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How to Rebuild Intimacy in Long-Term Relationships: Caitlin V on Sex, Hormones, Communication & Connection · hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic

• [00:00:00] Caitlin V: Most of us have gotten the impression or have been taught that sex is just supposed to work and be easy. You [00:00:05] just close the door- Right ... shut off the lights, and it just works, right? Right. It doesn't just work, you know? [00:00:10] And it's okay that we have to learn how to make it work. Mm-hmm. Just like it's okay that [00:00:15] we have to be taught how to drive. [00:00:16] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. That we don't all come out as master chefs. For most folks- Right ... there's [00:00:20] no, like, internal dialogue of like, "I should just know how to cook." Right. Right? And yet we expect that because sex is something that our [00:00:25] bodies do naturally, which by the way they sleep and they digest naturally too, but we still learn about those things- [00:00:30] Right [00:00:30] Caitlin V: uh, that we can't apply the, that same template onto sex and sexuality. [00:00:34] Dr. Taz: Caitlin [00:00:35] V is a sexologist, an educator, a coach, and author focused on helping [00:00:40] people build greater confidence, connection, and satisfaction in their sex [00:00:45] lives. Her new book, Harder, Better, Longer, Stronger, is an evidence-based guide [00:00:50] for men who want to improve sexual confidence, reduce performance pressure, and [00:00:55] build stronger intimacy and connection. [00:00:57] Caitlin V: We have today put more [00:01:00] weight and expectation onto our romantic partners than people of previous [00:01:05] generations. So our romantic partner is not just supposed to be the person that we raise children with or build a [00:01:10] life with, but they're also supposed to be a best friend. We often are mistaken in thinking that we're the w- [00:01:15] we're the only ones that are dealing with this- Mm [00:01:16] Caitlin V: or our challenges are unique, when actually they're very [00:01:20] common. And we lead to people thinking that it's, like, maybe them or their individual relationship that is [00:01:25] the problem or- That is so true. Yeah ... and it, it's not true. Mm-hmm. And these things are, like, highly workable, [00:01:30] highly navigable. Solvable. Yeah. [00:01:32] Caitlin V: Yeah. But, but we actually have to be willing to do the work to [00:01:35] do it. And I always tell people, you know, "You're gonna be the same person in your next [00:01:40] relationship. So consider if it is really this relationship that isn't working or if it there's something that, like, [00:01:45] you want to really examine internally first. [00:01:47] Caitlin V: Whether or not you end your 20-year marriage- Right ... [00:01:50] uh, is secondary to what can you as a, as an individual grow from this [00:01:55] experience." [00:01:55] Dr. Taz: She's also the host of Good Sex, a television series in which she works with couples on [00:02:00] intimacy and sexual challenges, and she has built a large digital audience through [00:02:05] her educational content around relationships, communication, pleasure, and sexual [00:02:10] wellbeing. [00:02:10] Dr. Taz: Please join me in welcoming Caitlin V to the [00:02:13] Caitlin V: show. This episode is sponsored [00:02:15] by holplus, a holistic health platform built around education, [00:02:20] personalization, [00:02:20] Dr. Taz: and integrative care. holplus blends holistic, integrative, and functional [00:02:25] medicine clinics with learning resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course this [00:02:30] podcast, so you're not just treated, you're informed. [00:02:33] Dr. Taz: The platform also includes [00:02:35] holistic health quizzes and a curated wellness shop, helping you make choices that support your [00:02:40] body at the root level. holplus is holistic healthcare designed [00:02:45] for real life. Visit [00:02:46] Caitlin V: us at holplus.co to learn more about the [00:02:50] platform. Again, that's H-O-L-P-L-U-S dot C-O. [00:02:54] Dr. Taz: We have needed you on the [00:02:55] show for a really long time, Kaitlyn, so we're glad you're here. [00:02:58] Dr. Taz: I think that you have an [00:03:00] area of expertise that people are either uncomfortable talking about or wanna brush under the [00:03:05] cover, or they're talking about it and kinda getting nowhere with it. So we're gonna talk about sex [00:03:10] on this episode. We're gonna talk about men and women, and but we're gonna focus a little bit [00:03:15] on men's health- Mm-hmm [00:03:16] Dr. Taz: and what that means for them. Because for them, and for us [00:03:20] too, it, it's a vital sign and something to- Mm-hmm ... really pay attention to. And, you know, as m- as many [00:03:25] conversations as I've had around health, I don't think I've had that many around sex, so this is probably long- [00:03:30] Thank you ... overdue, right? Well, I'm, [00:03:31] Caitlin V: I'm honored to be the person. [00:03:32] Dr. Taz: Yes, you are the person. Thank you for having me. You are, you are the [00:03:35] chosen person to guide us through, like, this whole, whole, uh, terrain here. All right. So [00:03:40] I am, you know, in my, uh, early 50s, and [00:03:45] I've had some time, right, and some mileage to really observe patients and [00:03:50] their relationships, my own relationship, those of my friends. [00:03:53] Dr. Taz: And there's been a lot of [00:03:55] ebbing and flowing is probably the best way to describe it, right? We've watched so many people around [00:04:00] us get divorced. Mm-hmm. We've watched, you know, relationships turn in a different [00:04:05] direction. We've seen people battle all kinds of, you know, [00:04:10] conditions, whether they're physical or mental or, uh, or, you know, whatever it might be. [00:04:14] Dr. Taz: And so it's [00:04:15] interesting as people continue to talk about things like marriage and [00:04:20] relationships, and even if they wanna be in one, you know, how [00:04:25] this idea of sex and intimacy plays into the relationship. Because, you know, [00:04:30] a lot of the chatter that I'm hearing for the younger generation that's watching the older generations, [00:04:35] AKA me, and, you know, my peers, is that, "Well, all these people are getting divorced, [00:04:40] so what's the point of being in a committed relationship? [00:04:43] Dr. Taz: You know, I can just have sex [00:04:45] with whoever, whenever I want to, and, and that's the end of the story." Mm-hmm. So I'm really [00:04:50] curious from the work that you've done- And I promise we will talk about men, but I'm, I'm just curious [00:04:55] when we first think about family and we think about, you know, uh, [00:05:00] the health of a family. [00:05:01] Dr. Taz: I've been spending a lot of time in my head, by the way, uh, thinking about [00:05:05] something called the family body or what is the health- Mm ... of the entire unit- Mm-hmm ... right? When we, [00:05:10] when we think about that, you know, intimacy is important because a lack of [00:05:15] intimacy often leads to disconnection or to, you know, maybe even to other behaviors. [00:05:19] Dr. Taz: I don't know. Yeah. I, I don't [00:05:20] know what the research says. So help fill us in on what's going on on some of these [00:05:25] relationships that have existed for a long period of time, right? They're passing, you know, the two-year [00:05:30] mark, and then the five-year mark, and then the seven-year mark, and now we're into year 20. [00:05:34] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. And you know, and in [00:05:35] fact, I was joking with somebody. I was like, "You know, the more I observe and look around, are marriages really only [00:05:40] supposed to last for 20 years and then you're out?" Like, is that, is that what's happening? [00:05:45] Because that's the phase of life that we're in right now where our children are, like, 17 and 18, and you're just [00:05:50] seeing, like, it's almost like a battlefield. [00:05:52] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Like, all these, like, yeah, like, you know, we're [00:05:55] gonna go our separate ways. Mm-hmm. And it's kind of this, like, 20-ish year scenario going on. So [00:06:00] help us with understanding what's happening there. [00:06:02] Caitlin V: Mm. Big loaded question. [00:06:05] Yes. There's so much to unpack there [00:06:06] Dr. Taz: because- I know ... I think- I've, I've, I overdid it there. [00:06:08] Dr. Taz: No, [00:06:08] Caitlin V: that's good. But go wherever you wanna go [00:06:10] with that. We, we, we'll touch on all of it. [00:06:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:06:11] Caitlin V: But you know, the, if you, if you just watch the news- Yeah ... social [00:06:15] media, like, population- Right ... level, what's going on, it feels extremely fraught right now. Right. On, on [00:06:20] every level, every generation. The, uh, people who are growing up now who are in their early 20s are reporting [00:06:25] having less sex- Right [00:06:26] Caitlin V: than any previous generation. Uh, the number- What's up with that? ... of men and [00:06:30] women who have not had sex in the last year has gone up significantly. Um, I think there's, [00:06:35] there's so many factors to it. I mean, you touched on some of it, right? Yeah. Which is this sort of sense of hopelessness [00:06:40] around long-term commitment and marriage, these things that were maybe promised, that most of us [00:06:45] assumed that we would experience in our life, and we're seeing those, uh, uh, m- [00:06:50] That we're seeing th- those things not happen- Right [00:06:52] Caitlin V: and not be able to withstand time, uh, for the people who are [00:06:55] older. And then for the, the folks who are younger, they're also inundated with [00:07:00] expectations that they've been fed on social media. They're l- living through the age of dating apps- Mm-hmm ... and, and they're [00:07:05] navigating the complexity of meeting people online, which human beings are not built to do. [00:07:09] Caitlin V: Mm-mm. Right? No. [00:07:10] Uh, and, and then they, they also have, like, other factors that are influencing them as well. Their [00:07:15] alcohol drinking is down, for example. Mm-hmm. Like, that was a way that a lot of people of older generations, it m- generation [00:07:20] included, like, lowered inhibitions- Right, right ... and had early sexual experiences. [00:07:24] Caitlin V: They lived through the [00:07:25] pandemic. Their skills in terms of dating and flirting and feeling safe and comfortable and [00:07:30] navigating rejection- Yeah ... and navigating these things, and then they have financial and economic concerns as [00:07:35] well. So there are, there are so many things stacked up against dating and relationships. [00:07:39] Caitlin V: But [00:07:40] specifically for those folks who are maybe, like, 35 and older, or the folks who have had maybe a 20-year [00:07:45] relationship, Esther Perel actually has this- Yeah ... uh, phenomenal- Yeah ... theory on relationships, and she sort [00:07:50] of says that you have three marriages over the course of your life. You have sort of, like, your youngest- Right [00:07:54] Caitlin V: [00:07:55] first marriage where, uh, you're have- you have young children and you navigate that. You also have, like, young love and, you [00:08:00] know- Yeah ... your, your, your hormones are different during that time. Then you have your second marriage where your children are maturing [00:08:05] and becoming adults and maybe, like, uh, getting ready to leave the nest. [00:08:08] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. And then you have your last marriage, which [00:08:10] is, uh, after your children have left the nest and, um, and you're more mature in what you want and what you [00:08:15] desire. And some people have all three marriages with the same person. [00:08:18] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:08:19] Caitlin V: Some have three [00:08:20] different... And it doesn't mean that you're legally married, right? [00:08:22] Caitlin V: Right. Some folks have multiple significant