Latest / LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships / #92: Rethinking Your Adult Child’s Trauma and Mental Health | Is Therapy Culture Keeping Them Stuck?

Transcript

#92: Rethinking Your Adult Child’s Trauma and Mental Health | Is Therapy Culture Keeping Them Stuck? · LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships

0:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm Sherry Jonas, and this is Live, the podcast for parents with older kids in their 20s and 30s who are struggling.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: Each week we talk about the most important topics in raising adult children, in building better relationships, and helping them to overcome their personal, social, and developmental challenges that are getting in the way of them launching into adulthood.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: Today, my guest is Dr.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: Richard Blake.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: He's a psychologist with a PhD, a researcher, a breathwork expert, and an author whose work challenges some of the assumptions we've come to accept about mental health, anxiety, and therapy.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: What I found so interesting about Richard is his willingness to question the mental health culture itself.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: We're going to talk about whether some forms of therapy may actually be making us more fragile and whether we've taken the wrong approach to understanding mental health.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: I personally found Richard's approach to managing anxiety a breath of fresh air.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: So let's begin.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Hi, Richard.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: Hi, Charlie.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: How's it going?
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Good, thank you.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining me here on launch.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: Your take on such important topics like trauma, therapy culture, mental health, and anxiety, just to name a few, are so refreshingly different, which is why I've been really looking forward to this conversation.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you for having me.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: So before we jump in, I'd love you to tell us why you do what you do and what brought you to this field of work.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Like what has your motivation been?
1:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, it's it's my life story, really, you know, struggling with mental health issues as a teenager and and young adult, uh, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, OCD, insomnia, suicide attempts, you know, plenty of things.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: And um I started studying therapy myself.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, I started a master's in psychotherapy, and part way through the course, I I started to see people like Thomas Sass and other sort of critics of therapy, therapists themselves and psychiatrists themselves who were saying, uh, you know, I think therapy and therapy culture is is steering itself into the wrong direction.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: And at first I was resistant to those ideas.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: I was like, no, therapy works for everyone.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: And if it doesn't work, they're just not trying hard enough.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: And then I would see, you know, there's an Australian study of like 48% of men drop out of therapy within six sessions, and um, yeah, my my response would be like, oh, stupid men, men, men are to blame here.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: But then I was like, Well, actually, is that really fair to blame uh the person rather than the treatment?
2:56
SPEAKER_01: And then I started seeing other things like why would people drop out?
3:00
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people would say to me, uh, you know, that's cool that you're a therapist, you know, I or you're studying to become a therapist.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: I tried therapy and it wasn't for me, it didn't do anything for me.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: And I again I would just be like, Oh, you probably just did the wrong modality.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: Did you do CBT?
3:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that one's the worst.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, don't do that one.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Do you should try this other one?
3:17
SPEAKER_01: And then they'll be like, Oh, I did try that one and it didn't work either.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, No, you something wrong with you.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh and then I started to look at um, you know, uh the replication crisis and publication bias.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: And there's this big study by Kim Pim Kuyper, where it was like, you know, this sort of the meta-analysis standard is like therapy works for anxiety for about 48% of people, but then about 49% of people relapse after that.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: And then when you take out publication bias, the efficacy rate goes down to about 20 to 30 percent.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: So I was just like, I just kept on feeling like I was fighting against the current here.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, therapy works, therapy good, everyone needs therapy.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: And just the more and more I read into the research and the deeper I got, I was just like, I can't keep doing this, I can't keep lying to myself and to other people about what the research really shows.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: So that's when I went, um, I was also studying to become a breath worker, a conscious connected breath worker.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: And and in that, I was seeing like amazing results.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: It it really transformed my life along with other like plant medicines.
4:18
SPEAKER_01: And I was working with clients and they were having you know wow effects.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: They would come out, and so the amount of time someone would come out and just say wow, and then next week it'd be like, I've felt so much better since our other session, and their symptom reduction would last.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: And I was working for a charity in the UK called Duty to Care during the pandemic, and we were giving free mental health services to staff of the NHS, the National Health Service.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: And I'd get calls from doctors, psychiatrists, nutritionists, all you know, uh admin people all working for the NHS, and they'd be like, I've heard about this breathwork thing, I'm kind of interested in doing it, I understand it's free.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, what's the evidence base for it?
