Latest / Legal Late Night / Kirkland and Ellis's Half Billion Dollar AI Play and Taly Goody on Building a Niche Law Firm

Transcript

Kirkland and Ellis's Half Billion Dollar AI Play and Taly Goody on Building a Niche Law Firm · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. I'm your host, Jared Correia. I'm the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. For the monologue, I give my take on the big AI announcement from Kirkland and Ellis. In the interview, we've got Tally Goody, founder of the Goody Law Group who built her own law firm from the ground up and encourages others to do the same. In the counter program, it's the return of how broke am I. Now then it's time to discuss Kirkland and Ellis's significant investment in artificial intelligence. You knew that was coming, right? (00:45): Kirkland and Ellis likes to style itself as the highest grossing law firm in the world as one does. I mean, they did intake 10.6 billion in gross revenue last year so that may be true. They are also viewed as one of the most profitable law firms out there. They do a lot of shit with private equity and big time litigation, so that all tracks. Of course, they're about to eat into that profitability a little bit as on May 27, Kirkland and Ellis announced that they would be making a $500 million investment into building their own AI platform with an annual investment of 100 million this year and likely similar expenditures over the next three to four years. The idea is to build a proprietary platform so the firm won't need to rely on third party software built for legal like Harvey and Lagora, both of which are hella expensive. (01:37): Per the announcement, Kirkland is sticking 180 developers on the project and training the software on 250 attorneys, 100 of whom are partners. I have some thoughts on what were pretty surface level press announcements and interview series on this topic. That's allowed for a lot of speculation in which I am happy to engage, all too happy to engage. First off, these press releases always crack me up because they always have round numbers, which is never going to be the actual amount of the investment. It's the same reason I enjoy mocking people when they tell me they've come up with a 10 year plan. Right. What is it? To try to remain alive. In any event, I think this is sensible for the firm on a number of levels. For one thing, RV and Ligora and tools like them, as I mentioned, cost a lot of damn money and over time it could certainly be cheaper to build your own platform, especially as those prices are not going down. (02:40): They're going way up over the course of time. That's where AI is going. This is the buy versus build conversation that's been going on for forever. I'm sure some of that has been in consideration here. Maybe that reason on its own is enough to justify the funding. I could see it, especially since AI kind of explodes the buy versus build equation, given how I think the cost of those tools could develop. And it's not like you're going to create crazy different softwares because even the legal tech AI tools run on the same models. And it's kind of similar to what Morgan & Morgan built with Litify without all the business blackmail to get it adopted by affiliated firms, at least not yet. But as I alluded to, AI is also a unique technology proposition, far more so than just another relational database. It works better in- house when it can be trained, yes, on data, but also by professionals in a professional space or sector. (03:45): And law firms are rightly concerned about third party vendors using their training models on their attorneys. Law firms would obviously prefer to keep that acumen inside the proverbial building. Not only is this relevant for confidentiality concerns, it's also meaningful for the future of viability of the profession. Why would a law firm or a lawyer offload their expertise to an AI tool and effectively overwrite their own jobs? So a move like this clearly protects a law firm, which now has the inside track on developing the most accurate and effective legal AI because the training it's going to receive from excellent lawyers on staff, but this may not be protective of those individual attorneys. As of now, Kirkland is saying that this is an AI platform for the law firm meant to assist human lawyers. That's exactly what technology companies in the legal tech space are saying too. (04:40): That's what they all say. But here's the thing. I'm not sure I believe any of them. So let's talk about two segments of the marketplace for legal services. There's a traditional non-latent legal market, which is at 1.1 trillion as an industry. Lawyers are servicing that work right now at high costs, both in terms of how much clients are charged and also in terms of what lawyers are paid. Now, while step one might be to assist lawyers to perform that work, cue evil laugh. The logical step two would be to replace lawyers to the extent that can be done and I think it can be done once you've used them to train your system. Either you can massively increase your profit margin by keeping your prices the same while releasing a large swath of attorneys in lieu of technology or you can slash your prices, increase your market and still make similar profit. (05:37): Then there's a latent legal market which is valued at $60 billion globally. That's a lot. Those are the folks that are effectively priced out of legal services. That would be an entirely new revenue stream for the legal ecosystem. New fish, fresh money. Of course, traditional lawyering has been given plenty of cracks as servicing that side of the market and can't bring their prices down far enough to do it. The thesis is that AI could make it work and even if the service suffers, it's still better than not having any lawyer at all. So I think when legal tech companies and broader tech companies like Anthropic start talking about using technology to help lawyers in the AI age, what they really mean is can we use lawyers to train our systems so we can eliminate them from the equation? And now I guess we can add lawyers own law firms to that list of corporate half-truth tellers. (06:34): Of course, it's a tough place for attorneys to be because you're almost forced to use artificial intelligence in your practice to become and remain efficient enough to compete as I guess 22. So it's all going to be thinking. If I'm Kirkland, whether it's an assistive technology for lawyers, what it is right now, but not what it's going to be, or a legal platform for clients to access directly what it isn't right now, but what it will be, why would I do this through law firm? If it's a separate company that could nonetheless be affiliated with the law firm as an ancillary business or as an MSO, a managed service organization, that'd be a way to avoid many traditional law firm ethics restrictions. Then you just outspend or outlast any ethics agencies that challenge you as organizations like LegalZoom have done in the past. Or you could even set up an ABS alternative business structure in Arizona and just wait for that shit to go national. (07:29): Of course, you don't really have any control over the adoption pattern in other states. So maybe it's better to do this as a law firm since you can potentially launch an AI platform providing legal services directly to clients that doesn't utilize lawyers with