Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Why Can’t I Stop Overthinking Everything? Your Anxiety Isn’t the Enemy | Happiness | E531

Transcript

Why Can’t I Stop Overthinking Everything? Your Anxiety Isn’t the Enemy | Happiness | E531 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

0:11
Speaker 1: Quick hello before we dive in n a big thank
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Speaker 1: in the show notes for this episode. Now let's get
1:23
Speaker 1: into it.
1:30
Speaker 3: You know we wouldn't look both ways before we cross
1:32
Speaker 3: the street if we didn't have some anxiety. The check
1:35
Speaker 3: is just to learn how to use it rather than
1:38
Speaker 3: it just controlling you.
1:50
Speaker 1: My friends, every single one of us has some work
1:52
Speaker 1: to do when it comes to our relationship with our
1:56
Speaker 1: own anxiety. Sometimes feelings of anxiety are actually really healthy
2:02
Speaker 1: and worth listening to. Other times it's related to unfinished
2:07
Speaker 1: business that needs to be dealt with differently, But anxiety
2:24
Speaker 1: can also show up in our relationships. It can lead
2:28
Speaker 1: us to be anxious or avoidant. Sometimes it can inhibit
2:32
Speaker 1: our communication and ability to show up authentically, especially in
2:36
Speaker 1: relationships where there are differences.
2:38
Speaker 3: A lot of people have this idea right now that
2:41
Speaker 3: healthy thing to do is to not associate with people
2:44
Speaker 3: who think a certain way or who voted a certain
2:46
Speaker 3: way or whatever, and it's causing people to box themselves
2:51
Speaker 3: into these little tiny boxes that are actually not so
2:54
Speaker 3: good for them. I want people to recognize the importance
2:56
Speaker 3: of connecting and being authentic, even if there's this agreement
3:00
Speaker 3: that it's okay.
3:02
Speaker 1: So that's where we're going on today's episode. By the
3:04
Speaker 1: end of our time together today, you're going to have
3:06
Speaker 1: some new visibility into your own anxiety, a new set
3:11
Speaker 1: of tools, an even language for understanding what's going on
3:15
Speaker 1: inside of you, how to deal with it, but also
3:18
Speaker 1: some new ideas that will support your ability to be
3:22
Speaker 1: courageous and lovingly authentic even in relationships that are fraught
3:29
Speaker 1: with differences. Our mood music today coming from the k Holes.
3:48
Speaker 1: This song is Frozen Stiff, which can be a manifestation.
3:53
Speaker 2: Of anxiety for some people.
3:55
Speaker 1: Makes us freeze, it makes us hide. Other people anxiety
3:59
Speaker 1: shows differently and getting visibility into what that looks like
4:04
Speaker 1: for you and how to respond to.
4:07
Speaker 2: It differently depending on the type of.
4:10
Speaker 1: Reaction you're having. This requires a high degree of self awareness,
4:14
Speaker 1: emotional intelligence, and new competencies, and that is what today's
4:19
Speaker 1: show is all about. If this is your first time
4:22
Speaker 1: tuning in, I'm so glad you found me. I'm doctor
4:24
Speaker 1: Lisa Marie Bobby. My background, I'm a psychologist. I'm a
4:28
Speaker 1: licensed marriage and family therapist, very proud, board certified coach
4:32
Speaker 1: and also the founder of Growing Self Counseling and Coaching.
4:35
Speaker 1: And I'm here with you every single week to talk
4:38
Speaker 1: about different elements that relate to your growth, your relationships,
4:44
Speaker 1: your well being, and also the success in your outcomes,
4:48
Speaker 1: because it's all a whole. In today's episode, We're going
4:51
Speaker 1: to be hitting every single one of those pieces so
4:54
Speaker 1: much in store, but before we dive in, thanks in
4:57
Speaker 1: advance if you enjoy the show, get something out of it.
5:01
Speaker 1: Thank you for passing it on to someone else in
5:03
Speaker 1: your life who might need to hear the things that
5:06
Speaker 1: you're going to be learning about today. And bonus points
5:09
Speaker 1: if you would consider leaving a review. You're doing that
5:13
Speaker 1: and even subscribing to the show is how you will
5:16
Speaker 1: help me put these ideas in front of even more
5:20
Speaker 1: people so that we can work together to support the
5:22
Speaker 1: collective good. My guest today is doctor Chloe Carmichael. She's
5:35
Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist and the USA Today best selling author
5:39
Speaker 1: of Nervous Energy, How to Harness the Power of Your Anxiety,
5:45
Speaker 1: and more recently a new book called Can I Say That?
5:50
Speaker 1: Why Free Speech Matters and how to use it Fearlessly.
5:54
Speaker 1: Doctor Chloe, We're going to have such a good time today.
5:57
Speaker 4: I'm really excited to be with you.
5:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, so your work is vast. You've done so much
6:05
Speaker 1: good work around anxiety, how to tap into it in
6:09
Speaker 1: productive ways, but also a lot around communication. And one
6:15
Speaker 1: thing I'm curious about. I always love a good origin story.
6:20
Speaker 1: Where did this work start for you. Was there a
6:23
Speaker 1: personal connection to it?
6:25
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, totally.
6:27
Speaker 3: I mean a lot of clinical psychologists or people in
6:31
Speaker 3: the healing professions in general, frankly, usually come from a
6:35
Speaker 3: place of wounding that you're kind of coming to the profession.
6:40
Speaker 3: I started out as a consumer of therapy. I mean
6:44
Speaker 3: I still am so I had a really you know,
6:48
Speaker 3: I won't go into all the details, but in a
6:50
Speaker 3: very tumultuous childhood, getting into therapy was super helpful. And
6:56
Speaker 3: then I started going to yoga classes as a like
7:00
Speaker 3: a seventeen year old that.
7:01
Speaker 4: Was just a total stroke of luck.
7:03
Speaker 3: I saw an ad in the newspaper for a free
7:05
Speaker 3: class and went, and I just think it was such
7:08
Speaker 3: a life changing experience for me. So I became a
7:12
Speaker 3: yoga teacher. And then I was teaching private yoga lessons
7:17
Speaker 3: in New York City, which I didn't plan it this way,
7:21
Speaker 3: but the only people in New York City that can
7:25
Speaker 3: and will hire a private yoga teacher tend to be
7:29
Speaker 3: kind of a busy, stressed out, high achieving professionals, and
7:36
Speaker 3: through my work with them, they wanted customized yoga lessons
7:41
Speaker 3: paired up with meditations that would complement what we were
7:45
Speaker 3: doing with the physical postures. So that really sparked a
7:48
Speaker 3: deeper interest in the body mind connection and how the
7:52
Speaker 3: brain works. And of course I was loving my own
7:55
Speaker 3: therapy experience, and so going to get a PhD in
7:59
Speaker 3: clinical psychology just seemed like it would be amazing. I
8:03
Speaker 3: could deepen the work I was doing myself and then
8:06
Speaker 3: also deep in the work I was doing with clients.