4:59
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Well, there's a kind of a pilot study from 1993 that with six people, it was kind of good, but they didn't do a follow-up, and then there was another study here, but you know, it wasn't it published, it was just someone's dissertation.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: And they would just, you know, effectively hang up the phone, just be like, thanks.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: And I couldn't give breathwork away.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I was like, right, I'm gonna quit my master's in psychotherapy and I'm gonna go do a research PhD in psychology and test whether or not breathwork really does work because so many therapies I find, you know, coaching, all this stuff, it's like the therapist themselves thinks it's working because people say it's working, but that could be a placebo, that could be just the person being nice to them, it could be all these other things, it could be just the expectation of benefit.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, I've really got to test this, I've got to you do a controlled study.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I did.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: I did the largest ever randomized controlled trial on conscious connected breath work and got my PhD, and that was published in the Journal of Affective Disorders, sort of the the highest impact uh factor of any uh published study on um on conscious connected breath work.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: And since then I've yeah, I still I still teach breath work, I still work on a teacher training program called Breath Guru, I still go to academic conferences and talk about breath work, but I've also online come back to this whole therapy culture thing of like, why does mental health keep getting worse despite us having more awareness, more treatment, more therapy culture, more therapy language.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: Everywhere you go, therapy is there, but yet the mental illness stats keep getting worse.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, that's what I've been uh more prominent on Instagram speaking about.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, your belief is that the therapy culture is making our society more fragile.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: I love that perspective.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: I want I let's talk about this because you when you and I last spoke, you said that that we are having the worst mental health crisis in history in spite of what's going on.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: So enlighten our listener with that.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: Tell us why you think that's going on.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's multifactorial, and there are a lot of sort of comforting half-truths of like it's just social media, it's just this, it's generational trauma, it's all these things.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: But um, I don't think it is all those things.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: I definitely think social media is a big factor.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: I think that's arguably the biggest factor.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I also think one of the reasons it is a fact, it's not just social media on it on its own, it's what's social media doing.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: It's advertising the therapy culture messages that make everyone or a lot of people worse off.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: It's making people more adversarial, it's it's raising standards of parenting to an impossible standard where everyone now thinks they were abused or neglected when they were having normal standards of parenting.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: Also, those messages, the messages of do you do you five signs you have trauma, five signs you are abused, five signs you have generational trauma, five signs your partner is a narcissist, five signs you have you're living with a boundary cross.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: So all these things make people hyper-vigilant.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: And hyper-vigilance is a symptom of mental illness.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: So that's what that's that's one way that social media is making things worse by accelerating the miss messages from therapy culture.
8:10
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about following the wrong type of therapy.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: That was something that really resonated with me because many people, I think, have heard of Adler or Freud, but they don't really know what the difference is and where we might have gone off on the wrong track.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about that for a second.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, Freud, um, people say, you know, Freud is is beproven, but he's still hugely at the core of therapy culture.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, every movie is like, you know, what happened to you when you were a child?
8:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, what did you do, did you have an oral fixation?
8:42
SPEAKER_01: Like there's still so much like of these sort of half-truths that come from Freud.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: And do you know how many research studies Freud did?
8:49
SPEAKER_01: And of course, the answer is zero.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: And you know, his sample size was like 10 people he worked with.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: So um he did it, he did a great like service in sort of getting mental health services out there.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, we used to really suffer from stigma in mental illness.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm a huge beneficiary of that.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, 30 years ago, I wouldn't have been able to come on a podcast and say I had depression, anxiety, all these things without people judging me pretty harshly.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I used to get judged pretty harshly as a teenager.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: I would get um people being like saying nasty things about me because I was depressed.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: Now you don't get that, but it's kind of gone too far the other way, um, in that um, yeah, mental illness has kind of become a badge of honour rather than um, you know, an ill an illness to be recovered from.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, going to Freud versus Adler.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: So I did this reel that yeah, it's kind of went crazy, turned my life upside down because it got so many views and um comments and emails and things.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: But it's basically saying, you know, what if the mental health crisis exists because we followed Freud instead of Adler?
9:53
SPEAKER_01: Freud was more focused on your childhood, how your childhood shaped you, how um your, yeah, all these all these random things like oral fixation and eedipole complexes that never really panned out to be in uh real things in in research, whereas Adler was more like, well, what's happening to you right now?
10:12
SPEAKER_01: Your past matters, it shaped you to an extent, but what matters more is your relationships, your thoughts, your habits, your sense of meaning, your direction in life.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: And um I think we've gone too much into the what happened to you framing, framing of mental illness.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: Like, uh, and this comes on to sort of the trauma stuff that I write about.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: I think we've we've really jumped the shark with trauma.
