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What Makes a Strong Brand? It's Not Your Logo or Colors · Imperfect Marketing

• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Kendrick Corman.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a coach, consultant, or marketer, you know marketing is far from a perfect science.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why this show is called Imperfect Marketing.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Join me and my guests as we explore how to grow your business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned along the way.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Imperfect Marketing.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Kendra Horman, and today I am joined by Matt Ramanik, and we are going to be talking about branding, right?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Having a brand and why that is so important.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because everyone's always looking at metrics, right?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a lot more to it than that.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm really excited to have you.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining me.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm excited to be here too.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did you get into marketing?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start at the beginning.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I uh I got thrown into it actually.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I started my career in the music industry.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I was actually a content creator.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was uh working with bands and record labels, um, shooting video and uh creating content on the web before YouTube was even around and uh trying to make sense of all that.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um after uh after a few years of doing that, I uh ended up in the action sports industry.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I worked at a uh Quicksilver for a long time.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I actually started there as a web designer.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was using my design background, and that's how I got my foot in the door there.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And um I I owe a lot to actually a supervisor that I had um at one point who he basically pulled me in his office and he said, Okay, we've we've got we we got two paths we can take here.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: One, you can keep doing what you're doing.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um the the crew the path on that is looks like this, and it was kind of uh wah wah, okay.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other path was like, okay, well, the other option is um we have this new marketing role open, and I think you'd be really good at it.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Okay, I'll do that, you know.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was kind of trial by fire um at first, and it was it was hard to let go of my instinct to want to uh create tactile things and design things.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so that was it was a little bit of a learning curve, but um, you know, that was 20 years ago now, and uh, I've not really looked back.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: So uh fast forward to today, now I run an agency called Sunnyside.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um we work with those type of brands that I have uh personal experience with, and a lot of our team come from similar companies.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we work with um a lot of different lifestyle brands, clothing brands, footwear, accessories, women's bins.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we uh yeah, we we take a approach of um uh uh generating profitable revenue for these types of companies through uh paid ads and marketing and advertising.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I'm excited to talk about it and um hopefully uh provide some info that can be useful to everybody.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I always love asking marketers like how they got started on their journey because it's always so colorful, right?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's not always like a straight line, right?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's usually got some weaving in there.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's fantastic.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that with us.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so let's talk about brand, right?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: What is to you, what is what makes up a brand?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: What makes it so important?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great question because uh I think a lot of times, especially with newer companies or smaller companies, uh it's the thing that tends to get overlooked the most, right?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: You focus on your product and maybe like what that product solves, and you think about sort of um how you're how you're going to bring that to people and maybe um even some of the marketing that goes into it.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: But to me, a brand boils down to really four things.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's uh what uh who you're for, like so who are you, who's the brand for?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: What is your target customer?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like what are you uh who are they?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like where the where are they from?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um what your product, what problem it solves.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, that might be anything from it solves uh the door from creaking at night when you open it.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: It could be anything, right?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it could be literal or figurative.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's another big one.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: The third one is um what makes you famous?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So what is it that's going to allow you to stand out, right?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is what's the thing that makes the brand special?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like what will it be that someone remembers about you if um if they were talking to somebody?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: The last one is just um what's gonna make people come back?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is going to be the thing that they uh they really uh convinces them that is this is something they need in their life, right?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think a lot of times, and I did this uh starting my own business um just out of habit from the type of companies that I've worked for in my career, but um, it was something that especially in the beginning, it's worth taking the time to think about and really anchor your uh your business against because it's harder to do later.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if you get a head start and you kind of are off and running, and then you go, you might find yourself a year or two into it and wondering, like, okay, why are we growing?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is it, you know, why what is it about us that uh isn't resonating with the customer?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times it goes back to really defining those things and really taking the time to really figure that out.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, when I think about what it is, what a brand is and what that means, it usually boils down to those things.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then obviously within each of those, there's plenty of other things you could uh you could figure out and sort of unearth.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but yeah, to me that that's about it.