Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / “Why Don’t You Just Leave?”: Understanding Abuse & Finding Your Way Out
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you with the most challenging human interactions, those involving high conflict people. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:20): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:21): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute where we focus on training, consulting, coaching programs, educational methods, all kinds of things, all to do with high conflict. Today we are back from our reap hiatus where we've been pretty busy. We weren't napping, although we probably wish we were. When you hear what we've been up to, I think this might be Bill, our seventh season starting today. Not that we've recorded 700 episodes, but I think we're over one or 200 episodes at this point. So pretty exciting. Speaker 2 (00:57): It's amazing. Speaker 1 (00:58): Yeah, it really is. That's a lot of talking that we've done. So today we're going to talk about starting this season off with why it's so hard to lead abusive relationships and whether high conflict people are involved in this and have a role in it. So why don't you leave? Why didn't you leave? It's a common question. It's logical and common sense. So then why is it so hard to leave? We'll talk about that. And this doesn't just cover romantic relationships. This is any type of relationship. So we're glad you're here with us. We'd love it if you give us, you're watching us on YouTube, hit that thumbs up button and leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. We'd love to get that kind of feedback. Bill, let's get caught up. What have you been up to? I know you've been busy. I've been busy. Speaker 2 (02:04): Well, I got in a great vacation a couple of weeks in Portugal, my wife and friends, and we did two opposite things. The first week we hiked on the Camino de Santiago, which is a walk of potentially hundreds of miles. We did 60 miles Speaker 1 (02:27): And how many days Speaker 2 (02:28): In four days, and definitely intense. We're both hikers, but we're not used to doing 60 miles in four days and we were pretty exhausted, but it was wonderful. Walking through Portugal, we walked through towns, through farmland. You could understand how beautiful that could Speaker 1 (02:51): Be. Yes. Speaker 2 (02:52): And the idea was it was a traditional Catholic journey to be kind of a spiritual journey, reflect, think all of that. I didn't do it for religious reasons, but it was a good time to reflect because you're just walking and there's miles ahead of you, and it was good to clear the mind and also to really appreciate the outdoors. I always say that helps deal with high conflict, getting outdoors, hearing the birds, singing, just feeling your feet on the ground, the making progress, all of that. But that was the first week. The second week we did the opposite. We went on a Viking cruise where there's lots of food, lots of drink, hanging out with friends, seeing beautiful views go by vineyards, little towns, churches on the hillside, just all of this stuff. So Portugal's a beautiful country, and it was a great, totally different experience. So it was a good time, refreshing. And now back to helping solve problems, and I missed that a little bit. I didn't have my laptop with me, so I was forced to relax and I did, but I did get thoughts about problem solving. So it's good to be back with problem solving as well and good to be back with you discussing these things and finding solutions for people. Speaker 2 (04:26): So what did you do? I know you were working well, I was on vacation. Speaker 1 (04:31): I'll take him a vacation eventually. But yeah, while you were on the European continent, I flew over to Australia and got to see so many good friends that I've made over the years. I think this was maybe my 19th trip to Australia. And so I got to do some great, great work out in Tamworth, new South Wales with Job Link plus saw two kangaroos on the road on the way, so we don't see that in the States. It's pretty exciting. And then we've flipped to Darwin in the Northern Territory and did some training for the Northern Territory Principles Association. Look, they have some studies about the burnout and the state of wellbeing for school principals and I guess school staff in general. Lots of conflict, lots of just a changing world right now, and it's really hard on people. So I hope we were of some help up there in Darwin and then flew down to Alice Springs where we also trained for the same group, but for that location. Speaker 1 (05:35): And then on down to Melbourne where we spoke for a new client, the Melbourne Archdiocese Catholic Schools, a group, and they were so fun. Every group is wonderful. I have to say that some are just higher energy, and that was just a very high energy group. It was nice. And then over the Australia Financial Complaints Authority, which is, it's been so good to work with them over the years and get to meet some new people. But here's the craziest thing of the trip. We were in Alice Springs, which if you're not familiar with Australia, is right in the middle of the country and there's not much around it for a long, long