Latest / The High-Performing Technical Leader / Ep. 35- Why You Should Hire SEs Who've Never Been in That Seat with Tobias Rott, Pre-Sales Career Coach

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Ep. 35- Why You Should Hire SEs Who've Never Been in That Seat with Tobias Rott, Pre-Sales Career Coach · The High-Performing Technical Leader

• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hello, hello, everybody.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the High Performing Technical Leader podcast.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Arvi Krakanji.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: And as a reminder, we always put this intentionally live and unedited with all of our guests.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I'm really, really excited to dig in today.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually joined by Tobias Roth.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: He is a pre-sales coach and also solution consultant.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, today's topic, it's one that keeps on coming on and on and on, especially in pre-sales.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really excited to dive deep today with Toby.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh thank you.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining me, Toby, today.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks for having me.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, honestly, I kind of just want to dig right into it and understand a little bit more about your background.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Tell the audience how you broke into pre-sales 10 years ago, and I believe you spent a little bit of time as a recruiter uh in between that, and then what pulled you back into solution consulting?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think this is a wonderful question.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's um I always loved the technology and I always loved the sales part.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And um I always love to solve complex problems.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And at one moment, as a recruiter, um, what could be more complex than people?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: But at one moment I wanted to do to focus more on technology, and that was the reason I decided, okay.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody told me a day before also there might be a role that could excite you, and that was the reason why I said, okay, now it's for me um time to make a courier switch and start my best attempt to try to break into pre-sales or solution consulting.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Whoever that person was seems like they put you onto the right path.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I love that.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was it was a little bit like you know, this you have a conversation at a dinner table with a friend, and uh you say a little bit, oh, I'm missing the excitement in my job.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: I would like if there would be a role who could do XYZ, and they suddenly say, Hey, there's something it's called solution consulting.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then from there, what made you focus on helping people get into pre-sales?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, was there anything specific you were looking to solve, or maybe another lucky conversation that pinged an idea?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: The thing is, it started at my recruiting time.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe you notice this.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: You have a lot of great candidates, and they are just not aware of it.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen so many people in tech and they have this fantastic basics, they know the insights of technology.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, they struggle a little bit because they often don't really know how to market themselves, how to position themselves.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And on the other side, I have seen so many people who were very good at marketing but were missing the technical technology, it's the technological skills.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: And my um my thrive was just hey, bring this together.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see the best people in solution consulting, and I want to help the people who already have tech experience, but maybe struggling a little bit how to place themselves in front of recruiters and hiring managers.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very good point.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing I wanted to clarify maybe for anybody that's listening that either is an engineer and uh has no idea what a solution consultant does, or maybe they're in a completely different career.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, right before our live, I had somebody comment on our post and said that they were super excited for this episode because they were a teacher before becoming and getting into pre-sales.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, for those that have no idea what an SCE or solution consultant does, what is behind the title?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what is a typical day-to-day look like?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, I I think this is a great question because there's often a lot of confusion because it starts, we have many different titles.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Solution consulting solution, solution engineer, solution architect, value engineer is the new strand.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um, what they all have in common is three things.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing is this discovery that we say understanding a customer problem.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know this probably better as a high-end manager, you have to understand what the other side would like to fill with their role.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is you have to configure a solution, so you have to come up with a solution.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the third thing is you have to demo the value, so you have to explain why your solution is better than any other solution.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I would call this the three pillars of pre-sales.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And if these main activities are part of the role, I would call it this is a solution consulting solution engineer or in general pre-sales role.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I love that.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then if I'm listening to this and I'm trying to break into pre-sales specifically, is there any big mistakes that you see, whether it's like from the technical side or maybe somebody that comes from a least technical side when they're trying to switch into pre-sales?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I wouldn't call it really a mystic.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: I would say there's a trap because we see that there's currently some shifting.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it started, I would say, four or three years ago, where we see that the market was shifting.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: We came out of a boom time.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: So money was cheap, tech companies invested into growth, and everybody was hiring.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And the biggest risk at this time was not hire enough people, right?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: So probably a lot of companies were running open doors to you and say, hey, we need more solution consultants.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Then the market switched, and while it is currently still growth, I would call it more efficient growth.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So companies are much more risk-averse.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And what's currently on the market, what I see is like companies are really asking, can we justify to hire a new person?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And how much time will this person need to bring value to our clients and company?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say the trap is currently using methods from the past where we had high growth times where everybody wanted to hire new people, which were but which were often more activity, uh, let's say getting more referrals, getting more applications out.