Latest / Technically Sound Strategy / Episode 39 - Tim McKey on Operational Excellence in Law Firms

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Episode 39 - Tim McKey on Operational Excellence in Law Firms · Technically Sound Strategy

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Welcome to Legal Marketing Radio, a production of LaFleur Marketing.
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Last week I chatted with Tim Mckey, co-founder of Vista Consulting, about
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operational excellence in law firms.
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Tim is a seasoned CPA and business consultant with decades
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of experience across local, regional, and national firms.
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But it was through his consulting practice that Tim found his true passion
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helping business owners to find success and build strategies to achieve it.
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As the managing partner of the Mckey Business Group and a key leader at Vista,
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Tim specializes in strategic planning, financial analysis , and guiding business
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owners towards both professional growth and personal fulfillment, known for his
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blinding flashes of the obvious, or BFO's.
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Tim has a knack for simplifying complex business challenges and
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inspiring new ways of thinking.
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Get ready for an insightful conversation about strategy, success, and maybe
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even a little fun along the way.
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All right, Tim, it's great to have you here with us today.
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As we talked previously I've been a big fan of what Vista Consulting
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has done through the years.
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Going all the way back to, I think 2000, I don't know, around 2015,
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16, 17, right around there was one of the first conferences I went to.
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It was you and there were a few other speakers there and, that kind of turned
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me on to the operational direction, the tracking and the premise of
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running a firm as a business it was really eyeopening conference to me.
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I benefited from it a lot.
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I've built kind of some of the language that we talk about on the marketing side.
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From what we learned there.
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And one of the things that we covered that I think that you still maintain is
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the four ways of growing a firm, right?
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And, working with the lawyers that we worked with through the years, there
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were some outstanding lawyers, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they
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start out knowing how to run a business.
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So I guess if you don't mind, give me a little background on you, where you
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came up with these concepts and then.
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Let's get into kind of the four ways to grow a firm.
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Thanks so much, Chip.
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I'm not going to take the fact that you just dated us, that we've been knowing
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each other for, I don't think, maybe 11 or 12 years now that we're old.
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But I just call it experienced or seasoned.
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it is interesting in a lot of ways and a lot of things.
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And I'm going to talk about a big life picture here that
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the basics are the basics.
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I still think the old Green Bay sweep is a great play.
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You know, if you do it right, it still works.
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But in any event, again, the background of Vista Consulting is, uh, um, I
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started this with my friend, Chad Dudley.
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And around 2008 and I ended up buying Chad out in 2018 because
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of some business reasons.
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He and I are still very good friends and no issues there.
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But yeah, together we came up with a lot of concepts and some
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of them have been amended a little bit and some are still the same.
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But the one concept that we believe in, that I believe in, that Vista teaches.
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is that there are really only four ways to grow a plaintiff law firm.
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And two of those ways are actually subsets of the other two.
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I'll just, I'm not going to hold anyone in suspense.
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, and it's not rocket science.
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I can kind of feel people, reaching for their pencils and pens and
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saying, I'm going to write this down.
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Well, you're going to probably laugh a little bit, but the first
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way is you got to get more cases.
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That's what you're in the business to help do in the marketing side of things.
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But you got to get those cases and then , on those cases you have
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to increase the resolution value.
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That's number two.
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So get more cases, increase the resolution value.
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Are the major two, number three is giving the client such a great experience as
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they come through That they will revisit if needed but refer and become a raving
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fan of your firm so concentrating on that experience helps you get more cases so
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you can see that's a subset and number four is simply reviewing every system
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and process that you use in moving a case through the firm to make sure it is
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as efficient and effective as possible.
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And we, uh, I call that the Athens, you know, you got to be good on the Athens.
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Okay, efficient and effective.
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I don't stop at just efficient because efficient simply means being fast.
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And there are at times when cases need to marinate, need to
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ripen on the vine, you need to do more research, you need experts.
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And you do that in order to increase the case value.
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Efficient and effective processes, having a great experience cycle finding the ways
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to improve the resolution value of the cases, and actually acquiring more cases.
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So everything that, that we do in our business is to
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help our clients help theirs.
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So what we do is help our clients concentrate.
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on those four ways.
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How do you get more cases?
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How do you increase the case value as the major two?
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I mean your business is, I'll say it this way and I know it's not exactly this way.
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It's making the phone ring or making the leads come in from whatever source.
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We generally pick up from there and how do you not fumble that intake?
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What are the procedures?
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What are the things that work?
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What metrics do you?
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Follow what do you track?
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How do you train your team?
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How do you teach empathy?
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And I know that you guys are working on some metrics in your world marketing
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dashboards and what's not, um.