ways. So we did our training and I thought, well, I'd like to stop by the Family Law Pathways network office because I'd done a lot of training and you too bill for them nationally in the past, but specifically in Alice Springs too, and just thought I'd pop in. And so I was introducing myself to the person at the front desk and turns out she lived at Scottsdale, Arizona where I live, which was the first funny thing. The second thing is I'm trying to explain why I popped in. A couple of gals came out of the office, and I'm sure they're listening to this podcast right now. Speaker 1 (06:54): And one of them, right as I was saying, one, I'm from the High Conflict Institute, she goes, oh, I recognized your voice. I listened to the podcast. That was really fun. And we just see how much too much reach a podcast can have. And so we're grateful for all of you and big shout out to all the Family Love Pathways Network people and everyone else over there. So I added up Bill, the number of miles I flew in 61 days, which was all of April and Nate. So I traveled 38 days and I flew 36,000 miles. Speaker 2 (07:27): My 60 don't sound as impressive now Speaker 1 (07:30): You had to walk yours. I got to sit the whole way. So I think yours is way more impressive, but it was a great sign than I'm home now for a kit and it's going to be home. Speaker 2 (07:41): Excellent. Speaker 1 (07:43): In the meantime, we released something new called New Ways for Couples and Families. This is specifically meant to help couples who are struggling in their relationship and maybe some other things. So Bill, why don't you tell us a little bit more about that since you created it and who it's for and how it can help? Speaker 2 (08:00): After doing new ways for families for separation and divorce, we wanted to have something that taught the same basic skills to people before reaching that point and maybe helping them avoid separation and divorce. So we took the four big skills, flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behavior, and checking yourself, and took a lot of examples for Intacct families. And a lot of it is for couples, but also for parenting. And couples that are doing fine and want to just strengthen their skills can benefit from this. Couples who are shaky and unsure, well, this marriage work can take this and it'll give some skills that may help make a difference. Both parents and the couple could take this together separately or even one person. And so we've already had individuals that say, I'll take this, my husband, my wife is so busy or isn't interested, but I want some skills. And I think the whole family can benefit even from one person learning the skills. So it's for co-parents intact families and parenting the kids. So the kids learn these four big skills for life we call them, and why not? Why not teach them early on and help them in their future relationships? Speaker 1 (09:35): That would be a nice goal to have because as we both know, everywhere we travel, every email we receive or contact or request, it's to do with really challenging behaviors and our relationships. Speaker 2 (09:47): Let me mention it's eight self-directed sessions so that people know what they're committing to. You could spend approximately an hour on each session, so it's an online class, self-directed, your own time, your own location, really trying to keep it simple. Speaker 1 (10:06): So we'll put that link in the show notes. We'll also put a link in the show notes for the conflict influencer.com website, which will launch July 8th. Finally, a place specifically just for individuals of any type of relationship who want to get some support, learn some skills, take some classes, join community, all of that. So we have a signup form so you can get alerted. We'll put that link in the show notes. So Bill, let's get onto today's topic, which is about why it's so hard to lead relationships. You wrote in your book A New World of Adult Bullies about a domestic violence example. Briefly, a summary of it, FK twigs, a British stinger and actress shared her experience of domestic abuse in a high profile relationship with actor Shaya LaBuff. Despite having wealth independence and a strong support network, she became entangled in a deeply controlling and emotionally abusive relationship. Speaker 1 (11:05): The abuse began with intense affection, a tactic known as love bombing, followed by possessive rules, criticism, and isolation. Labour convinced her that ELs were against her and that only he truly cared a manipulative tactic referred to as the bully's story, which creates a false crisis, a villain and a hero dynamic. Though she had the means to leave, twigs explained that the emotional damage, electric feeling too diminished to break free. Her self-worth eroded so deeply that the idea of leaving and rebuilding herself felt impossible With the help of a therapist, she eventually managed to escape the relationship. Her case highlights how even highly capable individuals can fall victim to coercive control and how bullies use emotional manipulation to gain and maintain power. As of early 2024, her lawsuit against Lelo is still pending. So I dunno if it's still pending at this point, but Bill, you wrote about that in your Bill's book