Latest / Love Letters to Troublemakers / E7. Your Body Knows It's Not Safe at Work

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E7. Your Body Knows It's Not Safe at Work · Love Letters to Troublemakers

0:00
To continue believing that there is no separation between the the
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work self and the whole self and that this idea that we leave our
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body, our emotions and our personal life at the door when
0:11
we badge in. It's always been fiction.
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And that fiction, you know, has cost us enormous amount of
0:18
creativity, honesty and and and and trust.
0:21
And so it's really worthwhile having these conversations.
0:33
Hi, I'm Lars Galleon. And I'm Aparna Ray, and welcome
0:37
to the Circle Back Club, the podcast for workers that are
0:40
done pretending that everything is OK.
0:43
Yeah, that's right. We are here to reimagine and
0:46
rebuild workplaces, to strengthen communities instead
0:50
of depleting them, to see your Co worker as your comrade, not
0:54
your competition, and to stand up for the dignity and care of
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all humans and this beautiful planet together.
1:01
And today we're going to go into a little bit more personal space
1:05
for our listeners and talk about what our bodies know at work.
1:11
Whether or not you are familiar with the term somatics or
1:14
embodiment or have heard the term being in your body, we all
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experience our bodies trying to tell us something.
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Sometimes it's a feeling like you're in a flow state or
1:27
connection or openness. Sometimes it's overwhelmed,
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stress or even illness. No matter what, we live with
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these signals and choose to listen to them or not.
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And for corporate workers, well, let's just say we don't really
1:44
get the opportunity to practice these skills to learn with each
1:48
other how to listen and how to create impactful things for the
1:53
world through our bodies. And so if you've been with with
1:58
us for this season so far, you know that there are real harmful
2:02
consequences of overriding our body for our health, for our
2:06
relationships to others. And so that's what we're going
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to get into today. From a personal experience.
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And before we get into it, I want to name that this episode
2:17
might feel a little bit different.
2:19
It'll probably be a little slower.
2:21
You'll be invited into some presence, and that is
2:25
intentional for you. And the invitation is just to
2:30
get curious with yourself as you listen.
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What's going on with your body as you listen to this episode?
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You might want to speed it up. You might want to turn it off.
2:39
You might be feeling like this is the greatest thing you've
2:41
ever heard and you're affirmed. Just be with yourself.
2:45
Go for the ride with us and see what happens.
2:49
And we are here with an amazing guest to help us have this
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conversation. We are so lucky to be joined by
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Giulio Brunini, who is a master somatic coach who focuses on
3:02
embodied leadership, which is all designed to help leaders
3:07
develop exactly what we're talking about, inner stability,
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awareness, presence, to lead in all of this complexity and
3:15
pressure that we exist in in corporate work.
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So we're so happy to have you here, Julio.
3:20
Thank you for being with us. Lovely to be with you, thanks
3:22
for having me. Yeah, yeah.
3:24
So should we warm up, do something a little light as we
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always do, we kind of dip our toes before we dive in.
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And so I wanted to ask you to if there is a funny or interesting
3:40
way that your body communicates to you, a silly way, whatever
3:46
comes to mind. Yeah.
3:47
And Julio? Oh, it's funny you say dip our
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toes because so when I go to bed, well, my, my brain is
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drifting off, my breath is slowing down and, and meanwhile
3:57
my toes are still down there having a full rave.
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So yeah, I think my toes are away with my day, my day's
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leftover energy. It sort of goes to die.
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And apparently they call it restless toes.
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I, I, I'd like to think of it more like my toes are sort of
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writing the diary of the day. Maybe in more in more sports.
4:22
Yeah, Restless toes. I love that.
4:26
What about you, Aparna? OK, so I know I'm about to have
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like perhaps a challenging day. Like it's for me, it's the
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restlessness is in the morning and it's when I sort of lose my
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gross motor skills and I'll notice that I'm like dropping
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things or I'll make a mess while making my coffee.
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And I'm just like jittery even before I've had my coffee.
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And that to me, you know, is a signal that like, yeah, like the
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day might be heavier, harder. I'm definitely, there's like
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some anxiety or nervousness that I'm stepping in to the day with.
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And I've started paying attention to like when I, when I
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drop a lot of spoons, and I mean literal spoons, you know, before
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8:00 AM. Yeah, it's, it's going to be a
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day. Wow, that's a solid tell.
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I think for me I my legs complain like they get achy when
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they need me to move them which feels intuitive but it's not
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just AI don't know. It's a very specific feeling
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where I get these aches and one leg will get jealous of the
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other if, you know, they don't feel like they're getting equal
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movement. And so I've learned to respond
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right away. If I get the ache, I stand up, I
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move. And it turns out I actually need
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to move a lot more than I thought I did.
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And yeah, just trying to listen to it.
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Cool, Cool. OK.
5:56
Also, Julio, I do my. I have little happy feet.
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They just you got happy feet as well.
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I feel like I'm not alone. Yeah, I it's like my.
6:05
Tiger Two, Yeah, it's called the restless leg syndrome.
6:09
Yeah, I know. Yeah.
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It's also like. Specifically toes.
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For me, though, it's not the legs.
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It's like the toes just go over themselves.
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Like they just go like you just keep on moving.
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I mean, yeah. Maybe you need to go to a dance
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party. Maybe.