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That can be effective in these areas as well.
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And now that I've said that word dashboard, I want to
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define it a little bit.
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A dashboard is just a collection of reports.
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Just like you imagine in your car.
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It's a collection of gauges or reports that can tell you things all in one place.
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And there are lots of, people in this industry now say,
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oh, we've got a dashboard.
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And I always wonder is it the right reports on that dashboard?
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I don't know.
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But uh, anyway I'm rambling a little bit, but that's the
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four ways to grow the business.
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And I can go into a lot of detail on all of that, but that's.
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The firms, the plaintiff firms need to keep their eye on that ball, if you will.
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Yeah.
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So I hope that makes some sense to you.
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No, it makes a lot of sense.
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And I mean, but like you said, I mean, the devil is in the details, right?
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I know for us, we went down the road very far with a number of different
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products in order to start to draw up kind of that marketing dashboard.
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And, there's , two different places that I really give a lot of I want to give a nod
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out to in terms of what set the direction of the company that I run, right?
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La Fleur Marketing Vista Consulting is one of those, you know,
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like, I'm not blowing smoke.
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I went to that conference and I thought, okay, this makes a lot of sense, right?
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I'm not a lawyer, but I know how to run a business.
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And Ben Glass with great legal marketing.
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I went to one of his conferences early, early stage two.
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And you know, what the takeaway is.
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From those two experiences, really, oftentimes, it really boils down to what
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is important needs to get measured and what gets measured gets attention, and
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kind of set things and moves things in the direction that you want the firm to go.
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Because if you're not measuring, then you're just going off a feel.
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And that's what I've experienced, as we've worked with a number of different
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firms and we've seen some be more effective and others be less effective.
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And, um, And Chip, I'm going to
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interrupt you and say one thing here, that it's our opinion, and I think it's a fact,
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that to scale any business you're going to have to get some type of reporting,
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because if not, you're going to have to look into, say you're an automobile repair
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shop, someone's going to have to expect every, inspect every brake job, somebody's
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going to have to inspect every this or that, And in plaintiff law firms there's
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sometimes not a lot of transparency in what's going on within the cases.
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So having an adequate case management system, knowing what reports to produce,
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how to analyze those reports, and that kind of thing are very important.
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And again, our businesses happen to go hand in hand, and I think that's
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why we're talking to each other.
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Hopefully giving our mutual clients an idea of what is important, but
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marketing and operations you have to have that, if you don't have
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the cases then all is for naught.
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But if you get a lot of cases and you don't handle them well, then you're
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going to be like the restaurant who does great in marketing, but doesn't
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train the weight team and the chef.
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And they may come, but they come once and that's it.
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And then they become not your advocate, but your adversary in the marketplace.
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So.
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That's what we believe
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now.
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I agree.
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In One of the things that I wish I had known actually years ago when I started
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running the business is how much you need to be able to filter through the feedback
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that you get, from people on your team, the folks that you're working with.
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You know, if you don't keep your eye on that ball around those metrics, then
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what I've experienced and, you know, just draw a parallel from the media.
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I don't know if you ever watched the mini series, Chernobyl.
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Yeah, I did, I did.
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It's a great show.
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I loved it.
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But what you see throughout the whole experience is like when the
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weight of performance is landing squarely on a person, that person
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wants to make sure that they get perceived as being effective.
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And within an organization due to the nature of an organization, the nature
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of a company, You have leadership, you may have a president, you may have a
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CEO, you may have a leadership team.
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All of the people in the organization wants that group of people to
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think that they're doing great.
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And often for good reason, right?
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Our own sense of worth and value is tied to, you know, if we're
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perceived as productive, effective, efficient, and things like that.
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And, what I loved about that show, and I realize it's a fictionalized
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version, but it kind of underscores the challenges of running like a true
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merit, merit based organization, right?
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I
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totally agree.
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And that's one of the reasons.
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That when we start looking at metrics, we have three different
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levels of metrics that we use.
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There's the management level.
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That's kind of the win.
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Who's winning?
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Are we winning and losing?
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Okay.
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Then there's what we call the diagnostic level, which is for mid management and
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maybe even upper management, but mid management to say, Hey, I'm going to give
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you an example that who's not blocking or tackling or who is blocking and tackling.
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So we can see this big scoreboard, but who's performing well.
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Okay, and I'll give you an example just in the intake department.
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We want a conversion rate and our definition of conversion rate is from
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the cases you sign to the cases that you want that meet your criteria.
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And we think that should be 92%.
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percent or more.
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And that's great.
