Latest / Divorce Dialogues / You Can Be Right Or You Can Be Married | Rachel Sussman
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- Rachel Sussman (00:00): The most common question I get asked is, when am I going to feel better? When is this going to be over? So the best piece of advice that I give people is recovery is possible, it's probable, but it takes time. And the more you put into it, the more work you put into it like anything else in this world, the better and the quicker you will recover. Katherine Miller (00:25): Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Katherine Miller. This is where we have honest, thoughtful conversations about divorce, the emotional, financial, legal, and family questions no one prepares you for. From deciding whether to separate, to navigating the process with dignity, to rebuilding what comes next, Divorce Dialogues is here to help you find clarity, perspective, and a better way forward. Divorce asks something pretty extraordinary of people. At exactly the time when you may be grieving, angry, frightened, anxious, and simply not feeling like yourself, you're also expected to make some of the biggest decisions of your life. Where are you going to live? What will be your financial plan? How will you parent your children? What is your future going to look like? And the practical process keeps moving even when emotionally you might not be ready to move at all. And I think that's one of the things that we really just don't talk about enough because healing from divorce isn't the same thing as completing a divorce. (01:31): There's the legal process, the financial arrangement, and then there's the emotional process, and they happen alongside each other, but they don't necessarily and almost never do actually move at the same speed. And healing isn't simply about getting over what happened or getting back to the person you were before because you never will. There's the grief to move through and there's understanding to develop. And eventually there's a question of where you're going from here. What are you going to build from here? My guest today, Rachel Sussman, has developed a framework for thinking about exactly that process. Rachel is a licensed psychotherapist, relationship expert, and author of The Breakup Bible: The Smart Woman's Guide to Healing from a Breakup or Divorce. And her work focuses on helping people move through the pain of the relationship ending through three phases, healing, understanding, and transformation. So today, Rachel and I are talking about what each of those phases actually requires, what happens when the emotional timeline of divorce does not match the practical one, and how people begin building a life that simply isn't an attempt to return to who they were before. (02:44): Welcome, Rachel. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Rachel Sussman (02:47): Thanks so much, Katherine. What great work you're doing, what are great topics we're going to be discussing today. Katherine Miller (02:52): You describe recovery from a breakup or divorce in these three phases I just mentioned, healing, understanding, and transformation. Why do you think it's important to think about recovery as a process rather than just trying to move on? Rachel Sussman (03:04): Well, to your point, breakups and divorces are very taxing. They're very hard and they take a huge emotional toll. They take a toll on your identity, your self-esteem. I've seen people really go through tremendous grief, almost similar to losing someone in death. And yet it brings up all sorts of uncomfortable feelings. And I think it's our culture and it's the human way to want to get past, pull up your bootstraps and move on. But it doesn't work that way. It's like losing someone to death. And if we lose someone to death, there is a grief process that people follow. But when you lose someone to a breakup or divorce, there isn't really. And I think the public, the community, friends, family, they expect you to move on, get back to work, get on with it. But it's very, very hard on so many levels. Katherine Miller (03:56): So talk a little bit about that first healing phase. What do actually people need most in that phase? And you mentioned these uncomfortable emotions, right? So a lot of people, myself included, I'm like, "You know what? Let's just see what we can do to rush past these because I don't really want to delve into this too much." Rachel Sussman (04:16): The immediate aftermath is the most difficult time. And it's also a time that brings people into therapy, which is what started my interest in this. There's a percentage of people that have never seen a therapist, but yet they go through a difficult breakup or divorce and someone will say, call a therapist or will know themselves to do that. So I've had a lot of experience over the years of people coming into therapy because of that. And they're in shock. Maybe their marriage and their relationship hadn't been going well for a while, but they consider their partner to be family and family members don't divorce each other. Family members stick together, siblings, parents, no matter what. And I think we tend to think of our partners in that way. And if you don't want your relationship to end and your partner comes to you and they are going to end it, you're going through such a rollercoaster of emotions. (05:13): At first, you're numb, you're in shock, and then the grief comes in waves, deep