last year and then just recently wrote an article titled, why is It So Hard to Leave Abusive Relationships and What Can Be Done to Help? So what inspired you to write this article on course of control and abusive relationships? I know yours, problem solving and thinking about all of this, it Speaker 2 (12:28): Really came out of some consultations where people said, A lot of professionals don't get it. My friends don't get it, family don't get it. Why? I didn't just leave. We find this in the workplace. We find this in abusive relationships. We find this in communities sometimes where people say, why don't you just move, get away from that nasty neighbor Speaker 1 (12:53): And family Speaker 2 (12:54): And family Speaker 1 (12:55): Beyond the romantic relationship within families themselves and elder abuse in any age or stage. Speaker 2 (13:02): And actually speaking of elder abuse is it's really hard for elders to just up and leave abusive relationships, which may be with relatives or caregivers who are out for their money or things like that. But the psychology of it is what I really want to focus on, because often there's financial reasons that someone won't leave a job because they're a year from retirement, they need the pension, they need that. Or in a family where the higher income earner is abusive and whatcha going to do for income if you leave that person. So finances can be a factor, but the psychological factors are harder to see. And this is when people say things like, why didn't you just leave? And the coercive control, as you mentioned, Megan, is a big factor and in many ways a hidden factor. And it's getting talked about a lot more these days, especially in family courts and people concerned about abusive relationships. So the idea with coercive control is that one person really wants to dominate and control the actions of the other person. And this can include not letting them leave the house or in the workplace, not letting them leave to take their child to the doctor. Things like that Speaker 1 (14:33): Withhold in medical care. Speaker 2 (14:35): So medical care, healthcare, some abusers in domestic violence cases don't want the victim survivor to go to healthcare because they'll see the bruises and they'll see what's happening. But it grows and that's the thing that makes it harder and harder and harder rather than easier to leave an abusive relationship from the outside, it looks obvious why someone's beating up on you, holding on the money, not letting you go to the doctor, not letting you see family and friends, all of this kind of behavior. It's like, well, yeah, who would want to live that way? But the thing is, inside that relationship, one of the big things that comes with coercive control is self-doubt and lower and lower self-esteem. And I think that's what FKA twigs was talking about is she became lower and lower and lower with herself and just felt like, I don't have the ability to climb out of this hole. Speaker 2 (15:43): And a lot of what people don't realize is what gets said to people in relationships with coercive control. Things like, no one would want you except me. You're a mess. Just look at you. It's all your fault. You never get it right. You're incompetent. And if you're a parent, they might say You're a terrible parent. Even the children don't like you may not be true, but saying that suggests to the children, they should be saying that too. And if the dominant personality in the family's saying all these negative things about the other parent, it's common that the children start saying it too, because children always go where the power is just for their own survival. So you hear these kinds of things, you're a lousy parent, you're disgusting, your morals are weak, you have a weight problem. When you have a constant barrage of that, it's hard to not absorb some of that and go, well, I can't really leave. Speaker 2 (16:46): I'm a terrible person. So I think that's part of it. But then friends and family, that's one of the things that I also looked at. Friends and family say things, oh, he's such a great guy. Just get over it. Or community, people say, this person's such an upstanding citizen, how could you complain about him? You think of someone like OJ Simpson who had this wonderful public image, but Nicole Brown Simpson called the police several times. He was beating her up and a lot of those calls were recorded. All that stuff came out after he murdered her. But it was hard for people to believe that such a outstanding person. And the reality is it's two separate things. You can be an outstanding community person and in private, this is private behavior and that's why it's so hard to leave too, because no one else can see. Speaker 2 (17:50): So you have community saying that. Then you have cultural values. You have people saying, you're supposed to try, you're supposed to stick it out. You're supposed to. That's what marriage is about. Just keep at it and time and love will heal. All wounds is the old theory and the songs, there's all these, I will follow you wherever you may go. Those kinds of things remind me not to sing on the show, but there's so much, so many cultural messages that say you should stay put and you don't want a job history