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What? That's what they're asking me to
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do. It's a little bit of dance.
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That was great. So OK, let's get into it.
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This topic, I think, I think it comes to all of us on a personal
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level. And when you're listening to
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this, you're probably connecting in that way or maybe
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anticipating a specific story. We've all had a moment or
6:48
moments or everyday a moment where we go against what our
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body is trying to tell us at work.
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For me, you know, smiling and nodding, maybe with a leader
6:58
that you might not be agreeing with or going beyond your body's
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physical capacity for work, which is really confusing when
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we're in knowledge work, right? What is our physical capacity
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when our value is, you know, from the neck up?
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And I had a client who came to me because in their words, they
7:18
had waited too long to listen to their body at work.
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A new illness came into their life, forcing them to take leave
7:26
and assess what happened. And I think that's common,
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right, is when we don't listen, it ends up being a
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retrospective. And they described it as their
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body and their mind being at odds with each other.
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Which again, as I was saying in white collar work, as knowledge
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workers, that makes a lot of sense because we are just valued
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by what do we think, what do we produce?
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And for many people, we are met with these forced embodied
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awareness moments like sabbatical.
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So many people going through layoffs now.
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Maybe a strategic refresh lands you on a new team, a new job,
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whatever it may be. It just gives us space to ask,
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what was I not listening to? And a partner.
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I'm curious how this lands for you.
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Like have you had to ask yourself this question before?
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So many times you know this right?
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That in in 2024, I took a year long sabbatical and I will say
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that in the years preceding that I, every time I went to the
8:28
doctor there was a new autoimmune thing.
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You know, I got diagnosed with fibromyalgia and my arthritis
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was getting worse and I had chronic back pain.
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And at some point in 2023 at sort of this height of, of
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antagonism towards not just the E and I practitioners, but I
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think women of color at large were just, you know, getting
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beat up at work. I developed like gut health
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issues and I couldn't eat anything.
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You know, like I went through probably a six month period
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where I would have a tummy eek if I had oatmeal, if I had rice,
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if I had chicken. And I just like, you know,
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everything that I ate would give me a tummy ache and which made
9:16
me not want to eat, which then made me tired and angry and
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grumpy and not a great friend or not a great spouse.
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And I started my sabbatical and like 6 months into that, all of
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a sudden a lot of like the chronic health issues that had
9:31
kind of disappeared. I wasn't as achy and I all of a
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sudden could eat everything. And you know, now I'm a year and
9:39
a half removed from that sabbatical and a lot of those
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health issues haven't come back and it's really forced me.
9:48
It has really forced me to reckon with the professional
9:52
choices that I had made for the past decade that were making me
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so, so sick. And of course, I was still like
10:00
pushing through and you know, doing emails at 11:00 at night
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and on the weekends. And I would hear my husband talk
10:06
about me and use 2 words regularly and they're en mas and
10:10
trabajo, which in Spanish is a lot and work, you know.
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And he would, he would just always be describing me as
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somebody who was working a lot to his friends and family.
10:20
And I haven't heard him use those words in a really long
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time. Yeah, that like the personal
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again, I think we all have those like what is the pattern of my
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body that we uncover after we have some forcing mechanism of
10:33
change in our life. And I'm curious for you, Julio,
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you know, we're excited to get into your story.
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And just as an entry point for people who this language might
10:43
be completely new to them, how do you describe what we're
10:47
talking about? Somatics or listening to your
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body when you talk to white collar workers?
10:52
Yeah. Well, well, first of all, I, I,
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I start off by explaining what, what somatic coaching is about,
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because that's what I offer. And somatic coaching looks at at
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transformation through the lens of the body and soma and I often
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explain is a Greek word that loosely translates as the living
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body and its wholeness. And, and the assumption is that
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there's no distinction between the soma and so the body and the
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self and somatics. I say it can be actually seen as
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the practice of living in direct connection with our body as a
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source of as, as a source of information, as a source of
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intelligence. And so not just a as a vehicle
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that takes us for takes our brain to to the next meeting.
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And when we, when we learn to listen to our soma, it becomes,
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it becomes an, an early warning system, you know, so registering
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a difficult conversation, registering A misleading
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decision, registering burnout far before our cognate itself
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does, does that. And, and, and often also say as
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we get a tune with our soma, it really becomes like a tuning
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fork. So it resonating with what is
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aligned and, and really some somehow vibrating differently
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when, when something is off, just as as you were describing a
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partner. The other thing that I, I, I
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usually like to say when I'm in the sort of initial
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conversations around cymatics and with, with top potential
12:32
clients or those who are curious is, is refraining pressure.
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So I, I, I don't look at pressure as, as something we
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need to just manage, but but really as an opportunity to
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understand what is deeply embodied in, in, in other words,
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what, what lives in, under our skin, what lives in, in our
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tissues and our nervous system. What comes up will show up in
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those moments where pressure arrives is what lives in, in our
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tissues. And so understanding our, you
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know, our reactivity is obviously very important and
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it's the first step to possibly get to the point where we where
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we are at our best under pressure.
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And this notion to be your best under pressure is one that
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executives understand and value because, because obviously
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that's what they do. They're under pressure, you
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know, day in, day out. Can I ask you?
