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Summer Break: Sex and Love Addiction · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

0:20
Speaker 1: Hey, tolerators, this is to all the men I've tolerated before.
0:23
Speaker 1: With Natalie Katona, the show where my guests and I
0:26
Speaker 1: chat about the ways misogyny sets up systems to where
0:30
Speaker 1: we don't trust what is happening in our bodies or minds.
0:34
Speaker 1: Today's guest is so multifaceted and talented. Brian Davis is
0:39
Speaker 1: an actor producer, hosts the podcast Secret Life, and just
0:42
Speaker 1: released her first book, Secret Life of a Hollywood Sex
0:46
Speaker 1: and Love Addict. She is here to talk about her
0:49
Speaker 1: experiences with secrets and being a love addict within the
0:53
Speaker 1: acting world. Brian, my sister and I loved prom Night.
0:57
Speaker 1: That's like my first geek out moment with you.
1:00
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I love it. I love Chrissy Lynch.
1:02
Speaker 2: She was the best.
1:03
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. And so I believe that was one
1:06
Speaker 1: of those scary movies. We went for my sister's birthday
1:09
Speaker 1: and the entire time we were looking at the murderer
1:12
Speaker 1: and we were like, cause, you know how he's in shadow.
1:14
Speaker 1: The entire time, We're like, why do we know that? Jawline?
1:18
Speaker 1: Who is that? And then it was like Jimmy from
1:21
Speaker 1: that thing you do and I remember jat us in check.
1:24
Speaker 1: I was like screaming it at the we were probably
1:27
Speaker 1: by ourselves. I was screaming it at the screen. I
1:29
Speaker 1: was like, that thing you do, that's who it is.
1:33
Speaker 2: No, we have him and I have worked together like
1:35
Speaker 2: four or five times. We literally have been in so
1:38
Speaker 2: many movies together. The other day, we were just talking
1:41
Speaker 2: about that because he's a friend and he also was
1:43
Speaker 2: in Recovery, and we were just saying, oh my god,
1:46
Speaker 2: we worked together so much. It's insane. But yes that
1:48
Speaker 2: I love prom Night and he was so funny in it.
1:51
Speaker 2: He's like the nicest guy and he's the killer.
1:53
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that he's the nicest guy because he's
1:55
Speaker 1: also like the jerk in that thing you do, so
1:58
Speaker 1: you don't want to be type cast.
2:00
Speaker 2: I remember that line too, because I remember those lines
2:03
Speaker 2: like I shame on me for kissing you with my
2:07
Speaker 2: eyes shut so tightly or something like that, and I
2:10
Speaker 2: was like, that's a good line because it's true people
2:12
Speaker 2: kiss people with their eyes shut too much, where they
2:16
Speaker 2: block out all those red flags, right, like he's an asshole.
2:19
Speaker 1: Well, and that really aligns with what we're talking about
2:23
Speaker 1: today because one of the things that I was going
2:25
Speaker 1: to share with you is sometimes I fall into this
2:28
Speaker 1: trap where I've gone without roamingtic affection so long that
2:32
Speaker 1: the moment that I have it, it's like I'm touch
2:35
Speaker 1: starved and I'm like, oh, you can treat me however
2:38
Speaker 1: you want. You can be whatever type of person you are,
2:41
Speaker 1: but like, please rub my back that way some more.
2:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, we get depleted, you know. As humans, we need connection,
2:48
Speaker 2: whether you believe it or not. I used to be
2:50
Speaker 2: one of those people who are like, I don't need anybody.
2:52
Speaker 2: I'm good by myself. I can take care of myself
2:55
Speaker 2: and if I want sex, I'll just you know, use
2:58
Speaker 2: my sexuality to get that connect. But it would be false.
3:01
Speaker 2: But when we're depleted from a connection from another human
3:05
Speaker 2: being physically, we then go into starvation. And when you
3:09
Speaker 2: finally get it, you will accept crumbs. You will accept
3:12
Speaker 2: someone that isn't really available because you depleted yourself so much. Yeah,
3:17
Speaker 2: so I get it.
3:18
Speaker 1: During COVID, Gray's Anatomy did an episode where they went
3:23
Speaker 1: into like the touch starvation that people were experiencing, and
3:26
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, now I have a term for that.
3:29
Speaker 2: Thanks Shanda, Thank Shonda Rhymes, because.
3:33
Speaker 1: It really made me recall back a relationship I had
3:37
Speaker 1: entered during the like quarantine where it was like he
3:41
Speaker 1: wasn't good in bed, he wasn't funny, he wasn't fun
3:44
Speaker 1: to be around. But my whole body would just react
3:47
Speaker 1: to getting to sit closely to someone.
3:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I even did that. I remember,
3:55
Speaker 2: you know what, when my sex and love addiction was
3:57
Speaker 2: like at the worst. I remember my dark Knight of
4:00
Speaker 2: the Soul moment when I was like, I don't even
4:02
Speaker 2: like this person as a friend, Like you are horrible
4:06
Speaker 2: to waiters. What is wrong with me? Why am I
4:08
Speaker 2: getting this chemical attraction or attachment to you when I
4:12
Speaker 2: don't even actually like you and I don't want to
4:14
Speaker 2: be friends with you, you know. And it's so frustrating
4:17
Speaker 2: that that can happen. But it's like we have to
4:20
Speaker 2: do that inner work so we don't attach ourselves to
4:23
Speaker 2: those unavailable people. But when you're going through a pandemic
4:26
Speaker 2: and no one tells you how to deal with not
4:28
Speaker 2: being touched for two years, I can see you know,
4:31
Speaker 2: this shit hitting the fan and you being like, ah, you.
4:34
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, give me anything, give me anything, And then
4:38
Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever watched the great TV
4:41
Speaker 1: series My Crazy ex girlfriend. But when she's saying that
4:44
Speaker 1: song like love Kernels, I was like, oh, I do
4:47
Speaker 1: that where it's like I'll just accept like unpopped pieces
4:50
Speaker 1: of popcorn to like gnaw on and be like this
4:54
Speaker 1: is affection every time. That's great.
4:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have that in We call it crumb like
5:00
Speaker 2: getting crumbs. That's what's in the Sex and Love Atticts
5:03
Speaker 2: Anonymous book is like you accept crumbs. Stop accepting crumbs
5:07
Speaker 2: from people in your life. So that was our term.
5:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that is such a great thing
5:13
Speaker 1: to launch into because I don't even think it's just romantically.
5:18
Speaker 1: We are almost conditioned to accept crumbs, like we all
5:22
Speaker 1: still carry into this, like into adulthood, this kindergarten mindset
5:26
Speaker 1: where it's like, well if they were nice once, they're
5:29
Speaker 1: your friend and they just get to be your friend
5:32
Speaker 1: no matter what, because sharing is caring or something.
5:37
Speaker 2: I love that because I'm dealing with my son right now.
5:40
Speaker 2: He's in pre K right and going into kindergarten and
5:43
Speaker 2: there's this girl in his class and he's like, she's
5:45
Speaker 2: mean to me, and then she's like he's but I
5:47
Speaker 2: like her and like not in a love sense, and
5:50
Speaker 2: probably my grand Grandma's would be like, oh, they like
5:54
Speaker 2: each other? Are they boyfriend and girlfriend? I'm like, stop
5:57
Speaker 2: saying that to him. There's nothing sexual about this, But
6:00
Speaker 2: there is something that happens in that grade where it's like,
6:03
Speaker 2: you don't have to be friends with her. I literally
6:05
Speaker 2: said to my son, you don't have to play with her, like,
6:09
Speaker 2: if she's mean to you, you don't have to accept
6:11
Speaker 2: a friendship with her, just because you're in the school
6:14
Speaker 2: and in the class with her. I was literally teaching
6:17
Speaker 2: him just this the other day and saying, we don't
6:20
Speaker 2: accept people that are mean to us and give us crumbs,
6:23
Speaker 2: or are nice and then mean and then nice and
6:26
Speaker 2: the mean. I was teaching my four year old that.
6:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the other day, well, and we also don't
6:32
Speaker 1: accept well, we don't. On the other side, we don't
6:35
Speaker 1: teach the little girl or little boy who is being
6:38
Speaker 1: mean that like, when you are mean, people won't be
6:42
Speaker 1: your friend, and that's okay on their part too.
6:46
Speaker 2: I say that to him. I say that to him,
6:48
Speaker 2: I say, when you are mean to people, they are
6:51
Speaker 2: not going to like you. But I also then say
6:53
Speaker 2: to him, if you're not invited to the party or
6:56
Speaker 2: people don't want to play with you. That's okay too. Yeah,
6:59
Speaker 2: you're not going to be everybody's cup of tea. But
7:01
Speaker 2: that wasn't taught to me. Now I'm sure you too.
7:04
Speaker 2: Our generation is like you need to be friends and
7:07
Speaker 2: nice to everybody and blah blah blah. And I'm from
7:10
Speaker 2: the South, so it's like you want everybody to love you,
7:12
Speaker 2: and it's like, uh, it's exhausting. And then you're going
7:15
Speaker 2: for unavailable people and that's what I just did, and
7:18
Speaker 2: then going into fantasy about what you want them to be.
7:21
Speaker 2: If you come from a depleted home like my father
7:24
Speaker 2: with my mother that weren't available, then you're even striving
7:27
Speaker 2: more for the unavailable and you become unavailable. So it's
7:30
Speaker 2: just cycle. We're just having to break with society and
7:34
Speaker 2: the roles of the genders on top of it. It's
7:37
Speaker 2: just like a hot mess. We as humans are a
7:40
Speaker 2: hot mess.
7:41
Speaker 1: It's ridiculous. Does your now I'm into your son's pre k.
7:45
Speaker 1: I write one article, okay about how we shouldn't force
7:49
Speaker 1: children to share it anymore. Like if a kid set
7:51
Speaker 1: something aside, goes to the restroom and comes back and
7:55
Speaker 1: wants that still to be set aside or wants to
7:59
Speaker 1: have like a a moment with their super special activity
8:03
Speaker 1: or something that should be more normalized than the like
8:07
Speaker 1: icky way that we go, well, no, if you're gonna
8:10
Speaker 1: play with that, just out in the open, everyone should
8:12
Speaker 1: get to play with you about that. And then, of course,
8:17
Speaker 1: because I do this with everything, I was like, yeah,
8:19
Speaker 1: that's why we're so fucked up about consent, because we're
8:22
Speaker 1: told that it's nice to share, and if you don't share,
8:25
Speaker 1: your mean And then that wrote a code in my
8:28
Speaker 1: brain that was like, if he wants to touch my boom,
8:30
Speaker 1: he should be allowed to. Sharing is caring and they're
8:33
Speaker 1: just out here, They're just out, They're just out.
8:37
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I think there's a good point and a
8:39
Speaker 2: bad point to that. I agree, like, you do not
8:42
Speaker 2: have to play. You do not if you're doing something
8:45
Speaker 2: and another kid wants to play with it, No, you
8:47
Speaker 2: do not have to share. That is one hundred percent.
8:50
Speaker 2: But I do believe if you walk away and say
8:53
Speaker 2: I'm done, and then the other kid comes and plays
8:56
Speaker 2: with it, and then you change your mind, oh, that's
8:59
Speaker 2: where you have to be like no, no, no, you
9:00
Speaker 2: are done, Now go do something else. So it's I
9:03
Speaker 2: definitely think like, you do not have to play. You
9:06
Speaker 2: do not have to get along with everybody. You do not,
9:09
Speaker 2: you know, have to be nice if someone's being nice
9:12
Speaker 2: to you. My husband hates that I say that, but
9:14
Speaker 2: I'm like, if she's mean to him, he does not
9:16
Speaker 2: have to keep being nice to her. I keep telling
9:18
Speaker 2: him just ignore her, go the other way, and he's like, Brian,
9:21
Speaker 2: you can't say that. He's gonna get in trouble in school.
9:23
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't care. I don't want my kid
9:27
Speaker 2: to be striving for someone that's mean to him for
9:29
Speaker 2: him to still be nice to them, that is not okay.
9:32
Speaker 2: He doesn't get to be mean to them. He just
9:34
Speaker 2: doesn't have to give them any mind and attention.
9:37
Speaker 1: Well, and killing for like, killing with kindness can only
9:40
Speaker 1: get so far because then it's like that person knows
9:44
Speaker 1: that you're just going to combat them with kindness. And
9:47
Speaker 1: there are people who are wired differently or have different
9:52
Speaker 1: like approaches to things who will take advantage of that,
9:55
Speaker 1: and then they find the killing with kindness people.
9:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just didn't want I don't want. I
10:02
Speaker 2: even told him my son, my four year old, I
10:04
Speaker 2: don't want him to reach outside of himself for anything
10:08
Speaker 2: to make him feel better. So it's like I allow
10:11
Speaker 2: him to have his feelings, I allow him to be upset,
10:14
Speaker 2: I allow him to be angry. Yes, he cannot be
10:17
Speaker 2: mean to me, he has to watch his words, but
10:20
Speaker 2: he can have his emotions and feelings, and he can
10:22
Speaker 2: be upset if someone doesn't like him. But he cannot
10:25
Speaker 2: reach outside of himself to make himself feel better. And
10:28
Speaker 2: that's my goal. That's what took me of God so
10:31
Speaker 2: many years to let go of, like reaching outside of yourself, people, places,
10:37
Speaker 2: and things to feel like a whole person.
10:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, educate me a little bit about love addiction.
10:43
Speaker 1: So I am in recovery for codependency. The way that
10:48
Speaker 1: lie hello, the way that I understand it is that
10:52
Speaker 1: I was conditioned to be codependent. It was a nurture.
10:56
Speaker 1: It was not a nature. Is love addictions something that
11:00
Speaker 1: we are also nurtured into or is it a chemical imbalance?
11:07
Speaker 2: Well, the addictive part is a chemical imbalance. So when
11:11
Speaker 2: I looked back at my family tree and was like,
11:14
Speaker 2: why am I addicted to love and sex? First of all,
11:16
Speaker 2: I have never had a one I stand not many
11:18
Speaker 2: sexual partners did go into fantasy a lot watch things
11:22
Speaker 2: way too young, didn't have parents that gave proper love,
11:26
Speaker 2: a machine codependency then pull it away love, anorexia, all
11:30
Speaker 2: that stuff. But when I looked back, addiction ran in
11:33
Speaker 2: my family. So it was like great great grandfather was
11:36
Speaker 2: an alcoholic. Then each generation was like a workaholic, an overeater,
11:40
Speaker 2: a codependent, sex and love addict. You know, it went
11:43
Speaker 2: that way. So, but the love addiction is definitely like nature. Right,
11:48
Speaker 2: So when you grow up into a household that doesn't
11:50
Speaker 2: teach you how to love properly, doesn't have like that
11:53
Speaker 2: supportive underneath layer of stability, then you start looking for
11:59
Speaker 2: other ways to give yourself that love and affection, and
12:02
Speaker 2: it's going into fantasy, seeing TV and movies way too early.
12:07
Speaker 2: You know, the fairy tales. I hate Disney fairy tales
12:10
Speaker 2: with so much like venom. I hate them. Yeah, like
12:13
Speaker 2: you don't sleeping beauty should not be getting kissed. Why
12:16
Speaker 2: she's asleep? First of all, that's like that's sexual assault.