nevertheless a shell of lawyers appearing around it and maybe you get less scrutiny that way or fly under the radar for longer. I don't know. I'm just bitballing, but I think we're about to find out. Of course, you might be thinking to yourself, why would Kirkland, a massive law firm, the most massive law firm, leverage attorney jobs out of existence? They are themselves literally attorneys running a law firm. Wouldn't they endeavor to protect lawyer jobs? Well, and I'm just guessing again here. It could be that Kirkland is run by a bunch of evil fucks. If you've seen Star Wars, particularly the Andor series, Kirkland is the empire basically. (08:29): So in true Kirkland fashion, shortly after announcing this internal AI investment, they also announced a deal with Palantir on June 3rd through which the two parties would develop a proprietary enterprise platform for private equity fundraising, which is the kind of shit that they do all the time at Kirkland, that's like their thing in the same way that servicing evil is their thing. If you've been following the news, you'll know that Palantir is essentially the technology backbone for ICE, otherwise known as the modern SS, which is actively kidnapping citizens and non-citizens across the United States as well as committing various additional crimes, many of which probably remain unknown. Palantir is basically how ICE targets people. Palantir aids and abets federal crimes every fucking day. Their CEO, Alex Karp, is the tech bro dip shit of all tech bro dip shits who looks like what would happen if Yahoo Sirius stuck his dick in an active light socket. (09:27): He's such a fascist piece of shit, that king fascist piece of shit, Peter Thiel, who just moved to Argentina like any good Nazi would, is like, bro, you're making us look bad. This is Kirkland's AI partner for this deal and probably for other shit too that people haven't even heard about yet. I mean, Anthropic was right there, guys, but Kirkland's going to Kirkland like the law firm manifestation of a Bond villain, but wait, there's more. Kirkland was also one of the major law firms to make a deal with Trump back when he was busy shaking down law firms and agreed to provide $125 million almost as much as their AI investment in pro bono legal resources to support Trump's pet causes. You know the stuff he cares deeply about when he's not raping women and children and destroying democracy and committing treason. Forget about that one. (10:20): And let's be honest, much of the legal world has not covered itself in glory during this period. The Roberts Core, Congress, other big law firms, they're all in the bag for the oligarchy. Yes, knee pads for all. Is it comforting to know that corporate social responsibility is also dead along with many of the other good things we may have enjoyed between January 2021 to January 2025? No, I don't think it is good. (10:48): I just thought of something. Maybe Kirkland figures they need AI lawyers because fewer and fewer real lawyers are going to want to work for the Death Star. Boy, what an interesting rant that I just conceived of entirely on my own with no input or assistance from anyone involved with the making of this podcast at present or any present future or past guests. And if you like disclaimers, just wait until you hear about all the T's you'll have to cross and I's you'll have to dod if you want to set up your own law firm. Just kidding, it's not that hard. Tally Goody of Goody Law Group is up next to tell us all about it. Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because it's a podcast, so I'm just going to catch up on my emails here. It shouldn't take too long. (11:37): Well, of course I'm not going to do that really. I'm just messing with you. We're prepared to do a guest interview today because that's what we do. So my guest today is Tally Goody, the founder and managing partner at Goody Law Group LLP. Tally, welcome to the show. We did it. Taly Goody (11:54): Hi, we did it. Thanks for having me, Jared. Excited to be here. Jared Correia (11:58): I believe we did four reschedules for this episode, the last of which was definitely on me. So I appreciate you sticking with us. Taly Goody (12:09): Thank you. Two of them were on me, so no worries. Thanks. Jared Correia (12:14): Busy lawyers, busy podcasters. That's how it goes. Busy Taly Goody (12:17): Moms Jared Correia (12:18): Too. Taly Goody (12:19): Well, Jared Correia (12:20): I can't count myself in that group, but busy dad, I guess. Taly Goody (12:24): Busy dad. Jared Correia (12:26): Now, I think the first time I heard from you was I was doing something for the Wyoming State Bar where we have a consulting partnership and you reached out to me about this program and we had already locked it in. But then I started looking at your bio on your website and I noticed that you were barred in Wyoming, Minnesota and California. You may be the only person in the country to have those three, but how does something like that happen? What were a collection of states? Taly Goody (13:03): Everyone's like, "Why did this happen?" So I started with California because I'm born and raised in California. I met my husband in law school who is originally from Wyoming and (13:16): I took the California bar in 2015 and then in 2021 we're like, "Should we do the Wyoming Bar?" And my husband was like, "You could do it. I'm not doing it. " So I decided to do the Wyoming Bar. I studied. It's the uniform bar exam, studied for it. It was actually kind of fun because it was not a lot of pressure. I was like, "I'm already barred in California. If I get it, I get it. If not, it's okay." And then I passed and then I was able to use that score and transfer it to Minnesota. And Minnesota is because Grayson, my husband, has family there. So Minnesota and Wyoming are basically because of Grayson. Jared Correia (13:53): Did he Taly Goody (13:54): Take- All his families there. Jared Correia (13:54): The bar in Minnesota too? Taly Goody (13:56): No, he is only barring California. Jared Correia (13:58): So he's like, take these bars, which I'm not going to take. Taly Goody (14:01): Exactly. I did the hard work and I'm not even the trial lawyer. He is the trial lawyer. I'm the one, I am the managing partner and founder. I've done a couple trials, but it's not my focus. Jared Correia (14:15): So I didn't look this up ahead of time. Did your husband go to law school in Wyoming too or no? Taly Goody (14:19): California? Jared Correia (14:20): No, he Taly Goody (14:20): Went to law school with me in San Diego. Met him my first day of law school. Jared Correia (14:25): Really? Taly Goody (14:26): Yeah. Jared Correia (14:26): That's cool. Taly Goody (14:28): Yeah. Jared Correia (14:28): I mean, if you're listening to this and you're like, I'm thinking of going to law school, I might find romance. Well, you might. It's true. Taly Goody (14:36): Really, you might. Yeah. There's like a statistic that, I don't know what it is. They told us that in orientation. Jared Correia (14:42): People get married. Taly Goody (14:44): Yeah. I'll have to look it up, but there is some statistic about it. Jared Correia (14:49): You think if you went to law school and you studied family law and stuff like that, that statistic would be maybe really low, but perhaps not. Probably. All right. So I want to get to your firm in a second, but you started out