10:39
SPEAKER_01: Firstly, it's important to say PTSD is a real thing, and it is a you know, it used to be people saying, Oh no, you're just malingering or faking.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: Like, no, it is a real thing, it has real symptoms, but those symptoms are quite defined and they're quite acute, you know, that you need to have, um, according to the DSM, the diagnostic statistical manual, you need to have a few things.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: Like, you need to have uh flashbacks, you need to have like active avoidance of the event or thinking about the event, and other things like hypervigilance and things like that.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: And you need to have them all sort of together at the same time.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: You can't just be like, oh, you know, when I was 14, someone made fun of me and I think about that now.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: That's trauma.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: Like that's not trauma.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't get flashbacks, I don't get intrusive thoughts.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: And those those symptoms need to sort of need to be an onset that's that's within a few months.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: Like the idea that, you know, when I was 14, I got made fun of for having man boobs, which I did, uh, and then when I'm 25, I develop an eating disorder.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: Like, no, those two probably aren't linked.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, like if I had PTSD at that time, it would have come on within that first year.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: The idea that you can repress and suppress trauma for decades is um another one of therapy culture's greatest um examples.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: Like it comes from this these two school teachers uh who wrote a book in in 1987 basically saying uh you're you suppress trauma and you repress it when it's when it's when it's bad.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: And that's uh yeah, that the way we know that is because if you struggle in the future, you know, you struggle in the present and you don't have it, you can't think of anything that happened, that's signs that you have repressed trauma.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, trauma, you can't stop thinking about it.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: Like that is one of the key definitions of something to be PTSD.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: It's like you can't repress it, you can't escape it, it follows you everywhere you go.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: And so here this is another myth that yeah, Freud came up with and then got reinforced by these school two school teachers who were not psychologists, psychotherapists, etc.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: They just kind of made this thing up and and people loved it, and and it's been going for for decades.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: I love where you're going with the whole trauma thing.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there is a now a kind of um you heard of the phrase maxing, right?
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Looks maxing, height maxing, all these things is the you know, this sort of new trend of like you're optimizing for this specific thing, like you know, trying to optimize your looks to you know, get more girls, optimize your height to be more attractive.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think there's now a also like trauma maxing is basically inflating how bad your past was to get benefits, i.e., like you know, Eric Cartman did this, uh, or South Park did a great episode where Eric Cartman gets a job in an ice cream parlor and he just goes home and his friends like, what are you doing going home?
13:16
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Oh yeah, young people can just take mental health days now and no one can say anything about it.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: That's basically what it's become.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: It's like, yes, mental health is real, we have to say that, and some people really suffer and they deserve to be taken seriously, but there's a lot of people, especially dark triad, you know, you find this more in dark triad personalities, they are abusing that kindness uh by taking advantage of it.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: And um, the another sort of key Freud Adler thing, going back to that, is the most replicated form of treatment with the highest uh largest effect size is phobia for phobias and it's exposure therapy, right?
13:58
SPEAKER_01: Exposing yourself to the stressor, right?
14:02
SPEAKER_01: Increasing that stressor more and more until you get over that phobia.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: What therapy culture encourages is avoidance.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: Avoid the things that you you find difficult.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: You find it difficult to call someone on the mo on a mobile phone, which I hear young people do, which I used to find scary when I was 10 or 11 years old.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: The way I got over that was my parents forced me to make those phone calls because they're like, I'm not doing it for you.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: If you want to make a phone call, make a phone call.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: And over time I know I know no longer have a phobia of or a nervousness about making phone calls.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: It's the same, like uh we have this validation problem in that therapists are told to validate a client's feelings no matter what.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: So here's how that that goes wrong: a client has a fear of dogs.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, the therapist says, Oh, I understand why you're scared of dogs.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Dogs are scary, they have teeth and they can hurt and things like that.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: You should do it, yeah, stay away from dogs for the rest of your life.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: Right.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: Then people just, you know, go into their rooms, they game and they're never exposed to that that that fear.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: Exposure therapy is I understand why you're afraid of dogs, but most dogs are friendly.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: Why don't we find a dog that we know to be friendly and ask the owner if we can get close to it?
15:12
SPEAKER_01: Then next week we can ask if we if it will sniff our feet.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: Then next week we can see if we can pet it.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: Over time, you get over that fear, you get over that anxiety.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: And I did have quite a uh a funny argument with a an MD.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: He's called the Anxiety MD.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: Funny that he's called the anxiety MD.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: You know, this is part of the problem is the more people that are anxious, the more clients he has.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: But he was saying to me when I was talking about trauma, um, he was saying, I have a client who was bitten by a dog, and now he has a phobia of dogs.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: That shows trauma is real and trauma causes all these things.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: They've actually done a specific study on dog phobias, and they found 50% of the people with the phobia had been bitten by a dog.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: 50% had never been bitten by dogs, right?
15:58
SPEAKER_01: 50% of people have fears, like irrational fears uh of dogs, despite never having a bad thing, bad accident.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: And that is where the trauma thing comes in, is like it's the explanation for everything.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, trauma explains phobia.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: But people can have phobia of snakes and have never seen a snake in their life.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: Like, what's going on there?