12:20
Speaker 2: She did not say please kiss me, you know what
12:22
Speaker 2: I mean? Like she's asleep. So like those kind of things,
12:25
Speaker 2: it's like society conditioned looking for love, soulmate, a wedding
12:31
Speaker 2: day as a young girl. You know that whole fantasy thing.
12:34
Speaker 2: So I definitely think it's both sides. It's a chemical
12:37
Speaker 2: imbalance and a depletion in the family, and a society
12:42
Speaker 2: thing amplifies it. If that makes sense.
12:44
Speaker 1: No, that does make sense, because we do talk a
12:47
Speaker 1: lot about how well the whole podcast is framed around
12:50
Speaker 1: how our culture set up these systems, misogyny, the patriarchal
12:55
Speaker 1: system that we all live in, and then our culture
12:58
Speaker 1: formed around that, and then you are I remember watching
13:03
Speaker 1: things when I was a kid and going like, Oh,
13:06
Speaker 1: that's how that's supposed to go. It's supposed to be
13:08
Speaker 1: like highs lows. My first relationship, that's exactly how it was.
13:14
Speaker 1: We were either rocking and rolling and we were like
13:17
Speaker 1: hi on adrenaline, or one of us was screaming and
13:21
Speaker 1: we were just depleting the other one.
13:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's looked at as passionate. You're passionate that
13:26
Speaker 2: you passionately make up and it's like, no, you should
13:29
Speaker 2: not be fighting and arguing and then bliss two seconds later,
13:34
Speaker 2: Let's show some stable, consistent relationships that talk about managing money,
13:39
Speaker 2: talk about intimacy and their sexuality, talk about being there
13:43
Speaker 2: two separate people that are not a meschine. There is
13:45
Speaker 2: no soulmate situation where someone's out there in the world
13:49
Speaker 2: that's going to complete you and give you yourself worth.
13:52
Speaker 2: Society has put so much negative love addictive tendencies that
13:59
Speaker 2: I believe just from my work the last thirteen years,
14:03
Speaker 2: is like ninety percent of society are law addicts. Like
14:08
Speaker 2: through and through, I could say, like they go for
14:10
Speaker 2: the unavailable, the toxic soulmates. Then you get it and
14:14
Speaker 2: then you realize you don't even know how to sustain
14:17
Speaker 2: it because it's unrealistic. So I one hundred percent agree
14:22
Speaker 2: that the patriotic misogyny, what women have to be like,
14:25
Speaker 2: what men have to be like, what relationships look like,
14:28
Speaker 2: is all just messed up. Like we're all just messed up.
14:31
Speaker 1: And what we don't talk about is when we talk
14:34
Speaker 1: about addiction, and we've touched it a little bit it
14:38
Speaker 1: in this show, it's like, well, it's either alcohol or
14:41
Speaker 1: it's drugs, and that's what you're addicted to, and it's
14:44
Speaker 1: something outside of you that you like accidentally huffed one
14:48
Speaker 1: day and then your body couldn't deal with it anymore.
14:51
Speaker 1: But what we don't talk about is all of the
14:53
Speaker 1: ways that we're conditioned to be acceptably like acceptable ways
14:58
Speaker 1: to be addicted to things like shopping. If you're addicted
15:02
Speaker 1: to shopping, then the economy is like, thank goodness for you.
15:05
Speaker 1: You're a hero.
15:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, and post about the pic the shopping things, and
15:10
Speaker 2: you're all your bags laid out where it's like, why
15:14
Speaker 2: do you need all that shit? Like it doesn't it's
15:16
Speaker 2: going in the in the in the what is it?
15:19
Speaker 2: The waste soon and next season and it's yeah, shopping,
15:24
Speaker 2: even eating or over exercising or or like you know,
15:28
Speaker 2: working out so much or gambling is a big one.
15:31
Speaker 2: You know, going to have as many credit cards, overspending
15:35
Speaker 2: what you make. Like, there's so many addictions that our
15:38
Speaker 2: society says is a good thing. Over sexualizing yourself, the
15:42
Speaker 2: swipe left, swipe right mentality of dating right now, that
15:45
Speaker 2: is just next level addictive behavior. And you know, and
15:50
Speaker 2: then that love, looking for that unrealistic fantasy of what
15:54
Speaker 2: love looks like and putting a shiny picture of it
15:56
Speaker 2: on your Instagram and saying here's my love life when
15:59
Speaker 2: it's like a piece. Literally. I had a client the
16:01
Speaker 2: other day post this photo that looked like and I
16:05
Speaker 2: don't follow any of my clients on Instagram, but she
16:07
Speaker 2: sent it to me and there was this beautiful photo
16:10
Speaker 2: of her boyfriend and her in this beautiful location. I'm
16:13
Speaker 2: not gonna give any details. And she was calling me
16:16
Speaker 2: right after she posts the photo of how horrible their
16:19
Speaker 2: relationship was, and in my mind, I'm like, this is
16:22
Speaker 2: everything that is wrong with society. Yeah, because if she
16:25
Speaker 2: could put on like this just happened, I feel horrible this.
16:29
Speaker 2: I don't need to be with this person. It's toxic,
16:31
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. But instead it's this glossy picture that
16:33
Speaker 2: then somebody else sees and goes, oh, I have to
16:36
Speaker 2: have a relationship like that.
16:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it boggles my mind. And I openly tell
16:40
Speaker 1: people this that I will look at pictures of myself
16:46
Speaker 1: in former friendships or relationships or what jobs, and I'll
16:50
Speaker 1: look so happy and so cute that it pisses me
16:53
Speaker 1: off because I'm like, well, I know how that all
16:56
Speaker 1: played out, and now here's this beautiful photo of me,
17:00
Speaker 1: and I don't even want to be seen anymore because
17:03
Speaker 1: I actually know what was going on in my head
17:06
Speaker 1: and I unconsciously just made myself look that way so
17:11
Speaker 1: everything could be perceived as being Okay.
17:15
Speaker 2: Well, it's a survival tactic, right, we all do those
17:19
Speaker 2: things that help us get through that day. But it's like,
17:23
Speaker 2: when do you When are you doing them that are
17:26
Speaker 2: a detriment to yourself? When are you actually killing your soul?
17:30
Speaker 2: When are you like really hurting yourself and looking outside
17:34
Speaker 2: of yourself to feel better? And that's where I hit
17:36
Speaker 2: my bottom, like thirteen years ago. It's like, I can't
17:39
Speaker 2: do this anymore. I can't keep participating in what society
17:44
Speaker 2: has put on me, what men have put on me.
17:47
Speaker 2: But I have put on me the things I have
17:50
Speaker 2: done to hurt myself right and to redamage myself over
17:53
Speaker 2: and over and traumatize myself. So I just couldn't do
17:56
Speaker 2: the game anymore of what we have humans as normal.
18:01
Speaker 1: Well, and I think what part of the game is
18:04
Speaker 1: is that they make sure to deplete our adrenaline and
18:08
Speaker 1: our serotonin by keeping us changed, like chained to offices
18:12
Speaker 1: from nine to five, and we never see our families
18:15
Speaker 1: or our friends or people who would bring us joy,
18:18
Speaker 1: and we don't do anything that brings us joy because
18:21
Speaker 1: we're constantly just working. So then how easy is it
18:25
Speaker 1: to become addicted to those surges? Where it's like I
18:28
Speaker 1: haven't felt that in weeks because I've been doing the game.
18:33
Speaker 2: But do you agree with me? And I had this
18:35
Speaker 2: huge conversation with my husband who's in recovery as well,
18:38
Speaker 2: thirty three years he has and it's like, do we
18:41
Speaker 2: even know what joy is anymore?
18:44
Speaker 1: You know?
18:45
Speaker 2: That's my question, That's what I've been searching this last year,
18:48
Speaker 2: like what is actually joy? Because for so long joy
18:51
Speaker 2: look like a high, getting a new purse, buying a
18:54
Speaker 2: new house, getting a new car, going on a vacation.
