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Sod It, Let’s Open Another Clinic - Risk, Recurring Revenue & Burnout · No Appointment Necessary

• 0:00
  Michael: So, welcome to the latest episode of No Point When Necessary.
• 0:03
  Michael: Today we've got Andy Horide.
• 0:05
  Michael: Andy is originally an osteopath, and today we're going to be talking about taking a few risks and setting up a secondary business whilst already running a clinic.
• 0:15
  Michael: So it's an interesting story, and and uh the genesis genesis of it is quite interesting as well.
• 0:20
  Michael: So, first of all, Andy, give us a little introduction, a little bit about yourself.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so my name's Andy, and I own an MSK clinic in the Southwest.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: So uh very popular area to own an MSK clinic.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: And now we've got a sort of a little bit of a side business where it is attached to the existing of being the um offering physio and physio services, but also we did diversify and create a little bit of a gym as a sort of side business as well to help help generate some of the revenue in the early days.
• 0:48
  Michael: So let's go back to because obviously I've own you for a long time now.
• 0:52
  Michael: Let's go back to right at the beginning.
• 0:55
  Michael: So you're an osteopath, you were working in a clinic, and then you decided to buy the clinic off the current owner.
• 1:01
  Michael: Talk me through that.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it was it was a long process.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the person who owned the clinic, she was a lovely lady, she was coming towards the end of her career.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and she obviously wanted to sell it to me, um, but it was on her timescale and definitely made a few mistakes in regards to not getting things in writing, but there's there was a reason she didn't want to put it in writing because she was unsure.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh eventually, because I sort of thought of setting up on my own.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: So she said, okay, I'll I'll sell it to you, but I'm gonna, I still want to work in the business um and just as an osteopath.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: So when I when she sold it to me, all great.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I got, I think, a pretty good deal on the place.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but what I found was because she was still working in the clinic, the other employ uh employees of the business, the front of house staff, it really wasn't mine at that stage, I would say.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they wanted a more listen to her because I had a lot of ideas and I came in thinking, oh great, we're gonna overhaul everything, we're gonna introduce you know new services.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I was quite surprised they actually got a lot of resistance.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, probably not unsurprising now, but at the time I was like, you know, I think, you know, why is people so uh so hesitant to want to make change?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot in our industry, I've which I found over time, people don't like change, you know.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, and probably the way I went about it was a bit gung-ho um and saying how great it was going to be, and probably a little bit in a in a way a bit of sat in the face to her, you know, sort of saying, I'm gonna make this great.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And because the business had been slowly deteriorating over time.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's been going down, and I was only working part-time in there at that point.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the way she wanted to run it, she did want a business, she just wanted um enough money to sear out.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: So um the uh for a year and a half, really, it was it was quite stressful because, like I said, I couldn't make the changes I wanted to, but I took on all the responsibility.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then unfortunately, and I really do say this unfortunately, she broke her arm outside the clinic um and she had to have surgery, but then suddenly she uh she stopped working, you know, taking all the uh the personal side out of it.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: From the business aspects, it did sort of speed things up, but we didn't have anyone to cover her.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And she did generate about a third of the revenue.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a big scramble to find people.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: But we did we did fairly good in our first year.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, increase our turnover, we doubled it, I think, in our first year.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a fantastic, it didn't keep keep going that because obviously when she dropped off, then suddenly we didn't have the staff to do it.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, go.
• 3:22
  Michael: I think I think that uh even when the owner doesn't stay and you just take over, I think you always get resistance.
• 3:29
  Michael: Um, you know, they're used to working a certain way, they're used to certain processes, and I think it's just natural for people in any industry actually to just become very defensive.
• 3:40
  Michael: This is how we used to do it, and I don't see why this newfangled way of doing things is is any better.
• 3:44
  Michael: But uh yeah, I think having there for another year and a half makes it even more difficult.
• 3:50
  Michael: In that time, in that early time, did you get anything through?
• 3:53
  Michael: Were you were you able to at least get any kind of new things in that did improve things?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it took her a bit of time.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you know about this.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: So the notion task manager, that was something because initially I came in and the other owner used to love to do everything basically just ad hoc.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, she would just remember it in her head and she really prided herself on that's how she got everything done, and she would do changing the bins, she would do everything from you know the day-to-day tasks.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So quickly I was like, well, I won't, you know, I I can't, I haven't got enough time to do all that.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I built a task management system in Notion.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the reception staff initially were a bit hesitant, but I showed them videos, this is how we do it.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And once they started to get into it and they were it once again, it was a bit of resistance, but then they were, they said, wow, this actually is really, this is really great.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And they started referring to Notion and saying, well, put it on Notion.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then I knew it was work.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then I I feel like they started getting a bit of confidence in me.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe, you know, I was coming up with some okay ideas that actually can make their life easier as well.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I really tried to frame it like that with them and saying, look, I'm doing this for you.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: So then you don't feel like it's stressful every day, it's clear set planned, all the protocols are there.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that was something that we I really prioritized in the early days.
• 5:08
  Michael: And and Notion's fantastic.
• 5:09
  Michael: And I I think you are one of the new breed of clinic owners, actually, who are always looking to innovate and always you've come up with all sorts of ideas to me before.
• 5:18
  Michael: Um, some of which were not great, some of which are are amazing.
• 5:21
  Michael: And what you've done with Notion, what you've done with no what you've done with Notion is fantastic, but there's a lot of clinic owners that still to this day, it's it's just doing the same things over and over again.
• 5:31
  Michael: And I I I said to someone earlier today, if you're still doing today what you did two years ago, then you're not running your business properly.
• 5:39
  Michael: You've got to innovate and you've got to change things.
