Latest / The FEEL Podcast: Women’s Empowerment, Emotional Wellness and Self-Leadership with Melissa Crook / Healing From Spiritual Abuse: Divorce, Faith Deconstruction, and Choosing Self-Care with Daphne McGee

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Healing From Spiritual Abuse: Divorce, Faith Deconstruction, and Choosing Self-Care with Daphne McGee · The FEEL Podcast: Women’s Empowerment, Emotional Wellness and Self-Leadership with Melissa Crook

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  The same thing when you're doing something new, right, or trying
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  something like honoring your own boundaries or maybe for example,
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  leaving conversations that that are not productive.
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  If when you do that the first time, it's going to feel weird,
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  right? It wasn't necessarily
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  immediately like, OK, yeah, that was the right thing.
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  I feel great like no changing that dynamic and switching it,
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  it's hard and it does doesn't necessarily feel easy at the
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  beginning, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.
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  And I think that's, that's that's the place that I got to
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  thinking about these hard and challenging experiences because
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  I have to look at the route, like, ultimately, I'm doing this
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  in service to myself. And I know that I can be
• 0:44
  confident in that. So even when the feelings are
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  hard, they may not match up yet, I can be confident that the
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  things that I'm doing, they are ultimately going to benefit me,
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  even if it feels uncomfortable. And so that's something I would
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  encourage people to say, like if you're on this journey of
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  figuring out how to care for yourself first, like try to
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  start small and understand and stick with the feelings of
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  discomfort and think about why are you feeling discomfort?
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  Discomfort, you know, is it because it's something new or is
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  it something that's harmful and maybe didn't work and maybe you
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  need to switch it up, you know, but if it's just because it's
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  weird and it's new, then, you know, maybe think about that.
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  Think about how to stick with that discomfort right as you're
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  you're changing your mind because it it takes time.
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  Hello field podcast audience. Welcome back today.
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  I've got a new friend here with me.
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  Although by the time this episode drops, if you follow us
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  on our panel conversations over on YouTube, but together, you
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  feel Daphne McGee will not be a new voice.
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  You will have had a chance to hear from her already.
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  But if you're you're more of a participant on the podcast side,
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  she's a new guest for us here and I'm excited to share her our
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  friend Neva Talatin. And Neva, it was the editor of
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  our book, Embracing Layers unapologetically.
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  She's also been on our platforms with us on panels and our 2024
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  radio show. She reached out to me and said,
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  Oh my gosh, I want to introduce you to Daphne McGee.
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  I'm you know, I'm working with her on her book and she would be
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  a great fit for your platform. Her voice needs to be heard.
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  And so whenever Neva reaches out to me with these voices, I'm
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  always excited to meet with them because she's got she's so
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  plugged in to these women who have these stories to tell and
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  these experiences and resources to share that we need to know
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  about and we need to be talking about.
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  So that is how Daphne and I connected.
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  We then got on a Google Meet, talked more new.
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  I knew immediately it was a great fit.
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  And I started, I'm like, how can I plug you in panels, podcast
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  conversation, all the ways. So I'm so happy to welcome her
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  with me here to the Field podcast today.
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  She describes herself as caring, warm, hospitable and brave.
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  Daphne McGee, Welcome to the Field podcast.
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  Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to have another
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  conversation with you. I am too.
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  I am too. Really looking forward to it.
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  All right, let's get right in. Talk to me about prioritizing
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  self-care in your life and what your journey has been with that.
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  Because you've been, you've had a journey.
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  Yeah. So I'll say self-care for me and
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  prioritizing that is a relatively new concept.
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  I grew up in the Baptist Church in in Texas.
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  I'm from Texas and still living in Texas.
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  So the Bible built and self-care is not something that was
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  encouraged in that environment. In fact, there are so many
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  different scriptures and things that are used to tell us that we
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  shouldn't focus on ourselves, that we should always focus on
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  other people and continue to sacrifice and just let God take
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  care of us, right? And that if we were focused on
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  ourselves and we were being selfish or maybe not being
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  spiritual enough, not trusting God enough, and that we needed
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  to trust God to take care of ourselves.
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  There's even a scripture in Proverbs that says lean not on
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  your own understanding, you know, And it's like, you know,
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  So in so many ways I was taught growing up that I did not need
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  to focus on taking care of myself, that that was a sin, you
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  know, not like God, anti spiritual, just the wrong thing
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  to do that it had to be focused on everyone else.
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  I am a big rule follower. So I was really good with all
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  the rules that I was taught in the church and that included
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  purity culture, which was huge during the time that I was
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  growing up. I was 7 and I remember being in
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  church and the pastor holding up this book and the book was I
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  Kissed Dating Goodbye by Joshua Harris.
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  And I don't know if you've talked with people in this
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  class. He has since retracted that
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  book. Joshua, yours has, yeah.
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  Yeah, yeah. He's since retracted the book.
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  For those who are not familiar with the book or the content,
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  essentially the idea is that dating is bad because ultimately
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  the goal of marriage is to honor God.
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  And so you need to be in an intentional courtship process to
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  be figuring out if this, if you're going to honor God
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  together with this person, right?
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  So that means you shouldn't be kissing, definitely not having
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  sex, right? None of that honors God because
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  I was taught, again, like sex is supposed to be for marriage
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  between one man and one woman and that's it.
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  And outside of that, it's a sin. And so again, I was good at
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  following all the rules. So I followed all the rules and
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  in terms of dating, I just didn't date growing up.
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  My dad also didn't allow me to date.
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  He gave me that Joshua Harris book again when I was 7 and
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  another one that he published later.
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  And so for me, I just kind of focused on my career.
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  I was like, I don't know about this dating relationship thing.
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  And my parents got divorced when I was finishing up high school,
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  going into college. And so I was like, well, y'all
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  have taught me these things about relationships and now your
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  marriage is over. And of course the church had
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  taught us that marriage is what you're supposed to do to honor
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  God. Like that's the most spiritual
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  thing you can do. And and God hates divorce,
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  right? So I was just kind of like, I
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  don't know what to do with all that.
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  I'm gonna go and focus on school.
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  So I went and I got 3°. Wow.
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  Studied health education and went to law school.
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  And when I was in law school, I met this guy in this church
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  group or Christian student group, and he ended up kind of
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  pursuing me. I remember he sent me a message
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  on Facebook that was like, hey, can I pray for you on your
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  finals? And when he reached out, I knew
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  it was kind of weird. I was like, yeah, I feel like
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  you're trying to play me, but I was like, you know, you know,
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  you're just, you're talking about prayer.
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  So OK, I'll, I'll entertain it. And he ended up asking me if we
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  could have a Christ centered friendship.
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  And I'm like, again, that's you're just throwing these words
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  around. But you know, I was like, I kind
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  of wanted some attention from a man.
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  And so I'm like, no, entertain it.
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  Long story short, I end up marrying this man and it turns
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  out to be an emotionally and spiritually abusive
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  relationship. I found out that maybe like 6
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  months into the marriage I had, I knew I had been experiencing
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  some confusion and just like weird things, not feeling happy.
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  But I didn't know it could fit into that box of, you know,
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  emotional and spiritual abuse probably about until six months
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  into my marriage. And I ended up staying in that
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  marriage another 2 1/2 years after I found that out.
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  But again, with the spiritual conditioning, I was like, well,
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  I followed all the rules. I was always told if I follow
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  the rules, then, you know, I would get loving marriage, great
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  sex, all the things and stuff like, OK, well, like God can
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  change him. You know, I entered into this
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  with a pure heart. So like, God should definitely
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  bless me, right? Again, that idea of like, I
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  don't need to take care of myself.
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  God's going to do it, or somebody else is.
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  Going to do. It and so ultimately it got to
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  the point where I saw like, hey, I'm responsible for this, but
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  also I don't want to believe in a God who is OK with me being
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  abused in marriage. And so ended up getting
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  divorced. And for me that was my probably
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  first like really biggest act of self-care was saying, hey, I'm
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  I'm going to be responsible for caring for myself about my
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  spiritual health as well and thinking about who's the God
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  that I want to believe in. Do I want to believe in a God
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  that is OK with me being abused, or do I want to believe in a God
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  that wants me to seek health and safety and care?
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  And so once I made that stuff to get divorced, I started
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  questioning so many things about my faith in so many ways that it
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  made me neglect myself. And so that was a teen when I
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  got divorced. And so ever since then I've been
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  on this journey of figuring out how do I take care of myself.
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  And then I started sharing that online and started working on
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  the book, which you mentioned with Neva.
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  And I'm calling the book God Loves Divorce, kind of turning
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  that idea on its head that God hates divorce.
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  One, It's like we can get into what that scripture actually
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  means and is saying. But I, I think the idea for me
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  is again, we're we all choose what we believe in terms of
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  spirituality or not. And I don't want to believe in a
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  God that's OK with us getting abused and like wants us to stay
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  and not leave when we can. So yeah, I would say the
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  biggest, like self-care for me started with my divorce.
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  Wow, you said so many things. I grew up in the Mormon
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  religion. I left the Mormon religion in
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  college and then eventually my husband and my husband left
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  Catholicism. We got married to each other.
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  We once our kids were born and they were getting into school
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  age, we thought, well, maybe we should get him in some kind of a
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  church tradition. So we went the more kind of non
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  denominational evangelical route.