18:57
Speaker 2: I'm like, anybody can have joy going on a beautiful location,
19:00
Speaker 2: but can do you have joy in everyday life where
19:03
Speaker 2: nothing is happening outside of you and you are actually
19:07
Speaker 2: intimate and connecting with another human being on this planet,
19:10
Speaker 2: whoever it is, or joy within yourself. I don't think
19:14
Speaker 2: a lot of people know what actual joy is, and
19:17
Speaker 2: I think that's what's also destroying our world, like that
19:22
Speaker 2: honest joy.
19:23
Speaker 1: As you know, I've been without AC for three weeks,
19:26
Speaker 1: so this one tough question for me to answer today,
19:29
Speaker 1: But I think I have.
19:30
Speaker 2: But joy and comfort are different, right, Comfort is one
19:34
Speaker 2: other time?
19:34
Speaker 1: But how hard is it to be joyful when you
19:37
Speaker 1: are constantly no.
19:39
Speaker 2: And that's why I get it. If you see those
19:41
Speaker 2: people in situations where life is so so, so so hard,
19:46
Speaker 2: how do you find joy? But they do find joy.
19:49
Speaker 1: They do. I I have come to like equate joy
19:54
Speaker 1: with ease. Like this past Sunday or this past weekend,
19:59
Speaker 1: I was a gaming convention with my family. But I
20:02
Speaker 1: would say that the moment that I was truly the
20:06
Speaker 1: most joyful was I got to meet a friend who
20:10
Speaker 1: had flown in from Utah to go to the Khan
20:12
Speaker 1: and they had invited me to like a TikTok creator
20:16
Speaker 1: get together, like all of these dungeons and dragon TikTokers
20:20
Speaker 1: were going to meet at a bar, and it was
20:22
Speaker 1: just easy. I'm getting to know people, they're getting to
20:25
Speaker 1: know me. We are all genuinely interested in one another. Yes,
20:30
Speaker 1: there was a D and D streamer who in my
20:34
Speaker 1: eyes is famous. I don't know if she's famous to
20:36
Speaker 1: anyone else. I did stare at the back of her head,
20:39
Speaker 1: and that did also bring me joy because I was like,
20:42
Speaker 1: I'm in the same bar as her, and I think
20:45
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna like take a moment and just take
20:48
Speaker 1: in her energy and carry that with me forever. But
20:53
Speaker 1: it was one of those things where no one had
20:56
Speaker 1: an agenda. And I think so often, especially creator, Yeah,
21:00
Speaker 1: we fall into this thing where it's like, I mean,
21:04
Speaker 1: my friend Annie one time said she's like, I'll fully
21:06
Speaker 1: admit it, like I'm a content whore. And I'm like, hey,
21:09
Speaker 1: me too, Like if it's gonna look good and our
21:13
Speaker 1: livelihood or our jobs are going to like be buffeted
21:19
Speaker 1: by that, then I'm a content whore too. But we
21:22
Speaker 1: all just like I just told her, I was like,
21:25
Speaker 1: I want to friend selfie, Like I want to walk
21:27
Speaker 1: away from this weekend knowing that, like I got to
21:30
Speaker 1: meet my friend in person, and now we have a
21:32
Speaker 1: photo to commemorate it. And it's that it's like feeling
21:38
Speaker 1: happy in the moment with all of the agenda of
21:42
Speaker 1: the society around us stripped away from it.
21:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree one hundred percent, one hundred.
21:48
Speaker 1: Percent, but it's hard to get there.
21:50
Speaker 2: It is hard to get there. And I think when
21:53
Speaker 2: you are so in that bubble and wanting, you know,
21:56
Speaker 2: to succeed, to drive, to look a certain way, to
22:00
Speaker 2: to be one of right, it's so hard to go
22:03
Speaker 2: the other way and just be like, I mean, I
22:06
Speaker 2: don't want to take a picture like if I'm in
22:08
Speaker 2: pure joy, I actually don't want to take a picture. No,
22:11
Speaker 2: I don't want to document it. I don't want to
22:13
Speaker 2: put it on social media, Like I don't want to
22:16
Speaker 2: do those things because it's mine and when I put
22:19
Speaker 2: it out there, it feels like it doesn't belong to
22:23
Speaker 2: me and there is an agenda. But I get it. Yeah, No,
22:25
Speaker 2: it's hard.
22:27
Speaker 1: My sister made a good point. We were watching the
22:29
Speaker 1: costume parade for all the cosplayers and this guy had
22:32
Speaker 1: like wedged himself like right in front of her and
22:36
Speaker 1: was filming the whole thing. And she goes, what the
22:39
Speaker 1: hell is the point? Like are you really going to
22:41
Speaker 1: sit at home and watch strangers walk by in their
22:44
Speaker 1: costumes like to relive it or whatever? And I was like,
22:49
Speaker 1: I have gotten so much better about that because I
22:52
Speaker 1: also started to get pissed about watching concerts through other
22:56
Speaker 1: people's phone screens. So I'll go, I'll take my three
23:02
Speaker 1: photos of Garth Brooks to be all like see and
23:04
Speaker 1: now you'll have a memory every year come up to
23:08
Speaker 1: be like you got to see Garth Brooks. Good for you, girl.
23:12
Speaker 1: But then I'm done. Then I put it away. It's
23:14
Speaker 1: like I got my two or three photos, maybe a
23:17
Speaker 1: video of my favorite song, and then it's like just
23:21
Speaker 1: be there.
23:23
Speaker 2: And that's that's what my husband and I lean into,
23:26
Speaker 2: Like we actually don't post a lot about each other,
23:30
Speaker 2: videos of our son. I put up some pictures and stuff,
23:32
Speaker 2: but mostly it's just like the book are acting stuff,
23:36
Speaker 2: but I'm really trying to like be in the moment
23:39
Speaker 2: and not be videoing it or making there's a document
23:44
Speaker 2: of it. So somebody sees that I was doing something
23:46
Speaker 2: in my life, so I agree. And that took a
23:49
Speaker 2: while because for I think like five years, I was
23:52
Speaker 2: doing it and then I'm like, I can't do this anymore.
23:54
Speaker 2: It's it's so disconnected from the value system that I
23:58
Speaker 2: want to carry in this lifetime.
24:00
Speaker 1: Well, and I think what's hard to is there's always
24:04
Speaker 1: this narrative in my head that even if you're not
24:08
Speaker 1: putting out and showing off, people are just going to
24:11
Speaker 1: read it in your face like, ah, she's just doing
24:14
Speaker 1: that for the hot girl shit moment of it all.
24:16
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, I was doing it because I
24:19
Speaker 1: like Garth Brooks, and I can't help it that I'm
24:22
Speaker 1: also a hot girl. So I can't help it that
24:24
Speaker 1: this qualifies as hot girl. Shit, it's not my fault.
24:29
Speaker 2: Well, let them think of what they want that I
24:32
Speaker 2: don't care, Like, do it for you if you enjoy
24:35
Speaker 2: doing it, but if you are doing it in an
24:37
Speaker 2: inauthentic way to like prove you are worthy, That's where
24:41
Speaker 2: I think for me, it's a problem.
24:43
Speaker 1: And I think we conflate that with how we really
24:47
Speaker 1: just will choose to show love. My mom and I
24:51
Speaker 1: fall into this category a lot where if we go
24:54
Speaker 1: the extra mile to say hello to someone, or like
24:58
Speaker 1: we make sure to hone in onto someone and really
25:02
Speaker 1: take the time to like have a conversation with them,
25:05
Speaker 1: but just in the crowded room or whatever, we're the
25:09
Speaker 1: narrative that we have been painted with is like, oh,
25:13
Speaker 1: you know, they showed up and now they have to
25:16
Speaker 1: like be the bell of the ball or whatever. And
25:18
Speaker 1: it's like I was just talking to my aunt, I
25:21
Speaker 1: was just checking in with her. But it's such an
25:24
Speaker 1: ugly perception that we all carry with us that like,
25:28
Speaker 1: well everyone's fronting like nothing is genuine.
25:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, that I don't think is right either, nothing is genuine,
25:38
Speaker 2: But I do believe like that is what society is
25:43
Speaker 2: expecting them, especially in Hollywood. You know when I write
25:46
Speaker 2: about it a lot like the comparedess bear in chapter
25:49
Speaker 2: seven that I talk about and like what we have
25:52
Speaker 2: these unrealistic expectations on ourselves and others then make it
25:57
Speaker 2: feel disingenuine, because most of the time it is disingenuine.
26:01
Speaker 2: So it's like this weird balance of like do you
26:03
Speaker 2: take people and their authentic self or do you like
26:06
Speaker 2: have that those judgmental thoughts.
26:10
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just had a conversation for the podcast with
26:15
Speaker 1: a man named John Lee Brodie, and he was like
26:17
Speaker 1: ian Hollywood to high school. He goes, Unfortunately, you just
26:22
Speaker 1: end up in all of these pitfalls, whether or not
26:25
Speaker 1: your mindset is still in high school. You can't control
26:29
Speaker 1: if the person who's in charge of the room is
26:33
Speaker 1: always in a either like Hollywood mindset or an out
26:37
Speaker 1: to get someone mindset. There's just so much out there
26:41
Speaker 1: that we can't control how other people are conditioned.
26:45
Speaker 2: No, I mean no, you can't control and how anybody's
26:49
Speaker 2: condition I can't control my son, my four year old son.
26:51
Speaker 2: I can't control him. I can't control my husband or
26:54
Speaker 2: anybody else. I have to just show up as my
26:57
Speaker 2: authentic self, be open, and have my boundaries, being open
27:02
Speaker 2: and having boundaries and then just see what arrives, see
27:07
Speaker 2: how they arrive, and then see the red flags, the
27:10
Speaker 2: green flags and all that stuff with friends, with family members,
27:13
Speaker 2: all of it, all of it rangers, Hollywood producers, Hollywood directors.
27:18
Speaker 1: And then just like and I think what ends up
27:21
Speaker 1: happening too is we're conditioned to be like, well, walk
27:24
Speaker 1: away and then think was sad enough? And I think
27:27
Speaker 1: we should be walking away from situations and going damn,
27:31
Speaker 1: I did it and it was enough in my head.
27:34
Speaker 2: Well, whatever it is is what it's supposed to be.
27:37
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
27:38
Speaker 2: Right, Like we always think, oh I didn't do enough,
27:40
Speaker 2: or that wasn't enough, or it didn't turn out this way,
27:43
Speaker 2: and it's like, no, it actually is exactly the way
27:45
Speaker 2: it is supposed to be. And when we accept that,
27:47
Speaker 2: we can walk away in a sense where it's like
27:50
Speaker 2: it's like it's in God's hands or the Universe's hands
27:54
Speaker 2: or whatever you want to call it.
27:55
Speaker 1: Yep, I did it. I collected that energy and I
27:58
Speaker 1: threw it right back out.
28:00
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly.
28:01
Speaker 1: Yeah. So when you're in the very beginning of kind
28:08
Speaker 1: of discovering this about yourself and in recovery, what does
28:12
Speaker 1: recovery look like?
28:15
Speaker 2: Well, it's hard. I mean recovery of sex and love addiction.
28:18
Speaker 2: And I'm not going to say like it's harder than
28:20
Speaker 2: any chemical addiction. It's just usually underneath the chemical addiction
28:23
Speaker 2: of drugs and alcohol, there's a relationship problem. So they
28:27
Speaker 2: really cause law sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, the PhD
28:31
Speaker 2: of all the twelve step programs, because you take away
28:34
Speaker 2: the drugs and alcohol, there's like a codependency or an
28:38
Speaker 2: alanon issue, and then you take away that and you see,
28:40
Speaker 2: oh god, it's all relationships. It's tied to my sexuality,
28:44
Speaker 2: my intimacy, my self love, And that's what sex and
28:46
Speaker 2: love AX is. It's about finding yourself to then have
28:51
Speaker 2: relationships with other people. But we are so depleted, usually
28:55
Speaker 2: as addicts, with no relations of self, so it's like
28:59
Speaker 2: developing that. So when you first go into recovery of
29:02
Speaker 2: sex and love addiction, it's like you're dying. Yeah, your
29:06
Speaker 2: whole sense of self is dying, Your identity is dying.
29:09
Speaker 2: The relationships in your life are dying because most of
29:12
Speaker 2: them are probably toxic and enmeshinge and codependent and all
29:16
Speaker 2: of that. So you know, for me and I write
29:19
Speaker 2: about it in chapter three. My first nine months of
29:23
Speaker 2: my recovery, I cried every day. I had to get
29:26
Speaker 2: rid of any guy friends, any sexual acting out, whether
29:30
Speaker 2: it even be masturbation or anything like that, touch anything.
29:35
Speaker 2: I had to get rid of everything, really just go
29:38
Speaker 2: into myself, do therapy twice a week, do twelve step meetings,
29:43
Speaker 2: work step work. And I cried every day. I'm not kidding,
29:46
Speaker 2: like I'm talking like not just like a little tears
29:48
Speaker 2: I'm having a hard day. It's like ugly cry where
29:51
Speaker 2: you're like like from your soul. And I woke up
29:56
Speaker 2: one morning after nine months, and it was just like,
29:59
Speaker 2: I all that trauma that happened to me and I
30:03
Speaker 2: did to other people, and all that stuff that I've
30:05
Speaker 2: done over the years to fill this addiction, to fill
30:08
Speaker 2: this attention, validation, control power over other people, because inside
30:14
Speaker 2: I felt so powerless and empty and depleted.
30:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, because what do you do with when you're
30:21
Speaker 1: in withdrawal for attention from other people like that? There's
30:27
Speaker 1: not a pill for that. There's not like a patch
30:30
Speaker 1: where it's like nicotine withdrawal is a real bitch, have
30:33
Speaker 1: some gum, Like there's nothing.
30:36
Speaker 2: No, there's nothing there's no like methadone clinics. You know,
30:41
Speaker 2: there's no like. And here's the thing with this addiction.
30:45
Speaker 2: Then you have to go back and go, Okay, how
30:48
Speaker 2: do I have healthy relationships? How do I show up sexuality?
30:52
Speaker 2: What is my sexuality? How do I show love? Do
30:55
Speaker 2: I go for the unavailable? Am I looking for this fantasy?
30:58
Speaker 2: Do I go into fantasy in my head?
31:00
Speaker 1: Wow?
31:01
Speaker 2: With somebody out? And so you walk outside in this
31:04
Speaker 2: world and just imagine if you are addicted to alcohol,
31:07
Speaker 2: there's like vodka bottles everywhere, and you have to go
31:10
Speaker 2: and interact with those vodka bottles or snorts of coke
31:14
Speaker 2: or heroine, like you have to imagine it like that.
