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The Marlboro Trap (with Luke Adler) · Evolutionary Men

• 0:00
  I've got this dream, Jason.
• 0:01
  I've got this dream where I want to get a horse,
• 0:06
  and I want to get a slice of land,
• 0:09
  and I want to get up on that horse,
• 0:11
  I want to get on that saddle,
• 0:13
  and I want to ride,
• 0:14
  and I want to herd up some cattle,
• 0:17
  and I want to smoke some Marlboro cigarettes.
• 0:22
  And I would like you to join me, Jason,
• 0:26
  as my friend, my cowboy friend,
• 0:29
  but I want you 40 acres away
• 0:32
  with some chaw in your mouth,
• 0:35
  some tobacco in your mouth.
• 0:36
  Maybe we'll get together and drive the cattle
• 0:40
  down the road,
• 0:41
  but I want my land.
• 0:44
  I want a nice little woman there with me
• 0:47
  and some kids,
• 0:47
  some sheep.
• 0:50
  I want it.
• 0:52
  It's the American dream.
• 0:53
  And so, I mean, I'm here today to ask you,
• 0:56
  will you join me, my friend?
• 0:58
  This is the way.
• 1:01
  Oh, yeah.
• 1:04
  So, today we're going to talk about
• 1:08
  the myth of the Marlboro Man,
• 1:11
  which is closely associated
• 1:13
  to the myth of the lone wolf,
• 1:15
  something we've definitely talked about before.
• 1:18
  but this particular romantic ideation,
• 1:22
  I think,
• 1:24
  here in the West,
• 1:25
  that still to this day,
• 1:28
  persists in definitions and imagery of masculinity
• 1:33
  and what men are,
• 1:35
  and who we should be,
• 1:36
  and even what a lot of men aspire to be.
• 1:42
  I don't know if you know this about my family, Jason,
• 1:45
  but my,
• 1:46
  I know you know my family's been in the fashion industry
• 1:48
  for many decades,
• 1:49
  but one of the areas that my family works in
• 1:52
  is in the Western culture.
• 1:53
  So, my dad's company has made leather products
• 1:57
  for brands like Wrangler and Ariat,
• 2:02
  and so I've been around,
• 2:03
  I've been around rodeos as a child
• 2:08
  and Western shows,
• 2:10
  and this is,
• 2:12
  this is a huge part of America,
• 2:14
  an American landscape.
• 2:15
  Still to this day,
• 2:17
  it's like,
• 2:17
  it shouldn't be that surprising,
• 2:18
  but really,
• 2:19
  all the areas outside of a city
• 2:21
  are rural zones
• 2:22
  where a lot of people live,
• 2:24
  not still live,
• 2:25
  they live in this Western way.
• 2:27
  they have cattle,
• 2:27
  they have horses,
• 2:28
  they have ranches.
• 2:30
  I mean,
• 2:30
  certainly there's a ton of that around me
• 2:31
  here in Oregon and Colorado,
• 2:33
  there's still a lot of that there
• 2:34
  in the rangelands.
• 2:36
  And,
• 2:38
  you know,
• 2:38
  as a healthcare provider
• 2:39
  and a men's coach,
• 2:40
  I work with a lot of folks
• 2:42
  that live in the country
• 2:45
  and live in that lifestyle,
• 2:46
  and there is a kind of romanticism to it
• 2:49
  when they come in
• 2:49
  and they tell me,
• 2:50
  you know,
• 2:51
  they're eating off the garden
• 2:54
  and they have cows that they milk
• 2:56
  and they work hard
• 2:58
  and,
• 2:58
  you know,
• 3:00
  these are folks
• 3:01
  that are really connected
• 3:02
  to the earth
• 3:03
  in a lot of ways.
• 3:04
  And,
• 3:05
  they live close,
• 3:10
  close to kind of an older way of being.
• 3:13
  And,
• 3:13
  and with that,
• 3:14
  interesting,
• 3:15
  there's a culture around
• 3:17
  things not changing.
• 3:19
  You know,
• 3:20
  let's keep things the way they have been.
• 3:23
  So,
• 3:24
  when culture really moves quickly,
• 3:26
  as it has in the last 60 years,
• 3:28
  you know,
• 3:29
  with,
• 3:29
  with the equivocation of,
• 3:32
  of gay rights
• 3:33
  and trans rights
• 3:34
  and marriage
• 3:35
  and so on and so forth,
• 3:36
  these things are really
• 3:37
  frightening in some ways
• 3:39
  to this culture
• 3:40
  that's
• 3:41
  lived close to the land.
• 3:43
  And,
• 3:44
  yet,
• 3:45
  you know,
• 3:46
  when I work with men
• 3:47
  from that culture
• 3:48
  who have
• 3:49
  crises going on
• 3:52
  around their health,
• 3:53
  that,
• 3:55
  that,
• 3:55
  that culture doesn't really support them
• 3:58
  emotionally.
• 3:59
  And,
• 4:00
  there's a sense of,
• 4:01
  well,
• 4:02
  let's get you on drugs
• 4:04
  or let's get you
• 4:05
  something that can
• 4:06
  keep you going
• 4:07
  because a real man,
• 4:09
  a real man
• 4:10
  doesn't feel.
• 4:12
  a real man
• 4:13
  doesn't need to talk
• 4:14
  about his feelings,
• 4:15
  a real man
• 4:16
  just fucking works.
• 4:17
  He puts it down,
• 4:18
  he shows up at 2 a.m.
• 4:20
  to the job site,
• 4:21
  you know,
• 4:23
  gets the logging machines
• 4:25
  up and running
• 4:26
  and starts pulling down timber.
• 4:28
  You know,
• 4:29
  and I'm not making this up.
• 4:30
  This is,
• 4:31
  this is something
• 4:32
  that I hear often.
• 4:33
  There's a lot of timber
• 4:34
  in Oregon.
• 4:34
  It's one of the big
• 4:35
  timber,
• 4:36
  timber places
• 4:37
  on the planet.
• 4:37
  We produce a lot of
• 4:39
  Doug fir lumber
• 4:40
  for the world.
• 4:41
  And,
• 4:43
  and,
• 4:45
  and these men
• 4:46
  are suffering
• 4:47
  in some ways,
• 4:48
  Jason,
• 4:48
  I think more than
• 4:49
  most men
• 4:50
  you and I work with
• 4:51
  because the culture
• 4:53
  is like,
• 4:53
  shut your fucking mouth
• 4:56
  and get to work
• 4:57
  and,
• 4:58
  uh,
• 4:59
  talk about loneliness,
• 5:00
  talk about the lone wolf,
• 5:01
  talk about
• 5:02
  your latest statistic
• 5:03
  that you published recently.
• 5:05
  Uh,
• 5:06
  80% of suicides
• 5:07
  are men.
• 5:07
  Um,
• 5:09
  so,
• 5:09
  let's get into
• 5:11
  the Marlboro Man
• 5:12
  and what,
• 5:12
  what's really going on there
• 5:14
  and what that romanticism
• 5:16
  is really covering up.
• 5:17
  Yeah,
• 5:19
  it's a,
• 5:20
  it's an interesting,
• 5:20
  interesting intersection,
• 5:21
  right,
• 5:22
  of the man box
• 5:23
  and masculinity
• 5:24
  and particularly Western
• 5:25
  values and ideas
• 5:27
  of,
• 5:28
  you know,
• 5:29
  the United States
• 5:29
  in general,
• 5:30
  which,
• 5:30
  uh,
• 5:31
  I've,
• 5:31
  I've often summarized
• 5:33
  as the spirit of America
• 5:34
  is fuck you,
• 5:35
  don't tell me what to do.
• 5:36
  Yeah.
• 5:36
  Right.
• 5:37
  Like people,
• 5:37
  there's like a,
• 5:38
  a wild independence here
• 5:40
  and there's generations
• 5:41
  of people
• 5:41
  who decided
• 5:43
  to leave their home
• 5:44
  and go across the world
• 5:46
  because
• 5:46
  as uncertain
• 5:48
  as that was,
• 5:49
  it was better
• 5:50
  than where they were.
• 5:51
  And so,
• 5:52
  there's just this,
• 5:53
  you know,
• 5:54
  uh,
• 5:55
  lineage
• 5:56
  of people
• 5:57
  who have taken risks
• 5:58
  in a sense.
