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How AI Is Quietly Killing Your eCommerce App Stack · eCommerce Podcast

• 0:04
  Well, hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast. My name is Matt Edmundson, and
• 0:08
  it is great to be with you here on what can only be described as an insanely hot
• 0:12
  day in England. Yes, we do get them on occasions, and today is one of those
• 0:16
  occasions. But it's great to be with you, great to be recording this show. We
• 0:20
  are talking to the world's best dad. Yes, we are. Which I'm really, really
• 0:24
  looking forward to. Not self-proclaimed, I hasten to add, but if you're watching
• 0:28
  the video, you'll see why he's the world's best dad. But welcome to the show.
• 0:32
  It's great to be here. Great to be with you. For those of you who are new to the
• 0:36
  eCommerce Podcast, let me just explain to you that if you want to know anything
• 0:40
  about the show, today's guests, the links, all of the stuff we talk about,
• 0:44
  there's a really highly detailed blog post and all that sort of good stuff. You
• 0:48
  can find it at ecommercepodcast.net, our website. You can find all our episodes
• 0:52
  there, the whole archive. You can out about all the different things we've got
• 0:56
  going on from cohort groups. If you want to come meet other e-commercers from
• 1:00
  around the world and chat with them all the way through to AI systems that we
• 1:04
  use, you can find all that kind of information there. And if you do use our AI
• 1:08
  system, you will be able to talk to it directly about today's episode and how
• 1:12
  it's going to help you in your business, because that's just the beautiful thing
• 1:16
  about what you can do. So you can check all of that out. Like I say,
• 1:20
  ecommercepodcast.net. If you are a regular to the show and you're coming back,
• 1:24
  Awesome. You're a legend. Thanks for coming back. Thanks for keeping me doing
• 1:28
  this, which is— I just love doing the podcasting. So thank you so much for
• 1:32
  listening. Thank you for joining us. And without any further ado, Neil, the
• 1:36
  world's best dad. Welcome to the show, man. How are we doing?
• 1:41
  Hey, Matt. So excited to be here. I've been watching the show for a really long
• 1:44
  time. So having the opportunity to join you today, it's an absolute honor. Super
• 1:46
  excited.
• 1:49
  It's great to have you, man. Thanks for joining us. I'm looking forward to this
• 1:53
  conversation because it's fair to say, dear listener, if you don't know the way
• 1:57
  this podcast works, is I always do like a pre-call with the guests. So we do
• 2:00
  this sort of call, don't we, where we sort of chat about what we're going to
• 2:04
  chat about on the show and get to know each other a little bit. Is it going to
• 2:08
  work? Not everybody that does a pre-call gets on the show, I hasten to add.
• 2:12
  That's the whole reason why we do them. But I loved our conversation. And we
• 2:16
  were talking about this before we hit the record button. The AI that listens
• 2:19
  into said conversations gives me a summary of the points that we talk about. And
• 2:23
  it gave me a really interesting view of your good self, Neil. So before we get
• 2:27
  into what AI thinks about you, why don't you just tell everybody listening to
• 2:31
  the show who you are, what you do, and why you're here?
• 2:36
  Well, I'm so excited to be here. My name is Neil. I have worked in ecommerce for
• 2:40
  the last 8, 9 years, primarily, primarily leading teams in ecommerce software,
• 2:44
  particularly in the Shopify ecosystem. So one of the things I've gotten to do
• 2:49
  Throughout that time is work with some of the coolest, hottest, most exciting
• 2:53
  brands on Shopify, help them scale through various tooling strategies, all in
• 2:57
  the name of increasing the number of customers that come into their funnel and
• 3:01
  retaining them all the while.
• 3:06
  Mm.
• 3:06
  And over the course of that journey, I have led a number of sales teams,
• 3:11
  ecommerce software players, some of the most successful names that we know
• 3:15
  today. And I sit here today kind of with an amazing bird's eye view of what has
• 3:19
  worked, what has not, and, uh, now primarily focus on GTM advisory for various
• 3:23
  other software companies in the ecommerce ecosystem.
• 3:28
  Very good. And before we get too deep into it, for those that don't know what
• 3:30
  GTM stands for, just give us a, a quick review.
• 3:34
  Go-to-market. GTM stands for go-to-market. So when you think of the sales, uh,
• 3:38
  marketing partnerships, customer success motions, go-to-market is how a brand,
• 3:43
  how a software company goes into the ecosystem and penetrates and lands more
• 3:47
  customers.
• 3:51
  Fantastic. Fantastic. And this is what you do day in, day out, right?
• 3:57
  Exactly. I, you know, I, I started in the ecosystem, uh, largely, uh, as a
• 4:01
  seller myself. Um, you know, I got started understanding that I wanted to spend
• 4:06
  my career in ecommerce. I have this like incredible love for brands and, and
• 4:10
  every brand in that, in this ecosystem, largely because of how they all got
• 4:15
  started, right? They all, effectively got started in their basement or their
• 4:19
  living room table, husband and wife, a couple of partners, just a dream and a
• 4:24
  Shopify account, right? Like all of these brands that exist today started from
• 4:28
  that same exact place. Yeah. So when you, yeah, that makes it super exciting.
• 4:33
  It's like who you're interfacing with, you're working with some of the most
• 4:37
  motivated, hungry, high grit individuals on the face of the planet, those that
• 4:42
  chose to bet on themselves. And so as they continue to bet on themselves and
• 4:47
  scale you know, over the course of their journey. Like, it's just been an
• 4:51
  amazing journey for me having the opportunity to support them and, and watch
• 4:56
  them with a front row seat.
• 5:00
  That's really— it's interesting when you think— I suppose thinking that through
• 5:04
  with Shopify, if you were going to start an ecommerce business, default-wise,
• 5:08
  you're going to go down the Shopify route most of the time, I would have
• 5:13
  thought. There's no coding, there's no technical requirements, there's an app
• 5:17
  store, you can pretty much do this out of the box straight away. And they've
• 5:21
  cornered that market quite well. And so I guess I'd never thought about the fact
• 5:25
  that most people you speak to who do have a Shopify store started off in the
• 5:29
  basement around the kitchen table because, you know, they had this dream, but
• 5:34
  they didn't have the ability to put the website together.
