  Like, for example, if you're a writer and you submit a request on Help a B2B Writer, like a good one, you know, like you're writing for Shopify, it's like domain authority 90-something, and that person is probably going to get hundreds of responses.
• 8:33
  The huge majority of them will be just ChatGPT created in two seconds, very generic, absolutely no substance, and it's actually driving our writers crazy.
• 8:43
  Like, I get emails from folks all the time being like, "Well, I got a ton of responses, and actually I did get a couple good ones, but I had to filter through 200 bad ones first."
• 8:51
  So it's like, it's weird to me in the sense like the usage is higher than ever.
• 8:53
  It's actually, I'm finding, easier than ever to build the links to get the placements if you send a good response [chuckles] because there's so much noise out there. This is why...
• 9:02
  And I'd like to backtrack on myself, Jimmy. I forgot a really good one, Source of Sources. It's Peter Shankman who founded Help a Reporter Out. It's his new newsletter, and he has a very high quality.
• 9:15
  I mean, it's still got some low quality as well, but high quality stuff in there that people should look, and that one's free. But, but all of them have the same pain point that you just described.
• 9:23
  And I had started a software, if you remember, just before you bought Help a B2B Writer, and then we were in talks as you bought it.
• 9:32
  Yeah, and I was like, "You should have bought that out," 'cause that-that's really tough what you're managing.
• 9:38
  And I think I have what-- I have the idea that nobody's executing, and I myself didn't execute, so I don't blame any of you all.
• 9:46
  But I think, and you correct me if I'm wrong, and just for everyone listening, we send several thousand of these pitches per month. So we are both, we hope, a positive agent, but also part of the problem.
• 10:00
  And I think what you all, from my experience as a contributor, well, we represent 60 or so clients at any given time. I don't know that it's so much the pitch itself that's the problem.
• 10:12
  I think what you all need to do is evaluate the figurehead. I think if you- Mm.
• 10:17
  -had a rigorous vetting process on the contributor, that would cut out most of the noise because my speculation is that most legitimate figureheads are not working with Fiverr-level, how should I say this, outreach specialists that are the ones auto, auto pitching, just auto drafting and submitting.
• 10:39
  I think mostly you're getting these on behalf of fake personas who don't care about their personal brand. Yeah, I totally agree. Like, whenever we get spam complaints and I go look into them, that's exactly what I find.
• 10:52
  'Cause our clients wouldn't stand for that. I mean, they're, they're real humans, decades into their career, some of them, most of them, right? Like, they're, they're not interested in us ruining their personal brand.
• 11:03
  Totally. And, and for you as a service provider, you're getting paid.
• 11:07
  I believe your business model is that you get paid upon placement, meaning you are highly incentivized to send great pitches and to have the highest possible hit rate. So sort of the opposite of, like, spray and pray.
• 11:20
  Let's be honest, if we can generate a ton of cheap pitches with LLMs, well, the numbers financially could work out too, right? But then we're ruining the ecosystem.
• 11:30
  So I'm very new to this, but from what I understand, we can't remove humans from the process. We could use tools to generate, but we need to heavily edit. It's kinda like you ran a content outfit for a long time.
• 11:45
  Uh, most of your audience are content people, so you all know the deal. I treat it as an entry-level writer, so you better have an editor on the back end before you hit publish. It's kinda similar.
• 11:57
  And, and I think that most of the problem is these people don't need any accountability 'cause they're not representing anyone real. No one really cares. Right. Yeah, that's so interesting.
• 12:07
  One thing that we've talked about and haven't actually implemented is, like, a reputation system where we could very quickly weed out folks who send bad responses because if the writers just clickSpam, it would automatically plummet their score, and then eventually you're not allowed to send emails.
• 12:23
  That was our roadmap too, and we didn't do it either. I'm, I'm very sympathetic. It's hard to think about how do you balance. It's a two-sided marketplace you all are managing. Totally.
• 12:32
  And actually the, the two-part I... That was actually the next thing I wanted to talk about is, like, going into to-- so, like, early twenty twenty-five as we record this, there's kinda two interesting things happening,
• 12:41
  one on the supply side, one on the demand side. For the writers, subject matter expertise is more important than ever, right? Like, you're creating an article. Let's say you're a writer, right?
• 12:51
  So, like, your job isn't to have the subject matter expertise yourself, it's to get it from folks with a lot of it, right, and then craft that into a great piece of writing.
• 13:01
  That, I think is extremely important and will only become more and more important. So sites that make those connections, I think are well-positioned.
