Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / When Should You Get Divorced?

Transcript

When Should You Get Divorced? · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi, everybody, and welcome to the dr.
• 0:07
  Psych mom. Show today, we're talking about.
• 0:10
  When should you get divorced? Which is a real, common question
• 0:13
  that I get asked. When is enough enough?
• 0:16
  And the relationship is just not salvageable versus when, should
• 0:20
  you continue to work on things? And I will get to the meat of
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  that topic. Right?
• 0:26
  After I tell you to subscribe, my most recent subscriber
• 0:29
  episode was on touchless marriages, which is pretty
• 0:33
  common among people with sexless marriage.
• 0:35
  Jizz and some people who still have sex, but just never ever
• 0:38
  touch. And it generally causes a lot of
• 0:40
  dissatisfaction and sadness. And so, we discussed that in
• 0:44
  depth, on the most recent subscriber episode, there must
• 0:46
  be about 120, other subscriber episodes.
• 0:48
  Now that you get, if you subscribe ones that are not
• 0:52
  available, if you do not subscribe.
• 0:55
  All right? So anyway, when should you get
• 0:57
  divorced common question and I'm assuming that everybody
• 1:01
  listening most people listening have kids.
• 1:03
  If not, you get divorced, when You are not happy anymore, and
• 1:07
  that's kind of a lot simpler than deciding to break up a
• 1:11
  family. It's not, you know, completely
• 1:13
  simple. Of course, when you're in it it
• 1:15
  feels like a very big deal to get divorced, you know, before
• 1:18
  having children or without children, but but it what I'm
• 1:22
  talking about, primarily is applicable to people who would
• 1:25
  also be breaking up a family and then hurting their children.
• 1:28
  So you usually need to get to a lot more dissatisfaction when
• 1:32
  you have children then you do before children in order to get
• 1:34
  divorced, right? Right.
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  Because quite obviously there's more skin in the game.
• 1:40
  So what I usually tell people is you need to work on things with
• 1:44
  with a couple's counselor, so at least you could say that you did
• 1:47
  that and hopefully you really buy into it and you need to work
• 1:51
  on your own shit to. So I obviously am biased being a
• 1:55
  therapist, but I've seen therapy be very useful.
• 1:58
  And so, I would never tell somebody that they should get
• 2:00
  divorced without having gone to therapy first.
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  And particularly If you if you think that your partner is the
• 2:09
  whole problem, then you probably need to go to therapy even more
• 2:13
  than the person who can, you know, things that there's some
• 2:15
  of the problem and things that they have stuff to work on in
• 2:18
  therapy. If you think you have nothing to
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  work on in therapy and that the entirety of the marital problems
• 2:23
  are all your partner. Then you should be in therapy
• 2:26
  more than anybody, because there is no situation like that.
• 2:29
  Where there's not some sort of dynamic that is not working.
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  That is co-created by 2. People, you know, I mean, unless
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  literally, like your partner told you, you know, I've been
• 2:42
  having an affair for 20 years and, you know, and I want out,
• 2:46
  right? Okay.
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  So I mean, did you do anything to make them have an affair for
• 2:50
  20 years? I mean, I don't know what you
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  did 20 years ago, but that would be a pretty bad fucking
• 2:54
  situation, right? So in a situation where somebody
• 2:56
  turns out to have been basically, you know, having a
• 2:59
  double life, then I guess you could say, you didn't do
• 3:02
  anything. Of course, everybody has stuff
• 3:04
  to work on but And probably you are putting your head in the
• 3:07
  sand about a lot of shit. But you know in that kind of
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  situation, maybe you don't have as much to work on it.
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  Maybe you just need to get out because the person is like not
• 3:16
  who you thought but in the much more normative situation that
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  there is coldness conflict romantic disillusionment,
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  disparity in love language, disparity in on understanding
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  empathic ruptures on both sides, both people have things to work
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  on. So in the normative sort of
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  situation that I see both people have stuff to work on.