sadness, despondency, anger, fury, hell hath no fury, like a woman or a man scorned. And then you start settling in away from the disbelief into the reality, and that's in a way even a worse phase. And people come to me, they have all these emotions, they don't know what to do with them, so it's my job to help them process them. To your point, why is it important to process? What if you break your leg and you don't go into a cast and do the rehab? How is that leg going to heal? How are you going to walk normally or walk ever again? Healing from a breakup is just like healing from breaking something in your body. You have to do the work and if you do the work, you will recover. Katherine Miller (06:11): I've never really heard Rachel, anybody else compare a breakup to breaking a limb. And actually, I'm just going to take this analogy a little bit further, if you'll permit me, breaking a limb requires external support, right? It's certainly breaking a leg, you need a cast. Without a cast, without support from the outside, it cannot heal itself from the inside. Rachel Sussman (06:35): You are correct. Katherine Miller (06:36): That idea that somehow we're just going to power it through. You break your pinky, maybe you just tape it to the one next to it and you wait a few weeks and you're okay. But even so, the pinky needs the support of the ring finger in order to get through it and that support wherever it comes from, because it doesn't necessarily have to come from therapy or from a coach, but those people are extremely well suited to do that. I just want to say, my father died about a year ago, and of course the people are extremely sympathetic, empathetic, compassionate about the loss, but it takes a long time. I still think, "I haven't talked to my dad in a while. I should call him." And it's been over a year. Rachel Sussman (07:18): And Katherine, it can feel that way too when you lose someone you love, a husband or a wife or someone who was very dear to you or you thought the relationship was going better or that they valued you as much as you valued them and all of a sudden that ends. I mean, there is research that shows that your body goes through a huge trauma. There's some psychologists and neuropsychologists who had done some work with MRIs and watching people in the healing stages and while you're in the MRI showing some birds and some beautiful music and then showing a picture of your ex and blood pressure went up, the heart rate went up. They have proof of what heartbreak can do for you. But you said something really important about your dad, that you've been getting support. And I think the problem with breakups and divorces is that people don't often get the support that they need. (08:16): And I speak a lot about that in my book, that one of the most important things you need to do, which could be the first thing you need to do is create a support system. And that's why I interviewed hundreds of people for my book because I wanted the women reading my book to heal not just from my advice, but from the advice of the Greek chorus, the advice of the women who had gone through it before them and had recovered. Everyone I interviewed for my book had transformed and recovered. So you need a support system. And in our culture, back to our culture, people are ashamed and embarrassed. It can feel like a scarlet letter when you tell someone you've had a breakup or you're getting divorced or my husband left me or my wife left me. It's very complicated how to share that information with people. Katherine Miller (09:08): Yeah. And in your friend network, can you tell me what you think about this, Rachel? I think people who have concerns about their own marriage or their own relationship really don't want to talk to a friend who's going through a breakup because I think it makes them worry, "Oh my gosh, maybe that's going to happen to me. Maybe my marriage is over. Maybe my spouse is going to leave or maybe I should. These are the things that happen." And so that they're sort of a little avoidance sometimes. Rachel Sussman (09:33): Well, Katherine, look at this book that's out right now. And I'm blanking on the name, but written by Belle Burden and everyone is talking about it. Every single one of my clients is talking about it. And my clientele isn't just people who are divorced because it's scaring people. This could be me. I could think that I have a great relationship and my wife or my girlfriend is going to come home one day and tell me it's over. So I think this is something that people are just very afraid of deep down inside that they think everything's going well and the bottom drops out. Katherine Miller (10:08): Well, the thing is that for the person who's getting divorced, then that's very isolating because now all of a sudden my friends aren't calling me back, but is there something wrong with me? My spouse is rejecting me and now my friends aren't rejecting me too. I don't mean to give a plug for someone like you, but I think it's really helpful to have professional help or support group. Rachel Sussman (10:28): Years ago, a semi-famous author was a friend of a friend who I knew was divorced and my friend connected us and I reached out to her to see if she would let me interview her. And she wrote back to me and she said, "I look at my divorce as the biggest failure that ever happened in my life and I can't be interviewed by you." And I felt so bad because she hadn't done the work to turn it around