16:16
SPEAKER_01: Phobia is developed for other reasons rather than just trauma.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: And so um, going back to the weapon and the shield thing, there is again this sort of bias if you want to talk about parents.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, if you have any issues, it must be because of your parents.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: Your parents are the reason for your mental illnesses, and they're the but then they're not also not the reason for any of your successes.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: Like they can say, oh, you know, the reason I have insomnia is because um uh my parents used to argue at night and I used to listen into them.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: But then they don't say, Oh, the reason I'm really good at my job is because my parents didn't do much for me.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, they they they they let me fail, you know, they they they let me uh develop resilience on my own.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Parents take all the blame and get none of the credit from for it from the younger generations, and um I think genetics is a really big thing that comes into it.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: It's like um most mental illnesses have a vastly genetic component to them, especially personality disorders.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: So personality disorders have like up to an 80% uh heritability related to them.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: So people are going, I have borderline personality disorder because my mum didn't validate me.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, you probably would have had that personality disorder whether or not you had the best mum in the world or the worst mum in the world.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: Anxiety and depression is like 40 to 60 percent heritable.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: There is a huge genetic component to it, and in in many cases, people would have depression with the best parents and the worst parents, but parents get 100% of the blame with therapy culture.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: With parents, it's if I'm struggling in life, you know, the the uh what do they call them, boomerang kids and the failure to launch kids, the reason I've had a failure to launch is because my parents did either did too much or did too little.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: It's like the reason I'm uh I didn't do it is because oh, you know, I was neglected.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: And then the next child is that, oh, the reason I I'm still in my parents' basement is because I was helicopter.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, those are both opposite ends of the spectrum, but they end up in the same way.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: Here's a really interesting study.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: The Jim twins.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, so the Jim twins uh were in this Minnesota study.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: They were separated at birth.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh, they lived about like 50 miles away from each other, and then they met for the first time when they were like 39 in this study.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: And they uh were both called Jim.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: They both married and divorced a woman called Susan.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: They both drove a white car that was exactly the same.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: They both worked in the fire department, they both built a white bench around the tree at their front of their house.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: They both smoke um like uh Marlborough red cigarettes.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: They've never met, and yet they were almost identical in personality.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: And the this whole idea of like you can fix your personality if you just talk about your childhood is just completely blown out of the water when they look at twin studies.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: And same with like um accents, you know.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: I have an English accent, I live in the US, my kids are not going to have an English accent, they're gonna have an American accent.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: If my kids were completely shaped by me, they would speak like me, but they don't.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: They're raised by the culture, and parents play a small part in that, you know, a a significant part, but nowhere near as much as therapy culture makes you want to think.
19:25
SPEAKER_01: And hence parents are getting blamed for things that they did they they had no control over.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's something that I want to address that you said that people don't have trauma.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Clarify, I'm not saying no one has trauma.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: No, I understand what you're saying.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: I I what I'm really concerned about is the people who, like I said, it's obvious when someone has trauma, right?
19:45
SPEAKER_01: You can see it in their eyes.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: They are changed right after the event within that year.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: The idea that you can have a trauma when you're 10 years old and it surfaces when you're 35 is really, really like stretching the definition of trauma.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: And this idea that trauma in childhood or childhood adversity causes mental illness, abuse, and chronic illness is really uh tenuous.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: So the that the link there.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, that saying of hurt people, hurt people.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's the idea that you know, if someone abuses their child, it was because they were abused themselves.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: They tested this with prospective rather than retrospective studies.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: So in retrospective studies, they go to people, okay, you you've abused your child.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: Did you get abused?
20:28
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Yeah, definitely.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: Always they always say yes.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: But then when they when they follow people from childhood, when they they follow like court documents, hospital records, police reports of children who are abused into adulthood, there is no link between their abuse and whether or not they abuse in adulthood.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: So people who are abused in childhood were no more likely to go on to abuse people in adulthood.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: So basically, people are kind of born abusers, like that's part of their personality structure.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: Most of our personality is heritable.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: So whether or not you get abused doesn't dictate whether or not you go on to be an abuser.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: I did the same study with chronic illness.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, uh, when the body says no, Gabor Mate's book was all about, oh, if you have a chronic illness and you can't explain it, it's probably because you had trauma in in your childhood.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: So there's the kind of like unfalsifiable thing uh that comes into trauma.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, if something's wrong with you now, then something must have happened to you back then.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Can't remember anything now, you repress that trauma.
21:27
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's this unfalsifiable thing that sort of just breaks any uh any critical thinking.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: And they did the same thing, they did prospective studies versus retrospective studies.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: When they ask people in uh who in retrospective studies, did you have childhood adversity?