• 13:09
  On the other side, for the kinda the source side or the expert side, I do sense, well, there's the AI component, which is a whole, whole thing of its own.
• 13:18
  But then there's the SEO uncertainty maybe of the discussions that are happening in our Slack community right now related to SEO.
• 13:24
  It's not that people aren't doing it, it's just that they're not, like, so gung-ho like they might have been two years ago or so, where it's just, like, export the keyword list and just go.
• 13:34
  Like, people aren't really doing that right now. And I guess what I'm getting around to is asking you a question about, like, where is link building right now? Like, what are you hearing from your clients?
• 13:43
  Like, do you have a sense of where this is going and how the importance of links will change over time? We are seeing SEO in general, but I appreciate you're asking link building in particular.
• 13:56
  I'm not gonna leave that out. But SEO in general, it was about eleven months ago, so February and March, where we had kind of a triple whammy in the space.
• 14:05
  It was AI Overviews is the name Google gave for that new top section they have. A lot of chatter about links don't matter anymore. I was like, "I get it, but honestly, there's still links to cite the source."
• 14:19
  Seems like the links occupy just as much real estate as ever [chuckles] in that side. And then we had, if you remember the Reddit IPO.
• 14:28
  So Google coincidentally boosted Reddit's traffic massively just before Reddit IPO'd, uh, so they could take that data. Reddit, yeah, got paid, but really got its valuation out the roof.
• 14:41
  And so that wiped out what's called the affiliate sector for the most part. So they were a big consumer of link building. And then we also had a Google algorithm leak, which was interesting.
• 14:54
  Reading through the documentation, I found a lot of great evidence for things like what we do, but other people found other things. You, you read what you wanna read. Other people found that links are devalued.
• 15:05
  So anyway, that was a big tournament for us. We lost like thirty percent of our business in a month and a half. To your point, like, people were stunned and scared, but by June, the demand was like normal.
• 15:18
  We've had seven consecutive months of growth, which is actually for us, we've never had that. Part of it was I personally was like, "Oh, I gotta do something here [chuckles] to recover," right?
• 15:28
  But I think there are people dropping out of the game. I think there are people wisely investing in other channels entirely, not just not links, but not SEO.
• 15:39
  And then I think there's other people who I don't think they're throwing bad money after good.
• 15:44
  I think they're seeing that they can consolidate positions with other people becoming disinterested or that they maybe didn't have the opportunity before.
• 15:53
  'Cause I actually, of course, I would say this, but genuinely, we haven't seen the efficacy of our product diminish. We haven't seen that. We've just seen that, as you said, some people aren't believers anymore.
• 16:08
  But I can tell you, like I said, our sales are actually stronger than they have been. So it's just coming from different players. We don't work in at all in the affiliate space, for example, anymore. They're gone. Yeah.
• 16:19
  That's so interesting. That's so interesting. My, like, gut reaction to that is that marketers, in general, are being squeezed in a way that actually produces better marketing.
• 16:31
  It's like, as whatever it is, it's AI Overviews, it's LinkedIn doesn't let you share links, it's bl- whatever.
• 16:36
  It's alw- whatever change happens always, like, makes it a little harder to gamify the thing you used to do, and now you're forced to just do better marketing.
• 16:45
  Our little micro context where I was saying, like, fake personas, right?
• 16:49
  Well, sure, it's a lot easier for us if every time an affiliate site owner, a new site owner is like, "I don't wanna be out in the public 'cause I own 12 of these sites.
• 16:59
  Can I just use this tool, spin up a fake persona, and we can spam the ecosystem with that?" Like, yeah, we'll take their money.
• 17:05
  Maybe we would have years ago, but now we can legitimately say, like, "This is a waste of everyone's time," not just the journalist's time now, like everyone's time.
• 17:14
  LinkedIn doesn't let fake personas s-survive, which is, isn't that what we all want? Like, as consumers, I'm not... We had some great affiliate clients, and I really don't wanna disrespect anyone 'cause I'm sympathetic.
• 17:27
  As a business owner, that's extremely painful to lose your business. And also as a consumer, I'm grateful that there will be less noise when I go look for something on the internet. So I agree with you, like it...
• 17:41
  Bad and good. Yeah. It, it's such an interesting space. You know, I don't know if I've told you this before, but Superpath actually experimented with a Jolly SEO-esque service probably two years ago pretty briefly.
• 17:55
  It was very interesting. And my thinking was, "Okay, we've acquired Help a BD Writer. Like, should-- Given that we now own the data, should we build a service around it because we're so close to it?"
• 18:06
  So I got one customer to pay us for it, and we called it an experiment, and it was so interesting.