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a numbers game.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you you heard all of it.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say the biggest trap is that you're relying on networking certifications and referral before you have understood how you could help the other side to succeed.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, in a nutshell, I would say the biggest trap is currently focus on a strategy that is based on more hope and activity and less on a strategy to make the value obvious that you could bring to a company as a solution concept.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's really good.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to dive a little bit deeper into that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm identifying with that right now, what are some things I can do to change that?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you have some advice on if I'm looking to break into pre-sales, what are maybe some of the easiest options I have of doing that?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, if if we're looking, what are the biggest challenges currently in solution consulting?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um one of the biggest solution, one of the biggest, sorry, biggest challenges is understanding just the other side.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and once again, I mean, you specialize in a recruiter for pre-sales because you know the in and outs much better than let's say a generalized recruiter, a recruiter for let's say software developers.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And in tech, it's the same thing because now with the AI boom that we have, it's just like everything gets just more niche, customer problems get very specific.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And what is coolly missing is on the front is that people who really understand the customer.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are an a candidate, the first thing that you could do is you look to the skills from the past that took you years to build, right?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like software development, which is which is still a very valuable skill, even if in AI times, because a software developer, you know where AI can help, where it doesn't, which technology to use for cybersecurity, which not for the specific edge cases.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then you look for companies who could take advantage of the skills that you have acquired over years that nobody can learn in a weekend course.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the first thing what I would um um um tell people who are considering a switch is where in the past have you solved and seen problems that other companies are trying to solve with software.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Very good.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if like based on what you're saying, it seems like your core methodology is helping candidates find their unique differentiator.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: How do you help them find it?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like any specific questions that you either ask them or have them ask themselves where they can maybe not see it themselves?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it's it's a good question because you could say, yeah, but what can you see that others can't?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing is often in life is it's much easier if you're um coming from the audience than you're playing on the pitch.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And what we are doing is we're looking just one level deeper.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that means this is what I'm doing with clients, is it's like in a conversation, is it's like we're looking to really what are the skills that took you years to build?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: What problems have you solved?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's the same thing what a solution consultant, by the way, does in discovery.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're digging a little bit deeper until you find the gold.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, where are really the things that companies are currently very thirsty to pay for, where somebody has experienced the skill.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're gonna we're gonna use that, we're gonna use that experience to align it to companies who exactly need that kind of skill.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is so good because I I go through tons of interviews every week, and it's honestly hard for people to sell themselves.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's very easy to sell a product or a service, but having the communication skill set to also sell yourself the right way is honestly really hard.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Something I see candidates struggle with a lot.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I always typically say, hey, you need to you need to work on, you know, how you talk about your experience and most importantly, your value, not just, you know, even if you were in pre-sales prior to that, just because you were, you know, as a solution consultant before doesn't mean that the company's gonna hire you, or that you're automatically a good solution consultant or sales engineer.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: So being able to really explain your value and understand your unique differentiator is harder than you think it is, but once you have it, it's very easy to learn how to talk around it and you know communicate it to the hiring managers.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a gift.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's like if you are able to say in under 20 seconds, why should somebody hire you for pre-sales without pre-sales experience?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: You could use this technique to almost sell anything.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's yeah, and it and like you said, at the beginning, it needs some practice because um sales is not deterministic.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's like there's no right or wrong answer, like in solution, is like in a software engineer.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's always the human component in it, and um and and what I notice often is this also is that it starts with a mindset and the belief because many of the clients that I coached in the past they were just not aware of the goal that they had in the past.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you're doing something every day and solving it for you, it's pretty easy.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we tend as humans to see things that we're not able to do much more valuable than the things that we're doing on a day-to-day basis, and um, at the moment that the people understanding, hey, this is what you're doing, companies need that.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: The switch of this beliefs changes often everything, and the rest is just technically.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: How do I summarize what you just said?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: How do you summarize this in 20 seconds?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do I be precise and human in my words?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, this is something that I would say almost anybody could learn.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, it's it starts really with the awareness what kind of value the people have.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's such a good point.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll say this too.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, sometimes when you're in it so much and you do like the same thing maybe over and over again, you might not realize that what you're doing is special or very valuable because to you is like you know, your typical day's work.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, there's been times where I jump on calls with candidates and they're like, oh, I've done you know, one, two, three.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, wow, that's pretty impressive.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Oh, is it?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's just kind of like in my day-to-day.