working, graduating from law school, working for another law firm, right? Yes. So how did that go and when were you like, okay, maybe I've had enough of this. I need to do my own thing. Taly Goody (15:16): Yeah. So I was the kind of person that was like, I have no idea what I even want to do. When I went to law school, I was like, "I'm going to go to law school, but maybe I'm not even going to be a lawyer. I'll just go to law school and get the degree." So by the time I graduated, I was like, "Oh, maybe entertainment law. I'm in LA. It sounds kind of cool." And then I fell into art law. Art law. Jared Correia (15:38): Art law. I didn't even know Taly Goody (15:39): That was a Jared Correia (15:39): Thing. I Taly Goody (15:40): Didn't either until I got the job and I was like, "Oh, this is a great segue into entertainment law." Working in big Century City, which is the main hub of entertainment lawyers. I did that about four years and that slowly started to realize this is not what I want to do. I was feeling kind of stuck, stagnant, like, "Is this the rest of my life?" That kind of feeling. And so I was like, "You know what? I'm going to do something different." And I was either going to go work for somebody else or my husband was like, "Why don't you start your own firm?" And I'm like, "Huh, I never thought about that. Okay, let's do it. " It was like, I just decided to start my own firm. Jared Correia (16:19): Okay. Before we get done. Taly Goody (16:21): Back Jared Correia (16:21): In 2019. Taly Goody (16:22): Yeah. Jared Correia (16:22): Good timing. What is art law? What does one do as an art lawyer? Taly Goody (16:28): It's interesting. So there's two parts to it. There's the transactional side, which I was working on and that's negotiating really very real pieces of art, like Picassos that are in Europe and we're negotiating deals. Acting like a broker person. Gotcha. Jared Correia (16:45): That Taly Goody (16:46): Makes sense. And then the litigation part is fraudulent pieces being sold or things that come up with gallery issues, like consignment issues. So it was interesting, but the litigation was too complex. And then the transactional side, the deals always fell through because somehow either the buyer wasn't real or the seller wasn't real. It was weird. It was fun though for a litle bit. Yeah. Jared Correia (17:13): It does sound like an ocean's levancy type of thing and then you probably get into it and it's like, wow, I'm pushing a lot of paper here. Taly Goody (17:22): A lot of paper. Yeah. That's what it was. Jared Correia (17:25): Did you ever find an angle into entertainment law from there? Taly Goody (17:29): I think from my art law experience, I realized, okay, my clients would be similar to what I have now and I wanted to feel more like I made an impact as cheesy as that sounds, but I wanted to make more of a personal connection with clients and be like, "I'm actually helping you. I'm not trying to get you out of a slimy deal. You know what I mean? I want to help you and bring you out of a tough position in your life." And my husband was already doing personal injury and helping the plaintiffs and I saw like, wow, he changes people's lives for the better. So I was like, "I want to do that. " And then I added employment law on top of it. Jared Correia (18:07): Okay. So what was that process like starring a law firm? Because I know that you know, we both know there's all kinds of attorneys out there who are working for other law firms and they're like, "Man, I would love to do that. " And how many of them pull the trigger? Not a ton. Yeah, Taly Goody (18:22): No. I mean, I think a lot of people's fear is security, fear of not making money, you're not going to have that paycheck coming through every whatever, two weeks. But for me, I was just like, well, it's either I keep staying stuck and I was commuting three hours a day back and forth total. Jared Correia (18:41): Oh my God, really? Taly Goody (18:43): It was just kind of like becoming just not a life I wanted. I wanted a life that I was building on my own terms. And so I took the leap. I literally started working out of my gym's cafe. I didn't even have an office. I did all the basic paperwork to file like an LLP in California. I got my own phone service, the basic things. And then I told my husband's firm, "Hey, whatever case you guys don't want, please send it to me. I don't even care if it's like a minor bump on the back of the car. Just send it to me so I can get experience." And because I had to learn these new practice areas. I didn't know anything. And so I had to learn to start a firm and change practice areas. So it was challenging and a little bit lonely in the beginning, I could say, because I was kind of like, "Is this the right choice?" I kind of liked my routine. (19:34): I had a routine going and now I'm just all over the place. I'm at home sometimes, I'm at a cafe, you know what I mean? It was a little bit rough in the beginning, but I found my Jared Correia (19:43): Way. So you hadn't done PI or employment law at all before. So why did you decide to do those practice areas? It was just like, I feel like this is the most impactful way for me to do this or was there something else that drew you to it? Taly Goody (20:01): It was impactful. And also what I didn't like about my prior job was not feeling like I was making connections with clients. It was very dry and I wanted to find work where I'm like, okay, I'm on the phone, they're injured, they really need somebody. They'll vent to me. And when I first started, I was that point of contact for everybody. I was doing everything. I was wearing all these different hats. It's changed now. I don't do that now as much, but in the beginning it was nice because I was like, wow, these people are like really ... At the end of the case, they're so thankful. They're so happy and that was really why I wanted to go into both because employment is like wrongful termination, Jared Correia (20:39): Discrimination and work. The employee side. Yeah. Taly Goody (20:41): Exactly. Yeah. So I like that. That was mainly the reason why I made that change. I wanted more of that connection with the clients and making that impact. I Jared Correia (20:51): Got to say, I like this idea of working from the gym. So you can just leave your laptop on the table, go hit the treadmill, come back. Taly Goody (20:58): Exactly. That's a good deal. I worked out first and then I would go sit there. I was scared to leave my stuff. I don't get things stolen. I get it. You know what I mean? Jared Correia (21:07): Okay. So just 2019 interesting time to be starting a law firm because roughly like a year later, pandemic hits and were you like, "Fuck, what have I done?" Or were you like, "I can beat this challenge. No problem." Taly Goody (21:26): I was kind of like, this is interesting because I didn't have kids back then. Jared Correia (21:30): It sure was. Taly Goody (21:30): Yeah. Jared Correia (21:31): And Taly Goody (21:31): This is also like the time of TikTok coming into action and I had a really good friend that was in marketing and she's like, "You got to get on TikTok." And I was like, "TikTok?" And I'm like, "Nah, this is just the people are dancing. It's for the kids." I mean, I don't know. It's for Jared Correia (21:46): The kids. Yeah. Taly Goody (21:47): But she's like, "Just get on it. " And