• 5:39
  Spot on. Spot on. I mean, that's where Shopify got its start. That's where it
• 5:44
  built its moat, right? With, with the small mom-and-pop individual and a dream
• 5:48
  and a Shopify account. As time has gone on, they've scaled upmarket in a huge
• 5:53
  way, and Shopify's like future growth path really is coming from enterprise,
• 5:57
  right? Those that are looking at, that are built on traditional, more legacy
• 6:02
  platforms, Salesforce Commerce Cloud, Magento, custom stacks, and wanting to
• 6:07
  simplify their toolkit, simplify their total cost of ownership, and have
• 6:11
  replatform to Shopify. So that's where Shopify's putting the absolute bulk of
• 6:16
  their energy right now. That said, it still cannot be ignored that the 95% of
• 6:20
  the companies on their platform though are still considered small and
• 6:25
  mid-market. They're still that the startup and still in that startup mode.
• 6:30
  Yeah. Yeah. How important do you think that is for Shopify that they keep this
• 6:33
  sort of startup thing going?
• 6:37
  You know, I, there's like two very polar opposite opinions out there. On one
• 6:42
  hand, I'd say the, the, the bulk opinion is like enterprise is everything.
• 6:47
  Enterprise is where you can really achieve scale. Enterprise is where the bigger
• 6:52
  brands are doing bigger things. And Shopify more than anything is a payments
• 6:57
  company, right? And so when you think of like how they're really able to scale,
• 7:02
  it's really gonna come from ability to drive more volume down the payments
• 7:07
  category, and that's gonna come from enterprise. On the flip side, think of,
• 7:11
  think of how Shopify was built in the first place. I think the key to Shopify's
• 7:16
  long-run success is continuing to harness the love that they have for the
• 7:21
  ecosystem. Hmm. They, Shopify has done a couple of things that kind of bring
• 7:26
  that into question, you know, some restructuring with their partnerships orgs
• 7:31
  and re and, and kind of limited functionality or limited offerings of service to
• 7:36
  the smaller businesses. Yeah. That kind of shy away from where their original
• 7:41
  roots were. And that's okay. Like that's a business decision. That's like, uh,
• 7:45
  you know, has its value points. But at the same time, now if you look at
• 7:50
  software, software is increasingly becoming commoditized. Yeah. And so even
• 7:55
  though it's hard to say that Shopify would be truly displaced by another
• 8:00
  software up-and-comer, the reality is, is that I think the key to that is
• 8:05
  there's a very cult-like following of Shopify. And that really comes from that
• 8:10
  small and mid-market space. And as long as they hold onto that, I think they're
• 8:15
  going to continue to retain their moat as well.
• 8:20
  Yeah. That's a really good point. I'm reminded as you're talking, Neil, as odd
• 8:24
  as it sounds, I'm reminded of years ago, I had a conversation with a guy called
• 8:29
  Stefan Schollhammer. Now Stefan was the MD of a company called Klarss. And
• 8:33
  Klarss was a sauna company, a German sauna company. And the thing about this
• 8:38
  company was I used to import and sell their saunas, right? As odd as it sounds.
• 8:43
  And I remember Stefan sitting down with me and he basically said, this is how
• 8:47
  you build a successful company in this space. Everybody, he said, everybody we
• 8:52
  partner with wants to go after the big contracts, right? So in ecommerce, we'd
• 8:57
  call them enterprise. The big hotels, the big spas where you're selling £1
• 9:01
  million worth of health spa products. And he said the profit margins are good
• 9:06
  and you want to do those, he said. But the problem is it's very boom-bust
• 9:11
  because the sales cycle takes such a long time. So what you want to do is you
• 9:15
  want to understand what your basic costs are to operate as a business and go and
• 9:20
  sell domestic saunas. They're not as sexy, they're not as expensive, But that'll
• 9:25
  make your bread and butter. And then on top of that, you can build these sort of
• 9:29
  bigger projects. That is the only way to stay around. The ones that just go
• 9:34
  after the bigger projects never last. And I've called that for years. I remember
• 9:39
  this conversation, he drew it on a map and I call it the Shoehammer Effect,
• 9:43
  right? It's just this concept, this idea. So as you're talking, I'm thinking
• 9:48
  Shopify was built in effect selling the smaller products, the smaller domestic
• 9:52
  products. And going after enterprise gives you the bigger profits, but the sales
• 9:57
  cycle is longer. It's very boom-bust. It's very when they go, you've got a
• 10:02
  problem if all your eggs are in that basket and so on and so forth. So I would
• 10:06
  fundamentally, it's my long way of saying, Neil, I fundamentally agree that for
• 10:11
  Shopify to be around, they've got to really carry on doing well with the startup
• 10:16
  and mid, you know, the SME market that just love them for what they do.
• 10:21
  1000%. I mean, that draws a perfect parallel to almost every single role I've
• 10:26
  had at every single ecommerce software company that I've been a part of. And
• 10:30
  that is, if you divide the target market into an SMB mid-market segment and
• 10:35
  enterprise segment, you know, it's the SMB mid-market segment that keeps the
• 10:39
  light on. So when you talk about sales cycle, like the average sales cycle in
• 10:44
  SMB mid-market is typically like 14 to 30 days, right? From the, from the moment
• 10:48
  you have your first conversation with that prospective customer to when they
• 10:53
  decide to ultimate sign on. And that's a function of like fewer, you know, rungs
• 10:57
  of the ladder that you have to go up, fewer decision hurdles, quick access to
• 11:02
  the top, you know, shorter buying cycles come afterwards. Whereas when you think
• 11:06
  of enterprise, I mean, those cycles can go 6 months, 8 months, 10 months, 12
• 11:11
  months. And so like if you're betting everything on that enterprise, that's
• 11:15
  like, again, it's either you're hitting a home run or you're striking out and
• 11:19
  spot on. When you look at Shopify, for instance, specifically, I would argue
• 11:24
  that every single brand on Salesforce Commerce Cloud is in a Shopify sales cycle
• 11:28
  right now. They just haven't pulled the trigger yet for a host of other reasons,
• 11:33
  right? A, they, they move slower just as a breed. Number 2, they're much larger,
• 11:37
  more established organizations. The switching costs are a real thing that they
• 11:42
  have to take into consideration. Timing is everything. They have a very short
• 11:46
  window before peak season to be able to implement such a replatform. So you
• 11:51
  could argue that Shopify, they're betting everything on enterprise, but at the
• 11:55
  end of the end, almost every one of those Salesforce Commerce Cloud players are
• 12:00
  in a Shopify cycle right now. It's just why haven't they pulled the trigger? And
• 12:04
  that speaks to how difficult it is to land that enterprise customer. But again,
• 12:09
  once you do, the holy grail still is enterprise for two reasons. Number one,
• 12:13
  these are the customers that are gonna be a perfect fit for your solution.