21:41
SPEAKER_01: They always say yes.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: When they go to uh the the court records, the police records in the cases where abuse was so bad that it can't be masked, because this is one of the things people say is like, oh yeah, a lot of abuse that you know gets gets swept under the cracks.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, this was abuse that was so bad it can't be swept under the cracks because the kid To go to hospital, the police were there.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: So in the most severe cases of abuse, there was no link to chronic illness in adulthood.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Same thing with mental illness, like the same thing of like ad adverse childhood experiences correlate with uh mental illness in adulthood.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: Again, prospective studies show almost no increased link between childhood adversity and adult mental illness.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: So like this idea that you're depressed when you're 35 is because was because you know your dad um you know hit you once when you were seven years old.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: There's no link between that.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: It comes into that sort of um scale, like sustained abuse, sustained beatings for like no good reason slightly correlates with mental illness in adulthood.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: But you know, a a slap from your dad, one adverse childhood experience does not correlate with uh with mental illness in adulthood.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: And that's where I think you know the trauma thing has gone so wrong.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: It's become this catch-all explanation for any kind of dissatisfaction you have with life.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that must be because of trauma.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: So talk about Elizabeth's Loftus study, fake memories.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, the memories is a really big one.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh I just heard a news a news story that kind of validates this, and then I also talk about the Loftus study.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, Grenfell Tower, do you hear about that?
23:21
SPEAKER_01: It was this uh like council estate in London, this big tower that caught on fire, and um lots of people died.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: And there was this one story, this sort of miracle story of um someone dropped a baby from like the 12th floor and someone caught it, and it was reported in the newspapers, and they had six eyewitnesses who all said they saw it, and then like physicists got involved and they were like, that that's not possible.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: Like to drop a baby from that height, it would have definitely died.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's there's no way this happened.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: And then they dug into it a little bit deeper, and it was just like several stories conflated into one.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: There was no baby dropped from that.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: Someone like saw someone grabbing a baby, and then someone like had a baby on the top, and basically it became like a prediction error.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: People saw, you know, running around, they saw someone with a baby, they're like, Oh, that person might throw that person.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh, look, there's someone who's holding a baby, like they've caught it.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that must be that thing.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: Six eyewitnesses, six, and and front page news on uh in like the sun, you know, the largest papers in the UK reporting this miracle that didn't happen.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, so the Elizabeth Loftus study is um a very famous one, a very controversial one in 1995.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: Um they did the Lost in the Mall study, is what it's called.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: So they brought in participants and they told them three truce things that happened to them, and then one lie.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: And the lie was that they got lost in the mall when they were a kid, and then they were very scared and they were uh found by a stranger.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: And they made sure that that memory didn't happen.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: They spoke to relatives before to check that you know it wasn't a real memory.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: And they found that they could insert that memory into about 34% of the participants, and and not just like them just being like, Yeah, sure, you know, whatever, I'll I'll agree to that.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: The people, their bodies reacted as if they were remembering it.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: They had heart rate monitors and they were they they were activated in the same way as someone who was really telling the truth.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, some people I did this video and lots of lots of people stitched me saying, no, this is nonsense.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: Like um, you can't insert trauma, you can't insert somatic memories because they did this follow-up study.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: And basically, yeah, they did this follow-up study where they they did the same kind of thing, but they this time they said they had it, their child had an enema and it was really embarrassing and it was really uncomfortable, and they couldn't insert that memory into people.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: And then and then they were like, see, that proves you can't you can't insert abusive memories.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: But then the story continues, they tried with something else.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: They tried with you got caught, uh, your finger got caught in a mouse trap, and it was really, really painful.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: And people did remember that.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: So it was like, you can insert physical memories, it's just you can't insert things that are not believable.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: So that person had uh the people in that study who had the enema thing, they'd never had an enema, and so they had no understanding of what an enema would feel like.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: But it's much more easy to imagine your finger being trapped like I'm doing it right now with this headphone clip.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: I can I can understand if I clipped that with a mousetrap, how much more that would hurt.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: And this study was so controversial that they replicated it in 2023, and uh they found even even greater results.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: It was like they could insert the memory in 40% of people.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, one of the kind of key predictors of that was like the authority.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: When it comes from an authority, i.e.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: a psychotherapist, a psychiatrist, a researcher, people are far more likely to believe things.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: And uh, yeah, there's a very famous case of this happening right now in the UK.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: So do you remember Madeline McCann, uh sort of abducted child from Britain uh on holiday in Portugal?
26:55
SPEAKER_01: There's all sorts of yeah, you know, long-running story for decades now.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: But this Polish girl out of nowhere started harassing the McCann parents, saying, I'm Madeline, I I'm this is I'm your daughter.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: And they were they were refusing us, being like, No, you're not our daughter, this is not you.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: This Polish girl, who's like in her 20s now, took the the McCanns to court.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, no, they they took there there was a court battle, basically.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: I don't know who took who took to court, but basically, this girl was so convinced she was Madeline McCann that she she was willing to go to court about it.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: How did she get develop that memory?
