Latest / Healing Her Story with Riva Jean-Paul / Reclaiming Menarche: Storytelling, Ritual, and the Power of Menstrual Cycle Awareness with Hannah Brown

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Reclaiming Menarche: Storytelling, Ritual, and the Power of Menstrual Cycle Awareness with Hannah Brown · Healing Her Story with Riva Jean-Paul

• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to today's episode of the Healing Her Story podcast.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: I am so excited, as always, to be here with you today.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love these guest episodes.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Lately, I've just been getting such a wonderful, yeah, just a thread of people that have been wanting to come on and share their wisdom.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: And today's guest is no different than that.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: This guest is someone who I actually work with.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is my menstrual cycle coach as well as my cyclical supervisor.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we came into connection through cycle coach school.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Cycle coach school is something that I've been, I'm not quite done with my certification yet, but we have finished the live course.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And part of getting the certification is that we must receive cycle sessions, cycle coaching sessions.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm looking around, and you know, there's a directory, and I'm, you know, trying to find someone who is really important to me as a trauma-informed facilitator that I'm working with someone who understands this and who not just understands it, but really embodies it and brings it into their work that they do.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I have found that for me, once I've become trauma-informed, I have a really hard time being able to go to the places that I need to go to do the work that I need to do when the facilitator, you know, coach, therapist, etc., doesn't have this lens.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm scouring the directory time after time and time because I wasn't able to find someone like this until I stumbled across this person who will be, I'll be introducing here in a moment.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I watched her guest workshop, actually, is how we connected.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I, it was on the cycle life journey.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it found I found it just to be such an interesting intersection.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it was less about, of course, what was being shared, I found to be very insightful and powerful.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it was more of the person behind the message that really um yeah, drew me in, if you will.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I followed up and I booked a call.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: And from the very moment that I spoke with Hannah, I felt so seen and so attuned to in a way that I don't think that I had ever experienced.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: I've had therapists, and I do have one who I deeply love and admire.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it was also important to me too.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: My my therapist is around my age.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I wanted to work with someone who's, you know, just done life a little bit longer than me.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to bring in this, this, this perspective.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I met with Hannah, I knew instantly, like, okay, I'm gonna be able to go where I need to go.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: I feel safe.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: I feel so seen and so attuned.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was just, I remember being so touched when I got off the cloud.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh my gosh, like, wow! Like I have never had, like, and there's few people who have really been able to see me in that way.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm really excited to have her on today to share her wisdom and her experience with you.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm joined by Hannah, a menstrual cycle coach, cyclical supervisor, social worker, and facilitator who has dedicated the past 20 years to supporting people through meaningful change.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Her own healing journey transformed when she discovered menstrual cycle awareness and began using her cycle as an anchor for personal growth.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And now she helps others do the same.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Hannah works with women seeking to reconnect with their cyclical nature, practitioners wanting supervision rooted in cyclical awareness, and young people preparing for their first periods.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Her work is grounded, empowering, and rooted in a vision of helping the next generation grow up feeling informed, supported, and proud of their bodies.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Hannah, welcome to the show.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what an introduction.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm quite moved.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: I feel quite um feel quite teary after that.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: What an intro.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're so welcome.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that kind of started organically in one of the earlier episodes, and everyone has always said, like, oh, like I feel so attached.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I love being able to just kind of like drop into our hearts and start in that way.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: That shows your generous spirit.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Hannah, the first question I always invite people to explore is their story.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're here to talk about menarch work and first periods.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in that theme, I'm wondering if you could share your story around your menarch journey or first period.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, of course.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for that invitation.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's so important that we um like go back there and do that reflection.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I know in psycho coach school, we're really encouraged to do that, like more than once, actually, aren't we?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: As kind of the preparation for the course and then kind of again.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, I've continued to do that at points um in further training as well, like when I did my Red School menstruality training.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but actually, I and I think and I and I think the story changes because your perspective changes.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's yeah, it's a really nice opportunity to kind of check in um to where it all started.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, because because yeah, I was gonna go off of about the start inform, how they continue and how they end, but I'll save that.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I was I was just I was in this, it was spring, which is interesting that I noticed that it was it was spring outer season, which actually is quite significant if you know I was starting my I was in the spring of my um and I was 11.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: I just turned 11, like a couple of months before that, I think.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I kind of like knew vaguely about periods.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um and my you know, my mum never hid it, in fact, the opposite, she was really open.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and also nobody else in that I knew, like, I was one of the first.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so um that was quite a thing I remember, but I'd always been quite mature, like physically, you know, when I was in like reception, so like first, not not first grade, you know, like before then.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um I had used to have to like take the little kids to the toilet because they couldn't reach the handles on the door.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like so that so it was a bit of a theme that I I it wasn't a surprise that I started bleeding first.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and what I remember about it, it's it's so interesting because I remember um my dad was around and my my mom wasn't around.