• 5:41
  Michael: I think Notion is a good example of that because you use it quite extensively now, don't you?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pretty much it runs, I would say it's the backbone of the clinic.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm testing out slightly different softwares because sometimes with uh practitioners, notion can be, I don't want to get into all about Notion, but you know, it can be a little bit overwhelming.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there are some other softwares that may do some of the jobs that they need easier, easier.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I think yes, it's task management system, so Ps, even some of like our numbers, you know, we're starting to um test and sit and putting everything into that, generating graphs.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's fantastic, it is really, really good.
• 6:15
  Michael: Yeah.
• 6:15
  Michael: Uh I I don't think I've mentioned Airtable to you yet.
• 6:19
  Michael: Um but if you haven't looked at Airtable, uh, that's gonna waylay you for a a a good few weeks because it's fantastic and something that we're just implementing ourselves.
• 6:27
  Michael: So we first met, when was it?
• 6:29
  Michael: It was a long time ago.
• 6:30
  Michael: We you basically arranged a call to come on board as a HMDG client.
• 6:34
  Michael: And it's gotta be what, three years, four years?
• 6:36
  Michael: Yeah, maybe getting up to four.
• 6:38
  Michael: What what made you um because I still remember that call.
• 6:40
  Michael: I still remember that call.
• 6:42
  Michael: In fact, weren't you still called something osteopaths at that point?
• 6:45
  Michael: Did you change your name?
• 6:48
  Michael: Heavy tree osteopaths.
• 6:50
  Michael: Heavy tree osteopaths, that's right.
• 6:52
  Michael: So what what made you at that point think, you know what, I'm gonna pick up the phone and speak to someone about marketing?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we came to the I feel to the point where we were growing organically, but we wanted to take on new staff, and I knew that it was gonna be a struggle to get them busy quickly.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I started looking around.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was trying to remember where I first would have seen, I think it was probably on someone's website that I thought was great.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then I saw at the bottom something about HMDG.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: So then I obviously researched you guys, and then I saw that you did, you know, it was a marketing agency basically.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: So then I was like, that's what I I want for.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then as everyone is well, very similar story to other people is when I first seen you and spoke to you, you said your website shit, and you need to do you need to get rid of that.
• 7:42
  Michael: So to be clear though, it was like I don't just say it for the sake of it.
• 7:48
  Michael: Well deserved.
• 7:48
  Michael: It was well, yeah, I I I agree, it was.
• 7:52
  Michael: And then it was quite interesting because then you you you came on board, you you drank the Kool-Aid.
• 7:56
  Michael: But that brings us to you then deciding to start a new business.
• 8:01
  Michael: And actually, I think more than anything, having some advice at that point was probably more important than anything we'd done before.
• 8:08
  Michael: And and I can think of one specific reason.
• 8:10
  Michael: But when you talk me through, so you're running a clinic and the old owners left, things are going relatively well.
• 8:16
  Michael: But I think you said to me before, certainly not to the point where you were super, super happy.
• 8:21
  Michael: So, unlike most sensible, normal people who say, you know what, let's get our business working perfectly, and then I'll look at opening up a new business.
• 8:29
  Michael: Uh, you kind of went, fuck it, let's just open up a new business.
• 8:32
  Michael: Talk me through that decision-making process and what happened.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, I've definitely in the past always wanted to do away a little bit with the shackles or the guide um guardrails of osteopathy and do a little bit more with our uh with my profession in regards to looking at patients' long-term health habits, um, discussing, because we used to have a lot of really good referral network, and I used to send people to do PT and say, look, you know, you just need to just overall, you're a bit weak, you know, you just need to build up bit of resilience, just do some strength training, and your back pain should, you know, should resolve hopefully over time.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I knew I always wanted something in-house, you know, just looking at that patient experience.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: So when I was walking along the high street one day and I saw Stratton Krieber sign for the old Net West Bank as it's our a sort of prime location on the high street, it's only about 40, 50 meters away from us.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I just walked by and I just thought, oh, that'd be an interesting area for a you know, for a rehab area.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I called, I called the guy and he said, Oh yeah, I can come, I'll come meet you uh in like an hour.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I just went, oh, okay, great.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'll and I was just going to inquire, see how much it was.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even think anything else would come out of it, uh, come of it.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: And when I spoke to the guy, I realized I started pitching the idea of what I wanted the space to be.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then he said, Well, I'm the owner.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and then once again, I just then you know pitched the idea to him and he said that Costa were going for it.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And he said they've put in a uh an offer, and it was oh yeah, it was over what he was initially asking for it because he had to add some interest.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I got home and I didn't think much of it, but I he said, Look, if you if you want to, say how much you you want it for.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: So put in uh put in a bid.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, I like what what it what you uh got planned for it.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I just did quick calculation, just back a fag packet type stuff.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I just went in hold on a second.
• 10:17
  Michael: So you either you're a complete maniac or you just missed a step.
• 10:21
  Michael: Because so you you see a place on the high street and you go, fuck it, I'll buy that, or I'll lease it.
• 10:26
  Michael: That sounds a good idea.
• 10:26
  Michael: Lease it, yeah.
