Latest / Becoming Anchored / Becoming Anchored S1E9: Treating the Nuances of Binge Eating with Jennifer Rollin

Transcript

Becoming Anchored S1E9: Treating the Nuances of Binge Eating with Jennifer Rollin · Becoming Anchored

• 0:00
  Welcome to the Becoming Anchored podcast.
• 0:03
  I am Laura Dineen and we're here with the lovely Jennifer Rollin.
• 0:08
  We're so excited to have Jennifer on the show.
• 0:12
  She is just a wealth of knowledge on all things therapy, particularly
• 0:17
  eating disorder recovery.
• 0:19
  So if you're new to the podcast, um, my colleague and I, Lauren Jackson,
• 0:23
  who's not here on the show today, we had this idea or she had this idea about.
• 0:28
  I think almost a year ago now and it's finally coming to fruition.
• 0:31
  Um, but yeah, we really just wanted to have a space to talk
• 0:34
  about all things mental health and also share our own experiences.
• 0:39
  So it's twofold.
• 0:40
  The purpose of this podcast is really to be vulnerable with y'all and to
• 0:44
  share about our real life experiences.
• 0:46
  And also we get to offer some of our wisdom from the therapy chair.
• 0:52
  So really the purpose of the podcast, we're going to be talking about all
• 0:56
  the hard things, all the joyful things.
• 0:58
  Um, so we're so glad that y'all are here.
• 1:00
  Just a quick caveat, this is not therapy.
• 1:02
  So if you're in the state of Tennessee or if you're in, I know
• 1:05
  that Jennifer's practice has quite a few states that you guys are licensed
• 1:08
  in, so I'll let her share more about that at the end of the episode.
• 1:11
  Um, but if y'all are in a respective state of ours, we
• 1:14
  would love to see you for therapy.
• 1:15
  If not, find someone local And let's get started.
• 1:37
  So yeah, welcome to the show Jennifer.
• 1:40
  Thank you.
• 1:40
  I'm excited to be here talking to you.
• 1:43
  Yeah, so Jennifer and I are friends and colleagues and I just have so much respect
• 1:48
  for her practice and the work that she does in the eating disorder recovery.
• 1:53
  She's she's truly like a beacon of light and I'm so excited just to
• 1:56
  chat with her today and um for y'all to To glean some of her wisdom.
• 2:01
  Um, but yeah, today we're going to be talking about recovery from binge eating.
• 2:06
  Um, and so binge eating can happen across many different eating disorder
• 2:10
  diagnoses or disordered eating.
• 2:13
  Um, so yeah, we're just going to be talking about recovery from binge eating
• 2:16
  and I actually asked Jennifer if she would be open to chatting about this
• 2:20
  just because I think that sometimes Binge eating isn't talked about as
• 2:25
  much in the eating disorder space and so it's something that I'm really
• 2:29
  passionate about shedding light on.
• 2:31
  Um, we all know that reducing shame, right, is is helpful in all mental
• 2:37
  across all mental health diagnoses but especially in eating disorder treatment.
• 2:42
  So that's one of the reasons that I wanted her to just share about
• 2:46
  her experience in treating binge eating and what that looks like.
• 2:52
  Yeah, so, I mean, first off, I totally agree with you that binge
• 2:55
  eating is not talked about enough.
• 2:57
  I believe it wasn't even added to the DSM, which is what we use to diagnose people
• 3:02
  until 2013, which is really wild when you think about it, given how common it is.
• 3:09
  So I'm glad we're talking about it because again, I just think
• 3:12
  that all eating disorders are deserving of attention and care.
• 3:17
  However, unfortunately, it's that like one stereotype of like what
• 3:20
  someone with an eating disorder quote unquote looks like or you know, the
• 3:24
  glamorization of, of certain illnesses.
• 3:28
  Um, yeah.
• 3:29
  And I think sometimes binge eating disorder is not talked about
• 3:32
  enough, but like I said, they should really all be, all be talked about.
• 3:37
  Yeah.
• 3:38
  Gosh, I forgot about that.
• 3:39
  That statistic from 2013.
• 3:41
  I feel like that was just yesterday.
• 3:43
  Yeah.
• 3:44
  Yeah, and we all know that the DSM has plenty of flaws and catching
• 3:48
  up to do in general, but it's just, it's so, um, interesting to me
• 3:53
  and unfortunately not surprising.
• 3:55
  I don't know the date when some of the other eating disorders were added, but
• 3:58
  I believe it was way prior to that.
• 4:01
  Um, and so the fact that it took until 2013 for that even to be recognized
• 4:05
  as a mental illness is, you know, shows a lot of stigma, I think, to me.
• 4:11
  Yeah.