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's probably the best explanation I think I may have ever heard in my entire life about what is a brand, right?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because so many people go to branding, right, as part of the brand, right?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: They they go to the logo and the colors and the this and the that and the brand voice and all the things.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what it is.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's who are you serving?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: What problem are you fixing for them, right?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then building from there.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the fact that you started at the customer because I think so many people forget who their audience is.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was just talking to a client the other day, and we were talking about, I said, well, okay, remind me again who your customer is.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a nonprofit and it was targeting volunteers, right?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, who is the person that's gonna volunteer?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is their concern that's gonna get them to do this?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do they need to know?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Oh, I'm like, not what you need.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: What do they need to know to do this?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's a big struggle for people.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I it's like pot kettle, but it's a struggle for me sometimes, right?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're so close to our brands.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: How do you keep your focus on on the customer?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: It is, it's hard to do.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and the branding part comes later, right?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: So once you've figured out all these things, um, then you could figure out what the branding part looks like.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a matter of removing anything that that doesn't always sort of ladder back up to what that initial sort of definition is of what you're trying to do, right?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say like, try to do fewer things better.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's really easy to do lots of things and try to like be everything to everyone.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's much harder to do fewer things, but at better at at higher quality or with more intention.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's what separates the good ones, the good brands, from the mediocre ones.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really just it's not easy to do.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why uh a lot of folks get it wrong or like have difficulty.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, I think uh it's really just keeping that in mind with everything that you're doing, from what your website says on the homepage to what's on your emails, to what's on your packaging, or uh, or everything, and just really kind of having that persona in the back of everyone's mind when they're creating uh whatever it is they're doing, or you know, social media post all the way to you know a prototype for a new product or something like that.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's it's just important to have that really a good definition of it.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: And at the agency, we we do that, but in the sense of who we're trying to reach within a company or the type of company that we want to work with.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: We have a whole list of 20 things that say, like, okay, if if this this is our perfect client, like this is who we want to work with, and this is the type of person they are, and this is what their background is.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we really took a lot of time to think about that.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, if you haven't done that before, that's it's a really kind of therapeutic exercise because you might learn some things about yourself and also it it will probably help you sleep better at night too, because you'll feel like you're not serving everybody anymore, right?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's I think a really important thing to do.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I think talking about serving everybody, I think this is one of the things that I've seen myself from, you know, being the advertising manager at Jeep all the way down to just working with solopreneurs, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is that everybody needs growth.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And they think that if they don't appeal to everybody, that people aren't going to come to them for this other thing that they do and this other thing that they can do, right?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so what do you say about that when people are are struggling?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I mean, I still remember when we were having discussions on whether or not everything should be trail rated at Jeep to be able to go off-road because we wanted to appeal to more people and grow the brand.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's hard to do.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that you can you can certainly have different subsets of different types of customers, right?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think like think about Jeep, for example, right?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like you definitely have your hardcore off-road enthusiast.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I can relate to this too because I I don't own a Jeep, I have a Tacoma, but I go off-road all the time.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, you have that sort of core customer, right?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: You have that person who is going to use the vehicle for its intended purpose, but then you have someone who they might just want to go to the mall and back and maybe on an occasional fire road or something, right?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or like a dirt road.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you're tapping into sort of the needs and the desires of that potential customer and thinking about putting yourself in their shoes and in their world and trying to really understand from the inside out what it is about the product that's going to resonate with them.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it might not be that the car has 35-inch tires, it might be that it's um that it it just is reliable.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that um again, like trying to really solve a problem with the intention of uh with the product being the the intent, then I think that that's the part that that's sometimes when the light bulb goes off.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that um by again like going through that process and really thinking through the utility of it and what really you're trying to solve for, I think that's that's that will probably answer most of the questions you have about it.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: When I go to think about larger companies, right?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so you work with a lot of larger companies, lifestyle brand, those are very specific on who they're targeting because lifestyle is very unique.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: What are some ways that you help identify or create those personas for those brands?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's such a good question.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: So the ways that we go about it is um we look at data first, we try to understand where the customer is coming from, like what products they're resonating with, where uh what different categories are the brand is selling the most of, or what they're aspiring to sell, sell into more of.