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What I've Learnt - Dani Valent · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Dani Ballon is one of Australia's most respected food communicators.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: She's a longtime freelance journalist and restaurant creator, award-winning co-author, host of the popular Dirty Linen Hospitality podcast.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Her business card says, writer, eater, traveller court.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if you could tell Danny's eatholm in a phrase, it would be connecting people through great food experience.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: In 2020, Danny worked with Jeff Benchuri to support temporary data holders through the pandemic by the advocate project.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: A hospitality advocate, Danny has helped drive discussion around the smashing impact of the pandemic on the hospitality industry, including cafes, restaurants, service providers, event managers, and the flora of hospitality workers who have found themselves without work.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about pivoting, adapting, innovating, and finding new ways to create, communicate and deliver food.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: So Danny, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me, Deb.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's really great to be here.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Absolute pleasure.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, coming clean with the Dirty Linen podcast host, excuse the Pum.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: You and I have known each other for years, not only as fellow journalists, but also our fathers, both actually psychiatrists, are very good friends.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's pretty funny.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: We were both raised with a deep sense of curiosity and listening and learning from others.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us a little bit about your food obsession and where it all began, because I'm very curious.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm sure that you'll be able to relate to it.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, food was always where we gathered as a family.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we we all had to sit down for meals, and that included breakfast.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it was always an anchor for us.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think another tradition that we had was every second Friday night we went to Supter's house, which is my uh dad's mother, and that was just across the road from your family home.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, indeed, we have been connected and crossed paths for decades, really.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so that was, you know, that was the Jewish side of the family, and so that was a Sabbath dinner, not religious at all, but just a lot of different traditions from uh Central and Eastern Europe uh on the table in front of us.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was also, we me and my brother and sister slept over on those Friday nights.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we had other food memories that are nothing to do with any sort of cultural heritage, but we were allowed to have cocoa pots and uh chocolate drinks and fizzy drinks.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so it was food was always a place that you could, I guess, find special moments for me.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really true, and maybe that's why you know you've managed to capture so much of the sort of cultural resonation around food in what you do and and many of your articles, because it really, I suppose, has some symbolism for you that you've carried through.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's for a lot of people, you know, food has become, and and particularly we have such a multicultural city.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something that I think I like about what you do and you reflect that.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me about that too.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is that do you think that comes from that early experience and that essence of food that you came to love and obsess about when you were younger?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think everybody has food stories, you know, everybody eats, everybody's has some kind of culture, even people who think that, you know, they're a blank slate, they're really not.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think food's always been for me an incredibly powerful way to connect with people.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I first started writing about food when I worked for Lonely Planet, the travel publisher.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, when you're traveling, food is always a part of it, you know, to a lesser or greater degree.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: But Lonely Planet started doing guides to world cuisine and guides to restaurants in Melbourne and Sydney.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So those are my first food writing experiences, like really, I guess, thinking about food in a different way, not just as something to eat and enjoy, but as a way to communicate with people and share, help people access other experiences and connect with different cultures.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: My first big food writing job was for Lone Me Planet, and it was a guide to Turkish cuisine.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I was totally thrown in the deep end.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, basically my boss said to me, We need somebody to go to Turkey to eat.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Dream job, like dream job, like exactly.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, oh yes, hello, I'm absolutely ready.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, like where's the plane?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm jumping straight on.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, it was as good as it sounds, but it was, you know, the the typical lonely planet job is, you know, youth hostels and bus timetables and museum opening hours, to be then, you know, running down laneways in Istanbul and you know, to look for the best yogurt or the secret spice for the chicken kebab, you know, that was much more exciting and so rich and such a great way to start talking to people and learning what was really at the heart of their stories.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the grandfather that came across the mountains with a goat and, you know, making cheese along the way, you know, it's it's so resonant.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I was totally transfixed.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, writing was always the first thing for me, but since I've been writing and focusing on food, I've realized, I mean, every day I'm learning, every day I'm connecting with people.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I love it so much.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And also, it really does feel like it was another planet listening to that story that you just told.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: It literally does feel like another planet in terms of what we're going through now.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, that really, you know, you can't, yeah.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just insane when you when I think of all the stories we were sent out to as journalists everywhere, all over the world, you know, it's just quite a surreal notion.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you and I had ever dreamed in a million years that that you actually couldn't get on a plane from your own country, I don't think you, you know, it's so dystopian, isn't it?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's absolutely unimaginable.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, you really do reflect on how incredibly privileged we were to take travel for granted.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, our our world has, you know, or you know, the privileged in the world have have grown up with that.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: People don't only travel for pleasure, you know, we have so many, including my family, you know, people that have come to Australia with with refugee histories and, you know, very difficult histories.