• 18:11
  Basically, what we did is we sort of like narrowed down the requests we were getting to just the ones that were relevant to this particular business, which in this case was a SaaS company that did, like, helped their, their customers do SMS marketingAnd the opportunities were so cool.
• 18:26
  Our ability to respond to them was so limited. You know, like just as an example, you'd get like, you know, it'd be like we get a...
• 18:33
  see a request come in and be like, "We're looking for veteran-owned businesses to comment on this or that." And this was a veteran-owned business. And I was like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.
• 18:42
  Let me reach out to them real quick and, like, get a quote about this." Or it's like, you know, someone was, like, looking for examples of a pitch deck that helped them land funding. It's like, "Oh, they raised money.
• 18:51
  Let me see if they'll share the pitch deck." And it ultimately was just like, I... this is really hard. You know what I mean?
• 18:56
  Like, yes, we could land them amazing placements if we, like, went super hard at this, but, like, it's... at least in my case, like, it's just me. Like, I can't...
• 19:04
  I wasn't, like, prepared to shift the whole business to just do that.
• 19:07
  But it was fascinating in the sense that, like, I don't think this customer even realized how many cool opportunities there were for them to get links, to get mentions, to get publicity until we tried this.
• 19:19
  And then it turns out there's tons. There's tons of, like, really good, like, organic, free, potentially, if you do it yourself, opportunities out there all the time.
• 19:27
  At any given time that meet our criteria, which we have very high standards 'cause we have to deliver a service, uh, to paying clients. But if you're DIY-ing, there's probably more.
• 19:37
  Even that meet ours, there's two to three hundred daily. Yeah. That's a lot. What are you hearing from customers these days?
• 19:43
  Like, just if you're willing to share, like, if you get on a sales call, like, are they saying the same things they said a year or two ago?
• 19:49
  Like, "Hey, we wanna build links and this, we think is the best way to do it," or has that conversation changed? Yeah.
• 19:54
  So, and this is colored by the fact that as your brand builds, you attract people versus only do cold out. We still do outreach, but, you know, some of the people we speak to now want what we have.
• 20:08
  They've heard about what we have. So it's colored by that. But the differentiator for us, again, is we don't buy links, so the people attracted to us, they're, they're nervous about these algorithm updates.
• 20:19
  They understand now this isn't, like, a one and done. There's dozens every year, hundreds of small ones, but a couple big updates every year that you should be expecting.
• 20:29
  And, you know, the big one we had three months ago was the site reputation abuse. So there's really interesting, like, there's one client in particular has a very avant-garde view related to that.
• 20:41
  So there's kind of like a little bit of, like, crystal ball stuff going on still, which I think always in SEO, but mostly it's the same stuff as always. It's, "Listen, we wanna be put somewhere that is a legitimate site.
• 20:55
  We don't, we don't wanna be in the mix of a bunch of, like, paid placements." Metrics come and go, but people do value certain metrics.
• 21:03
  Right now, for example, as has been the case for a year or two, we seem to be moving away from Ahrefs' domain rating. It doesn't seem to really hold value for people anymore.
• 21:14
  We still use Ahrefs, but we u- we use our organic traffic estimate instead. Or I shouldn't say instead, in addition to. And we've always used that, but we now place that first and domain rating second.
• 21:27
  And I guess I should probably stop myself there, but yeah, there's some changes.
• 21:30
  You know, one last one, Jimmy, is, uh, this is hard for me because it's easier for us if clients don't care about relevancy, if they're open. But as you were saying, like, your focus was on relevancy.
• 21:41
  More and more clients are focused on relevancy to them. And again, it's harder on us to fulfill because there's so many great opportunities that we feel... We used to call it twisting, pitch twisting.
• 21:52
  We had a really awesome writer named Amy Maretek with us for some years, and she coined that term with us. And you can be creative as a writer.
• 22:00
  A lot of your audience, like, started as writers or still are writers, and you know what I mean. Like, you can find dovetails. You can find ways to twist stuff. Yeah.
• 22:08
  You know, I guess I thought of that as like, like meta content.
• 22:12
  It, you know, like in the case of an SMS marketing SaaS company, it's like, well, we were not finding many opportunities to talk about SMS marketing, [chuckles] you know, but we were finding tons of opportunities to talk about, you know, veteran-owned business, your pitch deck, like all these other things.
• 22:27
  It's really hard to keep track of all that. I mean, I assume you guys have process for, like, how you get whatever context you need so that you can write a great pitch.
• 22:34
  I kinda learned that slowly and painfully and one pitch at a time, which is why it probably didn't work out for us.