relationships, sometimes [00:08:25] two that vary those spans. But I think that's a helpful, uh, framework- Right ... to [00:08:30] examine what's going on. Absolutely, [00:08:31] Dr. Taz: yeah. [00:08:31] Caitlin V: And I think that on top of all of this, we have [00:08:35] today put more weight and expectation onto our romantic [00:08:40] partners than people of previous generations. [00:08:41] Caitlin V: So our romantic partner is not just supposed to be the [00:08:45] person that we raise children with or build a life with, but they're also supposed to be a best friend, our primary social [00:08:50] contact. Mm-hmm. Uh, they're, we're supposed to have hot and spicy and passionate sex over the course of, you know, [00:08:55] decades- Mm-hmm [00:08:55] Caitlin V: even though no one taught us how to do that- Right ... or what our expectations would be. Right. And because [00:09:00] across the board, we don't have really nuanced conversations about sex and sexuality, both with our [00:09:05] immediate peers and, uh, uh, as a, as on a population level- Right ... then [00:09:10] we often are mistaken in thinking that we're the o- we're the only ones that are dealing with this- Mm [00:09:14] Caitlin V: or our challenges [00:09:15] are unique, when actually they're, they're very common. [00:09:18] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:09:18] Caitlin V: But we lack [00:09:20] the language and the education for how to navigate them as they come up. So you have the [00:09:25] combination of expectations that can't be met, a lack of awareness and a, and a, and [00:09:30] a lack of situational awareness regarding, like, um, how common the challenges that we're facing [00:09:35] are, and we lead to people thinking that it's, like, maybe them or their individual relationship [00:09:40] that is the problem or- It is [00:09:41] Dr. Taz: so [00:09:41] Caitlin V: true, yeah [00:09:41] Caitlin V: and it, it's not true. Mm-hmm. And these things are, like, highly workable, [00:09:45] highly- navigable [00:09:46] Dr. Taz: Solvable. [00:09:47] Caitlin V: Yeah Yeah. But, but we actually have to be willing to do [00:09:50] the work to do it. And I always tell people, you know, "You're gonna be the same person in your [00:09:55] next relationship. So consider if it is really this relationship that isn't working, or if it there's [00:10:00] something that, like, you want to really examine internally first. [00:10:02] Caitlin V: Whether or not you end your 20-year [00:10:05] marriage- Right ... uh, is secondary to what can you as a, as an individual grow from [00:10:10] this experience?" [00:10:10] Dr. Taz: Well, what are we missing? You know, like, what are, what are folks missing in the, [00:10:15] you know, course of a marriage or in the course of any relationship, right, as time goes on?[00:10:20] [00:10:20] Dr. Taz: You know, we know that that initial passionate flare is, like, two years- Mm-hmm ... or so, right? Is that right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Is that what the [00:10:25] science says? I mean, that, that's what our biology- It's about two years ... our biology is like two years. Yeah. And then after two years, [00:10:30] maybe it settles a bit, right? [00:10:31] Dr. Taz: Well, [00:10:31] Caitlin V: there's actually... So there's three important drop-offs. Okay. There's two... There's around two years, [00:10:35] around four years, and around seven, eight years. [00:10:36] Dr. Taz: Okay, so the seven-year thing is a [00:10:38] Caitlin V: thing. The seven-year thing is a thing. [00:10:40] Oh, wow. Well, and, and it is because if you think about it evolutionarily, the, the best thing that could happen for, for our species, [00:10:45] for our DNA- Right [00:10:45] Caitlin V: is that it remixes as many times as possible, right? Okay. Because you have one [00:10:50] child with one person, that's one unique set of, of combination of factors. Right. But if you [00:10:55] have, had two children with two different people, uh, biologically as a species, like, that, that [00:11:00] generates more unique combinations. It's better for us. [00:11:02] Caitlin V: So we evolved, m- more likely than [00:11:05] not, to mate with multiple people over the course of our lives. Mm. And now we live in a, a system that [00:11:10] doesn't promote that. Mm-hmm. Uh, and in fact, there's quite a bit of shame around that- Right ... even today. [00:11:13] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:11:14] Caitlin V: Uh, and so [00:11:15] we're, we, we've built- structures that don't [00:11:20] support our- Natural bio- [00:11:21] Caitlin V: natural inclinations ... biology, yeah And this, uh, n- neither is right nor wrong. Right. It's just a [00:11:25] matter of, like, understanding that we're, we are working against our biology staying in relationships [00:11:30] for longer periods of time. We work against our biology all day, every day. Right. I was looking at screens [00:11:35] until 11:00 PM- Right [00:11:36] Caitlin V: last night. Exactly. My biology was screaming- Right ... at me, like- You know, what am I doing? ... my eyes [00:11:40] hurt, my back hurts. Why am I still sitting here? Yeah, yeah. Right? So it's not that we can't do that. Right. It's just that if we're not... We [00:11:45] know, I mean, today especially, like the impact of blue light- Right ... and these glasses that [00:11:50] we can wear. [00:11:50] Caitlin V: Right. [00:11:50] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:11:51] Caitlin V: But we don't do the same thing with sex and sexuality. So two years is about the time [00:11:55] that it takes to find a person, mate with them, and raise a child to the point where [00:12:00] they're not extremely dependent on both parents all the time, right? Right. And so there's a natural [00:12:05] drop-off internally around that time, just in our, uh, biochemistry. [00:12:08] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:12:09] Caitlin V: If we were to, [00:12:10] if we chose to have a second child with them, that drop-off would happen around the four-year mark, and then that, the [00:12:15] final drop-off happens around the eight-year mark. That is when our, our chemistry is no [00:12:20] longer really supporting us- Uh-huh ... staying in this relationship in the way that [00:12:25] we're familiar with it, in the way that I think we've been taught to expect it. [00:12:28] Caitlin V: Mm. And so after around the [00:12:30] eight-year mark, we have to be really conscientious about the choices that we make in terms of [00:12:35] staying in and stabilizing the relationship. And then adding on top of that, I think this is a really [00:12:40] important factor, th- most of us have gotten the impression, or have been taught, or [00:12:45] just picked up by cultural osmosis, that sex is just supposed to work and be easy, right? [00:12:49] Caitlin V: [00:12:50] If you love someone- You have chemistry ... if you're meant to be together- Right ... then you just close the door- [00:12:55] Right ... shut off the lights, and it just works. Right. Right? It doesn't just work, you know? And it's [00:13:00] okay that we have to learn how to make it work and how to make that continue to be a [00:13:05] rewarding part of our relationship. [00:13:06] Caitlin V: Mm. Just like it's okay that we have to be taught how to drive. Mm-hmm. That we don't [00:13:10] all come out as master chefs. Right. We have to consult recipe books, right? Right. But no one shames you for learning a [00:13:15] new recipe. There's, there... For most folks- Right ... there's no, like, internal dialogue of, like, "I should just know how to cook."[00:13:20] [00:13:20] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:13:20] Caitlin V: Right? And yet we expect that because sex is something that our bodies do naturally, which by the way, they sleep and they [00:13:25] digest naturally too, but we still learn about those things- Right ... uh, that we can't apply that, that [00:13:30] same template onto sex and sexuality. [00:13:32] Dr. Taz: What's happening... Okay, so you have the [00:13:35] eight-year drop-off, and then if you don't It sounds like there's work, and we'll talk [00:13:40] about work in just a minute [00:13:40] Dr. Taz: But if you're not doing the work or not aware- Mm-hmm ... maybe just [00:13:45] not aware of what's happening, like what, what happens next? What's sort of like the [00:13:50] evolution- Mm ... as you move forward into a decade of marriage- Yeah ... or two decades of [00:13:55] marriage? Like, what's, what's going on? [00:13:56] Caitlin V: I mean, my, my own first marriage, first relationship lasted eight [00:14:00] years. [00:14:00] Dr. Taz: Oh, wow. [00:14:00] Caitlin V: Okay. And, uh, inside of that, you know, when we no longer have the, the, [00:14:05] the internal state that is supportive of that relationship, I think it can [00:14:10] become more difficult, which it wasn't in my situation, my relationship- Yeah ... to ignore the [00:14:15] areas of like misalignment- Yes ... value misalignment, lifestyle misalignment, the areas that like [00:14:20] when we had sort of that, uh, that, that internal chemistry going for us were a little easier to [00:14:25] ignore. [00:14:25] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:14:25] Caitlin V: And then once that shifted- Goes away. Yeah, yeah, yeah ... yeah, we had to come to terms with the fact that like [00:14:30] actually who we were eight years ago when we met is not who we are today. [00:14:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:14:33] Caitlin V: And our trajectories are very [00:14:35] different. Mm-hmm. And in that instance, I was very fortunate. We didn't have children together. [00:14:38] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. We didn't own a home together. Mm-hmm. You know, we had [00:14:40] two cats- It's simple. Yeah ... so we each took one. It was very... it was, it was emotionally very difficult. Right. But in terms [00:14:45] of, uh, unpeeling our like s- financial structures and things like that, that was a little easier, [00:14:50] and we're able to maintain a friendship today. [00:14:51] Caitlin V: I'm, I'm great friends- That's amazing ... with my ex. Yeah. And that is because we [00:14:55] worked really, really hard on- Yeah ... every single aspect- Yeah ... of our relationship, couples counseling, [00:15:00] therapy. Like, we really d- we did our individual work. We did our work together. And so at the end, we were able to say, "You know [00:15:05] what? [00:15:05] Caitlin V: We tried everything. It's not working. Each of us would be happier on our own- Mm ... [00:15:10] finding other partners." Mm-hmm. And so we were able to split amicably. Mm-hmm. But we were fortunate because I [00:15:15] also understood what was happening. I think for a lot of folks, if you're not familiar with this or you, you [00:15:20] don't, you don't know or you're, you're navigating multiple things that are stacking up at once, like you're going through [00:15:25] perimenopause- Right [00:15:25] Caitlin V: or menopause. [00:15:25] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:15:26] Caitlin V: Like, he's going through his own shifts in, in his testosterone levels that start [00:15:30] decreasing when a man in his 30s. Like, there's a lot more to it than that, and it [00:15:35] requires a lot of self-awareness and a lot of compassion both for yourself and the other person in order to navigate [00:15:40] those changes with grace. [00:15:41] Dr. Taz: If you're listening to this and thinking, "I [00:15:45] know something is off in my body, but I don't know where to start," this is for you [00:15:50] That's why I created the Circle. The Circle is my private community where [00:15:55] I and my team focus on understanding your body, from hormones and stress to [00:16:00] metabolic health and longevity, with real-life guidance that you can actually use.