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so I suppose people move around the planet for all kinds of different ways.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: But to have that so curtailed and to have that, I just always felt like an explorer.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was always planning my next food adventure or adventure, and to have that so curtailed has been really quite shocking.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I suppose to flip it, you know, what you do realize is that you can still travel with food, especially in a city like Melbourne or a country like Australia, where we are surrounded by people with all kinds of culinary histories.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: We've got amazing ingredients, and it's definitely I've actually learnt heaps about regional cuisines during the pandemic.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: I've learned lots, I've learned, I know a lot more about Indonesian regional cuisine, I've learned about Indian regional cuisine, you know, Malaysian regional cuisine, simply because I've connected with people here who have that heritage.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's been a very rich time of exploration, even while we've been stuck at home.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because as a journalist for me, the podcast has been incredibly liberating.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's allowing sort of a deep dive, long sessions, shining the light on a diverse cross-section of guests and issues, which you just referred to.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, in in a strange way, as you say, we can still travel in terms of while we can't obviously get on a plane right now.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: It is really eye-opening to see this new medium and these resources that we can access right in our backyard.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me how your podcast started and what it's meant to you, because I certainly know mine means a lot to me, and I've learned heaps and heaps and met some incredible people that I may not have otherwise.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I think journalism, you know, is a craft where you always feel privileged to hear other people's stories.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it is, I don't use that word privilege in an offhand sense.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like I always feel that that people put an incredible amount of trust in you that you will honour their story, and I take that really seriously.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think the podcast form is so powerful because you're giving people a space to tell their story, and you can use your journalistic skills to, I guess, steer it.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh engage with them.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Engage with them.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: But it is it you really are holding a space for them and holding a space for people who perhaps don't have a platform.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I suppose that's another layer to that privilege.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: But how did the podcast start?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: So my podcast is part of a small network of food-related podcasts called Deep in the Weeds.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And Deep in the Weeds is the is the original podcast on that channel.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's um hosted by my stable mate Anthony Huxtep, who's a fellow food writer.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And he very early in the pandemic, he started Deep in the Weeds to chat to hospitality people who were, you know, going through these unprecedented times.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I was a guest on his show and a couple maybe a couple of times.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I don't know, somehow between that conversation and chatting to his producer, Rob Locke, who is now also my producer, someone I've also known, who's a radio producer, a photographer, really talented guy.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we just thought, let's do a podcast, let's do dirty linen.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I really wanted to have a podcast that was really issues-based around hospitality, talking about things that the hospitality industry finds hard to share in public.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pretty intense industry.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's an industry that's been absolutely smashed by the pandemic, but has also found a way to express its innate resilience and creativity and thus find a way through.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've demonstrated that with like even, you know, listening to the pods and to the array of guests that you have.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: What I also notice is there's a there is a camaraderie of sorts that is really built up out of this because in a way everybody's been operating in reasonably isolated journeys as, you know, restaurateurs or cafes or even events.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody seems to have aligned a lot more, obviously, with a common struggle and challenge.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you've observed?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I couldn't, couldn't really put it better.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's hospitality, it's made made up for the most part of very small businesses, you know, family businesses, um, owner operators, and they are very much just very buried in their own businesses, especially now when it's, you know, survival is a day-to-day proposition.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that a lot of people have found this my podcast and and other podcasts, of course, to feel a way to feel less isolated, to hear people tell stories that they can relate to, perhaps give them ideas.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I love to do sort of actionable suggestions in my podcast if people have, whether it's about mindset or about, you know, I don't know, how to run how to pack a takeaway box, just really to bring that sort of collegial feeling in an industry that is often very fragmented.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a big part of it.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I hear from lots of people, you know, we we listen, we always have it on in the kitchen while we're prepping that night's orders, you know, things like that.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: I always drive when I'm, you know, driving to work, I always have it on.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you just think, well, that is that is a real privilege that someone, you know, puts you in their ears and and you know, it's I just yeah, I'm super grateful to for every listen.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's there is a grassroots element that really is surfacing, which has always been there and is always very present, especially in the Melbourne scene, but also Sydney to some degree, although Sydney's still, I think, reeling and is still really in shock.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're sort of through shock and we're just in morphing, adapting, trying to, you know, it's interesting the just watching and hearing some of the stories.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as you know, I've had like from Bruce Kieber from the big group who's featured on my podcast to culinary doy and Chris Lucas.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's been some high-powered invested culinary kings and queens furious and pretty vocal about the Victorian government approach, as you know.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think, you know, what are your thoughts around that?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's helped, hindered or facilitated any traction?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that those, I mean, obviously everybody reposts their videos and reposts all of their, you know, pretty some of it's pretty strident.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: As opposed, I think you tend to focus much more on what can we do and what's happening and what is actually, you know, yes, you post sort of some daily updates and these are the new rules, which is quite helpful.