and change that narrative to my divorce brought me terrible pain. I was devastated that the family that I loved so much fell apart, but I learned so much about who I chose as a partner, who I am as a partner, my friends who came and supported me. So that's the narrative that I want men and women to have. I was at a friend's daughter's wedding over the summer and I was introduced to a lot of his friends and he had said to me, this is a divorced guy and he dates a very good friend of mine and he was like, "See this guy over here? (11:29): He called me every day when I got divorced. He was there for me. He took me out. He made sure I was okay." For a man to say that, Katherine, it just shows that everyone needs a community. I've got a client whose wife told him a few weeks ago she wants a divorce. He hasn't told one person. So I'm texting the guy every day. I know him very well. Please call a friend. If you don't want it to be someone in your immediate social circle, think of a college friend, think of a high school friend, think of the guy you met at sleepaway camp when you were a teenager and you guys send Christmas cards to each other, call him. Everyone needs support and that's the most important thing during that healing phase. And Katherine, that will slow everything down. Katherine Miller (12:18): Yeah. I want to move on to the second phase about understanding, but before we leave this, I want to say that a lot of times my clients say to me, "But Katherine, I don't know anyone who's divorced." And I'm like, "Yes, you do." Rachel Sussman (12:30): Yes, you do. Everybody. Katherine Miller (12:32): Yes, you do. Rachel Sussman (12:33): Or find a support group and find people in your situation so you don't feel like there's anything wrong with you. Katherine Miller (12:41): Exactly. And from there, once you let the cat out of the bag, so to speak, you're going to see that you know a lot of people who are divorced or divorcing or want to be, and they're going to be all around you, but you got to start talking about it first. I don't mean you telling the dry cleaner necessarily, but you're sharing it with a few close friends and moving on. Rachel Sussman (13:01): Or maybe you start with the dry cleaner and you see the dry cleaner gives you so much empathy and you say, "That made me feel better. Now I'm going to tell the shoemaker." Katherine Miller (13:13): Exactly. And Rachel Sussman (13:14): You work your way up to telling a friend. Katherine Miller (13:17): Tell a stranger. Tell the guy sitting next to you on the train or the cashier at the grocery store you don't usually go to. All right, let's talk about understanding. That's the second phase. Rachel Sussman (13:27): Yeah. The most important. Well, they're all important and you're not ready to go to understanding until you've given yourself some time to recover. And a lot of my clients want to jump right into understanding and people who read the book all the time email me, "I have anxious attachment or I have this or I have that." And I'm like, "We just broke up last week." And I'm like, "Take your time and heal, build a support network, make sure you're taking care of yourself, give yourself time to process the emotions." So like we said, it's a process. It should take months. It doesn't take days. It doesn't even take weeks. Katherine Miller (14:01): Well, I think for some people feeling like if they get into understanding that it could help them heal, but you've got to be out of that. And this is my just sort of personal and professional experience talking here, but you've got to be out of that reactive place before you can really start to understand. At least that's what it seems like to me. Rachel Sussman (14:19): Or it's going to make you more reactive, and that's why there's a reason it takes time before you can start talking about it and examining it. You have to have some perspective. And oftentimes the passage of time and a little distance from your ex will allow you to take care of yourself and have that perspective. And when you're feeling a little better, four months in, six months in, you should be feeling a little better or at least be having some better days or some better moments in that day. Then you're ready to take kind of that deep dive, pull the curtain back. And I take people through the passage of time down memory lane. Tell me how you met this person. Tell me about the first couple months you were dating. Were there any red flags? Was there any particular issues or problems you had at first? (15:11): Were there any breakups? We go into the wedding, we go into the birth of children if there were, how things were when they were pregnant after childbirth, people working, work-life balance. And then you start seeing some patterns. Katherine Miller (15:26): Yeah. So how do you do that without getting them into a big blame fest? Rachel Sussman (15:31): You had said something like people tend to blame their ex or they blame themself. You're absolutely right. That's where it starts. I'm very clear explaining to people that both of those paths will not get you where you want to go. Now you have to take some responsibility and you have to look at what your responsibility was and what your ex's responsibility was. Look at that or try to look at it like a graduate student doing a project and you're going to feel feelings. Maybe a lot of the breakup was your fault. You've got to own that. You've got to look at your behavior and you