[00:16:05] [00:16:05] Dr. Taz: This is about clarity and consistency and support beyond the exam [00:16:10] room, and maybe outside of all the different appointments and experts that you've been running around [00:16:15] to. You can try the Circle with a one-month trial using the promo code [00:16:20] podcast at holplus.co/circle. Again, that's Whole Plus, [00:16:24] Caitlin V: [00:16:25] holplus.co/circle. [00:16:29] Caitlin V: All right, let's [00:16:30] jump back into the episode. [00:16:31] Dr. Taz: Well, I was telling you before we started how, uh, you know, when The Hormone [00:16:35] Shift, which came out in 2023, I was... I don't know, I went down a rabbit hole, and I was looking at, [00:16:40] you know, hormone shift timeframes and relationships and divorce [00:16:45] rates, and there was a parallel between the two, right? [00:16:48] Dr. Taz: It was like, you know, that [00:16:50] seven year was right around kind of like early perimenopause, and then, you know, [00:16:55] the, I think the next peak in divorce rates I saw was right around year 14, 15 or so. Mm-hmm. And I could [00:17:00] be wrong, but that's when you're, like, into further meno- menopause, probably perimenopause, probably going into [00:17:05] menopause. [00:17:05] Dr. Taz: And then the next one was kind of the year 2021, and that one was, like, when most [00:17:10] people are in menopause. Men, at the same time, we're not talking about, because they didn't have a [00:17:15] cycle. Mm-hmm. But their testosterone levels are steadily declining through this, so they're hitting [00:17:20] andropause right around 40, right? [00:17:21] Dr. Taz: Sometimes a little bit earlier. Mm-hmm. And actually it's all shifting downwards now. But [00:17:25] they're hitting andropause right around 40 or so, and then they're also very different at 50- Mm-hmm ... [00:17:30] than they are at 40. And that friction... And I remember thinking, you know, we didn't [00:17:35] have you at the time, but I remember being like, "I bet there's a connection here- Mm-hmm [00:17:38] Dr. Taz: between what's going on," you [00:17:40] know? So, you know, tell us what's going on. I think with women, we understand the [00:17:45] biology better. [00:17:45] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. [00:17:46] Dr. Taz: We don't talk at least enough about what's happening with men. Yeah. Can [00:17:50] you clarify that piece of this puzzle for us? Like, you know, what are men [00:17:55] experiencing? It's very easy to The pattern I see over and over [00:18:00] again is the shocked woman and the villain man. [00:18:03] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Right? Like, the woman either [00:18:05] shocked 'cause there was an affair, shocked 'cause somebody wants to leave, shocked because they had, she had no [00:18:10] clue X, Y, and Z was happening or that there was even anything wrong, and then [00:18:15] the man just being like, "I'm out," you know? Mm-hmm. So help us with what's going on with [00:18:20] men and, you know, what we need to understand a little bit better. [00:18:24] Dr. Taz: [00:18:25] And then the second follow-up question to that is, you know, just as women, like, how, how do we [00:18:30] start asking the right questions, you know? [00:18:32] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so [00:18:35] men's, uh, experience in, in their own bodies and their shifts happen more linearly than ours. Mm-hmm. [00:18:40] Ours, you know, even just- Ours are like, "Ee, ee, ee, ee, ee." [00:18:42] Caitlin V: Yeah, yeah. Even, even as, even during our- Yeah, yeah ... our, our fertile years- Yeah, yeah ... we're like, [00:18:45] we're, we're always shifting. Right. So yes, it is a bigger shift- Right ... but we're also a little bit more familiar with [00:18:50] expecting that our bodies are going to change- Right ... because they already are changing all of the time. [00:18:53] Caitlin V: Right. Men, that, that [00:18:55] experience can be a lot more shocking. Because after puberty they pretty much live in the same body- Right ... and [00:19:00] feel about the same, you know? At the same temperature. Obviously the... Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. Like... Well, like, and obviously, like, [00:19:05] illness and- Yeah ... and, uh, life circumstances, events, grief- Right [00:19:08] Caitlin V: loss, job changes, uh, uh, [00:19:10] children all impact all of that. But still for a man, average man, his experience is [00:19:15] pretty consistent until it is suddenly not. Not. And it seems like all of [00:19:20] a sudden they kinda wake up and are like, "Oh, things are different." And m- [00:19:25] men, for the most part, the, we as a, as a whole treat women's sexuality as complicated- [00:19:30] Mm-hmm [00:19:30] Caitlin V: and men's as straightforward and simple. Right. Right? Which does a great disservice to both genders. Mm-hmm. But [00:19:35] for men in particular, the disservice there is that any sort of sexual dysfunction that they're dealing with, erectile [00:19:40] dysfunction, delayed ejaculation, premature ejaculation- A loss of libido, th- [00:19:45] they tend to see that as a singular issue with them- Mm [00:19:48] Caitlin V: that indicates that something is wrong [00:19:50] with them because their sexuality's supposed to be straightforward, right? Right. It's supposed to be easy. Right. So if it's not working, [00:19:55] it must be something that is wrong with you, even though that is not the case. And 30% of men deal with [00:20:00] premature ejaculation. The best numbers that we have are that 40% of men in their 40s start to deal with erectile [00:20:05] dysfunction- Mm [00:20:05] Caitlin V: and it goes up from there, 50% in their 50s, 60% in their 60s, 70% in their- Wow, those are [00:20:10] high numbers. They're huge nu- They're, like, epidemic level numbers. Wow. If, if [00:20:15] 50% of men in their 50s had, you know, uh, uh, testicular [00:20:20] torsion or something- Right ... like, we would be really looking into that, right? We'd be, we'd, yes, [00:20:22] Dr. Taz: we'd be paying attention [00:20:23] Caitlin V: to it. [00:20:23] Caitlin V: And on a population, [00:20:25] it's steadily our, the men's testosterone rates are- It's going down ... declining, right? Right. Yeah. Every year. Uh, a [00:20:30] man today at the age of 40 does not have as much testosterone on average as his father or his grandfather [00:20:35] had at that same age. Right. We don't fully understand exactly what is causing that. [00:20:39] Caitlin V: There's a lot of [00:20:40] environmental factors, plastics- Right. Right ... um, hormone disruptors. It's- Cortisol. All the things. Yeah ... yeah, it could be, it's a lot [00:20:45] of things, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not as, there's no one singular fix to that. Right. Right. But the, what's happening also is that a lot of [00:20:50] men are then seeking testosterone replacement therapy- Yep [00:20:52] Caitlin V: which can be marvelous. It can be [00:20:55] life-changing for the men who need it. But a lot of, um, prescribers are, uh, kind of like [00:21:00] freewheeling with the testosterone. Yep. So a certain number of men show up in my office going, "My testosterone is higher than it was [00:21:05] when I was in puberty. I've hit like 1,200, 1,600." [00:21:08] Caitlin V: Eee. "It's way too high. I'm [00:21:10] having really, uh-" I have these conversations all the time ... "disturbing thoughts," right? Yeah. "And I'm thinking about [00:21:15] cheating on my wife for the first time. I've never thought about that. I'm, like, terrified by what's going on internally." And so [00:21:20] there's, there's this- Yeah ... there's this, like, other layer to navigate, right? [00:21:22] Caitlin V: Yeah. So, so I think as a [00:21:25] whole We, you're totally right in that the narrative tends to be shocked woman, [00:21:30] villain man. [00:21:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:21:31] Caitlin V: Men need to, as a whole, become more responsible for understanding [00:21:35] their bodies, for understanding their mental and emotional and relational aspects of [00:21:40] sexuality and of their relationships, and being, uh, advocates for themselves- Yeah [00:21:44] Caitlin V: and for the [00:21:45] intimacy of the relationship, but in a way that is safe and grounded and from a place of, like, [00:21:50] leadership and not from a place of force or coercion or the things that we typically see- Right ... you know, men behaving [00:21:55] badly in media- Right ... right? [00:21:55] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:21:56] Caitlin V: And, uh, uh, for, for the female partners, the [00:22:00] questions that we can be asking are, like, how is it that, uh, we are sharing the [00:22:05] responsibility for the intimacy of our relationship and allowing it to change and flex over time?[00:22:10] [00:22:10] Caitlin V: Right. Because one of the things that breaks our structures is that we are changing, right? Yeah. We've- w- we're changing in that [00:22:15] we're maturing, we're learning, we're growing, we're- we become parents, we, we, we shift in our [00:22:20] careers. Like, we are constantly changing- Right ... inside and outside. And if we [00:22:25] built a structure around our relationship that relies on it to look or function in a very [00:22:30] specific and rigid way, then as we change, we, w- the structure is not capable [00:22:35] of bending with us- Mm [00:22:36] Caitlin V: and bending around us. And the issue is that so much of this gets [00:22:40] repressed, we don't bring it up until it feels like it's too late. Why are we [00:22:42] Dr. Taz: not bringing it up? Like, what's, what's going on? Like, why [00:22:45] are we not... L- let me back up for just a second before we get there. [00:22:50] Like, what are the biggest, like, warning signs you see, you know, that you would tell a [00:22:55] man or a woman, you know, that they're starting to go in danger zone when it comes to intimacy? [00:22:59] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:23:00] What are some of the big warning signs for each? [00:23:03] Caitlin V: I'd say that the, the [00:23:05] greatest, biggest warning sign and the thing that I would warn everyone against is when you feel resentment- [00:23:10] [00:23:10] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:23:10] Caitlin V: towards your partner, uh, which is sort of like the, the emotional buildup of [00:23:15] feeling like things are not fair or balanced between you. [00:23:18] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. Uh, then that is an [00:23:20] enormous red flag, and it needs to be addressed immediately. Uh, resentment is one of the greatest [00:23:25] killers of libido and desire, and it ultimately is one of the key indicators that a relationship is [00:23:30] headed in the wrong direction. Mm-hmm. And there are things that you, that lead... [00:23:33] Caitlin V: You know, resentment doesn't come from nowhere, right? Right, right. [00:23:35] It comes from an ongoing pattern- Right ... of things and behaviors, thoughts- Right ... beliefs, et cetera. [00:23:40] Um, uh, but I would say that if you feel that, especially when it comes to your intimate life, [00:23:45] it is something that should be urgently addressed. [00:23:47] Caitlin V: I think that it's very easy to sort of [00:23:50] sweep these things under the rug. They're very uncomfortable. We don't wanna put time aside to deal with them. [00:23:55] Mm. And we don't want... We also don't want to easily prioritize them and put time aside to, like, take [00:24:00] care of them. I mean- [00:24:01] Dr. Taz: What are common resentments that you hear about in your work [00:24:05] from both men and women? [00:24:06] Caitlin V: Mm, I would say that, uh, feeling that they [00:24:10] are... They, they all come down to not getting needs met. That's, I would say is the single [00:24:15] most common sort of like umbrella- Denominator, yeah ... of resentments. Okay. And it could be like, "You know, I wanna be having [00:24:20] more sex. I wanna be having different sex. I wanna be having sex that is more pleasurable for me- Yeah [00:24:24] Caitlin V: and not [00:24:25] just pleasurable for one partner. Uh, I wanna be putting time towards our sex and [00:24:30] sexuality, and maybe my partner isn't into it." Right. Uh, there's also, you know, for [00:24:35] couples who, uh, have children, uh, navigating the time- All of that, yeah ... post children. [00:24:40] Yeah. Right? And having, like, grace and understanding and, and also we have a