• 10:27
  Michael: Were you not, did you have a did you not have a pretty concrete plan of what you're gonna do with it, how you were gonna mark it, what was gonna go in there, who the what the demographic was, or were you like, this is a cool space, I'm gonna lease it and then figure that out.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm a maniac, yeah.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I went, I well, I I put in an offer, I put in an offer, and I knew I I like I said, did some calculations and um it wasn't binding at that stage.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: He said, just and I I made a bit of a cheeky offer, and then he said, um, he came back to me the next day and said, okay, we'll go for it.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was like, yeah, like you said, oh shit, I need to create a business plan and see if this is uh doable.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And this was about mid-December.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I was just about to go off scheme for Christmas.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think I I then called you um at that point and said, look, there's an opportunity here, and I don't know if I should go for it, but I think it could be an amazing opportunity.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then we had a discussion and we said, look, you know, we'll I think you advised me we'll create a one one page um sort of idea.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: We put it on the website.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was going to put it on the website, and we got quite a good uh close-knit community in Heavitree.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I feel like the community is behind us, and we put it on social media, um, you know, on the Facebook community page, Heavitree community page.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we just got a huge amount of responses.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think over the course of a few hours, we got 60 people signed up.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we did a sign-up form so they can relish your interest.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just to see if this was viable.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that made it, I was almost stressed at that, more stressed at that point because I was like, oh, I'm gonna maybe have to go forward with it because it it seems viable.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then we got in contact, someone got in contact with us from the Express and Echo, and they wanted to have a conversation with me about it and said, Oh, this sounds really interesting.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we had uh an interview and then an article article went on Devon Live, and then like four or five days later, I was walking into co-op, just the co-op just around the corner, and I realized I was on the front page, and then they had the piece about what I was planning to do, and I hadn't even signed anything at this point, so um it was like, Well, I think I'm gonna have to do it.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we got then another 80, so we had 160, 170 sign up, you know, people registering interest.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was all hands on deck then.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was just yeah.
• 12:41
  Michael: We were talking about a couple of other things as well around staffing and what it was gonna look like and so on.
• 12:46
  Michael: And I said, look, the only way you're gonna know this and and know that you you you it's worth taking the risk is is validation testing.
• 12:53
  Michael: And the easiest way to do that, put up a page, make it look really good, explain what it is you're doing, or at least the overall concept, and let's see how many people we get signed up.
• 13:02
  Michael: It's probably a no.
• 13:02
  Michael: If you get 40, 50, 60, it's probably gonna be a yes.
• 13:05
  Michael: And and I remember you you I think it was a WhatsApp a few days later, you were like, shit, we got like 70 people signed up out of nowhere, which is like absolutely you've got to do it then, right?
• 13:16
  Michael: And then, of course, with the the papers and everything else, so you it moves quite quickly after that.
• 13:20
  Michael: But I think there's a lesson to be had there, which is that I think um, and it's now a very successful business.
• 13:26
  Michael: And I and I've had this myself before where people always ask about so what was the plan?
• 13:33
  Michael: Like, what was the time frame and how did everything pan out?
• 13:36
  Michael: And I'm like, honestly, it was just accidental half of it.
• 13:40
  Michael: Yes, we we worked very hard, but we weren't sort of sitting there with a plan with everything mapped out.
• 13:46
  Michael: It was just like, well, let's give it a go.
• 13:47
  Michael: And I think a lot of businesses actually do start like that.
• 13:50
  Michael: It's like, let's just let's just give it a go and let's see what happens.
• 13:53
  Michael: And and this is why I think I read a stat somewhere that something like 80% of businesses that start up look very different in month 12 than they did in month one.
• 14:01
  Michael: You you you have to you have to pivot, you have to change things around.
• 14:04
  Michael: And so, yeah, super, super interesting.
• 14:06
  Michael: And then so you you you sign the lease and then talk to me about what the business actually is, like what is it you're doing?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: The initial concept with the signups was to make it as a gym.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not something that I wanted the overall goal to be of that space, but it was important obviously just to get the revenue through the door.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that was part of the business.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other part was an extension of our current business.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So with but with implementation of physiotherapy, also other health services.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we do um we had like a mobility and resilience.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um so this is just classes that getting older people lifting, but a bit of mixture of mobility as well.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then we really went hard on osteoporosis prevention.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So this is once again, generally people with an older, you know, a little bit older, get them to start lifting and lifting heavy.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I met a great uh physio who luckily, all this stuff seems to be luck sometimes, that lived in Devon, not too far from where we were, that was already doing this on a small scale and was really a specialist in this.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I just got introduced to him and then we just hit it off.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we really focused on that once again to create that recurring revenue.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we offer, you know, packs for those for classes and also subscription for a little bit more of uh a discount.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: But in the early days, I preferred getting the recurring revenue.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that class has just been fantastic.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've got over a hundred people go through that a week.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it was, and it's constantly it's growing like it's all it's full capacity now.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: We know we don't really want to do any more classes, just looking at revenue per hour and that if we can really map, because it's relatively a smaller space, um, it's still a really good space, um, and we made it uh very aesthetically nice.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um but obviously we want to grow our one-to-ones um to to really increase that revenue per hour.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: But but that was great.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then even once again, we got pretty lucky on on that in regards to initially it was a bit slow, but then we got featured, I think I sort of said to you, on BBC.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: So they reached out to us.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: There was a great story with one of our physio assistants doing really well and lifting in later life.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And they said they were interested and want to come and do a piece on it.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, they didn't want to talk about motion, you know, even though I, you know, was making sure to get the uh the physio, get all the branded gear in place.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it, you know, it's it's it wasn't gonna help us necessarily because it's uh it was a nationwide thing, it went on BBC good morning or something like that.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: But for that validation for the patients and saying actually what we're doing here is you know is legitimate, it's got evidence-based.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And once we sent that out to our database, suddenly, you know, we got an extra 30 sign-ups, you know, overnight.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people were like, oh, this is really serious what they're doing.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and once again, just completely through luck.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: That was um, but it was a great story, you know, that's what they focused on is the story.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And our physio assistant, she's our poster child, you know, that we use.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 16:55
  Michael: It's interesting because you it's such a different business.
• 16:58
  Michael: I mean, you you're still doing some of what you did before, but certainly, for example, I remember speaking to you about this about how you know the focus on recurring revenue, the more of that you can bring in, the less uh you are on a uh, like I said earlier, on a hamster wheel as a as a general clinic anyway, constantly have to f find new patients that and you know, I think once you build a business with recurring revenue, it just makes life so much easier.