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  And then we left that in 2020. All over a period of years.
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  Because of so many things you said.
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  The Western church is very well known for taking the parts of
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  the Bible that that allow them to have power, control people
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  and scenarios and weaponize it. And they don't get into the full
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  meeting and let's not even in which we can.
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  I mean, this is a whole conversation.
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  But the Bible itself is only got excerpts from men in it.
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  There are stories about women, but there's nothing by a woman
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  because it was decided by a group of men, you know about a
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  close to a couple thousand years ago now that those women's
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  voices wouldn't be allowed in. So there's this whole narrative
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  around the Bible being this untouchable piece of God it and
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  voice of God. There's it's about God from many
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  men's point of views. And but then there's a whole
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  other narrative in it that is treated as holy.
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  That is a narrative of the culture of the time.
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  And so once I started unpacking and all of that, and my family
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  did, my daughters did, because we've all been through these
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  experiences of what these teachings, the harm they had
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  done to us. I mean, what I was and wasn't
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  told about sex did a number on my own relationship with myself
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  and how I was able to engage in my marriage for years.
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  I mean, there was just so many layers.
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  So I, it is, I am so happy that we're starting to see more women
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  talking about this and the harm that it's doing and the
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  misunderstood messages and the reality of I, I, I'm much like
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  you and like my issue. People are like, oh, you walked
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  away from all this. I walked away from the man made
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  weaponized narratives that were not serving me, that kept me
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  feeling not enough and anxious and dirty and, you know, broken
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  for so many years. And I've waited myself with the
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  woman and the person that the loving God I believe in created
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  me to be. And I'm finally being allowed to
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  show up as that and trusting that it is up to me to
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  participate with God in who He designed me to be.
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  And so you've laid that out in your journey so well.
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  But there's so God, there's just so many different lanes and ways
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  we should go. We could go.
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  But this whole idea of self-care, being selfish and
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  taking care of ourselves and filling our cup, it's like, you
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  know, even the Bible says rest on Sunday.
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  But, but, but there are women across America cooking up a
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  storm and cleaning up and prepping up a storm for their
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  families after church on Sunday. Not to mention all the work they
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  did for church. Nobody cares.
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  They're not resting on Sunday. I mean, there's just so so
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  there's so many mixed messages and messages that are used to
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  weaponize. And it's so sad because we're
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  seeing it leak into so many spaces and places now to our
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  schools and to our government and to all these things.
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  And it's like, Oh my gosh, this just continues to hurt women.
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  And so that was a lot for me because it just awoke all of
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  those thoughts in me. But I, the fact that you had to
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  like go through all of these things to finally get to a point
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  of like a loving God would not want me to live in this hurt,
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  unfulfilled, you know, emotionally abused and shattered
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  state. This is not how it was supposed
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  to be. And so, yeah, I, I, I.
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  I'm glad I I'm glad I got there, though.
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  So many people don't. They don't.
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  So many people don't I and I think that's why I use the word
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  brave to describe myself because I was willing to ask those
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  questions. I've always been curious, which
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  has not always served me well in the church.
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  You. Know especially.
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  Growing up and asking questions about things that just didn't
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  make sense. Yeah, ultimately the answer was
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  always, well, God's ways are not our ways, so you're not going to
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  be able to understand, right. But it really it was just the
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  people I was asking. Maybe they also had the same
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  questions, but they they weren't willing to go there and ask
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  because of the implications for their lives.
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  But I got to the point where I'm like, what more can I lose at
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  this point? You know, I'm, I'm, I have so
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  much that I could possibly gain by asking these questions and
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  seeing like, what type of God do I want to actually think about
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  and serve and worship or not? So many people don't get to that
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  point, though, where they're OK with asking the questions.
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  And I feel like that's where it all starts, honestly, where
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  self-care starts is looking at what's happening in my life,
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  right? And like, what are the things
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  that are causing me harm and pain and strife and also joy and
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  pleasure, right? And how can I pursue those
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  things that bring me joy and pleasure?
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  And how can I eliminate harm where I can?
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  I mean, life is hard, right? So I'm not saying everything can
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  be easy if you just, you know, like drop all these narratives
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  and indoctrination. But where are places where I'm
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  making it harder than it needs to be, you know, and where are
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  some places that I can provide some relief for myself?
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  And again, even to get to the point of asking that question
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  requires A willingness to let go of some things you may believe,
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  which is hard, right? I get it.
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  Like changing your mind. This is what I tell people all
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  the time. The, the biggest thing that I
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  did in terms of like leaving my marriage was changing my mind.
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  That's where everything started. But that's one of the hardest
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  things to do, especially when you believe something for so
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  long, you're around so many people that believe things,
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  You're alone and asking these questions.
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  It's it can be really challenging, but I feel like
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  that's where change truly can truly start.
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  Yeah, yeah. It's that releasing the fear and
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  trusting yourself rather than believing of sinful nature.
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  Can't be trusted, can't trust yourself.
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  No, it's the lean. It's that letting because the
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  fear is used to kind of keep people in place.
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  A. 1000%. And it's why so many people
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  never leave. It is because of the fear.
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  And it's like my God is not a God of fear.
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  My God is a God of love. And if fear is the narrative and
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  it's discouraging my curiosity and learning, then that does
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  that just doesn't work for me anymore.
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  I mean, that's just is not in alignment with all the ways and
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  spaces I was created to be. But it's all these little
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  narratives that they use to keep you kind of in line, so to
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  speak, to match the narrative. So you have the courage and it
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  does. It takes a tremendous amount of
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  courage because when you've grown up and but once you do a
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  little, you step outside, you're like, I can breathe like, so
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  talk to me about what it felt like when you did that.
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  Literally, I could feel just relief in my body.
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  I could feel tension leave my body.
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  I was sleeping better. This was before my divorce was
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  final. But once we decided to move
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  forward with it, you know, and separate, I could feel so much
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  relief in my body from just trying to hold things together.
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  Yeah, I felt that in my body and I just felt so much confidence,
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  especially like you said, kind of seeing your decisions be
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  positively reinforced. I remember there was a time
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  close to the end of my marriage where I made this decision to
• 18:30
  take a road trip to a family event without my then spouse
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  because he was the morning we were supposed to travel, he
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  picked a fight. And that's one of that's the
• 18:41
  dynamic you see in emotionally abusive relationships as people
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  intentionally ruin celebratory moments or happy occasions.
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  And so I had seen that that dynamic happened over and over.
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  And so by that point in the marriage, I had decided, OK, I'm
• 19:00
  just gonna, you know, kind of set my own boundaries and know,
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  like, all right, I don't wanna end.
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  Like, I'm not gonna engage in the back and forth.
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  And also I'm not gonna travel with you if you're like, if this
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  is what you wanna do. He said, OK, well, I'm not gonna
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  go. And I'm like, OK, well, I am.
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  So I'll see you later. And just having, just following
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  through with that just gave me so much affirmation.
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  I was able to go and spend time with my family who loves me and
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  cares for me. And I've I've always enjoyed
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  spending time with my family. I think one of the dynamics in
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  abusive relationships is trying to isolate people, you know,
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  from their family and from their loved ones.
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  And he wasn't able to do that. And so I know, I know that's
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  another reason why he was probably picking a fight that
• 19:44
  day. But making the decision to go on
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  a trip by myself, it reaffirmed that I know what I need to do to
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  take care of myself, you know, and I can take those steps.
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  And so that was, I don't remember what your question was,
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  but. Well, I was thinking.
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  About courage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  It was how it felt whenever, yeah, whenever I started to take
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  those steps. And so, yeah, so much courage
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  when you take steps in the face of opposition.
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  And I say opposition, but a lot of times when you think about
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  it, sometimes people are just, like talking.
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  It's just kind of manipulative. But you can just take this up.
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  And it's like, you know, I know there are situations where
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  people are like, physically abusive and are physically
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  restrained and things like that, right?
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  Not discounting those dynamics. But that wasn't the case with
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  me. The opposition was all from him.
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  And you know, people at my church that would say, you know,
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  marriage is supposed to look like XY and Z taking that step
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  forward, getting that courage and confidence, what other
• 20:47
  people wouldn't it just it just, it gave me so much of A boost of
• 20:53
  courage and confidence to continue taking steps to care
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  for myself. I love that so much and this
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  really goes nicely into confidently setting healthy
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  boundaries. You did.
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  That was the beginning step of that.
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  Talk to me about that boundaries journey for you.
• 21:09
  Yeah, so during the marriage, I, you know, read so many different
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  books and articles and watch podcasts and things because
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  that's a lot of times what people do when they find
• 21:22
  themselves in this type of situation.
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  You want to see, hey, who else has experienced this?
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  What are some things that can help?
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  And boundaries was something that came up over and over and I
• 21:34
  really started to see boundaries as a way for me to honor what I
• 21:37
  need to be healthy and happy. And so once I really, I mean, I
• 21:44
  understood the dynamic of what was happening in my marriage
• 21:47
  backwards and forwards. I could tell you, oh, what he
• 21:50
  just said like that was gaslighting or that was
• 21:52
  stonewalling or that's, you know, I could do all of that.
• 21:55
  And So what I decided to do with that information because
• 21:58
  initially I was trying to tell him like, hey, this is what it
• 22:01
  is. And I would try to tell other
• 22:02
  counselors, hey, this is what's going on.
• 22:05
  But ultimately they couldn't save me.