very limited definition of what [00:24:45] sex is, right? [00:24:45] Caitlin V: Yeah. Even when we say that term, most people think of intercourse, right? Right, right. And actually, we [00:24:50] have... If we're willing to, like, expand that very broadly and think about eroticism and think about all the ways that we [00:24:55] can connect with another person, then it need not look just like that. [00:24:59] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:24:59] Caitlin V: But [00:25:00] again, if we're not exposing ourselves to those ideas, if we're not putting time aside to actually be [00:25:05] intimate... [00:25:05] Caitlin V: Like, one of the, uh, like, famous examples of a homework assignment that- Yeah ... [00:25:10] sex therapists and coaches give to our clients- Right, right ... is to schedule intimacy. [00:25:14] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:25:14] Caitlin V: Right? [00:25:15] Like, two hours a week, and it's not intercourse time, right? It's intimate [00:25:20] time. Mm. It's time to put the phones aside. Try not to, you know, use it just to have [00:25:25] conversations, but instead, like, be physically intimate. [00:25:27] Caitlin V: Mm. Snuggle, take a bath together. Mm. Trade [00:25:30] massages. Like, b- g- have... Engage in pillow talk. Talk about what you want and what's [00:25:35] going on and what you're afraid of, and be vulnerable with one another. But so many people meet with- Don't do that ... so [00:25:40] much resistance to that. Yeah. Like, you know, what do you mean? [00:25:42] Caitlin V: In this world, where I'm working 40 or 80 hours a week- [00:25:45] Right, right ... and the kids have soccer practice, and I'd like to see my parents or my, my- Right ... while they're still here or, you [00:25:50] know, spend time with my neighbors or my friends, like, w- w- my faith community, like- Where am [00:25:55] I supposed to get the extra hours- So it's physical touch [00:25:56] Caitlin V: to do that? [00:25:57] Dr. Taz: It's physical touch, but not necessarily [00:26:00] intercourse. [00:26:00] Caitlin V: Yes. [00:26:00] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:26:01] Caitlin V: Yeah, and so we, we miss out on that. But, but we... in order to, like, [00:26:05] care for anything that we love that's gonna be with us long term, it requires a bit of maintenance. Nurturing, yeah. We [00:26:10] understand that our bodies re- require maintenance. [00:26:11] Caitlin V: We understand that our homes require maintenance. But if we really [00:26:15] wanna have a great marriage, a great intimate life, a great sex life, then it does require [00:26:20] regular maintenance, and it also requires vulnerable conversations. And [00:26:25] vulnerable conversations are hard enough for folks to have- Right ... outside of the bedroom. [00:26:29] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:26:29] Caitlin V: Right? [00:26:30] And if we don't have a framework or we're not regularly practicing sort of, like, clearing out the stuff that [00:26:35] needs to be said- [00:26:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:26:36] Caitlin V: or when we maybe rightfully so think that our partner isn't gonna be capable of hearing [00:26:40] us or having that convers- meeting us with the conversation, then y- and we can't [00:26:45] already do that around how we're, like, we're raising our kids or paying our bills, then it's gonna be [00:26:50] way harder to have that around a subject matter that we ourselves maybe don't feel that confident discussing to [00:26:55] begin with. [00:26:55] Dr. Taz: Hmm. How... You know, usually men get accused of not being willing to have vulnerable [00:27:00] conversations. Mm. It's usually not women. Mm-hmm. You know? I f- Is that fair? Is that a fair statement, or you don't think [00:27:05] that's fair? [00:27:07] Caitlin V: I encourage the men who come to me for [00:27:10] coaching or are, you know, commenting on my YouTube channel to say like, "Look, chances are that your [00:27:15] partner is leading the charge for the emotional health of your relationship, and they're [00:27:20] willing to have those vulnerable conversations. [00:27:21] Caitlin V: 'Hey, that hurt my feelings. I didn't like how we handled that.'" Right. Like, "Please don't talk [00:27:25] to my mom or my sister that way." Like- Right ... we are usually the ones that are responsible for that. Doesn't mean we're [00:27:30] always doing a great job with it. Right. Okay. But we're, we're the ones that are- We're trying. [00:27:33] Caitlin V: Yeah ... we're trying. We're trying our best- Yeah ... and we're doing our best with it. [00:27:35] Yeah. And so I'll say to the men that follow me, "You know, if sex really matters to you, if intimacy really matters to [00:27:40] you, why don't you pick up that torch?" [00:27:41] Dr. Taz: Mm. " [00:27:41] Caitlin V: Why don't you learn about it? Read my book, watch my... It [00:27:45] doesn't... [00:27:45] Caitlin V: Don't even read my stuff. Read everybody's stuff." Yeah. Right? Like, become a student of sex and [00:27:50] sexuality, of eroticism, of intimacy. If you care about it, then take care [00:27:55] of it- Yeah ... because she's probably taking care of the sort of like emotional and familial load of [00:28:00] the relationship. Right. So if this matters to [00:28:02] Dr. Taz: you- [00:28:03] Caitlin V: You take care of that, [00:28:03] Dr. Taz: yeah [00:28:03] Dr. Taz: yeah. Yeah. [00:28:04] Caitlin V: Pick it, pick it [00:28:05] up and run it. [00:28:06] Dr. Taz: I, I love that. So resentment's a red flag. Mm-hmm. Is there another red flag? [00:28:10] [00:28:10] Caitlin V: You know, I think that, um, distance is a another red [00:28:15] flag. If you feel like crossing the divide between you, if the divide is growing- Mm ... more and [00:28:20] more and more- [00:28:20] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:28:21] Caitlin V: that's another red flag, and it doesn't need to be a, um...[00:28:25] [00:28:25] Caitlin V: It's, it's, it... I think when we're talking about any of these things, [00:28:30] like, all, all of them are things that we can approach with care. Mm-hmm. And as long as both people are interested in [00:28:35] doing [00:28:35] Dr. Taz: it- And you're talking about emotional distance- Uh- ... not physical distance? [00:28:37] Caitlin V: Both. [00:28:37] Dr. Taz: Both, [00:28:38] Caitlin V: okay. Yeah. Any kind. Like distance [00:28:40] of- Okay [00:28:40] Caitlin V: I... The, the feeling of like, "I can't reach you." [00:28:43] Dr. Taz: Ah. " [00:28:43] Caitlin V: We're not spending quality [00:28:45] time together. We're not looking at each other." Yeah. "We're not putting our phones down. We're not going out to [00:28:50] have special time, just the two of us." Right. It doesn't have to be, uh, a date every single Friday night, [00:28:55] right? Right. But it could just be like, "Do I feel like I can reach you?" [00:28:58] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:28:58] Caitlin V: Right? Um, John Gottman [00:29:00] has done, uh- Mm-hmm ... a lot, a lot of work- Mm ... around, like, the Four Horsemen- Yes ... of the Apocalypse, right? Right. And the things [00:29:05] that we, um, l- uh, look for in a relationship. But I would say that [00:29:10] distance, one person, um, being withholding or, you know, they use the term stonewalling. [00:29:14] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. [00:29:15] I like to think about withholding as like a sort of a precursor. Yeah. Withholding is done consciously and stonewalling [00:29:20] is often done unconsciously. Mm, mm-hmm. Um, criticism, contempt, all of those things [00:29:25] are red flags. Yellow flags if you catch them early enough, but red flags that- [00:29:30] Indicate that maybe it's time to do some work on this Mm-hmm And because it is a really sensitive subject, it might [00:29:35] also be appropriate to call in a professional. [00:29:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah. I think that's always a good, a good idea 'cause people get [00:29:40] defensive very quickly, you know? Yeah. What... Let's flip it. Like, what are [00:29:45] ways for a couple to reconnect- Hmm ... that's starting to experience some of this [00:29:50] fraying, so to speak. Yeah. You know, how do they reconnect? Yeah. How do they find their way back [00:29:55] to each other? [00:29:55] Dr. Taz: Is that possible? [00:29:56] Caitlin V: Right. Well, and as it- it's- it- honestly, you don't have to be at a five-alarm [00:30:00] fire to start doing these things. Right. Like, any relationship- Right ... will benefit from these same tools [00:30:05] because it's- it becomes preventative maintenance instead of, like, repair, right? Um, [00:30:10] I think that the single most important thing that most people get wrong is we [00:30:15] don't clean up as quickly as we need to- Mm-hmm [00:30:17] Caitlin V: when it comes to- [00:30:19] Dr. Taz: Something going wrong ... [00:30:19] Caitlin V: [00:30:20] yeah, or, like, something didn't feel right about that- Mm-hmm ... and I didn't wanna say anything, or, [00:30:25] you know, we hide little things from each other, right? Like, "I didn't really like, uh, how you [00:30:30] touched me," or, "I was experiencing some pain," or, you know, um, "I told you that I [00:30:35] was staying late at the office, but, like, actually I had a couple drinks with the boys," or, you know, [00:30:40] these little things that add up over time. [00:30:43] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so we need to [00:30:45] constantly be cleaning and repairing inside of our relationship the really, really [00:30:50] small things before they grow into larger things, right? Interesting. The little miscommunications, the little [00:30:55] missteps, and part of that is learning for ourselves how we can receive feedback- Yeah [00:30:59] Caitlin V: and not become [00:31:00] defensive around it, right? Right. And not go straight to, "Well, like, I had to," or, you know, "I didn't mean to," or, "You're making too [00:31:05] big of a deal out of it," or- Right ... right? Like, we need to actually be able to learn how to receive those things with grace. Right. That's [00:31:10] very difficult. Right. We need to be able to say them with grace, too. [00:31:12] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. Like, you know, "I didn't like it when [00:31:15] that happened," or, "I felt alone"- Right ... or, "I felt like you were, um, you were, [00:31:20] you were abandoning me at that dinner and, you know, it didn't [00:31:25] feel good when you, uh, started talking to her instead- Yeah ... of me," or something like that. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. We need to be able to [00:31:30] speak those things clearly, and our, our partner needs to be able to hear them and make [00:31:35] repair quickly. [00:31:37] Caitlin V: This is not sexy. It is, it is, [00:31:40] it is foundational, it is important, but it is, it is not sexy work, right? We also need [00:31:45] to be engaged in, uh, I think an active process of acknowledging each other. When my ex-husband and [00:31:50] I sort of first discussed splitting, we were around six years into our relationship, [00:31:55] and we kept our relationship going for, like, two full years, practically [00:32:00] running strictly on, like, acknowledgement, appreciation, gratitude, cleanup, and repair. [00:32:04] Dr. Taz: [00:32:05] Mm-hmm. [00:32:05] Caitlin V: And so we, we were, uh, we, we had this practice of asking, like, [00:32:10] "What's one thing that you wanna be acknowledged for?" [00:32:11] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:32:12] Caitlin V: Because often, you know, we talk about love languages, [00:32:15] like, what I see as love might not be love to you. Right. Right? The way that he's trying to show me- Right ... [00:32:20] love isn't necessarily how I wanna receive it. [00:32:21] Caitlin V: Right. And so we were able to get really clear on, like, what [00:32:25] we were doing for each other that was, was, were attempts to care for the relationship, [00:32:30] but were falling flat, right? So I'd say, like, "Oh, I wanna be acknowledged for the fact that, like, I did [00:32:35] your laundry," you know, this act of service that I gave to you. [00:32:38] Caitlin V: And he might say, like, "Oh, I wanna be acknowledged [00:32:40] for the fact that, you know, instead of, uh, uh, uh, taking time [00:32:45] out to go see my friends, I prioritized having our date this week," you know? Mm-hmm. When I might think that that's the bare minimum. [00:32:50] [00:32:50] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:32:50] Caitlin V: And so, so these little communication style tools can- Yeah [00:32:53] Caitlin V: be really [00:32:55] effective at, uh, at nipping things in the bud- [00:32:57] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:32:57] Caitlin V: right before they become bigger and bigger. [00:32:59] Dr. Taz: Do [00:33:00] men and women disconnect for different reasons? [00:33:03] Caitlin V: Hmm. [00:33:05] That is a great question [00:33:07] Dr. Taz: And by disconnect, I mean obviously lose interest [00:33:10] in sex. [00:33:11] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. [00:33:11] Dr. Taz: You know, start to withdraw from the re- the term checked out, I'm [00:33:15] sure you've- Mm-hmm. [00:33:15] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... heard people say. Like, what makes a man check out? What makes a woman check out? [00:33:19] Caitlin V: Yeah, I mean, [00:33:20] I think they ultimately are the same reasons, but they look different- Different ... in [00:33:25] each gender. Um, I would say that feeling unloved- [00:33:28] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:33:28] Caitlin V: is pr- kind of [00:33:30] the, the primary- For both ... cause for w- for women in particular- Okay. [00:33:32] Caitlin V: Okay ... to check out, and feeling [00:33:35] disrespected or not appreciated is m- more commonly the, the man's reason for checking out. Hmm. [00:33:40] [00:33:40] Dr. Taz: Interesting. [00:33:40] Caitlin V: But I think that's more of, uh, an indication of just, like, how we receive and what we expect from each [00:33:45] other. You know, ultimately they have a very similar sort of thread. [00:33:48] Caitlin V: I think they feel similarly in each of [00:33:50] our bodies. Mm-hmm. Um, but we label them very differently, right? Hmm. So, uh, for a woman, if [00:33:55] we don't feel like we are being seen, appreciated, valued, loved, [00:34:00] cared for, the things that we sort of expect- Nurtured. Yeah. Yeah ... nurtured from our, from our masculine partner, then that, that [00:34:05] could be cause for us to check out, to withhold, to put up walls, to, to pull away our [00:34:10] vulnerability. [00:34:10] Caitlin V: Hmm. And for a man to feel criticized and not trusted, [00:34:15] um, to, to feel put down- Demeaned. Yeah ... demeaned, yeah. Yeah. Uh, all of which kind of fall more under [00:34:20] the category of disrespected. Mm-hmm. Those are more of the causes that men check out. Mm-hmm. And I [00:34:25] think ultimately a lot of folks check out because they feel restricted in one way or another. [00:34:28] Caitlin V: Like, "I'm not [00:34:30] accepted the way that I am and appreciated for who I am, uh, and you want me to be something [00:34:35] different than who I am today," that's a very difficult feeling to be with, I mean, no matter how much- I hear that a lot ... you love your [00:34:40] partner. [00:34:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah. I hear that a lot from women about men, like wanting men to be a [00:34:45] particular way- Mm-hmm [00:34:45] Dr. Taz: right? And men being like, "No," you know. [00:34:48] Caitlin V: Yeah. And, [00:34:48] Dr. Taz: and [00:34:49] Caitlin V: the, [00:34:49] Dr. Taz: and the other [00:34:50] way around, [00:34:50] Caitlin V: right? [00:34:50] Dr. Taz: And they're like, "No, this is not, this is not who I am and this is not who I wanna be." And, and I have seen those [00:34:55] relationships- [00:34:55] Caitlin V: Yeah ... [00:34:56] Dr. Taz: you know, fall by the wayside for sure. What's the role of [00:35:00] stress and cortisol and the burden, right? [00:35:03] Dr. Taz: I call it, for women I call it the invisible [00:35:05] load- Mm-hmm ... 'cause we're always doing logistics and, you know, kinda carrying that, um, you [00:35:10] mentioned it, like the emotional burden for the family, right? So there's that kinda chronic [00:35:15] stressor that a lot of women talk to me about. I've experienced it myself. [00:35:18] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. You know, what... And then [00:35:20] for men, they c- they may have other stressors, right? Like I feel like men put themselves under a lot of like caregiver [00:35:25] stress or provider stress- Mm-hmm ... or financial stress. You know, what, what is the role of [00:35:30] stress in disconnection and in intimacy? [00:35:33] Caitlin V: Yeah. I mean, well, cortisol and [00:35:35] testosterone have a inverse relationship. [00:35:37] Caitlin V: It's not like a, a, a one-to-one scale- Mm-hmm ... [00:35:40] so I'll be cautious about how much I say on that. But, uh, for the most part, men that are dealing with, uh, [00:35:45] high levels of stress, high levels of cortisol... Did I say cortisone earlier? Cortisol. [00:35:49] Dr. Taz: Cortisol. [00:35:49] Caitlin V: [00:35:50] Yeah. [00:35:50] Dr. Taz: Cort- cortisone's related- [00:35:51] Caitlin V: Cortisone's related ... [00:35:52] Dr. Taz: so it's okay. [00:35:53] Caitlin V: So it's okay. But men that are dealing with high levels [00:35:55] of ongoing stress and cortisol have, typically struggle with their testosterone more than [00:36:00] men who don't. [00:36:00] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:36:01] Caitlin V: Uh, and testosterone is replenished in our sleep, and if they're not sleeping well, there's [00:36:05] a whole cascade of factors- Right, right ... that come out of stress. [00:36:07] Caitlin V: But I've talked to so many men who say [00:36:10] that their sexual challenges, dysfunctions, issues came forward when they no longer felt like they [00:36:15] could provide, when financial insecurity- Yes ... entered into- Yeah ... their relationship, and that was the biggest and [00:36:20] most challenging thing for them to navigate, right? And you're totally right. [00:36:23] Caitlin V: It is, there's a lot of like provider [00:36:25] stress. And the truth is that we live in a very quickly changing world- [00:36:30] Yeah ... where women no longer rely on men to- Right ... be their financial providers. Right. Uh, more women [00:36:35] graduate from graduate degrees and- I [00:36:36] Dr. Taz: know ... [00:36:37] Caitlin V: uh, and we worked really, really hard to have that- Yeah [00:36:39] Caitlin V: right? Yeah. [00:36:40] And also we have this changing landscape regarding like AI and more- Right ... traditional jobs and, [00:36:45] you know, women no longer need a man to get a mortgage or sign up for a credit card. So what men need to provide in [00:36:50] relationships has changed. But the way that men have been raised and taught about relationships has [00:36:55] not caught up yet, right? [00:36:55] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:36:56] Caitlin V: So there is a, a little bit of a sense of, I think, um, [00:37:00] uh, failure on men's part, and there is some like- They're [00:37:04] Dr. Taz: lost. [00:37:04] Caitlin V: Yeah, they're [00:37:05] lost, and they feel resentful, and they feel like suddenly... You know, it used to be enough, unfortunately, for [00:37:10] your grandfather to, um, to just like put a, a roof over everyone's head and food on the [00:37:15] table, and then like he had to like kick back and drink a beer, right? [00:37:17] Caitlin V: Right. He did not need to show up emotionally. Right. He did [00:37:20] not need to have a, a, a value alignment and, and spiritual connection, and he didn't need [00:37:25] to be a safe space for her to, to go to and, and, and have deeper conversations, and he didn't [00:37:30] need to speak the, the language of- Yeah ... vulnerability. But that's not acceptable [00:37:35] anymore for men. [00:37:35] Caitlin V: Mm. Women are not looking for men to just [00:37:40] become, uh, uh, to, to be, uh, the wallet for the family essentially- Yeah ... right? Like, we can do that for ourself. [00:37:45] We still want men, right? We still wanna have relationships with men. Overwhelmingly, women, even [00:37:50] women who, like, have stopped dating or stopped engaging with men, for the most part, like, they, they, [00:37:55] they chose that after trying- Yeah [00:37:57] Caitlin V: after putting significant effort into forming [00:38:00] a relationship with a man. And only after repeated, uh, difficulties, [00:38:05] uh, failures, obstacles, challenges, did they decide that they weren't going to continue to pursue that, and that [00:38:10] they were gonna be fine on their own, and they will be fine on their own, right? [00:38:13] Caitlin V: There's just a lot, um- I'm [00:38:15] [00:38:15] Dr. Taz: gonna ask you this question. Yeah. It's gonna be so inappropriate, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. So can men [00:38:20] really feel masculine given their biology? if they are [00:38:25] not providing- [00:38:25] Caitlin V: Hmm ... [00:38:26] Dr. Taz: and being kind of that [00:38:30] financial safeguard, 'cause have we really evolved to the point, have men had [00:38:35] the opportunity of time and space to truly evolve to the point [00:38:40] where they can be okay biologically? [00:38:43] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. I'm not talking about consciously and the [00:38:45] decisions they make, and the intellect, and what you might read in a book. I'm talking about subconsciously. [00:38:50] Are men even there yet- Yeah ... where they can feel safe and feel [00:38:55] okay not being the financial provider- Hmm ... or breadwinner, [00:39:00] whatever word- Right ... we wanna use for it- Yeah [00:39:01] Dr. Taz: um, and still maintain their ma- [00:39:05] masculinity? Or is it sort of killing them on the inside and driving up cortisol and driving down [00:39:10] testosterone? [00:39:10] Caitlin V: Well, so, so both are true, but if we go back in time prior to [00:39:15] the Industrial Revolution- Yeah ... the expectation that men would leave the house for eight to 10 [00:39:20] hours a day- Right [00:39:20] Caitlin V: in order to get a paycheck, in order to provide for their family. If we go back in time before that, which is [00:39:25] the majority of all time, right? Right. Um, the, the way that men provided for their family was, like, through [00:39:30] physical labor- Right ... often working a farm, growing food, hunting and killing, and providing [00:39:35] actual literal protection for the family against physical threats and violence, often in the [00:39:40] form of other men. [00:39:40] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:39:41] Caitlin V: Most, most predominantly in the form- Right ... of other men. Right. And so, yes, absolutely, there are [00:39:45] ways that men can go back and feel very grounded in their status as man, [00:39:50] as protector, as, you know, ca- caretaker of the family when it comes to outside of the [00:39:55] home. It's just that those, those spaces are shifting- Hmm [00:39:58] Caitlin V: pretty significantly. So [00:40:00] men can no longer look at leaving the house and earning a paycheck [00:40:05] as the way to feel grounded in themselves in their masculinity, and they're also dealing with the fact that [00:40:10] that might have been the only example that was ever demonstrated for them. Yeah. That might be the only- Right [00:40:13] Caitlin V: you know, we're now- Role model, right ... how [00:40:15] many generations deeply past that point? Right. We don't have any recent memories- Right ... of someone who, [00:40:20] who provided for their family in any other way, right? Right. And, and because money is, um, [00:40:25] s- the, it, it sort of symbolizes talent, and, uh, intelligence, [00:40:30] and capacity, right? [00:40:30] Caitlin V: Like, we, we see in our culture today, the people who we see as most capable, [00:40:35] most talented, most intelligent, have the most money. [00:40:37] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:40:38] Caitlin V: And whether that is actually true, it doesn't matter, because [00:40:40] that is- That's just the way it is ... that is the way - Right ... everything is perceived today. [00:40:43] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:40:43] Caitlin V: And so it [00:40:45] takes an individual man the willingness to say that, "I'm not going to allow my masculinity to [00:40:50] be defined by a paycheck." [00:40:52] Caitlin V: Hmm. "And instead I'm gonna be ask- I'm gonna be defining my own [00:40:55] masculinity for myself through my behaviors, through the way that I care for other people, through the way that I, like, move my [00:41:00] body, through the, the way that I engage with other men, through the, the service that I provide, through giving my [00:41:05] gifts to my community." [00:41:06] Caitlin V: There are m- so many routes to that, but it really does take a lot of courage, because it [00:41:10] requires sort of dismantling- Hmm ... so much of what we've been taught to have it. [00:41:13] Dr. Taz: How can women help [00:41:15] that situation, right? Like, if you are a powerful woman, you know, and we see this all the time, right? Mm-hmm. Like, [00:41:20] powerful women seem to have trouble in a marriage situation frequently, right?