Latest / The Other 22 Hours / Ruby Amanfu on guarding your creative energy force field, the illusion of major-label financials, and cooking dinner for Willie Nelson.

Transcript

Ruby Amanfu on guarding your creative energy force field, the illusion of major-label financials, and cooking dinner for Willie Nelson. · The Other 22 Hours

0:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes the truth is, you were on a wrong path or you were focused on the wrong things.
0:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think at the core, owning truth is, who are we authentically?
0:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes that is beneficial and sometimes it's hurtful and figuring out what that is, period.
0:23
[SPEAKER_00]: We often define artists by their output, their records, books, movies, and the times they're on stage.
0:29
[SPEAKER_01]: But the art is made in the quiet, the struggle, and the mundane, the hours that no one sees.
0:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm McKayla Ann.
0:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Aaron Kramer-Hase.
0:38
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the other 22 hours.
0:40
[SPEAKER_00]: An exploration of the creative life lived in between.
0:57
[SPEAKER_00]: This week is the second installment of our Reissue series where we dig back through our archive for the past three years and pick some of our favorite conversations to share with you.
1:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Though we've picked these handful here, please know that we have over 160 other conversations to pick from.
1:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're on a long drive this summer, maybe outmowing your lawn, please take it second to scroll through our feed and find some other musicians or non musicians that you love every conversation is valuable in its own right.
1:24
[SPEAKER_00]: In addition, you can head to our YouTube channel where we've taken every one of these conversations and group them into playlist's curated by topic.
1:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So if this conversation resonates with you, there are many more just like it waiting for you over there.
1:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And today's episode is resharing our conversation with Ruby Amam Fu from June 19th, 2024.
1:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Ruby is a singer-songwriter, activist, chef, and actress who has been nominated for Grammys for her work with her as well as Brandy Carlisle and Alicia Keys.
1:53
[SPEAKER_01]: She was a member of Jack White's band, is producer and songwriter for the ABC series Cleanse, has played songs on ABC CBS MTV amongst many others, and has worked with people like Patti LeBelle, Nora Jones, John Prime, Sarah Burrellis, and was part of Beyonce's Lemonade album.
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[SPEAKER_01]: excited to share Ruby's episode because a few weeks ago we had the guest Amy Grant, who just put out a brand new record which features a song co-written and guest performance by Ruby.
2:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So it felt altogether very fitting.
2:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And with that we hope you enjoy our conversation with Ruby Amam Fuhu.
2:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for agreeing to sit for this conversation with us.
2:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of shocked that we've never met in person because we have a lot of mutual friends.
2:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I do like a little bit of research before this conversation and you have a lot going on.
2:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I do.
2:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Like so many hats, what's that you're wearing?
3:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Or this songwriter, producer, chef.
3:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know you were a chef.
3:06
[SPEAKER_02]: It's weird, and it took me a long time to even allow that word to be used, right?
3:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Because, I mean, I'm trained in life school, but it was hard for me to own it.
3:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And I definitely own it now.
3:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, after you cook multiple times for a hundred plus people, and you're able to pull it off.
3:23
[SPEAKER_02]: somebody's paying you.
3:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you can call yourself, you know, that.
3:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
3:27
[SPEAKER_00]: For sure.
3:28
[SPEAKER_00]: How did that come about?
3:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that something you've been doing for a while?
3:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
3:31
[SPEAKER_02]: So the first time I cooked publicly was in 2000 and 11.
3:41
[SPEAKER_02]: it was for like a silent auction that this group Porter's call was doing and at the time I was being seen aided helped loved by Porter's call so they reached out to the creators in the community who are benefited by that program and they're doing a silent auction to raise money for Porter's call.
4:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was going to do it at the time.
4:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, this guy's saying breakfast is called Sam and Ruby.
4:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And we decided to come up with a concept where it was food and it was music.
4:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was the first time I knew by that point.
4:16
[SPEAKER_02]: I was pretty good at cooking, but I
4:19
[SPEAKER_02]: had not before then put it out there like that.
4:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that was like, you believe in yourself enough now, Ruby, that you're going to put this up for auction.
4:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's going to go for a price that you're going to be super proud to present food for.
4:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it was really great.
4:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Like a couple fluent from Wisconsin, the couple who won the lived in Wisconsin didn't know and you know anything about Porter's call, but they came to my house and we did a four course dinner.
4:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I made three of those courses and Sam was a chocolatier the time.
4:45
[SPEAKER_02]: So he made some chocolates.
4:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we did some music.
4:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that really began that journey.
4:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have a trademarked entity.
4:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Those born out of that called supper and serenade.
4:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been able to partner.
4:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And then was able to utilize that name again with Chef Andy Little at Josephine.
5:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I can say former Josephine restaurant here in Nashville, just such a bummer to stay former.
5:07
[SPEAKER_02]: But we partnered and did dinner from music cares, called supper and serenade at Josephine.
5:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And just different things, you know, and just friends believing in me, truly.
5:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And Leanne will mac at one point.
5:17
[SPEAKER_02]: She was having Willie Nelson's band over because they were working on a holiday project.
5:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And she didn't want to cook.
5:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I did, you know, just so just really kind of is kind of natural how it happens.
5:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, just hearing you talk, I could substitute cooking with music, it seems, and there's a lot of parallels.
5:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you started off by saying, like, I had a hard time calling myself a chef for a while.
5:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hear so many people would be like, I have a hard time calling myself a professional musician.
5:43
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're in public, can you get paid for it?
5:44
[SPEAKER_00]: You must be talking about cooking or music.
5:48
[SPEAKER_02]: the worth of it and the weight of it, but I definitely don't want to tie it exclusively to payment, but that's what for me I was like, oh, yeah, I got to check.
5:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And the same applies to when I, you know, officially left college and my parents went freaked out anymore because like, here's a check.
6:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I've got a publishing deal now.
6:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm, I am actually doing this, this is work.
6:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Not just fun, and I'm not saying work can't be fun, you know that.
6:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but it's different, right?
6:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that tie we talk about that a lot on this podcast, the tie of money validating us in our role and not wanting that because we all know also even if you are getting paid there might be a day that you don't get paid as often for your work.
6:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And then what does that do to your identity?
6:32
[SPEAKER_01]: You've been doing this a long time as a creative person, whether it's cooking or music.
6:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you talk about the ups and downs of that.
6:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you've had times, we're like, it hasn't been flowing and what that's done to your mindset.
6:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, you know, the thing that I connected with most about what you were saying is the line or this way that we create what we perceive as balance, where earning is here and passion is here, but sometimes I feel like the passion deposits on this side too, because we're in a really tricky career where
7:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a gifting.
7:13
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a desire.
7:14
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a passion.
7:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Most of us from when we were little to take something that is so precious and treasured.
7:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Basically, you have to put a suit and tie on it.
7:25
[SPEAKER_02]: That's tough.
7:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I have found is when I am only and exclusively.
7:31
[SPEAKER_02]: pushing to financially earn from this treasure, then I get more depleted than the times when I'm doing the work and not financially earning right and I find that the times that I allow.
7:48
[SPEAKER_02]: and actually sometimes create opportunity to not have to think about money that rebuilds me, that fortifies me and almost creates what feels like a natural pipeline of energy for the money making work to come.
8:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Relationships are really important to me in that way.
8:10
[SPEAKER_02]: a lot of my business relationships came from seeing eye to eye in terms of just the personal relationship first.
8:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I've never been somebody able to walk into a room and be lying to, oh, that person's a list or that, or I need to rub shoulders with that person.
8:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I've always despised that.
8:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I've never been able to do that.
8:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And because of my introversion, I'm
8:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Generally the one who will find some other quiet person or somebody standing by themselves and I'm just craving that one-on-one conversation or I find people that I feel alike energy for some reason and the beauty is throughout the course of history of my career
8:52
[SPEAKER_02]: You just never know who those people are, but if you go with personal connection first, I find that it makes for incredibly surprising work investment, work relationships, fruitful.
9:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've found that there's kind of like a baseline trust there, obviously, but with that trust is kind of like in a safety net sense.
9:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You can reach a little bit more.
9:15
[SPEAKER_00]: You can try some things.
9:17
[SPEAKER_00]: You can push yourself.
9:18
[SPEAKER_00]: You can pull the other person a little bit more versus I do a lot of writing for sink and TV and stuff like that.
9:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like,
9:26
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'll get set up on rights and that's fun and it's its own thing.
9:29
[SPEAKER_00]: But rarely does it ever as fulfilling.
9:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels like kind of like a task, whereas I'd much rather right with a friend that maybe doesn't write in that world much and like chase that down because it's fun.
9:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's that trust there and we can try some cool stuff.
9:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, friendship first is huge.
9:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I was set up for co-rides as young as 1919.
9:51
[SPEAKER_02]: 19 is when I got my first major publishing deal.
9:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And I did that thing of you walking to a room.
9:57
[SPEAKER_02]: You never met the person or the people before and your late bear and you're supposed to pour out whatever you're supposed to pour out.
10:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just got so exhausted by that to the point that before I said yes to any co-right and I do this to this day before I say yes to any co-right, I research that person and not just dare with Capitia, I mean, I barely do what Capitia to be honest, that's the stuff that somebody has written all neat secretaryally.
