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The ROAR Podcast: George Barrios · The ROAR Podcast

• Brice Clinton: He took a company worth less than a billion dollars and helped turn it into a global content machine valued at more than 9 billion. He cannibalized one of the most profitable businesses in pay-per-view to launch a streaming service that nearly everyone told him was a terrible idea. And then watched it climb past two million subscribers. He got fired in January of 2020 in a moment that wiped billions off a public company's market cap overnight. And then he came back to architect one of the biggest mergers in the history of sports entertainment. Adam Grossman: Welcome to the Roar Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Grossman. With today George Barrios. George, welcome to the podcast. George Barrios: Thanks, Sam. It's great to be here. Adam Grossman: Well it's great to have you. I mean you've had a very and successful career and still are obviously a young guy, so th George Barrios: I like the successful part. The long part isn't I I don't I don't like to admit that, but yeah. Brice Clinton: This is George Berrios. Over more than two decades, George built a career across Time Warner, HBO, and the New York Times Company, before stepping into the role that most people know him for: Chief Financial Strategy Officer, and eventually co-president of WWE. Along with his longtime partner, Michelle Wilson, he helped write a playbook that didn't just change wrestling, it reframed how the entire sports industry thinks about intellectual property, content, and the battle for the fans' time. Adam Grossman: Yeah, well we're excited to talk about multiple different things. Also, one of the things we'll cover and primarily focus on is you have a new book coming out, which we're very excited to talk about. but we like to start the podcast the way we always like to, which is we want to learn more about you, your not so long, I guess, career, but a very successful career date. And we'll start from there and then we'll we'll dive into the book in particular. George Barrios: Thanks. Yeah, and and the book covers all of it. And and look, I have to admit it is a long career now. You know, I I I went from being being so proud of being the youngest guy in the room and now I'm the oldest guy. Actually I don't even want to be in the room anymore, but I'm now I usually am the oldest guy in the room. yeah, I I started you know, the first, let's say twenty or so as a a kind of general management, financial management, strategic management roles, you know, at different levels and Brice Clinton: Today, the two of them run ISO's Capital and sit at the center of Global Sports Group, the largest sports investment holding company in the world. In this conversation, Adam sits down for George for all of it. The WWE network gamble, the data infrastructure most organizations only pretend to build, the partnership that survived what George calls the swamp, and his new book, Sometimes Wrong, but Never in Doubt. Thinking into where that title actually came from, Adam Grossman: What? Ha ha ha. George Barrios: ⁓ lucky for me, moving up over the years in different industries. So started out at Time Warner, in a HBO, a lot of cool things there. then did a a stint at Prax there, which I always said is like a kind of business boot camp. I probably learned more about the science of management and and leadership and business there than anywhere else really. had an interesting time at the New York Times company, but then you know what Brice Clinton: What really separates confidence from arrogance, and why George believes artificial intelligence isn't the next internet is something much bigger. I'm Bryce Clinton, and this is the Roar Podcast. George Barrios: Most people know me for is the time at So ⁓ started as a chief financial and strategy officer, kind of back to the, you know, I mentioned finance management, strategy manager, general management, and then became co-president that after a few years along with Michelle Wilson and and we ran the company. And and obviously it's ⁓ I I'm proud of you know, my contributions all along the way, but certainly ⁓ incredibly proud of what we did at WWE. I mean, when we started the business was worth less than a billion and You know, when we rejoined the board to architect the the merger with UFC, ⁓ it was valued at over nine billion. So being part of that, creating the playbook that transformed that business is is is amazing. And then Michelle and I we continue to work together. So it's been now a an 18-year partnership. We started our own firm, ISOS Capital, in 2020, to advise in in sports and media and entertainment and invest. So we've been doing that for the last two years. We've been working with C B C and their sports assets and just ⁓ closed the formation of the largest sports investment holding company that exists, which is Global Sport Group. And so Michelle and I are ⁓ board members and investors in Global Sport Group. So yeah, l a lot of it's been a lot of fun, primarily an operator the last few years, an investor advisor, but I can't ever lose the operating part of it. Is I I love to to to grow businesses, so Adam Grossman: Yeah, there's a lot there. And one of the things I do actually think is interesting and actually we'll definitely back to it, is the relationship you have with Michelle, Having two really high-powered, successful executives. have this long of a relationship and the successful something we want to to explore in more detail because that's very rare, honestly. And I want to set the table first and give people the context you mentioned that most people know you from your WWE ⁓ experience. obviously that's big focus of the book and what you did with the book. So why don't we drill into that? And I do love the title of the book and how you framed it. So I'll let you say 'cause I I feel it I don't know, awkward's the wrong word, but I think it definitely applies to you. George Barrios: Yes, ⁓ you know, look, it's the first book I've written. and I I about halfway through I'm like, I'm never fucking doing this again. I I t I tell it's it's a labor of love and hate. You know, like ⁓ y you're so proud as you're doing things and then you're you know, with when you're stuck or you're in the tenth round of editing, but in any event, a as you know, you know, you g g give a lot of thought to what could the title be and there you know, there was a few. Adam Grossman: Yeah. I can empathize how it really bugged. Absolutely. No question. Yes. George Barrios: but the one that we went with I went with was sometimes wrong, but never in doubt. ⁓ And you people who know me will go, ⁓ yeah, arrogant SOB, that sounds just like it. Yeah, but that really wasn't where the where it came from. It actually was a phrase in a performance early in my career. ⁓ and it was a great review, ⁓ you know, and I ended up getting promoted. I didn't know while the the my boss had given me the review the night before to read, so I was like, you know, so you're prepared. It was a great idea, by the way. I I to stole that from him. I I've done that throughout my career after that. But anyway, I read it. It's a great review, I'm reading but the thing that stuck out is he's you know, he put writes in there and George is sometimes wrong but never in doubt. And I c can't remember the context, but I remember feeling like, holy shit, you know, that that doesn't sound good. And then he told me, you know, as we do the review and it's great. And you know, hey, we're you know it was at that point that got promoted to run the first time I run ran an entire business. I was about 30 years old for them. I mean he gives me and I said, But hey, why did you s write why did you write that? Like what ⁓ that it doesn't sound good. Are you telling me that I gotta tone that down? He No, not at all. He goes, he goes, he goes, We love the edge, George. So you we keep that. He goes, Yeah, you kind of ⁓ Sand it down a little bit, but we love the edge. He he said to me, and again, stuck with