look like you're jumping job to job. So even if it's a bad thing, you feel like you can't really leave it's psychological power. Speaker 1 (18:38): I kind of wanted to go back to the messaging you were talking about. Your worse than dog bomb at it can get really bad. The things you were saying, they're awful, but it can get even worse. Then we jump into maybe the next level of control, which is allowing you or dictating where you can go and can't go, who you can talk to and who you can't talk to. Would you say that's a next level or just a part of it? Speaker 2 (19:06): I think it's part of it. It grows. And what's interesting, one thing I got into was the principle of reciprocity, which is that relationships kind of reinforce each other and one of the combinations is dominant and submissive. This may be not very significant difference, but it may grow and grow and grow. And so you think of a singer like FK twigs, not a submissive person, but she was in a submissive role in that relationship and became more and more submissive, which reinforced, he became more and more domineering to the point he said, you can't, even in a restaurant, you can't look in the eye of male waiters. And I hadn't heard of that before, but that's an extension of coercive control. So I think in many ways it gets worse for both of them. The person in the domineering position just gets comfortable with power and yet isn't happy. So they figure, I need more power, then I'll be happy only. That's the opposite of what would really make them happy. Equal relationships are the happiest relationships. Speaker 1 (20:27): They just dunno how to get there and they don't know another way. And I suppose it really does feed them when the person becomes more submissive because you may have a very, at least somewhat healthy person, emotional healthy person who gets into a relationship like this with anyone else. They would not be in submissive role, but they end up being in the submissive role with this person. And I think it's hard for people who've never been in an abusive relationship or been exposed to it much for long periods of time, what it does to the brain, to the victim's brain, because it's strange. Why don't you just leave? This is ridiculous. No one would allow themselves to be treated this way. Well, I would because not me personally, but thinking in that role, if I've been subjected to this control, I don't want to look bad. Speaker 1 (21:23): That could be a piece of shame attached to this. I got myself into this and my family will look poorly upon me or my friends, or maybe the world that you're in, a celebrity girl. I mean, I think about the Diddy trials going on right now, and the women in his life are testifying former women in his life are testifying against him, and there's video of him dragging Cassie through the hotel hallway out of an elevator. I thought it was interesting though the mother of his children that he was in that relationship before the relationship with Cassie, who's the main person who's testified against him in the trial. The mother of his kids was treated differently or so what I've read that he treated her with more respect, whereas subsequent relationships, they were extraordinarily controlling and abusive. So what do you think that dynamic is? Speaker 2 (22:24): There's the saying that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And I think public figures like that, that become more powerful may start in a relationship that's more equal, but start believing, I really am special. I really am superior. I really can demand more from the people around me. And I've heard other stories like that where there's a person with an ordinary relationship. This may not be a good comparison, but an example is Ted Bundy, who was a serial killer of women, had a coworker on the helpline in Seattle who he stayed friends with and they just had kind of a friends relationship. She had no clue he was out murdering people. So it's possible you hear about some of these other people that have, they're a serial killer, but they have a stable marriage and they're active in their church and they look good in the community. Speaker 2 (23:28): That's one thing is the hidden aspect of this. The power of secrecy is important. I know in drug and alcohol treatment, we talk about that you're only as sick as your secrets and that secrets often eat away at relationships and individuals. So secrecy is a big part of how abuse can progress and the importance for people to know there's way out. There are ways out. And one thing I wanted to mention is for men that some men are abused, I think maybe 10 to 15% of domestic violence is against the male partner. There's also abuse in gay relationships between women, between men, but men who are abused particularly ashamed and often don't come out. People say, well, that hardly ever happens. Well, you hardly ever hear about it. But I know when I was active as a family lawyer, I had a couple men who were just kind of terrified of their spouses and soon to be ex-spouses in the exact same dynamics as the women I had who were victim survivors of domestic violence. So the shame and that it's for men as well is, Speaker 1 (24:53): And it may not be physical violence, it may be, but it