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: But what are your thoughts around without getting too politic?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Clearly, there is major agenda and political drive to get change in this state in particular.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts around that?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, I think you know, the loudest voices aren't always the representative voices.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think that, you know, the people that you mentioned are incredible operators.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, as a city and a state and a country, we're really lucky that they are putting the energy and the and the resources that they they do into hospitality and events.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think it's what the pandemic has really highlighted for me in Australia is how privileged we have been in many cases and for many of us to not be forced to be too political.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that as the pandemic has shown up many of the fault lines in our society, that's become more less possible.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people are really rubbing up against difficulties that they haven't had to encounter before.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think that's that's been really illuminating for me.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I guess my perspective as a journalist is to give a give a space for stories and definitely to give a space for for people who don't always get their viewpoints out there.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I've had Bruce on the podcast.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't had Chris, but you know, I've written plenty of stories that Chris has featured in.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not that I don't think their perspectives are valuable, but I think that because they are very powerful figures, they do get a lot of air time.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really important to uh try to keep it balanced and try to give other people who have opinions and perspectives that are just as valid some room as well.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: I totally agree with you.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's very, very important because, as you say, it's not always the loudest person in the room.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And also it's very important to give that diversity of lens so that you get a really strong sense that there's a lot more happening, other than some of the, you know, and some of these people are extraordinary what they've done for our for our industry and for our city and for our state.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, obviously have great um respect for that.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think you're right.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And there also are some people who are struggling, really cold-faced struggle, like my, you know, shutting their businesses and literally having no staff and that's it, and having to completely create new journeys, and many of them on the visa holders who you've obviously campaigned for a lot, who have had to literally either go back to their country if they can or find a way through.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit about that, because that's been that that's real coal face.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's like a sort of a war zone of sorts.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the temporary visa holders, you know, people who are here are perhaps on skilled visas, skilled worker visas, on working holiday visas, on student visas, international student visas, they're really, they've for decades, they've been the engine room of the hospitality industry.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: So every restaurant has got somebody on a visa working in it.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, multiple people, probably more than half, you know, in a lot of restaurants.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it became evident really like right at the beginning of the pandemic when those visa holders were excluded from job keeper and the job seeker payments that this was going to be a really huge problem in lots of different ways.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it was going to be a problem for them because they had no money and their uh places of employment were closed, or at least at the least on super restricted hours.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was going to be a problem for the industry on the other side because when businesses reopened, they wouldn't have enough staff.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and there's other social justice problems with it, there are health problems, you know, people who are desperate for work perhaps won't, you know, get tested and isolate, those kinds of things.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there's lots of problems with it.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, I mean, right from the beginning, I started campaigning on behalf of these people, particularly to have them included in JobKeeper.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: That never happened.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: What has happened is that when the COVID disaster payment was stood up, you know, in and out of lockdowns during this year, 2021, after JobKeeper was retired, visa holders have been included in that payment.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that is that I think there's lots of problems with the COVID disaster payment in the way it's structured.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing about it that is brilliant is that these temporary workers who are critical, critically important to our society and to the hospitality industry, among other industries in particular, but they're also just here and need to be looked after.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's great that they're able to get those payments.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think actually they've set up a specific hotline for those visa holders because many of them struggle with the, as many people do, with the bureaucracy of trying to actually apply for this, all of these different payments, it is actually quite challenging.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I did note that they have set up a specific hotline to try and facilitate that.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I suppose that's some positive as well, so that they can navigate what is sometimes incredibly challenging.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's definitely there's lots of challenges, but most people that I've been in touch with, and yeah, I'm still in touch with heaps of people.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if they if they're eligible for the payment through because of a lost working hours, they they are able to access it.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a lot of source of great comfort.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great news to hear.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and what about some of the innovations that you have seen, people who have actually adapted?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we know in the fashion industry there are some who have started making masks and PPE, and you know, there's been that sort of adaptation.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any anything that comes to mind in terms of innovations and some positive stories to come out of this where you've seen people, you know.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's so many, and they honestly never cease to surprise me because people, even now, when we're all so ground down and you just feel like you do not have another idea left in your body, the respirators are still doing new things.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, one thing I just heard about today is this really beautiful Japanese restaurant, Kazuki's, which is in Carlton, and their weekend box this week is their multicultural menu.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, like every kitchen, they've got people from all different nationalities working in it.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: So they're doing dishes from each of their, you know, different staff members.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and loves that.