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember like I think I I think it happened at school, I don't really remember that bit, but I remember crying and saying to my dad, like I'm sorry, my period.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And he was brilliant actually, given you know the kind of the context of it was like the 1990s in um rural England.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, we lived in the middle of nowhere, and so he went and got me.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think he went and got me some pads from my mum, from my mum's stash, and kind of gave me a hug and like you know, told me it would be and like I just remember him being I remember being really upset because my mum wasn't there, but I remember him being like pretty appropriate.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: I asked him about this recently actually, and he doesn't remember, which is quite interesting.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um then I and my mum was away working.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if like I don't know, remember for how long, but I remember when she came back like bursting into tears and being like, It's happened, mum.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um and she was just she'd bought me some earrings um as a kind of as a gift, you know, to kind of mark and um yeah, like a I remember at the time thinking, oh, I really like these heart-shaped, like little onyx studs that you'd got me because I'd not long have my ears pierced.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that was like pretty big girl stuff.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um I remember thinking, I don't really understand why you're giving me a present.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm bleeding, like why are we like I remember thinking, and she's something about you know how like you know, you're you're a woman now type vibe.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then and then and then after that, I think it was kind of a bit of a non-event in a way.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was, you know, I remember in that way that lots of people that I speak to subsequently do that that they kind of switch off from it, actually, and so a bit switch off from their bodies.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I remember over the the kind of years, yeah, being a bit detached from it, it being a kind of bit of a hassle, bit of a nuisance.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: So just didn't quite get why my mom was like emotional about it, and like I was thrilled to get a gift, but I kind of was a bit like, what's this about?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that's it.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's what I remember every day.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, beautiful.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for sharing that.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's a pleasure.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love how your your dad was able to meet you in that moment with the hug and just that reassurance, I think, sometimes that like it's gonna be okay.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like that can go a long way.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Did that really make an impact for you?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really funny because I realized recently that um my daughter, who is 13 and who started bleeding when she was 11.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like just after she started secondary school, I wasn't here either when she started, and my dad was.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: It seems it how that yeah.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it did at the time, I think I just was like annoyed.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think in hindsight, um, you did pretty well.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's great.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I also love how your your mom got you the pair of earrings, too.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting, like I know you and I have we've explored menarch work, and I think that that was something that I would have liked, like something to kind of like mark the moment.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and so it's funny, like as a little one, you're like, what the hell were these dreams, mom?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: But like as an adult, you're like, oh, like that's actually like what would be uh perhaps ideal for at least I know for myself.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's so interesting, isn't it?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's the like what would the adult else have liked?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, probably what the kid would have liked would have been some chocolate or like ceremony, what?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, it's really interesting.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, such a wonderful way to to start this discussion today.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious what led you from that early experience, because I know you said you were kind of like detached for from it from those years.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting, like um just to like thread in Claire Baker's history here.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like she, I remember her saying, you know, she was always kind of like curious about the cycle and women's bodies, and that doesn't sound like something that you had in your early childhood.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and so I'm wondering what kind of like led you to be a menstrual psycho coach and supervisor.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: What was that red thread?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's such a good is such a good question.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think like with lots of these things that you kind of work out what the thread is after, yeah.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly for me, like an as a as a um as a generator with the sacred authority, I got to make decisions based on my instinct, and then after go, oh, well that makes complete sense.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: The time I'm like, do you know?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I it in a way when I look back, it was quite random that I decided to do the cycle coach course.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now when I when I link it all up, I'm like, well, obviously that was what I did.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I'd gone, yeah, what what happened in in short was that I had was in my late 30s and had had two children by that point and knew like basics about kind of fertility, like I knew about you know how to track when you're ovulated for the purposes of conception.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: No clue that you could do that for the purposes of contraception, like that blew my mind that you could put your body in that way.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think until that point I'd been relatively disconnected from from my body, actually, which I feel like sad to say, but it's the truth, and the truth for so many of us, I think, that you know we for for lots of for lots of reasons and lots of kind of multi-layered um reasons that we disconnect.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think particularly the menstrual shame, etc.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, I read Maisie Hill's period power book.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I had been like in hindsight, I'd been a bit like rooting, I'd been kind of like searching around for things, um, and I'd experienced quite a significant um loss that I'd I was I was grieving around that time because I'd just lost my mum.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's significant in terms of kind of you know, re reevaluating what you're doing.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I literally read Maisie Hill's Period Power, and it was one of those, uh, like jaw-dropping, what the heck?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: How have I lived in this body for 37 years and I know nothing about her?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: That was it was one of those.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got I felt some real sadness around that, as I think lots of us do, and some kind of grief, and then I felt really angry because I was like, dear friend, like how how did I not know this?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then thinking, because the once you start once you know, you then think of all the times that would have been different in your life had you known.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, like my births, I was then thinking, oh my gosh, well, if I'd known this, then I would that wouldn't have happened.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's a reckoning, it's like a a renegotiation almost, isn't it?