me. He said ⁓ he had gotten the phrase from a book he had read, and it was written by ⁓ a Harvard surgeon. And surgeon had written in there, he said that all great surgeons were sometimes wrong, but never in doubt. And the is because surgery is incredibly hard. And if you're going to be great at it, you have to have the confidence that you're going to succeed, because if you don't, There is no chance of success. However, and this is what he what my boss said to me, he goes, the confidence doesn't come from bravado. It comes from doing the the work, the preparation. And so he said to me, He goes, Look, the r we know why you're confident. He goes, because you've done so much work that you know that the idea is gonna work, and then you get in there and drive it home and you don't let the f the mini failures, failures of the small F stop you because you've done the work to validate it. So that's where the the title of the Book came from. And I would say probably, you know, if you for me anyway, you know, we're all different. We all pull on different strengths. But for me, that that's been a big one is I will intensely dive into something to really understand it, to see if there's the opportunity to do something big. And then if there is, dive in again to do the plan of what that thing is going to be. What's the North Star and what's the blueprint to get you there? And then go in and You know, put blinders on and let the critics ch chirp away on the sidelines while you do it. It's it actually, you know, I we said we get to Michelle, it's one of the things her and I share. Different personalities, different, but that element of the preparation and the digging in is actually one of the real bonding agents in in why the partnership ⁓ has worked. But WWE, yeah, it was look, it was an amazing run. I said, when we started, companies worth less than a billion while we were there at Max at around seven or so. And then we rejoined the board, led the process to architect the the merger with UFC and that valued WWE at over nine billion. And and it was all this, you know, creation of a playbook that was new to sports. that we, you know, brought to the table. And and today it's it's why, you know, CBC wanted to work with us and form GSG together is because, you know, they value the playbook too, because they saw what it did at WWE and it really is a focus on, you know. Content, the data that subtends that how to create stars of your athletes, how to take a brand outside of your home market. really is flipping the prism of how do you think of sports. It's not about just what's on the field, but it about a core element of intellectual property and building the business around that. ⁓ everybody says they're doing that, and they are to some degree. I would say what we did at at WWE was pretty deep. and it and it's that playbook that we take. When I say playbook, it's not PowerPoint slides. It's about four hundred pages of text how what we did, how we created it, kind of the things you've got to deal with as as the person building it, like the the tensions and so on. So but yeah, it was it was a great run. Adam Grossman: Well we wanna see that book as well. Once this book comes out, we'll see both. ⁓ Yeah, ⁓ Well do wanna dive into the playbook. One thing I do wanna before we dive into that, the the point about confidence versus arrogance, and I think the idea of having confidence, I think people ⁓ can conflate that, but it really it is important to have confidence, right? You have to really believe in what you're doing and really have conviction. And that goes into exactly what you were talking about with the WWE. George Barrios: That would be the second book. I actually have started outlining that book. ⁓ so yeah. Adam Grossman: launching the WWE network, which obviously was foundational to what you're talking about in terms of the transformation of the WWE. One, can you talk about the WWE network? And two, how did that come to fruition? How did you start thinking about that as a path forward? George Barrios: Yeah, it's a great question. I would say, you know, WWE network in a lot of ways was a tactic. The the strategy really came out around of this notion of intellectual property, the belief that know, at that point we hadn't started with AI generated content, but certainly with user generated content. So our belief was there's gonna be a massive fragmentation of content because there there will be a glut of it, which is what transpired. You're gonna fragment people's time, so you have to win the battle for time. We became maniacal. I know you're a You're a data guy. We became maniacal about measuring time. And even to this day, people tell me they're doing it. I walk into the office, ask the person running, I go, Well, how many hours of content are you creating today? You crickets. What's the total time consumed across all platform? Crickets. So even to this day, you find it's still not we were doing it, you know, almost 15 years ago. That a strategy. Adam Grossman: Yeah. Yeah. George Barrios: WW Network was an S pod service, right? So for us, we said, look, we we're creating 300 hours of in-ring match content. That's what we do at WWE. That's great. What we're gonna end up doing over a long time, you know, it's gonna take us five to 10 years. We're gonna create another two to three thousand hours around that. it'll be on social, digital, portrait, horizontal, or you know, it was that level of detail. Content line by content line, where it's it, what's it going? What's the audience for it? So on and so forth. The SVOD, WW Network, we said, hey, this is for our most passionate fans. So this is not for every fan of wrestling. It's for our most passionate wrestling fans. And we're going to put content on there. We're going to take an existing distribution method, which was pay-per-view, where your people are paying $50 or $60 a month to access, you know, the prime event of the month, right? Our playoffs, if you will, WWE's playoffs. And we're gonna get away with that. We're gonna make it for the so the fans only have to pay ten dollars a month. And we're gonna do it there. Now, big change, right? I mean, and we cannibalize an incredibly profitable business. Every I remember it was one of the satellite guys, Direct TV or Dish, issued a press release saying what a dumb idea was it. Now, so you think about this huge company, and here we are, the little wrestling people ⁓ you know in Stanford, and it's this huge company throwing. I I remember telling Michelle, I go, you know. First they ignore you, you know, then they ⁓ laugh at you, right? And and and then you win. And I'm like, here we go. Right? So they've been ignoring us. Now they're yeah, now they're throwing darts at us. I go, we're on the right track. But yeah, we did it. Got a lot of criticism for it. You know, investors didn't like it because they saw the cannibalization of the existing business, but they didn't like it until it worked, you know, and yeah, a year later. Adam Grossman: Yeah. I was definitely lack, I guess. George Barrios: We had a million subscribers, it was profitable and and its peak, it was over two million subscribers, you know, two hundred million plus in revenue, about eighty million dollars in profit. So huge transformation. But again, people remember then they remember how what a big deal it was, and it was. I'm not taking away it was a big deal, but it really was a tactic. The real was the creation of a content factory, and we're gr now going to go into multiple places. So but yeah, it was ⁓ it was a a lot of fun. Adam Grossman: Yeah. But it's a fundamental change in the business model. And obviously, you had a lot of well documented clashes, put it mildly with ⁓ Vince McMahon. So one, what was the process like at the beginning when he first hired you, when you were first looking at it? And then two, obviously wrestling was and still is a live events business, or that's a big component of the business, and this is clearly a a shift in content. So how do those conversations go to get to the position where you could even