• 12:17
  They're gonna pay you the most. And they're gonna stay forever or near forever,
• 12:22
  right? And on that last part, forever, because the switching costs are so high,
• 12:26
  because they move slowly, churn actually goes way down. And so that's something
• 12:31
  that has kind of plagued the entire Shopify ecosystem. You have 21,883 software
• 12:35
  companies all chasing the same 2,000 brands on Shopify. So there's an
• 12:40
  alternative for everything. And the patience that brands have is next to
• 12:44
  nothing. There's always someone offering a better price, a faster
• 12:49
  implementation, a better tool, a better team. There's always someone that's just
• 12:53
  doing it a little bit better. And there's very little loyalty in that ecosystem
• 12:58
  because there's so much competition, right? So, you know, that's the challenge
• 13:02
  of SMB, challenge of mid-market, right? Is this switching costs. They can change
• 13:06
  their mind so quickly on a moment's— as quickly as they can sign on, they can
• 13:11
  sign off it just as fast.
• 13:15
  Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, you talked about this a second ago, especially
• 13:20
  this is made all the more easy now with the commoditization of software. Like, I
• 13:24
  can, if I want to, if I'm so inclined, without any real coding knowledge, sit
• 13:28
  down with Claude Code, have a conversation, and have something up and running
• 13:32
  relatively quickly.
• 13:38
  Spot on. Spot on. I mean, I think we've gone through this I think that's part of
• 13:43
  where I have this very like inner conflict about the ecosystem itself. It's the
• 13:48
  concept of the commoditization. And for me, it really happened in like almost 3
• 13:54
  different stages of this commoditization, right? When you rewind the clock back
• 13:59
  to like COVID time period, we talked about, oh wow, there was 2 million brands
• 14:04
  on Shopify and that went to 4 million. In like a hot second, right? As soon as
• 14:09
  everything shut down with COVID everyone became a stay-at-home entrepreneur.
• 14:14
  Everyone opened up their Shopify store. And with that, as easy it was to open up
• 14:19
  a Shopify store, it was equally that much demand to go create a software company
• 14:25
  that supported that growing ecosystem as well. Mm-hmm. Right? So you had this
• 14:30
  like race to build brands, an equally fast race to go build software companies
• 14:35
  that supported that. Those brands. That became kind of the start of like, as
• 14:40
  price and commoditization began, there was always kind of an alternative. We
• 14:45
  had, you know, we went from like 5,000 software companies supporting the
• 14:51
  ecosystem to virtually like 10,000 virtually overnight, right? Yeah. And then,
• 14:56
  you know, phase 2 really came around, let's call it like early 2023, um, where
• 15:01
  you had AI becoming a much bigger thing. AI had been around for much longer, but
• 15:06
  in, in terms of ecommerce software, AI to build software became a new thing.
• 15:11
  And, and I'm not talking about AI as we know it today. I'm talking about AI that
• 15:16
  is just only the engineers knew how to use it and deploy, right? Um, and so you
• 15:22
  see like every single category in the ecosystem, whether you were a loyalty
• 15:27
  provider, whether you were a reviews provider, whether you were mobile app
• 15:32
  provider, Every single category was getting disrupted by this new player that
• 15:37
  was essentially built overnight. And I saw that, I was at Tapcart at the time,
• 15:42
  and Tapcart, amazing company, built an incredible platform for mobile apps. And
• 15:47
  then all of a sudden we see these up-and-comers come in and start building some
• 15:53
  very compelling solutions in like 90 days. Yeah. With like 4, 4 guys in a
• 15:58
  basement. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and in 90 days, very compelling, high-quality
• 16:03
  solutions too. And we're able to do it at such a low cost and offer at a low
• 16:08
  cost, right? Yeah. So this is AI increased that commoditization further. That's
• 16:13
  where we went from like in 2023, yeah, from 10,000 software companies to 15,000
• 16:18
  software companies in the span of like just a year, right? Mm-hmm. And then this
• 16:24
  third part, and this is the part where the commoditization has just gone
• 16:29
  completely rogue. And I feel like we're only at the start of it. And that's
• 16:34
  divided into two parts. One is this concept of agentic. What does agentic
• 16:39
  commerce mean, right? Not agentic in how to use agents to build software,
• 16:44
  agentic commerce. How do consumers ultimately shop?
• 16:50
  Yeah.
• 16:50
  And I think the days of forcing a consumer who's interested in your product or
• 16:55
  brand to go to your website.com, add to cart a product from the product page, go
• 16:59
  input checkout details. That's such, that's gonna, it's already feels like an
• 17:04
  archaic process and it's only gonna increase over the course of time because
• 17:08
  Magento Commerce, we don't really know what it is gonna be today. All we know is
• 17:13
  it's gonna be different than it is today. Yeah. And it's radically changing. And
• 17:17
  the value of a brand's website I think is going out, going down over time. And
• 17:22
  so then the question is, that brings into question like all the software
• 17:27
  companies, like how much of a value are they in the eyes of the actual end
• 17:31
  buyer, which is the brands? And then combine that with what you just mentioned
• 17:36
  at the top, the cloud piece, right? The ability to build software by the average
• 17:40
  Joe, right? Like I'm building some software right now. I have no business
• 17:45
  building software, but I am, right? So like, so at the end of the day, like
• 17:49
  that, These are the things that are just like increasing that commoditization at
• 17:54
  a faster clip. Um, and so it doesn't mean death of the industry, it doesn't mean
• 17:59
  SaaSpocalypse like everyone's talking. No, I'm not in that camp, but it is going
• 18:03
  to present a lot of challenges and it's going to require a whole lot of other
• 18:08
  ways to truly stand out.