• 17:21
  Michael: Forecast properly, you know, you don't have these kind of crazy cash flow swings up and down unless you personally do it by investing lots of money, money into things.
• 17:30
  Michael: But um, it definitely is a is a very different business.
• 17:34
  Michael: Do you here's a bit of a question Do you enjoy running that business more than the MSK business?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's parts of it I enjoy more, but I mean now, because when we've rebranded and we've combined pretty much you know everything now, so it all looks the same from a you know a patient perspective.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something I realized in the early days, even though we separated them, just because it was such an unknown to try to protect a little bit our existing business.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciated that to build a foundation of two businesses, it wasn't going to be scalable because we're having two separate accounts.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it ended up, it was gonna, it was starting to come a product of that.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: It felt like two separate businesses.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So then we were like, okay, we need to change this, and we then combine them both.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: So day to day at the moment, they don't feel they feel one and the same.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, I it was a very much the new shiny thing, and yeah, I did, I loved it.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: I loved it initially and the idea that we could scan it more.
• 18:30
  Michael: To be clear though, just something for anyone listening, I think it was really important that in the early stages you kept them separate because the risk is when you throw everything in, especially an existing business that's profitable, when you throw that into a new brand and everything else, it's it's just not a very clever way of doing it.
• 18:47
  Michael: There are there's risk taking and then there's being a bit of a moron.
• 18:50
  Michael: And I think um keeping them separate initially was was really important.
• 18:54
  Michael: And then of course you combine once you know that the other one's working and there's revenue in there.
• 18:58
  Michael: And I think there's probably uh and I don't remember and I don't know this specifically, but I'm sure there was a little bit of time where we did a bit of work to make sure that the authority from the old site moved to the new site as well, and because that's something else that yeah, that's something else that's super important that people forget.
• 19:13
  Michael: They just think you know, I run clinicx.com and now it's going to be clinicy.com and I'll just open up a new website.
• 19:19
  Michael: But actually, there's a lot of we'll call it good stuff on the old website that you need to slowly transition across.
• 19:25
  Michael: Often you need to keep both sites up for a good six months or so to kind of help you transition transition across.
• 19:31
  Michael: And we see this a lot actually with clinics who come to us who say, um, you know, we we created something new and everything's gone to crap.
• 19:38
  Michael: Why?
• 19:39
  Michael: And we're like, well, because you didn't think this through properly.
• 19:42
  Michael: So um, but it makes sense now to to put it all together.
• 19:44
  Michael: And in interestingly, I I I would say one of the fastest growing areas now uh are clinic owners who are going after that sort of recurring revenue, many of them in the going after the older generations.
• 19:57
  Michael: Um I went to visit um someone recently.
• 20:00
  Michael: Who's doing exactly the same thing, you know, opened up a new space across the road, focusing on older people.
• 20:05
  Michael: Um, and there's just such a trend now to get people who are looking to to lift, looking to stay mobile, looking to stay strong and healthy and fit.
• 20:13
  Michael: And I I do think it's the biggest growth area right now, um, both across men and women.
• 20:18
  Michael: Um, and they seem to love it, right?
• 20:20
  Michael: I I I've yet to find anyone who isn't putting on classes for that older generation who isn't oversubscribed.
• 20:26
  Michael: I mean, they literally, I'm sure you could probably put on a number of classes um and take on a ton more people if you wanted to.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, we're just um constrained by our size and the want to increase because if you had a bit more size, then you could have multiple physios while the class is, but once the classes are on, you know, we're unable to have a lot of physios working in there at that point.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think also, like for me, it was it's it's so tied in to what we do as MSK practitioners in regards to it, well, I think it should be, and almost we're doing a disservice.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: I talk to the guys about this all the time, that, you know, if we're not addressing long-term health habits, you know, in regards to lifting or getting people stronger or fitter, I almost feel like once again, like I said, we're doing a disservice to those patients, you know, especially if it's a chronic issue.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if they keep coming back with an issue and you just keep rubbing it and giving them a few exercises that you know they're not going to do for long term, I feel like we need to do a lot more.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, like being able to say to them, look, we've got a great facility that you can do one-to-one care, you know, to start with and then graduate.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like a graduation process.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Go to the class.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to stick with us forever.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: You can do this stuff in another gym, but we can help you get started.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And just seeing, yeah, some of our patients, once again, the older generation, yes, where they're in their 70s and 80s and they're deadlifting 70, 80 kilograms now, you know, and it's it's been that part has been hugely enjoyable for me as a practitioner.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they all want to come and see me because a lot of them, most of them are my patients, and they want to tell me what they're doing and how much they're lifting.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's great.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've really enjoyed that aspect.
• 21:56
  Michael: It's like the old days of CrossFit where I thought of brilliant marketing, where they uh obviously use bumpers instead of proper steel weights.
• 22:03
  Michael: And the whole concept was people will show themselves or show off, like lifting you know, 60 kilos that looks like 600 kilos, and they'll post it everywhere and they want to tell everyone how well they're doing.
• 22:12
  Michael: And I guess you're getting that sort of similar thing where they're like they're just so proud that they're lifting things that they never thought they'd be able to lift.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, literally, I walk in and they're grabbing me and say, Andy, come, can you come over look and we know watch what I'm doing?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and they're like 70, you know, you thought I'm not your parent, you know, but but but I am encouraging and I'm like, yes, amazing, well done.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just keep going.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been brilliant.
• 22:31
  Michael: That's that's very cool.
• 22:32
  Michael: Well, here's a controversial question for you.
• 22:35
  Michael: Do you think you can run a proper MSK clinic?
• 22:37
  Michael: Given what you've just said, do you think you can run a proper MSK clinic without a an SNC or gym post?