31:17
Speaker 2: So when I go out into the world, my addiction
31:19
Speaker 2: is people, it's attention, validation, love like film me, give me,
31:24
Speaker 2: give me your energy, make me feel worthy. Right when
31:27
Speaker 2: you take that away and you go through an abstinence period,
31:32
Speaker 2: it's called a withdrawal period, Like I said, do you
31:35
Speaker 2: then have to bring it back. I can't stay a
31:37
Speaker 2: hermit in my house, like I have to go to
31:40
Speaker 2: the grocery store. I know how to interact properly with
31:42
Speaker 2: other people. So what that would look like I would
31:44
Speaker 2: go to I would go to restaurants and not be
31:47
Speaker 2: able to make eye contact with the waiter because I
31:50
Speaker 2: was always giving off that energy of flirt with me
31:52
Speaker 2: like ah, like just cause, because society taught me that
31:56
Speaker 2: as a woman. And so it was really brutal, like
32:00
Speaker 2: the bringing it back in a healthy way, like having
32:04
Speaker 2: your boundaries when you actually want to say no and
32:07
Speaker 2: not maybe or yes, like no with a period, not no,
32:10
Speaker 2: but you know no. It was really, really, really hard,
32:13
Speaker 2: and I was in a relationship. I was living with
32:16
Speaker 2: my boyfriend at the time, Oh my god on top
32:18
Speaker 2: of it, so we didn't have sex for the first
32:20
Speaker 2: year of my recovery. So it was really hard if you.
32:24
Speaker 1: Can imagine no. And then I'm also thinking about grappling
32:29
Speaker 1: that as a woman where almost my sexuality offers me
32:34
Speaker 1: some safety within the world because then I can craft
32:38
Speaker 1: what I want to get out of my day or
32:41
Speaker 1: that relationship, because I've been conditioned to know how to
32:44
Speaker 1: weaponize myself. Yeah.
32:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that power and control. I mean, that's the
32:50
Speaker 2: main thing was for me, is like if I can
32:52
Speaker 2: have feel some kind of power and control over you,
32:55
Speaker 2: I then feel worthy. I then feel good enough. I
32:58
Speaker 2: feel good in my skin. It's what we wear, it's
33:01
Speaker 2: how we do our makeup, it's how we walk, it's
33:03
Speaker 2: how we communicate with other people. All those things we
33:07
Speaker 2: use as weapons to get what we want in this world.
33:12
Speaker 1: And then to just have to like strip that all away.
33:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh it's brutal. I mean it's just like me
33:20
Speaker 2: telling a woman, which I say, can you not go
33:23
Speaker 2: out and flirt today? Can you not go out and
33:25
Speaker 2: wear heels, are red lipstick? And be okay? If I
33:28
Speaker 2: took away all your looks and took away the beautiful
33:33
Speaker 2: cool things you say or the cool girl you act, like,
33:35
Speaker 2: if I took that all away, would you be okay?
33:38
Speaker 2: A nine to nine percent of the time, the people
33:40
Speaker 2: I work with are like, no, no, I cannot do that.
33:43
Speaker 2: I mean, just for me, my therapist is like, can
33:46
Speaker 2: you not wear eyeliner? I was like no. She's like,
33:49
Speaker 2: it's like your war paint, And I said, yeah, I
33:52
Speaker 2: don't want people to really see me like myrtival, you know.
33:56
Speaker 2: And it took me the longest time to come into
33:58
Speaker 2: her office, like eight years to not wear eyeliner.
34:01
Speaker 1: Well, and then you're trying to so then you're trying
34:04
Speaker 1: to discover yourself right, And so much of how we
34:09
Speaker 1: discover ourselves or learn about ourselves is how we present
34:12
Speaker 1: ourselves to the world too. So one of the like
34:16
Speaker 1: huge ways that I express myself when I know it's
34:19
Speaker 1: not gonna sweat right off into this humid home is eyeshadow.
34:23
Speaker 1: Like I love matching eyeshadow to my outfit and being
34:26
Speaker 1: like I get to color on my face today. But
34:29
Speaker 1: if that's also an invitation to a trigger, then it's like, well,
34:36
Speaker 1: how do I get to express myself without also walking
34:41
Speaker 1: myself into a trap, Like that's gotta be such a
34:45
Speaker 1: mind wow.
34:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, because then as so, I didn't wear the eyeliner
34:49
Speaker 2: right to her, and I felt completely naked and just like, ah,
34:53
Speaker 2: you can really see me. And then I realized, oh,
34:57
Speaker 2: I can not wear ey and it took years. I
35:00
Speaker 2: cannot wear eyeliner and do it for me, and I
35:02
Speaker 2: can wear eyeliner and do it for me. I can
35:04
Speaker 2: wear heels, but I do it for me. So it's like,
35:08
Speaker 2: do you do it for you or do you do
35:11
Speaker 2: it for this fantasy, this vision, what people expect of you,
35:16
Speaker 2: what society puts on you, all of that stuff, or
35:18
Speaker 2: your addiction or to attract what you want to attract.
35:22
Speaker 2: Then that's where you have to do the work to
35:24
Speaker 2: take it away. You take it away and see how
35:27
Speaker 2: you feel what comes up for you, go through that
35:30
Speaker 2: process of whatever healing or feelings come up that you
35:33
Speaker 2: haven't dealt with, and then you bring it back in
35:35
Speaker 2: a way where it's healthy, where you're not using it
35:38
Speaker 2: as a weapon or a survival tactic in this world.
35:42
Speaker 2: And that's the difference. But you have to take it
35:44
Speaker 2: away first. That's the hard part. People don't want to
35:47
Speaker 2: take it away, and they're like, Okay, I look like this,
35:49
Speaker 2: I dress sexy like this, but I do it for me.
35:51
Speaker 2: I know, I do it for me. This is how
35:52
Speaker 2: I feel good about myself. And it's like, okay, but
35:54
Speaker 2: if you didn't dress like that for a period of time,
35:57
Speaker 2: how would you actually feel about yourself?
35:59
Speaker 1: Right? And how would you know if you've made this
36:02
Speaker 1: the norm and you've never done without and you've always
36:05
Speaker 1: made sure to be have your best face on whenever
36:08
Speaker 1: you go out. Because I remember how we were raised,
36:11
Speaker 1: like I would come downstairs and my mom would look
36:14
Speaker 1: at me and go, why would you Yeah, why would
36:17
Speaker 1: you go to the restaurant? And that t shirt and
36:21
Speaker 1: I look being like, it's just like a band T
36:24
Speaker 1: shirt I got at college, and she'd be like, no,
36:26
Speaker 1: go upstairs, put on something nice. We are going out,
36:32
Speaker 1: I know.
36:33
Speaker 2: And it's like, where do you just allow your kid
36:35
Speaker 2: to be who they are and not have that expectation
36:38
Speaker 2: on them or they had to be a certain way.
36:41
Speaker 1: Or when do you draw the line between like, yes,
36:44
Speaker 1: you know, prizing yourself a certain way if you're going
36:47
Speaker 1: out or whatever that aligns to the occasion, but how
36:51
Speaker 1: do you also disclose to your kid that it doesn't
36:53
Speaker 1: really matter because people might not even be fucking looking
36:57
Speaker 1: at you, And then that also should be an anxiety
37:01
Speaker 1: point with you totally.
37:03
Speaker 2: So it's like you're damned if you do sometimes and
37:05
Speaker 2: you're damned if you don't.
37:07
Speaker 1: But yeah, just like stripping all of that away and
37:10
Speaker 1: almost the thing that you've built your identity around and
37:14
Speaker 1: then going, well, fuck, do I like scary movies or
37:19
Speaker 1: do I like that someone will hold my hand during
37:21
Speaker 1: the scary movie like.
37:23
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, And you have to strip it all away first,
37:26
Speaker 2: that's the part people don't want to do that. You
37:28
Speaker 2: have to strip it all away and see is this
37:31
Speaker 2: really me? Or is this what society has taught me
37:34
Speaker 2: to be.
37:35
Speaker 1: It's like that scene in Runaway Bride where he asks.
37:38
Speaker 2: Her what type, what kind of eggs? Yeah, and she.
37:41
Speaker 1: Has to try all of the eggs, and I'm like,
37:43
Speaker 1: I would hate to eat a table full of eggs.
37:47
Speaker 2: I love eggs, so I would love that. But my
37:49
Speaker 2: husband would hate it too, he'd be like it.