• 4:12
  Yeah, and what I see oftentimes with clients that I'm working
• 4:16
  with are clients of Anchored.
• 4:18
  As a whole is that sometimes clients will come to us and they know that
• 4:22
  they're binge eating or sometimes they report more Feeling out of
• 4:26
  control with food and kind of some of those diagnostic criteria, right?
• 4:30
  Like eating more food than maybe They would like to be eating and feeling a
• 4:35
  sense of shame afterwards and once we kind of tease apart the layers, right?
• 4:39
  Because it's so unique for each client and I share, hey, it sounds
• 4:42
  like you might be binge eating.
• 4:43
  There's like some of them are like, oh my gosh, there's a name
• 4:46
  for that and it's not just me.
• 4:48
  And so that that piece around like normalizing this as a diagnosis
• 4:53
  that is fully treatable I think is really helpful, especially in
• 4:55
  the beginning stages of treatment.
• 4:57
  Yeah, I totally agree.
• 4:59
  And I think we see it with any eating disorder, but with binge eating
• 5:02
  disorder in particular, I see and have seen a lot of like, oh, well,
• 5:06
  there's just something wrong with me.
• 5:07
  Like I lack quote unquote willpower.
• 5:10
  I'm broken.
• 5:11
  Um, and so, yeah, I think being able to say like, look, this is a eating disorder.
• 5:16
  It's not something that's within your control.
• 5:18
  Like it is something you can work on in terms of recovery,
• 5:21
  but it's not your fault.
• 5:23
  I think that can be like really a good first step.
• 5:25
  for people and like realizing, wow, this has a name and it doesn't mean
• 5:30
  that there's something wrong with me.
• 5:31
  Right.
• 5:32
  Or that I lack willpower or, um, you know, any of the other negative things
• 5:36
  that they're telling themselves.
• 5:38
  Yeah.
• 5:39
  Yeah.
• 5:39
  Because then we would probably be out of a job, right.
• 5:42
  If like people were like, quote unquote, had more willpower, so to speak.
• 5:46
  And so correcting that myth.
• 5:48
  is really, I think, important, right?
• 5:49
  That this is not about willpower.
• 5:51
  This is not about a lack of self control.
• 5:54
  You are suffering from an eating disorder, and I think that,
• 5:57
  especially in the beginning of treatment, can be really helpful.
• 6:00
  Right.
• 6:01
  Um, and I think unfortunately for like non, some non eating disorder
• 6:05
  professionals, there is more like misunderstanding to that can fortunately
• 6:10
  kind of perpetuate that idea of like giving very like simple coping strategies
• 6:14
  of like, Oh, just go do this instead.
• 6:16
  You know, again, if it were that easy, like you said, we wouldn't have a job.
• 6:20
  And so I think unfortunately providers also who don't have the training.
• 6:24
  Um, they can unfortunately, like, exacerbate some of the stigma, um,
• 6:29
  and some of that feeling of, like, why can't I just get it together?
• 6:32
  If my therapist is saying I just need to do this coping skill.
• 6:35
  This, like, simple thing of, like, draw a piece of, make a piece of art or,
• 6:39
  you know, do some other coping skill.
• 6:42
  Yeah, yeah.
• 6:43
  So, I'm just curious in your experience, what, where do you
• 6:47
  start in working with binge eating?
• 6:50
  What have you found helpful or unhelpful Um, just in treating binge eating,
• 6:55
  especially if someone is newer to therapy or if they feel maybe their
• 6:59
  hope has been kind of lost around ever experiencing relief from binge eating.
• 7:05
  Yeah, so typically where I start with everyone is doing like an in
• 7:08
  depth intake assessment, really going through, you know, the diagnostic
• 7:12
  criteria, their upbringing, their childhood relationship to food, all
• 7:17
  the way up to their present age.
• 7:19
  Um, you know, I'll do like a 24 hour food recall to see what they've eaten
• 7:23
  the day prior, just to get a sense of like, their patterns around food.
• 7:27
  And so, once somebody, let's say that someone has been diagnosed, so I tell
• 7:32
  them that they have been cheating disorder, that it is something that is
• 7:35
  treatable, um, you know, it's, it's not their fault that they're struggling.
• 7:39
  Um, then we might start to unpack, um, I mean, there's a few different
• 7:44
  directions we can go right.
• 7:45
  We can explore further in terms of like childhood and, um, you know,
• 7:49
  as they're growing up and how that behavior was created and maintained.
• 7:54
  Um, and I also like to kind of start out.
• 7:58
  I guess twofold.
• 8:00
  Um, but really starting with looking at like the main triggers for binge eating.
• 8:06
  And I can talk about what those are, but essentially looking at what is like
• 8:11
  sustaining that behavior at this point.