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  And really if you work on stuff individually, that's the only
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  time where you could really say that you're going to bring your
• 3:46
  A-game to the marriage. So a common situation like is
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  where women don't want to have sex with the guy as much anymore
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  because they feel that he's not as nice to them and various
• 3:57
  ways. He doesn't engage with chores.
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  He doesn't engage as much as she wants with the kids, he doesn't
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  do this, he doesn't do that. But, you know, they've never
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  really thought about From the other perspective like what if
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  he's very upset with you because there's no affection in the
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  marriage and therefore this is making him be as worst self.
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  So thus your behaviors, making the person exacerbating their
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  behavior in a marriage. That's happens all the time and
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  of course it's exactly the same the other way.
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  When the guy says all the problems are because she's cold
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  and unemotional. But in reality the guys do a not
• 4:27
  plenty of annoying shit that he can work on, you know.
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  And this is exemplified by all of the stuff that I talked about
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  on attachment style. We're in this case Case the man
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  is the pursuer, the woman is the distance ER but both of them
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  need to work on that. So individual therapy can help
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  you but couples therapy can help you too when else when there's
• 4:48
  some sort of motivation to stay. So when you have young kids in
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  the house, you're going to, you know, really have a lot more
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  true, practical motivation to work on things then when you
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  don't and I mean there's some people have been miserable for
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  decades and they stay together even though they have adult
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  children and I've been pretty vocal in Prior.
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  It's about that's not a very healthy way to live your life.
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  Hoping that adult children are going to basically make
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  everything better for you and make up for the fact that you're
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  completely dissatisfied at home. You know, when your actual life
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  instead you you this leads to a lot of over-dependence on adult
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  children. I have a podcast called, don't
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  over invest in your adult kids, because many people do you know,
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  and so if you've been staying together, primarily because the
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  adult children will be unhappy that You're leaving.
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  Then it leads to really over and over investing in them to a
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  point. That's very unhealthy where you
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  become obsessed with them being happy and and obsessed with them
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  coming back for holidays and obsessed with all this stuff
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  because that's the only reason you're staying together is that
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  they come back for holidays. So if they want to go travel to
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  Europe, you might lose your shit.
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  You know. So anyway, if you have young
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  kids in the house, it's a pretty big motivator.
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  Also, if you have any sort of chemistry at all, that is a sign
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  that maybe you could work on. Things if you don't think the
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  person is just really repulsive to you if there is still any
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  sort you like sometimes women. They're like, yeah, he's
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  handsome, but like I don't particularly want to have sex
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  with him, all right? But at least you still think
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  he's handsome like we got something to work with, you
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  know, in a situation where they're like, I feel absolutely
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  zero toward him and he's basically kind of repulsive to
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  me not that anybody says that in front of somebody.
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  But if they say it, you know, individually well.
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  I mean there's not really going to be much coming back from
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  that, you know. Know what women are not like
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  stupid. Like they can discriminate
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  obviously between a lower sex drive and resentment and
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  frequently. They think that the lower Sex
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  Drive is primarily due to resentment, when it's also due
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  to hormonal changes, but it like they can discriminate between,
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  like, thinking the guys disgusting looking and they
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  cannot imagine ever being with him sexually again and the idea
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  that like, you know, she just doesn't feel the spark.
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  She used to that situation, you can get A cure spark, but you
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  cannot get back. Like, and I've talked about
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  this, like, if you've never been attracted to somebody that's
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  hard to become attracted to them and or if, you know, things have
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  changed to the point that you find them completely disgusting.
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  And this goes like both ways, man.
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  Who's just completely repulsed by his wife, due to weight gain
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  or due to anything? Really?
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  You know, there's not a lot of coming back from that you know,
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  but if you still think that they're pretty attractive, but
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  like you're just not particularly in the mood to have
• 7:34
  sex with them then. Then then you you have something
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  to work with there. What else?
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  When people are more open minded and they can't talk about things
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  and they can admit that they're wrong, and of course, therapy
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  can help with this. So it goes back to the first
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  thing I was talking about, open-minded people generally
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  have a lot more success in therapy and in relationship
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  repair because they find it easier to see the other person's
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  perspective. If you and/or your partner of
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  her close-minded and rigid, then it's unlikely that you're going
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  to be able to do the work and have the empathy and
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  perspective. Taking that is necessary to
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  truly repair a marriage on a deep level.