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it's a menu that includes, you know, super British eat and mess for dessert and yeah, I don't know, just all kinds of things.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, a bit of Japanese, but a bit of French, and it's just it's just really lovely.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think so many restaurants now that are doing takeaway that are persisting with it, they're really doing it to keep their staff engaged and to keep a bit of money flowing through the business.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're definitely not doing it because it's profitable.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's that's you know, that's one that really stands out for me.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: But look, there are all kinds of things, you know, there are so many people doing online cooking classes that are paired up with ingredient boxes.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's new restaurants, you know.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine opening in June, you know, feeling uh a little.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: I just read about that.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Who just opened one?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh actually opened, I think somebody's just opened one literally in the pandemic.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Margaret, obviously, in Sydney.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Margaret in Sydney with Neil Perry.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I wrote an article about some Melbourne restaurants.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: So there's Roberta in the city, a Japanese grill which just opened, like did a soft opening, I think two nights, closed, opened for five days, closed, and they're doing ingredient boxes and they're great.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're really good.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: A beautiful wine bar or Terra in Armadale, which yeah, opened, closed.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, people put so much energy into these businesses and they so rely on momentum, you know, to keep that energy rolling.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: The stop-start nature of our lockdowns this year has been very punishing.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really tough.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's really tough because I mean, when it opens, everybody runs out, has their dinner, you know, has the, you know, book, everyone books the restaurant.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: They're all booked out.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just, you know, I mean, in those little gaps.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: So you book your restaurant, you run out for dinner, it's all over by 9:30, 10 because everybody's like exhausted and it's all a little bit scary because you're out and you haven't been out for like weeks, and then you're back in your rabbit hole.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's like, oh, we're in lockdown again.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, we might as well cook at home.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, maybe we don't need to go to a restaurant.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe like if there is a definite change in the way, as you say, the stop start from a dining out culture, which we have very much in Melbourne, and is intrinsic to so much of the way that we all function.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's just changing the way people are thinking.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like when you and I grew up, let's be honest, if we went out for like Wing Luen Chinese on a Sunday night, it was really like as a family, it was huge.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like we did not have that eat out culture like we have now, you know, when we're young.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So there's sort of been this huge uplift of a very strong eat-out culture.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the pandemic, I think, has made everybody reflect and stop and think, oh, maybe we just cook at home or maybe we don't need to go out to that restaurant.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a flow-on of trying to keep momentum.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: There really is.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, you sort of bring up something pretty interesting, Deb.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people are talking about that in the hospitality industry, which is maybe restaurants actually do need to shift back a little bit to that special occasion because it wasn't, it's not just because of the pandemic that restaurants aren't making money.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Most restaurants really struggled to turn a decent profit before the pandemic.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: It was, it's a really difficult business.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And part of the reason for that is that there's a downward pressure on prices because eating out is so ubiquitous.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think most operators would agree that there are too many restaurants or there were too many restaurants, and that people took it for granted and they didn't think they should pay too much.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for it to shift a little bit into that special occasion that you are prepared to pay for is actually good for restaurants.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it makes it more profitable.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: You mean as in it it's more, it's it's more practical for them as well, because then they can they can it can be profitable.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem with food being too cheap is goes all the way down the line.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've had plenty of uh underpayment scandals in Australia.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, but there, but that's you know, I think the part of the blame for that rests with diners who don't want to pay too much.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like if diners diners pay a bit more, staff can be paid properly, animals can be farmed better, there's not so much pressure on the farmers.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there's it's a big conversation.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're not gonna solve it now.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like in the rush to be the sort of the culture vultures that we are, we've got, as you, you know, as you reflected, we've almost got a bit carried away with ourselves to some degree.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: We don't need a restaurant at the bottom of every apartment building.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we don't need a restaurant on every corner.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think restaurants, you know, they'll yeah, there should be restaurants at all the different price points that people can make it work for themselves, but it's we don't we're not entitled to, you know, restaurants.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're not entitled to$15 dinners or$30 dinners or whatever it is, you know.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is special to eat out and we we should treat it as such.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the pandemic has showed us when we can't eat out, you know, a lot of people are like, oh my God, I value restaurants so much more because I know how bad it is to not have them.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And also it means that, you know, I mean, it's interesting because as I said, you know, now it's like for a lot of people, it's like weekends are just eating out.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it's been for the last few years, really.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's takeaway, whatever it is, it's changed.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, the whole, then there's the whole delivery platform culture, which we can also talk to, which is how that's also impacted the notion of just moving to the Uber world and to the whole idea that you get your food delivered, as well as having a financial and somewhat punitive impact on many restaurants.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's also a quality issue.