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You know, on paper, I think this is probably true for all three
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of us, right? Like having successful corporate
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careers, like you in particular spent a decade and 1/2 at
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Universal at Yahoo, Saatchi and Saatchi, which for people who
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are listening, the massive advertising agency was Global
13:59
Reach. And now you're doing somatic
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coaching. What?
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What made you? What made you make that, Jean?
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Yeah, well, I the the full stories actually has two parts
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and what 1 is my uncle was one of The Pioneers of bi energetic
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therapy in in Italy. And bi energetic therapy is that
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line of therapy that looks at neuroses, dysfunctions,
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disorders from the through the lens of the body.
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And I remember when I was very young, 1617, actually attending
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to some of his, you know, events and send seminars and, and being
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exposed to this different way of interpreting the body, you know,
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certainly, you know, not this thing that sort of has to
14:41
function or perform. And so I, I think that was
14:43
something that was, it is still the curiosity.
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And so when then I when then the the possibility of moving into
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coaching came along, I knew I was really there was an
14:53
orientation towards somatic coaching already in me.
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But to answer your question, what happened during my
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corporate years was that the, you know, the bodies spoke to me
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before the mind. It sort of the mind was, you
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know, wasn't really willing to listen and through panic
15:10
attacks. So, and, and that was while in
15:15
some ways I was still from the outside at least, you know,
15:19
performing well and, you know, delivering and sort of climbing
15:22
the ladder. And, and it was a signal, you
15:25
know, just the nervous system saying that the way I was living
15:30
my corporate life was, was not sustainable.
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It, it did take me another 10 years to transition to, to, to
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coaching. And I say that because I think
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it's important to understand that the, the, the body often
15:46
speaks early, then we get into some form of negotiation and
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that negotiation can last, can last many, many years.
15:55
And it didn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And and. Well, I just, I was listening to
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you and I could just feel, you know, like the hairs on my arms.
16:04
Stand up. The negotiation.
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Is so intense and so intense and you're.
16:08
Trying to rationalize. Yeah, and you know, for good
16:11
reasons. You know, there's, there's so
16:12
much at stake and you know, the identity that we take and you
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know, the, the safety and security or whatever it, it is
16:19
they that is at, at play. This moving into the unknown or,
16:23
or this idea that we had before we wanted to become, or the idea
16:27
that we somewhat inherited and so on.
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It's a bigger conversation, but there's many good, you know,
16:30
good reasons for us to be there. But the problem is that, you
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know, obviously if we wait too long, then then the body starts
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speaking louder. And then sometimes it's, it's,
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it comes out with yellow with a full alarm.
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And so rather than whispering, which it often does, it gives
16:45
you a nice big slap, you know, And so being able to listen to
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the body, being able to start that negotiation sort of early
16:52
on and possibly is, is really important.
16:55
I, I also want to say something just because of how I framed my,
16:59
my move, which is this, I want to be careful here not to tell
17:03
the story from a place of, you know, corporate is corporate bad
17:07
coaching good? Because that's not, that's not
17:09
my view at all. I mean, I believe the corporate
17:11
world is, has really enormous capacity to shape society for
17:16
the better when, when leaders at the top set the right vision
17:21
and, and build the right culture.
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And So what I was experiencing was a problem not with business,
17:26
but really with the way I was disconnecting from those
17:30
signals. And, and partly my, I believe my
17:33
work, our work is is to help leaders stay connected to those
17:37
signals so that they can build, you know, the kind of culture
17:41
that the corporate world is actually capable of.
17:43
In our last episode, we met with this incredible organizational
17:47
psychologist named Doctor Nicole Decay, and she talked to us
17:52
about the psychosocial hazards in the workplace.
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So these workplace conditions that cause harm to our bodies at
17:59
scale. And one of the points that she
18:03
brought up was the fact that the higher up you are in
18:05
corporations, the more likely you are to be burnt out.
18:09
And from her, you know, analysis, that is actually just
18:12
another way to say workplace depression, which kind of blew
18:17
me out of the water a little bit just to have that reframe.
18:22
And there seems to be an incredible amount of override
18:27
that's happening to withstand unrealistic pressure of people
18:33
in executive positions because of the way that we've designed
18:36
work to be bureaucratic. As you.
18:39
Be in a like faux meritocracy and there is so much potential
18:48
to your point of doing better for ourselves and each other
18:52
with this expanded incorporation of listening to our bodies.
18:56
And I'm, I'm really struck and interested by the fact that you
18:59
said that the body communicates first, because often times I
19:03
think in talking to people, it's, I was thinking my way
19:06
through this and then I listened to my body.
19:09
And yeah, you to your point, going from a whisper to a big
19:14
boom is, is what often pulls us through.
19:18
And I think for people who are in these really high pressure
19:21
positions, I'm curious from an embodied intelligence
19:25
perspective, what's the challenge that you're seeing
19:28
with executives? How do you reach them?
19:31
Well, you actually started to name I think there's there's a
19:34
number of challenges that the first one you already framed
19:37
somehow, which is that executives are often rewarded to
19:41
for overriding their bodies, you know, so pushing through
19:44
fatigue, suppressing fear before a big presentation, ignoring the
19:49
tightness of the chest to during a hard conversations, you know,
19:54
basically numbing themselves is is what got them promoted and
19:58
and somatics is asking them to. To unlearn a very thing that
20:02
made them successful. And so this, and often this is
20:06
really a destabilizing ask. So that's the first.
