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Why You Feel Lost After Doing "Everything Right" | Identity Foreclosure & Ambiguous Loss 2|10 · The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity

• Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Lost Podcast. I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra, LMHC: And I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: As licensed mental health counselors, we're here to unpack the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral. Cassandra, LMHC: Because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Join us as we name these hidden losses and create a meaningful path forward together. So, we do talk about quiet losses on this show. And today we're pulling on a very specific thread from our sit-down with Amy Kelly, which we aired last week. So hopefully you all got a chance to listen to that. And if you didn't, go back and listen. It was pretty awesome. In that conversation, Amy talked about doing everything right in her 20s. University, because everyone went. Marriage at 21. The house, the corporate career, building a pristine resume that society applauded. Then Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: she realized that none of it was hers. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. If you have ever reached a destination everyone told you to aim for, and then you looked around and realized you were completely absent from your own life, this conversation's for you. Take a brief moment to hit subscribe. it supports us in reaching our goal of 500 subscribers. And this ensures us that this conversation gets to people who need to hear it. Let's dive in. Cassandra, LMHC: So when Amy said I was Amy and that person's wife going to that job Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: and I thought that was the box, Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: it hit me in a place that I get hit pretty frequently in these conversations. I was gonna say that it doesn't happen often. No, it happens pretty frequently. things come up and Yes! The stinking, stinking feels. Daiana, LMHC: I know. No. Yeah. It hits us in the feels. It hits us in in the face. Cassandra, LMHC: Because we all have these like identities that are prescribed to us, and these ideas of how things are supposed to go and what's supposed to come next. But her living with that thought, she was describing what developmental psychologists call identity foreclosure. These are the roles that are handed down by our culture, our family systems, our expectations, without us or anyone else ever really imagining. who they are or who we actually are. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: We take these roles on without even thinking about it because we think that that's what's supposed to happen next. Daiana, LMHC: I have a lot of grace for people in their 20s because I was there, you were there. In that decade, we're just trying to make it as what we think an adult is. And there's so much pressure. There's so Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: much pressure. Are you still living with your parents? what what's your job? What's your career? How much money are you making? And you do genuinely feel like I'm supposed to make it this decade in this decade, you know? So I can see how checking off all these boxes, and I think that continues. We are always Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: checking off boxes. But checking off the boxes of what makes us an adult. I think I feel like that's like the underlying under that for when we're in our 20s. And in mental health, we also see that this high achievement is often an adaptive, adaptive survival mechanism. Right? We're just trying Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: to make it, we're trying to survive and we're trying to prove ourselves. We're trying to prove ourselves at work. In our friendship group, everywhere. Right. So you just keep your head down and you get the degree, you buy the property, and you perform the role for for women. A lot of times it's just being the good girl. And for for the guys, is just being that dependable provider. And when you the thing is that all of these checked boxes get a lot of external approval. It it is if you say, This is what I do. I'm an accountant and I work for this firm. Everyone is just like, my God, that's so amazing. And you get a lot of approval. But that approval makes it makes us mask. Right? It makes us mask. And while we're going through this quiet, chaotic experience within us, and we It in order to to handle it, to live with it, we detach from ourselves. Cassandra, LMHC: there was also the massive career shift that happened in two thousand and twenty, where people were given this time during the pandemic to actually sit and think for six months about what it is that they actually want to do. They were given the opportunity Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: to reflect on if what they're doing actually made them happy, actually Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: ticked their own boxes, lived up to their expectations, or if they were doing things that were expected of them. And many, many people, ourselves included, shifted Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: careers, shifted ideals, shifted the boxes into something that felt more authentic. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. We got a time, we got a chance to slow down. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. And I just think that was a very powerful time because we weren't so worried about the roles that we were handed by anyone at that point. we actually got the opportunity to test and see if they matched who we wanted to be. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: that was a lot of Amy's experience from what I remember of the interview, which was just again fantastic. Was a lot of her experience finding who she was was through the lived experience of Realizing who she wasn't. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. There's a clip I think I I'm I'm working on sharing on on social media where she says, I wish somebody would have came back and told me, you don't have to marry the next person. You don't have to do this, like, really care about yourself. And I I think that if somebody would have, I don't think she would have heard it. I think that in your twenties, And there are certain things that you just have to experience to learn it. I was brought up believing or or being taught that I don't have to make all the mistakes myself to learn from others and to make my own mistakes and never make the same mistake twice or try not to, right? But there are certain things that yes, you can learn from others, but then there are others that that you have to go through yourself. These last two episodes, we've talked about identity. One of them before Amy's, we talked for a whole hour, and I know that we are going to always talk about identity. but I think something that I wanted to come back to is that yes, we have we we do let go of things, but some things we do keep, and some Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: things we can keep it. But it needs to be repack repacked. It needs to be repackaged in a in a way that fits us now. So I wanted to play a game called Keep, Toss, or Repack. And I was going back and forth on this, if it should be like, you know, kind of like that that game like kill, sleep with or marry. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: Mary or Mary, yeah. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. But I I couldn't come up with the right things for this. So we're just gonna come up with our own with our own. So I know the list, right? Cassandra, LMHC: I really wonder how you would have come up with that. Like what would those have been? Like hmm. But I do like the idea of a deep tosser repack. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I know. So I was like, okay, let's just Yeah. Yeah. So if you think about your life and the things that we've shared here and and whatever, like what is something that you would toss? Something that you would keep? Or something that you would keep, but it needs to be repacked. It needs to be reevaluated. Cassandra, LMHC: Okay. All right. I hear I'm picking up what you're putting down there. so I talk a lot about like whether it's here or in my professional life or even with my Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: family and friends about expectations, right? Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: Expectations are nothing more than premeditated resentments. And yeah, and I can't take credit for that one. That came from Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm That is so good. Cassandra, LMHC: many, many other people than myself that Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: have learned that lesson and are trying to help other people not have to learn that lesson, but Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: expectations are premeditated resentments. So the toss for me would be the expectation that productivity requires constant availability. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I used to and sometimes still do. I'm gonna put that in like hyphen and sometimes still do Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: or parentheses, I was thinking parentheses, Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: feel guilty about Turning off my phone at five PM, like having a do not disturb on, or not responding to a text message until the following day. and without giving myself the opportunity to like answer every single email or sitting down at my computer and staying up till nine o'clock at night and figuring out the schedule and figuring out who needs what and going forward into that. I would like to say that's been completely thrown away. It's it's a work in progress. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: My friend, because honestly, if it were completely gone, then I'd have far less anxiety than I do. But I have Daiana, LMHC: Right. Cassandra, LMHC: gotten a little bit better about not responding to text messages before 9 a.m. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: after seven o'clock, it is unreasonable for me to respond to text messages then. Unless it's Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: like something personal, unless my mom texts me or something like that. But Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: and then Allowing other people to treat me like I'm constantly available. Also something that Daiana, LMHC: Mm Cassandra, LMHC: I have been working on tossing in the bin because quite honestly, Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: in this a day and age of technology, if I text someone or if someone texts me, their response or their expectation is for me to be immediately available because everyone is attached to their phones. You're walking around with like a highly expensive piece of computer technology in your pocket, so why wouldn't you be available all the time? Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. That's what makes it really difficult. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. So what I'd like to keep though is my baseline discipline with routines. I love a good routine. Sometimes I get sick of the routines. I also have ADHD and I get bored and I want something Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: different. But I do love a routine. Like the summertime with the kids drives me up the wall when there's Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: no structure. I like I love it when school is over because we get a couple weeks and everyone's cool. And then by the time like the end of July rolls around, I'm ready to be done again. So structure actually gives my brain safety. So I'm gonna keep my morning focus blocked. So I have certain things that I do every day before I go to work, or I get up and I have meetings and I I chat with people on Zoom first thing in the morning, or I get the kids up and sometimes I go to the gym at 5 a.m. Sometimes I go to the gym at 8 30 a.m. But I always make sure that there's some level of movement in my mornings. And then Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm, Cassandra, LMHC: my day starts. Daiana, LMHC: mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Some would argue that my day has already started. But that's just for the things. Daiana, LMHC: I would. Cassandra, LMHC: So what I do want to repack though is the high standards that I keep for myself. I used to put perfectionism into that suitcase. And by used to, I mean sometimes still do. But I'm working on repacking it as discernment. So I care very deeply about the quality of my clinical work and of my familial work and all the different things that I do, even even this podcast. I care very deeply about this. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yes, I tell. Cassandra, LMHC: And I can do all that without tying my human value to the flawless execution of that. Like I I made a mistake Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: earlier w in a Google sheet that we were using and I immediately was like, I'm the worst. I didn't do I Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. my god. Cassandra, LMHC: had done 17 other entries correctly. This one that I did, I was like, I I messed that up. What a what's wrong with me? Why would I do that? And you were like, No, it's cool, I got it. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know. Cassandra, LMHC: Okay, that's fine. So that's what I would like to toss keep and unpack. So my question, Daiana, is what would you like to toss keep or unpack? Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I repack. Mm-hmm. Well, you you said so many good things. I wanna I wanna be here a little bit longer. No, because the re repacking Cassandra, LMHC: All right, all right. We're not supposed to talk about me. That gives me f Daiana, LMHC: Well, not necessarily about you, something that'll apply to everybody, but it's like just the the the idea of repacking it or repurposing or regifting to yourself is that you don't I A lot of times we think that we are letting go of everything when we choose a different life or or when things are taken away. It is still good to have high standards. I don't think that you if if that's the type of person you are, you're not just not gonna change that. But it's Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: like how can we shift it? And I think that with the thing where you're keeping and and repacking, it does take us just to slow down and say, what do I really want? Like I and and have that flexibility. I do like routines. It does help me. And then sometimes I need to toss it. Like I sometimes I need to let it go and do something else. So it's just that it I think that you talked about perfectionism as like all or nothing. I think that what you did there was not trying to be not all or nothing. And you said working on it. And I Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: think that's huge. It that just because we're therapists doesn't mean it really means nothing when it comes down to life. All that means is that we are aware of it and we know how to work on it. And it doesn't mean that we don't need friends, our own therapists sometimes to to tell us what our blind spots are. So Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I just think that that was all around. Really awesome. Cassandra, LMHC: That's actually one of my favorite topics of conversation that you and I have is where we process each other's blind spots. it's incredibly helpful to me because there are things going on that I can't come to a conclusion on or don't really understand Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: the the full depth of what it is or how to even approach it. And then stuff like that'll Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: keep me awake at two o'clock in the morning. And so Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: seeking out support from someone else. or whether professional or not, can really change how I view things. And it's r it's incredibly helpful. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, the thing I'm going to toss is similar similar to yours, which is the idea of saying yes to everything. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And I learned a lot last year, starting my own practice about marketing, networking, all of those things, right? And and I was in in a season of saying yes to every professional committee committee or initiative or marketing tool and I realized that like quality over quantity kind of thing is the applies Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: to that as well that not all connections or all networking is going to help me or is aligned with me and things like that. even with the podcast we're learning different skills about how to to work with our guests and to see what what we're looking for because we're pretty niche and it's and it's not for not everyone feels comfortable in sharing their story Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: and we're we're learning skills so that's another thing about even re in the repacking sometimes we need to learn a skill to repack right so I think it's Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: just saying yes to everything just because I think is an opportunity. And because I think it's gonna be helpful. It's not always especially when we don't have a lot of time. And yeah. And then what I do want to keep and I always just come back to is an adult with a hobby. Like we just need time, like you said, off our like we you talked about having our phones with us all the time and always being available is stepping away from from devices and screens like this weekend. I was able to do that and I felt so much better. And I love playing the piano and I love puzzles. And we played a lot of card games this weekend. And it we had a lot Cassandra, LMHC: That must have been awesome. Daiana, LMHC: of fun. Yeah. A lot of fun. And it was funny because I was called old so many times and Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: it was just really cute. It was cute though, because it's just like the kids were just so comfortable with like roasting me and I was just like loving it. And they were like, it's just cause your reflexes are so slow because you're old. Or if like if if I had to get all the discarded cards, it were like, you get it because you're old. So it was really cute. And just being a kid, being off of of of social media or just your phone, it's something that keeps me anchored to what how I wanna live my life. Which is more connected. Cassandra, LMHC: It's also gonna be funny when those kids are in their forties and they're like, We used to think forty was old. Like like that's that's something to look forward to. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it's cute. I think that I'm like, come up with a new joke though. Like, come up with a new one. And I'm gonna repack similar to you, but is it it's ambition that I I can't tell myself I'm not an ambitious person and I'm not gonna say I like I don't always want more. And it has become Less external and more internal. Like I don't want to be impressive on paper. I want to impress myself. Like, how do I feel on my in my day-to-day? How sustainable is it? And I and I'm really grateful to God and and to myself for making the decisions I've made in the past five years, which have been really difficult. A lot of them were so difficult, but it has allowed me to to live a more sustainable life. that I can have a private practice that I can raise my kids. And it it again, like Cassandra was saying, it's not that it's easy. It's not that we don't stop working at it because we always do. But it's just so I don't I'm not running at a deficit. And I don't have to I'm thank God I'm not in my twenties no more because I don't have to feel like I have to prove myself. So but I'm still ambitious. Cassandra, LMHC: I get that. I get the ambition. I your ambition and my ambition kinda r run a little bit differently. Like Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: you'll come up with things that I'm like, I never even thought about that. Like we could we could do that? That's the Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: you're like, yeah, that was the entire purpose of what we're doing. Like, I thought it was just for funsies. Like But I'm Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: very driven. Like once I have a goal Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yes. Cassandra, LMHC: That's that's where I'm headed to. That's what I'm working on, and not a lot can keep me from it. Unless it's Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: the whole like bless it or block it idea. Because Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: sometimes things are just blocked and aren't gonna work. However, I find more often or not, if I rely on my intuition, things kind of work to my benefit. And I'm just thinking about what it was like when I was actually in my twenties. And I can say I'm grateful I'm not there anymore, but there's a lot of really cool things about being there. It's Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: it's such a season of growth and change and excitement and and stress and all of the things all of the time. And you have the the energy and the strength and the and the ambition and the the drive to do it. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: When I think about the things that I did when I was that age, when I thought I think about the things that I thought that I did when I was that age, it's just astronomically hands down so much more than what I would have the energy to do today. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: So it's it's a different season, but it can be just as educational as the season that we're in right now. Daiana, LMHC: It is. It definitely is. Thank you for playing that game with me. That was cute. It's fun. Cassandra, LMHC: Yes, that was fun. And thank you for letting me repeatedly say the word unpack instead of repack. I do apologize for that. Daiana, LMHC: It's okay. But it it, you know, that came to mind because you know, Andy did this and Amy like they left everything behind and it was a Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: radical departure. It was just like leave the marriage, leave the corporate role, like leave family. And when I think about toss, you know, keep or repackage is that we it doesn't have to look like that. Right. That Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: that we don't it doesn't have to be so I don't know. I would say dramatic, but it's not dramatic in that sense. It's just very ex like extreme. Again, not in that sense, because it could be for you to completely leave your environment. Sometimes that's what we need. And we're all on our own journey. and there for the mo for most of us or most of the time, it's not about changing your whole entire life. Right. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: There is, there are different things that you would that we can do. And going back to like living losses is that a major thing happens during that time, which is that when we leave our career, when we step away from things that we've established, things that society has asked us to do, we're we're in that space of what's next. Right. And we don't notice what has died within us in a transition or the things that we've let go of. And Pauline Boss, she's the one who coined ambiguous loss. And just as a refresher, that is when you are physically here, but you're physiologically or psychologically. yeah, that your your psychological role is gone. Psychologically, that role, that thing that got you all of that external praise is not there. And then you're you're you're grieving. that former career that we talked about it last episode too is like I chose to leave the marriage Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: or I chose to leave the job, but you're still grieving and that is a real loss and it's called ambiguous loss. Cassandra, LMHC: And it's again, it's one of those losses that doesn't come with a funeral and rarely ever gets acknowledged. And sometimes the decision's made for you and sometimes the decision Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: isn't. So especially where careers are concerned, there are people Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: that are forced out of the career, and then there's people that choose to step out of the career. And both are just as valid as the other. personally, Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I stepped away from a career of like thirteen years. when I was almost forty and was like, yeah, I want to do something different. And I was terrified and I was sad and I felt this void that I didn't have any idea of where I was headed or what I was doing, even though I did. It just felt like the end goal was so far away. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: So people can panic at this this part, like during the bridge phase where you've changed the career. and you're not quite sure what's coming next, like not having that s so-called elevator pitch at a party, not being able to tell Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: people about what it is that you do in a way that like will give them all of the feelings and they'll be amazed about what you're doing. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. God forbid this happens during like a high school or college reunion. That you don't have that in the between. Mm hmm. Yeah, it does. Cassandra, LMHC: You're like, mm, I'm currently doing the X, Y, and Z. It it triggers social shame. Just like what you were saying, it triggers social shame and it triggers a lot of different types of shame. Because we often will mistake this discomfort of that empty space for a personal failing. Why couldn't I make it work? Why didn't I want to make it Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: work? Why did I choose to leave? W was that the best decision? And that's where the panic comes from. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: But the reality is, it's the natural void that follows a major life pivot. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: we're all subject to it at some point or the other. Just nobody really talks about it. I remember that feeling so well. I remember feeling so proud of myself because I was the one that knew the things and could do the things and could do the things like they were breathing. And then just to not be doing that anymore. And I started building. this little program that I did for my daughter's school and I took the program from like two days a week to four days a week and I was so proud of myself for doing that. And then there were other things that came up like I got pregnant and I was in grad school and I was doing these programs. And so like I had things like that to talk about. But the idea is not to base my self-worth on the what it is I'm doing and more based on what it is that I'm being 'cause we someone keeps telling me, we are not human doings. We are human beings. And that means a lot. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I that's the shift that yeah. That's the shift. That external to external validation to internal safety. Right. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: To could to make that connection. I think that that's where we become or we live more authentically, more aligned with who we really are. I remember Amy talked about like pushing herself so far into burnout. I was definitely there. and it's funny, I didn't know you were there thirteen years 'cause I was at my previous location for thirteen years too. At the hospital. Cassandra, LMHC: That's so funny. Daiana, LMHC: It was exactly thirteen years. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And I'm pretty sure Amy said the you cannot think your way out of a checklist addiction while your body is Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. It is. Cassandra, LMHC: operating on adrenaline, which I thought was phenomenal. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: she says that when you operate out of fear, rest feels like laziness, and slowing down feels like you fell behind. That Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: spoke so true to me, because even The only time I can truly rest or take a minute or take a breath is when I'm the only one in the house. That is the only Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: time that I can allow myself without guilt, without shame, without anything else, is to sit and take a minute in the silence. When Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: other people are here, I feel like I'm so lazy if I'm not doing anything. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: we were talking about this a little bit earlier. Like I I operate a lot out of fight or flight Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: because that is the habit that I have. And it's something that I'm working towards tossing. Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, we all do. Mm-hmm. We're wired to be in in fight or flight to make sure that we're not in danger. So that emotional regulation, noticing that we're dysregulated, it's it's everything. And it is a practice. We're always gonna have to do that. And that's okay. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah, just it's about being mindful and learning how to, you know, calm your system. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It is it is also tolerating that. Like just to be able to tolerate the discomfort and giving yourself that pause, not to fill in like she was saying, like, I don't have to marry the next person. That I mean, I think Andy Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: said the same thing, like that he was he proposed to his next girlfriend after that because he thought that that's what he was supposed to do. Or it felt like it it is that adrenaline or it's that thing that it's it's you're driven by it. You think that that's what you're supposed to do. It's almost like an impulse it becomes. Right. So it doesn't have to be another project, another goal. And it does feel weird because after I left and during COVID and left that career and I was starting this one, I did feel really uncomfortable not having a goal. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Like what's n not having, even though I was going back to school and all of that. But it was just very different. Not working at the same time, having all these other things. So Yeah. All right. So we are ready to wrap up today and we're gonna move on to our favorite segment, Living Loss Lessons. Cassandra, LMHC: This is where we leave you with a tangible tool or mindset shift because it's not about fixing grief. It's about finding the strength to carry it. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. All right. So Cassandra, looking back at our breakdown of dismantling the checklist life, what is one lesson you'd like to leave our listeners with today? Cassandra, LMHC: So I think we kind of touched on it earlier, and I'm going Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: to bring it back up again because it's worth saying for myself and for anyone who's listening. But Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: my mindset shift is is separating my character from Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: my context. So when my resume has changed, when my relationship status has changed. man, I've done some crazy things when that happens. Or my title Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: changes. Or Anything happens to make me feel less than I need to remember that my fundamental worth has not moved an inch. In fact, a lot of times the experience that I get from that kind of ups me or levels me up, as the kids say. I don't know if they actually say that, but they used to, so who knows? Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I haven't heard now. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: I can grieve the context, but I can also recognize that my competence, my ability. and my emotion emotional capacity, they Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: all belong to me and and not the job or the role that I left. And it's mine and I get to do with it what I want. And I didn't lose anything just by changing the role. Daiana, LMHC: That's true. Actually, that Cassandra, LMHC: There's the Daiana, LMHC: that brings up like what I wanted to to say today. And it's taking what you said and putting it into action. And this is just one way. So this is just an example of what you we can do this week. And is an actionable tool that you can try for just this week, next seven days. And when you introduce yourself or you connect with your relatives, with friends, acquaintances. Even with people that you know, it doesn't have to be new people. practice answering a question like, how have you been or what have you been up to without mentioning your job title, your credentials, how productive you've been. to focus more on your lived state. How or what are you learning about? Have you been resting? What h you know, what I was gonna say holidays because they are That is in my mind, you know, yeah. Talk about the holidays, talk about what you are looking forward to. And a really important piece to this is to notice that internal resistance that comes Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: up when you don't lead with this is what I've gotten done this year, and all of those things, to let that resistance just be and not. drive you to talk about your productivity. Cassandra, LMHC: I think I've shared in in episode prior to this that I have a a very dear friend that we used to work together and we would occasionally be out doing something and people would be like, well what do you do? Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And he would tell them what he does. He would never mention his job. He would mention the trip that he just got back from, the the hobbies that he has, Daiana, LMHC: Ooh. Cassandra, LMHC: the dogs that he was raising. He would mention all of the things that were what he did. Because that was how he identified himself. The job was just the means to getting to that. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: It was just it was a tool, it wasn't anything more than that. But what he did was the things that he wanted to talk about. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. As I was thinking about that, I was thinking like how would I talk about my job without saying what I do? And most of the time I don't like telling people what I do. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: but what I love about my job is connecting with people and listening to stories and just being there for people. So I don't know. I'll I'll work on that as well. Cassandra, LMHC: I also don't like to tell people what I do unless we're like, you know, hosting a podcast together. but I I'll Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: usually just like brush it over. I work in mental health and like just kind of move the conversation on from there. And it's it's a really Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: funny thing because as someone who used to pride themselves on telling everyone what they did, I've learned to Daiana, LMHC: No way. Cassandra, LMHC: have a little bit of humility about it. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Mostly because I don't want to make anyone else uncomfortable. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think for me, I don't just don't want to get into the conversation because it's like I don't want to talk about work and and it's I don't know. It's just a a weird space to because people start telling you their idea about mental health and their their things and you know some that's a really good point. And I didn't know about that, friend. I love that. Cassandra, LMHC: yeah. I thought for sure I had mentioned it before. He he's he's amazing. He does a lot of really cool stuff too. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you. And thank you to our listeners for spending this time with us. Be sure to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if this conversation reminds you of someone who needs to hear that their grief is valid, please share it with them. Cassandra, LMHC: And as a quick reminder, this podcast is for educational and intent entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we are not your therapists. And this does not replace professional mental health care. If you feel like you would like to speak to someone, please read please reach out to a professional near you. Daiana, LMHC: And we'll catch you next week on The Living Loss.