launch them? George Barrios: Yeah, it's a great question. It gets back to the sometimes wrong, but never in doubt. And I'll tell the story. And I'll say the one thing, you know, you mentioned Vince, there is a element of the book, but he and I were worked together for well, twelve years when I was there running the company. Then a year and change when I rejoined the board. So that's a long time. I would say during all that time, we had one disagreement towards the end. and there was probably one one time that I said, Yeah, you know, I that I said something, you know, that pro that wasn't particularly nice, right? Only one time. Adam Grossman: Right. Right. George Barrios: so we had a it from my perspective, a great relationship. I I think you would say the same. We were never buddies. you know, there wasn't a lot of chit chat when we, you know, in the million meetings we had. It what we I always say, it was, you know, it's like high performing teammates or, you know, I've never been in in the military, but I've got a lot of friends who said it said, Yeah, that, you know, look, you don't like everybody around you, but the people you trust and respect, those are the people you want to have w when you're going into in in that case, into battle. And I would say sports team is the same way, and that's the relationship we had. But to the question. Yeah, I joined, ⁓ yeah, I still remember it. Yeah, again, tell the story in the book. I get a call from ⁓ I think it was Spencer Stewart, a guy I knew him, but I think it was Spencer Stewart he was with. I'm I'm drawing a blank. But he calls me. He's like, hey, you know, I got something. I think it's great. C CFO, it's a public company, and it's a big deal. Be a first-time CFO job in a public company is a is a big deal. They're hard to get. And I was like, ⁓ that's interesting. He's like, it's in Stanford. I'm like, ⁓ that well, that's even better. it saved me to commune to the city, so that's awesome. I'm like, so what so what is it? ⁓ he and he goes, WWE, I go, What's that? And he goes, you know, world wrestling, the wrestling, and I it's the exact phrase. I go, Are you fucking kidding me? You have called me for that. I'm like, I like so in any event, he goes, Well, yeah, I remember his ⁓ qu quick was hey, George. Adam Grossman: Yeah. Yeah. George Barrios: You're the guy that's always talking about you don't give a shit about people's opinions. You want to see the data and you'll make your own. I'm like, yeah. He goes, Do you know anything about the business? I go, no. and he goes, So maybe you don't think you follow your own advice? And I was like, Yeah, I'll call you later. Hung up, you know, did the work, looked around and said, hmm, this is interesting. I'd be lying if I said how interesting I would learn it is. But I was like, This is interesting. Seems like it's a bigger, you know, there's more at brand. Adam Grossman: Yeah. Right. George Barrios: Then there is value in the company. All right. So in any van, get in, look, hit it off first couple of first couple of years, we're dealing with the financial crisis. So you're doing shit that is not a lot of fun, which is battening down the hatches, getting through that. But we come out of that and we start thinking, all right, well, what's the growth? So Michelle and I look literally spend 12, 18 months doing the work, the spade work. Stuff that people are saying, hey, you're wasting your time. Even Vince is like, do we really need to do that? We're doing kind of deep consumer research all over the world. You know, US, Western Europe, relatively easy. It's intense, but relatively easy in places like India, Southeast Asia. Like we really want to understand where the brand is today. So we're doing that work. And at the same time, we're doing this work around, well, where do we think the media industry is going? Where do we think economics are gonna flow? You know, there's proliferation of content. What's that gonna do? How will, you know, what how where do we sit in there? And then the big unlock, which now seems like obvious, but when everybody, everyone disagreed with was sports isn't valuable. What's valuable is it's live. There's a lot of hours of it because seasons are long. It is tribal. The fan base is passionate. It's multi-generational. People pick it up as. ⁓ So you start doing that and saying, okay, like first principles thinking, it's not that it's a sport, it's that it has those attributes. And holy shit, so does wrestling. Holy shit. So our business model had been an infomercial. We give this content away for free, and then we sell tickets, t-shirts, and toys, which is a great business. But the unlock of work, and by the way, we said that the media laughed at us, they said it's wrestling. Adam Grossman: Exactly. Yeah. George Barrios: What you mean it's the same value as sports? It's a it's it's not there. It's it's scripted, it you know, the ending is known. That's not a sport. saying it doesn't matter. It's live with passionate fan base. And we kept saying that, and we kept saying that. And then eventually, you know, the people we had to convince, which were the intermediaries, right? The networks and distribution said, Yeah, you're right. God damn it, you're right. And so obviously that means. In their case, they've got to pay different economics to us, right? Because we're getting those they didn't want us to be right. But once eventually, when people just saw it, but that was the unlock. The network specifically, right? Because you're saying that really hard. I remember Vince pushing really created the pay-per-view business, right? So telling the guy not just the intellectual element of why this is going to work, but the emotional element of like, hey, we're killing the baby here with that. Yeah, it was hard. But you know, Vince ultimately, and Adam Grossman: Right. Well, can we George Barrios: I should say ⁓ like what you people think and see on TV, right? The difficulty of working with Vince wasn't that Vince, you know, I think people would assume he's loud, he's ⁓ he's not. He's a stoic. The real difficulty is getting him to tell you what he's thinking, right? It's very hard. I'm the opposite, right? I won't stop telling you what I think, right? I'm ⁓ so totally different personalities in that way. But yeah, that work around the network was just a lot of, it was a lot of. leg work and spade work and thinking. How does this fit within the entire, you know, our content factory model? Where does a s an S bod service fit? And, you know, again, if he got comfortable because he saw the amount of work and thinking and how we were going to do it, as well as how how we're going to build this out, you know, the the mundane element, you know, what what a lot of investors call the blocking and tackling. I'm like, yeah, you obviously never play football. Cause anybody who's ever played football never Adam Grossman: Yeah, exactly. George Barrios: says brocking and tackling in kind of like a dismissive way, right? It's like it's the goddamn that is the game. So in any event, you're right. So but w he he had seen it, he got comfortable, but it was scary. Look, I mean I you know, when we launch and the pay per view business goes to zero and now we're building up a subscriber base. Yeah, man, it w it was it w it was be lying if I'd say it was scared. It was it it was a swamp of you know, I talk about the swamp of despair in the book, you know, the the the journey you have to go through. Adam Grossman: Yeah, right. George Barrios: Emotionally, when you're doing something big, right? Because the problem is if it's big, it ain't easy. And so this is not easy. And if it's big, there will be naysayers because it's not easy, right? To be big, you're going against the status quo. The status quo is never big. So you gotta find and it's hard. And so we were in the swamp. You know, I remember Michelle, you know, I learned about the swamp during that time. You know, to read stuff and say, hey. Adam Grossman: Yeah, exactly. George Barrios: How how do you get through this? And I saw that and I'm