Latest / Recovering Out Loud / Beyond Abstinence: The Power of Moderation, Hypnotherapy & Journaling in Recovery – with Sylvia Subirana

Transcript

Beyond Abstinence: The Power of Moderation, Hypnotherapy & Journaling in Recovery – with Sylvia Subirana · Recovering Out Loud

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Hello everyone, welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud,
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the podcast where we get real about addiction and recovery.
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Today's guest is Sylvia Subirana, she's a clinical
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psychologist and head of content development at Unconscious
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Moderation, an app that helps people take control of their
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drinking and unlock more meaning, happiness, fulfilment
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in their lives. UM uses practical tools like
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hypnotherapy, journaling, and supportive community building
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exercises to guide users through lasting change.
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Today we explore why moderation works for some and not for
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others. How hypnotherapy is helping
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rewire addictive behaviors, the science and stigma behind new
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recovery tools. The surprising power of
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journaling and self discovery. Facing fear, breaking old
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patterns, and learning to live intentionally.
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Listen, learn and discover a new approach to changing your
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relationship with alcohol. Hello, Sylvia, thank you.
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Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.
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We had a really good conversation before this and I'm
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very interested in what you do and what your team does with
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regards to, you know, not necessary.
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When I started this podcast, alcohol moderation was not an
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option for me because I tried. I've tried many times and I know
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a lot of people that have tried and it just doesn't work for me.
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But I'm, I'm starting to realize that as I get on this journey
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more and talk to more people that for one, the world doesn't
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revolve around me and not everybody feels and thinks the
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same way I do. But there's different paths up
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to recovery Mountain, right? And one of the paths is through
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moderation and through journaling and hypnotherapy,
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which I'm excited to get into today with you.
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But why don't you tell us a little bit about your story,
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Sylvia, and how you came into this field and what you guys do?
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So I'm a clinical psychologist. I love learning about mental
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health and how different behaviours affect each person.
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And it's, it's a very interesting world for me, like a
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very interesting field. I'm very passionate about it,
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and I started working a little bit helping people understand
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how to have a better relationship with alcohol about
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a year and a half ago. And it was when I realized that
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I had a lot of knowledge because I haven't drunk in around six
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years. I don't have a set date because
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it was very organic for me. It was six years, six years, six
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years and a half ago and I learned a lot during this time
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that I haven't drunk. So I decided to combine my
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knowledge in psychology, mental health and all that with my
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knowledge in the field of living life without drinking.
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I'm, I never had an addiction. I never had a dependency on
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alcohol. But it's true that I started
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drinking because everybody else around me started drinking and I
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thought that it was just what I had to do, what everybody does,
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right. So I realised that I was forcing
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something that was not working for me because my body was just
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reacting very, very poorly to it.
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I had, I got infection dealing to that and like after years of
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using alcohol, my body was telling me signs of this is not
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working for you, but I just kept ignoring it because everybody
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else was drinking, right. So what was I supposed to do?
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I, I never questioned it. And when I finally questioned it
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and I was like, OK, this is not for me.
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This is not how I'm supposed to live life.
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I realised that I was just like completely avoiding what my body
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was telling me and what my mind was telling me.
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And it's very, very powerful to learn what your body is telling
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you and to live alive more aligned with what you actually
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want to do. Yeah, I I couldn't agree more.
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And you know, the first step in that is, is noticing what your
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body is telling you, right? That's that took me a long time
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to fathom just because I was so preoccupied with other things.
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Right. You know, we're having an
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interesting conversation off air about you live in, in Barcelona
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or you're near Barcelona in Spain.
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And I thought it was really funny because I didn't realize
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this until I came into recovery, that I used to think that
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everybody partied, everybody did drugs.
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It was everywhere. It's just what people did.
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Like you said, right? I, I, I'm, I'm going to do it
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just because other people are doing it.
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I want to fit in. You were telling me how you
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don't see any drugs and you don't, you know, you don't see
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that lifestyle because you're not in it.
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And I just, I always think that's interesting because I
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have the same experience now living in downtown Toronto.
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You know, there's a lot of drugs and, and a lot of places and
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parties that I just, I'm not exposed to anymore.
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Like what a, what a miracle. You know, you stop drinking and
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you find this, stop drinking and stop using drugs and you find
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this community of people that are just living a different
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lifestyle. And I can tell you, I haven't
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seen drugs in quite a while now, right?
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I always find that interesting. So definitely.
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So you're the, you know, you work with the Unconscious
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Moderation app, which is available on the iPhone and Play
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Store. Why don't you tell us a little
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bit about what inspired the creation of the Unconscious
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Moderation app? And yeah, cool.
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It was the IT was created because, well, alcohol is
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everywhere. We were talking about drugs and
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everything and drugs because they're not legal, at least in
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many, many countries in the world.
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Drugs are not legal, but you don't really see them as easily
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as you see alcohol. But alcohol is everywhere is
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even in workplaces, like people drink to seal deal some
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sometimes, you know? So it's just amazing to think
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that something that is killing us is so, so normalized and
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everybody is just like even judging you when you're not
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drinking, right? So it was a group of a bit of
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like there's psychologists, there's different people that
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were starting to well, realize that.
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And little by little more people added on that on that group
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where we realized, OK, we need to target this, but there's
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many, many programs out there. But still, this is a big issue
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that people don't really know how to address, right?
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Because yes, less people are drinking right now.
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And if you look at younger generations, they are not
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jumping in like for example, as I said before, you just do it
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because everybody else does. Now there's more and more people
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that actually question it and decide not to drink.
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But of course that's happening now with younger generations.
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I'm in my late 20s and I've had a different, a very different
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upbringing, right? So when we, when we wanted to
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target like, OK, how can we help people do it?