• 18:13
  Yeah, that's— I mean, there's a lot there, Neil. Absolutely. It's interesting,
• 18:18
  isn't it? I mean, well, we were talking about this the other day in our office
• 18:23
  because The amount of subscriptions we now have on software is halved. Um,
• 18:28
  because the amount of stuff we've done ourselves through Claude to be specific
• 18:33
  to us has doubled, right? So we're now, we're now hiring, uh, we're just going
• 18:38
  to hire 2 roles actually. We're just about to hire for 2 roles. And the whole
• 18:43
  thing about their role is you're going to do whatever we need to do on AI. You
• 18:48
  are the AI guys. And people are now hiring for these roles. So I'm not hiring
• 18:53
  like a marketing manager, I'm hiring an AI guy, right? I mean, to be fair, I
• 18:58
  don't need a marketing manager because the one we've got is awesome, but
• 19:03
  especially if she listens to this show. But it's interesting, isn't it, how
• 19:08
  we've started to go down this road of being able to quite rapidly deploy
• 19:13
  solutions for our own business that really are tailored to what we want to do.
• 19:18
  Whether we should is a different question entirely, right? But a lot of people
• 19:23
  are right now. So you can't move for, you know, what was it that came up on my
• 19:28
  YouTube stream? Oh, I built a productivity app because I couldn't find one that
• 19:33
  worked for me. It's like, this is really interesting, isn't it, that people are
• 19:38
  now starting to do all of these kind of things.
• 19:44
  Spot on. And that's like happening from a workflow perspective, but then that's
• 19:49
  also happening from an actual business management perspective, the way you view
• 19:53
  your business, right? Like the concept of like an ecommerce brand, like looking
• 19:57
  at a dashboard and wondering how performance, uh, what performance looks like
• 20:02
  and where it's coming from and all the whys. Like I think that's the huge piece
• 20:06
  that we've talked about for like 5, 7 years is that these brands are sitting on
• 20:11
  this absolute war chest of data and are only scraping the absolute surface, the
• 20:15
  1% of what they could possibly be doing with it. And so now it brings into
• 20:20
  question, it's like, okay, I actually can tap into all of it. Now how do, how do
• 20:24
  I go about doing that? And do I need an expensive piece of software in order to
• 20:28
  do that? The answer is maybe not, right? Like maybe I could just like figure
• 20:33
  this out myself and figure out with just like my thoughts and just a prompt and
• 20:37
  not even have a prompt, have an agent just do the thinking for me. Like all of
• 20:42
  that has created this just change in mentality of like, do I need to hire that
• 20:46
  extra person?
• 20:51
  Yeah.
• 20:51
  Do I need to buy this extra tool? Yeah. Do I need to have the software I was
• 20:55
  using for X purpose anymore? And so all of these things are just not as much
• 20:59
  causing Yeah, we're talking about the rapid change, but they're also causing a
• 21:03
  little bit of paralysis at the same time. Yeah, yeah. In other words, buying
• 21:06
  cycles just kind of stopped.
• 21:11
  Yeah.
• 21:11
  Didn't mean they went and built something with cloud right away. It just— their
• 21:14
  desire to go explore software.
• 21:17
  Yeah.
• 21:17
  May have, you know, the timeline might have shifted there.
• 21:20
  Yeah. That is fascinating. And as you're talking, I think I mentioned this on
• 21:25
  the show a couple weeks ago, but as you're talking, I remember we had a— I had a
• 21:29
  conversation with a guest on the podcast Um, by the time that episode had
• 21:34
  finished, within an hour the whole thing had been transcribed. Okay. Claude had
• 21:39
  created the content that we were gonna use for that. Um, ready for edit. I
• 21:43
  hasten to add, there's always a human involved. Um, but out of that, we, and I
• 21:48
  did this, I'm not a developer. We have, you know, Mark, for example, was the
• 21:53
  head of our tech team. He, we don't use Shopify, we use a different system, but
• 21:57
  he heads up the, the, the dev team. So I'm, Here I am with Claude Code after a
• 22:02
  podcast episode going, Claude, some of the things that he said in the episode, I
• 22:07
  want you to fact-check them for me. And I want you to tell me all the things
• 22:11
  that he didn't tell me as well. Within half an hour, I've got this really deep
• 22:16
  paper. Within 2 hours of that, I've, I've written a bit of something with Claude
• 22:20
  Code. Me, the non-tech guy, that's analyzed our website, put together a whole
• 22:25
  paper on what we need to change. And you fast forward a few weeks since that's
• 22:30
  done that, and the conversion rate specifically around mobile conversion, which
• 22:34
  was where we were looking, our mobile conversion rate is now 400-500% higher
• 22:39
  than what it was. And that's, that was a few hours of work with me, a non-tech
• 22:44
  guy, rather than a subscription which is generic looking at stuff or calling an
• 22:48
  agency who were just going to do the same stuff we were going to do, to be fair.
• 22:53
  But it fascinates me how within seconds, you now have access to all of this
• 22:58
  information and this skill and this ability.
• 23:04
  1000%, 1000%. It's a— we, we've all become superhuman in our own light, and
• 23:09
  that's, that's just changed the way we've, you know, view of what's possible
• 23:13
  with our business. Again, every single time. And I think if you look at the, um,
• 23:17
  ecommerce ecosystem specifically, again, going back to the top of the
• 23:22
  conversation of most of these folks started just building at their living room
• 23:26
  table. Like maybe they haven't run a business before and now they are at a point
• 23:31
  where they have scaled their business, which is amazing. That represents all of
• 23:35
  Shopify brands today. Well, how did they grow? They built the plane while they
• 23:39
  flew it, right? It was like putting duct tape on the wings as it's taking off.
• 23:44
  And what happens in that process? It's like look left, look right. Hey, what are
• 23:48
  you doing? For this particular problem? What are you doing for this particular
• 23:53
  problem? Asking who's on your left and right, what they're doing to solve the
• 23:57
  problem. And that's why I like social proof is such a big thing. Like, oh,
• 24:01
  you're using this tool? Oh, I'll use this tool too. Right. And again, it's a
• 24:06
  function of everyone learning together how to navigate the space, how to
• 24:10
  navigate their brand. eCommerce brands have been like dealt, dealt like every
• 24:15
  possible challenge that could be thrown their way in the, in the, in the most
• 24:19
  extreme sense, like COVID happens, tariffs happen, iOS 14 happens. Like the
• 24:23
  ground is constantly shifting, uh, against, uh, underneath brands. And so that
• 24:28
  goes to now this whole conversation of AI, like, what are you doing? Uh, I'm
• 24:32
  trying this, I'm trying this, I'm trying this, right? Nobody actually has a very
• 24:37
  definitive answer if you look at it. Everyone's experimenting, right? But it's
• 24:41
  all of that experimentation that says, hey, I don't know what the answer is. I
• 24:46
  just know I'm, I'm kind of barking up the right tree to figure that out. Which
• 24:50
  means I don't need this thing, this thing, and this thing over here. And that I
• 24:54
  know for certain, right? So even at, even if AI and understanding of how to
• 24:59
  weave it into your ecommerce business is still in its infancy, what it actually
• 25:03
  has done is reduce the cost to run the brand virtually overnight because I mean
• 25:08
  the uninstall rate of software tools in the last like 90 days is huge, right?