• 22:08
  Like they were the ones that have to take, you know, they
• 22:10
  couldn't, they couldn't have the steps for me.
• 22:12
  And so I'm like, OK, I'm going to have to do something
• 22:16
  different in these conversations.
• 22:18
  Like if I know a certain type of conversation is not going to go
• 22:20
  well, I need to think of my boundary that I can implement
• 22:25
  for myself so that I'm not stressed out by these
• 22:28
  conversations wasting my time or energy or whatever else.
• 22:33
  And so it kind of started with if there were certain
• 22:36
  conversations and I could see that there were certain things
• 22:39
  he would do to get us off track, I would just say, hey, can we
• 22:42
  talk about XY and Z like we were, or do you need some time
• 22:46
  or do you admit a minute or whatever?
• 22:49
  Or I would say, I'm not interested in talking about that
• 22:52
  right now. Maybe later or maybe we'll come
• 22:56
  back to it or not. And it was small things like
• 22:58
  that that I did to honor my own energy and take myself out of
• 23:02
  the dynamic even before I got divorced, right?
• 23:05
  Because I was still at that point thinking that I would stay
• 23:09
  married and I would just need to kind of figure out the dynamic
• 23:12
  in my marriage and figure out how to honor myself and honor
• 23:15
  him. Because what was happening
• 23:17
  before was that I would get so frustrated trying to get him to
• 23:23
  care about me, right? To engage with me in a way that
• 23:27
  is healthy. And it got to the point where I
• 23:30
  was getting so angry. I was like throwing clothes and
• 23:33
  shoes all over our bedroom. And like there was one time
• 23:37
  where I kicked over his pamper and I was just yelling.
• 23:39
  Like I was just so frustrated because he would not do what it
• 23:44
  was that I thought was reasonable, right, that I was
• 23:46
  asking. And so that was really the wake
• 23:49
  up call for me that I was like, OK, I need to take care of me.
• 23:51
  I'm not acting in a way that's in alignment with my values.
• 23:55
  I need to, I need to figure, I need to step back.
• 23:58
  I need to figure out what I need to do for me so that I can move
• 24:02
  forward in a way that honors me. You know, honor because I was
• 24:05
  like this whole thing was supposed to be to honor God.
• 24:08
  What I'm is not doing that. Yeah.
• 24:10
  So how do I set myself up so that I can honor myself, my
• 24:16
  values and, you know, my my spiritual convictions.
• 24:20
  So that's why I even started to think about boundaries and
• 24:24
  removing myself from from certain types of conversations.
• 24:28
  And then again, the confidence of doing that consistently, it
• 24:32
  sort of builds up to the point where, you know, I also
• 24:36
  recognize that my spouse had boundaries.
• 24:39
  That like he. Didn't want to have certain
• 24:41
  conversations, right? And he has the right to do that.
• 24:44
  And it just essentially got to the point where our boundaries
• 24:47
  meant that we could not coexist in relationship.
• 24:51
  Ultimately, he was the one that ended up leaving our like shared
• 24:56
  space and kind of saying he was done even before I did, right?
• 24:59
  Like I was working on, I knew I was going to leave eventually,
• 25:02
  but he wasn't getting what he wanted from me in a relationship
• 25:07
  anymore because I was taking. I was focused on taking care of
• 25:10
  myself. Yeah.
• 25:11
  And so just starting small was saying, hey, maybe I'm leaving
• 25:15
  this conversation. It ended up building up to the
• 25:17
  point where I was able to be confident and say, hey, I'm
• 25:19
  leaving this marriage. And.
• 25:21
  Then ultimately I ended up leaving the church where I was
• 25:24
  as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:26
  I think, you know, making all the, when you start making those
• 25:29
  little steps and start like, oh, wait a minute, that felt
• 25:32
  honoring to me, then it kind of gives you that little boost you
• 25:36
  need to take that next step forward and to continue to trust
• 25:39
  yourself. You build on those things over
• 25:42
  time. Thank you so much for sharing
• 25:44
  that. I think it's so important to
• 25:46
  kind of hear that in that palpable way of like overtime,
• 25:50
  just starting to do these things.
• 25:51
  But you said something so important about you're in this
• 25:54
  this situation that was supposed to be honoring God that you
• 25:58
  weren't you knew you weren't honoring God or yourself and and
• 26:03
  honor. Or by spouse, right?
• 26:04
  Like yelling at you and throwing things around the room, like
• 26:06
  that's not that, but you know, why am I trying to get him to do
• 26:10
  certain things? And that's how I'm behaving.
• 26:12
  Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, identifying
• 26:15
  that too, because I think you know, to honor and you know,
• 26:20
  anything, whether it's higher power of God, whatever, however
• 26:25
  you look at this, how whatever your spirituality is honoring
• 26:28
  yourself is honoring the creation.
• 26:30
  And when you're honoring the creation, you're honoring that
• 26:34
  that who created you. I mean, it's and honoring the
• 26:37
  creation is living in authenticity to yourself, your
• 26:41
  values, who you were made to be. And when you step outside of
• 26:45
  that, you know what you feel it, but you also like, wait a
• 26:48
  minute, this is not matching the script.
• 26:52
  Something has went awry here. And you trusted that and
• 26:56
  continued to follow that path. And I, you know, I'm so amazing
• 27:02
  that you were able to do that because again, so many women
• 27:05
  that I've known through the years, don't they, they feel
• 27:08
  stuck. They're, they're just, they,
• 27:11
  they aren't willing to get out of it.
• 27:13
  Sometimes there's other dynamics involved, especially if you have
• 27:17
  children. You, you know, you've been with
• 27:19
  me on panels in the past where we talked about the fact that
• 27:22
  you were thankful that you guys didn't have kids because that
• 27:26
  simplified the fact that, one, there wasn't, that they didn't
• 27:31
  have to be considered in this process.
• 27:32
  And two, it meant you could have a clean break from this abusive
• 27:35
  individual as well. Yeah.
• 27:39
  And one thing I want to say is I, I don't want to make it sound
• 27:44
  easy, right? Like it's a hard process to
• 27:47
  start to do something new. And there's psychological
• 27:52
  reasons why that is right. If you're, it was, I think it
• 27:56
  was a therapist who helped me with this analogy.
• 28:00
  Kind of if you're, if you're always driving a certain route
• 28:02
  home and then you try to like say that ramp is closed and you
• 28:07
  have to take a new way home. It feels weird the first few
• 28:11
  times. And then you kind of get
• 28:12
  familiar and then, you know, as time goes on and you continue
• 28:16
  taking the new route, it's second nature, right?
• 28:20
  And it's just what you're used to.
• 28:22
  It's the same thing when you're doing something new, right?
• 28:25
  Or trying something like honoring your own boundaries or
• 28:27
  maybe, for example, leaving conversations that that are not
• 28:32
  productive. If when you do that the first
• 28:34
  time, it's going to feel weird, right?
• 28:37
  It wasn't necessarily immediately like, OK, yeah, that
• 28:39
  was the right thing. I feel great.
• 28:41
  Like, no changing that dynamic and switching it.
• 28:44
  It's hard and it does doesn't necessarily feel easy at the
• 28:49
  beginning, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.
• 28:52
  And I think that's, that's that's the place that I got to
• 28:56
  thinking about these hard and challenging experiences because
• 29:00
  I have to look at the route, like, ultimately, I'm doing this
• 29:03
  in service to myself. And I know that I can be
• 29:06
  confident in that. So even when the feelings are
• 29:09
  hard, they may not match up yet, I can be confident that the
• 29:12
  things that I'm doing, they are ultimately going to benefit me,
• 29:16
  even if it feels uncomfortable. And so that's something I would
• 29:19
  encourage people to say, like if you're on this journey of
• 29:22
  figuring out how to care for yourself, first try to start
• 29:25
  small and stick with the feelings of discomfort and think
• 29:29
  about why are you feeling discomfort?
• 29:32
  Is it because it's something new?
• 29:34
  Or is it something that's harmful and maybe it didn't work
• 29:36
  and maybe you need to switch it up?
• 29:38
  But if it's just because it's weird and it's new, then, you
• 29:42
  know, maybe think about that. Think about how to sit with that
• 29:45
  discomfort right as you're you're changing your mind
• 29:48
  because it it takes time. Yeah, that goes beautifully into
• 29:52
  and, you know, making that connection between our mental,
• 29:55
  emotional, physical, spiritual health, they're all connected.
• 29:59
  And you, you made such a good point.
• 30:01
  So many times when we make shifts in our lives and we're
• 30:05
  unlearning things that have not been serving us, our nervous
• 30:09
  system equates, you know, familiarity with safety.
• 30:14
  And so we might feel a little ajar for a while as we're making
• 30:18
  their shifts. And it kind of continually you
• 30:20
  have to remind yourself of, you know, when you feel ajar.
• 30:24
  So many times we, we just assume, oh, that must mean I'm
• 30:28
  doing something wrong or bad. And we go back to the other way.
• 30:31
  And instead of like, no, that I'm relearning and I'm learning
• 30:36
  some things and my nervous system just needs some time to
• 30:39
  get used to this. And it takes a lot of inner talk
• 30:43
  and like, no, you know, so I think it's so important to break
• 30:47
  that down and to, you know, and that realization as you're
• 30:50
  making these shifts. But talk to me about your
• 30:52
  realization of this, a mental, emotional, physical, spiritual,
• 30:57
  health connection in your own life.