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes you also need like a third party's perspective to really say, like, hold on a second, what you've done is really impressive, and maybe it's your day-to-day job, but that is so valuable for companies, and sometimes again, you just don't realize it because you think it's you're normal for you.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it it can start with simple things, it's it can be stuffed with the second language.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you're if you're a solution consultant and speak a language of a specific market like uh the German market or the Spanish market, a lot of doors open or Italian.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: They had somebody, they were looking for somebody because in Italy English is not as common as in other countries in the world.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: And also, if you're going into this kind of conversation with clients, their cultural little, I would call it nuances in it.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer, let's say, of somebody from the Netherlands compared to somebody from the US, um, the interpretation can be quite different.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have this, that's a valuable skill as well.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Such a good point, especially at least speaking from for the US market, the Spanish language is huge, right?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if you know it and you're bilingual, again, you might think it's normal, but really can be very valuable, especially for sharing companies.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: So love that you mentioned that as an example.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is there any other example, by the way, that you can share?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe somebody's listening, like, oh, maybe I do this, and I hadn't thought that it would be special.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I what I always like to say is there's currently a shift that we see in the market.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like there's this company Harvey.ai.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe some of you, some of you already know this company.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're very successful um in selling software to lawyers.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: And they and they're not hiring solution engineers.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: What they're doing is they're hiring lawyers.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: So the the requirement is hey, you need to be at least three years in this uh in this profession of a lawyer.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because lawyers, I mean, I probably you have seen suits, I have seen the TV show suits, I love suits, but I have no idea what a lawyer does.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I know my sister, she is a lawyer, and um they have different days what we have in front of the people who are sitting in in our tech companies, and they have different needs and they have different behavior.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what they realize is this it's much easier to ramp up somebody who has this years of context to solution consultant than to take a professional solution consultant and explain them what a lawyer does the whole day.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is something that a lot of people don't know.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Other profession would be teachers, yeah.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: So teachers know how kids work, where software can help, where not.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: This is another perfect example, and also an example you don't really need experience in tech to break into pre-sells, it helps, but also other areas in life where you have experienced problems and how um how customers work where software can improve their day-to-day life, this is also very valuable.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that that's actually a really good example because I will say, even in uh for me lately working with companies, having domain expertise has been something that keeps coming up over and over again.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I totally understand that there's you know certain nuances, or maybe certain products that don't necessarily need domain expertise coming in, or maybe it will be valuable for somebody to come in from a whole different new perspective.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: But especially for something complicated like you know, a lawyer software that you need to sell, or um, you know, to technical products like cybersecurity or network security, those are really technical products that typically domain expertise are more and more important than other ones.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what would you say to somebody that is looking for obviously getting into pre-sales but doesn't have the domain expertise to go after all the like how would you tell them to focus on you know what to go after?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I would I would look and what I call this is the three-step system.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's I would look first, okay.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: What is what I actually am excited about?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because what excites you is often the things that you like to improve where other people see it as work.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: So Lionel Messi, Ronaldo, they trained everyday football because it was fun for them.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: So this is what I would do is the first thing is what is really a topic that excites you, and then you you use that topic, it could be AI as well, and you start with it.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: You start to use it in your day-to-day life and start solving problems with it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And at the moment you start to solve problems, you're already getting into the solution mind solution consultant mindset because you have to make prioritizations, you have to you you're gonna test several solutions which works, which doesn't, which works the best, and why.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And this is really gold because this is not only learning in theory from a textbook, you're living what you're later gonna guide clients to success, how I call how we are calling it in solution engineering.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, even if you're let's say in the university, let your inner voice guide you.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think many people say passion, interest, curiosity, whatever, and just try to test it as much as possible, maybe make a little side business, try to sell something online, and then you're gonna see um a whole you're gonna open a whole lot of solutions and expertise that you cannot train in a university or in just a course.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one question I have for you like if I don't have sales engineering or solution consulting experience, should I put in my resume or even LinkedIn, for example, which is huge nowadays, some skill set that relates based on my past experience, I would also relate to an SE's responsibilities, um, even though I haven't done that as an official job title?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: The quick answer is yes, absolutely.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So the thing is this the goal is is like for um, or let's say the other way around, a hiring manager's job is quite challenging.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're getting 20, I don't know, how many resumes on the table?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And they're deciding, like real clients are deciding.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: They want to see in 20 seconds why they should invite somebody for um for a job interview and then give them a job offer.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: So the easier you can make hiring managers and recruiter this answer with your linked and your resume, the better it is.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the two things that I recommend to focus is exactly what you just said show how your past you already have done the job.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: What I just said, the three pillars, uh, discovery, configure solution, demo value.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing is it's like you look where in your industry you have some unique experience.