• 5:59
  Um,
• 6:00
  but,
• 6:00
  you know,
• 6:01
  it's so interesting
• 6:02
  here in the States,
• 6:03
  you know,
• 6:03
  when you think about
• 6:04
  the American dream,
• 6:05
  it is often
• 6:07
  some kind of mansion
• 6:08
  on some land
• 6:09
  where you don't have
• 6:11
  to interact with people
• 6:12
  and you can fly around
• 6:13
  in a private jet
• 6:14
  and,
• 6:15
  right,
• 6:15
  the,
• 6:16
  the major thing
• 6:17
  that,
• 6:18
  you know,
• 6:19
  a lot of that success
• 6:21
  story paints
• 6:22
  is privacy.
• 6:23
  We are a country
• 6:25
  that,
• 6:25
  uh,
• 6:26
  values privacy
• 6:28
  over public
• 6:30
  connection,
• 6:31
  right?
• 6:31
  The dream
• 6:32
  is to be private
• 6:33
  and only have
• 6:34
  to interact
• 6:34
  with who you
• 6:35
  want to interact
• 6:36
  with.
• 6:36
  And,
• 6:37
  that feeds
• 6:39
  into this
• 6:40
  kind of Marlboro
• 6:40
  man,
• 6:41
  right?
• 6:41
  Who's free,
• 6:42
  he's not constrained
• 6:44
  by anyone,
• 6:45
  he manages
• 6:46
  his own time,
• 6:47
  he comes and goes
• 6:48
  as he pleases,
• 6:49
  right?
• 6:50
  One of the big things
• 6:51
  about the Marlboro
• 6:51
  man is,
• 6:52
  he spends a lot
• 6:53
  of time alone
• 6:54
  and then when he
• 6:55
  comes in,
• 6:56
  he comes in.
• 6:56
  And,
• 6:58
  I think it points
• 6:59
  to,
• 6:59
  you know,
• 7:00
  this is a gross
• 7:01
  generalization,
• 7:02
  uh,
• 7:03
  but I'm going
• 7:03
  to speak to it
• 7:04
  that,
• 7:04
  you know,
• 7:05
  the gifts of a lot
• 7:06
  of Eastern cultures
• 7:07
  and the default
• 7:08
  of a lot of Eastern
• 7:08
  cultures are more
• 7:09
  communal.
• 7:10
  There's an orientation
• 7:11
  to the communal
• 7:12
  system,
• 7:13
  the family,
• 7:13
  the culture,
• 7:14
  uh,
• 7:15
  and the West
• 7:16
  is more about
• 7:17
  the individual
• 7:17
  and differentiation.
• 7:18
  And there's a lot
• 7:20
  of good in that,
• 7:21
  so I'm not here
• 7:21
  to knock that,
• 7:22
  right?
• 7:23
  It's incredible
• 7:24
  to be able to
• 7:25
  differentiate from
• 7:26
  a pathological
• 7:26
  system or a family
• 7:28
  or move away
• 7:28
  from somewhere
• 7:29
  and kind of start
• 7:31
  anew and fresh.
• 7:32
  but I think
• 7:33
  part of what
• 7:33
  we're here
• 7:34
  to talk about
• 7:34
  is what happens
• 7:35
  when that goes
• 7:36
  too far
• 7:36
  or when that's
• 7:38
  actually driven
• 7:38
  by wounding,
• 7:39
  which is,
• 7:39
  I think,
• 7:40
  a big part
• 7:41
  in the West
• 7:42
  and why we're
• 7:42
  just seeing
• 7:43
  staggering numbers
• 7:44
  around isolation
• 7:45
  and loneliness
• 7:46
  and the impact
• 7:47
  particularly on men
• 7:48
  and young men
• 7:49
  that this new
• 7:50
  culture
• 7:51
  of extreme
• 7:53
  isolation
• 7:53
  now
• 7:54
  further,
• 7:56
  I don't know,
• 7:56
  enabled by technology
• 7:58
  is allowing.
• 8:00
  and there's
• 8:02
  a romantic
• 8:02
  part of it,
• 8:03
  which is the
• 8:04
  other thing
• 8:04
  that,
• 8:05
  right,
• 8:06
  you and I
• 8:06
  talk about
• 8:07
  the lone wolf,
• 8:07
  we talk about
• 8:08
  the marble
• 8:08
  man,
• 8:09
  and one of the
• 8:09
  most challenging
• 8:10
  places to work
• 8:11
  with a guy
• 8:11
  around that
• 8:12
  is when that's
• 8:13
  actually what he
• 8:13
  wants,
• 8:14
  right?
• 8:15
  He thinks it's
• 8:15
  an asset
• 8:16
  that he doesn't
• 8:17
  need anyone,
• 8:18
  never asks for
• 8:20
  help,
• 8:21
  and is totally
• 8:22
  independent,
• 8:22
  right?
• 8:23
  There's this
• 8:23
  whole
• 8:24
  subculture,
• 8:26
  you know,
• 8:27
  in the US
• 8:27
  in particular
• 8:28
  of living
• 8:29
  off the grid.
• 8:30
  I want to be
• 8:31
  totally independent
• 8:32
  from any system
• 8:33
  and self-reliant,
• 8:35
  which again
• 8:35
  has some
• 8:36
  great
• 8:37
  stuff to it
• 8:38
  in terms of
• 8:39
  what it
• 8:39
  creates inside
• 8:42
  of us
• 8:42
  when we feel
• 8:43
  fully able to,
• 8:44
  you know,
• 8:45
  provide for
• 8:46
  ourselves.
• 8:47
  But I do
• 8:48
  think there's
• 8:49
  some shadow
• 8:49
  there in terms
• 8:50
  of what it
• 8:51
  points to in
• 8:52
  connections with
• 8:52
  other people,
• 8:53
  in what we
• 8:55
  actually know
• 8:55
  as humans,
• 8:56
  we need to
• 8:57
  thrive.
• 8:58
  The place
• 9:00
  where,
• 9:00
  you know,
• 9:01
  in our work,
• 9:01
  which is
• 9:02
  relationally
• 9:02
  based,
• 9:03
  and it's
• 9:03
  about having
• 9:04
  deeper,
• 9:04
  more meaningful,
• 9:05
  connective
• 9:06
  relationships that
• 9:07
  make you
• 9:08
  resilient,
• 9:08
  and a word
• 9:09
  that we like
• 9:11
  to use is
• 9:11
  anti-fragile,
• 9:12
  meaning you
• 9:13
  have this,
• 9:13
  it's beyond
• 9:14
  resilience,
• 9:15
  you have this
• 9:15
  ability to get
• 9:16
  into discomfort,
• 9:18
  quote-unquote
• 9:19
  discomfort emotionally,
• 9:21
  and actually
• 9:22
  find it,
• 9:22
  you know,
• 9:23
  not as
• 9:24
  uncomfortable as
• 9:25
  it once was.
• 9:26
  In fact,
• 9:26
  start to not
• 9:27
  mind emotional,
• 9:30
  feeling emotions
• 9:32
  in your body.
• 9:33
  That's kind of
• 9:34
  the essence of
• 9:34
  our work,
• 9:35
  is like,
• 9:35
  oh,
• 9:35
  it's okay
• 9:37
  to be able
• 9:37
  to,
• 9:38
  it's okay to
• 9:39
  feel sadness
• 9:39
  and anger
• 9:41
  and fear
• 9:42
  and jealousy.
• 9:42
  In fact,
• 9:43
  it's healthy,
• 9:44
  and we are
• 9:46
  part of our
• 9:46
  goal is to
• 9:47
  gain more
• 9:49
  fluidity and
• 9:49
  fluency in
• 9:50
  that with
• 9:51
  men and
• 9:53
  with people
• 9:54
  writ large.
• 9:55
  When it
• 9:57
  comes to the
• 9:58
  Marlboro Man,
• 9:58
  the Western
• 9:59
  Man,
• 9:59
  the Andrew
• 10:01
  Tate culture,
• 10:02
  what is it,
• 10:04
  Red Pill
• 10:04
  culture,
• 10:05
  you know,
• 10:07
  that kind of
• 10:09
  modernization of
• 10:09
  the Marlboro Man
• 10:11
  is to say,
• 10:12
  no,
• 10:12
  no,
• 10:12
  no,
• 10:12
  let's really
• 10:14
  triple down
• 10:15
  on non-feeling
• 10:17
  and just
• 10:18
  hard masculine
• 10:20
  dictating,
• 10:21
  this is how
• 10:21
  it's going to
• 10:22
  be to the
• 10:23
  world,
• 10:23
  to women.