[00:41:25] [00:41:25] Dr. Taz: If you're a powerful woman or, you know, kind of driving the family from a financial [00:41:30] standpoint, you know, is there something women should be aware of- [00:41:33] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm ... [00:41:34] Dr. Taz: when they have that [00:41:35] power and that responsibility? [00:41:36] Caitlin V: Yeah. I think this is so important for us to discuss too- Yeah ... because I think a lot of the, [00:41:40] like, uh, influencer [00:41:42] Caitlin V: I mean, I don't know. Everyone's algorithm is different. Right. But I [00:41:45] see a lot of, like, okay, if you're a powerful woman, then you need to, uh, uh, become [00:41:50] more feminine when you get home, right? Right. Uh, like put down your, your- Masks ... sword and shield- Yeah ... when you [00:41:55] get home. And, like, I, I, I relate to that. I run a company. [00:41:58] Caitlin V: Yeah. I am a powerful woman. Yeah. Like, [00:42:00] I've been the ... I was the financial provider for many years. Uh, I, I grew up in a house where my mother was the [00:42:05] breadwinner, breadwinner- Mm-hmm ... and I, I saw it firsthand. So I [00:42:10] feel very strongly that the, the ask should not be for women [00:42:15] to, um, become something that they are not or somehow make themselves smaller- [00:42:20] Smaller, right [00:42:20] Caitlin V: in order to help their man feel bigger. [00:42:22] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:42:23] Caitlin V: I don't think we're doing anyone a service when we do [00:42:25] that. Now, that is not to say that it doesn't feel good to get out of your work clothes, put on a [00:42:30] dress- Yeah ... like throw on some makeup. Maybe if you love making food for your family and that helps you to sort of, like, put [00:42:35] down- Yeah [00:42:35] Caitlin V: the stressors of the work. Yeah. And even if you don't work outside of the house, like existing out in the world, we have [00:42:40] traffic. Yeah. You can almost get hit by a car. Yeah, totally. Like, there's, there are stressors that are not explicitly work-related, and you don't have [00:42:45] to have girl boss energy in order to be dealing with. [00:42:47] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:42:47] Caitlin V: But, um, I like to think [00:42:50] about it more in terms of how do you, uh, uplift and [00:42:55] support your man into feeling into his bigness- Mm-hmm ... in ways that don't require you to [00:43:00] feel like you're becoming [00:43:01] Dr. Taz: smaller? [00:43:03] Caitlin V: Mm. And some of that is, um, [00:43:05] uh, uh- Uh, oh, Justin Patrick Pierce and London [00:43:10] Angel Winters, I believe are their name, great thought leaders in this area. [00:43:13] Caitlin V: Uh, they've sort of taken the, like, [00:43:15] masculine-feminine polarity conversation and switched it into alpha and omega energy. [00:43:19] Dr. Taz: [00:43:20] Mm. [00:43:20] Caitlin V: And they give a great example, which is, like, if we're both in our alpha energy, which like, s- my, my ex-husband [00:43:25] and I, we, we ran a business together. So we were often both in our alpha energy. [00:43:28] Caitlin V: We were, like, getting it done- Yep ... [00:43:30] leading, taking charge, right? Yeah. And then we would both switch into our omega energy, which is like, "I don't know, you decide. What, what do [00:43:35] we wanna have for dinner?" Yeah. "What do we wanna watch on Netflix," right? Yeah. Like, both of us are in that space. So the [00:43:40] question is not like, um, should one person based on their gender or their genitals- [00:43:44] Dr. Taz: [00:43:45] Switch [00:43:45] Caitlin V: constantly be in one role- Right ... or the other. Right. It's like, how much fluidity do we have that we can [00:43:50] switch between them? Because sometimes it's nice for me to be alpha and for him to play omega, or for me to be leader and him to [00:43:55] play follower. Yeah. Sometimes it's nice to consciously switch those and he play leader and I play follower. [00:43:59] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:43:59] Caitlin V: It's [00:44:00] really more about the, the fact that there is that spark- That's [00:44:02] Dr. Taz: cool, [00:44:02] Caitlin V: yeah ... than that- Yeah ... one person needs to be, [00:44:05] like, uh, artificially behaving- Mm ... uh, in a way that's not authentic to them. Yeah. Because what... [00:44:10] that's not sustainable. Right. You know? You're just pretending. That doesn't feel good. [00:44:13] Caitlin V: Right. And then, and then when it doesn't work, 'cause it [00:44:15] doesn't feel good or natural to anybody, then you're like, "Oh, no. Is our relationship further gone than we thought?" Right. "Do I [00:44:20] need to significantly change the way that I do things in the world?" And the answer is no. [00:44:23] Dr. Taz: No. [00:44:25] Where, where does, like- performance, right? [00:44:27] Dr. Taz: The idea of performance or, [00:44:30] you know, how they're gonna- how a man is gonna be in the bedroom. Like, how does that impact [00:44:35] intimacy? What's going on there? [00:44:36] Caitlin V: Oh my gosh. I mean, that is the name of the game. Or that, that really is it. Yeah. Uh, if I, [00:44:40] if I could, um, if I could underline and bullet point like every [00:44:45] single sexual challenge that men face, it pretty much comes down to performance in one [00:44:50] way or another. [00:44:50] Caitlin V: And the expectation that we have collectively of men, that they are going to want [00:44:55] sex, be able to have sex, uh, be able to, um, know what, know what their [00:45:00] partner needs in sex- Mm-hmm ... uh, and that if they don't do any of those things all of the time, then they [00:45:05] are failing. Mm-hmm. I mean, that is the definition of performance pressure. [00:45:07] Caitlin V: I have to show up and be a certain way and succeed [00:45:10] in order to be loved, in order to be a man. And remember, masculinity is something that you have to, like, bake fresh every [00:45:15] day, right? Yeah. You don't just like, you know, go through puberty and you're a man- Right ... in the same way that, like, we become women.[00:45:20] [00:45:20] Caitlin V: Men are constantly having to prove that they are men, right? You don't hear, like, anyone say, "Woman [00:45:25] up." I mean, maybe we hear that more nowadays- Yeah. ... but, like, the phrase man up has a lot of meaning. Man up. Right. Like, man [00:45:30] up, right? There is a way to perform masculinity, and you need to do it, or you can get gut checked. [00:45:34] Caitlin V: You can get checked [00:45:35] by another man. You can get checked by a woman. You're not being a man. You're not man enough, right? All of these are [00:45:40] ways that we remind men all of the time that they need to perform masculinity in a [00:45:45] specific way in order to earn love, in order to earn their place, like, in society, right? [00:45:49] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. And so [00:45:50] all of that comes with them into the bedroom, and it comes with them into the bedroom with this, like, [00:45:55] additional level of shame and an inability to discuss how common whatever it is that they're [00:46:00] going through is. Mm-hmm. So those compound, and, you know, really, really [00:46:05] well-meaning, intelligent, phenomenal men of character and of value are [00:46:10] put in this position where they feel like something is [00:46:15] broken if their performance isn't being executed in the way that it's supposed [00:46:20] to be. [00:46:20] Caitlin V: And so they take that internally. [00:46:22] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:46:23] Caitlin V: And sometimes they do something about it, [00:46:25] right? Like, they seek help, they seek support, they read books, they go to coaching, they do this. [00:46:28] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:46:28] Caitlin V: But a, a, a fair [00:46:30] number of men who, like, are otherwise extremely successful and capable really internalize [00:46:35] that and, you know, allow it almost to, like, rot- [00:46:37] Dr. Taz: Mm [00:46:37] Caitlin V: and to, to become something that, [00:46:40] uh, becomes a barrier between them and, and the people that they love. [00:46:43] Dr. Taz: And that becomes a bigger [00:46:45] disconnection. Mm-hmm. And this is performance in terms of performance in the bedroom- Yep ... or just [00:46:50] performing as a male? [00:46:51] Caitlin V: I mean, performing as a male, but specifically it really [00:46:55] impacts intimate relationships. [00:46:56] Caitlin V: Mm-hmm. Um, and that's, that's, you know, the area that I love focusing [00:47:00] on for men- [00:47:00] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:47:00] Caitlin V: is reframing and shifting their conversation around [00:47:05] a performance-based model and into more of a pleasure-based model. [00:47:09] Dr. Taz: [00:47:10] So maybe go into that just a little bit more, because if, if, if a man is g- listening [00:47:15] today and is, is feeling that way, like just pressured, there's financial pressure, there's [00:47:20] family pressure, there's, you know, whatever is going on with them. [00:47:23] Dr. Taz: There could be medical pressure, right? [00:47:25] Mm-hmm. Like, there's biology that is changing for many men, and I would put that plug in of make sure, you [00:47:30] know, you understand where your hormones are and get those hormones checked and, and understand where your [00:47:35] cortisol is. I mean, I had this conversation with my husband who's, you know, dealing with, you know, his own hormone [00:47:40] shifting and cholesterol shifting, and I'm like, "I'm not doing anything until the chole- until the cortisol is better." [00:47:44] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Because the [00:47:45] cortisol was through the roof, you know? And so I think, you know, really understanding your [00:47:50] biology is probably just as important for men as it is for women. Mm-hmm. We tell women all the time to- Yes ... [00:47:55] understand their hormones, so men too need to do that. But, you know, in addition [00:48:00] to that, like, what can we help them with in terms of a toolbox if they're feeling [00:48:05] this way? [00:48:05] Dr. Taz: Mm. Like, if we gave them three things to do, what would you tell them to do? From, from a- Homework. Homework [00:48:10] time ... [00:48:10] Caitlin V: from a fe- from a partner's perspective. [00:48:11] Dr. Taz: From their... No. [00:48:12] Caitlin V: Oh, directly to men. [00:48:13] Dr. Taz: Directly to men, and then [00:48:15] yes, you know, from a partner's perspective. Yeah. What's the homework for everyone? [00:48:18] Caitlin V: So I, [00:48:20] um, I, I, I typically start with the physical body, but you covered that, right? [00:48:23] Caitlin V: Yeah. Women are far more likely to [00:48:25] go to get- Right ... their, uh, typical health screenings. They're far more likely to do deeper dives- Right ... [00:48:30] into their [00:48:30] Dr. Taz: health. [00:48:30] Caitlin V: Yes. So, you know, I like to say to men, like, "If you won't do it for your sex life, what will you do it [00:48:35] for?" [00:48:35] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:48:35] Caitlin V: Right? You maybe don't wanna get screened and find out that you're pre-diabetic. [00:48:38] Caitlin V: I, I get it. Yeah. That can be very scary, [00:48:40] you know? Yeah. I still think you should do it. [00:48:41] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:48:41] Caitlin V: Get over it. There's a [00:48:42] Dr. Taz: lot of that. Can you help me with that? There's so much of that. [00:48:45] Like, they're so scared to come, and they so wanna game the system. Mm. They're like, [00:48:50] "Well, I wasn't gonna come because X, Y, and Z happened. [00:48:52] Dr. Taz: I knew my A1C would be off, and I'm, I knew my [00:48:55] lipids would be off." Right. "So I was gonna wait 90 more days-" [00:48:56] Caitlin V: Right ... " [00:48:57] Dr. Taz: and then come." [00:48:58] Caitlin V: Well, I think all of that really does also come down [00:49:00] to performer. Like, there's something broken about me if I'm not healthy, then, and [00:49:05] then I have to face all these other truths- You are [00:49:06] Caitlin V: and I, I'm just, I'm strong and I'm tough, and I've been, uh- I know better ... taught how to do [00:49:10] this. Yeah. So I can't... Again, it's like- Yeah ... if it, it doesn't mean you're broken. Yeah. Period. You know? [00:49:15] Uh, and the sooner that you get in, the, the better that your results are gonna be, almost universally, right? [00:49:20] Like, prevention is the best path. [00:49:20] Caitlin V: And you'll be on a path, [00:49:21] Dr. Taz: like an ef- efficient path for you. Yeah. And so swimming in like, "Well, I [00:49:25] know I need to eat better and move more," you know what I mean? Like, there, there may be something you're missing. Mm-hmm. You know, that's [00:49:30] basic biology. [00:49:30] Caitlin V: Yeah. And, um- I mean, it's, it's, it like comes down to that same trope of like men not wanting to ask for directions, right? [00:49:34] Caitlin V: Right. Like, [00:49:35] I mean, if men are supposed to always know- Yeah ... what's going on and, and what to do next, and [00:49:40] we do put, we put so much pressure on men- Right ... to know what they're supposed to do- Right ... all the time, in and out of the bedroom, then like [00:49:45] it stands to reason that they- Right ... they would not go in and seek the advice of any kind of professional- Right [00:49:49] Caitlin V: because like [00:49:50] they're supposed- Right ... to know what to do. Right. So drop that nonsense. Like, go get your- Exactly ... get your physical health- [00:49:54] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:49:54] Caitlin V: [00:49:55] looked at first. Um, and then I typically go to, um, [00:50:00] mental and then, like, emotional wellbeing, right? Okay. So, uh, mental means checking [00:50:05] in on the stories that you tell yourself, the narratives, the things that you believe [00:50:10] are true. [00:50:10] Caitlin V: This is one of the things that I learned really early on in coaching with men, is that, uh, they would come in and [00:50:15] they'd be like, "Well-" I'm a realist and I'm very logical, therefore all of these [00:50:20] things are true. And I would say, "Okay, I, I- let's... Maybe we have different definitions of [00:50:25] truth," but all of those things seem, like, highly anecdotal and you just experienced them once and you took it like, "All women [00:50:30] are like that. [00:50:30] Caitlin V: All relationships are like this." Mm-hmm. And, and so I would help them to, like, un-examine or to, to [00:50:35] pa- unpack and examine where those thoughts and beliefs- Right ... that they're like really, [00:50:40] there's so much conviction around them. And it is scary to, like, begin to let go and loosen up on your world [00:50:45] beliefs, right? [00:50:45] Caitlin V: Yeah. Because we believe that we built our scaffolding. Yeah. Uh, the thing that holds us up in life [00:50:50] or holds our relationship up, right, like built on these beliefs. What would it mean if I began to loosen them up and let them go? [00:50:55] Well, it probably would mean that you lived a happier and healthier- Mm-hmm [00:50:58] Caitlin V: life. And, and that's the thing that might stand on [00:51:00] the other side of confronting those things. It's not like a singular piece of homework, but more like- Like the narrative- ... [00:51:04] Dr. Taz: a mindset shift ... the [00:51:05] stories you tell yourself, right? [00:51:06] Caitlin V: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and fortunately, starting with the mind is a lot [00:51:10] easier for men than going maybe through, like, the emotions- Mm-hmm [00:51:12] Caitlin V: or relationship or, or communication or [00:51:15] th- even spiritual entry points because we can all get that our mindset impacts our [00:51:20] wellbeing and our lives, period. [00:51:21] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:51:21] Caitlin V: Right? Uh, and it ex- it impacts what we expect from other people [00:51:25] and how we treat other people. And so I would say begin with, uh, a, a thorough [00:51:30] examination of your mindset and beliefs around sex, around women, around partnership, around yourself, [00:51:35] around masculinity. [00:51:36] Caitlin V: Mm. No small task. [00:51:37] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:51:37] Caitlin V: But certainly the results that you will get from [00:51:40] a thorough ex- exploration and reflection will create the foundation upon which everything [00:51:45] else can rest, right? I also say it always starts with you. Uh, your sexuality starts with you. It's [00:51:50] not something that your partner owes you. [00:51:51] Caitlin V: It's not something that your partner or your relationship [00:51:55] creates. It predates them. [00:51:57] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:51:57] Caitlin V: It's something that has existed even before you went through [00:52:00] puberty. It was different then, but your sexuality will be with you until you take your final breath. It is [00:52:05] not made by another person. It is not for another person. [00:52:07] Caitlin V: And so when we, when we examine our [00:52:10] own sexuality from our own perspective- [00:52:12] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:52:12] Caitlin V: that can be truly revelatory as well, and I would [00:52:15] give that to both men and women, right? Hmm. So much of us, uh, are raised and conditioned to [00:52:20] believe that sex is bad, dirty, shameful. Right. Only do it with one person- One person. [00:52:24] Caitlin V: Right ... that you're married [00:52:25] to under these really specific circumstances. Right. But the truth is underneath it all, that's, that's not who we are. That's not [00:52:30] how we evolved. We can have any relationship with sexuality that we want, but it has to be grounded in our own reality, right? [00:52:35] [00:52:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:52:35] Caitlin V: And then for men especially, I would say to, to [00:52:40] develop a practice or some kind of relationship to your emotions. [00:52:44] Caitlin V: [00:52:45] Hmm. You know, so often we, we discuss emotions as if they are in the wheelhouse of women- [00:52:50] Right ... and, and not at all in the wheelhouse of men, right? Right. [00:52:52] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:52:52] Caitlin V: But, like, often men [00:52:55] filter all of their emotions through a handful of emotions that are, you know, socially acceptable [00:53:00] Anger is an emotion, right? [00:53:01] Caitlin V: Yep. So, so if you have outbursts, if you experience anger, [00:53:05] or you experience shutdown, if you experience sadness, if you experience going internal, if you experience numbness, all [00:53:10] of these are emotions. [00:53:11] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:53:11] Caitlin V: You have an emotional landscape whether you like it or not. You know, boy [00:53:15] babies and boy toddlers cry in the same way that girl babies and girl toddlers do. [00:53:18] Caitlin V: We are not different- Right ... in [00:53:20] this way. It's just that we've been conditioned differently, right? And so when men repress or [00:53:25] suppress their emotional landscape, they create sort of like these like emotional [00:53:30] volcanoes, like hotspots- Mm-hmm ... where emotions tend to flare up and come out. Yep. But they also then are less [00:53:35] practiced when other emotions come through. [00:53:36] Caitlin V: Like, we're, we're all gonna lose people that we love, right? If we're fortunate enough [00:53:40] to live a long life, uh, we will lose things, people, animals- [00:53:45] Right ... homes, jobs- Right ... like, things that are important to us. And if you don't have a [00:53:50] skillset that allows you to process things like grief, uh, [00:53:55] then you also don't have a skillset that's gonna allow you to, like, really dive in and experience the [00:54:00] heights of joy and happiness and satisfaction. [00:54:03] Caitlin V: Your emotions [00:54:05] are not, um, you can't suppress one and allow for another, right? Yeah. You can't keep sadness at bay but [00:54:10] experience joy all day. That, not, not- Right ... not in a real way, right? Right. There's certainly people who pretend that they [00:54:15] can. Uh, but that is not reality, right? And, and having a [00:54:20] relationship with your emotions and knowing what's going on internally, how to express them, how to talk about them, that's [00:54:25] not weakness. [00:54:25] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:54:25] Caitlin V: That's actually... Th- they're, they're fuel, right? The, the, the, the spike [00:54:30] that you feel when you, when you have emotions that, like, draw you to do things, that cause you to take [00:54:35] action, like, you can either have that working for you or you can have that working against you. Mm. And [00:54:40] so I would say if you start anywhere, start with your physical body, examine your mental [00:54:45] landscape, and then develop some kind of a relationship with your emotions- Mm [00:54:49] Caitlin V: that [00:54:50] empowers you instead of, uh, uh, disempowering you. [00:54:53] Dr. Taz: And all of that is [00:54:55] additive and cumulative to your ability to experience intimacy. [00:54:58] Caitlin V: Yes. In- intimacy is [00:55:00] made up of all of these other pieces. All of these other parts are foundational- Mm ... to our [00:55:05] relationship with intimacy. And, you know, if I was to add one other thing onto that, I would say [00:55:10] practice and learn how to communicate. [00:55:12] Caitlin V: We take for granted that because we know how to speak to each [00:55:15] other that we know how to communicate with each other, and we simply do not. Even, even people who are [00:55:20] super stellar communicators in the boardroom- [00:55:22] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:55:22] Caitlin V: can really lack the capacity to [00:55:25] communicate inside of the bedroom. Mm. And so don't start with the most fraught, most [00:55:30] difficult, most vulnerable conversations- Yeah [00:55:32] Caitlin V: around sex and sexuality. [00:55:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:55:33] Caitlin V: Start with the stuff that [00:55:35] is easier, the low-hanging fruit, the things that you know that you need to say or communicate about. Give [00:55:40] us [00:55:40] Dr. Taz: an example- Um- ... 