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We had a look at different programs and then we realized
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that hymnotherapy had been used for many, many different
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addictions, many different conditions.
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Like it doesn't need to be an addiction.
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It could be like IBS, for example, for gut issues and to
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treat anxiety in, in other things in general.
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And it had been proven very, very effective in all these
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different aspects, right? So we were like, OK, we cannot
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find a programme that targets or that helps people rewire their
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relationship with alcohol with using hemotherapy, right.
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So we implemented it and then we combined the conscious work
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because hemotherapy, it touches the unconscious mind, but then
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we wanted to also work with the conscious mind.
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So that's why we also added journaling and other tools to
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complement it. And it's been proven that well,
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very effective. And obviously the app has was
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released only like 6 months ago. So we haven't seen long term
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results yet. But our users have expressed it,
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they're very, very happy with it.
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And they they actually notice the the changes and they notice
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that it works. That's amazing.
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Yeah. And, you know, I appreciate that
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because not everybody that I've come into contact to, with in
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addiction and alcoholism is willing to go to, to meetings or
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to try, they have a bad experience with, with, you know,
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social groups or, or rehab centers.
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There's, there's a bit of a stigma around it for some
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people. And so I love apps.
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I've I've always loved apps. I think there's a lot of very
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useful apps out there. And this is, you know, it's just
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a great way for people to kind of get involved without that big
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step into an uncomfortable position.
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What, what makes unconscious minds approach different from
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other moderation? I mean, you mentioned the
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hypnotherapy, but I, I started using the app and it was very
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user friendly. You know, it asked a bunch of
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questions and got some background, but what kind of
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makes it different that you, that you think?
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What makes it stand out? I think well, we haven't found
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any other programs that use human therapy.
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And also the, the journaling that we use is very, it's very
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targeted to complement the, the journey, right.
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Whereas we've seen other programs that they do use
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journaling, but it's more generic when we start it.
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We, we, we had generic questions in journaling.
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But now little by little, we're learning, we're researching more
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and then we're making it more specific to help people actually
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see better results, right? So I believe that with this
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unconscious work with hemotherapy that makes our
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program, different people see results a bit faster.
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Again, there are many, many different things out there, many
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tools that are effective and have been proven effective.
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But I think that giving even more options to people is very
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helpful because what might work for me might not work for you.
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So might, maybe hemotherapy works for me, but might not work
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for you, right. So given the possibilities to
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people for people to try in different things, I think it's
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very, very powerful and very helpful for people to to try out
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new things. And this is definitely a new
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thing and hymnotherapy in treating alcohol consumption.
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And we also don't Geminis or blame people that decide to
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moderate instead of quitting completely because we've seen
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that many programs out there play with that blame and make
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you feel bad if you have a relapse or if you have one drink
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one day. And we understand that this is
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not a linear, linear process. It's not as easy as just like
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deciding something and changing it and that's it.
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You are going to have falls, you're going to have obstacles
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in your way and that is completely fine.
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It's part of the process. And actually, a lot of people
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say that it's been proven that when you are implementing a new
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habit or you're quitting A substance, you have withdrawal
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symptoms. And then you work through these
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and then they get better. And then at one point they get
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worse and you're like, Oh my God, they are so, so strong.
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But it's like the last push of those withdrawal symptoms.
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And then when you cross that path that that wall or that
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obstacle, then you're going to feel like, OK, those withdrawal
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symptoms have just calmed down and they lose their power a lot.
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So hypnotherapy just helps people go through this journey
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with a bit more of a calm state because obviously these
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withdrawal symptoms can trigger a lot of anxiety as well and a
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lot of like nervousness. So hypnotherapy helps you be a
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bit more calmed down. And those withdrawal symptoms
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also have less power, so they are not as well as strong and as
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well you when you feel them, you need to actually act on them
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because they're painful even. But hemorotherapy helps you just
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reduce the the power of the symptoms so they're actually
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more manageable. Yeah, I I can agree with that
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for sure. You know, as you were talking, I
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was thinking about the the mental state always precedes the
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first relapse for me, right? And I love what you said about
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sometimes you just need to like hold on to the steering wheel
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and get through that last push, right?
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I do understand too that, you know, for those listening, there
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is a medical component for a lot of people that are drinking a
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lot and that's important too. And your app actually does go
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through that, right? Like it does have those
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disclaimers. And, you know, it's not always
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safe for people to detox on certain substances, especially
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alcohol, without medical assistance and supervision.
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So I, I want to state that that that's important as well.
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You know, I want to talk about this, this idea of fear because
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I think fear is the big motivator behind everything in
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my life. Every time I relapsed, there was
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some kind of fear down. And you know, this latest one
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that I went through, there was this fear of I, I called it
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boredom at the time because I didn't understand that that
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boredom is actually fear hiding itself.
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And most emotions are, are fear, right?
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You know, I got to a point where I was kind of sitting in my car
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and life was just kind of ordinarily going along.
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You know, there was nothing exciting, nothing too sad.
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And I, I came to this realization that I crave chaos
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to kind of distract myself from this fear and this hating myself
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and this uncomfortability with where I'm at.
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And I should be here. I should be doing this right.
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And so I kind of, I came to the conclusion that it, it was just
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this fear of, Oh my God, is this my life now?
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You know, am I going to just go on the rest of my life without
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any fun, any excitement? And I found that, no, that's not
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true. If I had just pushed through
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that, that, that last little bit, that last, you know,
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obstacle, as you say, and reached out for help and, and
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did something about it instead of did things my way, I think I
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would have been OK. But to your point, I needed to
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go through that again to hit another emotional and spiritual
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bottom, right? Like I needed to hit another
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bottom where I was like, OK, this recovery thing has to be my
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life today. It has to be it.