8:10
Speaker 3: So whatever. Six years later, it takes a long time
8:13
Speaker 3: to get a PhD. She became a clinical psychologist and
8:17
Speaker 3: started working with New Yorkers and again just noticed a
8:21
Speaker 3: lot of the most driven amongst them had a lot
8:25
Speaker 3: of anxiety, and they had kind of a love hate
8:27
Speaker 3: relationship with it. They would be like, doctor koy, help me,
8:30
Speaker 3: how do I get rid of my anxiety? But and
8:33
Speaker 3: that's what they would say, get rid of my anxiety, Yes,
8:36
Speaker 3: make it go away. But at the same time they
8:39
Speaker 3: had this attachment to it, like they knew on some
8:42
Speaker 3: level it was giving them an edge, like that saying
8:44
Speaker 3: only the paranoids survive, right, Like, that's kind of true
8:47
Speaker 3: in New York kind of yeah, I haven't actually heard
8:50
Speaker 3: that on Colorado. We don't say that around here, But
8:53
Speaker 3: you're not wrong.
8:55
Speaker 4: Yeah.
8:56
Speaker 3: So anyway, that's how I started explain to them about
9:00
Speaker 3: the healthy function of anxiety, which is to stimulate preparation behaviors.
9:05
Speaker 3: That the goal isn't to like quote, get rid of
9:07
Speaker 3: your anxiety. It's actually part of a healthy psychology is
9:11
Speaker 3: you know, we wouldn't look both ways before we cross
9:14
Speaker 3: the street if we didn't have some anxiety. The trick
9:17
Speaker 3: is just to learn how to use it rather than
9:20
Speaker 3: it just controlling you. So that was the first book,
9:24
Speaker 3: and you know, explaining Part one was the psychology of that,
9:28
Speaker 3: and part two was all the techniques to do that.
9:31
Speaker 3: And then during COVID, I started to notice a lot
9:35
Speaker 3: of people getting really anxious about cancel culture because again,
9:39
Speaker 3: you know driven people who they want to thrive, they
9:42
Speaker 3: want to achieve, they have very active minds, They're thinking
9:46
Speaker 3: about a lot of things, and it's it's a high
9:49
Speaker 3: functioning thing to want to do to communicate, you know,
9:52
Speaker 3: with your community, to you know, talk things over, hash
9:55
Speaker 3: out ideas. But people were getting scared to do that
9:58
Speaker 3: because of cancel culture. And they were also really nervous
10:03
Speaker 3: about hurting other people, about saying something that could be
10:07
Speaker 3: wrong to somebody. And so that's why I wrote the
10:10
Speaker 3: new book, Can I say that why free speech matters
10:13
Speaker 3: and how to use it fearlessly to explain to people
10:16
Speaker 3: that it's actually the most meant. It promotes mental wellness,
10:20
Speaker 3: to be authentic, to be able to communicate truthfully even
10:24
Speaker 3: if we disagree, to understand, we can tolerate disagreement in
10:29
Speaker 3: factual be enriched from a diversity of perspectives. And that's
10:33
Speaker 3: something that it felt really controversial to talk about and
10:38
Speaker 3: even still does for many people at the time. But
10:42
Speaker 3: that's kind of why I also felt that the book
10:44
Speaker 3: needed to be written because I felt like people were
10:47
Speaker 3: nervous about it.
10:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and I really appreciate that. And I can
10:52
Speaker 1: see the intersection is of anxiety. Ambient anxiety can impact
10:58
Speaker 1: so many different parts of our life lives, and to
11:01
Speaker 1: understand how to have a different relationship with that that.
11:04
Speaker 5: Is more productive for you.
11:06
Speaker 1: And I'd love to talk more about your work in
11:08
Speaker 1: that area. But then how we can become anxious around communication?
11:15
Speaker 1: Will we will people be upset with us? Will it
11:18
Speaker 1: damage relationships? Will I experience consequences if I am vulnerable
11:23
Speaker 1: or authentic? Or if I take a risk and talk
11:27
Speaker 1: about my ideas more broadly will there be blowback and
11:32
Speaker 1: that that can be so inhibiting on so many levels
11:35
Speaker 1: for our relationships and for our well being. So maybe
11:39
Speaker 1: in our conversation today we could sort of do the same.
11:43
Speaker 1: You know, the first foundational part of your work is
11:46
Speaker 1: understanding anxiety and how to handle it effectively, how to
11:51
Speaker 1: utilize it effectively, and then we could talk about communication.
11:55
Speaker 3: Does that sound good to you? Yeah, definitely, because you
11:59
Speaker 3: know it's interesting in fact, holding things in does actually
12:04
Speaker 3: create anxiety because we're in you know, suppression and repression.
12:08
Speaker 3: We can't you know, really grapple effectively with what we
12:11
Speaker 3: can to acknowledge and discuss and talk our way through.
12:15
Speaker 3: So you're right now, a lot of overlap, but we
12:18
Speaker 3: can start anywhere that is.
12:20
Speaker 1: You think, yes, well, And it seems like in thinking
12:23
Speaker 1: about it, with the progression of your work, I think
12:26
Speaker 1: really mirrors the progression of the work that we all
12:31
Speaker 1: have to do, is that in order to communicate effectively,
12:34
Speaker 1: really step one is being able to regulate ourselves and
12:40
Speaker 1: have a grip on our own anxiety and emotional reactivity.
12:46
Speaker 1: So let's start there. So it sounds like from your story,
12:51
Speaker 1: the entry point to your work with anxiety, you know,
12:56
Speaker 1: your own work, but then becoming a yoga teacher and
13:00
Speaker 1: seeing even the physical manifestation of anxiety in the body,
13:05
Speaker 1: and the entry point was this physical groundings through yoga
13:10
Speaker 1: and then the calming of the mind through meditation. What
13:14
Speaker 1: did you see an experience with your clients about how
13:18
Speaker 1: you know, rampant anxiety shows up and we'll see impact.
13:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, as you said, there's a big body mind
13:27
Speaker 3: connection there. So you know, when we do get anxious,
13:31
Speaker 3: mother nature gives us a little shot of adrenaline. That's
13:34
Speaker 3: you know why a lot of people who are experiencing anxiety,
13:38
Speaker 3: they'll say, oh, gee, I have sweaty palms and racing
13:41
Speaker 3: thoughts and I can't sleep and I feel restless right,
13:45
Speaker 3: And then a lot of times they'll say, well, and
13:48
Speaker 3: I've tried to just take a deep breath and visualize
13:51
Speaker 3: a beach and you know, it's just not working. And
13:55
Speaker 3: want to I want them to understand that sometimes visualizing
14:00
Speaker 3: a beach and you know, going to your happy place
14:03
Speaker 3: can be great. Like I love that book Create a Visualization,
14:07
Speaker 3: you know by Shaggy GWayne. It's one of the classics.