27:33
SPEAKER_01: A hypnosis session.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: She did a hypnosis session with a therapist and they uh unveiled these memories.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: This person, you know, this woman was like uncomfortable in her life and you know not doing very well, had some mental health issues, and and and decided that the the reason for that is because she was abducted when she was a child, and she believes this wholeheartedly.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: But the DNA and the courts show no, this is not uh real memory, you're not Madeline McCann.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: This is this is all fake memories.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: But yet, children are struggling more than ever, and I think that is because of the comfort crisis.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: Because when I I went to boarding school, right, bullying was a huge thing, it was a rite of passage.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: You would get beaten by the older boys, you would get you would have to like run the gauntlet, literally.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: You would have to run down the corridors where people would have put pool cues and pillows and they would smash you, and that's what the older kids would do for fun.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: And then when you were older, you got to do that to other kids.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: Um but there were kids that that broke.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: There was one kid who like had a complete breakdown, couldn't come back to school for like a year, was actually absolutely terrified.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: But I think the rest of the kids, it made them tougher, it made them able to handle resilience, it made them able to handle um yeah, you know, adversity and being made fun of and being away from your parents and emotion regulation and physical threat, all the things that we we all go through in life.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: And now kids to protect the you know, the small handful of kids who who don't make it through that, we basically fragilized the whole of society in that you know no one has to face any challenges, and so the first challenge they have in life, they crumble.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: To me, it's like do we just is it a utilitarian or is it a Kantian approach?
29:14
SPEAKER_01: Like, is it the greatest good for the greatest number, or is it everyone has to be treated the same?
29:19
SPEAKER_01: Because the bullying harmed one kid in my whole year, does that mean we should stop the resilience building for the other 200 kids in my year?
29:28
SPEAKER_01: Some people will say, yeah, we should, you know, doing harm is the most important thing.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: We should get rid of any kind of challenge because we should save that one kid.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Whereas other people will say, well, unfortunately, we, you know, if we if we tailor life in the environment just to protect that one kid, we're gonna spoil the whole the whole generation.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, humans need stress, okay?
29:50
SPEAKER_01: We can't survive without it.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: Take astronauts into zero gravity environment and their bones and muscles start to waste away because the stress of gravity is not there to encourage the body to maintain that.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: If we take away all stress, we wither away.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: Basically, our will withers away.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I'm such a big fan of things like well, do just doing hard things, like ice bars and sauna and CrossFit workouts and and getting into uncomfortable situations.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh, that is what builds happiness and meaning and purpose.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: We all need to be shaken up a little bit.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: I I've done things my whole life that I was afraid of doing, but I knew I always had that.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: What's the worst that can happen?
30:32
SPEAKER_00: That was my mentality.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: What is the worst that's gonna happen?
30:35
SPEAKER_00: So someone's not gonna like me.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not gonna go on a second date, so I won't get the job, so no one will listen to this podcast.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: What's the worst that can happen?
30:44
SPEAKER_00: If you live your life like that, then you actually go, you know what?
30:47
SPEAKER_00: It's not gonna kill me.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: It's not the end of the world.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: And when my son was and my both my kids were little and they came home and they told me that somebody hurt their feelings, I said, you put on your I don't give a shit shield and you go to school every single day because the world is going to be mean.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: And what are you gonna do?
31:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, you're not gonna live, you're not gonna, you're not gonna cope, you're not gonna survive.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: Not everyone's gonna love you like I love you.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: So, anyways, off that uh soapbox.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: No, I I I agree.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: I guess it becomes a sort of um a question of sort of degree.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: Like I have a a story from a friend who um went to school with a kid who had a stutter, you know, stammer, and he was in the normal class and he developed this stammer, and they they brought in a special needs teacher from him for him, and he he had you know this one-to-one teacher with him the whole time, and it got worse.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: So they put him in a special needs class with other kids with um with with learning disabilities, and it got worse, so they put him in a special needs school where they specialized in stammers, and it got worse.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: And my my friend didn't see this guy for about 20 years, and then he's he was walking down the street and he's this shout which like, Hey John, how's it going?
31:55
SPEAKER_01: What are you doing?
31:56
SPEAKER_01: And my friend's like, Whoa, you didn't you didn't stammer at all?
31:58
SPEAKER_01: What happened there?
31:59
SPEAKER_01: And he was like, Yeah, I wanted to join the army and they told me to cut that shit out, or I I couldn't join, so I did.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: So I think there is a kind of like, you know, with there's a hormetic curve, right?
32:12
SPEAKER_01: So the hormetic curve is is what defines that you know, what makes ice bath and going to the gym good.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: Like a little bit of cold is good, you know, the curve goes up, you start to respond to to the cold in an ice bath, but then there comes a point where you get hypothermia and you die, right?