• 8:13
  And so the three main triggers, there's a little bit, there's a few more than
• 8:17
  this, but the main ones that I, typically start out with are, um, assessing
• 8:22
  the client's level of restriction.
• 8:24
  So that can be physical restriction of, you know, I'm following Noom
• 8:29
  or I am, you know, eating a certain calorie amount or I'm not allowing
• 8:34
  myself to eat certain foods or that can be emotional restriction.
• 8:38
  So I'm eating the brownie, but then I'm telling myself I'm bad
• 8:41
  or wrong for eating the brownie.
• 8:43
  And this might also be a time where I would refer to and collaborate
• 8:47
  with a registered dietitian to look at, you know, their nutritional
• 8:51
  intake and whether they are getting enough for their nutritional needs.
• 8:55
  Um, and then, The second biggest trigger is habituation.
• 8:59
  So it's this idea of like neurons that um, wire together, fire together.
• 9:06
  And um, basically looking at like, kind of this idea that things we do over time
• 9:11
  can become like a groove or a pathway in our brain that becomes habitual.
• 9:15
  So, um, Many people have the experience of driving somewhere, like, to work, and
• 9:20
  they get there, and they didn't, like, pay attention to how they got there.
• 9:23
  It was just an automatic, like, ingrained neural pathway for them.
• 9:27
  And so looking at how much of that binging behavior is habitual, like, are there
• 9:32
  certain times of the day it's happening?
• 9:33
  Is it similar foods?
• 9:35
  Um, you know, is it happening regardless of how you feel because
• 9:39
  it's just a habit at this point.
• 9:41
  Um, and then there's emotional factors.
• 9:43
  So looking at coping with emotions, different emotional triggers, and
• 9:46
  of course that can include trauma because we know that trauma can be a
• 9:50
  big driver for binge eating behaviors.
• 9:54
  Um, and so yeah, I guess I would start with again that in depth evaluation
• 9:58
  and then starting to tease out this client's like very specific triggers.
• 10:03
  But for me, we have to address the restriction, like the physical and
• 10:09
  emotional restriction first, because otherwise we're like helping a client
• 10:13
  try to fight their biology, right?
• 10:15
  Like if we're not getting enough food, our body is biologically primed to
• 10:20
  want to eat as much as possible when we encounter food in times of famine.
• 10:24
  So, So yeah, I always start there and like I said often my team collaborates
• 10:29
  with registered dieticians who are eating disorder informed, um, to help
• 10:33
  with that process and then starting to tease out those like habitual and
• 10:37
  emotional factors, um, and possible like that added component of trauma
• 10:42
  therapy sometimes can come in there too.
• 10:45
  Um, you know, again, depending on where they're at in their
• 10:49
  stability with their recovery.
• 10:51
  Yeah, yeah, this is all just such, I think, rich and important information.
• 10:56
  Yeah, I find that clients A lot of times when they come to me, um, are
• 11:01
  under reporting their restriction and over reporting their binging.
• 11:05
  And so what I mean by that for listeners that are listening to the show today,
• 11:09
  binging is highly distressing, right?
• 11:11
  Because it's, it's oftentimes described as like an out of body experience.
• 11:16
  Um.
• 11:17
  And that can be just incredibly distressing of like, I don't have
• 11:20
  control for lack of a better word.
• 11:22
  I have that in air quotes over my choices.
• 11:24
  Right.
• 11:24
  But then maybe they're not eating until 4 p.
• 11:27
  m.
• 11:27
  and In the day.
• 11:29
  And so, yeah, I would totally agree.
• 11:30
  And I would start there as well of like, okay, well, we need to help get you on a
• 11:35
  on a pattern of eating breakfast, lunch and snacks if you're binging at night.
• 11:39
  And I understand that that's really distressing.
• 11:41
  And I don't want to invalidate that.
• 11:43
  But it's kind of that underreporting of distress around the restriction and
• 11:46
  over not overreporting, but There's a lot of distress around the binge
• 11:50
  eating, but that can be kind of that corrective piece to do earlier on in
• 11:54
  treatment that I find so helpful as well.
• 11:57
  Yeah, I mean, I see that a lot too.
• 12:00
  And I know a lot.
• 12:01
  I don't know if I ever did, but I don't ask people like, are you restricting?
• 12:05
  Because most of the time for what I see, people do not think They're restricting.
• 12:09
  And in fact, like you said, they don't see that as the problem that
• 12:13
  feels more sometimes more egosyntonic for people and the binging, like you
• 12:17
  said, feels so incredibly distressing.
• 12:20
  Um, of course, restriction can feel horrible, too.
• 12:23
  But I guess what I'm saying is often, like you said, people are like,
• 12:26
  please take this binging away from me.