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: About um that lack of knowledge and information.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I kind of was on one then, was like telling all my girlfriends, you've got to read this book, you've got to read this book, and and I'd always been somebody who was like open about talking about periods and um like wanted to I've always wanted to challenge stigma and taboo anyway.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, social work is a good way of trying to kind of do that, I guess, in a certain way.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and in terms of stories, that's you know, really intra I've always been interested in that.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it seemed like a bit of a no-brainer.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, I kind of I was doing my social work job at the time and I'd moved out of direct practice and into training and consultancy and was missing direct work with people, you know.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, actually, nobody goes into social work because they want to sit behind a screen delivering training the whole time.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not what you do, why you do it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I was I was like, well, I can yeah, I can work, I can do psycho coaching, why not?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like slightly naively being like, well, yeah, just so yeah, retrained and yeah, it complete it's completely changed my life.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I hate like in a way that sounds so cringey when people say that, but it really has because I think I've developed my own personal practice around mental cycle awareness, which has improved my relationship with myself and my significant others, um, which is massive and has be kind of you know kind of become a spiritual practice, which is something that I never had, and I didn't think of myself as particularly religious or spiritual, but here we are, but also has really changed my career entirely um for the better, you know.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, and I think that's the thing, once you start live uh being more aware of and being able to be more in tune with your natural rhythms, it's quite hard then to go, oh no, I'm just gonna live in a way that ignores them.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's like not possible for me.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's really yeah.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the kind of that's the that's a bit of a long version, but yeah, that's how that's how I ended up here.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like kind of um a bit more intuitive, would you say?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Hugely.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that was why it was so interesting when then I when then I later learned about human design and learned that actually that's the way that I make decisions is for my gut, and then found out that I'd created a an uh a business called wisdom.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Was like, oh, yeah, that's that's that's been really interesting to track that process to kind of um reconnect with your in with your instinct and your intuition.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, I know, because I've for like for me, I believe like there really is like an intelligence that's within us, like a greater intelligence that is God, that is Allah, that is whatever you call that higher source of power.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And in that, there is something that is so much greater than what the mind can really comprehend and and make sense of.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: So when we can really learn how to to listen to it, uh to hear it, and then to trust it, I think life just gets real magical.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, and you are so good at that, like you're so in tune with that, with your higher power.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, thank you.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's beautiful to watch.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a practice, and and menstrual cycle awareness, I feel has really helped to enhance that too.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm you know, you've mentioned menstrual cycle awareness changed your life, and there's a few things that I say that about too.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm wondering if you can tell us uh what shifted for you and and how that's how it's inspired your work.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wow, that is a great question.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it's that classic thing that that that before I understood all my different phases, I thought that I was just moody and intolerant and irritable for like a week or two, and then back to my normal chirpy, happy self.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that that that my that was the like the norm, that was the ideal, that was the like that was the person that people wanted me to be, and that I thought was the better version of me.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the kind of moody, intolerant person that I was was like, oh problematic.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I see that so often in the with the clients that I work with, and that and um yeah, when you really kind of unpick that and think, hmm, int intolerant of of the the BS.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and actually, of course, that is a brilliant place to be.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so exploring all of those different parts and different phases of myself and um the joys and shadows that exist in all of them, and yes, like holding them tenderly, and um just understanding that that I'm not just one type of person, and just yeah, it massively shifted how I feel about myself and my relationship with myself, and um that's pretty big because you know, being by you've got to hold your own hand if you don't really like yourself, that's much harder.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we are the people we spend the most time with, right?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all day, every day.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to get into that kind of accepting and like, yeah.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think that was like huge.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember psycho coach school was massively part of that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: That whole like, I'm not mad or bad, I'm just different, like each phase.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a there's a kind of biological explanation for that, but you know, going into the archetypes of that as well, um, and how the archetypes relate to the life cycle, you know, that to me was magic, and really opened my eyes up to the whole, you know, like I'd really been interested in narrative work and like, you know, that like the lesson that you um saw that I did for cycle coach school about you know, the way that we talk to children about what's happened to them, yeah, and how that kind of links to, you know, your attachment style and your nervous system style and um and then how that relates to the whole life.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I was just like and I still am.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't get boring for me because I think there's so many ways which in which mental cycle awareness can improve so many areas, and I think I'm just so interested in that in as a social worker, in terms of you know, the different groups of people that um that can be supported through this work because ultimately it is about coming back to yourself and changing the relationship you have with yourself, but also with the with the world.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's it and I think I was talking to somebody earlier about that and about how there's a self diminishing uh element to that, in that you know, when you realize that you're part of something bigger, um it's it's kind of the Opposite of being stuck in your ego, which I think we often are.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I so I think there's something really um grounding and regulating about being part of something bigger.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I find that to be a huge resource for myself.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that is what um keeps me like on days like today, where I'm cycle day one, I know that ultimately this work is about something so much bigger than myself.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it does give me that resilience to show up.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I also love what you've shared about coming to terms with all of the different parts of you.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I found that to be a deep part of trauma healing as well.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I found this really beautiful marriage between menstrual cycle awareness and trauma-informed care.