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got a whole lot of people going, wait a sec, like I've ordered from X extremely good restaurant.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's arrived, it's not warm, and it sort of tastes like a bit not great.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that is not a reflection or a fair reflection of the restaurant, but of the timing or that the delivery driver went via four other places on their way to deliver.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got another financial and also quality issue with that.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So what we thought was like, yay, has become quite a quite unraveling, I think.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there's a lot of reputational risk uh when restaurants put their products into the hand of hands of third parties and when it's very much out of their control and it's heartbreaking for restaurants.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've had situations recently in in Melbourne and Sydney, you know, and at least as far as I'm, you know, I don't know if it's happened elsewhere, but where orders have not been picked up because there are too there's too much food waiting for the drivers and you know, what for whatever algorithmic um problem, they're they're not matched up.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that's just heartbreaking for restaurants because they know that the food that's sitting there, every minute it sits there, the soggier and the colder it gets.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also if they need to remake it, then there's a financial burden to that.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: I guess the message for anybody who's thinking about getting uh takeaway is if you can go direct to the restaurant, please do whenever you possibly can, because the third parties take a hefty cut, but yeah, they also don't have that same, I guess they don't necessarily have the same duty of care that a restaurant would have, you know, in terms of getting their product to you in the best possible condition.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've got we've got some of our locals who have actually now our local restaurants actually just deliver themselves.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not joking the other day, the actual owner of the restaurant turned up at my front door.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: He went, hi Dev.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, how are you, George?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: What are you doing here?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: And he went, Oh yeah, and I've got you know, I'm not that busy, and I just thought I'd pop in and you know, handed me.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, so nice to see you.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can't you can't come in, but yeah.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that was really, I thought, really quite a poetic, and he's done it a few times now because he said it's not worth it for me to have someone deliver my food.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: And also I can't guarantee the quality, and you're a really valued customer, and I don't want you to have crap food.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it is definitely a very important ongoing discussion where hopefully there'll be a shift of thoughts back a little bit on a number of fronts, as you and I have discussed, to just I think we've just lost our way a little bit.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm hoping that the sort of that grassroots special occasion approach, it's also not to mention, and we haven't even touched on that, is the financial impact.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: People do not have the money to go to these high-end restaurants or even their middle-end restaurants endlessly.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's also a factor.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all got to just recalibrate a little bit to make it affordable.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it it's a tricky one, isn't it?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because you people to be able to eat out at a you know, a decent price, an affordable price, but it needs to work for the restaurant as well.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: It needs to work for the staff, it needs to work for the suppliers and the producers.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know, like one answer or one way of looking at it is that you, you know, you don't go out uh three times a month, you go out once a month and you save but make it count.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, of course, that has implications for the mid-range restaurants.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Not everybody wants to run a fine dining restaurant.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, look, it's not the it's not one size fits all, there's not one solution, but I think these are definitely questions worth asking.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: And how are you feeling?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Are you feeling positive about the future in the culinary hospital world?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you think there's a lot of a shake up to happen still?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um pandemic and related to some of these other issues that we've talked about.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my heart breaks every day for the hard times that restaurateurs and hospitality workers are going through.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, a a board hospitality worker is not a hot happy hospitality worker.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: These are people who are, you know, really used to being busy and active.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I really do worry about, you know, the mental health ramifications of people being locked down and not feeling productive.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, look, I think, yeah, there's it's I can't be jolly hockey sticks about it.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, I think that of course we'll bounce back, of course we'll have beautiful restaurants, of course we'll have amazing food.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, of course there's reason for optimism.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people have shown how resilient they are.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't know we'd have to be this resilient.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: We could not have predicted, uh, you know, I thought this time last year I'd used up, you know, a pretty decent store of resilience.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know I was gonna need to, you know, recharge and drain, drain the tank yet again.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: But we're always gonna be people that love food.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's always gonna be people among us who love delivering those incredible food experiences.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, we will gather around joyful tables, uh you know, for many years to come.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we will look back on this time because it will, this pandemic will ebb, like it's not gonna be like this forever.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: We will look back on it and yeah, we'll be toasting our survival and our thriving into the future.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, on that wonderful optimistic note, which I share, thank you so much for joining me on the What I've Learned podcast, Danny.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's been an absolute treat.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Excuse the pun again.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I look forward to you know chatting to you again.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you so much for having me.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's been it's really a thrill to come on your podcast.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yes, congratulations on your work and thank you for letting me be part of it.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolute pleasure, Danny.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Love to all your family and to yours.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Love death.