• 12:29
  Um, but like with the restricted piece, often there's not even an
• 12:32
  aware, either not an awareness that they're doing it or it can be.
• 12:36
  I guess for some folks harder to want to challenge that piece.
• 12:39
  Not for everyone.
• 12:40
  Sure.
• 12:41
  I completely agree.
• 12:42
  I completely agree.
• 12:44
  Yeah.
• 12:44
  And I think that's, that's really a great kind of piece of
• 12:48
  information for anyone listening.
• 12:51
  That's an incorrect kind of diagnostic criteria in the DSM that, you know,
• 12:56
  it's missing that, like, especially for binge eating disorder, right?
• 12:59
  There's no, like, restrictive food.
• 13:02
  But I have not worked with a client that is not restricting in some way,
• 13:06
  shape or form, whether it's food or emotional, like you've talked about.
• 13:11
  And so I think, especially for therapists, that's really important
• 13:13
  to understand and to know.
• 13:15
  And also for clients of validation of like, hey, we all have needs, whether
• 13:20
  those are physical or emotional.
• 13:22
  And we really need to work on getting those needs met so that you can
• 13:25
  recover from your binge eating, right?
• 13:28
  Yeah, and it is, again, back to the DSM, but it's wild that there's no
• 13:32
  restriction component because any, any solid eating disorder therapist
• 13:36
  is aware that that is, you know.
• 13:38
  It's almost always going to be there.
• 13:39
  And if it's not there at present, it could also, I've found, um, sometimes be
• 13:44
  just like that history of restriction.
• 13:46
  That maybe the person is no longer restricting, but they
• 13:49
  had a long history of it.
• 13:50
  That can sometimes impact things too.
• 13:53
  Yeah, yeah.
• 13:55
  So circling back to what we mentioned in the beginning just around some of those
• 13:59
  myths, like the clients that are people that we see in our offices that come
• 14:03
  in and they're like, you know, I don't have enough willpower or self control.
• 14:06
  I'm curious, just in your clinical experience, what other
• 14:10
  myths have you found that maybe we can debunk together today?
• 14:16
  Yeah, I mean, so many, um, the willpower and Quote unquote
• 14:19
  self control is a big one.
• 14:21
  Um, I also think there's a big myth, like I mentioned before, of like what someone
• 14:26
  with an eating disorder looks like.
• 14:28
  And so this idea that if you don't look a certain way or fit into this box of
• 14:32
  the stereotypical person with an eating disorder, that somehow you must not be
• 14:37
  struggling, I think is another myth.
• 14:40
  Um, that's a big one that, you know, I've tried to, you know, You know,
• 14:45
  speak out against publicly over time because I think it's so damaging.
• 14:49
  It really prevents people from seeking help.
• 14:52
  Um, but yeah, the biggest one I tend to see with binge eating is really
• 14:55
  comes down to that, like willpower.
• 14:57
  Um, you know, thinking that there's something wrong with them and maybe
• 15:02
  like that internalization of the shame.
• 15:04
  Um, because often with binge eating, there's a lot of shame.
• 15:08
  And so, yeah, many people have internalized that.
• 15:12
  and think, well, you know, I just need to find, you know, some quick fix that
• 15:18
  will help me with this problem and not realizing that there's all these like
• 15:21
  under psychological underpinnings.
• 15:24
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:26
  Yeah.
• 15:26
  Or history like you talked about history of trauma and or PTSD or a mood disorder
• 15:32
  that maybe has been underlying that, you know, all these kind of co occurring
• 15:36
  pieces that oftentimes may get missed.
• 15:40
  Um, with someone who's been cheating and I think to what can happen even
• 15:45
  in the medical system is, is people, doctors, physicians, nurse practitioners,
• 15:50
  you know, pay attention if there's someone that maybe has severe anorexia.
• 15:55
  And I think sometimes it's almost like, and if you're listening
• 15:59
  and that is your presentation, we see that and we honor that.
• 16:03
  That is just as much deserving of care.
• 16:05
  But I do think there's a piece where maybe binge eating is overlooked or
• 16:09
  maybe providers don't know what questions to ask um, they'll immediately jump to
• 16:15
  Hey take this medication or You need to be following this kind of fad diet or
• 16:21
  this program versus asking appropriate assessment questions to really understand
• 16:25
  whether this has been cheating or not.
• 16:28
  Right.
• 16:28
  And like you said, I think that's a big part of the problem is people are
• 16:31
  putting, I wouldn't even call them band aids because they're not actually helping.
• 16:36
  I think a band aid insinuates that there's some level of help.
• 16:39
  Um, but I think.
• 16:41
  people who are not trained in eating disorders.
• 16:43
  Yeah, this, the typical approach would be, okay, here's like an appetite suppressant
• 16:47
  medication, or like, here's a diet.