• 25:12
  Yeah.
• 25:12
  Across the ecosystem. Yeah. Because it's like, do I really need this? Was my
• 25:16
  business really suffering from it? What value is it really giving to me? Again,
• 25:20
  this is not painting a bleak picture. I'm not trying to paint a bleak picture.
• 25:24
  It just goes to show that everybody, every, every brand right now is kind of
• 25:28
  shifting my mentality as we speak. And I imagine that that mentality is also
• 25:32
  going to be different just 90 days from now, right?
• 25:36
  Yeah. Oh, without a doubt. I mean, the whole thing moves so quick, it's
• 25:40
  relentless, you know. And I think one of the things we've noticed is there's a
• 25:45
  lot of people running ecommerce who think that they're too late to the AI party
• 25:49
  in many ways, but they feel like it's passed them by. I'm like, where do I even
• 25:54
  start? How do I even get going? It's part of the reason we developed a shameless
• 25:58
  plug here. It's part of the reason we developed Slingshot, the AI stuff that
• 26:03
  we've got that sits on top of Claude Code. Anyway, all that aside, what do you
• 26:07
  What do you say to people that feel that way? It's like, where do I even start
• 26:12
  with all of this? Because everything you're talking about makes a lot of sense.
• 26:16
  But where do I— I'm still sat around the kitchen table, Matt. I'm still
• 26:21
  scrabbling together my Shopify website. Where do we even start with it?
• 26:26
  Yeah, that's a great call. I mean, first, I think the ecommerce ecosystem has—
• 26:32
  it suffers from a particular condition as a cohort, and that is what I like to
• 26:38
  call shiny object syndrome, right?
• 26:44
  Um, I don't think you're the only person that likes to call it that, but let's
• 26:46
  go with that.
• 26:48
  Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, specifically in the ecosystem, if you look at, you
• 26:52
  know, blink your eyes every 90 days and why do I have more software tools in my
• 26:56
  stack? Like, I just started adding these things. Oh, it can solve this one
• 27:00
  specific problem or that specific problem, and you kind of bat your eyes and all
• 27:03
  of a sudden next thing you know you have this incredibly bloated tech stack.
• 27:07
  Yeah. And, um, because all these brands were built off their backs, that they're
• 27:11
  learning as they go, the ground is constantly shifting against them. Every new
• 27:15
  challenge comes with, what are the tools? How can I solve this?
• 27:19
  Right?
• 27:19
  When the reality is it's just Business 101 that will really solve a lot of these
• 27:23
  challenges. But our natural inclination is to go chase this shiny object. And so
• 27:27
  going back to your question, I, I think here with AI That's very much the same
• 27:31
  thing. Don't get me wrong, there'll be early adopters, there'll be huge
• 27:35
  beneficiaries of that. They'll, they'll, you know, they'll, they'll figure
• 27:39
  things out. They'll definitely be ahead by, by doing so. At the same time, at
• 27:43
  the end of the day, we are still selling a physical good here. We're still
• 27:47
  selling a t-shirt.
• 27:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:51
  We're still selling a supplement. We're still selling a, a physical product. And
• 27:56
  so as much as you'll see those early movers, not only like be early
• 28:00
  beneficiaries of what's happening and how they're adopting AI. But are you
• 28:04
  really falling behind so quickly that you're not gonna be able to compete? Yeah.
• 28:09
  No, I think there's gonna be a learning curve that is gonna be fairly graduated
• 28:13
  because this is not something that's coming and going. This is something that's
• 28:17
  here to stay, which means tools are gonna get better. Your ability to, the, the
• 28:22
  process, the tools to help you learn it are gonna get, uh, better or more
• 28:26
  accessible. I think there's something to be told on, hey, we have all these
• 28:31
  really cool AI tools. Very little enablement on how to make the most of these
• 28:35
  tools, right? And so that usually comes as a second part, right? And I think the
• 28:39
  AI layers or AI players that even anybody that's sitting on top of cloud right
• 28:44
  now are gonna be huge beneficiaries is the ones that invest in the enablement
• 28:48
  piece. They're the ones that are gonna help those kind of, 'cause we have the
• 28:52
  early adopters, but that really represents like the top 5%. The top 5%. What
• 28:57
  about the other 95%? You invest in your enablement systems to get that cohort
• 29:01
  ramped up. Well, we haven't even grazed the surface there yet. And so I think
• 29:05
  it's just a function of time. I don't think anyone's actually behind. But when
• 29:10
  you go into social, you open up Instagram, you open up LinkedIn, you're going to
• 29:14
  feel remarkably behind, right? Yeah. By the few louder ones that are openly
• 29:19
  talking about it.
• 29:23
  Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Love that. Where do you think this all goes for Shopify
• 29:26
  then? And platforms like Shopify?
• 29:30
  Yeah, I mean, I think it comes for, like, Shopify is not going anywhere, right?
• 29:35
  Like, at the end of the day, Shopify, if anything, is one shaping what agentic
• 29:40
  commerce is going to be, or at least they seem to be. Yeah, they're definitely
• 29:45
  investing in it. And if there was one clear winner as a result of this whole
• 29:50
  agentic commerce revolution. Put the agentic workflow revolution that's aside,
• 29:55
  agentic commerce is much further behind, but Shopify is the one that is part of
• 29:59
  the, part of the process of creating what that future's gonna look like, right?
• 30:04
  So Shopify is not going anywhere as it pertains to the other software companies.