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're an SAP, you look uh you look what kind of problems you have to solve in SAP and where you use the three pillars in this specific area.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because now you show two things.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: You show that you understand the clients of a specific industry, and you show that you already have the solution consulting way of thinking by showing that you're using the three pillars.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's very true.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, any other tips or anything that's maybe not as common out there that I can do to showcase my value?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what you can do is if you have, let's let's say it this way, you identified an in an industry.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's stay here um um with um with um the agile industry, for example, as a scrum product owner.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, what you can do is is you do you do a discovery of the company what kind of root problems are they solving better than anybody else?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is in the end the question that their clients want to answer.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Why should we invest six-figure software and a six-figure in your software and not in the competition?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And in the end, it's about a thing that the company can solve better than the competition.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if you identify that and connect it to your past, how you have experienced this um, let's say this root problem, this is all it's already a way where not saying that you're a solution consultant, you're acting like one.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: And if you like, I can give you an example.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like um um let's say let's say this way um if if you are um a strong product owner, for example, you have seen how um how um many companies struggle to scale agility, and there are software that can help companies to scale agility.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you can just say, hey, um, in my past, what I've noticed is that many companies, especially who want to scale agility, struggle because their teams are not connected.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: I've not it's I I've not only experienced that, I solved it, and that's the reason why I could help your clients um and your sales team um just to get better results.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it would be a simple way how you would show that you're thinking and acting like a solution consultant specific to a company.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's very good.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I I'd love your opinion on this.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I get asked as a recruiter, especially you know, folks in pre-sales a lot, is that you know, hey RV, I know you do recruiting for pre-sales.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Can you help me get into a role?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have you know pre-sales experience, but here's what I'm good at.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And typically what I suggest, and please, you know, you're the expert, so let me know if I'm uh messing up my advice here, but typically I say that love to hear that you know, pre-sales is obviously an awesome career to get into.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, always make it known to your specific current company that you're with that, hey, I want to get into pre-sales.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is there any certain path here that I can take to achieve that goal?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: If for some reason that is a no, um, then you go into ideally anybody in terms of vendors that you've worked with or that you know the product of, and you start reaching out to them and kind of make it known, like, hey, here's my, you know, similar things to everything we just discussed about here's my value differentiator, here's what I'd be good at.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: I know the product because you know we use it day to day, etc.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you still know the product and you're not going into it cold.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then from there, you know, utilize your network.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then last but not least, you know, call the plane.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: What is Your, I mean, am I giving the right advice here, or what am I missing that I shouldn't be saying better?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's it's a perfect advice.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: So the thing is, is you start to become proactive.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not waiting that something you start to pre-proactive, and you can go a level higher.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the level higher is that what we mentioned before is you look to your differentiator and you look what are the companies let's say besides official title that are selling um and solving uh pain that I already have experienced, and then you reach out to them and say, Hey, by the way, I'm the perfect client, um, I'm the perfect candidate because I've experienced the pain that you're trying to solve for your clients, and that's the reason why my ramp up time will be much lower for any of the competition.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, I'm already acting like a solution consultant, even that I don't have the title.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I would just put it one higher.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and I understand there needs to be some, it needs to be backed up with some real confidence, not just let's say wishful thinking.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um, that's the reason why the differentiator sheet, what we are doing, this is the purpose of it.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: That at the moment that the people seeing in black or white, oh, that is what I've done.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is the problems that I have experienced.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is valuable for this kind of uh of company.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is often where the truth shines through and where the honest confidence starts.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's not about telling something that's not true, it's always should be based on the past and uh on the truth.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: One last tip I'll give on that is it especially if you know maybe your current company does not offer that as a career path, or maybe they don't even have sales engineers in the current or solution consultant in the current um company that you're with, you can always go and find companies that do have that in their you know departments as a pre-sales or solution consultant.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: But let's just say, take an example, like you're a DevOps engineer now.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: You can still apply for like a DevOps role within those companies and kind of take a little bit of the longer route, right?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're not having luck with your network and applying, etc., you can take the long route by applying, for example, for a DevOps role, be in the role for you, or you know, really demonstrate good capabilities, then make it known to the company, here's where I'm looking to go, and take that path to get into sales engineering.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like that's something that would really work, or have you seen it work?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or what do you think of that kind of advice?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it always depends on the candidate's situation.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because the thing is, is if if somebody is a DevOps engineer say, Oh, I would like to have the sales aspect, and I I not only because many people in this area they're experts in really DevOps, and they say, Hey, I'm let's say sick of being told what to do of execution, I want to go to the next level, and the next level is often guiding clients, which is exactly what pre-sales does.