could be other types of abuse and control. I have the power to put you in jail. I have the power to cause you to lose your job. There can be those kind of threats in this course of control in either in any touch of abusive relationship. But I think we hear this a lot when it comes to the dynamic between women abusers and the men. They abuse. So the walking eggshells, Speaker 2 (25:26): Well, it's interesting. One of the cases I had was the woman totally controlled the finances and the man was not allowed to know their financial condition. And he said, I'm sure she's funneling money aside and he's working and putting money into the family, but she's keeping all that secret. And that was one of the big issues is how can he find out where the money went during the marriage because he had no clue. I said, well make photocopies of account statements. And he says, there's accounts that I don't know anything about, and I know that's true, but I don't know where to find them. And he was just fearful of her. She could yell him down out of looking for things once I wanted want to add. That reinforces what you're saying is even when there is physical abuse, it may not be very often that maybe once a year or every other year something happens and there's a violent incident, but the rest of it that could happen. So that's how they keep you under control. Speaker 1 (26:33): I think what's really the common thread here is the victim is either vulnerable to begin with or they become vulnerable over time. And once you get in that situation as a vulnerable person, let's say someone elderly, someone with a disability, someone who has to rely on others or maybe daily care of some sort, some kind of help, I think they're probably the easiest targets for abuse. If they have someone around them that is in that abusive role, it makes it so much easier because they're so dependent on the abuser for all of their needs. I wish that all people who work in child protective Services, in adult protective services, any kind of protective services really had an understanding, and I'm sure many do, but of the what's going on behind the scenes. And I guess that leads us into, before we talk about what to do about this, in the article you mentioned the cluster B personality disorders, and we talk optin on always on this podcast about the five types of high conflict personalities. So if they had this information, perhaps it would be they could investigate a little bit more deeply instead of just listening to that abuser, listening to that bully who's putting out a charm offensive. Right, Speaker 3 (27:58): Right. Speaker 1 (27:59): Everything's fine. No, it's great. Then you have the vulnerable person who's agreeing, yeah, no problem here, because they're so dependent on this abuser for everything. So it's a strange dynamic. So what do you think about that? And then maybe what to do about that if you're in that role of someone who needs to report an abusive situation to a protected services? Speaker 2 (28:27): Yeah. Well, let me first talk about the personalities. People say, well, who would do this? Who would be like this? And it really does seem to be people with traits of cluster B personality disorders, and cluster B is the one that's really associated with domineering, this vindictiveness intrusiveness, according to research cluster B, the four personality disorders in cluster B are narcissistic, antisocial, borderline and histrionic. And you can find more about those with some of our previous shows. But the theme here is that they do tend to dominate and look to dominate the other person in relationships and that it's part of who they are. Personalities developed from genetic tendencies at birth, early childhood, the first five, six years of life and abuse, trauma, abandonment, all of that can spin someone off into becoming someone that feels like they have to control another person just to feel okay. Speaker 2 (29:46): And also the cultural environment. And we have a cultural environment that puts a lot of energy into personality disorder, behavior like violence, abuse, vindictiveness, all of that a lot through our entertainment dramas, et cetera. But also through what we see in the news, we see the worst news. We see someone acted badly in another country and it made tonight's news. It's like bad behavior from the world is in our faces almost every day. And so to some extent, that also gives people permission to act these negative ways or gets them thinking. So that's how you get ahead in today's world. And once it becomes part of someone's personality, then it becomes more and more automatic, and that's who there are people who will dominate other people, et cetera. Now, I want to say in terms of personality disorders, not everybody with a personality disorder does this dominating, vindictive, intrusive behavior, but there's tendencies there. Speaker 2 (31:06): There's also treatment. Some people overcome a personality disorder in some cases, and in terms of domestic violence, people go through group treatment program, like 52 week programs for an hour and a half a week, learn skills and develop more empathy for their victim. That's possible. So there's a whole range here, but the personalities that engage in this behavior