20:09
The second challenge is, is is that I could frame it like with
20:14
the protocol problem and say executives are trained to treat
20:17
time as the scarsest resource. And so the they, they approach
20:22
and Gary input looking for the whatever five step framework,
20:26
the 10 minute routine, the the clear ROI and and semantics
20:32
doesn't, doesn't really work that way.
20:34
You know, So the protocol has an end point and practices
20:38
sometimes don't like you, you could, you might be sitting with
20:41
a sensation for weeks before it actually tells you something.
20:45
And then breakthrough may be coming sort of sideways in a, in
20:48
a meeting or with a difficult conversation and not so much in
20:52
the practice. So, so part of my work is to
20:57
help leaders tolerate that open endedness and, and because
21:02
because that's where actually the growth lies.
21:05
And the third is a credibility problem.
21:08
So there's, you know, there's whatever is associated with
21:11
Wellness is often sort of filed in the from the other medication
21:15
app and then quietly dismissed. And so I, I spend a lot of
21:19
energy and time and language framing the body as a source of
21:24
intelligence and a better decision making in order to make
21:29
you better decisions. And, and rather than something
21:31
that needs to be managed, there's one more aspect which
21:36
is, which is, I think really important, which is a big
21:39
challenge. And that is that underneath,
21:43
underneath all of that embodiment often can surface
21:50
things that that are inconvenient.
21:54
You know, it's the, it's the, the leader that might need to
21:56
have a, the that, you know, avoiding the difficult
22:00
conversation with whatever, you know, Co founder for for years
22:04
or that has built a role or a future that really isn't what he
22:10
wants or she wants. And, and, and so being able to
22:15
hold that carefully and being able to stay in that
22:21
conversation is, is really one of the, the, the challenges that
22:24
that that actually can can ultimately offer what is most
22:28
precious, most most precious in in in this conversation.
22:34
There's so much there and as when you said the the
22:37
inconvenience I my, I like leaned back in my chair and
22:42
squeezed my legs and if I were to just be with that of OK, I'm
22:50
pulled back and I'm bracing. There's so much dance inside of
22:56
a corporation about the efficiency and designing around
23:02
inconvenience and we're obsessed with that.
23:05
We're obsessed with like let's design meetings differently.
23:08
Let's, you know, walk and talk. Let's change the structure of
23:11
the workplace. Like let's insert the the
23:14
mindfulness meditation app and have the quick fixes that that
23:20
is dancing around the inconvenience of vulnerability
23:25
change and actual connection that moves us towards serving
23:30
each other's best interests in the world.
23:33
So yeah. Yeah, yeah.
23:37
There's, there's so much to be said, but there's also I think a
23:42
lot of aspects that have got to do with, I want to say white
23:47
supremacy, whiteness in general in terms of how it's designed.
23:50
So, you know, but that takes us in a different place.
23:54
Maybe not to, not to today. Hey, it's always.
23:58
Here in preservation. Intellectualized.
24:00
So I appreciate you naming it because that's real.
24:03
Yeah, we're swimming in that water.
24:05
And yeah, I think a pardon like for you on your your side of the
24:08
house, you meet leaders in very specific contexts.
24:14
What has it been like for you? What's your perspective here?
24:17
There's so many things that are swirling in my mind right now.
24:19
So a couple of nights ago, Lars, you know this, I went to hear
24:24
Doctor Gabriel mates give a talk here in Seattle, and he's a
24:29
phenomenal speaker and writer and researcher.
24:32
I love him. I love him.
24:33
Yeah, he's really great. And he said something to the
24:38
effect of, you know, women have more autoimmune disorders than
24:45
men, something like 3 to 1. Vast majority of autoimmune
24:49
disorders are happening in women's bodies.
24:53
And my mind, as he said that, my mind immediately went to Oh
24:58
yeah, like all these women that I know that work in HR, so many
25:03
of them are struggling with autoimmune disorders.
25:04
And that, that is the kind of leader that I have worked with
25:08
for the, the majority of the last, you know, six or seven
25:10
years is working with people in people and culture, sort of
25:14
titles, people analytics, chief people officers.
25:18
And, and I just, I've just been sitting with that since I heard
25:24
the talk a few nights ago. Is, is there a connection
25:28
between being in a role where you're kind of squeezed between
25:32
what employees need and want and what's coming down from
25:36
executives who ultimately want profitability at all cost?
25:42
And you are the function that is responsible not for taking care
25:47
of people, but for squeezing people and rationalizing that
25:51
squeeze. And so I'm not going to say
25:54
causation, but I, it does feel like there's a core relation
25:59
there between people in these professions experiencing some
26:04
pretty intense physical manifestations of doing work
26:10
that is causing harm and knowing that the things that you're
26:14
doing are causing harm to other people and perhaps not feeling
26:18
like there is a way out of that. And it just feels hard, right?
26:28
I think like with that, with that framing, there's a part of
26:34
me that feels a lot of compassion for folks that are in
26:38
this position. Because, you know, earlier you,
26:42
you said there are lots of reasons, right?
26:45
And one of them might be this fear of losing, losing your job,
26:50
what that means financial, right?
26:51
Like the precarity that your family might experience.
26:54
And yeah, I don't have any solutions, but I do.