so I got on it and I was one of the first 20 lawyers that was on TikTok and I got three of my biggest cases from TikTok and I realized that was how I was supposed to stand out against these big time LA billboard attorneys. How else am I supposed to get cases? I was a nobody back then, you know what I mean? I'm not saying I am somebody now, but I was really- Jared Correia (22:11): Oh, you're on this Taly Goody (22:12): Show. Yeah. And actually the COVID thing, I know it was rough, but I had so much time to film content. I had nothing else to do. I just was at home all the time. So it was Jared Correia (22:24): Actually a good thing. So you were at home all the time, you were filming content. That's great for social. How did you find about interacting with clients? Was it easy to do? Did people want to meet with you and networking? How'd you handle all that stuff? Taly Goody (22:38): Well, I think when COVID happened, everyone was like, "Hey, okay, phone call, sign up, send everything through email, DocuSign." Nobody was like, "Hey, I'm coming to the office." And obviously, especially during COVID, no one ever asked. And then once I had my daughter 2022, I got an office space and I think that'sw. Jared Correia (23:00): Oh, so you had no office space for three years basically? Taly Goody (23:03): No. I mean, I had a home office. I moved away from the gym once COVID happened, created home office and then worked from home. But then once I had the baby, I was like, "I got to get out of there." And then got a nice office and I was there until just this September and we've expanded our office because we have a team of 13 and people want to work in the office now. They're like, "I want to come into the office." So we got this really nice space around a little bit. Jared Correia (23:30): It's interesting. I talked to a lot of people who, one of the reasons they don't start a practice is because they say they need a downtown office and you clearly did not need that starting out. Taly Goody (23:43): No. I had clients from Northern California. I had clients from all over that I never actually physically met. I mean, phone calls, Zooms if we needed to, but everyone was very like, "I'd rather just text and be on a call. I don't need to come in person." There was a few clients that were maybe a little bit on the older side, traditional wanted to come sign the papers in person, things like that. I would make arrangements for that. I had a shared workspace that I would go to and I would meet them there in the beginning. Jared Correia (24:14): So at some point your husband comes to work with you Was that at the outset of the firm or it sounds like it was- No. Okay. How'd that come around? Taly Goody (24:24): So he was working for another firm and he was a partner there and it was good. He liked the experience there, but kind of just felt like a natural progression for him to ultimately end up with me and we worked together. So October 2023 is when he came over. I had the firm from 2019 until that and just me and I kept it kind of smaller. And then once he came in, then it was like, boom, explosion, like all these litigation cases, all this, all that. And I'm like, oh my God, can we pump the brakes a little bit? I have to get things set up. You know what I mean? So it was a little bit of a transition, a tougher transition, but we have a good flow now and we have a great team, a great litigation team that I didn't have when it was just me. (25:09): So that was a good improvement. Jared Correia (25:13): What is it like working with your spouse? I feel like if my wife and I worked together, we would kill each other. But then I also know some people who are married and they work together and it's like, great, they love it. But the real story is probably somewhere in the middle, I would guess. Taly Goody (25:26): Exactly. I think it can be hard sometimes, but we always say that because we do different things, it makes it so much easier. I am the one that's like the CEO, a managing partner. I run all that stuff and he's the litigation guy. He's going to trial. So we do different things. It's hard for us to clash, but it still happens. We clash. We clash sometimes. I'm not going to say it's perfect, but- Yeah, but if you've got Jared Correia (25:52): Your own silos that you're working in, that does make it a whole lot easier. A Taly Goody (25:56): Lot easier. Yeah. Jared Correia (25:58): So when you had that big growth spike like four years in, how'd you handle that? Because part of the issue is like there are situations where you grow too fast and it sounds like you were able to reign that in a little bit. How'd you do that? Taly Goody (26:15): We had to hire people fast and get the systems in place that worked. I had to just be flexible because things were changing every single day. I can't be like, oh, this is exactly how everything is ... I have to be open-minded that what I thought would work is going to change tomorrow. You know what I mean? So I think that was a mindset shift I had to have and also just say we are in a growth, like we're in the hard season and just make it work. We work together, bring on the team that we needed, bring on the software app. I don't know. That was before the whole AI situation. So now things have obviously changed with AI, butt Jared Correia (26:56): Bit. Taly Goody (26:57): A little bit rocky, but we're getting Jared Correia (27:02): There. Well, can we talk about that a little bit? Because obviously choosing software is a big deal for any business including a law firm. So how do you go about vetting the tools you were selecting then and how are you feeling now about there's so many AI products out there. Do I make the move? When do I make the move? How do I make the move? Taly Goody (27:22): Yeah. I mean, I think that is why I reached out to you initially because I wanted to join the Wyoming AI program and then you're like, it didn't go through because there weren't enough people that wanted to do it. That's right. Come Jared Correia (27:31): On, Wyoming. Taly Goody (27:33): And then you found out I was born in Minnesota because you were hosting that Jared Correia (27:36): There. I was Taly Goody (27:37): Like, "Well, I want to do Jared Correia (27:37): It. Taly Goody (27:37): " But anyway, I have a IT person. Jared Correia (27:40): We have had several successful programs in Minnesota. Shout out to the Minnesota State Bar Association. Taly Goody (27:45): Okay. Well, that's great. I'd love to hear it. My IT guy, he's kind of helped me like, "Here are some good programs." Or, "I've gone through a couple different demand drafting AI programs." There's always something that's missing. You know what I mean? I'm like, "Oh, I just wish I had this or I really have to still read this with a fine whatever. I have to read it very carefully." So it's hard. I think it's trial and error with all these AI tools. It's not like- So you'll Jared Correia (28:16): Test stuff out, but you haven't found something that is quote unquote perfect or perfect for you Taly Goody (28:21): As of yet. We tried AI with record collection and that just didn't work. So we just got someone in- house because it was taking too much time. The AI record collection, no, didn't work. But the AI demand drafting, the chronological medical records, we have a good person that does that. So that's actually really good. That one's