37:52
Speaker 1: But was there anything so when you got to kind
37:55
Speaker 1: of rebuild yourself after you had stripped it all away,
37:58
Speaker 1: was there anything that's surprise do you that you liked
38:01
Speaker 1: about yourself or didn't like anymore?
38:05
Speaker 2: Oh my god, there are so many things that I
38:07
Speaker 2: had to let go of, like the facade you know
38:10
Speaker 2: that I'm a very private person. I have always said, like,
38:13
Speaker 2: I'm a very I don't like people to know me.
38:15
Speaker 2: I'm a very private person. And then now I have
38:17
Speaker 2: a podcast and wrote a book, you know, based on
38:19
Speaker 2: my life and do all these interviews, and it's like, no,
38:23
Speaker 2: I actually have been craving connection for the longest time,
38:26
Speaker 2: an authentic, raw connection and a real connection that I
38:29
Speaker 2: was just terrified that people would not like me or
38:32
Speaker 2: abandon me. And I think because now I have so
38:34
Speaker 2: much self love that you can like me or dislike
38:38
Speaker 2: me and have your judgment and that's okay. And it
38:41
Speaker 2: took me the longest time. But then it was things
38:43
Speaker 2: like like, I, what was one of the things. I Oh,
38:48
Speaker 2: my god, I just had it in my head and
38:49
Speaker 2: I forgot, but there was something that I was like, Oh,
38:52
Speaker 2: I thought I liked that, and I don't like it,
38:54
Speaker 2: but I'll remember it again and minute it will pop
38:57
Speaker 2: back in my head.
38:58
Speaker 1: That genuine, raw connection is also something that I feel,
39:03
Speaker 1: so I feel it's one of those weird things where
39:05
Speaker 1: we live in the year twenty twenty two, so so
39:07
Speaker 1: many people are connecting via the computer, and then you're
39:12
Speaker 1: making these connections via the computer. It's kind of like
39:16
Speaker 1: how guys will tell you whatever the fuck they want
39:18
Speaker 1: on a dating app because they have the phone to
39:20
Speaker 1: hide behind. So you kind of also break down those
39:24
Speaker 1: walls between the people that you know from far away.
39:27
Speaker 1: But I've been looking at people close to me, I mean,
39:29
Speaker 1: and just like sitting in rooms with people and being like,
39:34
Speaker 1: why do I feel so lonely? Like it's that coming
39:38
Speaker 1: out of when you're forming real, genuine connections, and then
39:43
Speaker 1: you have to look at the other connections that you
39:45
Speaker 1: have built and go no one really asks anything real
39:50
Speaker 1: about me during the course of my day.
39:55
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's just a catch twenty two though,
39:57
Speaker 2: because I agree. You know, I've gotten really intimate and
40:01
Speaker 2: raw with people I've met online are interviews and just friends.
40:05
Speaker 2: But it's just like, but something else happens to us
40:08
Speaker 2: when we're in person with people, and we're almost scared
40:11
Speaker 2: to get that authentic and raw, So there's still a barrier,
40:15
Speaker 2: So you don't really feel full intimacy until you're in
40:19
Speaker 2: front of another human being. I believe this is just
40:23
Speaker 2: my belief. You can take it or leave it, but
40:25
Speaker 2: that's my truth. Is like me and you sitting in
40:28
Speaker 2: front of each other right now, I would be feeling
40:30
Speaker 2: so much more anxiety us in person, like saying all
40:34
Speaker 2: these things, because you're even seeing me more and we're
40:37
Speaker 2: in each other's energy and space. So I still believe
40:41
Speaker 2: people are trying to learn how to be that authentic
40:43
Speaker 2: and real in a person. And is the computer? Is
40:46
Speaker 2: the Internet helping us connect in a different level, yes,
40:51
Speaker 2: but is it still real intimacy? I believe not. But
40:54
Speaker 2: I did think of the thing I meant to tell
40:56
Speaker 2: you so for it that after all my work, like
41:00
Speaker 2: I didn't want to do sex scenes anymore in my work,
41:03
Speaker 2: Like I did this sex scene in the middle of
41:06
Speaker 2: my recovery. I'm still in recovery. I still go to
41:09
Speaker 2: twelve step in sex and love adics anonymous, you know,
41:12
Speaker 2: I do all those things. But after the first year,
41:15
Speaker 2: I started working as an actor again because I was
41:18
Speaker 2: willing to give up my career because my therapist is like,
41:21
Speaker 2: you pick the worst career for your addiction. You're like
41:23
Speaker 2: attention validation, outside sexuality, all of that. Actress is the
41:28
Speaker 2: worst career rejection, all of it. And so when I
41:32
Speaker 2: got done and I went and did this movie I'm
41:35
Speaker 2: not going to say where. It was across the country,
41:38
Speaker 2: and I had a sex scene and I started having
41:41
Speaker 2: a panic attack in my trailer and I called my boyfriend,
41:45
Speaker 2: who's my husband, we've been together for seventeen years, and
41:47
Speaker 2: I said, I don't want to do these scenes anymore,
41:50
Speaker 2: Like I just don't want to, and he's like, you
41:54
Speaker 2: don't have to. And I had to do that scene
41:56
Speaker 2: because I signed a contract and I couldn't get out
41:58
Speaker 2: of it. I called my lawyer. But ever since then,
42:01
Speaker 2: I haven't done any of those scenes. That's like I
42:03
Speaker 2: just don't want to do that anymore. So that was
42:06
Speaker 2: one thing.
42:07
Speaker 1: That's awesome though. Yeah, and that you again like you
42:11
Speaker 1: muscled through the one and you're like, Okay, I can
42:14
Speaker 1: rationalize that I have to do this one, but this
42:16
Speaker 1: one will be my last one. Yeah, Because I think
42:19
Speaker 1: even with all of the like when they call them
42:22
Speaker 1: like intimacy coaches, where now they have like babysitters on
42:26
Speaker 1: sets for intimate scenes, like you could have twenty two
42:31
Speaker 1: people staring at me, but I'm still getting touched intimately.
42:36
Speaker 1: I'm still like acting out things that my brain knows
42:40
Speaker 1: that I enjoy and all of it. Yeah, it's got
42:45
Speaker 1: to be really hard to just like be like I
42:48
Speaker 1: can't block all of that out. I don't want to
42:51
Speaker 1: be doing it anymore. Yeah.
42:54
Speaker 2: I mean it's all based in fantasy, and you do
42:56
Speaker 2: have to go into your mind whether it's a closed
42:58
Speaker 2: set or not, which much of the time are close sets.
43:01
Speaker 2: I've never had a bad experience and any of the
43:04
Speaker 2: sex scenes that I've done, you know, having an intimacy coordinator,
43:08
Speaker 2: I'm glad they're they're here now, But I personally haven't
43:11
Speaker 2: had a bad situation where I felt disrespected. It's just
43:15
Speaker 2: I thought in that moment, I don't even own my
43:19
Speaker 2: sexuality and that part of me. To then go and
43:23
Speaker 2: put it on screen felt so disingenuine and not connected
43:28
Speaker 2: to me, and I didn't want to give it away
43:30
Speaker 2: anymore when it was mine. Do Does that make sense?
43:34
Speaker 1: That does? It makes a lot of sense, the fantasy
43:38
Speaker 1: part of it all. Yeah, So what is your stance
43:41
Speaker 1: on fantasy now? Because we have such a romanticized version
43:45
Speaker 1: of that word, where it's like date four and people
43:48
Speaker 1: are like, tell me your wild one, Like, what's the
43:51
Speaker 1: one that you think will scare off everybody?