• 16:49
  And so you're literally prescribing what I just said is the number one
• 16:52
  trigger of binge eating disorder is this restrictive element.
• 16:56
  And then of course people feel like they're broken or there's something
• 16:59
  wrong with them when they're like, my physician or nutritionist or
• 17:02
  whatever gave me this diet or this medication and I'm still binging.
• 17:08
  And so they then, make sense of it by thinking, well, the problem
• 17:12
  is me instead of the problem is.
• 17:14
  our society that's like rife with diet culture and weight stigma that
• 17:18
  is reinforcing the problem because I think people who don't have training
• 17:24
  in binge eating disorder do not realize like the way that they want to approach
• 17:30
  it is in fact the opposite of how you should approach helping someone with
• 17:33
  binge eating if that makes sense.
• 17:35
  Absolutely and I know that you've treated many clients.
• 17:38
  with binge eating.
• 17:39
  And again, just to kind of shed light on this, right?
• 17:42
  Like someone can be binge eating and not necessarily meet criteria
• 17:44
  for binge eating disorder.
• 17:46
  They might have bulimia nervosa or they might have anorexia
• 17:49
  nervosa binge per subtype, right?
• 17:51
  So there's lots of different diagnosis.
• 17:53
  I know that we've referenced binge eating disorder today, but where
• 17:56
  binge eating can be happening.
• 17:58
  Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm just curious from your perspective, what do you think
• 18:04
  maybe are So we've talked about some of the myths, and I completely agree with
• 18:08
  you, but what would you say to maybe a client who feels hopeless to their binge
• 18:14
  eating, both as a human being today on the show and as a therapist, what do you find?
• 18:20
  are most helpful things to offer some hope to them.
• 18:25
  Yeah.
• 18:25
  I mean, I think if someone was feeling hopeless, I would probably
• 18:29
  say something like, you know, it's, it's understandable you feel this way.
• 18:32
  Like living with this can feel really exhausting.
• 18:35
  And like I've seen and worked with people who are able to get better.
• 18:38
  Like it is something that is treatable.
• 18:42
  Um, you know, it may take time.
• 18:43
  It may take continuing to work on your goals every week, and it takes effort.
• 18:49
  Um, but in the end that effort is something that most people I
• 18:53
  talked to feel was worth it, right?
• 18:55
  And so acknowledging that recovery can be hard and worth it at the same time
• 19:00
  And living with an eating disorder is also really hard, but there isn't
• 19:03
  that that payoff So yeah, I think just sharing that others, you know have
• 19:07
  struggled and don't struggle with it anymore But also validating like when
• 19:12
  you're in that horrible place That you're in Um, you know, which I can remember
• 19:16
  how I felt in my own eating disorder.
• 19:18
  It, it can feel hopeless and it can feel terrible and you're not
• 19:22
  alone in, in feeling that way.
• 19:24
  Um, but sometimes our minds do not always tell us the truth and
• 19:28
  the reality of what can happen and the growth that we can achieve.
• 19:32
  Sure, sure.
• 19:33
  Yeah, and we see clients in our practice that maybe have been binging
• 19:36
  for a month and clients that have binging, been binging for 20 years.
• 19:40
  And so, they're both deserving of treatment and I understand that the
• 19:46
  client that's been doing it for 20 years, it can, it can feel like, oh my
• 19:49
  gosh, is this ever going to get better?
• 19:51
  And I know speaking to that and offering hope in that in that
• 19:56
  place can just be a tricky dynamic.
• 19:58
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:00
  But I think also, um, kind of what you were alluding to, just this idea of,
• 20:06
  I think, Many folks who have eating disorders, not everyone, but can tend
• 20:11
  towards more like all or nothing thinking and like black and white thinking of
• 20:14
  this idea of like, you know, I'm never gonna get better and it's too hard and
• 20:19
  again Those thoughts are understandable But saying something like, you know,
• 20:24
  you've been struggling for 20 years.
• 20:26
  So it makes sense that it's gonna take time This is not something that's going to
• 20:29
  go away overnight You know, and can work on setting some small goals and hopefully
• 20:35
  build their confidence as they're able to reach these like small goals and feel
• 20:40
  more empowered over the eating disorder.
• 20:42
  Um, you know, and I think the other thing that I was just thinking about
• 20:47
  with that is I think I've also said to clients before, it's kind of like if
• 20:51
  someone had a fear of driving and then.
• 20:53
  They're looking at like the highway highway and they're like, I'm
• 20:56
  never going to be able to do that.
• 20:57
  I'm just horrified to even like get in my car and it's like, okay, well, let's
• 21:01
  start on like the local neighborhood roads then, you know, and like let's
• 21:05
  try not to look at the highway.