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It's not a hobby for me. And this is my story.
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I can't moderate. I can't do any of these things.
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I need to remain completely abstinent and I need to stay
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connected to people and to my my higher power, my God.
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Right? So this idea of fear, like what?
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Why do you think fear of change is so powerful and even though
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we know deep down that it can help us?
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So it's very powerful because we have internal patterns that keep
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us quote, UN quote, safe, which maybe they're not keeping us
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safe, but our body, our mind thinks that we are being
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protected, right? Because when we were growing up,
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those type of behaviours actually kept us safe because of
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the situation that we were in, right?
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So we learn these patterns that might not be safe for an adult
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person and they bring you to do different things and for
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example, consuming alcohol, drugs or scrolling on TikTok or
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watching Netflix or many, many different things, right?
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Because sitting down with our emotions, understanding where
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everything comes from can be very, very painful and scary as
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well. Because then sometimes it's
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easier to say, OK, I don't know anything, then I'm not
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addressing anything, right? But actually that's what gets
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you stuck in the same place without moving.
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And I think that, as you said, that fear paralyzes you.
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I think it paralyzes everyone. We have this fear of missing out
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in general, of not doing what we're expected to do, of not
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achieving what we are expected to achieve, of not have a good,
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not having a good life, not doing this, not doing that.
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And the pressure is just so, so, so strong that I think that
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pressure, that social pressure that we that we have from
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everyone around us, but also from social media.
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There's a lot coming from there that we constantly see people
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having their best lives. And then you compare your life
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and you, then you're like, my life is very blunt.
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It's very boring, right? Because look at these people
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having the best lives ever. So I think there's so many
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things that actually interfere in that pressure.
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And then that pressure creates that fear of am I living my life
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correctly? So when that fear is very, very
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strong, it just paralyzes you and you are not able to do
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anything about it because it's so strong that you don't know
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where to start. And there's also that.
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So there's that. And then there's the what I was
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talking about before the the patterns and all that.
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We feel like that what we've been doing till now is, is our
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safe space or is it's our normality, right?
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It's something that we can control.
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And when we start creating shifts or having new habits or
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stop or reducing or completely stopping to have some, some
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behaviors or some drugs or alcohol or like other
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substances, we don't know what's coming on the other side.
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We don't understand, like our mind cannot understand that it
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can be actually better. We are stuck in this, OK, I
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don't know what's going on or what's going to happen in, I
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don't know, six months, a year, five years from now.
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But I know what's happening right now and I know that the
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situation right now, I can control it.
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But again, the situation right now can be absolutely destroying
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you. But you have that feeling of
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control. And again, we are always looking
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for things that we can control. We hate as humans uncertainty
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and things that we cannot control and they are out of our
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decision. And again, we like in our lives,
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there's so little that we can actually control.
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We think that we have more tools than we actually have.
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Life just goes on, right? Then you have to adapt to it and
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understand that life changes constantly.
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We, we cannot stay in the same state only because of fear,
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because eventually what you're not changing, you're choosing,
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you're actually choosing not to change.
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So actually you're actually like little by little, your life will
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change and then you will actually adapt those behaviors
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to those changes, right. So getting stuck into that, I
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don't want to change. I just want my life to be
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exactly how it is. It's actually not going to
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happen because it cannot happen. Life is changing constantly.
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Yeah, yeah, it's so true. I'm happy you mentioned the the
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illusion of control because you know, as it says, as I've heard
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so many times before. The, the, the great illusion
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that I can drink like other people, you know, I'll try that
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a million times till Sunday until I can figure it out.
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Because you're right. It's like there's so much in the
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world I can't control. What do you mean I can't control
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my drinking? And the way I feel like there's
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already all this other stuff and then I come home and I have to
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feel this way. Like that's so uncomfortable to
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me, right? I, I think that's, that's
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especially true. And I've, I've proven that in my
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life so many times, right? I'm, I'm really interested in
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this hypnotherapy process. Can you kind of explain a little
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bit more what, what it is and like what the app kind of does?
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What does it look like? So in the app, we do 15 minutes
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a day of hymnotherapy. It's an audio that you just put
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some headphones on and you listen to and then so it's 30
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minutes a day and 15 minutes of hymnotherapy and then 15 minutes
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of conscious work. That hymnotherapy, it's very
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similar to a relaxation or meditation.
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And a lot of people have actually listened to those
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before because they're very, very, very famous and very
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common for people to actually listen to.
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So it's not that weird or that different from all the things
21:20
that people have tried. And I actually get this asked a
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lot like is it powerful? Is it, is it like in a bad way?
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Is it dangerous? Is are there any side effects to
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hymnotherapy? Because we've seen hypnosis in
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movies and in theaters. And obviously that was just for
21:39
the show, right? It's not how it works in in
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therapy or in like a clinical like area, right field.
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So basically what that audio is is you put those headphones in
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and then you get into a deep state of relaxation where all
21:58
your worries and all that conscious noise just dials down
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its intensity. But you are still conscious.
22:05
You're still aware of everything that's happening, which is
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something that a lot of people feel like, is it going to knock
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me out and then I'm not going to be able to remember what
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happened? No, you are conscious all the
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time and you understand and listen to everything.
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But basically the difference between hymnotherapy and
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meditation of relaxation is that hymnotherapy opens your mind to
22:29
suggestions, right? So, for example, a lot of people
22:34
have a drink when they're stressed.
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It's a very, very common thing to say, OK, I've had a very
22:41
stressful day at work and my mind just automatically thinks
22:44
of having a glass of wine or two or a whole bottle.
22:47
It really depends on the person. So that connection between
22:52
stress and alcohol is pretty much automatic.