26:58
I do wonder if folks at work in people and culture are really
27:04
sitting with the impact of what they are being charged with.
27:09
Not, I mean, let's put what's happening to employees on one
27:12
side, right? But what is happening to
27:15
themselves? Like what's happening to their
27:17
bodies, their ability to show up as partners, as parents, as
27:23
community members when you're curing that with you.
27:26
And then of course, like having an autoimmune disease is not a
27:30
joke, right? It's not.
27:32
It's not fun to be in discomfort all day everyday.
27:50
We are all just taking a breath. So we've been talking about, you
27:53
know, kind of what's maybe not working, but surely there are a
27:58
lot of stories of when people are listening to their bodies
28:01
and are able to say no to something or yes to something
28:06
that is aligned with their values.
28:08
And I tend to really lean into data in my work.
28:14
I want I want to know the facts, but what are the facts?
28:18
And I think in this area, there is a lot of research that shows
28:22
that somatic experiencing can help restore balance to our
28:27
nervous system. And you know, it enhances the
28:32
functioning of our various brain centers.
28:35
It's responsible for more efficient stress response
28:40
recovery, right? Like reducing stress pathways.
28:44
I think for me, I will say the emotional regulation has been
28:48
huge of leading into some somatic practices on hormonal
28:52
regulation for sure. I've noticed my immune system
28:55
functioning so better. And, you know, my sample is
28:59
like, sample of two in which my husband will get like,
29:02
desperately ill and meanwhile, like, I'm, you know, like eating
29:08
2000 calories and just like skipping around all day every
29:12
day. So I know that, like, my immune
29:14
system and my digestive system is functioning And our body's
29:18
highest stakes, somatic experiencing, we also know
29:22
significantly reduces PTSD symptoms.
29:24
And in our earlier conversation with Doctor Nicole Decay, one of
29:28
the things that she said was how work is set up today results in
29:34
a lot of complex PTSD. And so I think there's a lot
29:39
here. And I am curious, as you've
29:42
transitioned from being a senior leader executive to be a somatic
29:46
coach, what changes have you witnessed with white collar
29:50
workers and leaders that you've been working with as they learn
29:54
to listen to their bodies? Yeah, well, you know many.
29:57
I'm just going to list some of them to the to the more more
30:00
visible ones. And and it's like the ability to
30:03
sit in a hard conversation without by the collapsing or
30:07
attacking the ability to take decisions because we because
30:12
we're able to feel a yes or a no with clarity and fewer reactive
30:18
emails, better sleep, better relationships at home.
30:26
Leaders often report that they stop confusing urgency with
30:33
importance. And you know, then I have, you
30:40
know, I have stories that that that in terms of like of, of, of
30:46
how that impacts, you know, what wider groups.
30:48
And this is a relatively recent story of, of a director of a ice
30:54
cream factory here in here in Turkey that was a very competent
30:59
executive, but he had temper problems and he had that caused
31:03
a lot of a lot of breakdowns in the teams.
31:05
So I got to coach him and, and fundamentally, what was
31:09
happening was just a sense that he was inheriting an idea of, of
31:13
how to be a leader that really didn't even belong to him.
31:16
And so when he was when he got to sort of tune into what, you
31:20
know, his own values and what matters to him and what he cared
31:23
about, it was this transition to become more human to, to really
31:27
care more, to connect better. I, I worked specifically with,
31:34
with archetypes in that particular case.
31:36
And knowing this, this was a a leader who was evidently in the
31:42
in the warrior thinker and say our archetypes and the
31:45
transition to a dreamer lover was really one that allowed him
31:48
to, you know, sort of just there was an access to so much that he
31:57
could understand and he could practice in and out the work
32:02
that led to substantial, you know, transformation.
32:05
And the results, you know, were, were really impactful, though
32:09
the team ended up winning best results in terms of, you know,
32:12
in terms of profitability, which is obviously one thing that they
32:15
are ultimately want to look at, But also he was elected as the
32:19
best leader in the region by his own people.
32:23
That's like, it's like it's an internal survey.
32:24
So, you know, it, it just as a way of, of seeing that they can
32:30
who exist. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's
32:34
to being able to recover that humanity can go along with
32:38
having important results and and impact.
32:41
I think that's something that doesn't get enough airtime that,
32:47
and I've experienced this with clients too, where again,
32:50
there's some big life event that's pulling them out or
32:55
similar, You know, there's a leader who needs specific type
32:58
of coaching that they are opting into or not fully opting into.
33:05
And when we, when we go into these spaces, sometimes we
33:12
think, OK, now I'm going to, now I have to completely be out of
33:16
this environment to be able to make this change in myself and
33:22
completely change every aspect of my life.
33:24
And now I'm going to be this brand new person who's doing
33:27
something, but completely new. When we can make this change in
33:31
the context of the environment that we're already in.
33:35
And it's not a sacrifice of the things that you do want to have
33:40
happen, like, you know, have your ice cream manufacturing
33:44
business be successful and, you know, have workers that are,
33:48
that are connected to the work and, and feel respected.
33:51
And I, I imagine that you are first and have, I've experienced
34:00
this of some skepticism of like, I'm going, I'm going to have to
34:05
lose these parts that are important to me.
34:07
And I don't know how do you, how do you bridge that?