• 10:24
  And
• 10:25
  as I study
• 10:28
  that culture
• 10:29
  more and
• 10:30
  more,
• 10:30
  what I see
• 10:32
  around it
• 10:33
  is a lot
• 10:35
  of undeveloped
• 10:36
  parts of
• 10:39
  our being
• 10:39
  that are,
• 10:41
  for lack
• 10:42
  of a better
• 10:42
  word,
• 10:42
  lack maturity
• 10:44
  emotionally.
• 10:45
  And so there's
• 10:46
  a way in which
• 10:47
  the psychology
• 10:47
  of the Marlboro
• 10:48
  Man,
• 10:49
  when it comes
• 10:49
  to relationship,
• 10:51
  has these
• 10:53
  expectations of,
• 10:54
  you know,
• 10:54
  women should
• 10:55
  just know
• 10:56
  what I'm
• 10:57
  thinking,
• 10:57
  they should
• 10:58
  just acquiesce
• 10:59
  to my moods,
• 11:00
  when I contract
• 11:01
  and when I
• 11:04
  choose to
• 11:05
  just be quiet
• 11:06
  and withdraw
• 11:06
  and not
• 11:09
  speak,
• 11:09
  that's because
• 11:10
  I'm strong
• 11:11
  and tough
• 11:11
  and I don't
• 11:12
  need to talk,
• 11:13
  when reality
• 11:14
  is I don't
• 11:15
  know how to
• 11:16
  talk,
• 11:16
  I don't
• 11:17
  have the
• 11:18
  tools,
• 11:18
  I don't
• 11:19
  have the
• 11:19
  skills,
• 11:20
  I'm actually
• 11:21
  undeveloped
• 11:22
  in this
• 11:22
  area,
• 11:22
  but the
• 11:23
  shadow of
• 11:24
  it is to
• 11:24
  say,
• 11:24
  is to
• 11:25
  rebrand it
• 11:26
  as this
• 11:27
  is strength,
• 11:27
  this is
• 11:28
  stoicism,
• 11:29
  and the
• 11:29
  truth is
• 11:30
  it's not,
• 11:30
  it's a
• 11:32
  place within
• 11:33
  our development
• 11:34
  that's very
• 11:36
  young,
• 11:36
  and we
• 11:37
  romanticize
• 11:38
  that,
• 11:39
  and we
• 11:39
  push women
• 11:40
  around,
• 11:41
  and we
• 11:41
  push culture
• 11:42
  around,
• 11:43
  and we
• 11:43
  play this
• 11:44
  really
• 11:44
  interesting
• 11:44
  competitive
• 11:45
  game,
• 11:45
  the Marlboro
• 11:46
  Man does,
• 11:47
  and any
• 11:48
  one of us
• 11:49
  can be pushed
• 11:49
  back into
• 11:50
  that,
• 11:50
  because it's
• 11:51
  our
• 11:51
  training,
• 11:51
  where we
• 11:52
  almost get
• 11:53
  into this
• 11:54
  competitive,
• 11:54
  we do get
• 11:56
  into this
• 11:56
  competitive
• 11:57
  dynamic
• 11:58
  with people,
• 11:59
  with women,
• 12:00
  where we
• 12:01
  don't want
• 12:03
  to be the
• 12:04
  first one
• 12:04
  to appear
• 12:04
  weak,
• 12:05
  so what
• 12:07
  happens
• 12:07
  relationally
• 12:08
  is women
• 12:09
  have to get
• 12:09
  bigger,
• 12:10
  they have to
• 12:10
  get louder,
• 12:11
  they have to
• 12:11
  get quote-unquote
• 12:12
  more dramatic
• 12:13
  to elicit
• 12:14
  some kind of
• 12:15
  response to
• 12:16
  be able to
• 12:16
  feel us
• 12:17
  and have a
• 12:19
  sense of
• 12:19
  where we're
• 12:20
  at as
• 12:21
  men,
• 12:22
  and we
• 12:24
  men just
• 12:25
  think,
• 12:26
  well,
• 12:26
  this is,
• 12:27
  we're winning
• 12:27
  the game,
• 12:28
  we're winning
• 12:29
  if we don't
• 12:30
  show weakness,
• 12:32
  and in fact,
• 12:33
  what's really
• 12:33
  happening is our
• 12:34
  debility,
• 12:35
  our weakness,
• 12:36
  our fragility
• 12:38
  is being pushed
• 12:39
  deeper and
• 12:40
  deeper and
• 12:41
  deeper into the
• 12:41
  shadow,
• 12:42
  and this
• 12:43
  is the
• 12:43
  relational
• 12:44
  wounding of
• 12:45
  the Marlboro
• 12:46
  man,
• 12:46
  is we
• 12:47
  insist that
• 12:48
  we're strong,
• 12:49
  we insist
• 12:50
  that we're
• 12:50
  tough,
• 12:51
  only to
• 12:52
  cover up
• 12:52
  this deep,
• 12:54
  deep,
• 12:54
  tender place
• 12:55
  that's not
• 12:57
  very strong,
• 12:57
  and that's
• 12:59
  not very
• 12:59
  tough,
• 13:00
  and that
• 13:00
  can really
• 13:01
  only develop
• 13:02
  strength in
• 13:03
  an environment
• 13:04
  that helps
• 13:05
  it heal,
• 13:06
  and of
• 13:08
  course,
• 13:08
  it's all
• 13:09
  in the
• 13:10
  romanticism,
• 13:11
  we want
• 13:12
  our land,
• 13:12
  we want
• 13:14
  to communicate
• 13:14
  with animals,
• 13:15
  with cows,
• 13:17
  and dogs,
• 13:17
  and sheep,
• 13:18
  because they're
• 13:19
  safe to be
• 13:19
  with,
• 13:20
  right,
• 13:20
  start opening
• 13:21
  up with the
• 13:22
  cows,
• 13:22
  I know some
• 13:24
  Marlboro man
• 13:24
  that have
• 13:25
  deep relationships
• 13:26
  with their
• 13:26
  cattle,
• 13:27
  they'll sing
• 13:28
  songs to
• 13:29
  their cattle,
• 13:29
  but when it
• 13:30
  comes to
• 13:30
  their wives,
• 13:31
  zip the
• 13:33
  lip,
• 13:33
  potato chip,
• 13:34
  they don't
• 13:36
  know how
• 13:36
  to articulate,
• 13:37
  and it's
• 13:42
  an interesting
• 13:43
  branding of
• 13:44
  American culture,
• 13:44
  and of course,
• 13:46
  at a political
• 13:47
  level,
• 13:47
  we see it now
• 13:48
  where you're
• 13:49
  not only not
• 13:50
  speaking,
• 13:50
  you're going to
• 13:51
  forward an
• 13:52
  entirely different
• 13:53
  narrative to
• 13:54
  say,
• 13:54
  actually,
• 13:54
  this is what's
• 13:55
  true,
• 13:55
  and kind of
• 13:57
  make gaslighting
• 13:59
  the new value
• 14:00
  of America,
• 14:01
  meaning I can
• 14:02
  just make up
• 14:03
  whatever I want
• 14:04
  and beat you
• 14:05
  with it,
• 14:06
  because I'm
• 14:07
  that tough,
• 14:08
  and you
• 14:10
  know,
• 14:10
  it's an
• 14:12
  interesting
• 14:12
  crossroads we're
• 14:14
  finding ourselves
• 14:14
  here,
• 14:15
  literally around
• 14:16
  what constitutes
• 14:17
  reality.
• 14:18
  Yeah,
• 14:21
  it's something
• 14:21
  I've been
• 14:22
  thinking and
• 14:23
  sharing a lot
• 14:24
  about,
• 14:24
  I'll say a
• 14:26
  manifestation of
• 14:27
  this is,
• 14:28
  you know,
• 14:29
  leading via
• 14:30
  domination is
• 14:32
  actually weak,
• 14:35
  and what I
• 14:36
  mean by that
• 14:37
  is,
• 14:37
  when we don't
• 14:38
  have the
• 14:39
  capacity to
• 14:40
  relationally
• 14:41
  connect with
• 14:42
  someone,
• 14:42
  and create
• 14:44
  like a win-win,
• 14:45
  we'll just try
• 14:47
  to override,
• 14:47
  right?