'cause I think men have trouble with this. [00:55:43] Caitlin V: Yeah, I [00:55:43] Dr. Taz: think- Like, and women too to a certain [00:55:45] extent around this particular topic. [00:55:46] Dr. Taz: Like, how do you enter this conversation? [00:55:48] Caitlin V: Yeah, I think one area that, uh, both, [00:55:50] both sides struggle with there- Mm ... is communicating around desires. [00:55:52] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:55:53] Caitlin V: Right? Mm-hmm. Uh, we, we often [00:55:55] don't know, for women, what we want in bed and intimacy, right? And then we certainly don't know how to [00:56:00] speak to what it is that we want, right? [00:56:01] Caitlin V: So we have this, like, layering of issues there. And men also have sometimes [00:56:05] quite a bit of shame around their desires. Mm. Like, you're not allowed to want that from your wife. Right. You're not allowed [00:56:10] to have those thoughts, even though you do, and you watch them on your phone at night in the bathroom when no one's looking. [00:56:14] Caitlin V: Yeah. [00:56:15] Right? Yeah. And so being able to communicate around our desires outside of the [00:56:20] bedroom, for both of us, really benefits our ability to communicate about them in the bedroom. [00:56:24] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:56:24] Caitlin V: The issue is that [00:56:25] many of us, myself included, can be very detached from our desires, right? Like, [00:56:30] what is it that you wanna do, uh, uh, tonight, this weekend? [00:56:33] Caitlin V: Where do you wanna go to dinner? Like, these are really [00:56:35] small- Mm-hmm ... really easy to, to practice areas, uh, where we can discuss what [00:56:40] our desires really are. Uh, what is it that we want from, from this season of our [00:56:45] life- Mm ... from the rest of this year? [00:56:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:56:47] Caitlin V: A lot of us, just the same way, like, we're afraid to learn that we're pre-diabetic, we're [00:56:50] afraid to set goals for ourself. [00:56:51] Caitlin V: Yeah. We're afraid to be ambitious in other areas of our life. Um, [00:56:55] w- I, I, I begin each year with, like, a pretty robust, um, goal-setting- Yeah ... and mind mapping [00:57:00] process. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I love it. And, you know, look at- I do too. Yeah, and this is, this is part of where we are, right? [00:57:05] Yeah. Right. And one of the desires that I had that I was, like, almost, like, nervous to say out loud is, like, I [00:57:10] wanted to host more dinner parties. [00:57:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:57:11] Caitlin V: Right? [00:57:12] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:57:12] Caitlin V: W- getting clear on that desire and [00:57:15] just naming it, I've had more folks over for dinner, and it's April- Uh-huh ... when we're recording this, than I [00:57:20] did probably, like, all of last year. Oh, wow. It was just getting clear that that desire existed inside of [00:57:25] me, and then having the courage to speak it out loud [00:57:30] and having the capacity to actually be willing to make it happen. [00:57:33] Caitlin V: So anything that, [00:57:35] any- anything that's coming up in the bedroom, if it's difficulty saying something, if it's difficulty being clear with yourself on [00:57:40] something, if it's difficulty, uh, um, you know, communicating your, uh, [00:57:45] uh, requests or the things that you wanna try, like- Yeah ... tr- take those [00:57:50] and develop them outside of the bedroom first, and then take the skill set [00:57:55] that you have created for yourself and built for yourself, and then bring that [00:58:00] into your intimate conversation. [00:58:01] Dr. Taz: Mm. Such good, good information. Are there places couples can [00:58:05] go or men can go even to help them communicate? I feel like that's [00:58:10] such a thing, you know? [00:58:12] Caitlin V: Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, the place [00:58:15] where I actually went to learn a lot of this, and they take a ton of flak, so, so if you've already have your thoughts about this, then, [00:58:20] you know- Yeah, yeah [00:58:21] Caitlin V: y- y- we- you take what, take what works- Right ... leave the rest. Um, but I actually did a lot of work with [00:58:25] Landmark- Okay ... Worldwide Personal Development. Okay. Are you familiar with [00:58:27] Dr. Taz: them? [00:58:28] Caitlin V: No. Um, so they, they exist all over the country. [00:58:30] They have in-person events, um, in major cities and they do online events. But, um, they do, [00:58:35] like, a three-day live event called The Forum. [00:58:36] Caitlin V: It's very confrontational for- Mm-hmm ... a lot of folks. Again, uh, they've taken a lot [00:58:40] of flak. A lot of people have really strong feelings about them. Yeah. Um, so I'm not necessarily plugging them, I'm just saying that [00:58:45] it did work for me. Okay. I, I did Landmark early on in life when, I think it was in my mid-20s, and it [00:58:50] w- it was confronting, but it caused me to get clear on... [00:58:52] Caitlin V: And I was already a pretty good communicator to be fair- [00:58:55] Caused me to get clear where I was lacking integrity, where I would say one thing and then do another. [00:58:59] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:58:59] Caitlin V: [00:59:00] Uh, caused me to get clear on the ways that I, um, had, had, had [00:59:05] considerations for other people. Like, "Oh, I can't say that because that might hurt them," or, "That might bring something up," or, "I shouldn't say [00:59:10] that 'cause they're going-" Right. [00:59:10] Caitlin V: Instead of, like, just honoring that, like, someone needed to say something about- [00:59:14] Dr. Taz: Right, [00:59:14] Caitlin V: right ... [00:59:15] this, this, this relationship and where we had gotten to in it. Right. So that was really [00:59:20] impactful for me, but there are some phenomenal books and resources if that's not where you wanna [00:59:25] start. Non-violent communication. [00:59:27] Caitlin V: Um, there's even books that come out of more, uh, [00:59:30] business and leadership around, uh, honest communication that, that could be beneficial- Mm-hmm ... and [00:59:35] that you can bring into your relationship. And then finding a couples coach if you're, if you're [00:59:40] more... You know, if you're in a good place and you just wanna move forward and be better. [00:59:42] Caitlin V: Right. Or a therapist if you're not in a great place and you [00:59:45] really need to do some deeper work that is especially skilled at helping folks navigate [00:59:50] communication, because those people are trained to be the third person in the room who can say, [00:59:55] "Okay," like, "Pause. We're getting heated. Here's what she's trying to say. [00:59:57] Caitlin V: Here's what he's trying to say. Are you able to get [01:00:00] that? Are you able to receive that? Are you able to, uh, communicate to them what you got from that?" Sometimes [01:00:05] when, when, uh, when it, when it's very difficult to move through communication differences, [01:00:10] having a third party who is neutral, who's paid to be there, can be the thing that [01:00:15] makes all the difference. [01:00:17] Dr. Taz: So in your opinion with this work for both [01:00:20] men and women, can marriages last more than 20 years? [01:00:23] Caitlin V: Yes, absolutely. Yes. I [01:00:25] think with all things, it- it's... We just have to treat it like it is a, [01:00:30] uh, a... We have to treat it like we treat anything else that we want to hold onto in the [01:00:35] long term, whether that is our health, our home, our children. [01:00:39] Dr. Taz: Mm. [01:00:39] Caitlin V: [01:00:40] Right? If we expect that- [01:00:42] Dr. Taz: Grow it. Yeah ... [01:00:43] Caitlin V: yeah, don't just expect that it will take [01:00:45] care of you forever if you don't take care of it first. [01:00:48] Dr. Taz: Mm. I love [01:00:50] that. Well, this has been so enlightening, and I hope both men and [01:00:55] women are able to take from this, you know, and really find a way to [01:01:00] communicate and to really reestablish intimacy if they've loft it- lost it, or if they're in a great place, like, [01:01:05] what are the, what are the things to look out for, you know? [01:01:08] Dr. Taz: So I think this has been incredible. [01:01:10] Where would you lead anyone listening or watching today? Is there some... Is there a resource that you [01:01:15] would point them towards? Or where can they find you- Yeah ... if they wanna work with you? [01:01:19] Caitlin V: Like- So, so I [01:01:20] wrote a book that is essentially, like, my coaching methodology- Okay [01:01:23] Caitlin V: for men- Okay ... in sex and [01:01:25] relationships- Okay ... and it's called Harder, Better, Longer, Stronger: The Science, Skills and Secrets for the Best Sex of Your [01:01:30] Life. [01:01:30] Dr. Taz: Okay. [01:01:30] Caitlin V: Uh, you can get that wherever books are sold. And if books are not necessarily your, um, [01:01:35] favorite mode of, of gathering information, then I have over 1,000 videos [01:01:40] uploaded to YouTube- Wow. [01:01:41] Caitlin V: uh, under my name, Caitlin V- Okay ... spanning, uh, sexuality, spanning [01:01:45] relationships. There's videos on there also for women. [01:01:47] Dr. Taz: Right. [01:01:47] Caitlin V: Um, and that is also a great place to start, [01:01:50] and, and in my channel, I also point regularly to, to the resources that I'm learning [01:01:55] from, and, um, and I try to share those things as much as possible as well. [01:01:58] Dr. Taz: Incredible. [01:02:00] Well, I have so enjoyed this conversation. Cool. I've gotta ask- What? [01:02:02] Caitlin V: I forgot I have a TV show- Oh, my gosh ... that I should point people [01:02:05] to also. And by the way- Little, little thing called my- Oh, by [01:02:08] Dr. Taz: the way. ... [01:02:08] Caitlin V: little TV show that I [01:02:10] did. Um, it's called Good Sex. Okay. It's on HBO Max. Okay. And in it, we actually put cameras in the bedrooms [01:02:15] of- Oh, my gosh [01:02:16] Caitlin V: uh, several different couples. Yeah. And, uh, because it is all me working with [01:02:20] couples, and each, uh, episode and each session shares a lot of tools [01:02:25] and actual techniques- Ooh ... that you might wanna borrow. Yeah. And it's a phenomenal resource to watch with [01:02:30] your significant other. Interesting. So you can watch it, you can pause it, you can talk about it. [01:02:33] Caitlin V: Yeah. You can try some of the [01:02:35] tools. Yeah. You can, know, you can kinda, like, piece together the exercises- Yeah ... that I'm doing and try them at home. Yeah. [01:02:40] Um, so yeah, that's, that's a, that's a pretty significant tool- That's a [01:02:42] Dr. Taz: significant tool ... that, [01:02:44] Caitlin V: uh, [01:02:44] Dr. Taz: Good Sex- Good Sex [01:02:45] on HBO [01:02:45] Caitlin V: Max ... on HBO Max. That's right. [01:02:46] Dr. Taz: And I saw that sex was s- spelled S-E-G-G- [01:02:49] Caitlin V: Oh, [01:02:50] just, just to get away from the algorithm police. [01:02:52] Caitlin V: Ah, okay. Yeah. Got it. It's just spelled regular S-E-X on [01:02:55] HBO Max. On HBO Max. 'Cause it is [01:02:56] Dr. Taz: HBO. Okay. You know? Got it, gotcha. All right. Excellent. All right, final [01:03:00] question: What makes you whole? [01:03:02] Caitlin V: Mm.[01:03:05] [01:03:08] Caitlin V: You know, this is on my mind a [01:03:10] lot. Um [01:03:14] Caitlin V: [01:03:15] Having a community around me for whom I can go to [01:03:20] for anything- [01:03:20] Dr. Taz: Mm ... [01:03:21] Caitlin V: is the thing that makes me home. [01:03:22] Dr. Taz: I love that. I love that. Well, [01:03:25] this has been incredible. If you've been watching and listening, hopefully you've learned something from this [01:03:30] episode, or you'll share it with someone, maybe a man in your life who really needs to hear this. [01:03:34] Dr. Taz: [01:03:35] I think I work with men, I meet a lot of men, I'm married, I have a son, [01:03:40] you know, and communication continues to be an area of vulnerability, which then I [01:03:45] think leads them down roads maybe they didn't expect. So share it with somebody that you [01:03:50] love, and remember, we post new episodes every week, so subscribe and I'll see you next [01:03:55] time. [01:03:55] Caitlin V: Before you go, take a second to reflect on what stood out for you today. [01:04:00] Then, if you can, leave a quick review wherever you're listening. It really helps [01:04:05] other people discover Whole [01:04:06] Dr. Taz: Plus and start their own healing journey. And don't forget [01:04:10] to follow me on Instagram, @drtazmd. I love hearing how these episodes [01:04:15] are supporting you