34:10
Well, you know, this is really not only something that pertains
34:15
to somatic coaching. It is a generally when we enter
34:18
any, any journey of transformation, you know, when
34:22
we are aiming to, to grow, transform, change.
34:25
There's a place where there's a, you know that, that, that we
34:30
enter the in, in the uncharted waters of you know, who I'm, who
34:34
I'm becoming. I'm not yet.
34:36
So it is, it is the way I, I, I always explain this and, and
34:45
often gets understood is that we have to enter those deep waters.
34:53
You know, I usually use the metaphor of the river and I say
34:56
you, you know, you leaving the, the river bank and you want to
35:00
go to the end of the other river and, and you start walking.
35:04
And then at some point, you know, the, the waters get deep
35:08
and you can still see the, you know, the, the, the, the bank,
35:11
the river bank that you just left.
35:12
And, and, and for many, it's, it's just easy to go back.
35:16
It's easy to go back. You know, it's like I I, I know
35:18
that place and it's safe. And here I don't even know how
35:21
deep it's going to be. It's starting to feel the
35:22
current and it's and it's bully me and I and will I be able?
35:26
And I'm not, I'm not even sure if I can see the other side.
35:29
And that's the time where, yeah, that's the time where if we if
35:37
we do go back, fundamentally we just reverting to the old South.
35:40
And, and, and, and so to be able to really it, it needs to be
35:48
relevant that, you know, the sense of one becoming needs to
35:53
matter, deeply matter, because we're going to go through those
35:56
deep waters. And so to keep going, which is
36:00
the only way to then actually get to the other side.
36:02
And often I actually say, maybe you're not going to get to the
36:05
other side. Maybe you're just going to build
36:07
new skills and to understand that you're not going to muscle
36:09
through the river, you know the current, but you're going to
36:11
just allow the current to take you.
36:12
And maybe you'll then you'll find out that rather than
36:14
getting to the other side of the river, you'll, you'll end up in
36:16
an ocean. And so, and so there's a place
36:20
so, and also there's a place where you, you might even get
36:22
surprised. It's like they say, can you let
36:24
go? Can you get, can you allow the
36:27
current to take you? It's a beautiful conversation to
36:30
have and it takes new skills And because usually, usually, you
36:34
know, especially in this, in the corporate world, we're used to
36:38
muscling through, you know, and so, but I go back to this notion
36:43
of it needs to matter because there's a, there's a point where
36:47
we, we, we losing our footing, We, we feel the, the current and
36:52
it'll have a grip on us. And to be able to keep going in
36:55
whatever direction that looks that is you know, other side or
36:59
through with the with the current takes a lot of courage
37:02
and and it is it it is possible only free deeply feel this is
37:08
this matters deeply matters to to me.
37:10
I think muscling through not just at work, but I there is the
37:14
way that society is set up in the US specifically, but not
37:19
only, there's muscling through in all aspects of your life,
37:22
right? Like you muscle through
37:24
parenting and you muscle through community and you, you know, you
37:28
just yeah. And it's so easy to to justify
37:36
the muscling through. But there is also like in your
37:39
metaphor or your analogy of the river, actually, when you're not
37:44
fighting against the current, it's really nice.
37:47
It can. Float.
37:49
And you can rest. You can actually.
37:52
You can actually rest. Absolutely, yeah.
37:58
And that's it's something that is as beautiful as it sounds,
38:02
can scare a lot of people. Yeah.
38:06
Yeah, I know that fear so well. Well, this is a special episode
38:14
because we are three people who are committed to semantics in
38:20
all these different ways. And what we know, and I hope
38:23
what our listeners pick up on today, is that all of this is
38:26
practice. This isn't something that you
38:29
have or you don't have. Embodied intelligence is a skill
38:33
that we practice, just like learning to play your scales on
38:38
the piano. It's figuring out and learning
38:40
the patterns. And as corny as it sounds, the
38:45
truth is that we already have all of this inside of us.
38:49
We just need to learn how to start the conversation.
38:52
And because we are so honored to have Julia with us, we thought
38:56
that it would be supportive to offer somatic practice that
39:01
people can do at work. And I'm curious, Julia, if
39:04
there's anything that comes to mind for people who want to just
39:08
dip their toes into this. Yeah, Well, I usually all, I
39:13
mean offer the A1 minute meditation as a starting point.
39:17
So, so the way we frame meditation semantics, it says,
39:20
you know, one of our foundational practices, it helps
39:23
us cultivate the muscle of attention.
39:25
You know, horning our attention is, is a leadership skill.
39:29
So it really matters, especially in the time where it's so
39:31
dispersed and and scattered. So it's a foundational practice
39:35
and people again, you know, get come with this idea that needs
39:38
to be 15 minutes to 1/2 an hour or more and, and get discouraged
39:42
when they can't or, you know, don't find the time.
39:44
There's many excuses. And I and I always say like one
39:46
minute and I asked them to count their breaths first time with a,
39:52
with a timer so that they know one in hell 1 exhale is 1
39:56
breath. They know how many breaths is a
39:58
minute. So let's say it's 1516 breaths
40:00
so that you don't have to just breathe normally.
40:03
Not trying to do anything special.
40:05
So you know, you now know that you have 16 breaths to count for
40:09
a minute and it takes away this whole idea.