have to own it. And I love the line, "I did the best I can knowing what I knew at that time." If you haven't had therapy, if you came from a divorced family, if there was some emotional abuse in your childhood, if you have anxious attachment, if you have avoided attachment and you haven't done work on yourself, it's going to play out in your relationship. (16:33): And what plays out in your relationship might end that relationship. So what I say is you have an opportunity now to look at all of this, to lay it out, look at those chess pieces, examine them, get healthy, heal and move on. And then your next relationship could be something so terrific. You can't even imagine that you could have that level of friendship intimacy where you could have an argument with someone and they don't give you the cold shoulder for days or you can have an argument with someone and you can go to them and apologize the next day. A lot of the patterns we get ourselves into, Katherine, as you know that can end a marriage. So it's very important in order to heal and move on that you do this work. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up to make the same mistakes over and over and over again. (17:28): And that's often when you see the person with two divorces, three divorces, four divorces. Katherine Miller (17:36): Divorce Dialogues is brought to you by Miller Law Group. We believe divorce isn't just a legal process, it's a human transition. At Miller Law Group, we help people navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and respect, focusing on conversations that lead to better outcomes for families. Learn more at miller-law.com. So you've mentioned avoidant attachment twice now, Rachel, so I think maybe it would be a good idea for the listeners if you talk a little bit about what that is and what it means for someone. Rachel Sussman (18:07): Therapists tend to look at relationships. We talk about attachment. A healthy attachment, a close attachment would be two people who can have an argument and put it aside and go out to dinner with friends or go back to the argument the next day, even tease each other, joke around, and maybe come to a resolution or agree to disagree. That's healthy attachment. Let me first go to anxious attachment, which we see more of. That is a person or two people in a relationship that the other's behavior makes them very anxious. A typical anxious attachment person you're starting to date and oh my God, I haven't heard from him today. I sent my text with a smiley face an hour ago, 10 minutes ago, and they haven't texted back yet. "Oh my God, did I blow it already? Does he not like me anymore? "That's anxious attachment. (19:03): Avoidant attachment, and I think a lot of us have had this experience when we were dating. I know I certainly did. The guy or the girl that comes on so strong, "You're so beautiful, you're so this, you're so that," and the minute they reel you in, they want nothing to do with you. That's avoidant attachment. People who are avoidant fear, intimacy, they have a very hard time in a long-term committed relationship where people can get upset with each other or ask things of each other. They can feel very put upon if they're criticized, even if, "Come on, you didn't take the garbage out. That's your job. I keep having to tell you to take the garbage out." The anxious person will be so afraid that they'll be taking the garbage out five times a day. The avoidant person starts to think, "Oh my God, maybe I shouldn't be in this relationship. (19:58): They're upset with me because I haven't taken the garbage out. I don't need that. I don't need this in my life. I'm leaving." And of course we want whenever possible to be somewhere in the middle so we can have these normal spats that partners have, and I don't want to just keep saying heterosexual, if you’re two wives or two husbands have these normal spats and it doesn't mean the relationship's ending, doesn't mean you're in danger of someone leaving in the middle of the night with a packed suitcase. It's just you want to learn how to have these arguments and then how to finish up with them and have a healthy dialogue about it, which might say something like, "I feel very criticized by you lately. I feel like everything I do, you criticize." And then the partner might say, "Thank you so much for telling me that. (20:46): I don't mean to. I can be a little perfectionistic. I think you're terrific. I'm so sorry you feel criticized by me. Let's work on that." That's a healthy partnership. But in the other partnership, the person who feels very criticized could be either loaded with anxiety all the time or say, "I don't need this. I'm out of here," and literally is throwing the baby out with the bath water because possibly it's a relationship that has legs and could be saved. So you want to examine this stuff when you're in the understanding phase. Who did you marry? Did your partner have narcissist tendencies? Did your partner come from a divorced family or a family where there was a lot of infidelity? Katherine Miller (21:28): I want to stop you right here for a second because we're moving on to another subject and it's related, but I bet you that there are listeners out there right this second going, oh my God, she is describing me or she's describing my relationship. How did she know that we broke up over the garbage or the dishwasher or something that seems so minor? I just don't understand what happened. I