fine. It's all different. I mean, now I'm using Claude, so I'm trying to build Claude out with the workflows. Jared Correia (28:48): I love Claude. Taly Goody (28:49): I mean, it was ChatGPT and I was like, "No more ChatGPT. Jared Correia (28:52): Let's move to Claude." The secret was Claude was always better than ChatGPT. Taly Goody (28:57): Yeah, right? I'm sure I didn't know, but now I still use ChatGPT for personal things. If I'm like, "Hey, Chat, Jared Correia (29:04): Let's Taly Goody (29:04): Talk." Jared Correia (29:05): That was the first one that everybody used. I feel like they're connected to it in some way. Taly Goody (29:10): Right. But we're still working on it. I mean, my goal is to get things automated, but I still don't want it to be too automated where you're like, there's no human connection, there's no human touch because there are some firms out there, they're like, "We're completely AI." I'm like, "Do you really want to advertise that? " I don't think I would want to have a lawyer that's completely AI, Jared Correia (29:31): Their Taly Goody (29:31): Firm. Jared Correia (29:31): Especially in your practice areas where you're getting people at difficult points in their life. They Taly Goody (29:36): Want to talk to somebody, not just Jared Correia (29:38): A Taly Goody (29:38): Recording or an automated text. I Jared Correia (29:42): Don't know. Let me ask you a little bit about hiring. How was it to staff of the firm quickly? Did you find there were a lot of good candidates out there? Did you struggle to find good people? How do you decide whether to bring people on? Let's talk about that for a little bit. Taly Goody (29:58): It's hard. It's competitive to You find a really good paralegal and a really good case manager because those are the top competitive things in California. Legal assistance, you can find them. I think they're all over the place. You can find them, but are they good? That's kind of a trial and error thing too. People might interview really well and then they come on. I had an experience with that. I don't want to get into it, but ended up being completely 90 days. As soon as they started, I was like, "This is not new." Jared Correia (30:22): People don't think that happens, but it totally does. Taly Goody (30:25): My intuition, the first day of work, I was like, "Are you the same person as an interview? I don't know what's going on here." Jared Correia (30:31): I've been there before. Taly Goody (30:33): We've had a couple difficulties with staff this year, but we finally, I feel like everything's smoothed out and we have the right people, the right culture. I really want people to want to work here and want to feel like they're growing with us rather than just clock in, clock out. I hate my life. You know what I mean? How most law firms are. So that's kind of the goal. I have an HR now and so she's awesome. She helps me vet, find all the people. And I just recently hired an office administrative assistant who is amazing. And it's nice to have the help of HR, have another outside Jared Correia (31:09): Perspective. Oh, for sure. Yeah. So one thing I think I've seen you doing is trying to help female founders who want to start their own law firms. We were talking before about how a lot of people want to start their own law firms, never do. I feel like if somebody's starting a law firm, it's more often male than female. So what do you think female attorneys need to be thinking about in terms of trying to get over that hump and found the law firm? Because it's difficult to do and there's not a lot of avatars for that or not as many as there should be, frankly. Taly Goody (31:47): Yeah. And I think the problem with maybe why women are a little bit more hesitant to take that leap is either they have kids, you know what I mean? Well, and then security, maybe they don't have the funds saved that they need to, especially with personal injury and employment contingency basis, we're not getting paid until we settle a case. Jared Correia (32:07): You got to wait. Yeah. Taly Goody (32:08): You got to wait. So you have to have some save up or you have to have at least your partner having money. Something needs to work. So I think that that may be a hesitation, but what I think should be a motivating factor is to know that once you do have your own firm and you do have kids, you have autonomy over your schedule. I mean, you can be like, "I'm going to go to my daughter's gymnastics class in the middle of the day." As long as things are set up correctly, you don't have to follow, "Oh, I can't go and feel like you're missing out. " You know what I mean? Yes, you might work off hours because you have to make up for things, but at least you have that autonomy. And I think that that's what women should know that I think that I was very happy that I was able to have my own firm once I had my daughter. (32:54): I think that's made things a lot, lot better. Jared Correia (32:57): Oh, owning your own business is tremendously helpful when Taly Goody (33:00): You have children. I mean, yeah, I think about it all the time and there's more stress probably, but at least it's my stress. It's not someone else's stress. It's like my firm, it's a good stress thing. It'd be right Jared Correia (33:12): If you want to bang out at 20 PM on a Wednesday, you can't. You Taly Goody (33:16): Can't. Jared Correia (33:17): Who's going to tell you no? You can always make stuff up later. Like you said, that part of it sucks, but at least you had a free afternoon. Taly Goody (33:24): Yeah. Jared Correia (33:26): So you were talking before about you got into TikTok really early and you're on Instagram, you're on a bunch of different platforms. Why'd you decide to lean into the video in an industry where professionals usually don't? Like you mentioned like, oh, TikTok, that's the platform where they dance, but that's not all it is. Was it just people were telling you you should do this or had you been thinking about it? Taly Goody (33:56): Well, I always feel like with social media and just technology in general, things are scary at the beginning for everybody because you're like, (34:07): I'm a little hesitant. Even with AI, people were like, "Oh my gosh, AI, I know we can't do that. " So the same with TikTok. I think people are like, "No, we're professionals. We can't go on there and be making videos," but you just do it. And then those are the people that stand out. The people that follow the crowd are not the ones that are going to succeed and build something, right? I mean, they may, but people that do things that go against the grain are the ones that are actually going to stand out. There's going to be negativity. I mean, I've gotten plenty of negativity, but that doesn't stop me. I mean, what famous person or what successful person hasn't got hate? Jared Correia (34:42): Hater's going to hate, as they say. Taly Goody (34:45): Yeah. They say if you get trolls, you've made it. So I mean, I'm fine with the trolls. I'm like, okay, bring it. When I get times where there's no trolls, I'm like, "Oh no, am I irrelevant now?" Not really, but kind of like, "What's going on? Where are the trolls come after me? " But I think I was just like, "You know what? I'm just going to get myself out there. This is one of the only ways. What am I going to do? I don't have money to go on a billboard. I don't want to spend