• 21:06
  Like that, of course that feels terrifying because you're not there right now.
• 21:10
  Sure.
• 21:11
  Sure.
• 21:11
  And that's where we're going is to hopefully do some of
• 21:15
  that exposure work to AKA.
• 21:17
  To help you fully recover from binge eating and or your eating disorder
• 21:21
  diagnosis, that's where we're going and like you talked about, we
• 21:24
  have to celebrate the small wins.
• 21:27
  And I'm the first to say, you guys can, my, if my husband were on the podcast, he
• 21:31
  would, he would, I'm going to text him and tell him that I talked about this today,
• 21:35
  but I'm the first to say that I have trouble acknowledging small wins as well.
• 21:39
  So, and I'm also, like Jennifer, fully recovered from an eating disorder and I
• 21:44
  don't have an eating disorder anymore, but this is something that I kind of
• 21:47
  continually come back to in my own therapy, in my own life of like, really
• 21:52
  challenging my brain to celebrate the positives or even the neutrals, right?
• 21:58
  And so kind of similar to someone that's in an eating disorder, it's
• 22:01
  really challenging us to celebrate the wins of, hey, I had an urge to binge
• 22:06
  and I shared that with my spouse, or I shared that with my partner.
• 22:09
  And maybe I still binged, but that small win of letting someone
• 22:13
  else in on my struggles can be just so impactful and important.
• 22:17
  But.
• 22:18
  I think those of us with an eating disorder type of history
• 22:21
  or presently struggle, our brains tend to, like Jennifer's talking
• 22:25
  about, do this all or nothing, highlighting more of the negative.
• 22:29
  So if that's you, we just, we see you in that.
• 22:32
  Yeah.
• 22:33
  Yeah.
• 22:33
  And you're definitely not alone in that.
• 22:35
  I feel like even outside of folks with eating disorder histories, I feel like
• 22:39
  that's such a common thing in our culture.
• 22:41
  Like to, you know, especially again, if we're a little more perfectionistic
• 22:45
  or, you know, have some of those traits, that can be even harder.
• 22:48
  But I think our culture as a whole, there's not as much.
• 22:51
  thought put into the small wins of life.
• 22:54
  Like just thinking about like what is celebrated, you know, it's like we
• 22:57
  have like a big thing when someone gets married, you have a wedding and like
• 23:00
  engagement parties and stuff, but like we're not, most people are not having like
• 23:06
  a party if, you know, they cross something like off a small goal or something.
• 23:10
  Sure.
• 23:11
  So I think our culture is not set up to celebrate these like small wins and
• 23:15
  it's like this constant striving ideal.
• 23:18
  Um, So yeah, like I think a lot of people struggle with that, um, but I
• 23:24
  also think that's so important as a therapist and that's something I always
• 23:27
  try to do is like cheerlead my clients on, like, To celebrate their wins for
• 23:33
  them, like even if they're not able to see like, Oh my gosh, like you did
• 23:36
  that this week, like that is amazing.
• 23:37
  And that's awesome that you met that goal.
• 23:40
  Um, I think that like means a lot to clients too.
• 23:44
  Absolutely.
• 23:45
  Yeah, because it's, yeah, it's hopeful.
• 23:48
  Right.
• 23:48
  And that we all need hope in our lives.
• 23:51
  Right.
• 23:51
  And that's one of the reasons we started this podcast, but it's hopeful.
• 23:55
  It's, Oh, wow.
• 23:56
  Like somebody else sees growth in me, even when I might be struggling
• 24:00
  myself to acknowledge growth.
• 24:02
  And so, like I talked about that, that specific example of, okay, maybe I still
• 24:07
  binge, but I let someone else see it.
• 24:08
  And on that struggle, that would be maybe an example of
• 24:11
  highlighting growth in a client.
• 24:13
  Or, you know, if you're binging X number of times in a month, and
• 24:18
  you maybe reduce that by one or two binges per month, that's still growth.
• 24:21
  But we can do this, like, I want to recover from my eating disorder today.
• 24:26
  And just remembering the small steps matter and they,
• 24:29
  they add up right over time.
• 24:33
  Yeah.
• 24:34
  Yeah.
• 24:34
  And again, I, I think that wanting to do it today, which is understandable because
• 24:38
  eating disorders suck and are exhausting.
• 24:40
  But that is like what I talked about the thinking about the highway when you're
• 24:43
  not even comfortable getting in the car where it's like, well, that's too scary.
• 24:46
  So I'm just going to give up on trying any of this.
• 24:49
  Right.
• 24:50
  Um, so I think it's really important to like look at the small steps and even the
• 24:55
  win of just like showing up to therapy week after week and like committing
• 24:58
  that time to working on yourself.
• 25:00
  I mean so many past generations didn't go to therapy and so that
• 25:04
  that is big just that alone.