14:10
Speaker 3: But sometimes the healthiest response the way to actually really
14:15
Speaker 3: assuage the anxiety is to ask, what does this anxiety
14:20
Speaker 3: want me to do? Because that adrenaline, the same thing
14:23
Speaker 3: that's giving you those sweaty palms and racing thoughts and
14:26
Speaker 3: all that, that's an excess of energy. That's why I
14:30
Speaker 3: called the book Nervous Energy, Harness the Power of your Anxiety,
14:34
Speaker 3: because the trick is, you know, suppose you're anxious about
14:37
Speaker 3: a test that you have to take. You know, visualizing
14:40
Speaker 3: a beach isn't really going to help you now, And
14:42
Speaker 3: if you you know, learn how to funnel that energy
14:45
Speaker 3: into saying, you know, I'm going to make fifteen flash
14:48
Speaker 3: cards and I'm going to just you know, review them.
14:51
Speaker 3: I'm going to give those sweaty palms something to do
14:54
Speaker 3: so that I'm not just doing with all this energy.
14:58
Speaker 3: But then after the test, if you're then still feeling like, Okay,
15:03
Speaker 3: I have all this adrenaline coursing through my veins and
15:05
Speaker 3: I'm stuck in high gear. But yet the quote threat
15:10
Speaker 3: is over because it's all kind of a holdover from
15:13
Speaker 3: our caveman days where we would think, you know, there's
15:15
Speaker 3: a threat and we'd spring into action. But now the
15:18
Speaker 3: threat is over, then absolutely you know, go to the beach,
15:23
Speaker 3: or you know, visualize the beach, or you know, cue
15:26
Speaker 3: yourself that it's time to down regulate. But I just
15:31
Speaker 3: think a lot of people get in a knee jark
15:34
Speaker 3: response with anxiety to think that it's something to be
15:37
Speaker 3: gotten rid of or it's always something to downregulate, instead
15:41
Speaker 3: of recognizing sometimes it's actually a gift.
15:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, and get that well, And so may we can
15:49
Speaker 1: unpack that further. And I appreciate what you're saying that
15:51
Speaker 1: there are different dimensions of this experience. And I think so,
15:56
Speaker 1: I too, am a psychologist, and when I work with clients,
16:00
Speaker 1: I think one thing that I try to teach and
16:02
Speaker 1: communicate and this is just the way that I conceptualize
16:05
Speaker 1: it personally, that there is a difference between what I
16:11
Speaker 1: view as being healthy fear, like, yeah, you do have
16:15
Speaker 1: a test coming up in three days, and are you
16:17
Speaker 1: prepared for it. Let's make those flash cards, like you
16:20
Speaker 1: should pay attention to that and respond to it, versus
16:24
Speaker 1: a non functional anxiety being stuck in a rumination loop
16:31
Speaker 1: or feeling threatened by something that objectively isn't a threat
16:36
Speaker 1: that sort of moves into this realm of disorder like
16:40
Speaker 1: a generalized anxiety disorder, people feel unsafe even when they
16:45
Speaker 1: are actually safe, and so starting to develop clarity between
16:49
Speaker 1: those two things. And so with that, oh go ahead.
16:52
Speaker 3: No, yeah, I just I wanted to agree with what
16:55
Speaker 3: you're saying there, and I think as I apologize if
17:00
Speaker 3: I cut you, often you might have even been about
17:02
Speaker 3: to say sort of the same type of thing. But
17:05
Speaker 3: I find often when people are having that ruminative anxiety,
17:09
Speaker 3: they couldn't even really tell you what it's about. Oftentimes
17:15
Speaker 3: it's because there's something that they've pushed underneath the surface,
17:19
Speaker 3: which again ironically does connect to language. You know, when
17:23
Speaker 3: we can get people to start naming and verbalizing or
17:27
Speaker 3: you know, mind mapping as to or even sometimes just
17:31
Speaker 3: free associating, and they can start to understand, you know, well,
17:35
Speaker 3: maybe I'm anxious about everything because I have an underlying
17:38
Speaker 3: belief that I'm not good enough and everybody's going to
17:41
Speaker 3: find out. Or you know, maybe because well I really
17:46
Speaker 3: don't want to confront me anxiety about you know, my relationship,
17:49
Speaker 3: and so therefore I just obsess about everything else. You know,
17:53
Speaker 3: there can be little cover paths that our minds stay.
17:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that when there's anxiety that isn't healthy fear
18:02
Speaker 1: that what you're saying is that when you get under
18:05
Speaker 1: the hood, there's also a reason, there's like an engine
18:09
Speaker 1: of anxiety that is connected to an unresolved trauma or
18:14
Speaker 1: attention in your life, or an old limiting belief, and
18:18
Speaker 1: that when we use our ability to articulate and connect
18:22
Speaker 1: those dots, put those feelings into words, that is the
18:28
Speaker 1: path forward. And so that's sort of connecting the two
18:31
Speaker 1: parts of your work. The communication is the remedy in
18:35
Speaker 1: some ways for the anxiety that's actually a problem exactly.
18:40
Speaker 4: Thank you very well said, whatnot is just I feel Yeah.
18:44
Speaker 3: It reminds me of another one of the things, of
18:47
Speaker 3: course within the psychology literature that they talk about is
18:50
Speaker 3: you know, when a person is feeling anxious or distressed
18:53
Speaker 3: and then they go into their therapy appointment and they
18:56
Speaker 3: just talk it all out, and then the therapist is
19:00
Speaker 3: a container that is helping to just you know, contain that.
19:04
Speaker 3: And it is so interesting that all of that happens verbally,
19:07
Speaker 3: and that when people shut themselves off from expressing themselves
19:11
Speaker 3: verbally and they go into repression and suppression and denial,
19:15
Speaker 3: you know, then they can't really be conscious of whatever
19:19
Speaker 3: the issue really is, and so then they can't even
19:21
Speaker 3: really be effective upon it.
19:23
Speaker 1: So there are so many important things here. First of all,
19:27
Speaker 1: what recommendation would you give to somebody who's maybe trying
19:30
Speaker 1: to figure out the difference between a healthy anxiety or
19:36
Speaker 1: a healthy fear something that says, no, really pay attention
19:41
Speaker 1: to this, do something about this, versus something that might
19:44
Speaker 1: be a manifestation of an anxiety that needs to be
19:51
Speaker 1: dealt with Differently, that they're they're not getting actual danger signals.