• 30:09
  Okay, now there's 21,883 software companies shipped supporting the Shopify
• 30:14
  ecosystem. What does it mean for them? I think, um, we, it's gonna go into a
• 30:19
  couple, like 3 different cohorts, right? It's gonna go into the legacy players,
• 30:23
  the ones that, that have been around since early Shopify days. Yeah. That are
• 30:28
  trying to make these dramatic pivots. Unfortunately, um, the challenge there is
• 30:33
  like, listen, these companies won't go away. It's just that they're never gonna
• 30:38
  be able to command the premiums of the 2021 days that existed before for
• 30:43
  traditional software and SaaS models, right? Yeah. And so there's a lot of
• 30:48
  bolt-on AI that's taking place over there. And then as we move further down to
• 30:52
  the, like, the rest of the software companies penetrating the space, it's really
• 30:57
  gonna come down to like, do I wanna work? Do I like the people at this software
• 31:02
  company? Like really basic stuff. It's like, as much as AI is gonna advance,
• 31:07
  commoditize a lot of things, The old school stuff is actually gonna matter a
• 31:12
  whole lot more, right? Like, oh, these people building this software, well,
• 31:16
  there's a lot of similar softwares like this being built, but I like those
• 31:21
  people more. They're really responsive. They're really kind. Yeah. They do any,
• 31:26
  they bend over backwards to make me happy as a customer. Great. I want to work
• 31:31
  with them, right? So the concept of like the human relationship is only gonna be
• 31:36
  magnified over time.
• 31:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:41
  Mm-hmm. And then there's the trust cycle because again, as you have this many
• 31:46
  software companies, like how does a brand truly know who to trust? Yeah. Right.
• 31:51
  When, when there's like 10 new copycats popping up virtually overnight.
• 31:55
  Yeah.
• 31:56
  Yeah. And again, it really comes down to like who is investing in the
• 32:00
  enablement, who's investing in the actual customer, who's making the customer
• 32:04
  feel valued. Because the reality is as budgets could come down, as cuts take
• 32:08
  place, there, a lot of the customer-facing relationship builders are getting cut
• 32:12
  in that process too. So this is the opportunity where certain software players
• 32:16
  that choose to zig when everyone else is zagging and continue to double down,
• 32:20
  triple down, quadruple down on investing in the customer, not with AI, they're
• 32:24
  the ones that are ultimately going to see that relationship part cut through the
• 32:28
  noise as well, right?
• 32:32
  Yeah, I, I, fascinating, you know, I listening to you talk, yes, I, I
• 32:37
  wholeheartedly agree. I think Um, I think old school skills are going to become
• 32:42
  more and more important, aren't they, in the world of AI automations, AI slot,
• 32:47
  whatever you want to call it. I think that the ability to shake someone's hand
• 32:52
  and look them in the eye, uh, and win them over with your charm and personality,
• 32:57
  I think is actually going to count for a lot. Uh, I really do. I, I, it has to
• 33:02
  in many ways. And I quite like that. I don't know if we've ever lost it
• 33:07
  entirely, but we tried to give it up, I think, in the dot-com boom, didn't we?
• 33:12
  It's like, let's just get rid of everything human, just everything's online. But
• 33:17
  that's not the way that I've seen it. It's interesting that you mentioned how
• 33:22
  Shopify seems to be shaping a little bit the whole agentic commerce. Like
• 33:26
  they've just released that llms.txt file on Shopify, haven't they? Which was
• 33:31
  doing the rounds a few days ago. Everyone was chatting about that. So it seems
• 33:36
  that that's becoming a bit more cemented. The other thing that I'm interested in
• 33:41
  your thoughts, right? Because what I've noticed is, I suppose with, it's
• 33:46
  interesting you said that Shopify is in effect a payments company first and
• 33:51
  foremost, a bit like McDonald's was always a land company, wasn't it? It was
• 33:56
  always a building. It's always been a sort of land and buildings company and it
• 34:01
  just happened to sell hamburgers. Um, and the— we acquired a website last year
• 34:06
  and we're like, right, let's replatform this website, let's put it on a new
• 34:11
  platform. And we could have gone with Shopify. There are reasons that we didn't,
• 34:16
  I won't bore you with them, but we could have gone with Shopify. What we did and
• 34:21
  what we're experimenting with, because it's not launched yet, but again, just
• 34:26
  sort of some insight into sort of where we're at as as a company is we're like,
• 34:31
  what's a really great platform that interacts with AI well? Like, it's not
• 34:36
  necessarily— I don't want to write something from scratch with Claude Code
• 34:41
  because that would just be unnecessary, but is there something that Claude Code
• 34:46
  can interact with? So back to your point about a data scientist, like, can
• 34:51
  Claude monitor, um, this website like 24/7? Can it understand the data that's
• 34:56
  coming through? Can it make recommendations? Can it automate a lot of these
• 35:01
  these sorts of processes. It's the first time I've ever thought like that for an
• 35:05
  ecommerce platform when looking at one, um, where its primary reason for my
• 35:10
  considering it is how well I can connect AI to it. Um, I would never have said
• 35:15
  that 2, 3 years ago, but this is the— such is the shift now. This is where my
• 35:20
  head's at.
• 35:26
  Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I think, you know, everyone first thinks
• 35:30
  Shopify, they think website builder, right? They think like ecommerce store
• 35:34
  builder, right? Like that's the default thinking, right? That's the outside
• 35:39
  perception. They're, they just, just like you said, the McDonald's analogy,
• 35:43
  payments company that happens to offer websites. And if you're seeing what
• 35:47
  Shopify is doing with each new latest release of editions, They're slowly, I
• 35:52
  hate to say this, they're kind of eating their own ecosystem, right? To a
• 35:56
  degree, right? They're, they're building new tools that are essentially
• 36:00
  replacing pieces of software that you didn't need in that ecosystem. Sidekick is
• 36:04
  like off to the races in terms of what it's capable of doing compared to just
• 36:09
  like when we saw Sidekick 12 months ago, we were like, wow, this is wild. But
• 36:13
  like, what can it really do for me?
• 36:17
  That was the question.
• 36:18
  Now it's just like, you can't help but have your eyes just fall outta your face
• 36:22
  when you see what, what's possible with it, right? Yeah. And so the, but that's
• 36:26
  all coming to Sidekick saying, hey, what can I do to scrape the data? What can I
• 36:30
  do to dig deeper and, and use the data? And you're absolutely right, connecting
• 36:34
  AI is gonna be a critical part of that. Mm-hmm. But at the end of the day, gone
• 36:38
  are the days where it's like, I'm here at Shopify because it allows me to build
• 36:41
  a website. Yeah. There's, there's other tools. Now what's gonna make folks
• 36:45
  sticky to Shopify is the fact that they have their entire stack hooked up.