22:56
And your mind or all of our minds have so many things to do
23:00
in our bodies, like we, they need to keep us alive, right?
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And there's so many things that we do that our body does that we
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don't think about, like breathing, like every internal
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organ has its own thing to do and we don't realize, we don't
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think, we don't think about it, right?
23:17
So the brains, our brains want to optimize energy so they can
23:24
actually save part of that energy to send to those organs,
23:28
right? So when we do something
23:31
repeatedly, like for example, I'm stressed, then I drink a
23:34
glass of wine, it's automatic. Like the the brain creates a
23:39
path between neurons, between brain cells that is very
23:42
reinforced because the brain doesn't understand the
23:45
difference between what's good for you, what's bad for you.
23:48
It only understands the difference between something
23:50
that you do very frequently and something that you don't do
23:52
frequently. So when it reinforces that path
23:56
between neurons, that is a connection that becomes
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automatic. So every time that you're going
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to be stressed, you're going to be thinking of alcohol straight
24:04
away because that is a path that is very, very reinforced, right?
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So what immunotherapy does is open the mind to different paths
24:12
between neurons. So little by little, that path
24:15
that was created that I'm stressed, then I'm going to have
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a glass of wine loses its power. And then all the paths, all the
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alternative paths can have more and more power little by little,
24:27
right? So in the end, when you're
24:29
stressed, you're going to see many options.
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Instead of just seeing one like got that glass of wine, you're
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going to see options like calling a friend or going for a
24:40
walk or baking a cake or doing anything you want and anything
24:45
that you enjoy doing because your mind broadens and sees more
24:50
than actually alcohol as the only solution.
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So that's why, and that's why it's very, it's very helpful
24:56
because people see this shift quite fast.
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Obviously you're not going to see it on the first day, but
25:04
after 10 days, people start seeing that shift in that those,
25:08
well, those options, right? And it's easier for them to
25:12
actually choose something else rather than alcohol.
25:17
Yeah, wow, I love that. It's it's kind of like this knee
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jerk reaction that I'm stressed. I'm going to drink it.
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It's so true. You don't even think about it.
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And and hence the unconscious part of of the brain.
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And so it's just slowly rewiring these pathways.
25:33
I I think that that you explained that very well.
25:35
Thank you. This, this kind of area of, of
25:42
therapy is not, it's not studied entirely yet, right?
25:45
So we don't really know. There's not a lot of science
25:47
behind it. There's not a lot of data in
25:49
regards to hypnotherapy and alcohol.
25:51
But you were mentioning to me that there there is some science
25:54
out there right now. So there's, it's true that
25:59
there's not a lot of studies that have actually linked
26:02
hypnotherapy with treating alcohol like alcoholism or
26:07
helping people reduce the alcohol intake.
26:09
But chemotherapy has been linked to many addiction recovery like
26:17
pathways or for treating other, other symptoms like for example
26:22
anxiety, as I was saying before, like anxiety IBS, it was very,
26:26
very common to treat like tobacco addiction some years
26:31
ago. So even though there's not many
26:35
data or the, there's some data that is coming out now, like
26:39
some studies that are coming out now between like showing the
26:42
link between hymnotherapy and alcoholism, the the studies that
26:49
show the, the success in hymnotherapy are more like
26:54
considering addictions in general.
26:56
But in the end, of course, each drug or each substance that you
27:01
take or each behaviour that you do is different, but your brain
27:05
sort of reacts in a very similar way.
27:07
So what works for one will work for the other.
27:10
Generally, like something like hypnotherapy will work for both
27:14
because your brain sort of gets attached to that.
27:17
And maybe I like, for example, me as a person that drinks
27:22
frequently when I'm stressed, as I said before the example that
27:26
I'm saying that I was saying before, right when I'm stressed,
27:28
I drink. But then maybe you when you're
27:30
stressed, you gamble or when you're stressed you smoke.
27:33
So those connections that I was talking about before are
27:39
different in each person. They have a different behaviour,
27:42
a different consequence, but they all come from a very
27:45
similar place. So that's why when when you
27:49
search about like immunotherapy and how can it help, it can help
27:54
different addictions. There's so many studies in many,
27:58
many different addictions and there's not many in alcoholism,
28:00
but I found a study done in Norway that showed that people
28:05
that their hypnotherapy sessions one like when treating
28:10
alcoholism one year after and 80% of them had been completely
28:15
abstinent for that whole year. So 80% is a very, very large
28:20
number of people, right? So I think it's, it's very
28:24
effective and it can be very, very helpful.
28:27
And then in, in different addictions in general or other
28:31
behaviours, it's been proven, obviously it's very, very broad,
28:35
but between 50% and 80% of of like abstinence or change in
28:42
behavior or all that as well. So I think it's a very, very
28:46
powerful tool that it's worth considering.
28:49
Yeah, that's, that's a great number.
28:51
I mean, you know, having been to treatment, they always tell us
28:54
that there's this kind of standing statistic of, you know,
28:58
one in 10 people will will die from the, or will make it,
29:01
sorry, one in 10 people will, will make it from this, from
29:05
this disease. There's like a 10% chance,
29:07
right? So I mean, that's, that's really
29:10
promising. I journaling is a big part of my
29:13
recovery. And I never really wanted to do
29:16
it. It wasn't one of those things
29:17
where I was like, you know, I'm going to journal every day.
29:19
Most things that I practice in my life today to recover are
29:24
something that came from somebody before me, right?
29:27
Something that was recommended to me either by a therapist or
29:31
by a fellow alcoholic and addict.
29:34
And so for me, what I found is, you know, I had a hard time
29:38
starting like you, you mentioned before, there's this like,
29:41
there's this hurdle. It's like, and I could say the
29:44
same thing about going to the gym, right?