• 14:49
  So it's,
• 14:49
  well,
• 14:50
  you know,
• 14:51
  to some sense,
• 14:52
  it's easier to
• 14:54
  be an
• 14:54
  authoritarian than
• 14:55
  a democratic
• 14:56
  leader,
• 14:56
  because you
• 14:57
  don't have to
• 14:57
  get in there,
• 14:58
  hear different
• 14:58
  perspectives,
• 14:59
  try to get
• 15:00
  people on the
• 15:00
  same page,
• 15:01
  and govern
• 15:02
  effectively,
• 15:02
  and there's
• 15:04
  ways we do
• 15:04
  this in our
• 15:05
  life,
• 15:05
  individual lives
• 15:07
  as men,
• 15:07
  in that kind
• 15:08
  of more
• 15:08
  Marlboro,
• 15:08
  this is the
• 15:09
  way,
• 15:10
  right?
• 15:10
  I make this
• 15:11
  decision and
• 15:12
  everyone must
• 15:13
  follow me,
• 15:13
  and sometimes
• 15:14
  I'm not even
• 15:15
  going to tell
• 15:16
  you the
• 15:17
  reasoning behind
• 15:18
  that,
• 15:18
  because I'm
• 15:19
  just going to
• 15:19
  be silent,
• 15:20
  and I think
• 15:22
  there is that
• 15:23
  real fear of
• 15:24
  relationality that
• 15:25
  sometimes causes
• 15:26
  that pullback,
• 15:27
  because there's,
• 15:28
  you know,
• 15:28
  there's more
• 15:29
  risk,
• 15:29
  and there's
• 15:30
  more unknowns
• 15:31
  when we get
• 15:32
  connected in
• 15:33
  these ways as
• 15:34
  men,
• 15:35
  and that
• 15:35
  the Marlboro
• 15:36
  man energy
• 15:37
  is that
• 15:39
  energy of
• 15:40
  I never
• 15:43
  have to
• 15:43
  reveal my
• 15:44
  process,
• 15:45
  right?
• 15:47
  I can just
• 15:48
  share the
• 15:48
  outcome,
• 15:49
  and because
• 15:50
  process itself
• 15:52
  is messy,
• 15:52
  we get it
• 15:53
  wrong sometimes,
• 15:55
  and it
• 15:56
  invites feedback,
• 15:57
  right?
• 15:58
  Which is a
• 15:59
  really important
• 15:59
  thing for
• 16:00
  growth,
• 16:01
  life,
• 16:01
  and the
• 16:02
  Marlboro
• 16:02
  man doesn't
• 16:03
  really leave
• 16:04
  a lot of
• 16:04
  room for
• 16:05
  that in
• 16:05
  our culture.
• 16:06
  The other
• 16:07
  thing you were
• 16:08
  mentioning that
• 16:08
  I really want
• 16:09
  to point to,
• 16:09
  you know,
• 16:10
  we've talked
• 16:10
  about this
• 16:11
  resilience,
• 16:11
  anti-fragile
• 16:12
  thing,
• 16:13
  is the cost.
• 16:16
  So, yes,
• 16:17
  you can take
• 16:18
  on a frame of
• 16:19
  being tough.
• 16:20
  The way we
• 16:22
  do that is
• 16:23
  rigidity,
• 16:24
  right?
• 16:25
  We tighten
• 16:26
  up, and
• 16:27
  that can feel
• 16:28
  like resilience,
• 16:29
  right?
• 16:30
  and we talked
• 16:31
  about this in
• 16:31
  one of our
• 16:32
  previous episodes,
• 16:33
  you know,
• 16:34
  he's a really
• 16:34
  tough, strong
• 16:35
  man.
• 16:35
  It's like a
• 16:36
  slab of
• 16:37
  iron.
• 16:38
  But no matter
• 16:40
  what the
• 16:40
  material is,
• 16:41
  you hit it
• 16:41
  hard enough,
• 16:42
  long enough,
• 16:42
  it will break,
• 16:43
  and it will
• 16:44
  shatter,
• 16:44
  if it's just
• 16:46
  taking the
• 16:46
  impact.
• 16:47
  The impact.
• 16:47
  Anti-fragile,
• 16:49
  like we talk
• 16:49
  about, is about
• 16:50
  working with that
• 16:51
  energy and
• 16:52
  redirecting it,
• 16:52
  and actually
• 16:53
  getting stronger
• 16:54
  with each
• 16:55
  impact.
• 16:55
  But the
• 16:56
  thing, you
• 16:58
  know, I mean,
• 16:58
  it's right there
• 16:59
  in the name of
• 16:59
  the Marlboro
• 17:00
  Man, and
• 17:01
  even in a lot
• 17:01
  of the imagery,
• 17:02
  is the road
• 17:03
  to toughness
• 17:04
  is through
• 17:05
  numbness,
• 17:05
  right?
• 17:08
  It's the
• 17:08
  substance, it's
• 17:09
  the smoking,
• 17:09
  it's the
• 17:10
  jacking myself
• 17:11
  up, it's the
• 17:12
  numbing myself
• 17:13
  down with
• 17:13
  alcohol or
• 17:14
  weed these
• 17:15
  days.
• 17:15
  It's, this
• 17:17
  is where the
• 17:18
  Marlboro Man,
• 17:19
  in a sense,
• 17:20
  does perpetuate,
• 17:22
  and you know,
• 17:22
  people get all
• 17:23
  around, hissy
• 17:26
  around these
• 17:27
  terms the other
• 17:27
  day, but they
• 17:28
  perpetuate the
• 17:29
  patriarchy in
• 17:30
  that the
• 17:31
  belief that the
• 17:32
  male body is
• 17:33
  disposable, that
• 17:34
  it's an object,
• 17:35
  it's a thing,
• 17:38
  right?
• 17:39
  In Marlboro
• 17:40
  Men, this
• 17:41
  quality of man
• 17:43
  actually perpetuates
• 17:44
  that my body is
• 17:45
  a thing, it's a
• 17:47
  thing that gets
• 17:48
  in the way of
• 17:49
  me, and that I
• 17:50
  can override.
• 17:52
  and so, right,
• 17:54
  that stat I
• 17:56
  learned recently
• 17:57
  that was about
• 18:00
  men who
• 18:01
  heavily identify
• 18:03
  with stoic ideals,
• 18:04
  which are kind of
• 18:05
  right there with
• 18:06
  the Marlboro
• 18:07
  man, right?
• 18:07
  Essentially, there's
• 18:08
  good parts of it,
• 18:09
  but, you know,
• 18:10
  mind over matter,
• 18:10
  and it's kind of,
• 18:11
  I don't need anyone
• 18:12
  or never share
• 18:13
  anything, don't feel
• 18:14
  emotion, twice as
• 18:15
  likely to commit
• 18:16
  suicide, right?
• 18:18
  Because what
• 18:18
  we're doing is
• 18:19
  we're disconnecting
• 18:21
  from all that
• 18:22
  inside, and you
• 18:24
  can only medicate
• 18:26
  that so heavily.
• 18:28
  And in a lot of
• 18:29
  ways, suicide for
• 18:30
  men is the
• 18:31
  ultimate medication.
• 18:32
  It is the
• 18:34
  off switch that
• 18:35
  men turn to when
• 18:36
  they have no
• 18:37
  other way to be
• 18:39
  present and
• 18:40
  metabolize the
• 18:41
  tension and
• 18:43
  strife inside
• 18:43
  themselves.
• 18:44
  But we see
• 18:46
  this.
• 18:46
  I know you see
• 18:47
  it in people,
• 18:47
  you work with,
• 18:48
  we see it in
• 18:49
  older clients,
• 18:49
  we work with,
• 18:50
  the cost to
• 18:51
  the body,
• 18:52
  whether it's
• 18:53
  uppers or
• 18:54
  downers, men
• 18:55
  will grind
• 18:56
  their bodies.
• 18:57
  And when you
• 18:58
  think of the
• 18:59
  Marlboro man,
• 19:00
  you don't think
• 19:02
  about a beaming,
• 19:04
  vitality, healthy,
• 19:06
  flexible yogi,
• 19:07
  right, which
• 19:08
  might be the
• 19:09
  other extreme.