• 36:49
  That's already functioning quite beautifully. Like, is there a, a very
• 36:53
  compelling need to remove Shopify?
• 36:57
  Yeah.
• 36:58
  As the website builder, is there a true pain point that exists? Yeah. I wouldn't
• 37:02
  like that. That has to be a little bit more pronounced than it is today to make
• 37:06
  anybody really second guess the value of Shopify as the website builder, even
• 37:10
  though that is not their real product that they're monetizing, right?
• 37:14
  No, absolutely. Like you say, the cost of replatforming is a serious cost you
• 37:19
  have to think about. Like, when we were thinking about this site as an interim,
• 37:24
  we put it onto the system that we've used on all our ecommerce sites because it
• 37:29
  was a quick, easy thing to do. But I'm like, huh, I, I don't think the system
• 37:33
  that we use currently is going to be up to scratch in a year or two's time. So
• 37:38
  the let's use this site as an experiment to figure things out. But you— there's
• 37:43
  been a cost to that, right? Even without our guys who are, you know, tech savvy,
• 37:48
  and we can— it's— we can get Claude Code to help us, but fundamentally a lot of
• 37:52
  the guys will understand code. So you kind of— you do look at it and go, there
• 37:57
  has been a cost, right, to this new system. As with all things, Neil, I was
• 38:02
  probably blindingly optimistic at the start about how much that cost would be.
• 38:06
  But the reality of it is it's been greater than we thought it was going to be,
• 38:11
  um, because things always take more time, right? Uh, but the— I, I think, like
• 38:16
  you say, it's going to be the cost. You, you've got to look at it and go, does
• 38:21
  it make sense for me to replatform? What are the costs of that? Not just in
• 38:25
  terms of money, but time and energy and thinking, right?
• 38:30
  Spot on. Couldn't have said it better myself, my friend. You could write a book
• 38:32
  on that entire subject right there.
• 38:34
  Uh, yeah, let's not do that. Yeah, there's a friend of mine, he's got a podcast
• 38:39
  called Replatform. Let's go listen to his podcast. That's entitled Don't Read My
• 38:44
  Book. That's fun. Uh, but, um, yeah, it's interesting. It is interesting. Where
• 38:49
  do you, I mean, you're, you've got a, you know, an interesting role now, uh,
• 38:54
  with what you do. Um, where, where are you, where are you placing bets at the
• 38:59
  moment? Let me ask you that question.
• 39:04
  Yeah, yeah, great question. Right. So there's, there's two types of placing
• 39:09
  bets. There's the who's going to be the winner bets you can place, or what is
• 39:15
  the strategy in order to be successful in any type of go-to-market motion?
• 39:20
  Right. And that's the, it's the second question that I'm focusing the most of my
• 39:26
  time on. So right now I'm consulting anywhere between 5 to 6 ecommerce software
• 39:31
  companies, earlier stage, seed stage, Series A stage. Software companies on how
• 39:36
  to achieve the success in penetrating the Shopify ecosystem. These are software
• 39:42
  companies that have maybe 20 to 100 customers looking to get it to 1,000
• 39:47
  customers, right? And when you think about go-to-market and what that, like,
• 39:53
  where am I placing that bet? We have this incredible, like, AI has created so
• 39:58
  many amazing things, but it's created so much trash and slop at the same time
• 40:03
  when it comes to a go-to-market motion. And what I mean by that is like
• 40:09
  automations. Like think of these, like these are 21,883 software companies all
• 40:14
  chasing the same 2,000 brands on Shopify. Can you imagine the amount of emails
• 40:20
  these poor CMOs at these brands are getting right now?
• 40:25
  I know how many I get.
• 40:26
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you imagine? If you were the, a top 2,000 brand on
• 40:31
  Shopify, what your email inbox looks like right now. And so it's incredibly
• 40:36
  crowded, it's noisy, it's an absolute mess. And in, in fact, email is eroding or
• 40:40
  completely eroded already as a trust channel, right? Mm-hmm. And so when you
• 40:45
  think of what an outbound motion looks like, what I'm consulting on is, hey, you
• 40:49
  know what? You're interested in that customer, go make them feel special. I
• 40:54
  don't know. Fly and go see them. Because if I look at like, let's say the 10
• 40:58
  last largest contracts or deals that I've landed in most recent memory, out of
• 41:03
  10 of those, 10 of them I went and met in person. 10 out of 10. And so that's
• 41:08
  where the concept of like, if there's that many software companies, who do you
• 41:12
  trust? How do you cut through that noise? It's in-person, uh, go-to-market. So
• 41:17
  where am I placing bets? LinkedIn. LinkedIn is like the greatest go-to-market
• 41:21
  and untapped motion in existence. In my view, I've bet my entire career
• 41:26
  historically on LinkedIn. That's where I've achieved almost all of my success in
• 41:31
  go-to-market. Mm-hmm. And now I'm advising the same thing. And, and so when you
• 41:35
  think of that, it's like, okay, how do ecommerce softwares get in front of
• 41:40
  brands? Email inbox is completely dead as a channel.
• 41:44
  Yeah.
• 41:44
  As we talked about. Cutting through the noise, standing out, being active on
• 41:49
  social, not just through content, but through a social-led outbound strategy
• 41:54
  that ultimately harnesses and holds the attention of those software companies.
• 41:58
  So we're not in the business of competing against other providers in the space
• 42:03
  for that brand's business. We're in the business of competing against every
• 42:08
  other software company for attention. And he or she that is able to win the
• 42:12
  attention game and hold the attention of the brands that they're hoping to work
• 42:17
  with are the ones that ultimately win, right? Yeah. So placing bets, it's like
• 42:22
  old school relationship building, old school trust building, giving before
• 42:26
  you're taking, like the things that we all learned in preschool, like bring
• 42:31
  those back, bring those skills back. 'Cause we've lost a lot of that with all of
• 42:36
  AI automations and shortcuts that, people are wanting to achieve in order to get
• 42:40
  to success, that those who chose to do the things that don't scale are
• 42:45
  ultimately the ones that are going to be huge beneficiaries of that as well.