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, what my suggestion always is yes, you can still go into the next role in the same role in a company that offers solution consultants.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, my advice is get your differentiator done and go directly in.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Don't waste time of repeating what you have just for the contact.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, once again, you can do it, it depends all the time on the situation.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: The thing is, is like my suggestion is always be more proactive, don't wait for external confirmation, make your value obvious, and then break directly in.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we we had some clients that did exactly the same thing.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's possible at the moment you know your differentiator, you're gonna see um that a lot of things become easier.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you still can you you still can apply for the DevOps role and try the other way around.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: First, I always would recommend go in directly, show the other side your value, and then you're gonna get picked.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very true.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, believe it or not, we're in our rapid fire section, and I have three questions for you that are fast questions on my end, but they don't have to be short answers.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: You can take your time answering them.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, number one, what is one tool that you can live without right now?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, crockbot.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard a lot about that.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: How is it actually good?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what are some use cases?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, the thing is, is I think is this like I mean, we all know ChatGPT.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: We have yeah, I've and I've tested so many AI.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so curious on this thing, and I'll I'll I love to get admin out of my life.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the reasons why I went into presource.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: It is it has less admin, and I want admin zero.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing is, is what I love about co op, but compared to all other solutions, so simple.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's the AI that is your personal assistant, and it just has a textbook like before, and it connects so easily to all the different sources, like to your to your email calendar, to your notion, to your Evernote.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you need to be comfortable with it, but then you just ask questions, it does the things for you, and it's something that I've seen.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's tremendously valuable, and um, yeah, it's something that I don't want to miss anymore.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I think you're the third person I've heard this in the last like three weeks.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm actually have to try it out.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing is, is I have I have a real example for you.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the thing is, is like last week because I have a daughter, and if you're if you start to have a family, I mean you know this as well.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: Your free time shrinks to a minimum.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: You basically don't have free time anymore.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the last thing that you want to do is on a Sunday afternoon, you want to take care of the energy bill that is way too high.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, what happened to me is I get this energy bill, and I said, Oh my goodness, do I have to go now down, check the stats, compare prices, the context.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I said, No, no, I'm not doing this.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: I made a picture, um, scanned scanned the energy bill, gave it a clockboard and say, Hey, is this correct?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes or no?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they say, No, it's not.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And can you send an email?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I looked into drugs and send it bam.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, and then I could go out with my family and have have fun during the sun and having ice cream instead of looking to an energy.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that is very true.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think having a, in a way, like an executive assistant, AI um is easier than never now.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's, you know, used to be safe for the ones that are have the capability to hire for it, but now it's I feel like anybody can have it just because of AI, and I guess rock bot at this point.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's pretty cool to hear.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, my next question.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, biggest growth lever for SaaS companies in 2026.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: I would say proof-driven value at speed.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me more about that.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so let's say the the in the past it was like oh, company uh customer knocks at the door, you say, Hey, we would like to see your software, you have a conversation slash discovery, 10 days later you did the demo.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: So now with AI and everything is changing, this is just way too much time.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: So we are shifting from talking about value of proving value through the whole cycle.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: That means it's just not enough to show the feature and now, oh client, do you see this?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is great.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, here is a customer success story.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: What we see is the companies that are really succeeding, they're guiding the client from success, they're giving them information that they weren't able to find up front.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: That means it's very specific, and this is where the tech expert, once again, is where we need those guys to come in, people who really know the client's situation and can show them the blind spots that they might not be able to see.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the second thing is this so that's the first thing is you provide information that no agent can, no clockboard can uncover.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is it's just the speed.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of waiting 10 days to give a demo, what you could do is after the first conversation, you come up with the first um with the first demo example, make a quick recording video, like a proof of concept, send it out on the first day.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Customer gives feedback, first iteration done, you adapt it, second, third.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: The 10 days later, you you already were proving the value before, and the demo just becomes a confirmation, and you can AI to achieve that.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: You use AI to build up the demo faster, to make a recording, and to provide the value with your insights before to the client.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what I currently see is um, I would say the biggest cross lever that SaaS companies have.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's actually a really, really good point of view because it's true.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, competition catches up so fast now with all the algorithms out there.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'm Googling a specific CRM, now I have you know 10 different ads or LinkedIn um, you know, uh connections sent to me of like all the other different ones.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I agree with you actually.