• 22:43
  Michael: Well, people do.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't know where the, once again, the the future might be going and that people, you know, expectations are more.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And well, I guess we're all knowing that, you know, I think you've had other conversations about this, that you know, a lot of MSK issues over time, you know, resolve on their own.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a lot you can do to help educate, help reassure patients was what patients are looking for in those early days.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: But to I really think move the needle for a lot of these patients, it's not, in my opinion, rocket science.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not hard stuff.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I think for me, it's a natural progression.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't feel, I wouldn't necessarily feel can I say comfortable?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think because anyone's doing anything bad, but I just because I feel so strongly about it that I, you know, using that term again, I feel like I'd be doing a disservice to my patients if I'm not offering these services that are so important for MSK health.
• 23:35
  Michael: I I was just thinking if I'd get you into a bit of a single bit at all.
• 23:41
  Michael: Um touched on something interesting there, which was something I wanted to move on to from that, which is about the future of MSK.
• 23:49
  Michael: Because I've only been in the industry for six or something years now, and I've already seen massive, massive changes.
• 23:55
  Michael: And like I said, if you're still doing today what you did two years ago, there's there's something wrong.
• 24:00
  Michael: And I think that's gonna change even more dramatically over the next few years.
• 24:03
  Michael: And I know we've spoken before about um where we see things that we've been doing, but you've now got a uh really cool space.
• 24:11
  Michael: You are doing lots of things that many, many clinics aren't.
• 24:15
  Michael: But I think that there's still a lot more to do and a lot more opportunity.
• 24:19
  Michael: So where do you see the future going over the next five years, let's say, within this industry?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're already starting to see it a lot more clinics offering diagnostic, you know, ultrasound.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're really interested eventually, it's a you know, long-term plan, getting DEXTA scans.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people, you know, want to see metrics, they want to see numbers.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we use a lot of Valve as well.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Vald's been fantastic.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Another recommendation by you guys, you know, and and it has been great.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there's a lot of implementation, how to do it properly and training, but patients absolutely love, even if they don't really understand.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we try to educate them a bit on it.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's to say, look, you know, these are just numbers, not to worry about it if it is a bit low, but it's what you can do about it.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And people love what we've realized, seeing that before and after.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I wouldn't be surprised if time goes on that those sorts of things start creeping in, whether it's other ways to track other bits of diagnostic, because you know, DEXA scans are great because they also measure lean uh muscle mass.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: So being able to see that percentage, just seeing it creep up, and then also seeing things like adipostissual fat tissue uh percentages go down and bone tissue going up.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: And patients um are really willing to, I'm quite surprised sometimes because we do refer them and they're willing to pay private, and it's they're not even battering an eye later.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: They just thought, I want to know.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And because even though it might not change necessarily what you do or the outcome, um, because you're still going to do the weight training, but they want to even see how they've progressed.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I would assume that would be um yeah, gonna be a course as the uh the industry goes on.
• 25:54
  Michael: I I think that's a big one, and and it started probably with apps like My FitnessPal, Map My Run, Strava, then we got into wearables, you know, you got the the the Apple Watch, um, and now you've got Whoop.
• 26:08
  Michael: And I think people do genuinely want to track things, they want to see the data.
• 26:12
  Michael: You said, as you said, they may not necessarily act upon it.
• 26:14
  Michael: I mean, I would be surprised if more than 10% of people with an Apple Watch actually utilize that data to uh impact or affect change in their lives.
• 26:23
  Michael: But um, oh maybe, maybe it's more than that, I don't know.
• 26:25
  Michael: That's a bit of a guess.
• 26:26
  Michael: But um, I I think people really want to see that.
• 26:29
  Michael: And whenever I've seen clinics use, it doesn't really matter whether vowel or dynamometers or whatever, they want to see progress, they love tracking things.
• 26:36
  Michael: Um, and and and scanning is another one.
• 26:38
  Michael: If if anyone hasn't heard of Neko Health, N E K O Health, go and have a have a look at it, stick it into TikTok or something.
• 26:46
  Michael: I mean, those guys are absolutely flying.
• 26:49
  Michael: I'm not suggesting that it's a great company in any way or that anyone should be doing what they're doing.
• 26:54
  Michael: That's that's another discussion.
• 26:56
  Michael: But certainly the fact that they have a two-year waiting list right now, if you want to go and get yourself scanned in a million different ways, again, talk about it being any you know a good clinical product, but but certainly you have a two-year waiting list that tells you what patients want to see.
• 27:10
  Michael: And I think if you're using that in a uh in a really positive way to to impact the patient, whether that's education or whether that's motivating them, you know, you see it.
• 27:20
  Michael: I I I know a few clinics and a few businesses actually that are using Woob to take data out and they use that to then inform the training of the client, to inform what what behavioural changes they want to implement and so on.
• 27:33
  Michael: And I think that's a huge part of the future of healthcare.
• 27:36
  Michael: Um and that goes into health techs and then how much health tech you implement in your business.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think you know, a lot of us need the reason why you know we we want to do something, and it's got to be a strong why.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, someone has you know, they they'll smoke for ages and then they have a heart attack and then suddenly they stop smoking because their why is increased.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think you know, this is an example of that.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: That if the the number and seeing the number goes up gives them the why of why they're doing it, you know, so uh just gives them a little bit more emphasis because if they don't know, then they'll just be like the smoker, just well, I'm not too bad at the moment, you know, it's only until something goes wrong.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if yeah.
• 28:13
  Michael: Yeah, but it's also gamification.
• 28:15
  Michael: So for anyone that doesn't it's it's a very common term within the corporate world.
• 28:20
  Michael: And a good example would be if any of you are on LinkedIn.
• 28:23
  Michael: Like you go on LinkedIn, you set up an account and you put in your name and that's it.