money on traditional marketing, traditional advertising." TikTok's free. Social media is free. I mean, that was what I could do at that time. And so I took the leap, whether it was going to help, maybe there was a risk that it wasn't going to help, but luckily it helped. (35:23): So I'm happy Jared Correia (35:26): About it. You on your social, sometimes your husband's on your social, sometimes your daughter's on your social. And I think people sometimes have a hard decision to make when it comes to that. Some people will put their personal life out there, some people won't. Why did you decide to do it? As you mentioned, there are a lot of haters out there too. Taly Goody (35:46): Yeah. Well, with my daughter, I specifically don't put her face. It's always her back. I don't know. I don't know if that makes a difference, but I'm always like, I don't want her face on there. You know what I mean? With weird technology and stuff like that you hear. Jared Correia (36:02): We just talked about that in our last episode. Taly Goody (36:05): Yeah. I'm scared to be like, "Here, full frontal picture of her." So I mean, I put her on there just to show other moms like, "Hey, yeah, I have a daughter. I'm not just doing this with no responsibility." It is hard. I think it is the most challenging thing to be able to be a law firm owner, lawyer, a mom, a wife, have all these different roles and still keep it together. And so I think I post that to show others that they can do it too. I also post my struggles. I don't just make it seem like everything's dandy and everything's perfect because it's not. It's not always perfect. It's hard. I want people to feel like they can do it too, even though it's hard. Jared Correia (36:48): So when I talk to people about starting to get more aggressive about social media marketing, two big things they tell me are A, I don't know what to post about and B, it seems like a lot of work to keep doing that because it doesn't make any sense to just start and then stop. What do you say to people that have those questions? Taly Goody (37:11): So number one, if you're just getting out there, because that's what I did is I just tried different things. I was like, "I don't know what I really want to do and I don't know what's going to stick because there's different things you could do. Maybe you're going to do a bunch of reels where you're talking and you're really good at talking and people want to hear more about you. Maybe it's more of text on reels and you're putting more information that way and you're in the background. I mean, I think it's a trial and error. You have to just put a bunch of stuff out there to see what sticks. And with keeping up with it, I do agree. I think I was doing my own social media up until 2022 or 2021. And then I hired a social media manager. I still obviously have to do the filming and get all the stuff. (37:54): I collaborate with her, but she posts everything. She organizes it. She has calendars for me. I mean, that helps a lot more than having to do all that stuff on your own because that is what caused me to fall off and be inconsistent because I didn't have the time for it. Jared Correia (38:10): So you can be the talent and then you kind of have people supporting you to do the logistical work. Taly Goody (38:16): Right. I mean, I use my own camera to film and then I send everything to her. I don't use anything professional. It's just my own camera. I like to do it in the privacy of my own self. I don't need somebody to be filming me because that makes me feel like I can't be myself as much in a sense. I don't know. Jared Correia (38:30): Yeah, I get it. So as you've expanded your marketing over time, how do you make decisions to be like, okay, I want to get into this platform now or I want to pay for that, or I think there's a trend here, this changing, I don't want to be on top of that. How do you make those decisions? Taly Goody (38:49): So I do obviously scroll through TikTok myself at the end of the day or during the day Instagram and I get a lot of inspiration and I'm like, oh, that would be a really good idea. And so I'll either write it down on my notes, I have a Google doc or I just send it to my social media manager. I'm like, let's do this, let's do this. And then she'll come up with ideas and then she's really good at keeping up with Instagram's updates with ... They always come up with new updates like this, don't do this, don't do this, do this. She's more Instagram focused than TikTok focused, but I just repurpose everything on all the platforms. I'm like, whatever. I'm not specific to, okay, it's LinkedIn so I need to keep it more professional. I'm like, I don't care. I'm just going to post what I post on my Instagram on LinkedIn. (39:32): If you don't like it, then don't follow my page or don't look at my page. Jared Correia (39:36): LinkedIn's a little stuffy for being honest. It's Taly Goody (39:38): Stuffy. But I'm like, you know what? Let's make it fun. I'm going to put my TikTok on there. I think people are like, why is this so weird? There's some people that say that, but I don't really care. Again, I'm just like doing what feels authentic for me and what's efficient and repurposing is efficient. I'm not going to spend hours figuring out what platform, what do I need to do for each platform, Jared Correia (40:01): Right? Yeah. There's so many of them. There's more every day. Well, thank you for appearing on this platform. I've had a fun discussion so far. Let me ask you this. Will you stick around for one last segment? Taly Goody (40:14): Of course. I'd love to. Thank you. Thanks for having Jared Correia (40:16): Me. All right. We'll be right back with Tally. Welcome back everybody. It's the Counter Program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Tali, welcome back. How you doing? Taly Goody (40:41): Thank you. I'm doing great. How are you? Jared Correia (40:43): Good. I'm great. Good. Great. This is one of my favorite segments, actually. Have you ever visited a website called ThisiswhyImbroke.com? Taly Goody (40:53): No, I have not even heard of that before. Jared Correia (40:55): Great. Yeah. Great. This will be your first experience. It's a great website. It's basically a list of all kinds of crazy shit that you can buy to run down your bank account. They also have some truly amazing product descriptions. Taly Goody (41:10): Okay. Let's check it Jared Correia (41:11): Out. We're bringing back our recurring segment with you called Just How Broke Am I. I'm going to tell you the name of a product on the site, read you the description and show you the product image. You just need to tell me how much it costs. So I'll give you some pricing off just together. Taly Goody (41:29): Okay. I Jared Correia (41:29): Thought you Taly Goody (41:30): Might. I like it. This is good. This is much better than the fun facts that I thought it was going to be. Okay. Jared Correia (41:34): Yeah. We do fun facts enough. We wanted to switch it up a little. So I've got six for you. I'm going to start with lower priced items and then I'm going to move up to higher priced items in the tier. Taly Goody (41:46): Okay. Let's do Jared Correia (41:47): It. So I now have to screen share effectively. Okay. Can you see my screen? Taly Goody (41:52): Yes. Jared Correia (41:53): All right. Let me read this for the audio audience. Can of whip ass. Bring your thrust to fruition by literally opening up a can of whip ass on somebody. This awesome gag gift comes with a highly detailed and informative label complete with comical graphics and a list of ingredients that include one half cup of pane and one ounce of hardcore. And as you can see, whatever's in that can looks kind of disgusting, but that's the product image on the page. Taly Goody (42:24): There's actually liquid in it. It's not just, I would imagine just be like an empty bang. Oh my God, gross. Okay. Jared Correia (42:30): Yeah, it's gross. I'm like, come on guys. That's nasty. I'm not buying it for that reason. But it would be great to have like a little can ... I'd wear gloves using it, obviously, but if I had a can that I could open up in front of people, that'd be great. All right. How much do you think it is to buy your very own can of Whoop S? 599, 1299, or 2099. 