• 31:00
  Yeah, I would say a lot of making the connections actually
• 31:06
  came after I got divorced. You know, I think the changes I
• 31:10
  was making when I was married was for more so for survival,
• 31:14
  right? I was like, I need to be able to
• 31:16
  get through the day and not be stressed out or discombobulated
• 31:19
  because we had this strange, confusing, weird conversation.
• 31:24
  And so it was more so for survival.
• 31:28
  And then once I ended up, well, I and I told you when we
• 31:32
  initially separated, I could feel in my body that there was
• 31:36
  relief, right? There was tension released.
• 31:39
  There were. It's also interesting.
• 31:40
  There were some different kind of health issues that came up.
• 31:44
  And I just learned that that's because my body was in a place
• 31:47
  of safety to actually Alert me to some things.
• 31:49
  Yeah. But I would say even initially,
• 31:52
  after I got divorced, I wasn't necessarily thinking about the
• 31:56
  connection with my body because, again, there is still some
• 31:59
  indoctrination that I was working through.
• 32:01
  And still we'll probably always work through around caring for
• 32:05
  my body. You know, there's some very
• 32:06
  negative messages about the flesh, quote, UN quote, that are
• 32:10
  part of this. That really toxic theology that
• 32:13
  tells us our flesh is sinful and we need to die to our flesh and
• 32:17
  crucify our flesh is just so violent.
• 32:19
  Yeah. And it's not even thinking
• 32:22
  about, you know, caring for ourselves and understanding like
• 32:25
  our bodies are telling us things and giving us messages and clues
• 32:30
  and hints and things like that. And so once I left the marriage,
• 32:34
  I and the church, I was able to really focus on myself and focus
• 32:40
  on, you know, kind of moving my body in ways that felt good and
• 32:45
  really just understanding, Hey, if I'm feeling something or, you
• 32:48
  know, that could be an intuition, something like that,
• 32:51
  you know, that it's kind of, it's all connected, right?
• 32:53
  That, like, anxiety can turn into headaches and, like,
• 32:56
  tension in my shoulders and, and just like, understanding how
• 33:00
  that all works together and embracing that versus trying to
• 33:04
  deny that and ignore that like I was when I was heavy in the
• 33:07
  church and in my marriage. You know, it's something that we
• 33:11
  all have to figure out. And it also changes as you get
• 33:14
  older, right? Like, your body does different
• 33:16
  things and you have to figure it out.
• 33:19
  But for me, I had to be free from that harmful environment to
• 33:24
  be able to listen to my body and just explore and, like, be OK
• 33:28
  with my body, you know, be OK with it.
• 33:31
  Yeah. Yeah, and that realization when
• 33:34
  my body was not created to work against me.
• 33:37
  My but my body was created to work for me.
• 33:40
  She was designed to give me clues and let me know when
• 33:43
  things needed to be tended to and things needed to be
• 33:46
  addressed. In.
• 33:47
  This whole idea of moralizing all of this in a way that's so
• 33:51
  harmful and putting these negative, positive, sinful, holy
• 33:57
  connotations on it just confuses the whole thing of what the body
• 34:02
  was actually designed to do and all that.
• 34:05
  Isn't that she encompasses and the potential she has when when
• 34:09
  you are allowed to breathe freely and allow and listen to
• 34:13
  her and pay attention and trust those things.
• 34:15
  Mm hmm. Mm hmm, yeah, for sure.
• 34:19
  And it, it's a journey for sure. But I, I just enjoy that I'm not
• 34:25
  cutting any part of myself off now, right?
• 34:28
  I have access to so much wisdom and information from my body and
• 34:34
  I don't have to ignore it anymore.
• 34:35
  I can take that and make changes as I need to, you know, and make
• 34:41
  changes and adjustments. And also that can give me
• 34:43
  information on how to nourish and care for myself, you know,
• 34:46
  So I'm just, I'm glad to be in a place where I have access to
• 34:50
  that. I'm not ashamed of it, you know,
• 34:53
  I'm not trying to ignore it. I'm not trying to turn off
• 34:57
  certain signals, push them down, because like at at a certain
• 35:03
  point, if you continue to ignore it, like you know, things might
• 35:07
  just go away or it'll just get louder and louder until you
• 35:09
  can't. Yeah, it and it usually when it
• 35:12
  comes up, it doesn't usually come up in a pretty way.
• 35:14
  I mean, and you know, so if we weren't meant to carry all of
• 35:18
  that unprocessed ignored stuff, we weren't meant to.
• 35:23
  And so there's such a freedom, I think too, that goes with you
• 35:25
  mentioned already that all I don't have to ship parts of
• 35:29
  myself off anymore. You know, I'm able to tap into
• 35:32
  all of it and pay attention and give love and attention and to
• 35:36
  all of it. Yeah.
• 35:37
  So good, So good. And this has really opened the
• 35:39
  door for you to really show up for yourself unapologetically,
• 35:45
  but also others. I mean, this book, I think, is
• 35:47
  such a manifestation of that. The work you do in your
• 35:51
  professional life is a manifestation of that.
• 35:54
  So talk to me about this journey of like, OK, I I found this way
• 35:59
  to tend to myself in a way that I know is healthiest for me.
• 36:03
  I think I might be able to offer something to others as well.
• 36:07
  When what was when was that moment?
• 36:09
  Talk to me about that kind of evolution.
• 36:12
  Yeah, well, I've always been kind of vocal online about my
• 36:18
  faith and how I felt like my faith was beneficial to my life.
• 36:22
  I kind of look back at old Facebook post and cringe on just
• 36:27
  how. I do too.
• 36:29
  There's Spirit. Yeah, they were so over
• 36:32
  spiritualized and I'll see post about oh, praise God.
• 36:37
  I got scholarships to law school and it's not my work, but God's
• 36:42
  work. Glory to God.
• 36:43
  I'm just, you know, so I was so vocal and people from my
• 36:47
  churches growing up that were on my page that, you know, oh,
• 36:51
  words, we're so proud of you. We knew you were always going to
• 36:55
  do great things, blah, blah, blah, XYZ.
• 36:58
  And so I'd always been super vocal about that.
• 37:00
  Even when I got married, I was like, hey, look at this, like,
• 37:03
  look at this gift. I followed the rules and I got
• 37:06
  this, this gift of getting married.
• 37:08
  And then I'm like, oh, this is not the gift that I thought it
• 37:12
  it was, right? It doesn't feel like a gift at
• 37:14
  all it. Doesn't feel like a gift at all.
• 37:18
  And so it was kind of natural for me to start sharing my
• 37:22
  journey. So it was back, of course, in
• 37:25
  July of 2019. And then in September, I just
• 37:29
  shared a post that said, hey, like my marriage ended.
• 37:33
  Like I'm OK. But I learned a lot.
• 37:35
  And I want to share, you know, some of the things that I've
• 37:38
  learned. And I would just, you know,
• 37:40
  that's when I kind of started to share different content from
• 37:43
  other creators about like spiritual abuse, emotional
• 37:46
  abuse, different toxic theology that can perpetuate abusive
• 37:52
  environments. And, and, and then maybe the
• 37:56
  next year, I was like, you know, let me just kind of share my
• 37:59
  story and what I went through. So I wrote a blog and I've
• 38:02
  always enjoyed kind of writing and sharing things that way and
• 38:07
  being creative in that way. And so that was fun for me.
• 38:11
  I did that for me. You know, I was like, I think
• 38:13
  this will be cool to synthesize the experience in that way.
• 38:16
  And so many people, it resonated with so many people, people who
• 38:21
  I didn't even think because you never know what people are going
• 38:24
  through through in their in their marriages, in their homes,
• 38:28
  things like that. And so, so many people reached
• 38:31
  out to me, you know, publicly and privately about how my story
• 38:35
  resonated with them. And I knew at that point I was
• 38:39
  like, this is probably going to be a book, you know, and I want
• 38:42
  to share more. And I'm glad that I didn't write
• 38:45
  it immediately because I've, I've learned so much even since
• 38:49
  sure. And so, yeah, I'm still working
• 38:54
  on the book. My goal is to finish it this
• 38:57
  year. Well, actually, by the time this
• 38:58
  comes out, maybe I'll be done with the manuscript.
• 39:00
  Hopefully we'll see. OK.
• 39:02
  So, yeah, the the writing for me is it's not just for other
• 39:10
  people. Again, it's something that I
• 39:13
  really enjoy. But I've learned that a part of
• 39:16
  self-care really is community care.
• 39:19
  You know, I can be good if the people around me aren't good,
• 39:24
  you know, and it's not just I'm not learning this just for
• 39:27
  myself. I'm learning this to share.
• 39:29
  And the book for me is something that I wish I had when I was in
• 39:35
  my marriage. You know, the title alone I know
• 39:38
  will make some people kind of cringe.
• 39:41
  God loves divorce, right? I know I would have, if I would
• 39:43
  have given it to myself seven years ago, I would be like,
• 39:46
  what? But I'd also be curious like.
• 39:48
  Right. How can you say that, you know,
• 39:53
  And so I'm writing it. I'm writing essentially as
• 39:55
  something that I needed. And I know that's how many
• 39:57
  people are in the same situation or similar situations and maybe
• 40:02
  want to ask the questions, but don't feel the bravery too.