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  And that you can work on that. You can work on growing more
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  open-minded, and flexible. And you can definitely work on
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  empathy in both individual and couples counseling.
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  But if one or both of you is just like, completely
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  close-minded. They're not really does not, you
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  know, lead to anything good that.
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  I see when I'm working with clients, in terms of ability to
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  transform a marriage. If you have similar values, this
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  is also a sign that maybe there's something there to work
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  on that. It's salvageable, but if you've
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  become extremely different, you know, and a big one is
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  politically. I see that a lot when women
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  become a lot more liberal in the man becomes a lot more
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  conservative. That's a common issue that I
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  work with in couples counseling, trying to get to a midpoint
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  there that people can empathize with each other's perspectives.
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  But if you perceive that like your, your partner is completely
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  unsupportive of or dismissive of your core beliefs and your core
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  values. Then frequently that indicates
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  there is not much to work with. So, like we're talking about,
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  like, if you want an example, so many people come in and they're
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  like, listen, we just do not click like we used to wear
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  barely having sex anymore, but we really value our family and
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  we have similar values and parenting.
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  We're on the same page with a lot of stuff.
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  It's kind of just like we're friends that have lost a spark.
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  All right. Cool.
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  You know we got a lot to work with there.
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  There's a lot in the plus column and Does every relationship work
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  out? That's like that.
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  No. But many do after counseling I'm
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  talking about like from what I see and then there's the one
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  where they guy had very volatile fighting and they still have
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  sex. So that's like a common thing.
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  They're still having sex, they are and you know where there's
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  smoke, there's fire or whatever. And so they have sex and they
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  fight. So then we can learn to tone
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  down the fine, that's usually younger people you know we can
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  learn to tone down the fighting. Look at family of origin.
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  What did you see growing up? Do you even think that a
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  marriage can be calm and loving. Are there trust issues?
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  Yes, on both sides. Can we resolve those and get to
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  a place where you're raising your kids and a calm home?
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  That is something new to, you know, that would be new for you
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  and that would be very healing for you to see kids who are
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  raised in a calm home because your home was filled with crazy
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  yelling and fighting that you're replicating.
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  Now, you know people, we can really deal with that because
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  these people are still attracted to each other despite having
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  zero ability to communicate calmly, but what's on the other
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  hand is the people who don't really Have similar values are
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  fairly dismissive of each other's perspectives.
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  On top of that, there's a lack of Attraction and they don't
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  have much to try for because the kids are old enough that they're
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  about to leave the house, you know, or within five years, type
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  of thing. And so in this situation you
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  know, people do not feel like friends and they don't feel like
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  lovers and there's not much keeping them together.
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  So in that situation, do these marriages ever transform?
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  If with enough motivation or enough introspection but a lot
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  of times they don't you know. So if there's nothing there's
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  nothing really left on both sides.
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  This is like what I call the divorced in spirit couple, you
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  know, the not feeling it couple and I did my podcasts of my
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  posts on the different types of couples you see in counseling
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  and it's really hard to come back from just complete
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  disconnect and a lack of shared values because then it's kind of
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  why are you together? And so, if you feel that there
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  is anything like, if you still feel like you would go to your
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  spouse, to tell them, something funny that happened with the
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  kids, or you would still tell them something good that
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  happened at work or, you know, you you at least, you know,
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  would would, I don't know, want to smile at them if something
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  good happen to them, then you got something.
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  But if you really talk to primarily other people about all
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  the good things that happen, you tell your funny stories to other
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  people. There's no touch.
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  There is really very little Little overlapping shared
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  interests value to your emotionality is kind of not
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  directed at each other, but really only at the kids and
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  friends / family, then then it is harder to see what you could
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  work on. It's not impossible, it's not
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  impossible to turn that around but of course this just
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  loneliness and just complete disconnect is really hard to
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  rebound from. So you should be in counseling
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  before you get there, right? So if if your Already struggling
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  with sometimes feeling disconnected and lonely, but
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  it's not as bad as this dire situation that I paint, you
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  know, and describe for you right now then get into counseling
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  now, right? I mean, why wait, whether it's
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  focused more on the amplifying, the Romantic connection, or
• 13:02
  communication, or slowing down the volatility and the chaotic
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  or arguing. It doesn't matter what it's
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  focused on primarily, just you guys need to reconnect.