10:27
[SPEAKER_02]: but I will go to their socials and see what they're putting out into the world.
10:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And if it resonates and if I feel that safety net thing that you were talking about here, and you know, so I do that to this day and if it doesn't align with who I am, who I strive to be, then it doesn't happen.
10:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's kept me out of some rooms.
10:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure.
10:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
10:50
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's kept my energy for us to feel all ooey gooey delicious.
10:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
10:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, I mean, yeah, it's probably kept you out of rooms, but like, did you miss anything being out of those rooms?
11:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
11:05
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
11:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you've all been in that situation where you're three hours feels like you've been sitting in there for three days.
11:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes.
11:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was a few years ago where you said, your inner peace is your priority.
11:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, you referenced that you got burned out.
11:21
[SPEAKER_01]: What's been your process of learning how and what have you had to go through?
11:26
[SPEAKER_01]: to kind of maybe be forced to prioritize your inner peace, your energy over what we are told all the time is like what you have to do to be successful.
11:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Man, what's coming to mind right now is the concept of collisions.
11:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I hate that this is true, but sometimes it takes a catastrophe or a collision
11:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I've got this, I've got this, and for me that was allowing others to control me, to control my choices, especially because I was so young when I got involved in this industry.
12:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I knew this doesn't feel healthy.
12:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sleeping great at night.
12:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not eating well or enough.
12:17
[SPEAKER_02]: There's just a lot of things about feeling inauthentic, but allowing people who I knew, not even about not having my best interest at heart.
12:27
[SPEAKER_02]: It's that I wasn't speaking what my best interest were.
12:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
12:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't speaking my truth.
12:33
[SPEAKER_02]: But just like somebody who is constantly driving while holding a phone and texting, you can do that for a while, but at a certain point, collision, or catastrophe.
12:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And when that happened, you are woken up when you hopefully survive it.
12:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know not a lot of us in this career have survived those up and downs, but I was lucky that I did.
12:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it was
12:57
[SPEAKER_02]: that collision that shifted me and made me begin to share my truth and to own what I was sharing because there were times when I would say this is my truth but I'm okay if it doesn't resonate with you right or I'm okay if you want to do something different but this is my truth and I'm taking ownership if I own it I'm going to care for it just like this house cement I own this house and I'm taking care of it.
13:25
[SPEAKER_02]: and sometimes that means spraying for bugs, right?
13:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this career as well, I'm owning it and I am spraying for bugs at all.
13:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love that analogy.
13:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So too, I think I'm on.
13:42
[SPEAKER_00]: uh, I had kind of a similar thing where I was like an inflation point and, you know, catastrophe.
13:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to say like I wish the circumstances were different, but I'm so grateful that that happened because of where I'm at now.
13:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
13:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
13:56
[SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to a
13:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Collision catastrophe, hardship in this career path.
14:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I'm spraying my judgment on this, but I noticed a lot of friends and a lot of people in our community stay in that discomfort and stay in that cell.
14:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess because I like, no, this is what I have to do.
14:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like blinded by ambition.
14:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, if I just keep pushing, I'll break through.
14:17
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like a blind eye to that and you can like go right past it.
14:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there something that you were able to do to see that or did that make you see it?
14:26
[SPEAKER_02]: the collision made me see it because you don't know and then it hits you and that's the thing.
14:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I also think that the majority of us, I think I can say that, are taught that it has to be tough.
14:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think we're taught that in every realm, the problem with that teaching, the problem with no pain, no gain is we have not been taught that there has to be a cutoff on the
14:57
[SPEAKER_02]: No pain, no gain is about momentary drops of it and working through those, but I think what we do is we think, no, this is the way it is.
15:08
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?
15:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I've got to go through this and it's never supposed to have any levity.
15:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
15:13
[SPEAKER_02]: We're missed out aren't we?
15:15
[SPEAKER_02]: That kind of was a light bulb moment and just thought like that term growing pains.
15:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yet, sometimes it hurts to grow, but it sure's heck shouldn't hurt all the time.
15:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Why can't we have that same understanding and grace for ourselves as creatives?
15:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
15:33
[SPEAKER_00]: What is ringing in my head is there's this whole mentality and approach essentially being all self-employed people.
15:40
[SPEAKER_00]: at varying levels, the pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality, and there's such like hard work get dirty, which it can be, but sometimes that pull yourself up by the bootstraps is like taking a pause and doing the hard work on yourself, and doing what you said you did where it's like really just set up that boundary and protect it and spray for bugs, and it might not be the like, get sweaty get dirty, grind it out, kind of thing, but you're still pulling
16:09
[SPEAKER_00]: might only be a hundred pounds.
16:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to get you further.
16:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to get you to the other side.
16:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It may be a massage.
16:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
16:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
16:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think also reflecting on my own experience in all these conversations we've had and observing friends on this path.
16:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And really also, I feel like, you know, we're in our late 30s at the risk of sounding like old and jaded.
16:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like you can really see 20 some of your old's just starting out, like the shiny hunger that they have.
16:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that some of this stuff that can happen is that we can be so driven and blinded by wanting to succeed, wanting to have
16:50
[SPEAKER_01]: fulfilling creative experiences, wanting, wanting, wanting, and then sacrifice in little parts of ourselves, our belief systems, our integrity, our boundaries, whatever, because we're like, they know better, and that might give me what I want.
17:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Or this situation doesn't feel totally right, but maybe that's what I have to do to get what I want, and then I'll have leverage and power to really be who I am.
17:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And before you know it, all of a sudden, like, all these little pieces
17:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
17:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Truth.
17:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I feel like there's also this like layer of shame in admitting the wanting being able to see like you saying like I had to own my truth can mean so many different things for each of us.
17:33
[SPEAKER_01]: But I feel like sometimes that can mean like also how you are behaved in a certain way or we're implicit in certain things that then when you're in your healthiest place or in your rock
17:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh wait, how can I look at this really holistically and be like, man, all these different things happened in my life because I was my driving force was trying to get something I wanted.
17:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, and maybe that misguided me.
18:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that is so important and in talking about owning your truth.
18:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes the truth is, you were on a wrong path or you were focused on the wrong things.
18:10
[SPEAKER_02]: that is exactly right and I think at the core, owning truth is who are we authentically?
18:18
[SPEAKER_02]: That is real work, isn't it?
18:21
[SPEAKER_02]: But who are we authentically?
18:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes that is beneficial and sometimes it's hurtful and figuring out what that is, period.
18:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And how it fits when we're working
18:37
[SPEAKER_01]: and are receiving so many opinions on how we should present ourselves.
18:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So yes.
18:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, reconciling who we are authentically, and then being like, but how do I present that authentically?
18:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
18:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And am I a brand?
18:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And what is my brand?
18:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And what should I be sharing on social media to align with my authentic self or to promote?
18:57
[SPEAKER_01]: For some people, it's not a conundrum.
18:59
[SPEAKER_01]: For others, it's like a continual mindset.
19:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.
19:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And it used to be a conundrum for me.
19:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you're lying to yourself if you're saying it's never been a conundrum.
19:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Even somebody who intentionally straight out the gate chooses, I am not going to care about social media or I'm going to just post what I want from the start, that in and of itself takes a different type of fortification that you're trying really hard to go against the grain.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Being authenticly yourself.
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe there are some people out there who don't feel at odds with that.
19:35
[SPEAKER_02]: We were talking about what to share on social media.
19:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you a brand?
19:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you are, what can you share and what can't you share and how do you promote?
19:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember caring more.
19:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying I don't care at all, but I remember having to put guardrails around what I put out there into the world about myself and what I didn't.
19:59
[SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of artists, bands, whatever, but artist specifically, especially if you don't have a separate artist page, then your personal page,
20:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you can look at it as a trajectory.
20:13
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like a history book of seeing year by year.
20:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Who a person is and who they are becoming.
20:20
[SPEAKER_02]: I definitely had a becoming.
20:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I've always had deposits of moments of, you know, not
20:27
[SPEAKER_02]: only posting about music, and then because I have that second creative outlet with food, all of that has woven its web creatively for me, so I never personally felt like I had to stick to one lane over time.
20:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I realized that sharing more parts of myself,
20:46
[SPEAKER_02]: holistically it's easier for me.
20:49
[SPEAKER_02]: It may not be easier for everyone, but I'm definitely a believer in if I am more vulnerable and more open, you are going to feel permission to be yourself and then we can be in this boat together, both paddling in the same direction towards the goal of enlightenment or whatever.
21:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely that on so many levels that showing up in integrity gives people permission to show up in their own integrity.
21:22
[SPEAKER_00]: That's been something that's been ringing the back of my head for the better part of a decade at this point and just it's one of those concepts that just continues to refine itself and get clear.
21:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe as a feeling more than a thought like however it just resonates with me more and more.
21:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to relate it back to it gives somebody something to push off of where like if you're going to show me up an integrity it's kind of like pushing against like a towel on the clothes line it just kind of like disappears where if you show up and you're strong at where you are it gives somebody like something else to push off and like that's right ground themselves too yes it's pretty amazing where that can end up
21:56
[SPEAKER_01]: it is amazing yeah more of that please yes and I think like you said it's what feels best for you that we all have to come to terms with and I do think about this a lot because I am like a natural share I want to share everything I'm like that because I'm just wired that way but I also have grown to love that part of me because I receive so much by doing it.
22:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I see so many people's stories, totally.
22:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But as someone building a music career, there's always been that conflict of like, keep it as a tool, only like post about shows and tours and music, right?
22:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm increasingly the last few years of my life of becoming a mother of stuff with my mom's health happening.
22:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, music has become not my whole life anymore.
22:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
22:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's in my mind a good thing.
22:48
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the only thing I want to share.
22:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And I come into a place of being like, okay, that might then not gain me as much.
22:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know recognition in the industry or whatever.
22:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Say it.
23:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Say it.
23:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But it feels more honest to me, and I'm in turn attracted to people who share their story on socials.
23:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not like, oh, somebody's only sharing their tour posters in there.
23:13
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what their comfort level is.
23:15
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, coming to terms with what feels right for you and how you share in your creative work, as well as on these platforms or in social interactions, that's the challenge
23:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, being known is something that I strive for, and it sounds like it's something that you strive for.
23:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Not everybody wants to be known.
23:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be known.
23:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I want other people to be known, to feel seen.
23:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So I know that my work has been to make sure I'm putting myself out there, so that others can feel seen too.
23:50
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a desire of my heart.
23:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, just a quick pause from this conversation.
23:56
[SPEAKER_00]: The other 22 hours is an independent production built entirely on the idea that he's quiet on his conversations matter.
24:02
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24:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you can think of one person who would appreciate this show, please pass it along.
24:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you haven't yet, please follow our show in your listening platform of choice or subscribe to our channel on YouTube.
24:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a small action that we say massive difference for us.
24:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for being here.
24:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's get back to our conversation.
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: When you say my work is to put myself out there so that others can feel seen, is that something that you feel across your different endeavors?
24:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Like across your music, across your activism, across your cooking, is that a commonality between that?
24:36
[SPEAKER_02]: It is.
24:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And that desire of my heart and that work of my life comes from the beginning.
24:43
[SPEAKER_02]: It really does come from knowing what it feels like to not have belonging, right?
24:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Coming as an immigrant to national Tennessee here we are and it's really, really hard to have acceptance and belonging.
24:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I didn't like that feeling.
24:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And so really, really early on, I began to actively try to stop it when I saw it.
25:06
[SPEAKER_02]: because I knew what that felt like and I didn't want anybody else to feel like I felt.
25:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm really grateful for those hardships.
25:16
[SPEAKER_02]: They really did lead me towards this path of then being an advocate for belonging because of what I went through.
25:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
25:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've shared this with Michaela at feel like in our lives independently and together over the last six, seven years, something the horizon has broadened beyond music.
25:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And something that I've seen is defining your truth, defining like your purpose and your mission in life.
25:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you can get clear at what that point is or that blob on the horizon is,
25:53
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be through writing songs, it could be through releasing music, it could be through cooking meals or painting or writing prose.
26:01
[SPEAKER_00]: They all push in the same direction.
26:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And I found it incredibly inspiring to broaden my horizon with that end point in mind.
26:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
26:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Hence why you have this incredible podcast.
26:13
[SPEAKER_02]: We want more people to feel seen and feel known and it really is cyclical.
26:17
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the gift.
26:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's and obviously we talk about this a lot together in our life partnership because I've gotten to observe Erin actively brought in his horizon and I think I'm in a process right now of trying to
26:37
[SPEAKER_01]: But I saw this other thing, and it's not happening exactly how I saw it happening.
26:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.
26:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And trying to like, oh yeah.
26:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Be open, be like wait.
26:48
[SPEAKER_01]: What is my like core purpose?
26:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and anybody who's interested in any mindfulness, spirituality.
26:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So much is about openness to all that is.
26:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And acceptance of life.
26:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, yes.
27:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And I try all those practices, but I'm like, I always go back to, but I thought this and so it's like that releasing of the death grip.
27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that you had on this vision, really I truly do believe though, if you do loosen that grip, like it could all be so much better than you ever imagined, if you can like work through the grief of our attachment to the one idea.
27:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, absolutely, you're making me think of a vision that came to me several years ago now that I still use as a vision mantra, but that death grip that you're talking about I'm seeing in my mind now you're just.
27:45
[SPEAKER_02]: holding on to something, but you're not letting yourself just say you're in the water, you're holding on to something and you're not letting yourself go.
27:52
[SPEAKER_02]: The whole concept is about holding on so tightly to something as opposed to letting yourself swim in the deep.
28:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I used to be so afraid.