43:55
Speaker 2: You know, I really cannot go into fantasy. That to
43:58
Speaker 2: me is like a shot of heroin, Like I am
44:01
Speaker 2: not allowed to have unrealistic expectations what things should look like,
44:07
Speaker 2: you know. I really have to stay in the present
44:09
Speaker 2: because that is like me shooting heroin fantasy. It's my
44:12
Speaker 2: thinking that's sick, right, It's not. It's not the drinking.
44:16
Speaker 2: It's the thinking, is what we say, but my drinking
44:18
Speaker 2: as people. But I can't go into fantasy. I can't
44:22
Speaker 2: hear about you know, those things like if I'm hanging
44:25
Speaker 2: out with the girlfriends and stuff, I don't really want
44:27
Speaker 2: to hear about your sexual acting out or what you're
44:30
Speaker 2: it's not healthy for me. So I have to keep
44:32
Speaker 2: those boundaries and bottom lines really really close to my chest,
44:36
Speaker 2: and I have to just you know, I'll be like, okay, here,
44:40
Speaker 2: this is this is what I can and cannot say.
44:42
Speaker 2: But I really try not to go into fantasy about
44:45
Speaker 2: anything act.
44:46
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense and which sucks, just.
44:50
Speaker 2: So you know, because reality ain't fun. Like if you
44:53
Speaker 2: find yourself like, oh, daydreaming of this is gonna happen,
44:57
Speaker 2: or even negative fantasy like oh the and this is
45:00
Speaker 2: gonna happen and this is right, Like we all try
45:02
Speaker 2: to like figure it out before we worry it or
45:05
Speaker 2: we like, oh this can like what if this and
45:08
Speaker 2: if I get this and blah blah blah. But for me,
45:10
Speaker 2: that's a drug. It's literally it's it will take me
45:15
Speaker 2: to my knees because reality is so hard to stay present,
45:19
Speaker 2: and social media helps it really does that fantasy. So
45:23
Speaker 2: I can't scroll on social media, I can't look at
45:26
Speaker 2: anybody else's stories or anything like that because I'll go
45:29
Speaker 2: into fantasy. No, it's cutting you off.
45:32
Speaker 1: Sorry, No, you're okay, because that's how I disassociate disassociate.
45:37
Speaker 1: I take what's going on around me and then I
45:41
Speaker 1: rewrite it in my head and be like would this
45:43
Speaker 1: make it better or worse? Like if I just add
45:46
Speaker 1: this one element into it, is now what's going on better?
45:50
Speaker 1: Or is it worse? And like I've played that game
45:53
Speaker 1: all day long.
45:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's fantasy and people do it all the time,
45:57
Speaker 2: and it's like so dangerous because we're not where we
46:01
Speaker 2: actually are. So every time I enter a room, I
46:04
Speaker 2: have to stay to myself. Be in this room, you're
46:07
Speaker 2: nowhere else. Don't go thinking about what happened two minutes ago,
46:12
Speaker 2: or what's gonna happen, or what you want to happen
46:15
Speaker 2: or all that stuff. And people are like, but don't
46:17
Speaker 2: you have goals? Don't you want to do more things?
46:19
Speaker 2: And it's like, yes, you can still have goals and
46:22
Speaker 2: like visions, but you have to stay in reality twenty
46:25
Speaker 2: four to seven, and it's exhausting.
46:27
Speaker 1: Over the weekend, while I was with my family, I
46:29
Speaker 1: forget that sometimes my face will act out what I'm
46:33
Speaker 1: thinking through and my dad became very hyper focused on
46:37
Speaker 1: me because he caught one of my facial expressions and
46:40
Speaker 1: I did like a side eye and no one was
46:44
Speaker 1: talking like it was an insanity moment where it's like
46:46
Speaker 1: Namby just reacted and we were all just eating our
46:49
Speaker 1: ice cream, and he looked at me and he's like,
46:53
Speaker 1: what's wrong? And I went what. He goes, what's wrong,
46:58
Speaker 1: and I go, nothing's wrong. I was just thinking so
47:00
Speaker 1: thing through in my head. Oh my gosh. I live alone.
47:03
Speaker 1: I can just like literally physically act things out. But
47:09
Speaker 1: I'm in an ice cream parlor right now.
47:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, So think about that, and you are doing it
47:16
Speaker 2: all the time, not living in reality. That's where it
47:20
Speaker 2: gets really bad for me.
47:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk to me a little bit about the secret
47:26
Speaker 1: keeping and why secrets have become such a huge part
47:29
Speaker 1: of your content and creating around that idea.
47:33
Speaker 2: Well, I believe and I see that secrets keep us sick,
47:37
Speaker 2: whether it be you know, little secrets are big secrets.
47:40
Speaker 2: It's a way for me to be disconnected from people
47:42
Speaker 2: around me. And when I carry those secrets, there's so
47:45
Speaker 2: much stigma and shame. For example, I was writing an
47:48
Speaker 2: article for huff Posts coming out for the first time
47:51
Speaker 2: as a sex and love addict in Hollywood and recovery
47:53
Speaker 2: as a woman. And when that article came out at
47:56
Speaker 2: nine am, that morning, I kid you not, I almost
47:59
Speaker 2: had a pan attack. I was like, oh my god,
48:02
Speaker 2: Like even though I've been had like over ten years
48:04
Speaker 2: of recovery and sex and love addiction, right, it's like
48:07
Speaker 2: not like something new. But I was like, Oh my god,
48:10
Speaker 2: I just ruined my career. No one's going to hire me.
48:12
Speaker 2: They're going to think, oh, she's just a horror blah
48:14
Speaker 2: blah blah, all those things, right, And then an hour
48:18
Speaker 2: went by, nothing happened. Two hours went by, nothing happened,
48:20
Speaker 2: and it was like, oh my god, humble yourself. Nobody cares, lady, Like,
48:26
Speaker 2: get over yourself, nobody cares. But what did happen is
48:31
Speaker 2: that last bit of shame I was carrying around that
48:35
Speaker 2: I didn't know I still had in stigma and just
48:38
Speaker 2: like kind of being still disconnected like in my slaw
48:42
Speaker 2: world and recovery and helping, like speaking all over the world,
48:46
Speaker 2: but in my slaw world and then my Hollywood world,
48:50
Speaker 2: and for the first time, those two parts in me
48:52
Speaker 2: were completely one, and that last bit of shame just left.
48:57
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, I didn't realize I
48:59
Speaker 2: was still carrying that around. And then weeks people were
49:04
Speaker 2: reaching out and saying oh my god, me to me too.
49:07
Speaker 2: So I woke up one morning after that and I said,
49:10
Speaker 2: Secret Life Podcast, tell me your secret, and I'll tell
49:13
Speaker 2: you mine. Because every time we release a secret, that
49:17
Speaker 2: shame and stigma goes away. It connects us. And connection
49:21
Speaker 2: is the number one thing that gets anybody out of
49:24
Speaker 2: addiction is connection. It's not sobriety, it's connection. So every
49:28
Speaker 2: time I connect to someone like you or one of
49:31
Speaker 2: my guests or helping a listener, I am more sober.
49:36
Speaker 2: I am out of my addiction of like being singular
49:41
Speaker 2: and selfish and self seeking and narcissistic and all those things.
49:44
Speaker 2: So that just came a huge thing. So every episode
49:48
Speaker 2: I try to reveal something about myself so I'm connecting
49:51
Speaker 2: with my guests and listeners.
49:53
Speaker 1: I'm truly terrible at secrets. I try to keep the
49:57
Speaker 1: show a secret from my family. It lasted me ten
50:00
Speaker 1: episodes the minute that I was in front of them.
50:04
Speaker 1: Part of the problem was, I think secrets rob you
50:08
Speaker 1: of getting to live your joy authentically. So I was
50:12
Speaker 1: so happy that the show was being received well and
50:15
Speaker 1: doing well and that I was actually good at this,
50:19
Speaker 1: and then to not be able to just be like
50:22
Speaker 1: I'm good at a thing was