like, holy shit, this is what it is. And the swamp is, great idea. Holy, holy shit. You know, what did we do? And then you kind of claw your way out. and then you come and then you get out and you're like, all right, like we should just stop. We got out of that mess. But if you keep going, you know, and if you were right and you keep going, all of a sudden you look back and go, man, this is the greatest thing I've ever done. And so yeah, her and I were in the swamp. I mean, you talk about the relationship. I would say, well, I think one of the reasons I was able to get through the swamp was because she was there, right? With me, right? And having my back. And at times like that, you know, look, the reality is people run for the exits, you know, and they start going, ⁓ that was his idea, not mine, you know. And you know, she never did that. I didn't do that to her. And I and I think frankly, that's what built the trust that allowed us to be, you know. for that partnership to work. Because it is hard. People ask me all the time, you brought it up. know, how you know, do you recommend that you know the the the co CEO model? I'm like, hell no. really hard. If you would have asked me, do I want to be a co hell no, I don't want to be a guy. I want to be CEO. I know what I want to do. I don't I don't want to have, you know, somebody that then I gotta, you know, figure out how to make work. But for us it's I I think A, you know, people always assume because of our backgrounds, ⁓ you guys Adam Grossman: Yeah. George Barrios: filling each other's, you know, weak spots. Not really. I mean, in some ways you might argue that we amplify our weaknesses. The reason it works is because we think the same way. You know, we approach the problem the same way. We have the same level of intensity and work ethic, you know, which is hard to find. I always say what what you wanna do is find the Venn diagram, the intersection of intellect, integrity and energy. You know, the people who match you on those things. And we match on those things. You know, we're you I'll have your integrity not meaning that you're not gonna cheat. Integrity meaning I'm gonna have your back when shit gets tough. Energy, the the willingness to push and never stop. And then the intellect, the competence, like you can do this. And you know, I always said that's what worked, but yeah, it was it was I I remember the vividly w talk a lot about of the of some of those meetings that led to that, you know, and the dialogue. And as I was read re as I was writing the book and remembering, you know. Adam Grossman: Exactly. George Barrios: Some of it you kind of laugh, like cause you you were just you know, you were sitting there kind of pointing fingers at each other, getting angry at each other, you know. I still remember Vince at one point, you know, big Vince McMahon, right? You know, he's a whatever he's six toothed he is, he's a giant, you know, a physically intimidating guy. And a and every once in a while he'd go, George, stop yelling at me. You know, he'd like because I get excited, ⁓ my voice rises. So yeah, no, it's a it's a lot of good stories, a lot of fun. Adam Grossman: Well, to dive into the with Michelle, how started, how it's going. But one of the interesting things about the book, like you talked about, there's the never in doubt, but the swamp of despair and the balance of those two things and how those all work together and probably work together to build a relationship with Michelle. So let's dive into the relationship with Michelle. How did it get started? You mentioned the co CEO model and how has it, when you're in the battle, you're in the this swamp of despair. ⁓ How has that helped to build the relationship and how have you guys been able to navigate it for so George Barrios: Yeah, and look, it happened. We we kind of joined the company, you know, within a few months of each other. didn't ha didn't know each other up until then. so, you know, you start it typical, you know, between any colleagues, and you know, both of us were in the C suite, so we're you know, we're part of the ma the senior management team. So it's like, hey, you know, and you're saying how do you think about the world? Why'd you join? You learn about each other's experience. So we were doing that. But the the real kind of bonding element at the start was ⁓ Adam Grossman: Yeah. George Barrios: You know, I told her the story is the same story I told you about when the recruiter called me. Now, Michelle had worked for Vince earlier in her career XFL, launched the XFL. So she had worked with him whatever it was, eight, nine, ten years prior to then rejoining. So she knew him. And so we talked about that. But you know, I said to her and she goes, Yeah, I agree. It's like it there there's this is a really good business. But when you look at it, you and you look at the the intensity of the fandom, you're like, it should be bigger. Why isn't it bigger? You know, and that and she goes, I agree. And so then it became this, and again, back to the similarity we share is like, all right, let's dig in. We talked about we need to have a better understanding of our ca you know, not this bullshit UGUB data that, you know, is out there. We got to go really deep, really deep, and understand how our Fans think about what we do. However, we really need to understand because we don't. You know, the stuff we have boilerplate, you know, what everybody has, which is fine. It's okay. But if we're looking for nuggets, you know, golden nuggets, things that haven't been pulled out yet, we gotta go a lot deeper. So that was part of the work. And you know, we also said we also gotta have a point of view of how this industry is gonna change, right? 2008. You're still kind of midway through, you know, what's happening in the media industry. The, the, you know, the cataclysm hasn't happened yet, right? But we, you know, we actually had we still shit in front of the board in 2010, 11 that basically mimics all the stuff we talk about today with the mergers ⁓ the networks losing their, you know, their their power in essence. We had that all laid out, you know, and what we were then talking about. So how do where do we fit in that? And you know, during that, it was like, okay, we're wrestling back to the pivot. Wrestling, all right, that that's good. But it was during that digging that I said, like I said, sounds now. Everybody disagreed. It's like, nah, man, what's valuable here isn't sport, it's live. And we're that. And that ⁓ is what we're how we're going to reposition us. And look, and then you know, I always tell with it, there was not one action, it was a million little things, even as you know, we we talked to the portfolio companies. You know, that we're invested in now. talk about B B2B PR. You know, one of the things we did early on, we said, we're gonna release a, you know, people don't get who we are, or they have ⁓ it's worse. They know who we are and they have their own perception, and we gotta, we gotta pivot that. And it was, we our thing was a press release a day. Every time we tell people that, they chuckle. I was like, no, it was a press release a day. And this, and it wasn't just, I'm not, we're not making shit up. Adam Grossman: Right. George Barrios: We went to every executive in the company, right? Our teams and said, This is what we're gonna do every week on Friday. You're gonna put ten things that you think in your area of the business are worth talking about. Now the truth is nobody's got ten things every week, but you're gonna give us ten. Right. So all of a sudden you got, you know, a hundred ideas, and that's the that's now goes into the top of the funnel to what we're doing next week, right? We're doing a press release a day. Adam Grossman: Yeah. George Barrios: Was it always five a week or something seven a week? No, not always, but it was that type of cadence. And like most things with her and I, it's not just some random stuff. We built a machine, right? A machine data driven, right? Because we we were one of the early investors internally in