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But if you have 10 people or maybe even five people in your intake department
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or maybe it's even two people in your intake department, one could be
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performing exceptionally well and the other not so well, but the average
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still hits where it needs to be.
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So there still needs to be coaching to that.
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team member that is not performing as well.
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So you got management reporting, you got diagnostic reporting.
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And then what's very important to us as well is what we call line
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reporting are the people on the line.
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If someone calls in again using intake and our reaches out in some
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way and you don't get them right away or they hang up or the calls drop.
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How do we reach back?
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What is the phone number?
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What is their contact information?
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That gives the person doing the actual work, the production,
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a schedule or a work plan.
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So again, we believe in three different types of metrics and reporting within
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businesses or within law firms.
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And part of our job is to hold people accountable.
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You know, it's funny, we talk about all these metrics.
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Just yesterday someone told me that VISTA is known as the report people.
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And, I thought about that, over the night.
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And I came in this morning and I actually wrote it down.
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I think we want to be the accountability people because that's what those reports
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are for, is to help hold your team accountable, not in a with a hammer way,
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but in a coaching and a compassionate and to help you perform well way.
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So there's different ways to, to use that information.
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Yeah, it makes sense.
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Operational performance is the measurements of whether or not the
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organization is moving forward.
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And so if you can't measure that, if you can't drill in and get the bottom
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of things, I look at reporting is what are the things that I want to see?
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What is that first line that I want to see when things are going wrong?
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And I've had that conversation internally here within our own organization
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many times through the years.
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Okay.
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No matter how many times I tell people I wanna know what's wrong, they still
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love to tell me about what's going right.
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Mm-hmm . You know mm-hmm . And I don't blame them.
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And I do the same thing, right?
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I've got a board of directors that I report to and speak
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out to and it is human nature.
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You wanna tell people what's going right and you wanna chip, oh, sorry.
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Oh no, you're all right.
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And I've been down that road and I know you're familiar with the story, but we
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have a client that we worked with that we have worked with for a long time.
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They have a great dashboard because you helped them put it together.
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But, as is often the case, when new client signups started going south.
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And they weren't hitting the numbers that they expected.
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The first thing that they did was look at the marketing, to say,
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Hey, well, something's going wrong, with our intake, with our leads.
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And we ended up having to drill down pretty deeply and go through
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each of those phases of reporting.
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Right.
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Um, and I didn't have the vocabulary to.
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Define them in the same way that you just did, but first we looked
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at intake numbers, intakes are down.
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Okay, what does that mean, right?
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Because to me that reporting is the start of trying to diagnose, as you said,
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trying to diagnose the problem, right?
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The reporting should be there to help you see problems.
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No organization is going to run without them, right?
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We're going to have problems.
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We're going to have things that we can optimize and improve upon.
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And so, you know, they came back to us and said, Hey, our intakes are down.
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We think that, you know, what did you guys do on the marketing side?
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What's impacted here?
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We ended up pulling a whole bunch of their data out of their case management system.
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And what we actually found out in that case was that even though they're
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wanted their Win ratio as it pertained to wanted cases was up there What we
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found was that the intake team was marking things as unwanted when they
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weren't able to close the deal Yeah, and so they're wanted to unwanted
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ratio stayed right where you right?
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That's a training
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issue That is a total training issue.
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When we say there's only four ways to grow the business There I'm
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Guessing there's a thousand little ways that go into each of those ways.
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And,
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and knowing the ones that are the most important, we're often asked,
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if you had to measure two things in a law firm, what would they be?
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And I'll tell you what they are.
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It's no secret.
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I'd measure conversion rate on intake . From to the ones you want to the ones you
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sign and then client contact and I'll tell you why on client contact that's something
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that should be in your case management system and if it's not, whatever the
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firm's criteria is every 21 days, every 14, whatever the firm's criteria is,
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it has, in my opinion, the Has to be measured because that drives case value.
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Yeah.
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'cause when you talk to your client and they tell you that something's
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going on, I've got a new doctor, Hey, I'm feeling okay, but I've
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got some tingling in my left hand.
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Oh my gosh.
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That triggers so many different things.
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So if there were only two measurements, conversion rate, in intake and
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client contact in case management
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. The biggest part of the two ways, the main two ways to grow your business, getting
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them in and then treating them well.
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And the contact, there's 10 different things that goes into
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what questions and all those things.
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So you can keep peeling back this onion.
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But those are the things that we consider important.
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We help our clients measure and the ones that do that, they see a real
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change or move in their needle.
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I mean, just think about it.
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If a firm is hitting 85 percent on their conversion rate and then all of a sudden
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we can get them to 92 or 3 or 4 and that's 5 cases a month, I'm just throwing this
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out there, and let's just say that to make the math easy, it's 10,000 Dollars a
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month, so you got 50, 000 a month That's 600, 000 a year that this firm is missing.