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think like proving value and proving it fast is probably the biggest differentiator now because that's how we probably also build trust fast by proving it versus just talking about it.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I can see why that's a that's a very big differentiator right now for 2026.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my last question is what is one belief you have that most people would disagree with?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would say many people say, not everybody, many people say tech people can't sell.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: I say no, tech people sell better, they just haven't introduced to the right techniques.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is really good.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I I think all pre-sales would agree with you, just and anybody outside of pre-sales might not, but that's okay, that's what we need.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: We just need to prove our value.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, awesome.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then I wanted to switch a little bit the focus into more on like the hiring perspective and the leadership perspective.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm a leader and I'm looking to hire obviously a sales engineer or a solution consultant, how should I evaluate like a career change, whether it's when I'm reviewing a resume or during the inner process or interview process that replaces that question of like, well, talk to me about your C track record because I don't have that.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's a good question.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I have to say hiring managers often pretty know how they're gonna hire the best for their positions.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the thing is, is maybe the only thing what I would like to provide is maybe a different perspective because we talked about it is the two um variables to reduce the ramp up time is is um industry knowledge, domain knowledge, how you how you phrased it, and it's how um how you can apply that knowledge as a solution consultant.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: So when the solutions becoming so niche, and I know this from a high many, they were looking for an SAP, somebody who has SAP as an ERP software provider, very big.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they were looking for specific knowledge.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: It takes years to build up this knowledge, yeah.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And they looked for the for the perfect candidate, which was hey, this guy knows SAP inside out and has already solution consulting skills.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And what I would what what I would always try um point out is is like what takes longer to learn.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: If if you find the perfect candidate who has everything, yes, take it, of course.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's a no-brainer.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: But if you have somebody with SAP domain knowledge and they're lacking the solution consulting knowledge, think about if a ramp up program wouldn't be um for your internal talent program not beneficial, not more beneficial instead of waiting um month after month before finding the perfect candidate that doesn't exist.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is actually a really good point.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: On that note specifically, if I'm hiring for a pre-sales without you know them having the experience of being one, is there any common red flags that maybe hiring managers should watch out for?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say you can learn almost anything except agency.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: So the thing is it's like and and this is very specific, and um, and and I'm not saying that's not possible, but I what my experience is is like um you have people who are who are pretty comfortable to make their own decisions and even disagreeing with an authority like client, um, which is once again based on the experience, they are doing much better.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of the biggest challenges that I would see is is like, especially now that it gets um so technical and and complex, is it like at one moment clients are not just expecting an order ticker anymore, they need guidance.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And guidance means often also, oh, you have to say no with a smile, or yes, but or yes, and we have to go in the right way, not in the left way, because of this reason.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And people who don't have agency, they're often struggling with the uncertainty that this means because if you agree with the client, everything is fine.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you say, nah, the solution that you picked is not the right solution, you have to do this solution.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: This often takes a little bit of practice, and uh, people who rely that they're getting the decision approved tend to do a little bit harder in this area.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: On the other side, if you're somewhere saying, I don't know, I'm I I tested five solutions and I can tell you directly right now why you should go left, even if you put a gun on my head, these are the people who are gonna succeed.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then on that end, um what is a really good skill set, in your opinion, that they should hire when somebody doesn't have which I you kind of mentioned it already, but maybe we can go a little bit deeper on it.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if I have that domain expertise, is there maybe one or two things that in an interview process, maybe keywords or something that you hear, or how would you test it to make sure that they would have a good um or they would be good to transition into pre-sales?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: It comes down to the agency.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: How how how good are they willing to um to face the heat?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: So if if if they have to disagree with something, yeah.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Strongly believe, and I I I would I would try to challenge them when there was a situation where everybody says we have to go on the left way, but you knew it has to be the right way, and you were going this way.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it doesn't mean also that they always have to be perfect, they just have to be willing to not agree when they believe they should disagree.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Any way of testing that throughout the interview process that you found it's been good?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Can you say that again again, please?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so like how would you test that skill set or you know the the fact that somebody can go against a grain?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: How would you test that in an interview process?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: I would just ask about real life experience.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, because because then you can see first thing how good are the storytelling, can they come to the point?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: And the second thing is how authentic is it?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's very very hard to fake something.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: And this is how I would probe it.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Love that.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then in your opinion, what is what separates somebody that is a good or a good, well, not a C, because in this case we're talking about the ones that are not, versus somebody that could be an A player.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's it's how proactive they are.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's like it's it's they're they're they're they're not they're waiting, they they're not waiting, they just look, okay.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: This is the client situation.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we don't have all information.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go out and discover them.