data and analytics, including to support the PR effort, of what how is each message getting out there and how is it doing? And then let's continue to amplify the things that work. So in any event, even it's something where people go, ⁓ press release. There was a ⁓ that's part of the playbook. And it's not just to do what I just said, you gotta build a system, a machine that makes that happen. So in any event, it w it was that we bonded over that as a transition. Again, back to the swamp of this Her and I sit in front of the board in 2010, I think, 10, yeah, 10 or 11, and we're like, here it is. Here's what we're gonna do over the next five years. This is where we're We think we can take the business. And we're saying we think we can 10X the business. And everybody's like, well, that's increasing. I don't think even Vince believed it. You know, and he was the the cheerleader about WWE. I don't think he even believed it. And we're like, no, we can do this. And let me explain to you why. You know, we did a whole bunch of work to show how much live consumption, what live hours we're getting in the marketplace, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All this stuff. How it impacts sponsorship. Have the idea for the S Fod service laid out there. So we put that you know out there. We were so excited, right? We're man, this is good work. And board agreed, right? We're going. Well, guess what? Now you're going, and shit's not working exactly like it got laid out. And now people are, you know, it was painful. And back to the relationship. She never lost faith. I certainly did because we had done the work and we could see the work working. It just wasn't manifesting into economics, right? Because you're on a renewal cycle with your partners that's three or five years long. So Adam Grossman: Yeah. George Barrios: You gotta wait, but you c we could see it working. Investors, you're public, so everything is out there. They're chirping in saying they're not, you know, they're not happy. Analysts are criticizing it, but until it all starts working. And that took about three or four years. So that journey, we were in the swamp. And some days really deep in the swamp, others just kind of heads above water getting through it. But ultimately that's what forged the the the partnership. You know, that's where the The intellect was obvious, right? We could see that each other, we we could hang with each other, and there was a steel sharpened steel element to it. The intensity and work ethic was obvious, right? We this is what we loved to do. And we and we both loved it, right? It was a crap. We were passionate about we did. But that integrity, and I always said there's probably a better word I got to come up with because integrity sounds like, well, everybody has integrity. It's it's it's the trust, really. You know, it's the thing that you know somebody's have your back. when it's not easy. Every the everybody'll have your back when it's easy. When it's not easy, right? When their reputation is on the line, when their financial success is on the line, that people, you know Adam Grossman: Exactly. George Barrios: Everybody changes when those two things, that's what people care about, their reputation and their financial and their health. So that's not in question here. That so that we could get through that and support each other, right? that builds a bond. So I always tell people, don't I wouldn't ever recommend two people co-saying. I wouldn't recommend it because you need kind of this unique, you know, context, I think, to make it work. Otherwise, I think it's really hard. Adam Grossman: you mentioned this earlier that you had a good relationship with Vince, and you mostly got along. You created a lot of success for the company over that time period. But it came, in and around twenty twenty there was a decision point made about the particularly around the WWE network and what Vince was potentially gonna do in terms of relaunching the XFL. And then you're kind of back in this fire, right? To see like what's going to happen going forward with your career. Can you talk about that that experience and how George Barrios: Yeah. Yeah, I mean look, it ends up with me getting fired in January twenty twenty, right? Yeah. I remember when I told Michelle about the book, she's like, You're not writing that, are you? I'm like, ⁓ yeah, I'm writing that. ⁓ all in there. You know, I'm like, I ⁓ you know, for better or worse. Yeah, it's ⁓ it's a yeah, that part that's what I told her. I go, Well, ⁓ Michelle, they people know that. They didn't know the story, but they know that they knew that. yeah, so look, I mean, I remember, I think it was an early nineteen Adam Grossman: Right, right. Ha ha ha. I guess I'm very public, right? So George Barrios: Her and I are in a in a in a car, you know, on some business trip. You know, I would say it was either it out international, so it was either Dubai, Shanghai, or Mumbai. You it was one of the three. I can't remember which one. But you know, it's early 19. We've kind of killed it, you know. The the business has done great, the the stock has gone through the roof. You know, there's always things you're dealing with. But I we kind of maybe it was late 18, or late 18, early 19. And she to me and she goes, ⁓ Adam Grossman: Yeah. George Barrios: She goes, I know we knew it was going to work, but did you really ever think it was going to be this good? And I go, I'm like, well, hold on. I've got that board material, you know, I've got our strategy that we laid out, right? 150 pages of this is what we're going to do, this is how it's going to get done. This is why we believe it. And I flipped to it. I, you know, the front page of that says, we're going to do these 10 things, right? There's thousands of details going on, but there's 10 things and we're going to. know, five to ten X the company. I go and there are the things written out. And I showed it to her. And she goes, Yeah. She goes, We did know. And I'm like, Yep, we know. We wrote it down. So and she got she choked up. I choked up. So we're in that. You know, that's where we were. During that time, you know, her and I would talk and was saying, Hey, look, you know, this co stuff is great, but I want to go do my own thing. You know, I I want to lose the code. And she said, Yeah, me too. Yeah, I want to go do my own thing too. So we were talking about it. And then into you're in the summer of nineteen and I remember being in her office, I'm like, Yeah, you know, I think I'm you know, I'm after the next earnings call or board meeting, I'm gonna go tell Vince that, you know, I'm I'm ready to leave and you know, and I'll and we'll figure out a plan. And she's like, Holy shit, she goes, I was gonna tell them the same thing. And I was like, ⁓ my God. And so then it's like, holy shit. I go, well, should we tell him separately? Should we tell him together? ⁓ my God, what are we gonna do? He's gonna lose his mind. ⁓ my God. You know, we're like in a panic now, even though we kind of knew it was coming, but that it happened So said, I think best if we go tell him together. So anyway, there we are. It's ⁓ late July, August of 19. We go in there and say, Hey, look, we're gonna go do our own thing. And it just so happens she was thinking this, all right, blah, blah, blah. You know, he he he you know, and and by the way, we got let's do a six month plan. So we'll tell, you know, we'll publicize it that we're leaving, but it'll be a transition. Hey, maybe we even stay on the board to make it look very you know, like we're here to help. So there's no big thing. It's just company's in a great spot, transition, but he gets, you know, chokes up, you know, there's tears in his eyes. He's like, We can't do this. This thing has been ⁓ good. you know, we're in there for two hours. And he's like, We gotta make it work. You know, we're talking through a bunch of things. I, you know, and we come out of that meeting. I still remember she told me afterwards, she goes, I was right, which she was. She goes, We should just stick to what we