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So when you start looking at things this way, again, the devil is in the details,
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but having the scoreboard and having the diagnostic reports and actually
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helping the line workers do their job efficiently it drives great service.
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It drives good experience for the client.
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And guess what?
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You make more money.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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No, it just makes sense.
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I mean, we play around with this idea every time we get a physical, right?
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We go to the doctor, the doctor says, Hey, what are our early stage indicators?
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Oh, your cholesterol is high.
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Well, your cholesterol is high, this might result in this long term issue, right?
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And so you have to do that drill down to say, okay, what are we watching?
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Why are we watching it?
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And then what can we do to change that?
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And we're familiar with that concept, I think in our day to day life, but
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applying that across the business, I think it's easy to get hung up
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on, political movements within an organization, different people
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have different levels of charisma.
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Some people come off as being more of a team player, but the data doesn't lie.
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The data points are going to cut through all of that.
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And, the way that we use it, we operate on an EOS type structure internally,
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which has been a game changer for us.
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It allows us to just look and say, all right, if we look at this every week
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and one of these metrics are wrong, that's not the end of the conversation.
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It's the beginning of the conversation, right?
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Absolutely.
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And, you always want to, you always want to look at things positively and things
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like that, but like that diagnostic view.
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To say, okay, maybe all of our numbers look great.
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But where can we drill down and find where we can optimize and improve them?
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Going back to that story around the intake team of that firm, what we
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found out was that they had one person who was really a major performer.
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And so they were looking at the dashboard that you put together.
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They noticed something was off that triggered a response and the response
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was to drill down into the data, right?
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Yes, like it didn't give them the answer.
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It just told them that somewhere over here.
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There's an issue It told us where to look and in that scenario What we ended
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up doing was we ended up exporting their case management File into power be I at
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the time and then we drilled down and we started looking at the intake team and
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seeing the different performance and we found kind of an anomaly in that , like
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I said, people were getting marked is not wanted, but they actually were wanted.
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And so we end up having a look at the actual.
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The actual conversion rate are independent of wanted versus not because we knew that
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there was probably going to be pretty consistent percentages across the intake
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teams and what we found was that one person marked a ton more leads as wanted.
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And then they closed the same amount of wanted so they were hitting,
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I think, 60 percent of the leads that came in, they called wanted
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and they brought them in the other
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observation.
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Here's the reports were right.
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The input that went in was wrong.
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And that is a. training problem, a discussion, a teaching moment,
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and that's what metrics do for us.
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It's funny you mentioned, you know, the data doesn't lie.
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It doesn't lie, but when you dig in, often you find subjective
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things that are causing it.
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This particular person , wasn't trained, was trained incorrectly or whatever it
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was that made them check a box different.
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And that's why, we believe in retraining, retraining, retraining.
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There's a , theologian in the 1700s named Samuel Johnson, and he said
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something that I absolutely love.
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He said, Because a lot of times, we don't need to learn something new.
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We need to be reminded.
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Yeah.
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And I love that because that's what, we believe in lunch and learns at law firms.
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We believe in constant training.
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And it's not that, hey, we're going to teach you something new.
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Let's just remember what we should be doing.
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And if you're, no matter what, if you are religious or not religious, but
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people that go to church, synagogue, mosque, wherever, they know the story.
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They go to be reminded, and this is the same thing, so I hope
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that makes some sense to you.
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It makes a ton of sense, and to me that story in that example is an
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example of the reporting going right?
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Yes, right because the issue was raised not after the revenue was
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not received like, you know there would have been two ways to approach
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this navigate this one would have been Hey a year and a half later.
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We're not seeing revenue come into the firm Because a year and a half previous,
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we weren't addressing this issue.
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So if you're just looking at the bank account and you're looking at the
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funds coming in, It's way too late.
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This got raised, about a month in, intakes dropped in, in one month.
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And in that very first month, the flag was raised and said, Hey, we need
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to find out what's going wrong here.
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And, as is often the case, marketing got tossed out there first.
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Right.
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But that was okay.
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You guys are the easiest to point to.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But that worked out great because I love digging into the data and
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finding the right answer because.
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Due to them flagging and saying, Hey, we're not bringing
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in the leads that we want.
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You guys are giving us bad leads.
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We dissected it within 30 days.
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They had rehired the person who had left, who had that high close rate
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and she was back up and running.
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And she continued to produce at a very high level for that firm.
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And if six months had gone by.
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Uh, if three months had gone by, I don't think they would have
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been able to rehire that person.