are not the average person. We're talking Personality disorders are about 10% of people. We say high conflict people overlap maybe half and half of personality disorders. So high conflict people may be about 10% of people, but the people that are dealing with them are mostly doing it in private and feel isolated, and it's hard to get out. So that's the personalities. Now you were getting into the other question. I'm already forgetting what, oh, Speaker 1 (32:08): That's all right. Yeah. Before we get to that, I was just thinking about the AM amygdala and why people stay. So if you're in a fear mode, you're with an abusive person, and there's probably loud voices, there's probably angry voices, angry face, facial expressions, angry or domineering, body language, body posture. So if the victim then is the amygdala is registering that and just kind of living in that fear mode a lot of the time unconsciously, what do you think? Speaker 2 (32:51): Yeah, I think so. And you get used to subtle facial expressions that tell you, I should be afraid because your amygdala kind of keeps a record of dangerous situations so that you avoid them. Speaker 1 (33:09): I did that through what pat's fascinating. Speaker 2 (33:12): It's kind of like it has those associations. So let's say you meet somebody new and Fred's somebody, but they remind you of Uncle Joe and Uncle Joe was abusive. You might really react to Fred who had nothing to do with that and is a nice guy, but your amygdala says, Hey, watch out. This is familiar. So the amygdala will do whatever to protect you and make you scared of similar situations. But some people apparently have a larger right amygdala, which is ripe brain, some more nonverbal Hughes brain. And so they interpret events as more dangerous than they really are, but that also may protect them. When things really are dangerous, then you can't say you're wrong, but you might say it doesn't fit in this situation. And that's another place therapists discount. People saying I'm being abused is, oh, you're probably overreacting. And in some cases people are overreacting, but in other cases it's really true they're being abused. Speaker 2 (34:29): But yeah, the amygdala can play a part in that. Also, what's interesting about antisocial personalities, I read some research that said they have a hostility bias that they see other people's neutral faces as hostile and other people's fearful faces as neutral. Their response often is to fight rather than avoid. So if they see someone with a neutral face and they know this person's being hostile, I'm going to fight with them, they seeing a fight that isn't there and they could pick on somebody. But if they are starting to pick on somebody and they are fearful, most people, when someone has a fearful face, it stops you in your tracks like what I'm doing. I better stop what I'm doing. But they don't see a fearful face. They just see a neutral face. So they might keep being aggressive. So part of it is the problem people with these personality has that they don't even know about and why in some cases, treatment really helps them overcome that. In other cases, treatment doesn't seem to touch the behavior, and antisocial is a harder personality to treat. Speaker 1 (35:50): Right. Let's go into what to do. So let's say you're the victim. We're going to talk about the victim. We're going to talk about other professionals how to spot this or what to do, how to think about it differently. Let's say someone who maybe is recognizing in themselves that they have some control issues. What do you do? The Speaker 2 (36:12): First most simple and basic thing that someone can do is change their self-talk. That our self-talk, we often absorb from around us. I am really stupid. It really is all my fault. Stuff like that. And to change your self-talk, say, wait a minute, no one deserves to be abused. I can make mistakes and not be abused. No one should be abused. And that that's very empowering because when I talk to people who've been abused, they're kind of like, well, I know I was part of the problem and I shouldn't have done this and shouldn't have done that. And at a technical level, maybe you're right, but the problem is this other person's behavior towards you, that's the real problem. Your part's pretty minor. Nobody deserves to be hit and kicked and thrown around and stuff like that. And people are really, really Speaker 1 (37:09): Personal attacks against, yeah, Speaker 2 (37:11): Yeah. So I think self-talk is a really easy place to start. You don't have to change anything. You have to confront anybody to tell yourself, I'm worthwhile. I should not be treated this way. This is wrong. This is inappropriate. Then I think getting help is one of the biggest things. Just talk to somebody so you're not isolated. I tell people that in workplace situations, just talk to somebody. Don't carry this alone. And workplace has many workplaces have mechanisms to report sexual harassment and other behavior. And if it's your supervisor who's bullying, you don't want a rule that says you have to report it to your supervisor. So a lot of organizations realize that now. So you can report it to human resources or to somebody else, but I say, talk to somebody about it, even if it's