were gonna do. You know, it the time is right. Let's leave on I and I'm like, No, Michelle, come on. ⁓ there's still more to be done here, which there was, and there's more great things to do, which there were. I go, let I we can figure out a way to to make it all work where we all get what we want. So anyway, that's what we tried to do. Spend a couple of months you know, trying to figure that out. But you know, pe that's when the PowerPoint comes out and you're like, well, maybe if we change this or change that that that whole process caused everybody's heart to harden, you know, all of a sudden it went from this is awesome to, you know. You're trying to do that now. And so it it it it really did. You know, I felt that way. I won't speak for Michelle. I think ⁓ yeah, I can't speak for either one of them, but I think everybody felt that way. And we started kind of interacting with each other differently. Not Michelle and I, but you know, me and Vince and and Michelle and Vince and when the three of us got together, it was stilted. and then there was a period there you know, Vince had said something to me and this at one time I responded kind of pretty, you know, you know, not happily back. And at that point I knew I'm like, I'm out of here, you know. And so we got a earnings call, ⁓ know, we the of the year, you know, early on in the year, the following year. I'm gonna stay a couple more months. and then but after that earnings call, when we I'm ⁓ I'm having that conversation with them, and this time there is no I'm coming. So Anyway, the those two months as we're waiting, things just get worse. I mean, it's it's just you can just feel it. And so we have a board meeting early, you know, late January, which is you know, it's a strategy for the next, you know, the operating plan for net for the following year, the strategy, all that kind of stuff, but it's got a different vibe. I've got a different vibe, you know. I'm a you know, I'm a pretty passionate guy and energetic and you know, can be a little irreverent. All of that's gone, right? I'm just kind of basically going through the motions. So come out of that, you know, Vince said, Hey, can you come into the office? And in my office I go in and he's like, Yeah, this isn't working. And he goes, So we're ending it. And I go, Well, yeah, you're you're right. It's not working. L this is what I'm thinking, you know, we can announce something after the earnings call and he's No, no, no, we're today. And I said, Today I'm like, go, That's not gonna go over well. You know, and I told him I'm I Vince, he goes, George, he goes, you know, this it was it was cordial. He he just goes, look, when you he goes, you know how I feel. He goes, when you know you gotta do something, you just gotta pull the bandit. I Yeah, Vince, but that it's just it's it's not gonna be good internally, it's not gonna be good externally. I'm I'm telling you, I don't think that's a good idea. He's like, no, my mind's made up. I said, All right, well, your mind's made up. It's been good knowing you. ⁓ you know, thing got announced, you know, he had the same conversation with Michelle separately, and then they announced it that night. Stock dropped like I don't know, 30, 40 percent overnight in one day. When it gets out, I remember Jim Kramer the next day on CMBC is like, I thought Barrios was doing a great job or something like that, you know. that was it. I I still remember, you know, Richard Davis. You know, I at that point, ⁓ I was yeah, we had just brought on, I was on the make a wish board. It was before I became chairman of the board. And we had just brought in Richard Davis as a CEO. And Richard, you know, world CEO that ran US Bank, you know, one of the most famous financial CEOs in the world. Adam Grossman: Yeah. George Barrios: So he's you know, the fact, you know, the fact that at one point he was working for me because I was the chair of the board was a little bit of a joke, but but he's a great guy. I mean, you know, talking about a servant leader, he's that. But anyway, he calls me, he goes, Hey, how are you doing? You know, because he sees the release too. I'm like, ⁓ you know, and I told him the story, a little truncated version I just told you. And he goes, Hey, he goes, Look, George, at the end of the day though, if anybody ever asks you how much you're worth, ⁓ he goes, by my calculation, I forget what it is, 2.7 billion dollars, you know, is the amount of the drop in the stock price. Adam Grossman: Yeah, right. Exactly. The numbers there's the numbers of the data right there. ⁓ George Barrios: ⁓ and I was like, I'm like, yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, like that's pretty good. I like that. I'll I'll be using that. so but it was a nice goal. And I got a lot of those, a lot of people who had kind of been along in the journey said, Hey, you know and and it was tough because you have this great movie, and I'm a big believer, life's a movie, it's not a snapshot. You can't fixate on w a s single events. But yeah, this movie had a you know, yeah, yeah. Ending, but it was, and you know, we went on our way, and you know, then it allowed me and Michelle to actually decide, you know what, we don't want to do our own thing, let's keep ⁓ it together. You know, that was a whole discussion, which I go through in the book. I almost actually took a different role, you know, doing what I want to do. And my wife goes, and we're in the middle of code. And my wife goes, you know, you can do that if you want, you know, I'll you know, she'll I'll support you, but you're talking about that thing. ⁓ Adam Grossman: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. George Barrios: A lot differently than when you're talking about maybe doing something with Michelle. There you get that f fire in your eyes. The other thing sounds like you're kind of convincing yourself. So anyway, we just we decided to do it. And look at a few months later, and this gets to people thought there was a a like animosity between us. We called Vince up, you know, the summer of 2020, so five or six months after we left and said, Hey, you know, we'd love to go out to dinner and catch up. Now, Vince is not a, I'm gonna go have dinners and lunch kind of guy, right? Adam Grossman: Yeah. Exactly. Right. George Barrios: He is a I work 18 to 20 hours a day kind of guy, not the I go for lunch. And that's what he does. So he immediately goes, I'd really like that. Just like that. And we were like, ⁓ that's awesome. And so the three of us went to this place in Greenwich called LaScale and you know, kind of re reminisced. Obviously, we're all in the middle of COVID there. WWE's going through a tough time. He, you know, he was really kind of goes, if we wouldn't have done what you guys did. Adam Grossman: Right, exactly. Right. Right. Yeah. George Barrios: We w you know, Cirque de Soleil. So if you looked at and Cirque de Soleil back when Michelle and I joined, same business. So Cirque du Soleil, once COVID hit, went bankrupt immediately within weeks. Yeah, Vince, you know, Vince is a smart guy. He goes, if we wouldn't have done everything you guys did, same thing would happen. The reality is WWE had one of its even though they weren't doing events, had one of its most profitable years in ⁓ because the business had gotten so big and the content factory was fueling so much of the economics. So Adam Grossman: Yeah, I Yeah. George Barrios: In any event, it was great. And then look, I'd be lying if I didn't say when, you know, and I and I you know, the prologue which is available on on my website. You can see it, you know, it's a sneak peek on the book and you can read it. I'm I'm visiting my mom in in in in Miami. I'm Cuban, so you know, I love getting down to Miami. ⁓ I'm visiting my mom in Miami. Phone rings and it's him, it's Vince. This is now in twenty twenty three. And know, he tells me he wants me to come back, you know that he's thinking of doing something big. not sure exactly what it is, but he goes, I need the A team. would you come back? And I said, Yeah, sure. Of course, you