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They wouldn't have been able to address that.
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I call that the
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bubble through the snake.
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When there's a problem in a law firm, when your intakes are down, the revenue
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goes down, eight, nine, 10 months down the road, or maybe a little bit
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longer depending on the type firm.
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But the longer you let the problem persist, the bigger the bubble.
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And that can cause problems.
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We saw a lot of that during COVID when Everyone in the country's intake was down
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for a specific reason, it wasn't much that people could do it You know, it was funny,
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you're getting that payroll protection money back then and the problem wasn't
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then The problem is going to be in the future and we had to do some serious.
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Writing in making sure that the government knew, hey, our problem is not right
22:51
now, it's, but it's coming . And, uh, so we were successful with that.
22:54
But anyway, it's just observation my job , I told somebody yesterday that my job
22:58
is really, I'm a professional observer, and just watching and then saying,
23:02
okay, what is causing these things?
23:04
And I would go as far to say, forget about business, but anything that's gone
23:08
a little bit wrong in my life is because I didn't get it set up right to begin with.
23:12
And that's what we try to do is just make sure our firms are looking
23:15
at what they should be looking at.
23:16
Hey, if it's a problem here today, it can be a problem there
23:20
tomorrow, which affects revenue.
23:22
And again, just one more observation, if a firm comes to us and says, we're not
23:27
making enough money, that is a by product.
23:30
That's a by product of systems, processes, things you're doing in the beginning.
23:35
Because profit is a byproduct of good service and systems and processes.
23:41
So we just need to sometimes redirect a little bit, and I'll say remind.
23:46
Hey everybody, if you think about it, that makes sense.
23:48
But sometimes we, you know, I say that, and I'm pointing out
23:52
myself, I'm intellectually lazy.
23:54
Okay, I've got a problem now.
23:55
What's going on, the problem is not at the end of the assembly line.
23:58
The problem is back up the assembly line and sometimes we don't go there.
24:03
So anyway, it's fun to look at that and Help law firms realize, you know
24:08
that there's a lot of moving parts in here , it's very simple get more
24:12
cases increase the average case value.
24:14
Oh, but here are another thousand things that go into that
24:18
Yeah, for sure for sure, but you know, I appreciate your perspective.
24:22
I mean your perspective carries I think an additional weight because
24:26
You have the opportunity to observe across multiple firms, right?
24:30
And it gets us outside of our own little bubble, you know
24:33
of hey I'm there every day.
24:35
These are the people.
24:36
These are the personalities, but when you see patterns across multiple
24:41
organizations, that's where I think a lot of that value comes in.
24:44
Now, you guys have a conference coming up, right?
24:47
Yeah, we do.
24:47
You want to share some details around that?
24:48
Yeah.
24:49
April the 7th and 8th in Nashville, Tennessee.
24:52
We're calling it Vista 360.
24:54
We're going to be concentrating at that event on four different things.
24:58
It's not the four ways to grow a law firm, but it's the practice of law, the business
25:03
of law, or business of running a law firm, leadership, the importance of leadership
25:08
in that, and also the disruption that's going on in this law firm, plaintiff
25:13
law firm industry, and we could do it.
25:16
Five podcasts on that ship, but there's a lot of things are changing non
25:19
lawyer ownership potential investment coming in from lots of different
25:24
places and I could go into Again, 10 other things that are causing it, the
25:28
aging population of law firm owners
25:31
anyway,
25:31
so But we're going to be covering those things.
25:34
And I know it's going to be a really good event.
25:37
And I think there will be a lot of knowledge transfer, which is what we want.
25:41
So I appreciate you bringing that up.
25:43
No, I appreciate it, Tim.
25:44
As always, man.
25:45
Thank you.
25:45
Thank you for joining me here.
25:47
I appreciate your insight, your experience too.
25:49
It's always a pleasure.
25:50
You're very welcome, man.
25:51
And go to our website.
25:53
If you need to look us up, www.vistact.com that's as in Cat,
25:58
Tom, Vista "Consulting Team" .com.
26:02
Thank you, Chip.
26:04
Thanks, Tim.
26:05
A big thank you to Tim for joining us today.
26:08
You can learn more about Tim through the Vista Consulting website,
26:11
www.vistact.com, or Mckey Business group site at www.Mckeybusinessgroup.com.
26:21
You can also find Tim on LinkedIn or catch him at Vista 360 on April
26:25
seven and eight, 2025 at the Omni Hotel in Nashville, Tennessee.
26:30
Registration is open and spots are filling up fast.
26:34
Legal Marketing Radio is a production of the LaFleur marketing.
26:36
Find us at LaFleur.Marketing and on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.