• 25:07
  Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.
• 25:09
  And we really encourage in our practice, and I know that you do this too, but
• 25:13
  we really talk about doing something every day for your recovery, right?
• 25:16
  Whether that's looking through a behavior chain analysis, or sharing with
• 25:21
  a loved one, or whatever it might be, like whatever skill that, Really we're
• 25:25
  targeting that week or maybe reaching out to a registered dietitian But that can be
• 25:29
  really impactful too and it doesn't have to be this huge goal of full recovery
• 25:33
  from my eating disorder Which again that might be the end goal, but it can be small
• 25:38
  steps towards towards that end goal Which I think matters and that's important too.
• 25:43
  Yeah, absolutely Yeah.
• 25:46
  Anything else that maybe you've found to be helpful with clients
• 25:50
  suffering with binge eating?
• 25:51
  Any last words as we close?
• 25:54
  Yeah.
• 25:54
  I mean, I think there's so much as you and I could talk about this
• 25:57
  all day, but I think just another thing that popped into my head is
• 26:02
  starting to look at what are the needs that the person is trying to meet.
• 26:07
  Um, through the binge eating behavior and you can specifically
• 26:11
  look at like emotions.
• 26:13
  It could be other needs.
• 26:14
  It could be I have a need for comfort or I'm feeling lonely
• 26:18
  and I want to feel less alone.
• 26:20
  And then if some of those needs are healthy needs, right?
• 26:22
  Like wanting to feel comforted, um, trying to work on more values aligned ways that
• 26:28
  you could try to get those same needs met.
• 26:31
  Um, because I don't think it's fair to say, okay, we're going to work on letting
• 26:35
  go of this behavior, but then we're not going to have anything like that
• 26:39
  behavior developed for a reason, right?
• 26:41
  And so I also try to tell clients that like, Binge eating is a, ultimately it's
• 26:47
  a resilient response to trauma, to pain, to feeling lonely, to intense emotions,
• 26:53
  to experiences of oppression, and it might not be serving you anymore, right?
• 26:57
  Both things can be true.
• 26:59
  And so just validating that it is valid to want to have your needs met
• 27:03
  and to deserve to have your needs met.
• 27:06
  Um, And can we look at are there other ways that get you more in the direction
• 27:11
  of the life that you want that you could gradually start meeting your
• 27:15
  needs so that we're not just working on letting go of this behavior and
• 27:19
  not having anything in your life.
• 27:21
  Like we also have to build up your life at the same time.
• 27:24
  Yeah, I love that.
• 27:25
  I love that.
• 27:26
  I talk to my team a lot about like, as the eating disorder kind
• 27:30
  of shrinks metaphorically, right, your life is able to expand.
• 27:33
  And I know that you've done posts and blogs on that in your own words as well.
• 27:38
  But I love that.
• 27:40
  Yeah, you mentioned comfort.
• 27:41
  That's actually a need that I talk to clients a lot about that's underneath
• 27:46
  the binge eating, which that need is so valid, like wanting to be comforted.
• 27:50
  I want to be comforted.
• 27:51
  Yeah.
• 27:51
  Really on a daily basis by people that love me and know me and that's
• 27:55
  a fair thing But I'm in a place where I can recognize Okay, I have
• 28:01
  this need and then how do I get that need met in a healthy way?
• 28:04
  And it's not, you know, always healthy.
• 28:05
  Maybe I'm scrolling too much on social media, etc, etc But I know I have internal
• 28:10
  awareness and external awareness around how to deal with that Get this need met.
• 28:13
  So I love that work that you've talked about that you do with clients
• 28:17
  just around what are my needs and then how do I reach for those needs
• 28:20
  in a healthy values aligned way.
• 28:23
  Right.
• 28:24
  Cause it's looking at like the eating disorder is serving a
• 28:26
  function in your life, right?
• 28:28
  And so we want to look at if there are, like I said, healthy
• 28:32
  functions, like, yeah, other ways and trying to build up their life.
• 28:36
  Because, um, one of the reasons aside from the fact that.
• 28:40
  Everyone deserves to have like a joyful, you know, life is also this
• 28:45
  idea that if we work on letting go of the binging, but we don't look at the
• 28:50
  rest of your life or like the function that it's having in your life, um,
• 28:55
  that's when people can quickly have, you know, other things crop up, right?
• 28:59
  They might start to struggle with alcoholism.
• 29:01
  Um, they just turn to another coping, coping mechanism, right?
• 29:05
  And to be clear, like none of this is a choice.
• 29:08
  Nobody's like, I'm going to choose to have a problem with alcohol, right?
• 29:11
  It's her.