• 28:26
  Michael: And then it gives you, and I don't know if it still does this, but it will give you something similar where it says earn your next star by putting up your photo, and you go, Oh, well, I want to earn a star.
• 28:34
  Michael: And it's like become an expert by filling in your profile.
• 28:38
  Michael: So you're gamifying it, you're encouraging people to do it.
• 28:42
  Michael: You see, if you've got a Google um account and you leave Google reviews, it will say, only 3,000 more reviews till you become a local professional, whatever it is they they say.
• 28:50
  Michael: And I think the more that you gamify things, the more people will invest in it, but will be emotionally invested and also continue.
• 28:58
  Michael: And and I think gamification within rehab is sorely missing.
• 29:01
  Michael: And I know some people that really do a brilliant job with that.
• 29:05
  Michael: Uh, and you can obviously do it, you know, the the olden days, I show my age here, but I remember PT is always using bleep tests, right?
• 29:11
  Michael: You do your or your bleep test, whatever it was called, and and you're like, oh my god, like it kills you, but you want to be able to do more, right?
• 29:18
  Michael: Uh crossfit again, going back to that.
• 29:20
  Michael: Again, very much gamification.
• 29:22
  Michael: You put your scores on the board and you see where you are, and so on.
• 29:25
  Michael: And I think that's sadly missing from from generally from NMS care.
• 29:29
  Michael: I know they do it a lot more in your in euro, actually, but I think that's one area where you can definitely keep patients where they want to see progress over time.
• 29:38
  Michael: Uh so I think it's a really interesting thing.
• 29:40
  Michael: I'd I'd I'd be interested to to see what how else, and uh obviously not being clinical, I don't know how else you could gamify rehab in some way.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, representation for it.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: We something we talk about a lot.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: We were just talking about the other day, you know, doing a well, we we weren't gonna brand it as a leaderboard, but a way that we can try to you know put up achievements of some of the people say doing the osteoporosis class.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: We track everything though with what the patients do in regards to their weights they're using, you know, the amount of repetitions.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um, a lot of them, once again, I think that really helps.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they want to see those numbers going up, but there is obviously a limiting factor on that, you know, because they're not going to be able to increase their weight 10% every month, you know, it's just not cheap.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Initially, they get that big increase, but then we're trying to sort of think about okay, what's ways to keep them motivated and not just being all centered about how much weight you do, are you getting PBs?
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which is a little bit more tricky, but there are, you know, I think there's other ways you can do it.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, um doing something like a DEPSA scan could be another element of that.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's and once again, it is never never to scare the patient.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's just saying, look, here's some info, you know, here's some data, here's a data point.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we can just try to increase that.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you always have an increased risk every time you step out the door to break a bone or anything like that.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is it's just about probability and reducing risk.
• 30:56
  Michael: You know, uh the the way the Whoop does it, where it it basically you never run out, is by doing the um age or the the aging thing that they do.
• 31:06
  Michael: Have you seen it?
• 31:07
  Michael: No, I don't think so.
• 31:08
  Michael: So what they the went work is so I get my Whoop, I put it on, and it's like, you are 40 years older than your actual age.
• 31:15
  Michael: You're an unfit bastard and you're gonna die early.
• 31:18
  Michael: So you're like, oh my god, I need to make changes.
• 31:20
  Michael: And it says, you need to sleep more, you need to do more steps.
• 31:22
  Michael: So you start following those things.
• 31:24
  Michael: It measures your VO2 max.
• 31:25
  Michael: So it says, ah, now you're you you are in the bottom three percentile of people your age, and you're like, oh my god, and you see yourself going up.
• 31:32
  Michael: But it all goes towards this central score called, and I can't remember what it's bloody called, people who know will will know it.
• 31:38
  Michael: It's uh but it gives you your your rate of aging and then your overall all age.
• 31:42
  Michael: So I was 15 years older than I should have been, and by making those changes, you become 14 years older, 13 years old, 12.2 years older, 11.8, and you can kind of really see it going.
• 31:53
  Michael: But then when you hear someone like bloody Hannah, who's a fit 35-year-old, 36-year-old girl, um, she's like minus age.
• 32:00
  Michael: So she's like, Your metabolic age is like 22, and she's like, aha.
• 32:05
  Michael: And and so it's really interesting because when you use a scale like that, you can keep game gamification going forever, right?
• 32:12
  Michael: Because you can keep learning your age, and actually, then it's a case of I want to keep my age at that age.
• 32:18
  Michael: So you're not gonna, you know, you're not gonna be four years old metabolically, but the point is you get to that 22 or 25 or whatever it might might be, you want to keep it there, so then you have to work even harder to stay in that in that spot, um, which is why I think Whoop is such a clever, clever thing, and I think could be used quite dramatically within clinics.
• 32:36
  Michael: I I'd love to see more clinics using wearables, um, making that part of their rehab and part of their programs.
• 32:44
  Michael: I know, for example, that there are certain high-end gyms out there who do it.
• 32:49
  Michael: So you pay your your top-level platinum or whatever membership, you get a whoop, and then the the personal trainer will work with you on that data, which is you know, very, very clever.
• 33:00
  Michael: And I think actually makes rehab and personal training much better because you can, you know, you can't lie off your whoop, right?
• 33:05
  Michael: So they say, How many steps do you do this year this week?
• 33:07
  Michael: And then you go, Oh, with 10,000 a day.
• 33:09
  Michael: Whoops has a thousand.
• 33:11
  Michael: No, you didn't.
• 33:12
  Michael: So I think it's keeping people accountable.