28:02
[SPEAKER_02]: of swimming in the deep until I realized that the treasure really does lie in the bottom and in the search and in the seeking and in the exploration.
28:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So the letting it be and leaning into what comes and what you discover and what you find and that release, right?
28:27
[SPEAKER_02]: The term we all use
28:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a praise for a reason that idea of being the water and like gripping something is so apt because if you're holding on to a rope in the water, you can predict what that journey is going to be.
28:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what that rope is going to feel like the whole way.
28:45
[SPEAKER_00]: You know as you go down, it's going to get darker and whatever in the ropes going to be rough on your hands and all that.
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you let go, there are infinite possibilities for what that's going to be.
28:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's terrifying.
28:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is heap of nature for that to be terrifying.
28:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's also I can't help but think as I was saying it, I just went and visited family this weekend for Mother's Day.
29:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Aaron stayed here and I took our almost three year old and I have a very big family and our daughter doesn't see them very often.
29:09
[SPEAKER_01]: We had like a big family brunch.
29:10
[SPEAKER_01]: She's very comfortable with like my parents and my brother, but all the extended family.
29:14
[SPEAKER_01]: She got really shy.
29:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was like literally death gripping my hand the whole time.
29:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's all these other little cousins running around like who are a little older and are like Georgia A complaint with us, a complaint with us.
29:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
29:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I'm looking down from this bigger vantage point More life experience and I'm like, GG, if you just let go of my hand, you're gonna have so much fun.
29:36
[SPEAKER_01]: They all want to like love you and give you.
29:38
[SPEAKER_01]: That's good.
29:39
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and she was just like mommy?
29:41
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
29:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
29:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And eventually she started like venturing out, but I just thought of that it like, oh, wow.
29:52
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like so good.
29:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm looking down being like, yeah, safe.
29:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Go out there.
29:57
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be good.
29:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're like, universe, no.
30:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
30:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that little thing like it's something that has helped me really open up was literally Identify like that little boy me and myself going like no and like the little boy fear and all of that Who and being okay with it be like I see that like I see you little Aaron and they're like right it's cool Was just try it like you know where this is we can come back here Like this is try it and it's to me it's a dictate like once you kind of like going start swimming around You're like cool.
30:30
[SPEAKER_00]: What's behind this rock?
30:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, what's over here?
30:33
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
30:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you are a writer.
30:35
[SPEAKER_02]: This creative phrase as I love it.
30:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you talk a little bit about sharing your activism and what that's been like for you and growing up.
30:48
[SPEAKER_01]: You said you're an immigrant and you moved to Nashville at age three, right from Ghana.
30:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm gonna as an artist and a public person and then progressively sharing your activism and being in Tennessee in the South in a pretty hostile environment.
31:03
[SPEAKER_01]: What that's been like for you in that work and sharing it from your artist platform as well.
31:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I've always
31:11
[SPEAKER_02]: seen and been disturbed by injustice.
31:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I think those were two different things.
31:16
[SPEAKER_02]: I think first step is seeing it.
31:18
[SPEAKER_02]: The second step is being disturbed by it.
31:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Those have always been hand-in-hand for me and I know it's not the case for everyone.
31:26
[SPEAKER_02]: That's just my story, my journey.
31:29
[SPEAKER_02]: But because I see it and I'm disturbed by it, I'm programmed to be a see something say something person.
31:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
31:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I also think it has a lot to do with me recognizing my power as a citizen.
31:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Firstly, just a citizen and a member of a community, but also to educate, it really is about education for me.
31:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think there's just a lot we don't.
32:00
[SPEAKER_02]: know about, don't take time to learn about or to know about.
32:04
[SPEAKER_02]: That's happening.
32:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I am grateful for social media in the ways that it has helped open our eyes more with all of that.
32:13
[SPEAKER_02]: They're definitely
32:17
[SPEAKER_02]: and discerning what is truth and what is not truth, even in that realm.
32:20
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think because, yeah, I've always been somebody who is to see something say something, and if even one person is being unjustly treated, there's a problem for me.
32:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And in realizing that we as citizens really can make positive change, I didn't really know that.
32:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I knew that when I turned 18, I could legally vote here.
32:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Maintain a C.
32:45
[SPEAKER_02]: knew that, but I didn't know what I was voting on.
32:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't even know a thing about a local election.
32:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And as I dove deeper into that realm, I began to then discover how musicians played a huge part in educating people in the 60s and 70s and your Bob Dylan's and your Jimmy Hendrix and your Joan Bias and your Nina Simone.
33:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they were teachers of history.
33:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And that resonated with me.
33:15
[SPEAKER_02]: So once I deposited that in my spirit and said, yep, I'm similar to that.
33:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Then it just was fluid.