• 29:12
  Um, Typically there are genetic and environmental factors that
• 29:15
  play into it, but I'm just saying that like we have to actually meet
• 29:19
  the needs that are not being met.
• 29:21
  To make sure that other problems, like we're not just like putting
• 29:24
  a band aid on the situation.
• 29:27
  Absolutely.
• 29:28
  Yeah.
• 29:29
  Yeah.
• 29:29
  Yeah.
• 29:30
  And just for those of you listening, there's all sorts of needs like
• 29:32
  Jennifer referenced, but I mean, comfort, connection, safety, love,
• 29:39
  belonging, the need to be heard, need to be validated, need for security.
• 29:44
  So there's like all sorts of needs that We all have as humans and the need
• 29:50
  in and of itself is not problematic.
• 29:53
  What can be problematic is how we go about meeting our needs, right?
• 29:57
  So if I have a need for connection and An example maybe is like, instead
• 30:01
  of me telling my husband that at the end of a long hard day, I'd lash out.
• 30:04
  And that, that's an unhealthy way that I'm trying to get that need met, but
• 30:08
  it's like a roundabout way and it doesn't really work well for me, um, because
• 30:12
  then there's her in the relationship.
• 30:13
  So that's what Jennifer's talking about, for those of you listening,
• 30:17
  that function of the eating disorder.
• 30:19
  It's still resilient, like she said, and it's, it's not going
• 30:23
  to work in the long run for you.
• 30:26
  Yeah, and in the long run, like we were talking about, it can shrink your
• 30:28
  whole world and make all the things you care about, um, start to get
• 30:33
  smaller and smaller as it takes up more and more of your, your brain space.
• 30:37
  Um, so the cool thing about recovery is like getting some of that brain
• 30:40
  space back to be able to build relationships and like do other things
• 30:44
  with your life because you're not spending so much time and energy, you
• 30:48
  know, trapped in this mental illness.
• 30:53
  Okay, so an affirmation for those of you listening today is I am capable
• 30:58
  of making recovery oriented choices that align with my value system.
• 31:04
  I love that, um, and if somebody here is looking for homework, I would
• 31:09
  encourage you to look at some of the triggers for your binge eating behavior
• 31:15
  that might be showing up in your life.
• 31:17
  Thank you.
• 31:18
  So I might have you think about a recent episode of binge eating
• 31:21
  and kind of note what were the factors that made me vulnerable.
• 31:24
  Maybe I was tired.
• 31:25
  Maybe I was hungry.
• 31:26
  Maybe I skipped lunch.
• 31:27
  Um, so writing all of that down and then writing down any emotional needs that you
• 31:33
  were wanting to fulfill in that moment.
• 31:36
  Maybe I felt lonely.
• 31:37
  Maybe I felt sad.
• 31:38
  Maybe I felt bored.
• 31:40
  Um, and yeah, so really just try to unpack.
• 31:43
  Kind of your individual triggers for your most recent episode of
• 31:47
  binge eating and also just send yourself a lot of compassion.
• 31:51
  I didn't talk about that, but that's a big piece of binge eating recovery.
• 31:55
  If you did binge recently, send yourself compassion.
• 31:58
  It's not your fault, and you're listening to this podcast to work on it.
• 32:03
  You are a wealth of knowledge and I could talk to you all day about
• 32:09
  all the things therapy related.
• 32:11
  And so thank you just for sharing your wisdom.
• 32:14
  I would love to have you back on the show.
• 32:15
  Maybe we can do an episode with Lauren down the road.
• 32:18
  Um, but yeah, I would love for anyone listening, how can people
• 32:22
  learn about your offerings?
• 32:24
  I know you and Colleen recently read a book.
• 32:27
  So tell us about that as well.
• 32:30
  Yeah, so we have a book called The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery.
• 32:34
  It's on Amazon and Barnes and Nobles.
• 32:37
  Um, and in terms of finding out about my practice, um, I run a group practice
• 32:42
  called the Eating Disorder Center and we provide, um, primarily work with
• 32:46
  folks in the DMV area, but we also have therapists in a few other states.
• 32:52
  It's all on our website, um, including Florida.
• 32:56
  And we provide eating disorder recovery coaching with our coaches worldwide
• 33:00
  as like a supplement to therapy.
• 33:03
  Um, so yeah, you can find out about all of that on www.
• 33:09
  theeatingdisordercenter.
• 33:11
  com.
• 33:13
  Awesome.
• 33:14
  Thank you so much.
• 33:15
  And it was just an honor just to chat with you today.
• 33:18
  And if any of you have listened and are struggling with binge
• 33:22
  eating, we see you, we're with you.
• 33:24
  And like Jennifer said, we are cheerleading you on.
• 33:27
  Um, so thanks Jennifer for being here.
• 33:30
  Thank you.