• 33:14
  Michael: Yeah, yeah, maybe something.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I was gonna say, yeah, because we are less sophisticated where, you know, we we love doing you know grip strength tests and and putting that, we've got like a you know, each room's got like a chart, you know, so you see the normative data.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it is uh, and I I find it hilarious, you know, when you especially um, you know, some blokes, because you sort of say, look, you know, we just do this to see roughly where you're at, because it's correlated to overall, you know, muscle mass.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: So we do a grip.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the blokes, you just see them start like you know, winding up their shoulder, getting warmed up because you know, you've got the graph there and they want to get it so much lower.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the women seem to on generally seem to just be like, you know, just squeeze it gently and go, all right, there you go.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: And they're not really too bothered.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, some of the and we've had competitions in you know with all the staff as well, and everyone's trying to beat each other at the moment.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it it makes it fun, you know, and it's just it's about having a lot and having a conversation, you know, because you see the the patients go out and they're talking about it, you know, with reception staff say, Oh, what did you do?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and like I said, it just makes it fun.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, yeah, the idea is putting it on normative data to see where you are and trying to beat that.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, I you know, I think is is great.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: I need to yeah, look a bit more into it.
• 34:19
  Michael: The classic example is the boxing ball that that um that measures how hard you can punch, right?
• 34:24
  Michael: You never see a girl doing it, but every guy's like, Yeah, I'm gonna give kill a wrap.
• 34:28
  Michael: It's it's hilarious.
• 34:29
  Michael: In fact, we we did a little thing two years ago, physio matters when we were involved with physiomatters.
• 34:34
  Michael: We did something at the Arnolds, and one of the things was you know, those um, I don't know what it's called, where you jump and you can test how high you can jump and you spinny thing.
• 34:42
  Michael: It was like the most popular thing in the show.
• 34:44
  Michael: People loved it, they wanted to see how how high they could jump.
• 34:47
  Michael: But it's funny that the more you give people little tests and challenges, the more people really want to do it, better at it.
• 34:54
  Michael: Um, it's it's there's a lot of psychology behind that, and it's again surprising how little of that there is in MSK.
• 35:03
  Michael: And and I and hopefully with a lot of the tech that's coming out, uh you'll see a lot more of it.
• 35:08
  Michael: In fact, a little uh sneak peek.
• 35:10
  Michael: I'm gonna have someone on.
• 35:12
  Michael: I literally can't say anything right now, other than I'm gonna have someone on very shortly who is a very cool clinic owner, but very cool clinic, who has is putting together something in and around measurement and wearables.
• 35:25
  Michael: So he'll be on the podcast shortly.
• 35:27
  Michael: Um actually HMDG customers will be given you'll you'll love it.
• 35:31
  Michael: Uh they'll be given access to it out from on a beta.
• 35:35
  Michael: So yeah, keep an eye.
• 35:37
  Michael: I'm looking forward to that to seeing it.
• 35:41
  Michael: Fantastic.
• 35:41
  Michael: So everything's going fantastically.
• 35:43
  Michael: I would just for the last five minutes, uh, I'd really like to touch on something actually, if you're comfortable talking about it, because we talked about it for about an hour earlier, um, where we touched on burnout, and I was talking about how bloody burnt out I was um with with with my company.
• 36:03
  Michael: And I think it's um I think there are very few people really willing to talk about it.
• 36:07
  Michael: And I think it would be really interesting to get your take on you know what you've gone through, like some of the really bad times where you were just incredibly burnt out, which obviously doesn't help with children and everything else that that has come along during that entire period.
• 36:20
  Michael: So give me give me some some sort of yeah, a little bit of background on your burnout story.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: So this was pretty much actually, I think when um I was opening, so I had the two businesses, you know.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: I I mentioned you a little bit, my wife was opening a uh a business as well.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: So and we've got a new baby.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a lot going on, and obviously we were working evenings, weekends, and while still trying to keep the baby alive and everything else.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it just starts getting to a point where I realized, you know, I just wanted to, if I was just sat down, I'd just start sleeping.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you sort of think, I thought I could always work through these things and just keep going.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, especially, you know, you know, getting a bit older.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I really quickly realized my body couldn't keep up with it.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and I went through some bad, you know, sort of health, you know, issues.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think I said to you, you know, develop stomach ulcer.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't know what it was.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: You went back and forth to GP, they were doing scans, you know.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, at that point, because I think I was catastrophizing everything, I thought, oh, this is curtains, you know, it's gonna be cancer or something like that.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: And but it ended up being a stomach ulcer that it took me a while to recover from.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, so e start eating a lot cleaner.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I was eating really bad food.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I realized that, yeah, at that point that I had to shift priorities a little bit and try to play a little bit more of the long game.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's not what I wanted to do.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to keep powering through, keep growing, you know, at all expenses.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um that point in my life, I you know, I yeah, I thought I realized that actually I can't I can't do it.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that was um uh you know a brief overhaul, you know, I sort of simplified a lot there, but but yeah, it was difficult.
• 37:55
  Michael: Yeah, I um and massive credit to you for that, actually, because uh I went through exactly the same thing where it was just too much.
• 38:03
  Michael: And I uh last year I remember uh I started slowing my words.
• 38:07
  Michael: I genuinely uh Hannah and other people said that I was having a stroke, um, and then I couldn't remember the names of my children, and it was a it was a really, really hard time because it was just burning the candle at both ends.
• 38:18
  Michael: And um and I did manage to have a rest for five days where I just switched everything off, but then I went straight back at it.
• 38:24
  Michael: I didn't have maybe the intelligence or the control that you did to say, all right, need to make some changes.
• 38:31
  Michael: I just went back into it and carried on drinking and eating back and working, you know, 20-hour days.
• 38:37
  Michael: Um and I think it takes a lot for someone to sort of sit back and go, this can't go on, this isn't okay.
• 38:42
  Michael: Because very few people do.