19:56
Speaker 5: How do you help people differentiate?
19:58
Speaker 3: I love that. So in the book Nervous Energy, I
20:02
Speaker 3: offer nine tools, and I explain to people it's like
20:05
Speaker 3: a cookbook. You can do them in any order you want,
20:08
Speaker 3: except for the first tool, to your point, which is
20:12
Speaker 3: a mindfulness exercise where you specifically study the anxiety and
20:18
Speaker 3: try you know, that's how you'll be able to choose
20:21
Speaker 3: the best tool. Some of the tools are about, you know,
20:24
Speaker 3: leaning in and seeing how you can be effective upon
20:27
Speaker 3: this anxiety, and some of them are about learning how
20:31
Speaker 3: to pivot away from a topic. Sometimes we're just in
20:33
Speaker 3: a cognitive habit of thinking about a topic for no reason.
20:37
Speaker 3: There may not even be some underlying issues sometimes right, Yeah,
20:40
Speaker 3: we're we're just auto tracking onto something. So to your
20:46
Speaker 3: very good point about how do we determine what kind
20:50
Speaker 3: of anxiety it is? First, I would ask myself, is
20:54
Speaker 3: this a practical concern? Is there something I should I
20:58
Speaker 3: could actually do about this?
21:00
Speaker 4: You know?
21:00
Speaker 3: I mean again, if you're anxious about the test, well,
21:04
Speaker 3: how do you tend to perform on these tests? How
21:07
Speaker 3: prepared do you feel? You know, that kind of stuff.
21:10
Speaker 3: And if you know that you're prepared, you know, then
21:13
Speaker 3: even asking yourself like, well am I attached to the anxiety?
21:17
Speaker 3: Do I feel like I have to feel this way
21:20
Speaker 3: and otherwise I'll become really lazy and complacent? Well, you know,
21:25
Speaker 3: there's so many paths the person could go down, but
21:28
Speaker 3: I think the first step is really just to ask yourself,
21:31
Speaker 3: is there an obvious practical basis as to why I'm nervous?
21:35
Speaker 3: Like even if people have say, been hurt really badly
21:39
Speaker 3: in dating relationships, they're nervous about re entering the dating
21:43
Speaker 3: market again. Well, good, Like, maybe that's because you need
21:47
Speaker 3: to determine your boundaries and you're experiencing a healthy anxiety
21:51
Speaker 3: because you know you're just going out.
21:53
Speaker 4: Into the dating world again.
21:54
Speaker 3: Without really having set up good boundaries for yourself. So
21:59
Speaker 3: I would just ask again and first if there's something
22:01
Speaker 3: that something practical that you can do, or if there's
22:05
Speaker 3: some practical history of problems in this area, and if
22:09
Speaker 3: there's really no issue that you can think of, then
22:13
Speaker 3: I would consider a mind map, you know, and I'm
22:16
Speaker 3: sure you're familiar with those, but well explain it for
22:20
Speaker 3: friends here that are with us. Yeah, so you know,
22:22
Speaker 3: I might if I were to say, like, no, I'm
22:25
Speaker 3: not you know, I haven't had a bad experience in dating.
22:28
Speaker 3: I don't know why I'm so nervous about dating. I
22:30
Speaker 3: might do a mind map where you just put you know,
22:32
Speaker 3: say dating, in the middle of a piece of paper
22:35
Speaker 3: with a circle around it, and then you draw a
22:37
Speaker 3: few spokes out and write, what are the first three
22:40
Speaker 3: things that come to mind for you about dating? And
22:44
Speaker 3: then for each one of those things, you draw a
22:46
Speaker 3: few spokes out from there, and you know, what are
22:48
Speaker 3: the first few things that come to you to mind
22:51
Speaker 3: for you about those things? And once you've done that,
22:54
Speaker 3: until you feel like you've kind of tapped out from
22:56
Speaker 3: your brain all of the data points that come up
23:01
Speaker 3: for you around topics connected to dating. Then you might
23:05
Speaker 3: start to say, Okay, this wasn't really on the surface
23:08
Speaker 3: for me, but I'm starting to realize now that in fact,
23:11
Speaker 3: I'm noticing that I recently turned thirty and it carries
23:15
Speaker 3: a different weight for me now as I'm in the
23:17
Speaker 3: dating market and I'm wondering, you know, where is it going.
23:21
Speaker 3: Dating for me in my twenties was really casual, but
23:24
Speaker 3: now I'm in my thirties and I feel like I
23:25
Speaker 3: need a goal with it, and I don't know what.
23:27
Speaker 3: So I think a mind map can be a good
23:29
Speaker 3: way to explore it. And again, frankly, for some people,
23:34
Speaker 3: they just need to exercise. For some people, they're just
23:37
Speaker 3: not getting enough movement in their day and so they're
23:40
Speaker 3: just sitting with a bunch of cortisol and whatnot trapped
23:44
Speaker 3: within their veil. And I'm like, well, of course you're
23:47
Speaker 3: feeling on edge, and then you're just transferring it on
23:50
Speaker 3: into like whatever is in front.
23:51
Speaker 4: Of you totally, you know.
23:53
Speaker 3: So there's really no one size fits all ants, but
23:56
Speaker 3: there is I think a lot of helpful exploration that
23:59
Speaker 3: can be done.
24:01
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's such good.
24:03
Speaker 1: Advice, is like just to get curious and that there's
24:07
Speaker 1: so much value in understanding what this is really attached to.
24:12
Speaker 1: I love the mind map exercise, like you.
24:15
Speaker 5: Know, associations of associations.
24:17
Speaker 6: And they were like, all right, that's that's the thing
24:19
Speaker 6: is why this is feeling so fraught for me. But
24:22
Speaker 6: I'm so glad that you picked up or mentioned the
24:26
Speaker 6: physical dimension of anxiety because it's so real and like, physiologically,
24:33
Speaker 6: if we are activated, I think our brains will sometimes
24:38
Speaker 6: manufacture a reason that isn't actually.
24:43
Speaker 5: So you know what a really.
24:46
Speaker 1: Powerful experience that I had early in my career as
24:50
Speaker 1: a psychologist. I once had a client who I was
24:54
Speaker 1: working with for months, major anxiety, right, and we talked
25:00
Speaker 1: about all the things and the historical stuff and the
25:03
Speaker 1: current things, all this stuff, and it was just it
25:06
Speaker 1: wouldn't move, and I was like, what is going on?
25:10
Speaker 1: And then this person went on a week long backpacking
25:16
Speaker 1: trip in the woods and we reconnected and they were like,
25:22
Speaker 1: I feel like a new person. I have no anxiety.