40:12
That's the time scarce. Everybody has a minute and and,
40:17
and you know, you could do many by the way, you could do many
40:21
through the day. But I actually asked him just to
40:23
do 1 to start with one before you, you know, start the day or
40:27
at the end of the day, take one minute and it's off.
40:30
And often it is really a door opener, this place where they
40:33
can get into this routine where they sort of like, OK, I'm, I'm
40:37
sitting with it and I'm actually getting through this one minute.
40:39
And then, and then often that takes them to, to build and, and
40:45
otherwise I, I, I, I also just asked to take 30 seconds before
40:48
their next meetings to feel their feet and the floor and
40:53
lengthen the exhale and, and, and scan for an area where
40:56
they're holding maybe in the jaw or the shoulders or the belly.
41:00
And don't try to, don't try to fix it.
41:02
Just just notice. That's a good start.
41:11
Beautiful. Even as you're saying that I'm
41:16
like, oh, I'm, I'm holding my breath like I did, which I do,
41:24
I, I do so much that I'll just hold my breath.
41:28
I'm just like, I'll realize that it like why?
41:30
Why can't I think, Oh, I'm not breathing?
41:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah. As we were sitting in that
41:38
silence, I was hold, I was squeezing my thumb and it was
41:43
like a anticipation, this feeling of like, should we do it
41:47
now? Will listeners do it?
41:50
I had like all of these like ifs come through and I was just
41:53
squeezing my thumb. So yeah.
41:56
And there it is. There's the practice.
41:59
How are you feeling, Julia? I was feeling about doing a one
42:04
minute meditation. We are going to take advantage
42:08
of the fact that we can do a one minute practice even on a
42:12
podcast with you right now. So for our listeners, maybe you
42:17
are mobile, maybe you're multitasking, or maybe you have
42:20
a moment to take a seat, take a SEC.
42:25
Or if you're on the go, be conscious of your breath for one
42:29
minute with us, as we're going to offer this silence as Julio
42:33
prompted us to Just count your inhale, exhale, count your
42:37
breath for one minute. Maybe this is for those who have
42:41
never, you know, meditated sit, sit at a practice just as it's
42:45
helpful to make sure that, yeah, you know, you're feeling your
42:50
your sit bones on the chair. You have an erect spine.
42:55
You're arms are resting either on the chair or on your thighs.
42:59
Your feet are uncrossed and you feel your feet on the ground.
43:04
The idea is that you are going to simply count 1 inhale, 1
43:09
exhale as one breath and breathe normally.
43:12
No, don't try to breathe in a particular way.
43:15
And then once we say we'll start you off.
43:18
And then once we say stop, just remember how many breaths you've
43:21
you've counted reading through the nose.
43:28
Let's. Begin.
43:33
OK. And that is one minute.
44:39
What? Was your count everyone?
44:42
And 16 breaths. Mine was 15.
44:45
I had 15 breaths. And in the background, Julio, I
44:49
can hear the call for prayers through your mic that are
44:53
happening. And I also, and I, and I think
44:57
because you were talking your mic mic was picking up that
45:01
other sound which might have been cancelled otherwise.
45:05
And I just found myself really deeply relaxing because it
45:09
having grown up in the Middle East, it's, it's a really
45:13
familiar sound and. What a what a nice, what a nice
45:19
coincidence picking that minute, right.
45:22
Right when the call for prayer started.
45:24
And, you know, regardless of our beliefs, there's something about
45:29
that sound that if we are present with it, it does carry
45:34
something that can, yeah, that can let us settle.
45:45
Nice. Thank you.
45:55
It's you. On each episode, we do a rapid
45:59
fire, which will be a very centered rapid, rapid fire given
46:04
our our meditation. And this is all just meant to be
46:10
playful and a different way for us to connect with this topic.
46:14
And so we have 5 prompts. Julio, I'll ask you first and
46:19
then Aparna, if you're up to follow.
46:22
Are you 2 ready to go? Yeah, sure.
46:25
It's cool. OK.
46:28
What is one thing you wish corporate workers knew about
46:31
listening to their bodies at work?
46:36
Exhaustion is data, not weakness.
46:42
Oh, I can't go after that. I would say that even if you're
46:51
not paying attention, your Co workers are.
46:54
And yeah, you don't want to be the lost to know.
47:03
Giulio What would become possible in white collar work if
47:06
we all practice embodied intelligence together?
47:09
No. Oh wow.
47:12
Yeah, we we build companies that are actually sustainable for for
47:17
the people in them and and for the world they serve.
47:24
Fewer PowerPoints, fewer Slack messages, and maybe teams would
47:30
disappear all together. OK, finish this sentence.
47:37
Our body wants us to know. That that the answer was never
47:43
only in the head. In our head.
47:49
I was going to say, our body wants us to know that it's still
47:51
attached to our hands. Oh yes, nice combo.
47:57
OK. And Julio, this is just for you,
48:01
although partner, you're welcome to tap in if you want.
48:03
What is 1 work culture value that exists in Europe that you
48:06
wish US workers had? Well, probably the idea that
48:14
REST is not a reward for productivity, it's actually the
48:18
condition, the condition for it. If you were to give one piece of
48:24
advice to help workers start listening to their bodies, what
48:27
would it be? In some ways I think I already
48:31
answered that question, but here you go.