• 24:31
  unknown: Yeah.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we really do need to love and accept all those parts of ourselves.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's the conditions in which our culture, our patriarchal culture, has, you know, made us believe that we have to, you know, be nice and be in that desired state you were naming, which is more of like the inner spring kind of summer energy, and how we aren't really celebrated in the wilting flower, in yeah, the the kind of bitchiness, if you will.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Then there is so much power in in that.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've come to really enjoy that that energy.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just using it this week to like kind of ruffle some feathers for some things that weren't happening, you know.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, hi, excuse me, like, why isn't this getting taken care of?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Being that kind of um thread or not thread, excuse me, the um the thorn in the roads.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, yeah, I love that.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: And how you can, yeah, and I think that I mean, this is you know, pretty big talk, but that you know, if we want to change the world, we need more women in their power, and then we need more women in their autumnal lutile perimenopausal.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, power.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's shift gears a little bit.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Let's kind of focus more a little bit more on the menarch work.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious why you think that is so important for young girls to be educated, to be informed, to be held in these really what I believe to be pivotal moments in our lives.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a great question.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and actually I think it does link to what we were just saying in terms of the menstrual shame, if you know if menstrual shame disconnects us from our bodies and from our intuition and from our power, um, then being able to change that narrative and challenge that the stigma and the taboo, then the only way of doing that really is to start with children and young people.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think there's that whole thing about, you know, that that that's echoed in the cycles of nature that that the the way things are tended to when they when they start, when you plant those seeds, impacts on the way that they grow and develop and how on that on their life cycle.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel um it's a kind of natural time to start having those conversations and um yeah, set setting the tone for the generation that we of of children and young people that we want to raise who who are free of menstrual shame and who are connected and in their own bodies.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, what a gift, right?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I can't, yeah, it's like it's the biggest privilege ever to hang out with these young people.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do that in like I run some girls' groups for kind of pre-secondary school kids who are like you know, nine to twelve-ish.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's fascinating.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: But also more recently, I've been working in secondary schools um with young people, and yeah, like I learned so much from them.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and on the one hand, I feel really hugely inspired and hopeful, and um that that it's such an honor and a privilege to be with these young people who who want to who want to change things, who are like really motivated and and and like the both and piece.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel really sad and frustrated and angry that more hasn't changed.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: And when you think of, you know, I think about when I was a young person 50 million years ago, um, not that much has changed, Riva.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, in terms of the menstrual shame piece.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are things that have changed, but not enough really, given the time frame.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: But so so whilst that like frustrates me and disappoints me, it also fuels my fire.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, absolutely.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what are are some of the common questions or misconceptions um that these young girls have?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so interesting.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: The stuff that comes up with the younger ones, that there's there's a lot of kind of anxiety about starting and a lot of fear around the pain, the kind of inevitable that what they see as like the inevitable pain and discomfort.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and um and I think that's really interesting because I think that can often be trans transmitted down from their mums, their nans, their you know, because if they've had that experience of really tr challenging, challenging, yeah, like painful and tricky periods, yeah, then it's normalized.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's one of the things is is the that that comes up is the fear and anxiety around that.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and and the other thing for for for kids before they've started is um oh my gosh, what if I start bleeding at school?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big theme.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: And who will I tell?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: And what if they don't believe me?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or what you know, there's a big, big anxiety that comes up a lot.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think when you get to older kids, um, the thing that I'm seeing quite a lot at the moment is the fear and anxiety around how other other young people, particularly male young people, respond.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, I've got a group of girls I'm working with in a local comp at the moment and as as menstrual ambassadors, in order to try and change the stigma and the taboo in this school, and which in itself is awesome.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a few of them who are like, We're we're only involved in this if if we're not going to be named.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I've said, okay, so same, you know, help help me understand that a bit more.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately it's that the boys in their year will take the mic.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, but then on the other side of that, I've got another group in a different school.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really interesting, kind of looking at comparing and trying to work out what that's all about because obviously there's the kind of over culture, and then there's the family culture, right?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's school culture.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it there's lots of influences and impacts that that these young people are being, you know, influenced by.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, because another group of girls that I've got are like, yeah, brilliant.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna we're gonna put our names all up on the board, calling ourselves the flow fairies.