32:28
SPEAKER_01: The the the curve starts to tip back down.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: So there's like an amount of stress that is appropriate, and everyone has different sort of tolerance levels for where that stress is good and where it starts to become negative.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think it it's kind of like a we get stuck in black and white thinking of like we need to accommodate, we need to um make life supremely comfortable for everyone, and or we make everything really hard for everyone and bullying is good.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: It's like it's not it's not either of those things.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: It's like there are things, there are stresses that are good and manageable and tolerable and are proportionate, and there are things that go too far, you know, sustained physical abuse, sustained emotional abuse.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's what what's changed, I think, in the trauma conversation is like trauma, like you said, is like it used to be extreme events.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: So it was like you know, if there's a scale of of an event like rape and seeing you know bombs go off in war, that was PTSD.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: It was it was difficult events that are the far end of the extra the extreme scale, this the flaw of what now gets defined as trauma has been lowered so much to being like someone hurt my feelings, someone had a different different opinion to me, and it traumatized me.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: That's where things have gone too far.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: It's like, yes, we got we want to stop rape and physical abuse, right?
33:53
SPEAKER_01: And it's good to hear different opinions, right?
33:57
SPEAKER_01: It's good, it helps you to to develop tolerance, different opinions, and to understand different people's worldview.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's the kind of difficult conversation is where do you draw that line?
34:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's talk about anxiety and and your breath work, because we touched on the conscious connected breath work that you do in anxiety.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: And I do always like to leave our listener with something uh that's more positive, something that they could actually try and do.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: I want to know more about the breath work that you do and how that impacts anxiety.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: So if you don't mind, let's talk about that for a bit.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: I think breath work is fascinating in itself.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: Like this is not just box breathing, this is not just, you know, let's calm you down.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: This is faster than normal breathing that puts you into an altered state of consciousness.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: And it puts you in an altered state so strong.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: They've done uh EEGs, brainwave scans and brain blood flow scans, and they showed that this breath work changes your brain waves and your cerebral hemodynamics, the blood flow in your brain, to the same extent as a moderate dose of psilocybin mushrooms.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: So people have mystical experiences.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: They've now studied this.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh, a friend of mine just published a study showing that people during conscious connective breathwork are having mystical experiences, feelings of oceanic boundlessness, uh, conversations with God or gods or spirits, conversations with their ancestors, um, seeing visions during this breath work.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, it used to be before, you know, I have just been to the biggest breathwork conference at uh uh Max Planck Institute in Germany, where it was the keynote speaker there, where they had all these breathwork researchers from around the world, and one of them actually tested like, okay, yes, it's cool that people are having mystical experiences, but but so what?
35:41
SPEAKER_01: Does that improve mental health?
35:44
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it does.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: This study shows that the the the greater the intensity of the mystical experience, the greater the reduction in mental health symptoms afterwards.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: And that was what I found in my study as well.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: So I uh conducted this randomized control trial.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: We did this breath work online via Zoom, we had uh 109 participants doing weekly sessions with me um in a group.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh, they were like 90 minutes each, and we tested their anxiety before.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: So it was people with like um, yeah, it was a survey, but it was people with clinical levels of anxiety, and we found a large effect size.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: So um we had significant, statistically significant reductions in anxiety and a large effect size.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: So it uh it seems like it works.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh my my clients uh obviously every practitioner thinks their modality is the best.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: My clients seem to love it.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: People get real measurable results uh in reductions in anxiety from from doing these uh these breath work sessions.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: Can you like uh give me an example or I I want to learn more about it?
36:51
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so it is really potent.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: So you know, to to elicit an altered state in someone, obviously a lot is changing in the blood and the and the brain and things like that.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: So it's not something I can just go, okay, everyone start doing this right now.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: You need waivers, you need insurance.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh there's a lot of contraindications like seizure disorders, glaucoma, severe mental health issues.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, it's it's a type of faster than normal breathing.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: So you would you do it lying down, you want it in a kind of like meditative space where you're not going to be interrupted.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, you definitely need a guide because, as I say, lots of things can happen.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, and um, yeah, you there's a big problem in that like people are doing breath work with with no training.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: The first session I ever went to it was like this um it was a yoga instructor slash real estate agent slash actor who'd been to a session and he was like, I'm gonna do this for everyone, and people were having seizures and cramping, running out of the room crying, and it was an absolute disaster.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, it is it is really potent, uh, but it that you know that's kind of kind of the point, is like, you know, there are treatments with side effects and treatments that don't work, right?
37:59
SPEAKER_01: This there's uh Dr.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Mukaji's saying, like it's it's not something I could just do for your your podcast listeners right now.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious about ayahuasca, but I would never do it because I don't like the whole like what happens that like I'm losing I've lost control.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: So it's not that type of transformation, is it?