29:45
Or doing anything healthy. I just sometimes I just need to
29:47
get there because there's this fear of leaving my comfortable
29:51
home and going into this uncomfortable state, right?
29:55
And I find that that happened with journaling too.
29:57
It's like, well, where do I start?
29:59
I don't know what to do what, what kind of, you know, what's
30:01
the point? So where do you kind of tell
30:03
people to start? Where does the app prompt you?
30:05
How does it prompt you? So the, the way that we work
30:09
with journaling in the app is to compliment that hymnotherapy
30:13
part that I was talking about. And before the, the hymnotherapy
30:17
that we offered was general, which is still helpful, but it
30:21
was more general like, so people could understand themselves.
30:24
Like for example, what do you do when you're angry or how do you
30:28
deal with this type of situation?
30:30
Or what are three things that you're grateful for today,
30:35
right? And different things like that,
30:37
which again, many, many programs that they do these questions or
30:40
ask these questions to to their users.
30:44
And it works like they're very effective, but we wanted to make
30:47
it more more targeted to actually helping the people
30:52
understand themselves better and learning about their patterns.
30:55
Because when you know about your pattern, you're like 50% there.
31:00
Like you have gained so much. Once you know what's going on,
31:05
your, your halfway of the path is done.
31:07
Like what When you know it and accept it, because knowing and
31:11
accepting it can not come together sometimes because some
31:15
people know it, but then they don't, they don't accept it as
31:18
part of their reality. Right.
31:21
So what what we do with, with our journaling is we, we take
31:27
people into like a path of imagination, like different
31:30
adventures that we call it. And then they, we put them into
31:34
a different situation, like situations obviously all
31:38
imaginary that they have to think of how they would react,
31:42
what would they do and different things.
31:46
And all these situations later on have or they make sense
31:53
because in the end they will learn about their patterns.
31:56
They will learn about how they make decisions, why they choose
31:59
certain things. Because each week it's sort of
32:02
it's like a different adventure. And at the end of the week you
32:05
understand a bit a little bit more why you chose where you
32:08
chose. And there's an explanation of
32:10
everything. So again, there's no right or
32:13
wrong because everyone chooses their own thing, right?
32:16
And, and everything is, is, well, everything is good.
32:19
You don't need to be thinking, OK, I should choose this, but my
32:24
mind is telling me to choose the other thing, right?
32:26
No, everything is fine, everything is good.
32:29
You just choose whatever your mind tells you to do, right.
32:33
And again, when you learn about these patterns and how you how
32:36
you process and all that emotion and, and what triggers different
32:40
things, then you can actually start doing those changes.
32:44
Because when once you know it, knowledge is power.
32:47
Once you know it, then you can actually address it.
32:50
You cannot address what you don't know.
32:52
I, I couldn't agree more. And you know, I one thing that I
32:57
learned from journaling and this, this took some time,
32:59
right? It didn't happen right away, but
33:01
I was in treatment this last time and I just journaled every
33:04
day because they told me to. And just whatever was on my
33:06
mind, I came to this, this conclusion and it was pretty
33:09
revolution like revelatory for me.
33:11
It was a pretty profound moment. And this has happened a few
33:14
times where I've come, I came to this realization that, you know,
33:18
what I told you about the chaos thing, I came to that
33:20
realization in journaling, right, that I crave this kind of
33:23
chaotic state in my life with drugs and alcohol to escape
33:27
feeling me. And, and, you know, having to
33:30
look at myself in the mirror and, and atone for all the kind
33:33
of bad things that I did, right, get through this guilt and shame
33:36
was the underlying feeling. You know, I felt bad about all
33:39
the people I hurt, felt bad about hurting myself.
33:41
I felt bad about relapsing after eight years clean and sober.
33:45
And so journaling, I was able to forgive myself for that, but I
33:49
also was able to realize why I choose to pick up drugs and
33:52
alcohol. And it was because I don't like
33:55
this kind of mundane state. I, I, I need this sort of up and
33:59
down crazy life to feel OK in my own skin.
34:03
And then the other thing too that I was going to mention that
34:05
I noticed too was so in my active addiction, I like to hang
34:09
out with. And I've heard that this, this
34:11
is pretty universal with people like me.
34:15
We kind of choose these. I hate using this, this term,
34:20
But you know, in one of the literatures that I read it, it
34:22
calls it lower companions, right?
34:24
These these sort of people that are using more than I am.
34:29
They're, they're partying harder than I am.
34:31
They're using harder drugs than I am.
34:34
They're drinking more than I am. And I, I always like to hang out
34:38
with these people, I've realized because I feel better about
34:41
myself, right? And I'm, well, I'm at least I'm
34:44
not doing heroin, or at least I'm not drinking, you know, 10
34:47
bottles a day. I'm not that bad.
34:50
You know, it's OK, buddy. Like you're, you're not that
34:52
bad. You can get.
34:52
And it was just this justification to kind of keep
34:55
going and live the life that I was living.
34:57
Or they're stealing way more than I am.
34:59
So at least I'm not stealing from the government, right?
35:01
And I came to those conclusions all through journaling.
35:04
And it was a pretty, you know, euphoric Eureka moment for me.
35:08
And that's why I continued to do it today.
35:10
And, and again, I don't have these moments every day where
35:12
I'm like, Oh my God, it all makes sense now.
35:14
Like that's not the case, right? But through time and effort, I
35:17
have come to these realizations. And it's a beautiful thing
35:20
because now, like you said, I, I've, I'm 50% of the way there.
35:24
I've realized it. Well, what are you going to do
35:25
about it, right? Just because you realize
35:27
something doesn't mean it's going to change.