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a real mixed bag, but I think that the that the experience of menstrual shame is endemic.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so interesting to me that that you know that the the non-menstruators are inevitably perpetuating that.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that in a you know, I have to really extend compassion and think it's not these young boys' fault that they they don't understand it, and this is this is a nervous system response because they're overwhelmed and feeling um, you know, out of the loop.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so the we what do you do in that situation?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: You take the mick because you don't really understand it, rather than getting curious and saying, Interesting, how can we help you with this?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because actually, when I'd done some work with younger boys in a primary school, um, like year five and six boys, there was a little bit of giggling going on and a little bit of trying to get me to talk about sex because they hadn't had the sex chat yet.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, they were like they were so mature and so inquisitive and curious.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: I love that age.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: They really are, yeah.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, you know, I do know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right around like um, I think like what I've seen second, third grade is when they start getting very aware and self-conscious of how they're perceived by their peers.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I think that's a massive part of it.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's really important when we're thinking about mental education, is is at what age we start to do that and how crucial I think it is to get to kids before they get to secondary school, particularly young boys.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because if you can start earlier, might there be less anxiety and fear as they get into some of those older ages because it is more normalized as it should be, because it's literally the process that creates life.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Every single person on this planet came out of the womb of a woman.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And this is how it works.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: I know the divine, the divine, yeah.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, that you're all the product of a healthy menstrual cycle, boys.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I but and I'm I'm really aware of that actually.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: I know you didn't necessarily ask about this, but I'm just really and maybe maybe it'll answer a different question, but I'm I'm really aware of how you know that there's lots more energy and effort and time and resources going into supporting girls and menstruators and people with periods.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's awesome.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, in terms of supporting young men, in that in terms of their rites of passage, in terms of their coming of age, um, you know, and I know that they don't have they don't bleed.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in a sense, that that it's different.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I I've got a a young boy who is nine, gonna be ten soon, and I was thinking, gosh, would I have a ceremony for him?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: And at what point can I do that?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really interesting to me to think about how we don't do that and how we don't socialize boys in that same way and the consequences of that really.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, wow, that's a whole because and it's it's an important topic that I do think needs to be discussed because yes, there there is um an epidemic with with men as well right now, um, just with anxiety and and depression and this sense of um not feeling fulfilled and and purposeful in life.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's it's important too.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that the menstrual cycle awareness somehow they're they're connected in a way.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: I it's hard to articulate the why behind that right now.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but for me, I feel like if we can all be attuned to this sort of cyclical wisdom, this greater intelligence that is mirrored in the natural world that is reflected, I mean, because everything is cyclical, right?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Our breath is cyclical, our circadian rhythm is cyclical, everything is always moving through these cycles.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: So when we can all become attuned to that, how might the entire conscious collective field begin to change?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: I would so love that.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think that should be, I mean, I think that should be on national curriculums rather than polynomial equations.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm with you.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm with you.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Cyclical awareness, yeah, yeah.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what have been some of the changes that you've you've seen through the groups that you've been working with?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe how long have you been working with these groups, or if there's ones in the past that you worked with for an extended period of time?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, yeah, I'm just thinking about the girls' group actually.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a couple, but one I've been working with for coming up to a year, and um I've seen some real shifts in terms of their confidence and ability to feel that they can talk about anything and ask any questions.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, the other thing that's been really lovely to observe is um how they interact with each other because we always sit in circle.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a higglery-piggity circle because they can't keep still.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of yeah, they're being able to um be responsible for their feelings and and want to share how they feel about something, but also hold other people and and kind of respect and um some just lovely, gorgeous moments in in those groups amongst the glorious chaos.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: When you know, when a girl will share something and somebody will say, gosh, like how did that make you feel?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Just to honor and yeah, I mean, it doesn't happen all the time, a lot of the time they're sharing for each other.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: But but I've seen I've seen a real shift in that and um yeah, just aware of the kind of power of being in circle, really, and how almost immediately, I mean, I guess this is something that I've learned really in terms of but but I've just been surprised at how quickly children and young people s uh feel safe to share in circle.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's you know, almost like it's almost like there was some sacred magic in the circle.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, who knew?