33:21
[SPEAKER_02]: It was very natural for me to recognize the responsibility that I had to share.
33:29
[SPEAKER_02]: truth and to be able to in my own way my unique way as a creator share it with what I think is love sometimes tough love but for me I try to lead with love and I try to lead with understanding you can't always understand everything and you definitely can't understand hate you're not supposed to be able to say oh understand why this person hates that person but I think
33:58
[SPEAKER_02]: is how I choose intention around why this is on my music page or what somebody wants to perceive my music page, but it's always been a holistic view for me, which is why I've never shied away from posting about those things, because it's not one thing or another, right?
34:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I can't say, yeah, I'll participate in love rising at British Shona Rina, and I'll show
34:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll sing my songs and I'll leave without really caring about the source of this and educating people on what is happening here and so that's why I choose to share and to educate to bring more truth to it.
34:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that.
34:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate the thoughtfulness that is behind there.
34:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Because again, in my judgment, I see that the stereotypical response from an artist is, oh, I need to appeal to as wide an audience as possible.
34:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
34:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think to me, that's the same analogy as the integrity thing.
35:00
[SPEAKER_00]: you try to appeal to a wide audience.
35:02
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing for your audience to push back against.
35:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's towel blown in the breeze.
35:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
35:07
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and it's like when you really planify, yes, you're going to alienate people, but you're also going to equally attract people.
35:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Who do you want surrounding you?
35:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Who do you want supporting you?
35:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Who do you want to support?
35:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
35:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Really, what we do to a service, it's like who needs to hear that?
35:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Who needs this permission to show up like this?
35:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and like you said, of everything for you going back to being rooted in love and promoting belonging, trying to create belonging for people.
35:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, politics and activism can be so taboo, but I've never really understood that because I feel like when it's rooted in trying to advocate for something to decrease harm
35:53
[SPEAKER_01]: increase inclusivity and belonging and just like human rights.
35:59
[SPEAKER_01]: That to me is like this isn't politics.
36:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Those of us who don't speak about it is because we are in a privileged enough position that it doesn't feel like it impacts us.
36:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what I try to go back to whenever I'm like what people think we shouldn't talk about this stuff.
36:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And then always go back to the saying of the personalist political, the politicalist personal, because it absolutely informs a lot of our lives.
36:23
[SPEAKER_02]: That's good.
36:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I've never heard that phrase before.
36:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was used a lot in like the feminist movement of the 60s of I'll have to go back to my college days.
36:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have this, the personal is political and the political is personal.
36:38
[SPEAKER_02]: That's great.
36:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Not to like shift gears.
36:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So quick today.
36:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a question.
36:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I really don't know something about.
36:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
36:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm listening.
36:46
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things we talk about on this podcast is like the reality of financial wellness.
36:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I was looking at your Instagram and I saw you posted about going to see Beyonce in concert and it was a beautiful post about like hearing your voice.
36:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You didn't know that your vocals were going to be used on the tour, but then you added a little thing saying, I'm going to be watching this concert from the nosebleeds because I got paid less than $200 for the session.
37:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think I even was shocked by that and I was like, huh?
37:18
[SPEAKER_02]: This reminds me of that show on VH1 or whatever, that's like the phrase you think you know, but you have no idea.
37:24
[SPEAKER_02]: This is really that.
37:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So many people, even within our own craft world, we think that somebody's journey is in a different place than it is.
37:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we do it all the time, just naturally, and of course, especially with something or someone like a true celebrity artist,
37:45
[SPEAKER_02]: and collaborating in any way in that space.
37:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you think, oh, I'm doing good.
37:51
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's one of those things too, where what we were talking about the earning versus the passion and passion was far greater for me in that space than what I was earning.
38:02
[SPEAKER_01]: My question also is just even for those of us who work in the industry, there is always such shrouded secrecy around financials and music business.
38:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm slowly realizing there's a reason.
38:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
38:16
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think we've all kept that up because we've personalized it.
38:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think learning something like, oh, a background singer on even a Beyonce record.
38:24
[SPEAKER_01]: You'd think, oh, you got to be getting paid $1,000 for that.
38:27
[SPEAKER_01]: The way that the system is set up, people can seem like they're doing so well, like you said, and financially, it doesn't add up, right?
38:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
38:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Who would turn down, seeing a Beyonce record?
38:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But do you know why the pay was so low?
38:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess my question.
38:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I do.
38:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I must have signed an NDA that prohibits me from talking about it.
38:48
[SPEAKER_02]: But I can tell you next time we see each other.
38:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
38:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
38:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Great story.
38:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
38:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I've heard similar stories in more Nashville-based major label country stuff where friends have been hired under the guys of playing on the demo.