35:28
I have to do something about it. So when I go to the state of
35:31
boredom or I'm not enough, life's not enough.
35:34
I should be making more money. I should be more successful.
35:37
I should be helping more people. I should be more sober even I
35:41
should have more clean time, right?
35:43
I, I, I have these real, these thoughts that now I can kind of
35:46
say to myself, oh, I'm doing that thing again.
35:49
And I just kind of laugh about it.
35:50
I'm like, I'm doing that. My brain is doing that thing
35:52
again where it wants to be comfortable and it doesn't want
35:54
to embrace pain, right? So I can just embrace the pain
35:58
now and be like, oh, yeah, it's going to be OK, you're going to
36:01
get through this. And then I always say is like,
36:03
just get through the day, just get through the hour.
36:05
And like you said, it's just getting through those hurdles
36:08
because that delayed gratification over the instant
36:11
gratification is so much better in my experience, right?
36:14
That just get through today because tomorrow will be
36:16
different and it's always true. Tomorrow will be different.
36:19
Just get to bed sober, clean, you know, and, and tomorrow will
36:22
be different. Yeah.
36:24
And what I always like to say is that we think that we see the
36:27
world objectively, like life is as it is, right?
36:32
And that is completely wrong. We don't see the world as it is.
36:35
We see the world as we are and as we see.
36:37
So if you surround yourself by people that do more drugs than
36:41
you or drink more than you, then you have that sense of, OK, I'm
36:47
not as bad as them, so I am OK, right.
36:49
But then you're comparing yourself to something that you
36:52
see very, very frequently. So your mind understands that
36:55
that is your normality quote. UN quote, right, Your baseline,
36:59
yeah. Exactly.
37:00
But if you lived a different life and then you don't see
37:04
those people, then you would be like, your comparison would be
37:07
like, you are the one that is having the most drugs compared
37:10
to these, these group of people, right?
37:13
Like these people. So it is all about perspective
37:16
and it's all about what you see and what you are exposed to.
37:20
So I think that when people understand that and the
37:24
subjectivity of the way that we live the world in our lives,
37:28
it's, I think it, it's something clicks.
37:30
At least it, it clicked for me because then I was like, OK,
37:33
there's no right or wrong. Like it's not that static right?
37:39
Like this is right. This is wrong.
37:41
Exactly. It's not.
37:41
There's so, so many colours in between and, and maybe what
37:46
might be right for me might not be right for another person.
37:48
So I have to choose what's right for me and to know that I have
37:52
to know myself and I have to self reflect and take my time to
37:56
sit down and understand where my emotions are coming from and
38:00
what I do to, to tackle them and to understand them.
38:05
Because to numb the emotions. And it doesn't need to be with
38:10
like alcohol or drugs or other substances or like behaviors
38:14
like gambling and stuff like that.
38:16
A lot of people do it with, for example, chocolate, which is
38:19
obviously very accessible in any supermarket or with, as I was
38:23
saying before scrolling on social media.
38:25
And then we see people that are using their phones for 10 hours
38:27
a day and that is a lot, right? So everyone chooses their
38:33
behaviour differently or everyone has their escape, a
38:36
different escape, right? And understanding why you're
38:40
doing that and what triggers that moment of or that need of
38:43
escaping is, as you said before, is is it's a, it's a Eureka
38:48
moment because then you can actually target that and work on
38:53
that. I love that you.
38:55
Are who you surround yourself with, right?
38:58
And I try to live by that today. You know, my friend group in my
39:02
circle today are it doesn't matter what they have a material
39:06
wise. I look for people that are
39:09
working on themselves everyday, you know, people that are
39:12
constantly doing this inner work.
39:15
That's those are the people I want to be around because that's
39:18
what I need to do instead of looking externally.
39:20
I need a car, I need a boat, I need a new, you know, job.
39:25
I, I have to look internally and, and find the kind of joy
39:28
and peace that way. I love that it's so true.
39:33
Relapse is unfortunately a part of recovery.
39:37
It's been in a part of my life, you know, slips relapse.
39:40
I wanna, you know, say I, I learned the difference between a
39:43
slip and a relapse. A slip is kind of when you're,
39:46
you have like that one drink or that one pill or that one line
39:49
and you catch it right away and you jump back into recovery,
39:52
right? The relapse is when you kind of
39:54
fully indulge and I, I never, I don't, I, I don't think I ever
39:59
really had many slips. Mine were full blown relapses
40:02
because I never caught them and corrected them and I, and I was
40:05
too far gone right. This last time it took me 4
40:07
months to try and get back in and those were four months of
40:10
hell. You know, it's a progressive
40:12
disease. It always gets worse for me.
40:14
I always pick up where I left off and then it just gets way
40:17
worse. I'm doing new drugs, I'm hanging
40:18
out with, you know, people I shouldn't be hanging out with.
40:20
I'm going to nightclubs and bars that I have no business being
40:23
being at. How does the app kind of help
40:26
users keep going if they have a slip?
40:29
So as I was saying before. We never blame anybody.
40:33
We never demonize alcohol or any other substance.
40:36
We always understand that it's part of the process and we
40:39
encourage people to keep going. It's OK if you have a slip, it's
40:43
OK if you have a drink or like this app is targeted in alcohol,
40:48
but it's OK if you have a a slip with any other substance or
40:52
behavior. It's OK if you drink because
40:56
it's part of the process. You're going to have your ups
40:58
and downs and understanding them and giving space to them is also
41:02
part of, of your growth and the, the journey.
41:05
Because it cannot be as as easy as just like quitting or
41:10
deciding to reduce alcohol and never feeling that craving or
41:15
that, that need to have slip or worse, right at going deeper
41:21
into it. So, so the way that we do it is
41:24
again, reinforcing that they're doing a great job.