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I've I've I've noticed that.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think I think I think that's the thing that I've been most surprised about away, or that I've I've observed is the speed of which people feel comfortable in that circle to share.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's beautiful.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's I think that's an important.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think maybe nowadays it's a skill, but maybe it didn't used to be a skill.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it was something that we just did that was ingrained in our culture, and it's something that we've gotten away from.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so now we are having to help people remember how to be in community like that, where someone can share and where you can allow yourself to be seen, to be heard, and then to be able to give that back to someone else too.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that's what we all need.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: We all need to be seen, heard, and understood.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think you know, I had I I I haven't really I've had a bit of experience of of certainly being in circle as an adult, but not necessarily facilitating circles.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: I've facilitated lots of workshops, kind of, you know, online and stuff, but just the process of of of yeah, you're right, of of of remembering and reconnecting to that kind of ancient mode.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it was some I heard on Red School somebody say that when you put a circle around something, it just automatically makes it sacred.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um helpful helpful trick.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm I'm curious, how can we create safer spaces for young people either getting ready to menstruate or who are just starting to, whether it's in schools or in the home, and also like in relationships too, friendships and relationships with peers.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a good question, and actually something that I'm just really aware of at the moment, around how fundamental it is to be aware of and to um kind of examine and explore where your own I was gonna say like prejudices, and you know, I think the kind of unconscious bias that we have, making that making that more conscious in terms of trying to work out where the shame is coming from and work out where it's kind of leached in, because I feel like certainly in schools, there's some wonderful teachers and educators doing incredible work, but there's also a lot of people who have their own shame that they're unintentionally transmitting to children and young people, and I hear stories of this often, and it's an inevitable thing.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess the the first bit of the question is that you have to do your own work, and of course that's not like we've done it now.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: As we know, stops it's an ongoing thing, but I think that in order to in order to create those safe spaces for children and young people, you have to have safety in yourself.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, she said it.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Did it, yeah.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, in a sense, it's so obvious, isn't it?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's what we talk about all the time, but I think it's the theory and the practice is so different.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, the whole like, you know, you knew I was gonna talk about nervous systems, didn't you?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: But like the the whole tending to and befriending your own nervous system is is absolutely crucial.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um and being able to be in that safe and connected place.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I've I've seen it happen where I've not been there, because I'm a human, and I've tried to facilitate um spaces for children and young people, and you can just sense that it's there's an offness.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think that's that's the really crucial piece.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think yeah, I mean it it it's the ripples, isn't it, in terms of that intergenerational piece as well, because I think that that ideally we would all do our red thread work too, and kind of identify, you know, the intergen intergenerational trauma and how that's passed and passed down our mother line and the impact that that has.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think, particularly as parents, you know, that's like really important.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and to and the other bit, I guess, that's just come to me that I think is also really crucial is making it fun.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: That links to the shame piece because you can't experience shame when you're laughing.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's true, and so it's one of the things that I say to children and young people is like we have a giggle code which is we can have a laugh, but at nobody else's expense, you know.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is really, really important, actually.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think in terms of challenging that shame, um, yeah, you have to be in your own body and safe in yourself, but also not take yourself too seriously.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and be able to have a laugh.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I really like that.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's important to be able to um, yeah, you have to do your own work to be able to really hold that place of safety.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that I see a lot in the schools that I've that I'm in, and um I've seen exactly what you've named.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can feel it in the classroom, I can see it in the behavior when the teacher is not present and attuned and and creating that safe place within themselves.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I wish people more understood that more.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I feel like that should be part of our really basic education too.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um we'll get there one day.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, I really believe in like the ripple effect that the the work that you are doing, the work that I'm doing, like that that will create.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, maybe we won't be alive to to really see the the full impact of of what it does because we don't we don't really know um these these small shifts that seem small in the moment, how how they ripple out into the course of someone's life.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you're right.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you get little glimpses of that sometimes, don't you?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then you think, oh, wow.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it is the ripples.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that's a brilliant.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: I love that analogy about the ripples.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've I've been using that one a lot lately.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what role, I know we've talked about this before, do ritual storytelling and cultural practices play in helping young people embrace this transition.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's beautiful.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think the ritual piece is about you know, ceremonializing and making something sacred but but being being bringing presents to it.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and again it it connects you into that kind of ancient inner wisdom and knowledge that we've forgotten that's been colonized and um patriarchized.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a word.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, that it's been rashed out of us.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's that piece.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I guess it's the personalization of that as well.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: If we can bring ritual in, um it's about celebrating the uniqueness of that person as well.