48:33
It's before you open your laptop in the morning, take 3 breaths
48:38
and notice. Just notice 1 sensation in your
48:42
body and that's it. You're not trying to fix
48:45
anything, you're just saying hello.
48:51
OK, I can't believe we're already at the end of this hour
48:56
together. It feels kind of wild how
48:58
quickly this time has gone away. And so we end every episode with
49:04
a take away each from this conversation and one thing that
49:09
you can actually do. And Julia, you've given us so
49:13
many things that people can do as soon as they're done
49:17
listening to this podcast, right?
49:19
The one minute meditation, the the three breaths before opening
49:23
our laptop. And so maybe I'll have Lars go
49:26
first with a take away and yeah, yeah, what's the invitation?
49:32
So take away from this episode that has me really curious is
49:39
about the body communicating before the mind and the the
49:45
action that feels very similar to that is when you're at work
49:51
this week, be curious about where your attention goes with
49:56
your body. So what parts of myself am I not
50:00
listening to at work? What parts of myself do I want
50:03
to listen to at work and just get curious about where we go?
50:08
Particularly for me as someone who has some really established
50:15
moves of override or ignoring different parts of me.
50:20
Once I started to actually get curious about what those moves
50:24
are, then I could create an entry points that was genuine.
50:28
And you know, I think as you said earlier, Julio, around this
50:33
negotiation process, in order to negotiate and build that trust,
50:38
we first have to know what's going on, what's the pattern?
50:41
So get curious about where your attention goes.
50:45
One of my favorite Zen teachers in the Bay, Rev Dagan Gaither,
50:50
says what it what is it like to be me?
50:52
And I think that question is such a great one to just make it
50:56
really simple to make create that conversation with yourself.
51:00
What's it like to be me? And yeah, Julia, you gave us so
51:04
much great advice. I'm curious if there's a take
51:06
away or anything else that you want to leave our listeners
51:10
with. Well, I mean, there's a personal
51:13
take away that is really a beautiful sense of allyship
51:16
right now. It's like I'm not alone.
51:19
I obviously that happens a lot with the community I'm in the
51:24
institute, etcetera. But specifically on this, it's
51:27
nice, just it's nice to feel you, you know, feel you both and
51:31
know that from different angles. There's us and many others that
51:35
are, you know, believing that, that that the workplace can be
51:43
the workplace can be humanized. And that, and I think that, you
51:46
know, the, the overall take away is really to continue believing
51:50
that there is no separation, for example, between the, the work
51:54
self and the whole self. And that this idea that we leave
51:58
our body, our emotions and our personal life at the door we
52:01
badge in. And it's, it's, it's always been
52:04
fiction. And, and that that fiction, you
52:08
know, has cost us enormous amount of creativity, honesty
52:12
and, and, and and trust. And so it's really worth
52:15
worthwhile having these conversations now.
52:22
I'm very, very happy to have met you and I, I, yeah, grateful to
52:28
have been in this conversation together.
52:33
Thank you, we are too. My take away is Laura's when you
52:41
were saying earlier how you, you need to move more, right?
52:48
You just and and you're suppressing that.
52:51
I I felt that as well. And it just a couple of days ago
52:53
I was telling my my husband that when we dog sit for our friends,
52:58
I feel so much better because I'm taking this dog out for
53:00
three walks a day, you know, to exhaust him because it's, he's
53:04
still a puppy and yeah. And why don't I do it for
53:09
myself? Because when we're dog sitting
53:11
him, I figure out how to take him for his walks, even with my
53:15
work schedule. And I never give myself that
53:17
gift when I'm just me by myself working from home.
53:21
And so yeah, that I just, I had this moment where I was like,
53:26
oh, I can do this for myself. Like, why am I not doing this
53:28
for myself? And I think the invitation for
53:33
listeners is like, where are you shortchanging yourself?
53:38
The movement, the pause, the meditation.
53:46
So yeah. Beautiful.
53:50
Oh, I feel so grateful. Julio, thank you so much for
53:54
being with us. Thank you for sharing your
53:56
experience. How should people connect with
53:59
you if they like to reach out? How do you like to connect?
54:03
And juliabruni.com is A4 legged friend here that's just come to
54:08
visit dog. Oh.
54:11
Have you heard Julia bernini.com?
54:14
That's that's my website. Awesome.
54:19
Amazing. I love that your dog was having
54:22
FOMO when another dog is. Being talked.
54:28
About that's. The best place to OK for our
54:34
listeners. On our next episode, we are
54:36
going to dig into the myth of self advocacy and what mutual
54:40
aid looks like in and outside workplaces.
54:43
It's a really special episode with our friend Halasali, who's
54:47
Palestinian. She's a technologist, she's a
54:50
community builder, and she is our comrade.
54:54
It was amazing and I can't wait for you all to listen to it with
54:56
us. And as always, y'all, we want to
54:59
hear from you and imagine that maybe some stories came up
55:03
listening to this episode. Please reach out to us.
55:06
We are committed to not only just taking your stories in to
55:10
influence how we show up in this podcast, but weave your stories
55:14
throughout our show to build the community to know that you're
55:18
not alone. So send us an e-mail or an audio
55:21
recording at Hello at Circle Back dot Club.
55:25
I'm Lars. And I'm a part now.
55:28
We'll circle back.