• 19:09
  You think of
• 19:10
  kind of a
• 19:11
  tight, rigid
• 19:12
  guy, right,
• 19:14
  whose body
• 19:15
  has a certain
• 19:17
  shape,
• 19:17
  shape, and
• 19:18
  can move
• 19:19
  with some
• 19:19
  power, but
• 19:20
  it's not
• 19:20
  fluid, right,
• 19:22
  it's not
• 19:22
  open.
• 19:23
  It's carrying
• 19:24
  a lot of
• 19:26
  heaviness.
• 19:27
  That's part of
• 19:28
  where his
• 19:28
  presence comes
• 19:29
  from.
• 19:29
  You can feel
• 19:30
  how much he's
• 19:31
  holding, how
• 19:32
  much he's
• 19:32
  seeing.
• 19:32
  But it's not
• 19:35
  healthy, right,
• 19:36
  and it hurts.
• 19:38
  And again,
• 19:39
  the trick with
• 19:40
  all this stuff
• 19:41
  is when we
• 19:42
  push back
• 19:43
  against the
• 19:43
  Marlboro man,
• 19:44
  it's not
• 19:45
  to say
• 19:45
  there's
• 19:45
  not important
• 19:46
  things about
• 19:46
  self-agency
• 19:47
  and resiliency
• 19:49
  and not
• 19:50
  collapsing into
• 19:50
  victimhood and
• 19:51
  just needing
• 19:51
  other people to
• 19:52
  take care of
• 19:52
  you.
• 19:53
  That's not
• 19:53
  at all it.
• 19:54
  What we're
• 19:55
  saying is
• 19:56
  just as the
• 19:57
  people who are
• 19:57
  often attracted
• 19:58
  to that are
• 19:59
  actually reacting
• 20:00
  to the polar
• 20:02
  of the totally
• 20:03
  collapsed man,
• 20:05
  they're just
• 20:06
  going on the
• 20:07
  other side.
• 20:07
  And what we're
• 20:08
  talking about is
• 20:09
  there's something
• 20:09
  in the middle.
• 20:10
  And the middle
• 20:11
  is actually way
• 20:12
  more powerful
• 20:13
  when a man can
• 20:14
  bring that
• 20:15
  resiliency and
• 20:16
  self-agency
• 20:17
  online, connect
• 20:18
  to others, learn
• 20:19
  how to work with
• 20:20
  the emotions.
• 20:21
  They go beyond
• 20:22
  resilient to
• 20:23
  anti-fragile,
• 20:23
  right, where I
• 20:24
  have a system
• 20:25
  around me.
• 20:25
  And, you
• 20:27
  know, I'll
• 20:28
  just end this
• 20:29
  note with, it's
• 20:29
  a beat I've hit
• 20:30
  before on this
• 20:31
  podcast and we've
• 20:32
  talked about, but
• 20:33
  it really applies
• 20:34
  to the Marlboro
• 20:35
  man, which is, I
• 20:36
  don't care how
• 20:36
  tough you think
• 20:37
  you are, there
• 20:38
  will be a day
• 20:39
  your body fails
• 20:40
  you as a man
• 20:41
  where you cannot
• 20:43
  just physically
• 20:44
  push through.
• 20:45
  It could be
• 20:46
  old age, it
• 20:47
  could be
• 20:48
  illness, it
• 20:49
  could be an
• 20:49
  accident, but
• 20:50
  there will be
• 20:52
  a moment.
• 20:53
  And that is
• 20:55
  the moment where
• 20:55
  you have to have
• 20:56
  some kind of
• 20:57
  system or
• 20:57
  community to
• 20:58
  catch you.
• 20:59
  And that is a
• 21:00
  moment where
• 21:00
  we're seeing a
• 21:01
  lot of men fall
• 21:02
  through the cracks
• 21:03
  in our hyper
• 21:04
  western
• 21:04
  individualized
• 21:06
  culture right
• 21:07
  now where
• 21:08
  when shit hits
• 21:09
  the fan for
• 21:10
  men, none of
• 21:11
  the traditional
• 21:12
  support structures
• 21:12
  are there for
• 21:13
  them.
• 21:13
  They haven't
• 21:14
  known how to
• 21:15
  plug into
• 21:15
  them and they
• 21:16
  fall fast,
• 21:17
  including all
• 21:18
  the way to
• 21:19
  just ending,
• 21:20
  right, ending
• 21:21
  their lives.
• 21:22
  Jason, I want
• 21:23
  to connect this
• 21:24
  to kind of a
• 21:25
  more modernization
• 21:26
  of the Marlboro
• 21:27
  man, which I
• 21:28
  think you can
• 21:28
  really help to
• 21:30
  flush out.
• 21:30
  There's a version
• 21:31
  of it in our
• 21:32
  generation and
• 21:33
  our generation
• 21:34
  and more so
• 21:35
  the generations
• 21:36
  right below
• 21:37
  us of the
• 21:39
  technocratic
• 21:40
  Marlboro man.
• 21:41
  So the tough
• 21:43
  guy, the tough
• 21:45
  intellectual ones
• 21:46
  and zeros coding
• 21:47
  guy who is
• 21:49
  shut down, who
• 21:50
  is withdrawn, who
• 21:51
  is isolated, but
• 21:53
  is really good
• 21:54
  with technology
• 21:55
  and of course
• 21:57
  is influenced
• 21:58
  by whatever
• 21:59
  algorithm is
• 22:00
  pushing masculinity
• 22:01
  which we
• 22:02
  talked about,
• 22:02
  Andrew Tate,
• 22:04
  Jordan Peterson
• 22:06
  and some of
• 22:09
  the bigger
• 22:10
  podcasters in
• 22:11
  this space
• 22:11
  and teachers
• 22:13
  where the same
• 22:15
  thing is occurring.
• 22:16
  People are,
• 22:17
  men are, these
• 22:18
  men are isolated,
• 22:19
  these men are
• 22:19
  lone wolves,
• 22:20
  these men are
• 22:22
  doubling down
• 22:23
  with a certain
• 22:24
  kind of, it's
• 22:25
  not the same
• 22:26
  kind of toughness
• 22:27
  as the
• 22:28
  Marlboro man,
• 22:28
  but it's the
• 22:29
  isolation, it's
• 22:31
  the insistence
• 22:32
  that this is
• 22:33
  the way, let
• 22:34
  me just push
• 22:35
  through with
• 22:36
  technology to
• 22:38
  not deal with
• 22:40
  interacting with
• 22:40
  human beings
• 22:41
  and getting
• 22:43
  connected and
• 22:44
  in fact the
• 22:45
  part of that
• 22:45
  generation that
• 22:46
  scares me the
• 22:46
  most is, I
• 22:49
  guess they're
• 22:50
  underdeveloped
• 22:51
  relationally in a
• 22:53
  not so dissimilar
• 22:54
  way as the
• 22:55
  Marlboro man.
• 22:56
  but at least
• 22:58
  the Marlboro
• 22:59
  man is like
• 23:00
  directly fuck
• 23:01
  you to everyone,
• 23:02
  you know, like
• 23:03
  fuck you, fuck
• 23:04
  off, leave me
• 23:05
  alone, whereas
• 23:06
  the technocratic
• 23:07
  man is kind of
• 23:07
  like I don't
• 23:08
  want to talk to
• 23:09
  you, get away
• 23:09
  from me, I
• 23:10
  don't know how
• 23:10
  to be around
• 23:11
  human beings,
• 23:12
  which leads to
• 23:14
  this isolation
• 23:15
  and kind of
• 23:19
  an even
• 23:21
  different kind
• 23:22
  of subset of
• 23:22
  personality that's
• 23:24
  you know, where
• 23:25
  awkwardness has
• 23:26
  become an
• 23:27
  actual state
• 23:27
  of being
• 23:28
  and there's
• 23:30
  not an ability
• 23:31
  to even relate
• 23:32
  face to face,
• 23:33
  like it's a
• 23:33
  culture that's
• 23:34
  built primarily
• 23:35
  around text,
• 23:37
  texting or
• 23:38
  emailing or
• 23:40
  you know,
• 23:42
  internet
• 23:43
  communication,
• 23:44
  which has its
• 23:44
  own set of
• 23:45
  rules and its
• 23:46
  own set of
• 23:47
  dynamics around
• 23:48
  how you're
• 23:49
  allowed to
• 23:50
  behave.