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than this is what we do.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: You get a bo you get a packet of pads and you get, if you're lucky, a book a book on how to you know it's it it a one size fits all approach just is not good enough for this something this big.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think yeah the transitions the how we deal and manage with manage transitions is so linked to our attachment style and our attachment history.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you know those of us who've been fortunate enough to have secure attachments I think generally find transitions easier.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: But for those of us who haven't had that experience I think that ritual um and kind of ceremonializing that transition can be particularly important.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen you know seen that in social work quite a lot um in terms of kind of um like therapeutic reparenting and how to help children navigate transitions in a different way.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think storytelling can be a huge part of that as well.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: The narrative piece in terms of you know children children love grown ups telling them stories particularly if they involve something that they did wrong.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: So like kids love it.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: They just hang on to that and those stories they incorporate in terms of their own narrative and their internal working models and how they they're just sponges and they just suck all of that up.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: So you know if you're able to tell a story to your child about when you started your period you'll be amazed at how they'll remember that because it's significant.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I think storytelling can be really powerful as a way of um normalizing transitions but also um yeah making them seem less scary and problematic.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Wow I love that I had never thought about stories in that way.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Of course I understand their their meaning and their significance and their importance and that was such an interesting perspective that you've brought and the piece you've said about um the transitions being linked to attachment I found that I wrote that one down I was like whoa I felt little opening up in my brain because I had never thought about it that way either and I know that that was something that I kind of explored with my menarch work.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I did wind up doing a little ceremony a ritual yeah with the sister and it was it was really beautiful and and it was kind of more spontaneous.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: I remember go building up to the moment you had sent over an excerpt from a book and I forget which book it was.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah yeah uh her blood is gold.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and it it really showed all of the different ways yes and I remember that being like oh okay like this is for me and this is for what works for me.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: There is no right or wrong way to to honor this moment.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so that really took the pressure off and I was able to organically kind of create something uh really beautiful so thank you for for naming all of that really powerful well yeah and thanks for sharing that story because I remember you telling me about it at the time and just thinking oh that the it just sounded so beautiful and I think that's the thing that there's no kind of like blueprint for the way that we manage these rites of passage because we've kind of forgotten.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah we have which in a way is really difficult frustrating but at the same time you have the creative you have you've got a creative license to to do what you feel.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you know I I know lots of young people who aren't interested in a ceremony at all.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Don't just don't even bother but then some people who who and I've done some private manifest ceremonies for people and they've been really powerful and a really powerful way of um doing that intergenerational healing because the mums are able to share the story of their start but also then share a blessing for their child in terms of what they wish for them.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's so special I love that I mean I guess it's like you said it's personal right so um you know we may not want to project our own like what what we think someone should be doing and I find that so so powerful and so beautiful and and maybe if we didn't honor and ritualize it more maybe young girls would want ceremonies because I feel like culturally that's not something that is really fully embraced in in the modern world whereas if you go to indigenous communities like ceremony is just a regular part of life.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah literally and if you think about there's there's other funny things like you know prom has become I mean I know in the States that's been a big thing for a while but in the UK we didn't have proms.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh interesting prom is like like my daughter is talking about her prom dress I'm like when is that she's like in a couple of years I'm like I think we need to wait for that but but again that that that's the ceremony that's a ceremony isn't it yeah it is it is yeah I never thought that's a culturally kind of accepted one.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah interesting well let's see here I know we're slowly approaching the hour so we'll yeah kind of start working our way to a close and I want to start talking a little bit more about um not to um say that this is the right way but if there was a way that that you could create if you could redesign the way our culture introduces menstruation what would that look like for you I love that it's such a brilliant question.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: These questions are awesome by the way Reba um I think my the first thing that came to my head and so I'm gonna share that because that's my instinct is about talking to really young kids and just changing the way that we do that that you know not being anxious or nervous about it and having that kind of psycholiteracy and that openness and that period you know that period positivity um in homes as as kind of standard you know in the same way as kids learn to brush their teeth that you would teach kids about how you would manage menstrual products.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah in a very I think I think kids aren't kids don't experience shame when they're that young no because they haven't been conditioned by society yet I know and it's tragic in so many ways isn't it um but so I think yeah talking about it young in a when they're much younger I think is is massive um and and opening that conversation up to non-menstruators you know I think that that is fundamental and like you said you know supporting non-menstruators to know that they're cyclical too you know that they just don't have the menstrual cycle but they have all the others and that we're all cyclical and and I think that can be a really level that's a real leveler.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah so it sounds like um education starting young yeah yeah it's definitely been a threat on this show a lot of our guests have really um felt strongly about the power of education and I think one of our well I don't think I remember one of our guests um said education is liberation and then we've also heard education is medicine.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: I love both those things yeah I think I think it's so true and and I also think that the education system is struggling and that you know adding something else on the list for teachers to oh if you could challenge menstrual shame too please as well is encouraging add that to your list yeah so I do think that's why it's really important to have a collaborative approach.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah yeah it takes a village right yeah and we can't just put it all on the teachers because you're absolutely right they are already carrying um and being asked to do so much and I see that every day too I always try to be really compassionate and understanding um I think like last week they had to do some tests in the middle of our class and is it ideal?