25:25
Speaker 1: I've been sleeping at night. I feel so much less
25:27
Speaker 1: irritable as I'm thinking, like, okay.
25:29
Speaker 5: Exercise vitamin D. What's going on.
25:32
Speaker 1: Then I saw them the week after and they were
25:34
Speaker 1: a wreck again.
25:35
Speaker 4: They were like I'm not sleeping.
25:37
Speaker 6: I exploded at my partner, like just anxiety everywhere, ruminating about.
25:40
Speaker 1: Stuff, so mad at work, like all the agitation was
25:43
Speaker 1: back really.
25:43
Speaker 5: Like okay, what happened?
25:46
Speaker 1: Turns out and I didn't even know this as a therapist,
25:49
Speaker 1: Like I didn't even thing to ask. This person had
25:51
Speaker 1: been consuming like eight diet cokes every single day and coffee.
25:57
Speaker 5: I so like the caffeine and aspartain.
26:00
Speaker 1: And it was like this literally like a physiological response
26:04
Speaker 1: to substances that they were consuming. That they did not
26:08
Speaker 1: carry two cases of diet coke with them into the
26:10
Speaker 1: woods for their backpacking trip, but that like before after
26:14
Speaker 1: and that we worked with.
26:16
Speaker 2: That's what it was.
26:16
Speaker 4: And it was totally drivel up.
26:18
Speaker 3: I melt down if I had a diets like anybody would.
26:24
Speaker 5: Right, but that was there, you know.
26:26
Speaker 1: But it's like we have to get so curious about
26:30
Speaker 1: so many different things, including.
26:32
Speaker 5: Like what how much coffee were drinking? Because that will like.
26:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, so but that's step one always yeah.
26:42
Speaker 4: Yeah.
26:42
Speaker 3: And I've said to clients before, you know, maybe you
26:45
Speaker 3: need to you know, if they're financially as you know,
26:48
Speaker 3: I guess we all are to a certain degree on
26:50
Speaker 3: a budget. I've told them, hey, you know, maybe you
26:53
Speaker 3: might do better to skip sessions with me for a
26:56
Speaker 3: week or two and just see a personal trainer instead,
27:00
Speaker 3: or see a nutritionist instead. You know, maybe that would
27:04
Speaker 3: do you more good, you know, like kind of if
27:07
Speaker 3: I feel like a person is in a rut, you know,
27:10
Speaker 3: then I start asking myself those things.
27:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's awesome.
27:15
Speaker 1: And so so if the nervous energy or unpacking there
27:18
Speaker 1: is a certainly you know, psychological emotional dimension, like what
27:24
Speaker 1: is the anxiety related to, we go deeper, use the.
27:27
Speaker 3: Power of language to get into that.
27:29
Speaker 1: There can also be a just physical dimension that when
27:32
Speaker 1: we go into that, that in itself can be very
27:35
Speaker 1: calming and exactly what we need.
27:37
Speaker 5: But then there's.
27:38
Speaker 1: Also the part about it being a fear to listen to,
27:42
Speaker 1: and that's when we get curious around, Okay, what do
27:45
Speaker 1: I need to do with this? This is telling me
27:48
Speaker 1: something valuable that I need to unpack further and take
27:52
Speaker 1: action on that.
27:53
Speaker 5: That's how I'm.
27:54
Speaker 1: Going to feel better is when I obey what this
27:56
Speaker 1: is telling me in some ways.
27:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, which is you know ironic. I sometimes tell
28:03
Speaker 3: clients if anxiety doesn't feel like it's listening to us.
28:07
Speaker 3: When it's whispering, it may start shouting, you know, it
28:11
Speaker 3: may kind of find us to get our attention. In fact,
28:15
Speaker 3: I often would find that with people with panic disorder
28:18
Speaker 3: a lot of times, and I share this in the
28:21
Speaker 3: book Nervous Energy. I share three kind of prototypes of
28:26
Speaker 3: people like the like what I found in my experience
28:29
Speaker 3: to be my prototypical generalized anxiety client and my prototypical, say,
28:34
Speaker 3: panic disorder client. And in my experience, the panic disorder
28:39
Speaker 3: clients obviously not always, but typically they would come in
28:43
Speaker 3: and they would be like, I don't understand why. I
28:46
Speaker 3: just every once in a while I completely freak out
28:48
Speaker 3: and meld down. But I don't have any stress, there's
28:51
Speaker 3: nothing going on in my life. And they would always
28:54
Speaker 3: be the people that would say that they had no
28:59
Speaker 3: reason at all to be anxious, right, and so I
29:02
Speaker 3: think that they were. We would usually find that there
29:04
Speaker 3: was something under the surface that they were pushing down
29:07
Speaker 3: and that's why it was coming out in these bursts
29:10
Speaker 3: of panic, because it was the only way that the
29:13
Speaker 3: anxiety could really get their attention.
29:16
Speaker 5: Yeah, fascinating.
29:19
Speaker 1: Thank you for explaining that, And you know, just for
29:22
Speaker 1: our friends who're listening, to give visibility into different ways
29:26
Speaker 1: that this nervous energy can show up in life and
29:30
Speaker 1: some direction on what to do with it. So we
29:32
Speaker 1: need to take a super quick break. But on the
29:34
Speaker 1: other side of this, I would love to hear your
29:37
Speaker 1: thoughts about the relationship between nervous energy, anxiety, fear, or
29:42
Speaker 1: whatever you are to call it, and how that shows
29:44
Speaker 1: up in our ability to communicate authentically in our relationships
29:49
Speaker 1: or elsewhere.
29:49
Speaker 4: Is that okay?
29:50
Speaker 7: Absolutely?
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32:25
Speaker 2: Well, thank you.
32:32
Speaker 1: So We're back with doctor Chloe Carmichael. We've been talking
32:35
Speaker 1: about nervous energy and how to understand it, what to
32:41
Speaker 1: do with it. About Chloe, I'm hoping we can transition
32:45
Speaker 1: into talking about how our anxiety, fear, nervous energy can
32:51
Speaker 1: show up in the realm of communication.
32:56
Speaker 7: Yeah.
32:56
Speaker 3: So that is the new book that I have. I
33:00
Speaker 3: say that why free speech matters and how to use
33:03
Speaker 3: it fearlessly. And the issue there is about basically cancel
33:08
Speaker 3: culture anxiety that people. I think every topic right now
33:12
Speaker 3: just feels so loaded for people. You know, family members
33:16
Speaker 3: are going no contact with one another. You know, people
33:20
Speaker 3: are defriending means other online or you know, getting invited
33:23
Speaker 3: to the barbecue, you know, because of differences about the
33:28
Speaker 3: way that they view social issues. And the thing is
33:32
Speaker 3: is that for me, as somebody who works with you know,
33:35
Speaker 3: what's called high functioning people, which I'm sure you know
33:38
Speaker 3: it just you know, but for your friends listening, it's
33:42
Speaker 3: really just people that are able to set an alarm
33:45
Speaker 3: clock and be somewhere on time, and you know, not
33:48
Speaker 3: all they take care not me.