39:08
[SPEAKER_00]: But then all that happens is that the lead vocal gets subdued and all of a sudden the demo becomes a master and they just don't pay to demo fee and they're at croaker and it's, you know, playing at croaker it's terrible it's insane.
39:19
[SPEAKER_02]: This is why talking about like activism advocacy.
39:22
[SPEAKER_02]: This is more advocacy, but talking so much about best practices.
39:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And like a year ago, I didn't even know what that phrase meant, best practices.
39:30
[SPEAKER_02]: But it really means not just leveling the playing field, but equalizing the playing field, but it's also making sure that people are getting compensated for what they're worth.
39:42
[SPEAKER_02]: If a celebrity is successful on this,
39:45
[SPEAKER_02]: and you have helped make that we've got to begin to level that financial playing field, right?
39:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So, hmm, it's a whole other thing.
39:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think the moral of this story is things are just not as we think that they are.
39:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Correct.
39:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think in every industry, I'm sure this is a reality, but this is the only industry that I know, the only industry I've ever worked in.
40:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think having these conversations is the first step to,
40:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
40:13
[SPEAKER_01]: In acting change, and we can accept that things are what they are because, you know, not having leverage or being driven by passion, all this stuff, but I'm particularly excited in this moment because it feels like the disparities are increasing, but there's so much organizing happening.
40:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So many groups popping up, unions popping up, trying to advocate saying,
40:40
[SPEAKER_01]: individually we do not.
40:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I cannot go up against Spotify's royalty rates by myself.
40:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Taylor Swift could, but I cannot.
40:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
40:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that is encouraging.
40:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I just last night there's a new organization called Mom's in music who started by a record executive based out of Atlanta.
40:57
[SPEAKER_01]: last night talking to her was like so inspiring because it was all women who are moms and like in all different aspects of the music industry so catalog acquisition and legal and artist management and everything and even on that side because I'm just solely on the self-employed touring musician side but they were just like we have to get together communally.
41:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And we can make changes in this industry.
41:20
[SPEAKER_01]: We can create new environments.
41:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And just listening to them talk, I was like, we can, yes, we can together.
41:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't just have to accept, well, this is how things are.
41:31
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the pay.
41:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So you either do it or you don't.
41:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Conditions are not conducive to be a mother in this industry.
41:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So give it up.
41:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Like things can change.
41:40
[SPEAKER_02]: They can go far, go together for sure.
41:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I see parallels between what we're talking about being open to different pathways and letting go the rope and swinging.
41:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like we can't do this in different ways.
41:51
[SPEAKER_00]: There are different approaches to this and it harms us to think that this is the only way to go about this, you know, which again also ties into the activism and public speaking and all of that.
42:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Tennessee doesn't have to be the way that it has been.
42:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Hard, legislature does not have to be the way that it has been.
42:06
[SPEAKER_00]: There are options.
42:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of people didn't know those options before.
42:11
[SPEAKER_02]: People that they followed started talking about it.
42:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
42:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
42:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
42:16
[SPEAKER_00]: On all levels, I think that's a beautiful place to kind of put a bow on this wonderful conversation that you had.
42:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and it's felt so easy and so natural.
42:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for.
42:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like that.
42:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to know me better.
42:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like I know you a lot better.
42:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Likewise, thanks for carving out time to sit with us this morning.
42:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope we'll get to meet in person because I also feel like there's just so much more I want to talk about.
42:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, oh yeah.
42:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I know we will.
42:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I know we will.
42:44
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll make sure of it.
42:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of those national things now.
42:47
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll realize that we're in the same room.
42:49
[SPEAKER_00]: More often than you can.
42:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope so.
42:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you again.
42:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Have a great day.
42:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you too.
42:54
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
42:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye.
42:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.
42:56
[SPEAKER_00]: See you.
42:59
[SPEAKER_00]: We know your time is valuable and we're grateful you chose to spend this hour with us.
43:03
[SPEAKER_01]: If this conversation resonated with you, know that it is just one of many.
43:07
[SPEAKER_01]: We have an archive of over 140 conversations.
43:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're looking for a where to go to next, you can find curated playlists by topic on our YouTube channel or simply scroll back in this feed to find our conversations with Rose and Cash.
43:19
[SPEAKER_01]: New York Times bestselling author Maggie Smith, Lucius, J.D.M.
43:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Ferson, and many others.
43:24
[SPEAKER_00]: This show is produced by me, Mary Shaffer-based, with help from the Kayla and all the music he hears written, performed and produced by me as well.
43:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Our show is edited and mixed by Leland Holden at Pod Punch, and we are proud members of the Bluegrass situation podcast network.
43:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for being here, we'll see you next time.