41:27
Because if the, the program is, is 90 days long, but the first
41:31
30 days is completely like no alcohol at all.
41:35
But if you have alcohol during those 30 days, we say that's
41:40
completely fine. Keep going because by the by day
41:42
30 you will have drunk way less than what you drank the month
41:47
before. Because if you had 1234 drinks
41:51
in this month compared to the month before where maybe you had
41:56
20 or 15 or even like 10, that is progress.
42:01
That is something that is changing in your mind.
42:04
You are actually shifting and if you keep working on it, you are
42:10
going to and actually get somewhere, right?
42:12
If you give up when you have one drink, then you're not doing any
42:16
progress, right? So that's why we, we're very
42:19
open to people having these moments.
42:22
Of course, the the less you drink, the better, right?
42:26
But we're never going to blame anybody or make anybody feel
42:30
like they're failed when when they had one drink when maybe
42:35
they could not, like they could not have like give the space to
42:40
that urge or that crazy that they were having, right?
42:44
Because sometimes, as I said before, they're very powerful
42:48
and again during, so the, the, the programme is 90 days and
42:52
some people choose to, to not drink during all those 90 days.
42:56
So the programme sort of looks the same all those three months.
42:58
But then on day 30, they can choose if they want to moderate
43:02
as well. So we give tools to people so
43:05
they can understand again, what triggers the urge to drink when
43:11
like they're emotional straight when they drink.
43:13
And they, we also keep like a, like a drink tracker so they can
43:18
be very aware of the amount of alcohol that they have or that
43:23
they want to have, right? So they again, knowledge is
43:26
power. So when you know your what, like
43:31
the why, when you know your triggers, your triggers, when
43:33
you know your, the, your emotional state and when you
43:36
know all these things, then you can actually understand better
43:41
your, you use of alcohol and yourself.
43:45
So then you can actually create change, right?
43:48
But as, as I always say, moderation is way more difficult
43:51
than going completely dry. I I always think that
43:55
moderating, when you've had, when you've used alcohol more,
44:00
when you go to moderating, you always have to be very on top of
44:04
it and you always have to revise yourself.
44:06
It's stressful. Yeah, yeah.
44:08
Because I always tell. People like, I don't know how
44:10
you do it because for me it's easy.
44:12
It's no alcohol, OK, it's out of the picture.
44:14
And when you don't have the option, it's your mental load.
44:18
Just like calms down, it reduces by half.
44:21
But then when someone is choosing to moderate, they
44:24
always need to be on top of what they're doing.
44:26
Am I drinking today? Am I not going to drink today?
44:29
Why am I drinking today? How many drinks would I have?
44:31
And you always have to be like, balancing it.
44:36
Oh yeah. It's so true.
44:37
Or, or I'm going to say I have a, you know, I have a social
44:40
engagement tonight, so I'm going to save my 2 drinks for tonight.
44:42
I just got to get through to that, you know, that social
44:44
party and then and then you have 3 and you're like, Oh, I was
44:47
only supposed to have two. And it's so true.
44:49
It's so much easier just to call it off completely.
44:51
I love that 30 day idea too, because I'm just thinking about
44:55
that like if you can do, if you can control your drinking and 30
44:59
days is will tell you a lot about yourself a lot.
45:02
If you try to, if you focus on or drinking in 30 days, you're
45:07
going to learn a lot about yourself, right?
45:09
Wow, I didn't realize that I had one after work every day.
45:11
You know, I didn't realize that I had five before noon even I
45:15
didn't even realize, you know, And so I, I love that.
45:18
I think 30 days is a really good indicator of, hey, maybe I want
45:22
to stop doing this all together, or maybe I can control it and
45:25
moderate that. So it's a it's a great test, you
45:27
know, living. I want to talk about living
45:32
intentionally. What you know, what does living
45:36
intentionally mean to you Today for me is.
45:42
Understanding what I want to do with my life and how I want to
45:46
spend the time that I'm in this earth, right?
45:49
Because I feel like everyone lives on autopilot and we don't,
45:54
we don't think that we're going to die someday, but the truth is
45:58
we don't even know if we're going to be here tomorrow,
46:00
right? So I, I'm, I'm very like, I
46:04
always go back to living in autopilot and I keep bringing
46:08
myself back to this thought of no, OK, how do you want to live
46:12
life? What do you want to spend time
46:15
doing and what you don't want to spend time doing?
46:17
Because sometimes I've found myself forcing myself to do
46:22
stuff that I didn't want to do or in situations where I didn't
46:25
want to be in or stay in longer somewhere where I was, I would
46:31
have been better just leaving, I don't know, 3 hours before I
46:34
left, right? So to do that, of course, it's I
46:39
need to revise myself constantly and understand where my
46:43
priorities are at the moment. Because obviously these
46:46
priorities change the, the older that I get, right?
46:49
So for me, living intentionally is given space to understand how
46:57
I want to spend my time, my limited time on Earth.
47:00
Yeah, time is is the most valuable.
47:01
Thing, you know, I always say that and it, it, it really is
47:06
the only thing that we got and the only thing that could be
47:09
taken away in, in a moment. You know, we never know.
47:11
That's why this one day at a time thing is so powerful.
47:14
It's like, I don't know if I'm going to be here tomorrow, like
47:16
you said, So how am I going to live my best life today?
47:19
And my, my best life is different than your best life is
47:22
different than my wife's best life.
47:23
It's it's different for everybody.
47:25
And so that's why it's important to do this self discovery.