just a friend, so that you don't carry this around, isolate it, have it eat away at your stomach and your sleep and all of that. And then if you're the person that's reached out to is say, keep an open mind. This might be true. This may be happening. And what I tell people, evaluating situations, you always have to have three theories. It's true, it's not true, or it's partly true. Maybe both people contributing, but don't assume that it's not abuse. It may be abuse and take that seriously. And so Speaker 1 (38:52): Investigate, Speaker 2 (38:53): Investigate or have an investigator investigate. Speaker 1 (38:57): Right, don't disbelief. Speaker 2 (38:59): Yeah. So with all of this, I think our society needs to really become educated about this. So everyone knows some warning signs. You see someone looking depressed or that they can't have eye contact, that they look fearful for some reason. Are you okay? Do you need help? I forget where I was in my travels, but in the bathroom it said, oh, I think it was about trafficking and saying, are you safe? Are you with someone who you're in danger from? Call this number. Here's something new you don't deserve to be taken advantage of. I've been at conferences where truckers who support just finding out about human trafficking and such, they have organizations to alert people and they're keeping their eyes out for that. And that's really good. That's what you need is the public to look at, are people being abused? Do they need help getting out of their situation? Speaker 1 (40:04): Yeah, I guess the key is not believing everything you hear or everything you see. Ask questions. If someone's isolating or long friendships or you don't know why they've disappeared, maybe inquire. Just take that extra step. But there's a little bit of a question mark. Maybe explore a little bit further. One last question and then we'll wrap it up. If you think that someone you know is in a relationship like this and maybe being abused, neglected by someone who is that dominating, intrusive personality type, and you go to the person and ask if they're okay, what if they say, yeah, I'm fine. I don't need anything. Like how far should you go if you can't convince them that you're seeing this from the outside? Speaker 2 (40:53): I think it's in many ways a situational question. Because if you are really picking up strong signs that the person really is in distress, even though the words coming out of their mouth are, I'm fine. It's like, I'm fine. You may want to push further or have someone look further. A quick example of this, and maybe this is a good one, is the Elizabeth smart situation. She was 14, she was kidnapped from her home the middle of the night and taken to the mountains outside. I forget what city she was in, Utah, and ended up living with this guy who was assaulting her and keeping her isolated for nine months. They would walk in the community in white robes and say, we're very religious, don't talk to us, don't bother us. And they're very covered up. And there was a big search for her, give credit to her parents and family and the police, the local police there. Speaker 2 (42:01): And at one point someone thought, maybe that's Elizabeth Smart. There was the three of them, the guy and his wife, and Elizabeth Smart. And so someone, I think it started with, someone came up to them and said, are you okay? Something like that. Anyway, they alerted the police. So police came up to them, police woman I think it was, came up to them and said, I want to talk to you. And the guy says, oh, leave us alone. We're very pious people. I said, no, no, I'm going to separate her from you and talk to her. And she did. And for I guess 10, 15 minutes, Elizabeth Smart denied that she was Elizabeth Smart. She said she's doing fine and all of that. And then finally said, you're right. So the police had to be really assertive about separating her and interviewing her and talking to her. So I would say, if you're in a situation like that, get the police to help because they have the authority to say, you need to come away with me, and so you can be safe. So we can talk. But I think having authority figures involved who understand is important. And I think just as a culture, realizing there are abusive relationships going on and we need to be supportive and need to keep our eyes open. Speaker 1 (43:34): Yeah, awareness. Awareness. So thank you V. We'll put links to the bullies book. It's called Our New World of Adult Bullies. We'll put links to DB Helplines in there as well. Every country has them, every state, probably every city. So online there's help available is what I'm saying. I'll put a link to our dating radar book we wrote that might be 10 years ago now, bill, I'm not sure. That has a lot of information in there about abusive relationships. A link to the New Ways for couples course and the article that built just recently wrote and the concept influencer.com alert, sign up. Please lead us a review. Thank you for listening. Hit that like button. If you're on YouTube, keep learning and practicing skills. Be kind to yourself, be kind to others while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece. Speaker 3 (44:43): It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.