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we really try to think about um, you know, looking at what it is that the brand's DNA has in it.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: So again, like going back to those four things that I talked about earlier, that's usually the first place we start when we bring on a new client and we we ask them, like, okay, like who is it?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like who are who is it you're trying to target and who it is, who is the current customer?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And some are more sophisticated than others.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say that um depending on sometimes the resources or the technology.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but yeah, it does all go back to that.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then they might have different categories or different um subcategories of products that are for different people.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, we work with a lot of brands that have men's and women's product, and so a lot of times there's not any crossover at all whatsoever.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: There might be some men buying for the women or vice versa, but um, in most cases, it's a different strategy, it's a different uh messaging, your ads and your emails, everything.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so it really comes down to a lot of just archaeological work, right?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Where we're digging up a lot of everything that they've got and we really want to wrap our hands in.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also a lot of trial and error.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot of testing, it's a lot of uh try this versus that, or let's, you know, send this email to this subset of the list and then this one to the other and see which one works.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't think there's any, there's not really any like clean way to do it.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: It really just comes down to um, again, working with the people at the brand, talking to the product designers, really trying to understand who it is that the founders had in mind when they created that brand or created the product, and then working backwards from there.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that an important piece of that is talking to people.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm a big deal.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: We gotta say that right out loud, because you have to talk to people.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're talking to the designers, you're talking to their potential target audience, right?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have conversations with real people.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think in today's day and age, so many people are shortcutting that with AI, and that's not good.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's not gonna get you the results you want.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the, you know, it's a great point.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I left this out too, and it reminded me of it.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the easiest things a company can do, small, big, it doesn't matter, is just ask your customers what they want.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like survey them, send them a send a customer survey once a quarter, put a survey on the purchase confirmation page on your Shopify site, you know, gather that information from them directly, and you'd be surprised sometimes because what your perception is of what they want, it might differ.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then that could be a real turning point for a company.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of times we'll set that up for some of the client clients we work with because they don't have a formal process around it.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it really can uh bring in a lot of really useful information.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can use AI to like analyze the data, feed it all into there and have it give you back an analysis.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, to your point though, I mean, without actually doing the work and just really, yeah, just have a conversation with a customer, with a product designer, whoever it is, you're gonna be surprised sometimes.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is one of those things that you just can't phone in to the extent that some people do.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I just wanna I love, I love that.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you do that for a client.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: I love, you know, asking the questions, setting up that infrastructure, right?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, it's so important to get that.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because otherwise you're kind of just guessing, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're sort of flying blind, you're guessing, and especially if we're coming on with a brand new client, those first 60, 90 days are so important and we we really want to get it right.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: So we're trying to get our hands on as much information as we possibly can and get some quick wins under our belt.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I think a lot of times, uh yeah, it's just we have, I mean, for us, we have internal surveys that we provide the the company or it's it's various stakeholders, we have the club the customer surveys, we have conversation we're having.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so um so yeah, no, it's it's certainly important.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if if overlooked, then you you're gonna come back to it eventually anyways, but you might have missed out on a lot of potential opportunity.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that is just so well done by you taking that, you know, trying to get those quick wins, right?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I had a penny for every time somebody had told me that they got screwed over for lack of a better term, by an agency, right?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because they they paid a bunch of money and got no results.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's awesome that you set it up for wins right out the gate as best you can, right, with the information you've been given and the the area that you're allowed to move in, because garbage in, garbage out.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think that that's that's really, really amazing that you guys do that and set it up for that.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: I also think that one of the interesting things that you said was what you think is important to people may not be what's important, right?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Be whether it's back on cheap or whether it's um anything else in any other brand.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: You may have designed something or built something or created something.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And like this one little piece is like the key to everything for you.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it might not be for your clients or your customers, like it might just not be that important.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think samples of one, also known as yourself, right, are dangerous.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think people care enough about that.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: A little funny story is I was working with my husband, I was talking to my husband and I was, I can't remember what I was Googling, but I was Googling something and I started, I think I typed in the first, like does, and then I don't know, I didn't even finish the first word.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And what I was searching for was the first thing that shows up in that little fill-in that Google has, um, the autocomplete.