• 40:04
  You can just follow my journey of asking the questions, right?
• 40:07
  And maybe I asked some questions that you were too scared to, you
• 40:11
  know, or that maybe you couldn't get answers to.
• 40:13
  Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about
• 40:16
  the title because I I love it. I'm like, I love it.
• 40:20
  And so if you, if you talk how you decided that, no, this is
• 40:24
  what we're doing, we're going to turn this on its head.
• 40:27
  Yeah, so I don't remember what I think.
• 40:30
  I randomly said it in an Instagram post a few years ago.
• 40:35
  I had done a of course or watched a YouTube video by Bob
• 40:41
  HAMP, who's a counselor in in Texas, and he was talking about
• 40:47
  the scripture in Malachi that says God hates divorce and the
• 40:51
  context behind it. And essentially the context is
• 40:56
  that in that time, marriage was basically a legal process.
• 41:02
  Yeah. Because it was a very, it's a
• 41:03
  very patriarchal society. And women in that society had to
• 41:07
  be married to be able to have any type of secure life.
• 41:12
  Yeah. And what was happening is that
• 41:14
  men in that society were cruel. And so they would marry women,
• 41:18
  but then not like kind of, they would abandoned them and not
• 41:23
  give them the legal protection of a divorce so that they could
• 41:27
  seek that protection and provision from somewhere else.
• 41:31
  They would abandoned them with no recourse.
• 41:34
  Wow. Which that is not the divorce
• 41:36
  that we talk about in our society.
• 41:38
  No. And so I want people to
• 41:40
  understand that the divorce that we talk about in our society
• 41:43
  today is not in the Bible. Yeah.
• 41:47
  Manage that we talk about in our society today is not in the
• 41:49
  Bible. Yeah, but kind of seeing and
• 41:52
  understanding more of the context it showed me.
• 41:55
  Okay, so God hated the cruelty, God hated the abandonment of,
• 42:00
  you know, these women not being able to get what they needed.
• 42:04
  And I kind of looked at the inverse, like, OK, well, if God
• 42:07
  hated that, then I feel like God would have loved something that
• 42:10
  gave them liberation and freedom.
• 42:13
  And so in that case, it would have been a divorce, right?
• 42:15
  Divorce in the process that would give these women freedom.
• 42:18
  And so I was like, well, OK, then actually God loves divorce,
• 42:22
  right? Because if we look at it as a
• 42:24
  tool of liberation and freedom, the God that I would want to
• 42:27
  believe in would love that, would love that process.
• 42:30
  They would love for women to be able to flee abuse and
• 42:34
  oppression and for marriage not to be used as a tool of power
• 42:38
  and control. Yeah.
• 42:39
  So ultimately I'm saying like the God like I don't want to
• 42:41
  believe in a God that is OK with abuse in interpersonal
• 42:44
  relationships or otherwise. Yeah, oh, so good.
• 42:48
  Thank you so much for that. I love that so much.
• 42:50
  All right, talk to me about the importance because I feel like
• 42:54
  this is what you really did at the end of the day of coming
• 42:57
  back to your why and your values.
• 42:59
  You were able to unpack and discover what your why in values
• 43:04
  were versus the things you were told they were supposed to be.
• 43:08
  But you figured out, uh, uh, this is not serving me.
• 43:12
  This is not healthy and well for me.
• 43:14
  So talk to me about that process.
• 43:18
  Yeah, for sure. So before this, the process of
• 43:21
  divorce and leaving the church, I didn't know I could have my
• 43:23
  own values. You know, I just thought like,
• 43:26
  I'm following the rules, right? So my values were following the
• 43:29
  rules, honoring God, not sinning, you know, that type of
• 43:35
  thing. But what I really uncovered
• 43:39
  through the process of leaving my marriage was that I value
• 43:43
  safety and I value care. And I was able to really explore
• 43:49
  that once I left and say, hey, this is a personal value of
• 43:52
  mine. Like I, I value taking care not
• 43:55
  just for me, but for the broader community at large, you know, so
• 43:59
  when I see people that don't have food, that don't have
• 44:04
  shelter, that are being oppressed, I tried to advocate
• 44:07
  for the abolition of those things that would cause that
• 44:12
  oppression. Yeah.
• 44:13
  And so for me, that's, that's how I was able to come into
• 44:16
  alignment because I was like, I was being harmed in my marriage.
• 44:19
  And that really was against my values.
• 44:22
  Looking at like, you know, being harmed in an interpersonal
• 44:25
  relationship. Yeah, that's not that in the
• 44:27
  line with my with my values, Right.
• 44:29
  And that's kind of where some of the rub was happening for me was
• 44:32
  like, even though, you know, OK, this is a God honoring marriage,
• 44:37
  we didn't even kiss until we got married, right?
• 44:39
  Like our wedding day was our first kiss.
• 44:42
  I was like, this is not feeling right to me.
• 44:45
  And so I was able to identify like I value care and safety and
• 44:50
  you know, I value people being able to relieve themselves from
• 44:53
  harmful situations. So I really just have to kind of
• 44:57
  look at my life and the actions I was taking to uncover what my
• 45:02
  values were. And even now thinking about
• 45:06
  community care and what does that look like?
• 45:09
  You know, because I think some people will see self-care.
• 45:12
  And I know you've talked plenty about self-care, how it's not
• 45:14
  always like a surface. Let me go take a bubble bath,
• 45:18
  whatever, let me go shopping. And I've really seen how even
• 45:22
  some of those things, it ultimately could be against
• 45:26
  self-care. So for me, if I value, you know,
• 45:29
  people being free from harm, it's not self-care for me to go
• 45:35
  out and shop at a store or corporation that is underpaying
• 45:39
  their employees. That is, you know, exploiting
• 45:43
  people overseas who are making different garments, who, you
• 45:48
  know, it doesn't serve me to be buying clothes made of plastic
• 45:52
  that are going to be passed, that are going to pollute the
• 45:55
  environment, you know, like that ultimately.
• 45:57
  Doesn't serve. Me or my community.
• 45:59
  So I've been really thinking about that more broadly now.
• 46:03
  And I just, I've, I've seen the evolution even just over the
• 46:07
  past four to five years of understanding my values and how
• 46:10
  it plays out on a broader level. And I just love the freedom to
• 46:14
  be able to explore that because honestly, you know, if you're in
• 46:17
  these strict religious environments, you can't explore
• 46:19
  or change, right? Like the marker of being super
• 46:22
  spiritual is staying the same and firm foundation and being
• 46:25
  rooted and. Steadfast.
• 46:27
  Yeah, but it's like if you get new information, you should be
• 46:32
  able to change your mind based on that, right?
• 46:34
  Maybe something I thought is harmful to people and I didn't
• 46:37
  know. I should be able to change my
• 46:39
  mind about that. And I'm in an environment now
• 46:42
  where I can, right? And the implications are that I
• 46:44
  can care better for my community and myself when I've changed my
• 46:48
  mind. Yeah, yes, I love that so much.
• 46:50
  I think, you know, that curiosity piece really has
• 46:53
  served you and stayed with you, that you even had this kid that
• 46:57
  would they tried to tamp out of you.
• 46:59
  And that's something I know that I've really tapped into too.
• 47:01
  When I start feeling, you know that because I know that
• 47:04
  curiosity and comfort can't coexist together.
• 47:08
  And I'm not talking about comfort and being safe and well,
• 47:12
  I'm talking about the comfort of not moving from something.
• 47:14
  When you're getting an inkling that maybe something's quite
• 47:17
  often you tamp it down because you've been told that this
• 47:20
  there's only one route to go. That curiosity is what allows
• 47:25
  you to learn and evolve and grow and continue to expand and be.
• 47:29
  It also keeps you out of judgement.
• 47:32
  Because the thing that is so interesting to me about these
• 47:36
  dynamics in these faith spaces is they sit, they'll sit there
• 47:41
  and bang you over the head with this Bible that talks about, you
• 47:44
  know, loving your neighbor. But it is wracked with judgment
• 47:49
  about anything that's outside of this bubble of belief and
• 47:54
  judgment. And judgment is not kind.
• 47:56
  It's not loving. And and so it, you know, for me
• 48:01
  at the key turning point and this, I got this from my
• 48:03
  therapist and a little bit Ted Lasso, honestly.
• 48:07
  Oh my gosh, Ted, I love Ted Lasso.
• 48:10
  He's like be curious rather than judgmental.
• 48:13
  And so anytime I catch myself because because I know that that
• 48:17
  curiosity will lead me to continue to ask questions and
• 48:21
  search for answers and be open to possibilities.
• 48:26
  And that's how we learn and grow and honor each other.
• 48:30
  We continue to learn and evolve so that we don't continue
• 48:34
  staying in same spaces so we can like your shopping examples are
• 48:38
  such good examples. I've like there's different
• 48:40
  things that I know we've looked at in our family that it's like,
• 48:43
  you know what, we just, we're not going to go there anymore
• 48:45
  because we've learned this about that company or about that CEO
• 48:49
  organization. And that's not honoring.