33:49
Speaker 1: Aka well really you know whatever.
33:53
Speaker 3: You know, people can you know, hold a job or
33:57
Speaker 3: you know, keep an apartment. In the world of psychology
34:00
Speaker 3: that this is actually considered high functioning, and so high
34:04
Speaker 3: functioning people almost by definition, their interest goes beyond just themselves.
34:10
Speaker 3: They're interested in the community and the people around them.
34:14
Speaker 4: So therefore what.
34:15
Speaker 3: Goes with that is that they tend to have thoughts
34:18
Speaker 3: or opinions about social issues, you know, whether it be
34:21
Speaker 3: education or crime, or you know, any kind of community issue.
34:26
Speaker 3: They notice it and they have thoughts about it because
34:30
Speaker 3: they're cognitively active, emotionally connected people. And yet that has
34:36
Speaker 3: in our current climate, become very anxiety provoking because it
34:42
Speaker 3: can also mean that they feel like they're going to
34:44
Speaker 3: step into a cancel culture landmine. And so since again
34:49
Speaker 3: as we were just talking about, the healthy function of
34:52
Speaker 3: anxiety is to stimulate preparation behavior. A lot of the
34:55
Speaker 3: ways we do that is actually through talking. So when
34:58
Speaker 3: we name our emotions, for example, our migdala starts to
35:02
Speaker 3: calm down. When we talk to another person authentically, we
35:07
Speaker 3: experience what's called neural coupling with them, where our brains
35:11
Speaker 3: literally begin to you know the old saying, get on
35:13
Speaker 3: the same wavelength, like it literally happens. And as humans
35:19
Speaker 3: were hardwired for connection, and when we don't get that
35:23
Speaker 3: because we're afraid to be authentic with people, we get
35:27
Speaker 3: in this epidemic of loneliness that we're in, and our
35:31
Speaker 3: cortisol levels are higher and we can't we go into
35:36
Speaker 3: suppression and denial. So that's why I wanted to write
35:39
Speaker 3: this new book about just the importance of learning to
35:43
Speaker 3: communicate authentically and letting other people around you communicate authentically
35:49
Speaker 3: even if we disagree, because that just seems like it's
35:52
Speaker 3: become a real challenge for people these days, and that's
35:56
Speaker 3: why I just wanted them to know the mentally healthy
36:00
Speaker 3: thing to do is actually to have a diversity of
36:04
Speaker 3: viewpoints and friends and people in your life.
36:07
Speaker 4: Because I feel like a lot.
36:08
Speaker 3: Of people have this idea right now that the healthy
36:12
Speaker 3: thing to do is to not associate with people who
36:15
Speaker 3: think a certain way or who voted a certain way
36:17
Speaker 3: or whatever, and I just think it's causing people to
36:21
Speaker 3: box themselves into these little, tiny boxes that are actually
36:25
Speaker 3: not so good for them. I want people to recognize
36:27
Speaker 3: the importance of connecting and being authentic even if there's disagreement,
36:32
Speaker 3: that it's.
36:32
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, it's so important. And I hear what you're
36:39
Speaker 1: saying that in a increasingly polarized culture, almost any perspective
36:47
Speaker 1: is going to upset someone. Is what it feels like
36:51
Speaker 1: and what that does to us in terms of self
36:55
Speaker 1: censorship and feeling inhibited in communication, and it pairs our
37:00
Speaker 1: ability to experience healthy connections with other people when we
37:06
Speaker 1: are thinking about all of the what ifs.
37:09
Speaker 5: This is also, I think a good moment.
37:11
Speaker 1: I'm going to do a quick plug for my personal hero,
37:15
Speaker 1: doctor Bill Doherty and the work that he's doing with
37:18
Speaker 1: a Braver Angel's movement. I had the great pleasure of
37:22
Speaker 1: recording an episode of love, Happiness and Success with him
37:25
Speaker 1: a few months back. Can look forward in my feed
37:28
Speaker 1: where he's talking about this on a societal level and
37:32
Speaker 1: the work of the nonprofit Braver Angels in bringing together
37:36
Speaker 1: groups of people for the purpose of understanding in a
37:40
Speaker 1: way that is sometimes difficult to do when we're being reactive,
37:44
Speaker 1: shutting people down or vilifying other people, and how that's
37:48
Speaker 1: really the pathway to starting to heal our fractured culture
37:52
Speaker 1: is through that dialogue and seeking to understand. And so
37:57
Speaker 1: what you're talking about right now is the impact that
38:00
Speaker 1: that can have on us as individuals when we are
38:04
Speaker 1: living in that fear and feeling inhibited. So what are
38:08
Speaker 1: your thoughts or recommendations around how to repair that? Like,
38:13
Speaker 1: how is somebody listening notice within themselves that that anxiety
38:19
Speaker 1: is active and that it is actually getting in the
38:21
Speaker 1: way of their ability to feel okay and connect.
38:24
Speaker 4: Well, I love that.
38:25
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to look up that Braver Angel
38:28
Speaker 1: Braver Angels. Yes, they are operating at the community level,
38:33
Speaker 1: at the national level, like actually bringing together members of
38:37
Speaker 1: Congress on both sides of the aisle to talk about
38:41
Speaker 1: who they are, how they feel, their values, their positions,
38:45
Speaker 1: and not just what they are, but why they are
38:48
Speaker 1: to impact that understanding and start building bridges back to
38:52
Speaker 1: the center that comes from empathy.
38:56
Speaker 3: Wow, that's amazing. I want to send him a copy
38:58
Speaker 3: of my book. That's amazing.
39:01
Speaker 5: She might appreciate it.
39:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love to do that, Doctor Bill Dougherty.
39:05
Speaker 3: Yeah makes but so, yeah, you had asked how how
39:09
Speaker 3: can people do that?
39:10
Speaker 4: How can they?
39:11
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, like how the visibility into Like how do
39:14
Speaker 1: you even know if that's if that's getting in the
39:16
Speaker 1: way of your relationship? Like what what is the first
39:18
Speaker 1: signal that you need to do some work in this area?