• 22:40
  [chuckles] It's a really laborious process, but it's why when people say it's dead, I always tell this to people, if you're listened this far, and you're like, "What is this? I gotta look into it."
• 22:51
  There's a conversion ratio, like Jimmy said. There's, for every opportunity, that's gotten a couple hundred pitches, so you may not get selected.
• 22:58
  But then on top of that, there's a turnaround time, typically 40-ish days between a successful pitch and a live link. And then on top of all that- Oh, wow. That's a long time. Yeah. That's a long time.
• 23:09
  And then on top of all that, roughly five to ten percent of successful pitches, the writer will even tell you that they published it.
• 23:18
  And even then, we both know they're only telling you 'cause they're saying, "Please go promote it on your socials," right? But all the rest just forget to tell you 'cause they're busy. They're writing the next article.
• 23:27
  [chuckles] They, they don't remember to notify all these people. So most people who say this doesn't work, I'm like, "How many pitches did you send? When did you send them? And did you ever go look for your wins?"
• 23:36
  Because if the answers aren't sufficient on all three of those front... in all three of those fronts, then I'm like, "Just, just keep pitching 'cause you're just killing yourself by not." It still works.
• 23:46
  Otherwise, we'd be out of business long ago. That's amazing. I'm, like, going back to 40 days before you can verify whether or not...
• 23:55
  Or, like, that's on average, like, when the thing would finally be published, which is fanta- I can totally see how people would be like, "Oh, this sucks. [chuckles] It did nothing happen.
• 24:03
  I sent this pitch and, like, it's been four days and nothing happened." [chuckles] Forty days blows your mind, but everyone listening is either in-house or freelance, and you know it, right?
• 24:11
  You get an article assigned by your editor, you start the draft, you put out a call for submissions, you vet a couple, you drop 'em in, you spend a week polishing it up, you submit it to your editor, they spend a week polishing it up, they drop it in the publishing queue for a couple weeks from now.
• 24:27
  Before you know it, a month and a half has passed, it's finally live, but in the meantime, you're off doing your own thing. So again, they're never gonna reach back out to tell you it's live. That's so interesting.
• 24:36
  That is a problem that we haven't-Figured out how to solve yet on our end. It's like how do you-- Like, we send the writers a reminder email to say, "Hey, if you use a pitch, please respond." But you know what?
• 24:46
  We do it seven days later. So maybe [chuckles] that's not the right amount of time. Maybe we should bump that out another week or two or four or five. [chuckles] Yeah. That's-- You know what?
• 24:56
  Most of us contributors, we're grateful for the space that you create, so I'm not complaining. In fact, obviously, it makes it less competitive for me if everyone thinks the thing's dead.
• 25:07
  But I like to tell people, like, "Nope. No, just like SEO's not dead, links aren't dead, this space isn't dead." It just doesn't work if you don't wanna invest the time. Yeah, totally. Such a cool space, honestly.
• 25:19
  Like, to, to be completely transparent, I was a little skeptical of this whole Help a... Like in my-- This is what I thought. It's like, help a somebody out, people are building links. What's going on over here?
• 25:28
  But then when I kinda got into it, I realized, actually, this is really cool. Like, the writers are getting, in some cases, like, amazing stories and data to include in their articles, right?
• 25:37
  And if you're on the source side, like, where else are you gonna go to build links in an organic, white hat way? Like, there's very, very few options. And so, like- Go pay a PR firm five K a month for no guarantees.
• 25:51
  Yeah. I, I don't know. Yeah. There's not much. There's not much. I mean, like I said, we bought Help a B2B Writer 'cause I was getting s- awesome links using it, you know?
• 26:01
  So anyways, it's a cool space, and I would really encourage folks, like, go check out Jolly's work, jollyseo.com, right? Thank you. Yeah. I've seen the work you guys do. It's really good.
• 26:11
  And, like, the way that you've structured the business, you guys only make money when the customer wins.
• 26:16
  So all the incentives are nicely aligned for everybody, which I think is really cool and kinda rare in this SEO world where there's a lot of gimmicks and gray hat stuff that happens. So it's great to chat, Greg.
• 26:27
  I mean, we get to do this occasionally offline, so I'm glad we could do it, uh, for the benefit of others this time too. So thanks for making time. Yeah, back at you, Jimmy.
• 26:35
  It's just a pleasure to see you in twenty twenty-five. We're huge fans of Help a B2B Writer, so thanks for the space. Awesome. Thanks, Greg. Hey, Happy New Year. Talk soon. Happy New Year. Bye-bye.