• 23:50
  And sometimes
• 23:53
  I get a
• 23:55
  little confused
• 23:55
  around that
• 23:56
  territory because
• 23:58
  I'm kind of a
• 23:59
  Marlboro man in
• 24:00
  the sense of I
• 24:01
  believe communication
• 24:02
  is on the
• 24:04
  phone, on a
• 24:05
  Zoom call, or
• 24:06
  face to face.
• 24:06
  That's
• 24:07
  communication.
• 24:08
  Anything else,
• 24:09
  anything other
• 24:10
  than that is just
• 24:11
  exchanging data.
• 24:13
  and if you
• 24:13
  start to have
• 24:14
  emotional
• 24:14
  conversations on
• 24:15
  a data platform,
• 24:16
  I mean, I
• 24:19
  just can't give
• 24:19
  that any
• 24:20
  credence.
• 24:20
  But I feel
• 24:21
  like you might
• 24:22
  have some
• 24:23
  ability to
• 24:23
  illuminate that
• 24:24
  and connect it
• 24:25
  to Marlboro
• 24:26
  culture, that
• 24:28
  kind of
• 24:29
  technocratic.
• 24:31
  Yeah, I mean,
• 24:32
  in a sense, I
• 24:33
  think the
• 24:34
  shift is, you
• 24:36
  know, that
• 24:36
  traditional
• 24:37
  Marlboro man
• 24:38
  back in the
• 24:39
  day when you
• 24:41
  did need
• 24:41
  something and
• 24:42
  occasionally would,
• 24:43
  right?
• 24:43
  I got to go
• 24:43
  into town, I
• 24:44
  got to get a
• 24:44
  new saddle or
• 24:45
  whatever to go
• 24:46
  all the way
• 24:47
  with that
• 24:47
  metaphor.
• 24:47
  You still
• 24:48
  have to talk
• 24:49
  to somebody,
• 24:49
  right?
• 24:50
  So there is
• 24:51
  a like visceral
• 24:53
  connection, even
• 24:54
  if it's rare,
• 24:54
  there's face to
• 24:56
  face.
• 24:56
  The shift we're
• 24:58
  seeing is
• 24:58
  increasingly
• 24:59
  mediated
• 25:00
  relationships.
• 25:01
  meaning it's
• 25:02
  not, there's
• 25:03
  something in
• 25:04
  between the
• 25:05
  connection, right?
• 25:06
  Texting, online
• 25:07
  technology that
• 25:09
  gives us, can
• 25:10
  create a false
• 25:12
  sense of
• 25:13
  connection or
• 25:14
  relationship, but
• 25:15
  it's not
• 25:16
  actually, right?
• 25:16
  It's what's
• 25:18
  very different
• 25:19
  about connecting
• 25:19
  over text or
• 25:20
  email than in
• 25:21
  person.
• 25:22
  You can take
• 25:23
  your time to
• 25:25
  really think about
• 25:26
  the words and
• 25:27
  how you're going
• 25:27
  to calculate it
• 25:29
  and what you're
• 25:29
  going to say.
• 25:30
  there can be a
• 25:31
  lot less room
• 25:32
  for messiness in
• 25:33
  some ways.
• 25:34
  It's not that
• 25:35
  perfect, but it's
• 25:36
  a different style
• 25:37
  of communication
• 25:37
  than I'm right
• 25:39
  here in front of
• 25:39
  you right now and
• 25:40
  we're having a
• 25:41
  conversation.
• 25:41
  I might take 20
• 25:42
  minutes to respond
• 25:43
  to you or I
• 25:44
  may take three
• 25:45
  hours to post
• 25:47
  something on a
• 25:48
  forum or a
• 25:48
  social media
• 25:49
  platform.
• 25:49
  So it adds a
• 25:52
  layer of
• 25:52
  abstraction.
• 25:53
  And what I would
• 25:55
  say with that is
• 25:56
  there's more
• 25:57
  control and
• 25:58
  less messiness,
• 25:58
  which again
• 26:00
  changes then the
• 26:01
  skill set you're
• 26:02
  building.
• 26:02
  And it's coming,
• 26:04
  it's coming fast.
• 26:05
  I think the
• 26:08
  men in
• 26:10
  particular are
• 26:12
  already being
• 26:13
  drawn to AI
• 26:14
  in relationships
• 26:15
  in a way that
• 26:16
  they're way more
• 26:17
  susceptible for
• 26:18
  because you don't
• 26:19
  have to have a
• 26:20
  messy interaction.
• 26:21
  Yeah.
• 26:22
  Right.
• 26:22
  And AI is not
• 26:23
  going to read
• 26:25
  your body language
• 26:26
  wrong or that
• 26:27
  there's a way it's
• 26:29
  always going to give
• 26:29
  you what you want.
• 26:30
  Yeah.
• 26:31
  Right.
• 26:32
  So there's less
• 26:32
  potential for
• 26:33
  conflict or
• 26:34
  messiness or
• 26:35
  getting it wrong
• 26:36
  in a sense,
• 26:36
  which is kind of
• 26:37
  the male dream.
• 26:38
  And I see it,
• 26:39
  you know,
• 26:40
  I see it happening
• 26:40
  and it's a real
• 26:43
  thing where it's
• 26:44
  another layer of
• 26:45
  abstraction where
• 26:46
  we don't have to
• 26:47
  deal with the
• 26:48
  messiness of both
• 26:50
  ourselves and
• 26:51
  another human
• 26:52
  being.
• 26:52
  And I think
• 26:53
  that's one of
• 26:54
  the skills that,
• 26:54
  you know,
• 26:55
  we really
• 26:56
  emphasize in our
• 26:59
  Heart of Shadow
• 26:59
  program is the
• 27:03
  capacity to stay
• 27:04
  connected when
• 27:05
  we're feeling
• 27:05
  messy or when
• 27:07
  we're in a
• 27:07
  relationally messy
• 27:08
  moment when the
• 27:10
  energy is charged.
• 27:11
  Right.
• 27:11
  So the Marlboro
• 27:12
  man will just
• 27:12
  cut off from it
• 27:14
  other than maybe
• 27:15
  anger, you know,
• 27:16
  it's kind of the
• 27:17
  one okay thing
• 27:18
  for that guy.
• 27:19
  So he can be,
• 27:19
  he can be angry,
• 27:20
  but everything
• 27:22
  else he'll just
• 27:23
  cut off from it.
• 27:24
  What we're saying
• 27:24
  is no, go deeper
• 27:25
  into it and learn
• 27:27
  to stay connected.
• 27:27
  And, you know,
• 27:29
  I was on talking
• 27:30
  to this other guy
• 27:31
  and it kind of
• 27:32
  blew me away
• 27:32
  where he gave me
• 27:34
  a reframe that I
• 27:35
  really liked of,
• 27:36
  you know, a lot
• 27:38
  of men's work
• 27:38
  culture.
• 27:39
  It's about going
• 27:40
  into your edge
• 27:41
  and hit your
• 27:41
  edge and go
• 27:42
  beyond your
• 27:43
  edge.
• 27:43
  And this thing
• 27:44
  was, well,
• 27:44
  another way to
• 27:45
  think about it.
• 27:45
  And I think this
• 27:46
  is what we do
• 27:47
  in the nervous
• 27:47
  system training and
• 27:48
  shadow work in
• 27:49
  particular is,
• 27:49
  actually what
• 27:50
  you're doing is
• 27:51
  you're expanding
• 27:51
  your comfort zone.
• 27:52
  So you're increasing
• 27:54
  the range
• 27:57
  of discomfort
• 27:59
  that you feel
• 28:01
  comfortable in.
• 28:01
  So if you and I
• 28:03
  are having a moment
• 28:03
  of conflict or me
• 28:04
  and my wife are in
• 28:05
  it rather than that
• 28:06
  being too much
• 28:07
  and I'm going to
• 28:07
  withdraw,
• 28:08
  which is what a lot
• 28:09
  of men do,
• 28:09
  or just explode
• 28:10
  or get reactive,
• 28:12
  I've increased my
• 28:13
  comfort zone to
• 28:14
  say, ooh, yeah,
• 28:15
  this is a new
• 28:15
  territory.