599, 1299 or 29? Taly Goody (42:58): 12.99. 12.99. Jared Correia (43:01): Good strategy going for the middle. But it is actually cheaper than that. 59. $5.99. Including whatever sludge is in that product. Taly Goody (43:15): And that was my first gut instinct was 599. This is exactly why you have to just go with your first Jared Correia (43:20): Gut Taly Goody (43:21): Instinct when you're taking a bar exam, multiple choice questions. Don't change your answer. Jared Correia (43:27): All right. We got five more. Okay. Taly Goody (43:29): Okay. Jared Correia (43:29): You got plenty of time to change your destiny here. (43:34): Okay. I'm going to show you a page in this book, but it's a funny WTF affirmation and quote jar gift. Wake up and smell the sarcasm motherfuckers. Start your day with these snarky badass affirmations and quotes. This jar is patched with 60 unapologetically dry humor affirmations. These cheeky buggers pack enough punch to jumpstart your day with a laugh. So you apparently have a jar. Yo pick out a piece of paper and read it and it's inspirational like this, which says when things seem especially rough, just ask yourself, did I shit my pants today? If the answer is no, then you're doing just great. Taly Goody (44:18): And there's 60 of those in a jar. Jared Correia (44:21): Just like this. Taly Goody (44:23): I need to get one. Jared Correia (44:25): I'm feeling pretty good. I meet today's criteria. A quote jar of inspirational quotes and a cat giving you the double bird. What's better? Taly Goody (44:39): I love it. Jared Correia (44:40): I Taly Goody (44:40): Love it. Jared Correia (44:41): 12.99, 15.99 or 21.99. Any of those is a bargain. 12.99, 15.99, 21.99. What do you think? 15.99. Taly Goody (44:54): 15.99. I'm sticking with that. Jared Correia (44:57): 15.99. You went for the middle again and I have strayed from the middle once again. 21.99. Taly Goody (45:07): Why is that 21.99? I don't understand. That should not be done. Damn. Jared Correia (45:14): I feel like it's a lot. That's Taly Goody (45:15): Expensive for that. That's expensive Jared Correia (45:16): For that. Isn't that? It's like 40 cents a quote. I can just write quotes like that on my own. Taly Goody (45:22): Claude. Yeah, exactly. Claude. Give me some quotes and then you just put it off. Jared Correia (45:26): So the good thing is for you, you don't need to buy that. You just go right into Claude. Taly Goody (45:32): Exactly. That is hilarious. Okay. I'm going to get the next one right. Jared Correia (45:38): I believe in you. Let's move up the pricing ladder to something a little bit more expensive. Taly Goody (45:44): I can do more expensive. I think that's easier Jared Correia (45:46): For me. Oh, we get quite expensive here. Okay. The experience tube ... Wait do you see this? The experienced tube is perfect for connecting one-on-one with your best bud. Simply stick your face into one end of the tube and all peripheral distractions are instantly eliminated allowing you to give your undivided attention to the person in front of you. Now, I will say that I have considered buying this. I have two kids. I've considered buying this for them so that they can each have one head in each side of the experience tube because it looks like this. Taly Goody (46:24): Is that clotch? I thought it was going to be like a metal tube or something. What? Jared Correia (46:30): One would hope. Can you Taly Goody (46:31): Breathe in that thing? Is it breathable? Jared Correia (46:33): I mean, Taly Goody (46:34): There's so many questions. Jared Correia (46:36): Just for the audio audience, it looks ... You can tell me if I'm describing this correctly, Tally, but it looks like a pair of underwear with just the waistband part and no legs connected to another pair of underwear, which appears to be about four feet long. Taly Goody (46:52): Yeah. This has got to be cheap. I'm sorry. This is not Jared Correia (46:55): Expensive.You stick your head in one side and the other person sticks their head in the other side. It's basically like a giant sock, actually. Is this Taly Goody (47:03): Real?That's a real kind of Jared Correia (47:04): This is real.This is why I love this website. Yes. Taly Goody (47:08): What? That is hilarious. Jared Correia (47:10): The question is how much could you really buy for? Here are your choices. 15.99, 24.99 or 35.99. 15.99, 24.99 or 35.99. Remember, this is basically a giant sock/pair of underwear that you stick your head in. Taly Goody (47:30): And you said Jared Correia (47:30): Four Taly Goody (47:31): Feet? Jared Correia (47:32): It looks like it's about four feet long. Taly Goody (47:35): 35. Let's go 35. And don't tell me it's the middle answer. It's the middle. No, that was Jared Correia (47:40): ... 24.99. All right. Well, you said you wanted more high-end stuff. Taly Goody (47:53): Can we go high-high-high? I'm thinking is there a designer watch or something like that? We could do it. I'm good with that stuff. I'm getting tired. There's no designer stuff on this Jared Correia (48:01): One. There is some designer stuff on the website, but it was like ... I was looking at this morning. It was so high-end designer that it wasn't like there were no prices for it. You had to get a demo version of the product or something like that. This is hilarious. I got some really expensive shit. Okay. Taly Goody (48:19): I have more questions. Jared Correia (48:19): Let's start with the expensive stuff. You have three more chances. Taly Goody (48:22): Okay. Okay. I can get 50% maybe. Jared Correia (48:26): This is why I love doing stuff like this with lawyers because they're very competitive and I like to watch them think about this stuff. Okay. It's Taly Goody (48:35): Cool. Jared Correia (48:38): Amortal is the name of the company, Chamber Recovery Pod. Climb into a 700 pound wellness pod that does red light therapy, PEMF, breath work, molecular hydrogen and vibroacoustics all at once. Oh my God, it's like Christmas come early for me. Built on NASA zero gravity geometry. Sessions run 15 to 60 minutes. Your biohacking stack just became one thing. Now, maybe as an LA person, you can clue me in. I don't know what any of these words mean. What is this all Taly Goody (49:13): About? I know a few. So I have a red light therapy, red light therapy, but it's just one panel. It's supposed to help with inflammation and just overall health. If you have pain areas, but yes, wear glasses because the red light's not good for your eyes. Breathwork, you could just do breathwork by yourself. I don't know why you'd have to go into a chamber to do breathwork. And then also, does that mean zero gravity? You're floating in this thing? I don't understand what that means. Jared Correia (49:41): Here, let me show you an image of it. Taly Goody (49:42): Because Jared Correia (49:43): It's crazy bullshit. Look at this thing. Oh, Taly Goody (49:45): I've seen a picture of this before. Yes. I saw on Instagram, I Jared Correia (49:48): Think. I don't think you're floating, but you're clearly in this Jetsons type chair in your own sauna deal. I've Taly Goody (49:57): Seen that before. Yeah, so that's Jared Correia (49:59): The red light. Taly Goody (49:59): Okay. Jared Correia (50:02): You want to hear some pricing? Taly Goody (50:04): Yes. Jared Correia (50:04): Because I told you we'd get expensive here. Taly Goody (50:07): Okay. I think I Jared Correia (50:07): Made this Taly Goody (50:08): One right. Jared Correia (50:09): Is this pod $97,900, $159,500 or $273,400? 