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: No and I know you probably got someone down your back trying to get those tests done so go ahead and get your tests done and we'll make it work for today.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're just coming back our our uh discussion was was interrupted there for a moment and Anna do you want to tell us what just happened?
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: So the internet suddenly went euphroes and I thought oh my gosh is this me and went to check and my 13 year old had unplugged the router in order to plug in the Hoover.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I go in and she's in her school uniform with her headphones in and I said what have you done you've I'm just in the middle I'm on the internet and I'm doing a podcast and she was like oh sorry and gave me a bit of jude um because yeah didn't think we needed the router at that moment and and I admittedly she's doing the hoovering for money.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not just making her do that but I mean you know I might I don't think it's quite a sackable offense but yeah sorry.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay it it happens and um although I do not have children at this point I I understand the the the funny moments that happen that are just so they're so innocent yeah yeah yeah yeah she's like what and the irony is that I asked her dad before she came home I said can you just make sure that um when Ella gets back you tell her that I'm doing a podcast tomorrow and so not to come in.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah so she she didn't do that just unplugged me lesson goodness um well I I really believe that um supporting and um and being gentle and and patient and compassionate and understanding with our little ones is it's sacred it's um it's sacred and it's a really big act of service that I think we can carry out for generations to come.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the way you feel about working with little ones yeah a hundred percent a hundred percent and yeah it's a gift it's a gift it's hilarious and sometimes infuriating yeah um but ultimately yeah I agree I agree and um what an honor and a privilege to be in that role yeah it it really is it's something that I don't take lightly and it doesn't sound like you take it lightly either no it is it's it's fun it's it's key to it all isn't it yeah it is I mean that is that is our future and if we really want to see some of these stigmas and these um cultural values shifted and changed that's that's where we have to go to it reminds me of this quote and I forget where I heard it but it's like you know we're down here and we're we're pulling people out of the river but eventually it at some point we have to go upstream and stop people from even falling in the river to begin with.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's so I love that analogy and do you know what it's making me think it's make it making me think of um this conversation I was having with my little boy recently which I think kind of sums up the conversation nicely in terms of thinking about how you know we learn loads from kids but also about how um the how important it is to get to make sure that they've got the right values because we were going we were on holiday in the summer and we went um to France and we were coming off the ferry there's big fences and in in the UK at the moment there's all sorts of ludicrous policy shift and there's loads of anxiety and anger and horrendous racism against asylum seekers and refugees so we were having this whole conversation about it and trying to get him to understand you know which at nine he's like what and I was saying you know people are risking their lives and putting their families on boats to try and escape and to come here and I said to him what would you do then if you were in charge and he said you know what would you do with the with asylum seekers who arrive in this country and he said well I'd make them a cup of tea give them an English breakfast and give them a hug and I thought you know what like job done if I die tomorrow and then I think he should be running the country to be honest because then I said well what where where do you think they should live um you know because people like I said loads of people are really worried and getting cross about where where you know where are we gonna put asylum seekers and he said well he was a flash he said well we just put them in Buckingham Palace because there's enough space and they've got nice gardens to walk around I was like oh my gosh talk about like out of the mouth of babes have a tea and a hug I mean he's like duh easy done yeah I nearly I nearly messaged Keystama uh our son say I think I've got an idea well my son has got an idea yeah so I think that yeah I I think you're right but that kind of brings it full circle doesn't it that like kids kids kids know that often they just know you know yeah they really do and I think again because it's you know what we've already named here but they haven't been conditioned in the ways that adults have at that point and yeah there's something so innocent and so pure about children that I think we can all learn a lot from.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I a hundred percent agree with you although I'm not sure if I'm gonna learn anything from Ella unplugging the root I don't know about that one maybe just uh yeah a practice of patience yeah I think you're right actually and being able to laugh yes yes and bring in that lightness yeah which is something that I try to do a lot with kids too are those moments just lightening it up a little bit and making it playful yeah I love that beautiful well Hannah if people would like to follow more of your journey and and your work that you're doing how can people do that?
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah they I have a website which is womwisdom.uk and you can find me on Instagram which is at womb underscore underscore wisdom um I tend to be there less at the moment actually because I find it a bit uncomfortable but yeah email me um and the email is on my website but yeah and I'd love to chat about anything to do with cycles beautiful yeah thanks so much for your time today Hannah this has been really lovely very uh resourcing for me to start the day to spend this time with you and and have this conversation and to talk about the work that is so meaningful to both of us yeah thank you it's been a joy I really thank you for inviting me.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: Pleasure