• 28:16
  There's a lot of
• 28:17
  energy here, but I
• 28:18
  feel comfortable
• 28:19
  staying in connection
• 28:21
  and present when I'm
• 28:22
  pissed off or she's
• 28:23
  pissed off or
• 28:23
  disappointed or
• 28:24
  whatever that might
• 28:25
  be.
• 28:25
  That's the kind of
• 28:27
  skill and capacity
• 28:28
  I think that the
• 28:30
  Marlboro men don't
• 28:31
  cultivate relationally
• 28:32
  and that the new
• 28:33
  technocrats are not
• 28:35
  doing as well.
• 28:35
  They just, they
• 28:36
  don't want to have
• 28:37
  to look someone in
• 28:38
  the eye and be
• 28:38
  messy.
• 28:39
  what they want
• 28:40
  is an AI to make
• 28:41
  a decision and
• 28:41
  then it's more
• 28:42
  efficient, right?
• 28:43
  But connection and
• 28:44
  efficiency aren't
• 28:46
  always hand in
• 28:46
  hand.
• 28:46
  Sometimes it's more
• 28:48
  like art.
• 28:48
  It's like being
• 28:49
  messy and you have
• 28:51
  to open yourself
• 28:52
  up to hurt.
• 28:53
  Like that's just,
• 28:55
  that's what
• 28:55
  relationship takes.
• 28:57
  And, you know, I
• 28:58
  think that's what a
• 28:58
  lot of men want to
• 29:00
  not have to
• 29:00
  experience.
• 29:01
  And so they'll
• 29:02
  push it down.
• 29:03
  I think the, the,
• 29:05
  the home, the
• 29:06
  home kind of
• 29:07
  driving it home
• 29:08
  here,
• 29:08
  the, the
• 29:09
  through line
• 29:10
  here, and I've
• 29:11
  heard this in the
• 29:12
  technosphere, every
• 29:14
  technology is built
• 29:15
  around really one
• 29:16
  principle.
• 29:17
  And that principle
• 29:18
  is how can we
• 29:19
  create a more
• 29:20
  frictionless experience?
• 29:22
  That's the word
• 29:23
  they use in, in
• 29:24
  sales, reduce
• 29:26
  friction.
• 29:26
  If you look at
• 29:28
  Grubhub, for
• 29:29
  example, it's so
• 29:31
  little interaction
• 29:32
  with, with
• 29:33
  anyone.
• 29:33
  You just open
• 29:34
  your front door
• 29:35
  and there's food.
• 29:38
  and if you
• 29:39
  look at buying
• 29:40
  a plane ticket,
• 29:41
  you can do, you
• 29:43
  don't even have to,
• 29:43
  you don't have to go
• 29:44
  to your gate anymore,
• 29:45
  right?
• 29:46
  You just, it's on
• 29:47
  your phone.
• 29:47
  You don't have to
• 29:48
  talk to any
• 29:49
  fucking one, just
• 29:50
  show them your
• 29:51
  phone, phone.
• 29:52
  So the, the, the
• 29:53
  phone is the
• 29:53
  mediator between
• 29:54
  everything.
• 29:55
  And are those
• 29:57
  things nice?
• 29:57
  Yeah, they're,
• 29:58
  they're, they're
• 29:58
  kind of cool.
• 29:59
  Uber is another
• 30:00
  example, right?
• 30:01
  It's like, and
• 30:02
  the car just
• 30:03
  magically shows up.
• 30:05
  And, and there, so
• 30:06
  there's this principle
• 30:07
  around how do I make
• 30:08
  everything in the
• 30:09
  technosphere less
• 30:10
  comfortable?
• 30:10
  And the Marlboro
• 30:11
  man is, how do I
• 30:13
  not deal with
• 30:14
  anyone's bullshit
• 30:15
  and just control my
• 30:16
  own?
• 30:17
  And you really
• 30:18
  nailed it with all,
• 30:20
  all of those systems
• 30:21
  are built around not
• 30:23
  having to confront
• 30:24
  hurt or pain.
• 30:26
  And of course, the
• 30:27
  end result, the end
• 30:28
  result for the end
• 30:29
  user in both of
• 30:31
  these scenarios is
• 30:32
  pain.
• 30:34
  and, and I'll
• 30:35
  say a very
• 30:37
  poignant and
• 30:41
  kind of frightening
• 30:45
  pain because I've
• 30:46
  worked with this
• 30:47
  man at the end of
• 30:49
  his life.
• 30:49
  I've worked with
• 30:51
  this man in his
• 30:51
  sixties and I've
• 30:53
  worked with this
• 30:53
  man in his
• 30:54
  seventies and I've
• 30:55
  worked with this
• 30:56
  man in his last
• 30:58
  breaths.
• 30:58
  I'm working with a
• 31:00
  man in that state.
• 31:02
  The thing that he
• 31:03
  tells me the most
• 31:04
  is he's so lonely
• 31:05
  and he's pushed
• 31:07
  everyone out of
• 31:08
  his life because
• 31:11
  he's been tough or
• 31:12
  he hasn't wanted to
• 31:13
  interact with anyone.
• 31:14
  And all he wants
• 31:17
  is a friend.
• 31:18
  And he says to me,
• 31:20
  the only friends I
• 31:21
  have are the people
• 31:22
  I pay to listen
• 31:25
  to me.
• 31:26
  and so I go to
• 31:27
  doctor's appointments
• 31:28
  now all the time
• 31:29
  just for connection.
• 31:32
  And of course,
• 31:34
  it's a controlled
• 31:35
  relationship.
• 31:36
  There are rules,
• 31:37
  there are parameters
• 31:38
  that make it a safe
• 31:39
  relationship.
• 31:39
  And this is what
• 31:43
  the Marlboro
• 31:44
  man,
• 31:44
  the technocratic
• 31:45
  man,
• 31:46
  the frictionless
• 31:47
  man trades on
• 31:49
  his pain is to
• 31:50
  say,
• 31:50
  you know what?
• 31:52
  actually,
• 31:52
  they don't even
• 31:53
  have this thought.
• 31:53
  I was going to say,
• 31:54
  you know what?
• 31:54
  I'll deal with this
• 31:55
  pain someday.
• 31:56
  They don't say that.
• 31:57
  They think,
• 31:57
  I don't want to deal
• 31:59
  with this pain right
• 31:59
  now.
• 31:59
  But the truth is
• 32:01
  that someday,
• 32:02
  like you said,
• 32:02
  Jason,
• 32:03
  the emotional state
• 32:04
  that you're faced
• 32:05
  with is this
• 32:06
  deep grief,
• 32:07
  this isolation
• 32:08
  and loneliness.
• 32:10
  and it's painful.
• 32:12
  It's painful to be
• 32:13
  around a man like
• 32:14
  that and to see,
• 32:15
  wow,
• 32:15
  this is what a
• 32:16
  lifetime of this
• 32:18
  kind of behavior
• 32:19
  leads to.
• 32:20
  And of course,
• 32:21
  it has to be
• 32:22
  medicated.
• 32:22
  There's often
• 32:24
  alcohol.
• 32:24
  There's,
• 32:25
  if not alcohol,
• 32:26
  there's usually
• 32:27
  marijuana.
• 32:27
  There's whatever
• 32:30
  the body can
• 32:31
  withstand,
• 32:31
  you know,
• 32:32
  and inevitably
• 32:33
  some kind of
• 32:35
  exiting state.
• 32:37
  And,
• 32:37
  you know,
• 32:38
  our message is
• 32:39
  it doesn't
• 32:40
  have to be
• 32:40
  that way.
• 32:41
  Pain is
• 32:42
  inevitable.
• 32:43
  Pain is the
• 32:45
  curriculum.
• 32:45
  That is what
• 32:46
  we're here to
• 32:46
  deal with.
• 32:47
  And our
• 32:48
  message to men,
• 32:49
  this is a
• 32:49
  challenge,
• 32:50
  is let's
• 32:51
  deal with it.
• 32:52
  Let's face it.
• 32:53
  You want to be
• 32:54
  tough?
• 32:54
  You want to
• 32:55
  have peace?
• 32:57
  The pathway
• 32:58
  is together.
• 32:59
  The pathway
• 33:00
  is to work
• 33:01
  it out.