just want to pause here and just give people a chance to take that in, that these are patterns of a relationship that I call it a conflict trap where people get into this same conversation where they both feel stuck, but somehow they also both feel unable to get out of it. And if the relationship is healthy underneath, it can actually erode that healthy relationship if people don't get help about communicating what's going on for them, even if they're anxious or even if they're avoidant, that doesn't mean they're doomed to live alone. Rachel Sussman (22:21): Not at all. And in your relationship, during your relationship, if both people are open to getting help, which means taking responsibility for their part in it, it's like the understanding stage, but while you're in your relationship, and that can really turn the whole relationship around and this couple can start dealing with each other very differently. Katherine Miller (22:45): I have a few conflict conversations with my husband where I know I'm right. I know, no, no, I'm right. You would agree I'm right. God agrees I'm right, but I know if I say the thing I want to say to prove to my husband how right I am, that we're both going to walk away from that conversation frustrated and unhappy. So I have a choice in that moment to say the thing that's right or to say something different. Tell me how you see it because I'm not understanding that. It might not work, but I sure know that it's going to be different than the conflict trap. Rachel Sussman (23:13): Well, I say to some of my couples who are in that trap, I say, "You can be right or you can be married, but you can't be both." There's some couples that are very playful and of course I'm going to prove to you that I'm right, but do it in a fun way, make it fun and silly and a game, especially if you're hashing over an argument that just happened or something that happened the day before, you can't be right because everyone has a different perspective. And what you just want to do is listen to the other person's perspective and make him or her feel heard even if you don't agree. And you know what? You can always say, "I see how you felt that way, and I'm so sorry. My words hurt you. I never meant to, and I am so sorry for that." Katherine Miller (24:02): Yeah, that's really good. While we're in this understanding phase and we're talking about that, I think our identity's become fused with our spouse over time, and it's normal. It's natural. Part of my identity is the spouse of my spouse and teasing, and then now I'm part of that person's family. They're part of my family, like extended family. Now we're getting divorced and I have to separate that part of my identity from the other person. I think that takes a long time to really complete that process. What are your thoughts about that? Rachel Sussman (24:38): It really does. When people come to me and they're in the mourning grieving process, that is one of the elements they are surely grieving, that my identity was as so-and-so's wife, is so-and-so's husband, part of this family, possibly it's a big loving family and that person is a single child, possibly it's a prominent family, and you're often losing a lot. I've had people say to me, "I like my in-laws more than my own parents." So it is hard to grapple with that. I just want to validate it that yes, it is part of the healing process, understanding that the person that you were one day, that is going to shift, but it doesn't mean you're not still terrific. It doesn't mean you can't create a new identity, even a better identity when you are in the transformation stage, possibly something you uncovered in your healing and in your understanding is that you were too dependent on your partner or too dependent on your partner's family and that you need to be more self-reliant or maybe you didn't drive and you were reliant on your spouse to drive. (25:54): Well, maybe it's time you learn how to drive. So there are opportunities that come out of the pain and yes, it is a different identity. It's a shift in your identity, but you still are a human being and you still have an identity. You're just going to have to work to create a new one. Katherine Miller (26:12): So what does transformation actually look like, Rachel? Is there a point that you can tell that someone is shifted to that place of really being ready to build a new life? Rachel Sussman (26:22): Slowly and surely, I see people going through their healing. They're taking their time to grieve. They've built their community. They're starting to get back to the gym. They're eating better. They're sleeping better. We go through the understanding or you go through it on your own or with your own therapist or reading my book and you have an understanding of why you picked your partner, why the relationship didn't work out, and what both of your responsibility was. I hear so often, "My husband, my wife cheated on me. They're a cheater, they're a cheater, they're a cheater." Well, you know what? What really was going on there and why? I mean, I think everyone has to take some responsibility. Then you really feel like, "Okay, I'm ready. Let's go date." And I'm like, "Slow down and slow down." You're healing. You're not healed. You're healing. You have some understanding. (27:17): You start the dialogue of what do you want from your new life? Remember, Katherine, you've just told me they've lost their identity, they're the family, they're