• 38:43
  Michael: Most people just continue and and and make life even worse for themselves.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, without making it too dramatic, I realized that I couldn't do it for my own selfish reasons.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I because I wanted it almost for me, I wanted the business to be great probably a bit more due to ego reasons, you know, and you know, I realized actually I've I've got other people that depended on me and dependent on, you know, need me to be functioning and to be okay.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think let go a little bit of ego, I think, and and that helped me, you know, and just sort of have a bit that wake-up call.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I wasn't suggesting that, obviously.
• 39:13
  Michael: One of the things when you when you when you are burnt out, and I think there isn't a day that doesn't go by where I don't speak to a clinic owner who's burnt out, who's struggling, who's taking on too much, who's um trying to be everything to everybody, and sometimes it's you know, even just doing 10 times more for a patient than they ought to do for that patient.
• 39:32
  Michael: And I think one of the the commonalities is that they can't hand off any work, they can't delegate, and by the way, I absolutely couldn't.
• 39:39
  Michael: I still needed to look at everything that happened on a day to day basis.
• 39:43
  Michael: Were you able to do that?
• 39:45
  Michael: Was there anything there where you had a team where you could say, okay, I'm not gonna do this stuff, I'm going to give that to other people to do?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Not when we opened the second location, you know.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: I because I don't want to get too much into detail.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: I did bring on, you know, because it was very um capital intensive.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: Initially, so it was getting some of the cash.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I did, you know, we took on a bit of uh small shareholder, you know, and and you know, it's like I said, I don't want to get into details too much, but you know, it didn't work out, and I think that caused a lot more stress.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I realized, you know, a lot of it was it was down to to me.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't have, yeah, I would say a fully fledged team.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas, you know, if I said before, you know, if I probably would have built out the existing team a little bit better, planned more, you know, I was always very much enthusiastic, you know, I just got that enthusiasm and just you can do it, we'll figure it out.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that was always my sort of mantra in my brain.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think if I would have planned a lot more and thought about it, then it probably would have been a lot less stressful.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, like I said, you know, as we uh spoke about, sometimes these opportunities come up, and I believe sometimes you just got to run with it.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um if I I was prepared for a world of pain, I sort of felt like that was gonna happen.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I tried to mentally prepare myself and thought this is gonna be crazy because I had to do, you know, all the new systems, do because we had it was uh obviously a gym, we had to research all the new software.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I was going to pop into loads of different gyms, you know, and seeing what software, how they did it.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I was, you know, still trying to run the other business at the same time, still doing all the mentoring.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was, I mean, I think I would definitely do that a lot differently.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I yeah, I I would have, I would probably almost try to factor that into the cost as well by having someone that I could to pay help me with some of the admin and if we had the cash, you know, which we we would have had a runway.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I did have a runway that I could have afforded that.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that would have made everything go a lot smoother and probably got to us to the point where we we are now, you know, a lot sooner as well.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I would have done that.
• 41:36
  Michael: Yeah, and you've got you've got to take the opportunities, right?
• 41:39
  Michael: You you you have to.
• 41:40
  Michael: If you see something come up and you you're not stupidly, I always say that, you know, you've got to make some informed decisions and have a bit of data, and which you did with very valid validation testing and so on.
• 41:51
  Michael: But going back to the the the the burnout stuff, you can try and prepare yourself.
• 41:55
  Michael: I I I all the time was preparing myself.
• 41:58
  Michael: This is gonna be really bad, but I think until you really get to it, I don't think you can prepare yourself because it's always 10 times worse than you think it's gonna be.
• 42:05
  Michael: And I always say to people, until you've run a business, you have no idea.
• 42:10
  Michael: It all looks sexy from the outside, doesn't it?
• 42:12
  Michael: It's like, oh my god, look at him, he's an entrepreneur and he's got money and he does it.
• 42:15
  Michael: Oh my fucking god, no, it is the worst possible thing you could ever do.
• 42:21
  Michael: Now, you know, hopefully it works out and people can they either exit their businesses or they they they do well enough to have the business run itself a little bit a little bit more so they they're not dead by the time you know it's making profit.
• 42:32
  Michael: But it is hard and you can't prepare yourself and you often can't prepare your partner either.
• 42:38
  Michael: And and I think that's often a a big problem where they think they know that they're not gonna see you for six months more than an hour a day, but but it doesn't really hit them until it happens.
• 42:47
  Michael: Um so no, it's an interesting one, and it it's it's nice that he talks about it a little there.
• 42:51
  Michael: I don't want to go too deep into it.
• 42:52
  Michael: Maybe we do a whole session with someone on on that because I think most clinicians feel it.
• 42:57
  Michael: Most clinicians, most clinic owners, they feel it, they know it happens, and um it's there's also very little support out there, actually.
• 43:05
  Michael: Um I know Joe Turner, she's she's fantastic.
• 43:08
  Michael: I hopefully I'll get Joe on the podcast soon, actually.
• 43:10
  Michael: Um, but she's one of the leading kind of people that that talks about this and she does offer support, but there's very little out there for people.
• 43:16
  Michael: But anyway, let's let's leave it on a happy note.
• 43:18
  Michael: Everything's going well, which is fantastic.
• 43:20
  Michael: Um and it'll be really interesting to see what what the future holds.
• 43:24
  Michael: Uh what's the remind me, what's the URL of the website?
• 43:28
  Michael: Motion clinic.co.
• 43:30
  Michael: For people to go and have a look at, because it's quite cool um what you've done and how you set everything up.
• 43:34
  Michael: And um so motion clinic.co.uk, go and have a look and and see what Andy's done.
• 43:40
  Michael: Thanks very much, Andy.
• 43:41
  Michael: Really nice having you on.
• 43:42
  Michael: And um, enjoy being here.
• 43:45
  Michael: Thanks for the invite.
• 43:45
  Michael: All the best.