• 42:50
  Yeah, that's really fascinating. Yeah, I like the social outreach, um, the
• 42:54
  whole— yeah, the whole thing on LinkedIn. LinkedIn fascinates me. I mean, just
• 42:58
  absolutely fascinates me as a channel and a tool, more so in many ways than
• 43:02
  Instagram or Facebook. But that's another episode, that's another story. Uh,
• 43:06
  Neil, listen, I'm aware of time, man. I'm enjoying the conversation, but if
• 43:10
  people want to reach out to you, if they want to find out more about what you
• 43:14
  do, how you can help them, what's the best way to do that?
• 43:18
  Uh, as, as I just said, I live on LinkedIn. I live and breathe LinkedIn. So if
• 43:21
  you want to find me, come find me on LinkedIn.
• 43:25
  I'll be there. Fantastic. We will of course link to Neil's LinkedIn post in the
• 43:28
  show notes. So if you're listening on a podcast app, just go down in the show
• 43:32
  description, it'll be in there. If you're watching on YouTube, just go into the
• 43:36
  YouTube description, it will be there. Go and connect with Neil. I'm sure he'll
• 43:40
  happily connect and answer any questions you've got within reason, obviously.
• 43:44
  And talking of questions within reason, Neil, great segue. Let's do the question
• 43:48
  for Matt. This is where I ask you for a question for me that I'm going to answer
• 43:52
  on social media. What's your question for me?
• 43:56
  Yes, Matt, what is the most audacious and ridiculous request you've ever
• 44:03
  received from a client that you said yes to?
• 44:11
  Love that.
• 44:13
  Okay.
• 44:14
  Without breaking the confines of confidentiality, of course, I will tell that
• 44:18
  story on LinkedIn. And yes, involves an Austrian castle, by the way, just to
• 44:23
  give you an— anyway, I won't go into it. So, Neal, I like to do this thing at
• 44:28
  the end of the show show called Saving the Best Till Last. And this is where we
• 44:32
  ask our amazing guests like yourself, for those that have stayed behind, just
• 44:37
  take the mic for 2 minutes and just give them your best value-driven tips for
• 44:42
  anyone that's made it this far that is in this space. And they've either started
• 44:47
  an ecommerce business or they've been up and running for a few years and they're
• 44:51
  thinking, oh my goodness, this sounds both fun and crazy and hellish all at the
• 44:56
  same time. What's your top tips?
• 45:02
  You know, when we think about what it means to work in the ecommerce ecosystem,
• 45:06
  we, we are interfacing, working with some of the coolest brands on the planet. I
• 45:11
  would argue that like every single brand I have the opportunity to interface
• 45:15
  with are 10x cooler than I ever will be, right? What does that mean? It makes
• 45:20
  our jobs super fun, really exciting, different every single day. And at the same
• 45:24
  time, you have this incredible level of respect for those that you get to serve.
• 45:29
  You almost see a part of yourself in what they're building too, right? Because
• 45:33
  every single person is going through their own personal journey, their own
• 45:38
  personal challenges. They're building their own personal plane as they fly it.
• 45:43
  And so working in this Shopify ecosystem, you have the opportunity to work
• 45:47
  directly with brands that are doing that exact same thing themselves as they
• 45:52
  build their businesses. So when you take all of that into account, what does
• 45:56
  that mean if you're hoping to work with them. If you have the desire to work
• 46:01
  with some of these brands, the best thing you can do is put yourself in their
• 46:05
  shoes. Try to live the world that they're in, walk in their shoes, understand
• 46:10
  what their day looks like day in and day out. And then over the course of that
• 46:14
  journey, I invite you to go reach out and interview 20 of them because that'll
• 46:19
  be the single best MBA that you could ever potentially receive. I always thought
• 46:23
  that when I got an MBA in marketing way back when, that I would become like this
• 46:28
  master marketer. And boy, was I wrong. That was ridiculously wrong that anything
• 46:32
  in a textbook could ever help me become a great marketer. It was 20
• 46:37
  conversations with operators that live, breathe, eat, sweat ecommerce, that have
• 46:42
  weathered every possible challenge that has come their way and are still
• 46:46
  standing to this day. You will learn an exponential amount from a person like
• 46:51
  that. So I invite you, regardless of where you sit in the brand community,
• 46:55
  whether you're brand side, software side, agency side, go strike up 20
• 47:00
  interviews just like the one we're having today. Understand what their world
• 47:04
  looks like and that'll teach you more than you could possibly do and help you be
• 47:09
  much more successful in any endeavor you choose in, supporting that effort.
• 47:14
  Fantastic. Love that. And actually, uh, Neil, I mean, confession, can I confess
• 47:18
  now? It's just, I think podcasting is a great medium to do said interviews. Just
• 47:23
  putting that out there. Uh, we've had, we've had some success on that whole side
• 47:27
  of things. Uh, it's really straightforward when you, uh, when you find someone
• 47:31
  and to say to them, do you fancy coming on the podcast? How many of them will
• 47:35
  actually say yes? Incredible stuff, really. Anyway, top tip for you there. Now
• 47:40
  listen, man, I genuinely enjoyed the conversation. I really did. I thought it
• 47:44
  was really fun. I don't get to talk about this stuff that much and sort of plan
• 47:48
  and think about where it's all going and the future in AI and all that sort of
• 47:52
  stuff. So I've really enjoyed it. Thank you for coming on.
• 47:57
  Hey, Matt, thank you so much. Again, I've been watching your journey for a long
• 48:00
  time. You've had an incredible level of success and wins over the course of your
• 48:03
  career and then having the opportunity to sit here today, chat, chat with you.
• 48:06
  It's just an absolute honor and it was a total blast.
• 48:10
  Oh, bless you. You smooth talker, you. Listen, another great episode all wrapped
• 48:14
  up. Thank you so much for joining us. Like I said at the start of the show, if
• 48:17
  you want to know more about everything we do, go to the website
• 48:21
  ecommercepodcast.net. If you want to connect with Neil, like I say, all the
• 48:25
  links will be there. If you're subscribed to the newsletter, it will be in your
• 48:29
  inbox. If you are a member of Slingshot, uh, AI platform that sits on top of
• 48:33
  Claude Code. It's going to be in Sam. So just go and ask, connect me with Neil,
• 48:37
  and it will do all the kind of magic stuff for you. Or just click the link in
• 48:41
  the description. Either any of those will work. Do connect with him. I'm sure
• 48:44
  he'd love to hear from you. But that's it from me. Thank you so much for
• 48:48
  joining. Have a phenomenal week wherever you are in the world. And of course, I
• 48:52
  will see you next time.
• 48:56
  Bye for now.