38:18
SPEAKER_00: That this is it similar.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: It's similar, yeah.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: It's similar.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not to that same extent.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: The the difference with ayahuasca is you drink that medicine and you're on that roller coaster for for you know four to eight to twelve hours.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's with breath work.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: You just you can just close your mouth and you can you can gain that, you know, come back in you know a matter of minutes.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: No, I love it.
38:39
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: So it's far more controllable.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Um and and that's you know, I I do think ayahuasca is is really an amazing treatment and and is potentially life-saving for a lot of people.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I kind of think of it as like going for surgery.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: Like I've done a lot of ayahuasca.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: I used to have a lot of issues.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: I needed to go and do something really difficult.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: Breath work, I think, is amazing because not as potent as the ayahuasca, obviously, but it's so accessible.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, anyone can do it.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: You can do it, I can do a Zoom session with you um from anywhere in the world.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, you are altered afterwards for a few hours, like people are definitely more sensitive.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: But if you really had to, you could go you could go back to work.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: And you know, if the you know there was a crisis or something, you could get your your your stuff together and and and handle that.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: Whereas with ayahuasca, yeah, a lot of people are just all vomiting and spending hours in the toilet.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: I think I'm gonna I think I'm gonna do the uh the breath work.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna reach out to you afterwards.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm very curious curious about that.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: We are wrapping up, and again, a couple of more positive um aspects that I want to touch on is gratitude, the benefits of gratitude and the benefits of daily conversations, especially face-to-face.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: Let's let's tell our listener how important gratitude and daily conversations are.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hugely important.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, gratitude is scientifically proven to help people's mood.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Not only does it just make you feel good in the moment, but with neuroplasticity, you you change the way you look at the world.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: Instead of looking around being like, I don't like this, I don't like this, I don't like that, I wish that was different.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: You start to look for things that you actually like and you enjoy, and you've it makes you feel good over time.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: So it is a really cool practice that uh is free and um is it's just supremely easy to to implement in in your daily routine.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: And then um, yeah, uh, I just want to add about sort of locus of control.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: So locus of control, internal versus external locus of control.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: People who have an external locus of control have worse mental health.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: So people who are like, I can't change my life because my boss or the government or I'm part of this this group, they have they have they do worse because they don't believe they can change anything, and that harms their mental health.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: People with an internal locus of control have better mental health because they think I can change my circumstances.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: The reason I'm in this situation is because of the choices I've made, therefore I can make different choices and improve my situation.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: And I think gratitude kind of ties into that as well.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: How you look at the world is really important, and you know, with the news, um, they are selling you an external locus of control.
41:22
SPEAKER_01: Every side of you know the political aisle is always blaming someone else for your problems.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think the news media is really harming people's mental health and harming society um since it went from reporting the news to pushing whichever side of the argument they're on.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: And then um conversations, supremely important.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, there's this big large-scale studies now that show that um just small conversations with the postman, with your neighbour, with with the your gym coach, with the guy uh who checks you in at um at the gym, like just small, little, small touch points increase longevity, they make you live longer.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: And this comes back to that maxing thing.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, look when we mentioned looks maxing, there's another one now called Nona Maxing.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: So it's trying to maximize your life to be more like your Italian grandmother.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm not Italian, but the Italian, the little old lady, uh, you know, the world's oldest woman.
42:18
SPEAKER_01: She's been smoking since she was 12 years old.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: She drinks alcohol every day, but she has this lifestyle that means she's been happy her whole life and she's living well into her hundreds because she does these things, little bits of exercise throughout the day.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh she eats healthily, no ultra-processed food.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: Family and community are a big part of her day.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: She's not, you know, on Netflix gaming all day.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: She's out in the community chatting to people, walking around.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, they're not only they're happy, but they live longer.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: Richard, thank you so much.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: I have taken so much of your time, but I I just love what you talk about.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: And it's such a it really is refreshing.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: It's such a pleasure to hear that perspective.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: And you're not afraid to go out there and say things that people are uncomfortable with.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
43:08
SPEAKER_00: I think these are really important topics, and I hope that the listener really walks away thinking differently about these things because we have to shake things up.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: Same old, same old is not working for people.
43:21
SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for everything.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to leave your contact information um so people can follow you and uh and either love what you're saying or get all riled up, whatever.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: But um, and I'm gonna reach out to you because I do I do want to learn more about the uh this conscious connected breath work.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: Just a quick reminder that if you enjoy listening to launch, hit the follow button so you never miss an episode.
43:51
SPEAKER_00: And if you know another parent who would benefit from it, please share this with them.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: You know, I very rarely ask, but apparently leaving a rating and review is one of the best ways for launching to reach more families who are looking for answers.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.