• 48:52
  That's not honoring to the thing to the things that we say we
• 48:55
  value. So we're not going to do that
• 48:57
  anymore. And we don't get it perfect all
• 48:59
  the time. And it's not always right and
• 49:01
  and but it, but it it keeps you continually thinking and
• 49:05
  continually looking for ways you can continue to make your impact
• 49:09
  by honoring that. There's nothing more authentic
• 49:13
  than than being able to do that. And so thank you so much for all
• 49:16
  that you've shared and the door that that opens to this, this
• 49:20
  showing up in the world as the healthiest version of ourselves
• 49:24
  and the health, because when we're the healthiest version of
• 49:26
  ourselves, it has an impact on the greater community as well.
• 49:32
  Yeah, yeah. One thing on the the judgment
• 49:35
  piece that you mentioned that actually helps me have a lot of
• 49:38
  compassion for people who are still deeply entrenched in these
• 49:43
  religious beliefs, because I know that the judgement that is
• 49:47
  external is also very harshly pointed internal, right?
• 49:51
  And I mean, I know that when I was there.
• 49:53
  You do a number on. Yourself, yes yeah.
• 49:57
  And so I have so much compassion for people.
• 49:59
  And one thing that I'm still working on that is so hard is
• 50:04
  like everybody has a right to go on their own journey, think what
• 50:07
  they want to think and believe what they want to believe.
• 50:10
  I say it's so hard for me because I'm like, isn't it
• 50:12
  clear? Like we should all care about
• 50:13
  everybody, but like not everybody holds the same value,
• 50:16
  right? And I have to expect that.
• 50:18
  But I do see when there is, when people are judging others so
• 50:22
  harshly and condemning others so harshly, I know that that's an
• 50:25
  internal battle as well. And I think that, man, if we
• 50:30
  were in a space where we could really say, hey, again, going
• 50:34
  back to what I said, how are we making lives harder for
• 50:36
  ourselves? How, how what are things we can
• 50:39
  do to eliminate some hardships in our own lives?
• 50:42
  And if that's, you know, even thinking differently, like, what
• 50:45
  would it look like if I wasn't worried about what other people
• 50:48
  were doing? Yeah, in their bedrooms?
• 50:50
  You know, as long as it's not like, harmful or like illegal,
• 50:53
  you know what I'm saying? What would it look like if I
• 50:55
  could just spend time nurturing my own family, nurturing myself,
• 51:00
  you know, and letting people have loving relationships in the
• 51:03
  way that looks for them. Like I just have have compassion
• 51:07
  for people who judge so harshly because I I know that that
• 51:11
  internal battle and struggle is as well.
• 51:13
  Yeah, yeah. And it's really difficult to
• 51:16
  live out of your own expectations and values when you
• 51:19
  feel the pressure of that judgement.
• 51:22
  I mean, it's very difficult to release that and, and I mean,
• 51:27
  and, and being able to do do those things as such a core
• 51:30
  tenant. But yeah, you think about all
• 51:32
  the energy we spend judging and worrying about what all these
• 51:36
  other factions are doing that on a day-to-day level have no
• 51:39
  impact on your life. And, and most and those people
• 51:44
  aren't concerned about what's going on in your house.
• 51:46
  They just want to be able to live their lives in a way that
• 51:49
  feels authentic to them. And what if we took that energy
• 51:54
  and put it into making sure everyone was well and safe and
• 51:58
  honored and loved? I mean, but yeah, it is a, it is
• 52:03
  a, it's complex, but it's not, you know what I mean?
• 52:07
  We make it complex just like you said, there's so many ways we
• 52:12
  make it harder than it has to be.
• 52:14
  But thank you so much for speaking to that.
• 52:16
  And, and this really goes nicely into, you know, accepting the
• 52:20
  layered aspects of ourselves, all the pieces and parts of who
• 52:24
  we are that make up our story, the parts we love, the parts we
• 52:28
  might not love so much. But getting, and I go back to
• 52:31
  curiosity again. I had to really learn in order
• 52:34
  to really unpack the judgement and the shame and the stuffing
• 52:38
  that I was dealing with. I had to really hone in on that
• 52:41
  curiosity piece and and meet that version of myself where I
• 52:46
  was at that time with that thing I was struggling with and be
• 52:49
  like, well, given what you knew and what you were taught and who
• 52:54
  you were surrounded with and the pressures and fears you were
• 52:57
  feeling, it makes sense you made that decision.
• 53:00
  Yeah, it makes sense that you did that because based on all of
• 53:04
  these narratives, that is of of course, what you would have
• 53:07
  thought was the next right thing to do for you.
• 53:12
  And so being able to look at it, going back to kind of what you
• 53:15
  said, if like it actually creates compassion and it's but
• 53:18
  it starts with you. I think you got to do that work
• 53:21
  on you first and then you're like, oh, OK.
• 53:26
  And then it does extend that ability to show that same
• 53:29
  compassion to others. So, so talk to me about this
• 53:32
  layers part of your journey as you've been able to open up
• 53:35
  these pieces and parts and give them room to breathe.
• 53:39
  Yeah, that that compassion is big.
• 53:42
  That self compassion piece is big because I am very hard on
• 53:49
  myself. You know, I've gotten more
• 53:51
  relaxed and like easier to have more compassion with myself.
• 53:54
  But definitely growing up was very good.
• 53:57
  I follow the rules. So just like very hard on
• 53:59
  myself, very strict. And like you said, I've been
• 54:03
  able to untangle things and see why I made certain decisions.
• 54:08
  Even like there were things that I I knew, OK, like when I send
• 54:12
  me that Facebook message and I kind of knew that something
• 54:16
  wasn't right, I have to use myself for like continuing to
• 54:20
  engage with him, even though I kind of knew that wasn't right
• 54:22
  because I wasn't in A to accept that my intuition might have
• 54:26
  been telling me something different because I was taught
• 54:28
  again, don't trust your heart is deceitful, right?
• 54:31
  Don't trust yourself. We not on your own
• 54:33
  understanding. So even though I was like, well,
• 54:36
  I don't know. It sounds right.
• 54:38
  You know, it sounds like it's supposed to sound.
• 54:40
  It has the right words. And so.
• 54:42
  Yeah. Just having.
• 54:43
  A compassion for myself and forgiving myself for making
• 54:46
  those decisions and understanding that I get to be
• 54:49
  human, you know, and being human means making decisions with
• 54:55
  information that I have and the context that I have and the
• 54:58
  skills that I have, you know, and it might not always work out
• 55:03
  the best for me or, you know, others.
• 55:06
  And so forgiving myself for that.
• 55:08
  And now, you know, just working to stay in alignment with my
• 55:11
  values, which is, you know, making sure that I am cared for
• 55:15
  or making sure that others around me are cared for.
• 55:17
  But that self compassion piece is big.
• 55:19
  And that's something I have to continually remind myself just
• 55:22
  because of, you know, who I am, my personality.
• 55:25
  It's something I have to continually remind myself for
• 55:28
  and allow myself like I'm human. That means I've had a lot of
• 55:31
  experiences that inform the way I do things that I do.
• 55:35
  There are things that come up even today that I realize I'm
• 55:39
  doing or thinking in a certain way because of what I learned in
• 55:41
  church, right? Just leaving the church doesn't
• 55:44
  mean the church left me or doesn't mean things I learned
• 55:48
  left me, right? And so there are, it's, it's
• 55:53
  helpful when I can find ways to honor myself for making the best
• 55:57
  decisions that I could and like continuing to do that, you know,
• 56:00
  with like that's been a super crucial part of the journey and
• 56:04
  it continues to be and it will continue to be right.
• 56:07
  Like all of these experiences affect us in different ways.
• 56:10
  And we don't necessarily have to uproot everything, but I think
• 56:14
  being curious about it and how it affects us helps us go about
• 56:18
  our lives and try to make decisions in alignment with our
• 56:22
  values. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 56:24
  And I think it's that realization that it took years
• 56:27
  for that conditioning to take root.
• 56:30
  It is not really sick to think that I OK new course it's gone.
• 56:35
  Yeah, no, I know it's. A lot.
• 56:37
  And it was, and it's, it's during formative years too,
• 56:41
  right? Like, again, I was seven years
• 56:42
  old when I remember that book being held up and just like
• 56:45
  within the church, you know, from the beginning of my life,
• 56:48
  literally. And so not only was I in that
• 56:52
  environment for, you know, 2728 years, it was during some really
• 56:57
  formative years where I was very vulnerable and very susceptible
• 57:02
  to, you know, certain types of messaging.
• 57:05
  And that's fear, like you said. Can you imagine being a kid
• 57:07
  being scared of going to hell? Oh, spirit blind or something?
• 57:11
  Yeah. I mean, I have friends that have
• 57:14
  left, that have left those spaces that talk about the
• 57:17
  nightmares they had, you know, the and they grew up.
• 57:20
  This one friend in particular talks about growing up in a very
• 57:23
  fire and Broomstone type messaging church in Alabama and
• 57:27
  how he lived with an absolute horrifying fear that if he just
• 57:34
  didn't walk completely lockstep, he was going to help.
• 57:37
  Because that, you know, because we're still as children, when
• 57:40
  you you're still learning how to process all of these feelings,
• 57:42
  you don't have the emotional maturity.
• 57:45
  You even know the right questions to ask.
• 57:47
  And in these environments where curiosity in that's in those
• 57:51
  spaces is not encouraged, then you really don't feel like you
• 57:54
  can open up. So the amount of fear that is
• 57:57
  embedded so early on. Yeah, wide impacted as is really
• 58:03
  startling. Yeah, it is.