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  To have a shared goal. Sometimes the shared project of
• 13:17
  reinvigorating, your marriage can be very transformative for
• 13:19
  couples in and of itself, you know, especially if they're too
• 13:22
  intelligent. People that really like to work
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  on things, you know, then they could really dive deep into
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  self-actualization and really actualization of the couple.
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  But sometimes there's just too much water under the bridge and
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  too much disconnection, too many empathic ruptures.
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  I've had podcasts about empathic ruptures if you want to go back
• 13:40
  and refresh yourself with that term, but Anyway, so this would
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  be a good one to think about and to introspect about and think,
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  am I really open-minded? Can I truly work on myself?
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  Can I see what I'm bringing to the table and do I still feel
• 13:56
  some sort of tenderness and some way, even for the person that my
• 14:00
  spouse used to be? Or is it just all gone?
• 14:03
  And if it's, it's truly all gone than I would recommend
• 14:07
  individual therapy more to decide kind of what you want to
• 14:10
  do. And are there any blocks any
• 14:12
  mental or emotional? Ox or resentments that are
• 14:14
  stopping you from seeing any lingering connection that you
• 14:17
  could potentially have with your spouse.
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  But in the other situation where you were, it's definite that
• 14:22
  there is some attachment between the two of you but things are
• 14:25
  just going awry than I would recommend couples.
• 14:28
  Were you know because there's something right there to work on
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  there's motivation there's either small kids or there's a
• 14:35
  such a shared history or there's mutual respect shared values, a
• 14:39
  spark of attraction or whatever the case may be.
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  Be, you know, a friendly feel something.
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  There's something to build on, you know, there's some, there's
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  some, there's something that makes you feel that your spouse
• 14:54
  is better than other people in the world.
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  When things really are bad, is when the person kind of thinks
• 14:59
  their spouse is almost like the worst person for them, you know?
• 15:02
  And they've really gone back and thought, man, I was used to be a
• 15:05
  totally different person. I had horrible self-esteem, I
• 15:08
  picked almost the worst possible match and now I feel completely
• 15:13
  Disconnect it. Let's not everybody.
• 15:15
  You know, that's kind of a dire Bleak situation but that
• 15:18
  certainly isn't everybody listening.
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  So it's likely that, you know, statistically that, that drawer,
• 15:25
  not in that Diary of a situation.
• 15:27
  I mean, sexless marriages are only ten percent of marriages.
• 15:29
  That means 90% of people are having sex more than 10 times a
• 15:32
  year, which is obviously very low bar, but it is the
• 15:36
  definition of sexless marriage. So, so yeah, think about this.
• 15:40
  And if you're open-minded enough, you could even send At
• 15:43
  your spouse and ask them what they think about your level of
• 15:47
  conflict, you know, you could. But I mean that one, you know,
• 15:50
  that one, you kind of have to know your audience.
• 15:52
  They are. I mean, if your spouse and you
• 15:55
  are the ones who shove, who shove your conflict under the
• 15:59
  rug, and don't talk about it, then maybe you should just
• 16:01
  invite them to come to couples counseling, you know?
• 16:04
  And and say I think that we are growing more disconnected and or
• 16:08
  are struggling with volatility that were modeling for our
• 16:10
  children and I just want to get out ahead of This you know, and
• 16:14
  more people will be open to it than you think, especially if
• 16:17
  you have found somebody. And, of course, remember we
• 16:19
  always do have people in my practice best life, Behavioral
• 16:21
  Health, in terms of relationship, coaches, and
• 16:23
  therapists, and there's me but not everybody can see me.
• 16:27
  All right, I will talk to you guys soon.
• 16:29
  I hope this gave you some food for thought and have a great
• 16:32
  day, guys.