know, no hesitation. He goes, You think Michelle would come back? And and like, I well, I don't know, but I think she would. He goes, Well, can you ask her? And I was like, Yeah, sure. ⁓ So here's Vince a little nervous about making the call to Michelle. He goes, Can you ask her? And I was like, Yeah. But I I'd be lying if I didn't say rejoining the board, you know. ⁓ Adam Grossman: Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. George Barrios: Because I told the story to my, you know, the colleagues and and business partners that I told just told you, but people were like, Yeah, that's bullshit. He fired you. And that's it. Nobody believed it, though what I just said. So when we rejoined the bird, well, all of a sudden, that was the the ending to the movie. You know, I mean, that now the now the movie, you know, you had to you got to rewrite the ending. so this kind of, you know, I remember going back into the building for the first time, people are hugging me, you know, ex-colleagues. WrestleMania the following year, you know, as and as ⁓ we were actually closing the deal with UFC over that weekend. But, you know, you see everybody there, business partners are there, you know, yeah, it it's like a triumphant return. So, you know, didn't plan it that way, but ⁓ I'd be lying if I s didn't say it was it was a great quota. ⁓ Adam Grossman: I was gonna say it's a good ending of the movie. you brought it up and I do want to talk about that, Yeah, what was it like coming back to the board, negotiating the deal with UFC, getting the call from Vince? I mean, it's quite a return. I'm not sure we have the time in this episode to cover what you were doing in between those years and everything with ISO's capital, but which will happy to have you back on and talk all about all those things as well. But talk about the return, this triumphant return, this great deal. I don't think it's like it's looking better every day, I should say. ⁓ George Barrios: Yeah. Yeah. So I would love to be back on and talk about Yeah. And I'd love to come back on and and actually talk about what we're doing 'cause we think it's really cool what we're doing, Global Sport Group. But yeah, Michelle and I had left, had hit a home run right out of the gate, took Bolero public immediately, had a venture. So we were doing great. Awesome. We're now working on our next thing, which ended up turning into what we're doing now in a s kind of roundabout way, but that's what ended up happening. But we paused. Adam Grossman: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. George Barrios: Because we get I get the call. My I'm in my family, and I'll get the call. I call Michelle and she's like, Are you kidding me? And I'm like, No. He goes, and and she goes, Well, what what did he say? He's he said, look, he's, you know, he's ready for the next thing. I had always said, you know, after we had reached our level of success in that 1819, we, you know, we had hit the ball at the park, I Hey Vince, the next next big thing we either acquire somebody, right? And I ⁓ not to get into the the meat of it, but it you know the s the importance of scale I thought was going to be really important and very valuable. Or we you know merge with somebody or get a quiet you know that was an idea. So I think as he is in his head is thinking, hey look, you know, it's time for me to transition. And you know he's thinking of it that plan and what he wants to do now with his life. You know, he's 80 at that point, 7980. He said, hey George, remember what you used to say about scale and you know Yeah, he has his own language around us a little different than mine, but he I knew what he meant. and I go, Yeah. He goes, I think that's it. I'm like, so you're ready to kind of entertain that because it it could mean that you're we're not acquiring. Maybe we decide the best thing is he goes, Yeah, I'm ready for any of it. I just wanna have WWE, you know, one big thing. All right, any of it. So we rejoin and ⁓ yeah, I'm I'm I don't think, you know, not all the board members were thrilled we were coming back. But ⁓ 'cause there was a new board and you know, there's yeah, probably there's kind of the dynamic thing, a little bit of like, ⁓ Vince thinks he's gotta bring other people in to to do this, but whatever. but you know, it all worked out well. We all got along great. and yeah, we we did a lot of hard thinking about well, w you know, what is the right model? And we set, you know, and our our view is like There were a lot of good partners but you know, the idea of if very early on, even before we went through the process where you're getting bids from people, or you know, there were a few that we thought made a lot of sense. and UFC was certainly at the top of it. ⁓ you know, you'd have this combat sports behemoth basically, ⁓ the two large, you if you want to put us and people say, Well, it's not a sport, whatever, but ⁓ things are happening, combat it's happening in a ring, they're the two behemoths in in the world, right? And they're both, you know, roughly the same size. and I'm you know, again, because of the scale issue, one one, and I never I always call bullshit when somebody talks to me about one plus one being three, I go, No, it's not. this one, because of the scale of eyeballs. I mean, the shorthand is I thought if if you had one eyeball, it was worth X, but if you had two eyeballs, it wasn't two X, it was two point five X, right? And when you're talking about millions, yeah, right. So I I believed that and I had a very hard, you know. data driven point of view on that. So in any event, we did a a process, typical strategic process. Yeah, we had multiple bidders. Obviously everybody was very interested and we just and we ultimately thought the best deal was was the one we picked and and it's been a home run. I mean it was a great deal when we did it and it stock I think is d I don't you know I'm I'm I'm no longer in the in the stock, but I think the stock's almost doubled since since we did it. So it was a it was an amazing deal. So ⁓ two great the one we built Adam Grossman: That's clear. George Barrios: And the one they had built came together and and one plus one was is better than that is more than two. So yeah, it was great. But you know, the ego element. I I I'm a kind of usually the, you know, don't really give a fuck, you know, what people think of me. I you know, so I kind of I don't I ⁓ stuff kind of flows off my back for the most part. but you know, I I would be lying if I didn't say that that that being public, that we were back, this great outcome, you know, the kind of the warm welcome I got. you know, going back to the company was great. I in fact what Vince meet meets us. So ⁓ that dinner, we hadn't seen each other face to face, or it'd been texts from time to time, but it'd been three years or so since we had seen each other. And we go back into the building, you know, go up to the you know, the executive floor in the building. He's there we're waiting in the alcove, waiting for us as we kind of come off the elevator. and he's like, Welcome back. No, welcome home. And and he got a little choked up. We got a little choked up. I think the only reason we didn't s break out crying is this that was the period where he I don't know if you remember, but he he had a little pencil thin mustache he had grown, like the Clark Gable look. which for a guy who'd never had facial hair and I remember when I was I was like, What the hell is that? ⁓ you know, but ⁓ in fact I thought he was joking me 'cause I had grown my little goatee and I thought that was him poking fun at me for for doing but anyway, it was really warm. it it was a it was a Adam Grossman: Maybe Right. George Barrios: is a moment I'll you know, it's kind of frozen in my head. Adam Grossman: Yeah, well maybe he did it for that reason, so you guys wouldn't start crying. ⁓ there's a lot of meat on the bone here. We will definitely have you back and talk a bunch of different things. But you mentioned throughout it's very important to us is data and data driven decision