• 33:01
  And Heart
• 33:03
  of Shadow
• 33:03
  is one of
• 33:04
  those pathways
• 33:05
  and
• 33:08
  Pillars of
• 33:10
  Presence,
• 33:10
  another program
• 33:11
  you're offering
• 33:11
  with men who
• 33:13
  are trying to
• 33:14
  find that
• 33:15
  connection and
• 33:15
  partnership and
• 33:17
  some of the
• 33:17
  other things
• 33:18
  you're offering.
• 33:18
  So I'll
• 33:20
  drop it there
• 33:20
  and let you
• 33:21
  take us
• 33:21
  home.
• 33:22
  Yeah,
• 33:24
  I think you
• 33:25
  just named
• 33:25
  it in that
• 33:26
  the paradox
• 33:28
  for the
• 33:28
  Marlboro
• 33:28
  man or
• 33:30
  a lot of
• 33:30
  what we're
• 33:31
  fed as
• 33:31
  men is
• 33:32
  I was just
• 33:32
  talking to
• 33:33
  my friend
• 33:34
  Robert Glover
• 33:35
  recently and
• 33:36
  he's like,
• 33:36
  yeah,
• 33:36
  you know,
• 33:37
  it's your
• 33:37
  rough edges
• 33:38
  that I'm
• 33:39
  attracted to.
• 33:40
  Right?
• 33:42
  It's actually
• 33:43
  the parts of
• 33:43
  you that are
• 33:45
  in pain or
• 33:45
  not perfect
• 33:46
  that are the
• 33:48
  very way to
• 33:49
  connection.
• 33:49
  It's how I
• 33:50
  feel connected
• 33:51
  to you.
• 33:51
  If you're
• 33:51
  a fucking
• 33:52
  perfect robot
• 33:53
  machine,
• 33:53
  there's nothing
• 33:54
  to connect
• 33:54
  to because I'm
• 33:55
  like,
• 33:55
  that's not
• 33:55
  me.
• 33:55
  I got all
• 33:56
  this goo
• 33:57
  inside and
• 33:57
  dark shit
• 33:58
  and I don't
• 33:58
  know what to
• 33:58
  do with it,
• 33:59
  right?
• 33:59
  But when you
• 34:00
  start talking
• 34:00
  about it,
• 34:01
  I'm like,
• 34:01
  oh yeah,
• 34:01
  I got that
• 34:01
  too.
• 34:02
  This is what
• 34:03
  we really
• 34:03
  see that
• 34:04
  is fundamentally
• 34:06
  different and
• 34:06
  particularly what
• 34:07
  we do in the
• 34:08
  Heart of Shadow
• 34:08
  is we connect
• 34:10
  around pain
• 34:10
  first.
• 34:11
  And not in
• 34:13
  like a victim
• 34:14
  we go and
• 34:16
  we directly
• 34:17
  confront our
• 34:18
  pain,
• 34:18
  which is so
• 34:19
  counter to
• 34:20
  what men are
• 34:21
  taught.
• 34:21
  And lo and
• 34:22
  behold,
• 34:23
  when men do
• 34:24
  that in
• 34:25
  community,
• 34:25
  with consciousness,
• 34:27
  bravery,
• 34:27
  courage,
• 34:28
  love,
• 34:28
  deep presence,
• 34:30
  it's bonding
• 34:31
  as fuck.
• 34:32
  Like it
• 34:33
  actually creates
• 34:35
  a deep
• 34:36
  level of
• 34:36
  connection
• 34:37
  and brotherhood
• 34:38
  that is so
• 34:40
  different than
• 34:40
  what most men
• 34:41
  experience.
• 34:42
  But it's
• 34:43
  counter to
• 34:44
  we think we
• 34:44
  have to get
• 34:45
  away from
• 34:45
  our pain
• 34:46
  and our
• 34:46
  pain is the
• 34:47
  scariest thing
• 34:48
  to connect
• 34:48
  with other
• 34:48
  people around
• 34:49
  so I'm
• 34:49
  going to
• 34:49
  numb it
• 34:50
  or just
• 34:50
  pretend like
• 34:51
  I don't
• 34:51
  have it.
• 34:52
  Whereas it's
• 34:53
  actually the
• 34:53
  very pathway
• 34:54
  to this
• 34:55
  deeper kind
• 34:55
  of connection
• 34:56
  so on
• 34:57
  your deathbed
• 34:59
  quite literally
• 34:59
  you feel
• 35:01
  held and
• 35:02
  known and
• 35:03
  seen in
• 35:04
  your experience
• 35:05
  in this
• 35:05
  lifetime and
• 35:06
  you're not
• 35:07
  going,
• 35:08
  you know,
• 35:09
  crossing that
• 35:09
  threshold alone
• 35:10
  in a sense.
• 35:11
  And you've
• 35:12
  metabolized a
• 35:14
  certain amount
• 35:14
  of pain and
• 35:15
  realized I
• 35:16
  don't have to
• 35:16
  just hold this
• 35:17
  alone.
• 35:17
  And in fact
• 35:18
  when we share
• 35:20
  pain healthily
• 35:21
  with each
• 35:21
  other,
• 35:22
  it actually
• 35:23
  becomes
• 35:23
  fuel for
• 35:25
  our lives
• 35:25
  like we're
• 35:26
  talking about.
• 35:26
  This is that
• 35:27
  anti-fragile
• 35:28
  thing,
• 35:28
  the thing we
• 35:29
  think we
• 35:29
  want to
• 35:29
  avoid when
• 35:31
  we start to
• 35:31
  turn towards
• 35:32
  it in
• 35:32
  community with
• 35:33
  other men.
• 35:33
  It actually
• 35:34
  generates energy.
• 35:36
  This is the
• 35:36
  thing we see
• 35:37
  every time we
• 35:38
  run a retreat.
• 35:39
  Guys go into
• 35:40
  grief, anger,
• 35:41
  rage, fear,
• 35:42
  and they come
• 35:43
  out more
• 35:43
  alive and
• 35:46
  more connected
• 35:46
  to each other.
• 35:47
  And again,
• 35:48
  that's very
• 35:49
  different from
• 35:50
  that, you
• 35:51
  know, I'm
• 35:52
  just going to
• 35:52
  slowly
• 35:54
  withering,
• 35:55
  tanned,
• 35:56
  getting more
• 35:57
  rigid energy
• 36:00
  of that
• 36:01
  Marlboro man
• 36:01
  as he
• 36:02
  ages.
• 36:02
  It does not
• 36:03
  have to be
• 36:03
  that way.
• 36:04
  So we
• 36:05
  strongly
• 36:06
  suggest,
• 36:06
  you know,
• 36:07
  if you've
• 36:08
  never experienced
• 36:09
  this kind of
• 36:10
  thing, whether
• 36:11
  it's with us
• 36:11
  or not,
• 36:12
  you know,
• 36:13
  you got to
• 36:13
  turn towards
• 36:14
  your pain.
• 36:14
  And the
• 36:15
  most powerful
• 36:16
  way to do
• 36:16
  that is going
• 36:17
  to be with
• 36:18
  other deep
• 36:18
  men.
• 36:19
  We got
• 36:20
  another
• 36:20
  Heart of
• 36:20
  Shadow
• 36:21
  coming up
• 36:21
  this fall.
• 36:22
  You can
• 36:22
  enroll now.
• 36:23
  Spots are
• 36:24
  very limited
• 36:25
  in this
• 36:25
  program.
• 36:25
  It's the
• 36:26
  deepest thing
• 36:26
  you and I
• 36:27
  offer.
• 36:28
  And it
• 36:30
  will rewrite
• 36:31
  your story
• 36:32
  around what
• 36:32
  it means to
• 36:33
  be anti-fragile
• 36:35
  as a man.
• 36:36
  That you
• 36:37
  think you
• 36:38
  can be
• 36:38
  tough alone,
• 36:39
  but you
• 36:40
  can be
• 36:40
  something far
• 36:41
  beyond tough
• 36:42
  when you
• 36:43
  have the
• 36:44
  right brotherhood
• 36:44
  around you.
• 36:45
  And that's
• 36:46
  at
• 36:47
  heartofshadow.com.
• 36:48
  Thanks,
• 36:49
  brother.
• 36:50
  Awesome.
• 36:51
  Cool.
• 36:53
  Great.