• 58:06
  It is. And So what I've learned is to
• 58:09
  just really have compassion and kind of hold space for the
• 58:12
  impact of that. Yeah.
• 58:14
  And also knowing and having compassion for the people around
• 58:17
  me, like my parents, they also have their own levels of
• 58:19
  exposure to different things, and they were doing their best.
• 58:22
  And you know, so not necessarily blaming anybody, but saying,
• 58:26
  hey, you know, just having compassion for myself as a kid,
• 58:29
  as a kid, like little me, you know, that's something I've
• 58:31
  talked about in therapy. Like little like what does
• 58:34
  little Das need to hear? You know, at different ages and
• 58:37
  things like that, just understanding, like you said,
• 58:40
  it's layers. It's all part of me.
• 58:42
  It's all part of my experience. And so now holding what serves
• 58:46
  me and letting go of something that was kind of ingrained, but,
• 58:52
  you know, saying, hey, like that doesn't, that doesn't serve me
• 58:55
  now. And so I'm letting go of that.
• 58:58
  Yeah. But I'm not beating myself up
• 59:00
  for believing it for so long. Right, right.
• 59:04
  Because and to as it's different, as you get to an
• 59:06
  acknowledgement and safety space, it opens the door for
• 59:10
  other things to unveil themselves.
• 59:11
  And so it's such a such a process.
• 59:14
  And so being able to accept that you're not just going to, you
• 59:17
  know, I thought when I went to therapy the, you know, in 2019,
• 59:20
  the first time, what was my third time in therapy, it the
• 59:23
  first time in this juncture of this season of life I'm in, I'm
• 59:27
  going to go for six months, get some tools and resources, be
• 59:30
  healed and be out of there. What happens is not the way it
• 59:34
  works. So even just accepting that
• 59:37
  because I was so focused on performing well and getting that
• 59:41
  check mark and being the good girl and making the right
• 59:45
  decisions and following the rules, I can relate to that.
• 59:47
  So wholeheartedly manipulate, release and accept the nuance of
• 59:51
  life and the ability to feel multiple things at one time and
• 59:57
  being able to hold all that. Yeah, such a it's such a
• 1:00:00
  process. It's such a process.
• 1:00:02
  Acceptance is. Where I got in therapy, that's
• 1:00:06
  like ultimately that's, that's it that's the thing that I need
• 1:00:09
  to do is acceptance, right? Acceptance that life is hard
• 1:00:13
  acceptance that I can't control other people's responses
• 1:00:17
  acceptance that I can't control my body all the time, right.
• 1:00:21
  How I've been having like joint issues and things like that and
• 1:00:24
  I, I can't control that I can control how I'm nourishing
• 1:00:28
  myself. I can control how I'm moving,
• 1:00:31
  right? And I can control my.
• 1:00:34
  There are patterns about these things, right?
• 1:00:36
  Like am I moving because I'm mad or am I moving because I enjoy
• 1:00:39
  it? Yeah.
• 1:00:40
  Am I finding movement that I enjoy?
• 1:00:42
  Am I finding things to do that you know, that I enjoy and
• 1:00:46
  taking care of my family and spending time with them, that
• 1:00:48
  type of thing. But just accepting that that
• 1:00:51
  life is hard and there's going to be hard circumstances and
• 1:00:55
  sometimes we just, we have limited choices and that's just
• 1:00:57
  life. But accepting that really is
• 1:01:01
  where the peace is to be had. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:06
  So good. So talk to me in living out
• 1:01:09
  feel, which is what you are doing, finding empowerment,
• 1:01:12
  embracing layers. Talk to me about the impact that
• 1:01:16
  has had on your relationship with yourself as well as your
• 1:01:19
  relationship with other people. Yeah, so kind of how I already
• 1:01:25
  talked about, I've been able to have a lot more connection for
• 1:01:28
  myself, and I've been able to embrace my curious nature a lot
• 1:01:32
  more. I realized that, you know, I've
• 1:01:34
  always had that, but, you know, it was getting shut down when I
• 1:01:38
  was young just because people didn't necessarily know how to
• 1:01:40
  handle that. And I haven't talked to my mom
• 1:01:42
  recently about it. She's like, all your questions,
• 1:01:44
  you always had questions. And now I am, you know, how old
• 1:01:49
  my mom was when I was nine years old.
• 1:01:51
  And so I'm just thinking like, I can imagine having a kid ask me
• 1:01:55
  all these questions now. So I'm like, OK, you know, it
• 1:01:58
  helps me have not only more compassion for myself, but for
• 1:02:01
  her trying to understand me, her journey.
• 1:02:06
  But it's also helped me in terms of having more fruitful
• 1:02:10
  friendships, right? Not having to be fake.
• 1:02:13
  A lot of my friendships in the church were rooted.
• 1:02:16
  And again, us following the rules and holding each other
• 1:02:18
  accountable, quote UN quote, for following these rules and
• 1:02:22
  performing, performing in a certain way.
• 1:02:24
  Because again, you know, we don't know what everybody's
• 1:02:26
  doing outside of our time together, but we had to perform
• 1:02:30
  a certain way, right? And we couldn't really be
• 1:02:32
  authentic. And so I've been able to have
• 1:02:35
  some really fruitful authentic friendships and also romantic
• 1:02:39
  relationships. Now I've been with my current
• 1:02:42
  boyfriend for 2 1/2 years and have been just able to be myself
• 1:02:48
  and be accepted for that. And that's just such a great
• 1:02:51
  feeling and a contrast to how I was in my marriage.
• 1:02:55
  And I'm able to see how a relationship can actually be
• 1:02:59
  fruitful and beneficial for me, you know, and in and just like
• 1:03:03
  pleasurable and being able to enjoy it.
• 1:03:06
  Like, those aren't reasons I was in relationships before, you
• 1:03:09
  know, but now being able to have that, it's just, it's brought a
• 1:03:15
  lot of joy to my life in the midst of all the hard things
• 1:03:18
  that are happening. Sure.
• 1:03:19
  Yeah. You've got an ability to be
• 1:03:21
  authentic and really live in alignment with you and be
• 1:03:24
  surrounded by people who want that.
• 1:03:26
  It's a support that in you that are rooting for that in you, and
• 1:03:30
  you have that reciprocity with each other.
• 1:03:32
  I love that so much. So good.
• 1:03:33
  Thank you so much for that. As we wind down, share with me 5
• 1:03:37
  activities that nourish you. So when I think of nerds, I'm
• 1:03:43
  kind of can be literal sometimes.
• 1:03:44
  So drinking water, my mom and I remember growing up, I know it's
• 1:03:50
  supposed to be rapid fire, but let me give you like a quick
• 1:03:54
  detour. Quick detour.
• 1:03:55
  I remember growing up, anytime I would tell my mom something is
• 1:03:58
  wrong, my head hurt or whatever, she would say, drink some water.
• 1:04:01
  And I'll be so annoyed because I'm like, that's not going to
• 1:04:03
  fix anything. But now that I'm older, I see
• 1:04:05
  like, it really does fix things. Yeah.
• 1:04:07
  So yeah, drinking water nourishes me this year.
• 1:04:11
  More recently it's been reading ROM coms.
• 1:04:16
  So there's so several series I'm going through.
• 1:04:19
  I've been on a kick of baking things with brown butter.
• 1:04:22
  Brown. Butter.
• 1:04:23
  So good, It's so good. It's so good, it's so underrated
• 1:04:28
  and it's so easy to do. Yes, it's so easy introduced at
• 1:04:33
  as to that a couple years ago and I it changed you made this
• 1:04:37
  brown butter cake like it changed my life.
• 1:04:40
  It's so, it's so good. It's so good.
• 1:04:43
  So that's that's been definitely nourishing me.
• 1:04:45
  Probably about the past seven months I've been like, what can
• 1:04:48
  I make with brown butter? That's been fun.
• 1:04:52
  I'm spending time with my family and friends and then also like
• 1:04:57
  watching really good TV shows. You mentioned Ted Lasso, and
• 1:05:02
  what else have I watched this year?
• 1:05:03
  Duster on HBO Mac which is really good and Paradise.
• 1:05:09
  Yes. Wasn't that intriguing?
• 1:05:12
  I can hardly intriguing. I know I can't hardly.
• 1:05:14
  I can hardly. I'll watch anything with
• 1:05:16
  Sterling in it. I he's so big.
• 1:05:19
  Yeah. I I'm, Yeah, I'm a big fan of
• 1:05:21
  his. But you have that for such a
• 1:05:22
  Yeah, I I me too. I find those.
• 1:05:25
  I love those shows that allow me to.
• 1:05:27
  It's not like a numbing thing. It's just allows me to not be so
• 1:05:32
  in my head about all that's happening in the world.
• 1:05:34
  It's like just give me a space I can escape to for a little while
• 1:05:39
  and see, you know, and get kind of wrapped up in a different
• 1:05:42
  kind of story. And it and I get the ROM con
• 1:05:45
  thing too. I can totally dive, especially
• 1:05:47
  in this this time. Yeah, I can dive into a good.
• 1:05:49
  Book like that and just get lost in the story.
• 1:05:52
  I love that story. Yeah, I love it.
• 1:05:54
  I love it and I just love also the on the reading and the TV
• 1:05:58
  just really quick. It helps me imagine new things,
• 1:06:02
  right? Like I've been in my journey.