making and understanding the fans. and obviously that was a through line throughout your career at the WWE, it's been a through line to your career both, since the return and then after you've left. So what does that mean? Like when you say you're looking at the data, what does that mean? What do people not totally understand about fans? What should people be thinking about when when thinking about fans? George Barrios: It well look, everybody gets the the data, you know, and it's not like that people don't understand that they get it. It I always say is are you willing to do the difficult stuff? So I'll give an example. ⁓ as you know, data of how pieces of content are doing on an individual platform is relatively easy to do, right? If you're on YouTube or Facebook or Ticket, you'll get that data. What's much harder, because these are proprietary reporting systems, right? What's much harder is to take to know how one piece of content that was on multiple platforms, how that content is doing across the board. So that you cannot only look at, hey, I got a hundred streams or or I got a million streams or 10 million, whatever, but that you know this piece of content, this is how it did overall, this is where it did better relative to other having the system in place, right? The guts of the system, I must say it's not the data analysis, it's the data engineering, putting the architecting that so you can do that Real time, not ad hoc, where you're like, ⁓ I well, you know, let's look at this. But so that every producer's producing content is seeing that real time. So our athletes are seeing how theirs are doing, right? And and people are now kind of inspired by what's working, what's not working. That infrastructure, you know, we built that from scratch. I said when we s when I started, there were zero data engineers and zero data analysts. When I left, we had small teams of both. But it's doing that. And what you see when you go around is Of course people are using data, but they don't have they I always say they they they they dabble in it. They do a little bit and then it's like all right, well this it's gonna cost this much. It's second order impact a lot of times. So that when you're trying to put the business case together, you know, you have somebody going, Well, yeah, but so we'll spend ⁓ blah blah on the data. Well, where are we gonna get it? And you start saying, Well, the better we understand our our fans, the better we'll engage them. So media rights or bettering rights, that it'll drive that, but it's not direct. So you have to believe that. Sponsorship, the same thing. You know, it's like be not you're not selling every eyeball, but when your sponsor pitch shows this deep understanding of your fans, that then you can help this your sponsor activate because you understand the fans. So all of that, you have to believe that. There's a, it's not, it, har it's not a direct economic, like I build the widget, I know I can sell the widget for X. It's not that. And that so that's the that's the issue with data being really driven through an organization. Michelle and I both believed, and then we saw it work, right? So we have the belief in there, and then we saw what it did. So when we go in, we're very passionate advocates for that investment. And then you know what we try to do is bring the CEOs and boards along that saying we get it, it looks like a cost center. This is gonna be the best investment. You know, five years from now, you're gonna be looking back and saying this is the best investment. Adam Grossman: And then this goes to our final question, which we ask all our guests in line with the data is artificial intelligence, And how you think about artificial intelligence, either as an investor or you mentioned before one of the things you leaned into early was the disruption in content and content creation and the importance of live. So hey, what do you think? ⁓ artificial intelligence from a data perspective that the importance of live content. ⁓ Yeah. George Barrios: Yeah. Yeah. Well look, I I yeah, I mean, you know it's it's right, it's we it's the biggest thing probably that I'll see in my lifetime. You're younger than me, you might see something bigger afterwards. I probably won't. I mean i this is that big. I always say it's not the internet. ⁓ this is much more like the integrated circuit. It is foundational technology that's gonna do it. The internet was connecting a bunch of computers. Yes, it transformed the world. I get it, but there wasn't real core technology there. Adam Grossman: Yeah. George Barrios: The integrated circuit there was, right? That that changes things. The steam engine that changes the world. The integrated circuit changed the world. It allowed for the internet. And I think that's what we're seeing here. So like everybody, it's absolute fun foundational. Here's the thing, and I've seen it a million times. Every time new things happen, people dabble, especially the the incumbents, right? Because making, you t in my view. Adam Grossman: Right, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. George Barrios: To get the real value of AI. It's not typing shit into Chat GPT, even or layering agents. rethinking the entire business of how it, ⁓ it the business should operate. You know, that's startups have big advantages, right? Because they're they don't have the tech or cultural debt that incumbents do. ⁓ so now, so that to me is the is the need to have your hair on fire on this. Now, I will say this. Adam Grossman: Exactly. Exactly. George Barrios: Sports, which is the asset class or the business I know the best, has a massive moat, right? It is very hard for a startup to do anything that's going to hurt, you know, in our case, La Liga, Ligoon, Volleyball World, Equine Network. These are businesses that have, you know, in business term, real moats. But getting back to the question, the the challenge, right, that every business will have is to resist the temptation to dabble. So everybody's doing something in AI. Everybody. Because you'd look like an idiot if you weren't. Right? So you're doing it's are you really doing? Yeah, ⁓ yeah, okay, everybody's got chatbots in the on their ⁓ you know, that they have can access. Okay, great. That's good. You're building knowledge bases, that's good. But if I were the CEO of a company today, I'd be thinking, ⁓ what does this look like if I were to rebuild what I'm doing today? Adam Grossman: Right. George Barrios: From an A now with this tool available, what would that look like? Not how do I duct tape it on, but how what would it look if I really was building something today? And so I would also say, look, it's another thing that Michelle and I bond us is we don't dabble. Like we do a lot of work to figure out what to do, and then in my words, not hers, we execute violently. Right? So we we will now once we decide we're going to well then now we're going. You know, and we're going hard and and we don't dabble. and that's not for everyone, by the way. but it works for us. But I I would say to me, yeah, it's transformational. I've the thing is, I think the winners will be the ones that don't dabble, and then the other ones won't win as much. Although like I mentioned, in our lucky case, what we're involved with, there is a pretty big moat around that, even for something as transformational as AI. Adam Grossman: Yeah, and as we talked about, we'll talk about those other things next time you're on the podcast. But yeah. George Barrios: Yeah. This has been the green grade. I'd love to do it. I and I'm really impressed with what you guys are doing, so I I would love to be on there. Adam Grossman: Appreciate that and we should get the book titled in one more time before we go. George Barrios: Yeah, sometimes wrong but never in doubt. George Barrios dot com, like I mentioned, you can order it as well as read the prologue and and see if you think you like it. Adam Grossman: George, great to have you on podcast. We'll have you back on soon and and thanks for your time. George Barrios: All right, then great.