single, or they might not drive, or they don't have these terrific in-laws. They used to take them all on vacation. So you still have to create a new life for yourself. There's a reason I put dating as the last chapter in my book. It's the last thing that the newly healed that the transformed person does. You don't want to get out there and start dating until you've really created your new identity and regained or gained for the first time self-confidence and figured out you have some free time now on the weekends because your wife takes the kids every other weekend. Maybe you've always wanted to take French classes, maybe you always wanted to learn how to cook or you wanted to join a bike club. (28:10): Do that stuff first. It will go a long way towards building an identity, building confidence, meeting some new friends. Then you go out on a date and the person might say to you, "When did your marriage end?" And it's a year at this point or 18 months. "How did you spend your summer? ""Oh, I joined a bike club and I live in New York City. We go upstate every weekend and we bike ride and I join this all female traveling company and I just came back from Paris with 10 terrific women." That guy goes out on that date and he's like, "Wow, that girl's got game. What a confident woman." And you're so different than you go out on a date and you say to this guy, "Well, when did your marriage end?" Oh, a few weeks ago. Katherine Miller (28:59): Well, that person isn't going to get a second date because I think a lot of people have been on the dating circuit for a while and really, really... Rachel Sussman (29:07): Yeah. So transformation is the end of your relationship is really in the rear view mirror. You're starting to feel more like yourself. You're starting to create and build a new self. You're actually enjoying living alone. You're enjoying the independence. You're seeing there's benefits. If you have children, you're seeing the kids are doing better, they're settled in. Possibly your divorce is over by then and you've gotten over that. As I'm sure you explain to a lot of your own clients, the divorce process is very triggering as well. And that should really be in the rear view mirror as well before your transformation begins. It's hard to begin transformation. It's hard to transform if you're in the middle of a long, contentious divorce. So by the time transformation comes and you're dating again, maybe everything's signed, sealed, and delivered your year, your two years, your three years. (30:03): There's no hurry. The only hurry might be for a young person whose marriage ended quickly and they really want to have children. For that situation, we accelerate everything a little bit. Katherine Miller (30:16): Oftentimes people think of divorce recovery, and I talked about this at the beginning of the show, is getting back to where they were before the marriage ended. What do you think is a more useful way to think about that? Because to me, that seems like you can't go back and be the person you used to be. Rachel Sussman (30:30): Yeah. We don't have a time machine. Nobody goes back in time. And we shouldn't go back in time because doing the understanding stage, you might recognize that you have some real issues that has attracted you to the wrong partners. So if you just go back in time, you're setting yourself up to have all the same patterns all over again. So you don't want to go back in time. Well, you want to start feeling like yourself and people will say, "I'm funny again." Or, "I went to a funny movie and I was hysterically laughing the whole time and a year ago I couldn't have done that." So you will see aspects of your former self that you liked or I'm back at the gym and I'm working out really hard because I used to love that. So that stuff is good. But you want to build a new you and you want to look forward to a new reality, a new identity, a new improved you. Katherine Miller (31:26): Yeah. I think you are building a new you and you can do it intentionally or unintentionally. Rachel Sussman (31:30): Yeah. Well, let's hope for intentionally. Katherine Miller (31:32): I do want to ask you this last question, which is about what one piece of advice that you would give to someone who's in the earliest and most painful stage of the divorce. Right now, what would you want that person, that listener to know? Rachel Sussman (31:45): The most common question I get asked is when am I going to feel better? When is this going to be over? So the best piece of advice that I give people is recovery is possible, it's probable, but it takes time. And the more you put into it, the more work you put into it like anything else in this world, the better and the quicker you will recover. It's a marathon. It's not a sprint. Don't cut corners. Take the time to heal, to process your breakup, why it happened. Take personal accountability, do the work. You will move on and you could move on to the best life you've ever had. Katherine Miller (32:29): Amazing advice. Rachel Sussman, thank you so much for being my guest on Divorce Dialogues. It's really been an interesting conversation. Rachel Sussman (32:35): Thank you so much, Katherine. Great to meet you. Take care. Katherine Miller (32:40): If this conversation was helpful, share it with someone who might need it. And if you're navigating divorce yourself, you'll find more resources and episodes at miller-law.com. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.