47:29
Sylvia, if there's, you know, there's someone out there
47:31
listening that doesn't know if they want to stop, but their,
47:34
their life is they're starting to have consequences as a result
47:37
of drinking, right? Losing the job, losing
47:40
relationships for me, you know, losing my sanity, right?
47:45
Like losing my goals, my aspirations, all these things
47:48
were just crumbling in on me. Finances were through the roof.
47:52
What's one small thing that anybody can do today?
47:58
Something. That is accessible.
48:01
Maybe not easy, but accessible. Very accessible is when you're
48:06
going to pour yourself a drink or when you're going to ask like
48:10
you're going to a bar to ask for another drink or when you're in
48:13
a situation where you're actually going to have another
48:16
glass of wine or another bee or another whatever you're having.
48:20
Ask yourself like stop and ask yourself, why do I actually want
48:25
this? Or is it because I'm stressed?
48:27
Is it because I am before pre pressure because I'm everyone
48:31
else around me is drunk? Or is it because I am trying to
48:35
numb something that is worrying me?
48:38
Right. And I said that it's accessible,
48:41
but not easy because it's sometimes it's very, very
48:44
painful to understand where all where this is coming from,
48:49
right. But I think that when people
48:52
understand their whys, again, they can actually start shifting
48:56
their their behaviours, right and and understanding more how
48:59
they wanna live life. So for me, the first step is
49:03
always stopping and understanding where this is
49:05
coming from. And again, you might not know
49:09
the first, I don't know, 5-10 times you might not know because
49:13
if you have never taken the time to understand yourself, it's
49:16
something very new, right? So given the time to work on, it
49:22
will grow, will come with time, but you actually need to
49:25
understand or like ask yourself why frequently.
49:29
So then you can actually get to a response that can actually
49:34
help you. I love that, you know, I always.
49:36
Ask myself, what is my motive here?
49:39
You know, what is my motive? What, what am I trying to
49:41
achieve? Am I trying to fit in like you
49:43
said? Or can I actually just not stop
49:46
because of sad emotion and I'm stressed?
49:49
I think that that's a very practical tip that anybody can
49:54
try. And it's, it's not easy, like
49:56
you said, because when you're in it, sometimes what's the point?
49:59
But if you build that muscle over time, it's like going to
50:01
the gym, you know, it's, it's really, you're going to suck at
50:04
first at when you're lifting weights, anything new, right?
50:07
Paddle boarding was one for me. I got into paddle boarding and
50:10
you know, I sucked at first, but I over time you build that
50:12
muscle, You keep doing it over and over again.
50:14
And then hopefully you come to a point of realization where
50:17
you're this isn't serving me, You know, this isn't benefiting
50:20
me. Maybe I can do something else
50:21
instead, like go for a walk or, or try a new hobby or connect
50:25
with a friend. Like you said, pick up the
50:26
phone. Sylvia.
50:28
I really sorry and definitely. The last thing I was going to
50:32
say is, and sometimes we think that the reason behind our urge
50:38
to drink is very, very deep, like for example, that emotional
50:40
or trying to fit in and all this.
50:42
But I realized, obviously during these these six years that I've
50:45
been navigating this, I realized that sometimes now that, for
50:50
example, we're approaching a hot, like hot summer days and
50:54
all that, I remember I just was craving something refreshing.
50:58
So I would be like, I really crave like a fresh, a refreshing
51:01
cocktail or like a cold bee or something like that.
51:03
And then I was like, what if I just have the like, I don't
51:06
know, something different that is also refreshing.
51:08
And then I realized that that's what I was craving.
51:11
I was craving that nice drink that was a bit like, I don't
51:15
know, a bit different from water or like a soda, but would
51:19
actually give me that. I don't know that reflect
51:22
freshness right in a, in a hot summer day.
51:24
So it doesn't need to be a very deep reasoning.
51:28
It can be as easy as you just want something fresh or you just
51:32
want something sweet or any anything like that.
51:35
So sometimes you don't need to go that deep.
51:38
But the more you ask yourself why, the more reasons you'll
51:41
see, and then the the more you understand what triggers those
51:46
urges, right? That's a great point.
51:48
That is a. Phenomenal point I come to a
51:50
realization too that yeah, I I just like soda water, you know
51:54
this sparkling water that that often times I'm just thirsty and
51:59
I just want, you know, a refreshing drink.
52:02
I I love that it's so true. Sylvia, thank you so much for
52:05
your time. Time is a valuable thing.
52:07
I think what you're doing is, is a beautiful, an important
52:12
journey. You know, you've, you've given
52:13
us a lot of practical, helpful tips that we can implement in
52:17
our lives and where can we find you and where can we find the
52:21
app? So the app.
52:23
If people search unconscious moderation in App Store or in
52:28
Google Play, they will find it. And if they have more questions
52:31
about how the program works, who's behind it and all this, I
52:34
always suggest having a look at the website, which is UM dot
52:38
app. So UM dot APP, everything is
52:42
explained there. There's so much information that
52:44
is very, very relevant. And if anybody has any question
52:47
that is not responded in the in the website, there's also a
52:50
contact form that they can send any questions that they have or
52:53
we'll be happy to respond. We're also on on social media
52:57
like Instagram. So yeah, I encourage everyone to
53:00
just feel free and have a look. Love it.
53:04
Thank you so much. I appreciate your your words of,
53:08
you know, experience, strength and hope and there is another
53:11
solution. You know there is another way.
53:13
So thank you for what you do and until next time, I appreciate
53:17
you. Thank you so much for having me.
53:19
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53:25
The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
53:28
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53:30
This content is not a substitute for professional medical advice,
53:34
addiction treatment, or therapy. If you or someone you know is
53:37
struggling with addiction, please consult the licensed
53:40
physician, addiction specialist, or mental health professional.
53:44
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