• 38:02
  unknown: Yeah.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: In whatever way.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm using I'm setting up an AI agent, I'm making a video, sending it out to the client.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: So these are the paper people, they just move forward.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: They don't wait that somebody else makes a decision.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit similar to the example of the DevOps engineer.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: The person doesn't wait that somebody else puts puts the certificate on them, say, Oh, your sales approved.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: No, these are the people who just go out and shoot goals, even that they haven't played football before.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so somebody that it's maybe willing to fail fast, even if you know they don't have all the information, but they'll try their best and then fail as they're doing, you know, moving forward.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I missed it here.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Here's I'm gonna fix it for the next time.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love this.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's fail fast, um, not on purpose, of course.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but but everybody who's yeah, everybody who's high and successful, they all failed.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they all made decisions in their life, but these decisions help them to collect information, the feedback, and to move move high and uh and move faster.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think that's a good point.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: How good are you able to handle failure, resilience, and and move back?
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have one last question for you.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm a leader and I'm looking to hire somebody, and you know, I decide yes, as long as they have the domain expertise, you know, I can teach them the soft skills and actually being, you know, a sales engineer.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: What are some things that I should do as a leader to make sure to give them the best chance of succeeding as an IssE?
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, that's a good question.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would say first, there needs to be common understanding of success, how you want to be successful with the whole sales organization.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a little bit like if you if it's a little bit like a sports team.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if you would set up your whole team like a sports team, I think that would be a good thing because then it's clear what is success.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I the other thing is what I see is what just A players love, is they just love to have the best technology.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Curse at the at the beginning wasn't really sold because it was just faster coding.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was like this is what the A-players want to use to get the best out.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I would always try to give them the best tools so that they can focus on their craft in the most way, and this automatically attracts the best people.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you on top have a vision that is, it doesn't have to be to go to Mars, but uh a vision that you can tell in in simple words why it's worth to work for this company.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I've seen for A-players, this is highly attractive.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is what they really love if they have this look of feeling together to achieve something that they believe in to it.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you see a little bit, I'm already getting a little bit exciting, and uh I see.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but this is but this is what this is what I love and what I've seen in the market with the A players, or let's say the people who are really ambitious like, and so this is what I what I could recommend.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I think honestly, this is a great note to end our podcast on.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Toby, where can people find you?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: Where can they connect with you?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the easiest way is just go on LinkedIn, yeah, LinkedIn, uh I think slash Tobias Rod, then you're gonna find me.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: I also have a school community, school.com slash presales, knock on the door.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: So this this community community is just starting for everybody who wants to break into pre-sales.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Send me a DM.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if if if if you have a question, I'm happy to answer all your questions.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, looking forward to seeing more people from tech from tech background um trying to break into this amazing role solution consulting.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: And let's I'll link the school link on our show notes so people can have it easier to find, but it's skol.com slash presales.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is the cool name.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: School.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, for the cool kids.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Not not how our parents would spell it is like how the cool kids would spell it.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's the uh maybe Gen Z way, I don't know.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: But that's cool.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you jumping on.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for sharing all the value.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, obviously, all your all your knowledge and being able to do this with me.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, everybody go connect with Tobias Rot on LinkedIn.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the school community will be in the show notes, and I'll see you all in the next one.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, Albi.