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And he goes, Oh, he goes, I don't understand how that works.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, it never comes up for me.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, because you are so unique, you're never searching what regular people are searching for.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's that's really one of the big issues that people have.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're so close to it, you're gonna be searching for and looking for other things that aren't necessarily important to the person whose problem you're trying to solve.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's so true.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, it's it's always wise to start with that, right?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: And like have a really specific problem you're trying to fix or solve for somebody.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's like it's like the unintended feature might be the the thing that really people gravitate towards the most.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And going back to what you said earlier, like as far as when it comes to agencies and um, you know, not taking the extra time, it's the same thing, right?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, and I learned that the hard way, or I guess the not the hard way, but I learned it hands-on because I don't think I mentioned this before, but before starting an agency six years ago, I'd never worked at one.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I have like, you know, it's like been flying the plane while we're building it the whole time.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and so we've done a lot of that of learning hands-on, of over time to really in learning about what it is that is important to maybe one person versus another, right?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And each person has their own uh sort of desired outcomes and needs and design and wants.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so we always kind of uh, you know, we look at what it is that at the end of the day, like if we were to get this person promoted, like that would, you know, that would make a that would be the ultimate sort of uh benchmark of success for us, you know, not so much like the numbers, of course, like we want to achieve their goals, but if we can get this person promoted, it means that we help them achieve their goals personally, and and uh that to them is what matters the most.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: So to your point about the the feature or the thing that like really resonates, it's gonna be different to different people.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think by just trying to understand that as much as you can.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's it's more work, it takes a little bit more effort, but um, it pays dividends, it really does, and it just leads to better outcomes overall.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And yay you, because I started my agency having never worked at an agency, just working with agencies.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: So at Jeep, I managed five agencies all the way down to one when I was um at a at an international like insurance wholesaler, right?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just, I don't know, it just always felt like the money was going into a black hole and the processes weren't there in the smaller business when I left from Jeep to to go to a smaller company.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just my eyes were just wide open, right?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it was there was just so much opportunity to help and to serve and to do things differently than how it had been done with me before by the more traditional agencies, right?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a big learning over my career, was just because I worked with every similar huge agencies down to small little boutique ones and consultants.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I just would figure out over time like what worked, what they did right, what others did wrong, and sort of in between, and took that as and that was became the blueprint for the agency when we first started.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very much about um trying to figure out and from an insider's perspective to say, like, okay, what is it that that mattered to us and what in the times when we were like high-fiving the agency and saying, you know, hey, great job.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what was it about that?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what were those things?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's helped us a lot.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's been part of our success is really thinking about that through a from a client lens, you know, versus just outside and which I think is great, great.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for all of this.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: I love how you started again, brand and yet didn't talk about the logo as one of the four key components, right?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's a lot more than that.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's who you serve and how you serve them and what problem you're fixing.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're not fixing a problem, like should you really be doing this?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so thank you so much for that.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: I do appreciate it.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Before I let you go though, I do have to ask you the question that I ask all of my guests.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that is that this show is called Imperfect Marketing.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Marketing is anything but a perfect science.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: What's been your biggest marketing lesson learned along the way?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think my biggest lesson is just that I don't always have the answers.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not, I'm not right about everything.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and all the experience in the world, sometimes it doesn't mean anything.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: So again, you know, going back to the central theme here, it's just, you know, I've learned very early on that um listening is one of the most important sort of character traits you can have in this industry and within marketing in general.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And um, the loudest person in the room isn't always going to be the most uh the the right one.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I my team knows this about me, and I I'm sure they are over it by now.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: But like most questions I get, I respond with a question.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so so I think that yeah, that's been one of the biggest things that I've learned having worked with some really big personalities and some really accomplished people in my career, uh, was just, you know, just to be be humble and and uh and just always be curious about everything.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love curiosity, is I think truly the secret to success, not just in marketing, but in business overall.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you can be curious, if you can learn, there's just so much that can happen because of that.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that that's your lesson learned.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a unique one that I don't necessarily know if we've ever had before in 300 and I'm trying to think how many, 358 episodes.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, thank you so much again for joining me.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: For those of you listening and watching, if you learned something today, it would really help me out if you would rate and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, have a great rest of your day.