97,800, 159,500, or 273,400. Taly Goody (50:27): It's 700 pounds. It is Jared Correia (50:31): 700 pounds. I don't know if it comes with the sunglasses or not. Second option. Second option. You were right. You are built for high end products. 159.9. Taly Goody (50:45): Do you have one Jared Correia (50:46): Big Taly Goody (50:47): Deal? That one's way too high. No, I should get one though, but I don't know. I just have literally with a panel that's this big, that's it. And I sit in front of it where I'm meditating. That's all. Jared Correia (50:57): I feel like Michael Jackson would definitely have had one of these back in the day. Maybe two. I got a lot one now. One for him and one for bubbles. Yeah. For the low low price of $160,000. All right. You're on a run. Okay. I got one. Wait till you see this next one. Okay. What's great about this website is that they have these ... Every time I go on, there's a new mechanized device of some kind. So this is called the UniTree GD01 Drivable Mec Robot. Please hold your applause until I show you the picture. Climb inside the world's first production ready manned Mec and walk among mere mortals as a nine foot transforming robot. The Unitrey GDO1 shifts between two and four legs, fits a human pilot and makes every commute a potential movie trailer. Look at this shit. Is that crazy or what? Taly Goody (51:51): That's scary. Is that just walking around? I mean, where do we ... But you're Jared Correia (51:57): Inside it. Taly Goody (51:59): You can be driving among cars or walking among cars. Jared Correia (52:03): Apparently. Taly Goody (52:04): That is weird. Jared Correia (52:08): We're looking at it at the four legged version, but apparently it stands up too. Do you Taly Goody (52:14): Have a picture of the other one? No. I Jared Correia (52:16): Do not. No. But anyone can feel free to Google if they wish. All Taly Goody (52:22): Right. Jared Correia (52:22): I don't know. Maybe this is more for the gents. You could also show this to your husband and see what he thinks. Maybe he already has. I don't know. Taly Goody (52:32): No, Jared Correia (52:32): I hope not. The GDO1 drivable Mec Robot. Are we talking $281,950? $582,625 or $1,071,375. 280,000, 580,000 or one million. Where does the Mec robot land? Taly Goody (53:02): I think it's the second answer. 581. Wow. Jared Correia (53:05): You're really good with these. That's correct. Taly Goody (53:08): No one's going to buy a million dollars. Jared Correia (53:10): I just had to start getting away from this stupid bullshit. Advice books. I got one more for you. You're on a real roll here. Taly Goody (53:21): Okay. Jared Correia (53:22): We're going to do a music one next. Taly Goody (53:26): Okay. Jared Correia (53:27): Available on the website, hard to get. So this is the Wu Tang Klan Secret album for hip hop heads owning the Wu Tang secret album Once Upon a Time in Shao Lin is the equivalent of coming upon the Mona Lisa encased in a custom made and hand decorated silver and nickel box rest the sole copy of the secret double album from the iconic hip hop collective. Do you know about this? This is what it looks like. Taly Goody (54:02): No, but wow. Jared Correia (54:04): That's pretty cool. Wu Tang Klan, they made an album and they only made one copy and then they destroyed the masters and the purchaser cannot download or exchange any digital formats. It can only be listened to live by- And no one's heard the song before. Only one song has been released. No one knows what the other songs are. And there's a museum in Australia that I think is doing a playthrough of the album, but the only way you'll be able to listen to it is if you're at the museum at the time. So this is a single pocket. And then they have the box. Taly Goody (54:44): That's how they're Jared Correia (54:44): Going to Taly Goody (54:45): Play Jared Correia (54:46): It? Yeah. It's a CD. So inside the box is a CD. So the owner of it, I forget who the prison owner is, but the current owner is lending it to the museum to listen to. Taly Goody (54:59): I just can't imagine that somehow nobody would make a copy of that. Somehow Jared Correia (55:03): Secretly they would make a copy. Surprising. Taly Goody (55:06): Yeah. Jared Correia (55:06): Well, the first guy who bought it, who lost it because he had some federal crimes or something like that, he was basically like, "The only person I'd play it with is Taylor Swift," which is random. Taly Goody (55:16): Oh my gosh. Okay. All right, this is going to be expensive. Okay. Jared Correia (55:20): Okay. 250,000, one million or five million. 250,000. Five million? Wow. All right. We're going to have to have you back and we're only going to have to do high end items. Taly Goody (55:38): This is fun. I like this. Jared Correia (55:40): I love this game. One of my favorites. That's all I got. I don't have any more prepared. Okay. Taly Goody (55:45): 50%, not bad. 50%. Okay. I'll Jared Correia (55:48): Take it. 50%. And anything above 24.99, Taly Goody (55:53): You killed it. I got that. I got that. Jared Correia (55:56): That was great. Thank you for coming on. We'll have to have you back sometime. Taly Goody (56:01): Well, thanks for having me. I had a lot of fun. Appreciate it, Jared. Thank you. Jared Correia (56:04): Awesome. Take care. Thanks for our guest today, Tally Goody, who is the founder and managing partner of Goody Law Group, LLP. To learn more about Tally and Goody Law Group, visit goodylawgroup.com. That's G-O-O-D-Y lawgroup.com. Goodylawgroup.com is in the show notes. Now, because I'll always be a 90s kid who was frightened by the entire Mr. Boogity movie series. But whose true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlist for every podcast episode that I record where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. For this week's playlist, it's all goody in the hoodie as we've got lots of songs with the word good in the title. It's a good playlist and it's brought to you by grape nut cereal. Yeah, those crunchy little fuckers. I may be too crunchy, actually, because that motherfucker contains exactly zero grapes and zero nuts. (57:06): That is some false advertising bullshit right there and we are attracting the sponsorship opportunity that never existed. During this next time when I contemplate further why anyone would even want to eat a grapes testicles.