• 1:06:04
  I've been, I would say I identify now as an abolitionist,
• 1:06:07
  right? And a lot of that is about
• 1:06:09
  imagining a new world or a different world than what we
• 1:06:13
  have and consuming like content like, you know, books and TV.
• 1:06:18
  It helps me say, oh, this was in that person's imagination and
• 1:06:21
  they just brought it to fruition.
• 1:06:22
  So like how much more can we do with our imagination and like
• 1:06:25
  looking and to try to build a new world so.
• 1:06:28
  I love that so much. I like.
• 1:06:29
  Do you think that comes from your work as an attorney?
• 1:06:31
  Because you're very much an advocate in that world of
• 1:06:34
  helping families? I actually don't.
• 1:06:38
  It's interesting because I feel like my work as an attorney has
• 1:06:42
  showed me how much the law really supports the status quo
• 1:06:49
  and how things are now. And I've learned that just
• 1:06:53
  because something is legal doesn't mean that it's right.
• 1:06:55
  And just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it's
• 1:06:58
  wrong, right? Like the law doesn't legislate
• 1:07:00
  morality. So I actually kind of see that
• 1:07:02
  as two separate things. I do love that in my work I've
• 1:07:05
  been able to really help and support people, but I don't see
• 1:07:11
  that kind of supporting like a different future, right?
• 1:07:15
  I'm going to say something totally different for for the
• 1:07:17
  future. That's not necessarily what we
• 1:07:19
  have now. Yeah, I love that.
• 1:07:21
  I love that information in that. And I knew a little bit about
• 1:07:24
  that, but I wanted you to speak to that because the nuance of
• 1:07:28
  you like, oh, wait a minute, you know, because we're brought up.
• 1:07:31
  And I know we're not, this is not rapid fire at all, but we're
• 1:07:34
  brought up. Sorry.
• 1:07:36
  No, it's OK because we're brought up in this society,
• 1:07:40
  especially in the United States, to believe all these wonderful
• 1:07:44
  things, that there's so many things that aren't addressed.
• 1:07:47
  I don't, I mean, I don't have to tell you, there's so many things
• 1:07:50
  that aren't addressed. There's so many things we're
• 1:07:52
  being pushed away from. There's so many things we don't
• 1:07:55
  talk about that we didn't learn, that we aren't addressing, that
• 1:08:00
  we aren't speaking truth to, that we aren't healing.
• 1:08:04
  And so I think too, when you work in that capacity, it's a
• 1:08:07
  really important lesson to learn that it's so much more nuanced
• 1:08:12
  than a law. There's so much more that goes
• 1:08:15
  into it. And, and laws are made by humans
• 1:08:18
  and humans have their prejudices and their biases, and especially
• 1:08:23
  in different parts of the country that inform these laws.
• 1:08:27
  And it doesn't automatically mean that they're right or, you
• 1:08:33
  know, not to be questioned. And again, that curiosity piece
• 1:08:36
  in you I'm sure brings up like, what would it look like if you
• 1:08:40
  know? But I love, Yeah, look at that
• 1:08:42
  imagine. I think we have to continue to
• 1:08:44
  be able to imagine something healthier because it's what
• 1:08:48
  gives us hope to keep moving forward.
• 1:08:52
  Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And that is how I can find hope
• 1:08:56
  in these challenging times is knowing that, you know, what we
• 1:09:01
  have now was made-up, right? Like somebody made it up and we
• 1:09:05
  can make up something different, right?
• 1:09:07
  Even if that is just us in our own lives, you know, in our in
• 1:09:11
  our communities, right? That's where it starts.
• 1:09:13
  We start with ourselves in our communities and our sphere of
• 1:09:16
  influence. Yeah.
• 1:09:17
  And, you know, hope that other people have the same right and
• 1:09:21
  start to connect based on shared values and things like that.
• 1:09:25
  But really just caring for each other in our communities, like
• 1:09:28
  that's where it starts. That's where we can envision
• 1:09:30
  what what you know a healthy, safe future looks like.
• 1:09:35
  Yeah, 100%. And you hit on something so
• 1:09:38
  important. It's starting with yourself,
• 1:09:40
  creating that healthy relationship within you, which
• 1:09:43
  then sprouts up the desire to have that healthy relationship
• 1:09:46
  with other people and your community and how you can, you
• 1:09:49
  know how you can show up in a way that impacts that in a way
• 1:09:53
  that's healthy and loving. It is it's still and then you
• 1:09:56
  have that spill out effect. It's so yeah, absolutely.
• 1:09:59
  Thank you so much for all of that 5 words on how you want to
• 1:10:03
  feel the next six months. I'll.
• 1:10:07
  Say supported, grateful, hopeful, loved and nourished.
• 1:10:16
  So good. All right, Daphne, tell people
• 1:10:19
  where they can find you, follow you how to track when your book
• 1:10:23
  is available. All of these resources will be
• 1:10:26
  on our website at embracinglayers.com on our
• 1:10:29
  resources page. Don't worry listeners, but share
• 1:10:31
  real quick right now with everybody the best places to
• 1:10:35
  find and follow you. On Instagram, you can find me at
• 1:10:39
  God Loves Divorce. That's my primary social media
• 1:10:43
  platform right now, and my blog that I mentioned is on my
• 1:10:47
  website, godlovesdivorce.com. On both of those places,
• 1:10:52
  probably more so Instagram, I'll be sharing the progress of my
• 1:10:56
  book. I'm wanting to pursue
• 1:10:58
  traditional publishing, so you know, and I'm wanting to share
• 1:11:01
  that journey so we'll see. You can see what's going on.
• 1:11:04
  There. OK.
• 1:11:05
  That sounds great. Any last thoughts you'd like to
• 1:11:07
  leave with our listeners today? Just take care of yourselves and
• 1:11:13
  take care of your people, yeah? Yeah, so good.
• 1:11:19
  Daphne McGee, thank you so much for being with me today.
• 1:11:21
  I feel like we could have talked forever.
• 1:11:22
  There's so many directions our conversation should go.
• 1:11:25
  And I'm so thankful for all that you bring to the world, how you
• 1:11:31
  show up in it, your courage, your willingness to speak up and
• 1:11:35
  be a voice in this process, in this space, in this time that
• 1:11:38
  we're living. I'm so thankful that Neva
• 1:11:41
  connected us. Can't.
• 1:11:42
  Wait. For your book to come out, Can't
• 1:11:44
  wait to see that. I know it's going to be so
• 1:11:46
  supportive. And helpful to so many women.
• 1:11:49
  And so thank you so much for how you show up in the world.
• 1:11:52
  You bet. Yeah.
• 1:11:54
  Thank you for having me and for your platform as well.
• 1:11:56
  For, you know, just showing all types of different perspectives
• 1:12:00
  and just the different things that that people are doing.
• 1:12:03
  It helps bring us together. And no, we're not alone.
• 1:12:05
  So thank you. Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:12:07
  Oh, I appreciate that so much. Thank you.
• 1:12:08
  Thank you. Yeah, that's why we're here.
• 1:12:10
  I mean, honestly, that's why we're here is to, to give voice
• 1:12:13
  to these to, to all of us, these pieces, these places, spaces,
• 1:12:18
  places I'm getting so excited and can't talk to, to be able to
• 1:12:22
  so we know how to show up for each other.
• 1:12:25
  So we know how to show up and support each other and
• 1:12:27
  apologetically and also ask for that support.
• 1:12:30
  And in doing it in ways that invite nuance and curiosity and
• 1:12:34
  love and in, in not getting locked into one way of being.
• 1:12:39
  There's so many layers, which is why I call this the Embracing
• 1:12:42
  Layers Network, to our stories of learning how to show up for
• 1:12:46
  each other in these spaces so we can create the space that we
• 1:12:49
  want this to be in the world so we can show up safely as women,
• 1:12:54
  as our full authentic selves. It's such a passion of mine and
• 1:12:57
  I know that's a passion you share as well.
• 1:13:00
  So listeners, it's all here. Go to embracinglayers.com and
• 1:13:05
  and connect with these resources.
• 1:13:07
  We're so thankful to have you here with us today.
• 1:13:11
  You know, send me messages, go to that contact form.
• 1:13:13
  If there's anything else you'd like to hear from us.
• 1:13:16
  If you're, you know, having trouble finding any of these
• 1:13:19
  sources, resources, let us know. Look out for this book from
• 1:13:22
  Daphne. You're going to want to grab it
• 1:13:23
  and read it and probably share it with some friends too.
• 1:13:25
  I'm imagining. But thanks so much for being
• 1:13:27
  with us today. Take good care of yourselves and
• 1:13:30
  we'll see you next time here on Field Podcast.
• 1:13:34
  Hello and thank you so much for being with us today on this
• 1:13:38
  episode of the Feel podcast. If you would like more
• 1:13:41
  information on how you can apply these talking points that I
• 1:13:46
  share with our guests in each episode to your own life, really
• 1:13:51
  utilize this Feel framework, go to embracinglayers.com, fill out
• 1:13:56
  our contact form, and let's set up a free 30 minute consultation
• 1:14:02
  to talk about how you can start living your most authentic,
• 1:14:06
  organic, healthy, feel fueled life.
• 1:14:10
  Thanks again for being with us today.
• 1:14:12
  We'll be back to you soon with another episode here on the Feel
• 1:14:15
  Podcast.