39:22
Speaker 3: That's a good question. So there is a section in
39:25
Speaker 3: my book that outlines the difference between self censorship versus
39:31
Speaker 3: healthy self restraint that both good or not. You know
39:35
Speaker 3: that we just need to blurt out everything all the time, body,
39:39
Speaker 3: but that censorship is where I'm saying that we get
39:44
Speaker 3: into the not so healthy territory, whether when we're doing
39:49
Speaker 3: self censorship or we make other people around us feel
39:52
Speaker 3: like they have to engage in self censorship. And the
39:55
Speaker 3: difference between self censorship versus healthy self restraint is self
40:00
Speaker 3: censorship is where you don't feel safe to share about
40:06
Speaker 3: your actual values and beliefs. So healthy self restraint might
40:11
Speaker 3: be you know, your mother in law says, how do
40:14
Speaker 3: you like the soup, and you say it's delicious or whatever,
40:17
Speaker 3: when maybe it's not your favorite, or you know, just
40:21
Speaker 3: things where there are certain things it's just fine to
40:24
Speaker 3: like let it go. But when you're standing around with
40:28
Speaker 3: the saccer moms and they're all, you know, maybe not
40:31
Speaker 3: all of them, but even just a few of them
40:33
Speaker 3: are making jokes about a certain political candidate and expecting
40:38
Speaker 3: everybody to laugh on cute because expecting, well everybody agrees
40:42
Speaker 3: that that political candidate is trash or everybody feels the
40:47
Speaker 3: way that we do about that Supreme Court ruling or whatever,
40:51
Speaker 3: and then you find yourself laughing along, smiling and nodding
40:56
Speaker 3: because you don't want people to know how you really
40:59
Speaker 3: feel all about that issue. That's when you know that
41:03
Speaker 3: you're in the self censorship category, where you're hiding something
41:08
Speaker 3: that's important about your values and your beliefs, not just
41:13
Speaker 3: simply whether you like the soup right right.
41:17
Speaker 1: Well, that is so interesting and I think important to
41:20
Speaker 1: recognize because it's also in those small moments that we
41:25
Speaker 1: do have the opportunity to let someone into a perspective
41:31
Speaker 1: that they might not have considered before. And I think
41:36
Speaker 1: one of the issues that we are collectively facing is
41:43
Speaker 1: that we are all existing in our own echo chambers,
41:48
Speaker 1: is that we are only being exposed to news and
41:52
Speaker 1: ideas and even events that already kind of match what
41:57
Speaker 1: we believe because of the tailor digital experience we're all having.
42:02
Speaker 1: And one of my big takeaways from the conversation with
42:06
Speaker 1: doctor Doherty, he's like, you know, walk a mile in
42:09
Speaker 1: the other person's news, because that is informing what people believe, right,
42:16
Speaker 1: And so what you're saying is in these small moments
42:19
Speaker 1: of connections standing around with the soccer moms, that there's
42:23
Speaker 1: a in road to Not that we're seeking to influence
42:28
Speaker 1: or change anyone, We do not need to do that,
42:31
Speaker 1: but that maybe they have literally not considered another perspective
42:35
Speaker 1: before because i'mone exposed to it.
42:37
Speaker 3: Right, and there's so much there like that. I mean,
42:42
Speaker 3: and I wrote this book myself, meant somebody that did
42:47
Speaker 3: quite a lot of self censorship because I was really
42:49
Speaker 3: afraid of you know, stepping on shows, or afraid of
42:54
Speaker 3: conflict or whatever.
42:55
Speaker 4: But you're right.
42:57
Speaker 3: One of the things I came to realize through my
42:59
Speaker 3: own journey as well as through writing the book and
43:01
Speaker 3: working with clients is that if we don't give that
43:06
Speaker 3: person even the opportunity to even know that we see
43:09
Speaker 3: things differently, it's actually kind of passive aggressive of us.
43:15
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I found myself even sometimes like
43:19
Speaker 3: resenting somebody for quote, you know, not being able to
43:25
Speaker 3: hear my opinion when I the truth is, I never
43:28
Speaker 3: gave them the chance.
43:29
Speaker 7: I never shared it.
43:31
Speaker 3: Right, Oh well she couldn't, you know, she would just cancel,
43:35
Speaker 3: couldn't handle it. Yeah, And you know, if we don't
43:39
Speaker 3: even give people the chance to even know or to
43:41
Speaker 3: be exposed to different opinions. Well, you know, we're actually
43:46
Speaker 3: not helping them, you know, or you know, even you know,
43:49
Speaker 3: helping giving them the chance to have an authentic relationship
43:53
Speaker 3: with us.
43:53
Speaker 4: You know.
43:54
Speaker 3: I know it's hard, though, I know it can be
43:56
Speaker 3: really hard. So you know, sometimes one of the things
44:00
Speaker 3: I suggest that people try is like a little bit
44:02
Speaker 3: of a half step, is you know, you don't have
44:05
Speaker 3: to come out and say, oh, well, I see the issue.
44:08
Speaker 4: Differently, You're wrong. Don't do that.
44:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's even okay to just you know,
44:14
Speaker 3: shrug your shoulders and say, you know, I don't know that.
44:16
Speaker 3: I guess there's there's multiple, multiple perspectives on that one.
44:20
Speaker 3: I guess, you know, not even acknowledging your own perspective necessarily,
44:24
Speaker 3: but even just simply stepping out of the role of
44:28
Speaker 3: I better laugh and pretend to agree, like even just
44:32
Speaker 3: coming out of that much, which I see a lot
44:36
Speaker 3: of as well at universities. I've talked to a lot
44:39
Speaker 3: of people with issues of this's going on at universities
44:42
Speaker 3: where they feel like they have to kind of pantomime
44:45
Speaker 3: the professor's opinion or whatever, and it's really cognitively stifling. Too,
44:51
Speaker 3: because you know, one of the things that language does
44:55
Speaker 3: is that helps us to process our own ideas. We've
44:58
Speaker 3: all had the experience of even just saying something aloud,
45:01
Speaker 3: and as we say it aloud, we say, well, gee,
45:03
Speaker 3: maybe I don't even actually really agree with that actually,
45:05
Speaker 3: as I hear myself say that or whatever. There's something
45:08
Speaker 3: about language that does help us to think things through.
45:11
Speaker 3: And when we don't let ourselves do that, we can
45:15
Speaker 3: actually have like an impoverished sense of thought.
45:19
Speaker 4: Almost.
45:20
Speaker 3: So, Yeah, as far as you know, you mentioned too
45:23
Speaker 3: at the body mind connection, I mean the amygd a
45:27
Speaker 3: lot itself, you know, in the brain even just begins
45:30
Speaker 3: to calm down and to settle down when we name
45:33
Speaker 3: our emotions. And so when we stifle all of that
45:37
Speaker 3: and we pretend to have thoughts and feelings and opinions
45:41
Speaker 3: that we don't have, I just think that's it can
45:44
Speaker 3: be really stressful because we're also then sending ourselves the
45:47
Speaker 3: signal that our beliefs are would be terrifying if they
45:53
Speaker 3: were exposed. And that's a really anxiety provoking way to
45:56
Speaker 3: live your life.
45:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, inhibiting.
46:01
Speaker 1: But also when we feel threatened and unsafe, I think
46:07
Speaker 1: that that can also restrict our own ability to process.
46:13
Speaker 1: And to your point, if we're not able to talk
46:16
Speaker 1: through things or take on board somebody else's ideas, even
46:20
Speaker 1: we can't do that when we're feeling threatened, it is
46:23
Speaker 1: very inhibiting. We kind of crank down, we become more rigid.
46:27
Speaker 1: And so what you're saying is that by finding ways
46:33
Speaker 1: of engaging in an open dialogue, it gives us opportunities
46:39
Speaker 1: to even shift our own thinking through the power of connection,
46:43
Speaker 1: to build bridges to the center, to help somebody else,
46:47
Speaker 1: maybe even modify theirs, but that it requires emotional safety
46:51
Speaker 1: in order to be able to do that, and that
46:54
Speaker 1: by managing and working through your own anxiety and taking
46:58
Speaker 1: risks in communication is part of how we can do that.
47:03
Speaker 4: Yeah.
47:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think you're so right that when
47:06
Speaker 3: we do get kind of flared up inside, whether by
47:10
Speaker 3: what somebody else is saying, or yeah, you're just flared
47:13
Speaker 3: up because we're afraid.
47:14
Speaker 4: Of what they would think about what we have to say.
47:17
Speaker 4: When our heart.
47:18
Speaker 3: Rate goes above one hundred beats per minute, we're not
47:21
Speaker 3: even cognitively processing as clearly. So, yeah, I mean, that's
47:26
Speaker 3: one of the exercises I talk about in the book,
47:28
Speaker 3: even it's just simply reflective listening, where person A says
47:32
Speaker 3: what they think, person B just summarizes it back without
47:36
Speaker 3: even judging it, just saying, Okay, did I hear you correctly?
47:39
Speaker 3: Here's what you think about this issue. Then person A
47:42
Speaker 3: confirms or clarifies, and then they switch rolls and person
47:46
Speaker 3: B says their piece and person A just tries to
47:49
Speaker 3: recap it back correctly. And it's amazing how oftentimes people
47:53
Speaker 3: are just talking past each other, not even truly understanding
47:57
Speaker 3: each other because of that agitation. So slowing the conversation
48:01
Speaker 3: down and making the goal of just confirming that we
48:04
Speaker 3: understood each other can be an incredible point. And as
48:08
Speaker 3: you said too, the goal doesn't have to even be
48:11
Speaker 3: to persuade the other person, but even just to understand.
48:15
Speaker 3: You know, also to your point about people walking a
48:18
Speaker 3: mile in their news. Do we see the facts of
48:22
Speaker 3: this situation the same but we interpret them differently, or
48:26
Speaker 3: do we actually disagree on objective fects and that's why
48:30
Speaker 3: we have different opinions.
48:31
Speaker 4: You know.
48:31
Speaker 3: I mean it's actually sometimes even just becoming curious about
48:34
Speaker 3: the nature of the disagreement aye better than trying to
48:38
Speaker 3: like persuade the other person.
48:41
Speaker 1: Oh oh yes, absolutely say we need to take another
48:45
Speaker 1: super quick break, and on the other side of this,
48:49
Speaker 1: I think we have a few more minutes. I would
48:50
Speaker 1: love to get your take on how to manage this
48:54
Speaker 1: nervous energy anxiety, particularly in communication, when things actually do
48:59
Speaker 1: go sideways, when you do take a risk and it
49:01
Speaker 1: doesn't go well, how do you manage that, manage the feelings,
49:05
Speaker 1: and then hopefully move forward in being okay yourself, but
49:09
Speaker 1: also ideally holding on to the health of that relationship.
49:13
Speaker 5: Could do that after the break?
49:14
Speaker 3: Sounds good?
49:29
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52:41
Speaker 1: We were just talking about the power of being able
52:46
Speaker 1: to manage anxiety and be authentic in moments when we
52:51
Speaker 1: might either want to confront or hide, and how a
52:57
Speaker 1: new idea is to appreciate diversity of be courageous in
53:01
Speaker 1: our own conversation and look for opportunities to build bridges
53:04
Speaker 1: to the center.
53:05
Speaker 2: But there are also times when this doesn't.
53:09
Speaker 1: Go well, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts about
53:12
Speaker 1: how we manage that when maybe you do take a
53:15
Speaker 1: risk or share something about yourself and people do judge
53:19
Speaker 1: you for it.
53:19
Speaker 4: Yeah, So a few quick tips. One, there's a whole
53:25
Speaker 4: technique in the book.
53:26
Speaker 3: I won't have time to go all the way through it,
53:28
Speaker 3: but it's an acronym about it's called wight wait, and
53:32
Speaker 3: it's you know, do you want to talk about it
53:35
Speaker 3: is at the appropriate time and place. And then the
53:37
Speaker 3: eye is for inoculate. So to your point about if
53:40
Speaker 3: you share something and it doesn't go very well, sometimes
53:43
Speaker 3: it's helpful to do the inoculation step first. So just
53:48
Speaker 3: dropping a little bit of a hint with somebody that
53:51
Speaker 3: you know, you read an interesting article that shared a
53:54
Speaker 3: different perspective on that issue, and you know, just kind
53:57
Speaker 3: of seeing where they go from there. Sharing a little
54:00
Speaker 3: bit can be a nice way to get your feet
54:02
Speaker 3: wet in the conversation and see how the person reacts.
54:06
Speaker 3: If it's important to you that you know you really
54:09
Speaker 3: want to keep this relationship no matter what.
54:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, although I think a lot of people.
54:13
Speaker 3: Are starting to feel like, on the other hand, if
54:15
Speaker 3: this person's going to cancel me because if they know
54:18
Speaker 3: how I really feel about things, then it's kind of
54:21
Speaker 3: a farce of a friendship, right, like I if I
54:25
Speaker 3: actually have to hide what I really think about things.
54:28
Speaker 3: But there are certain times where you know, maybe you
54:30
Speaker 3: just for whatever reason, maybe a colleague at work or whatever,
54:34
Speaker 3: where it's a little more complicated and you want to yeah,
54:36
Speaker 3: baby steps.
54:37
Speaker 5: You can choose when and how to do this.
54:41
Speaker 4: It can also be helpful.
54:42
Speaker 3: Just a few other you know tips is to plan
54:46
Speaker 3: what I call a debrief date afterwards. So you know,
54:50
Speaker 3: suppose that you're planning you know, you're dating somebody and
54:52
Speaker 3: you're going to open up and share about how you
54:54
Speaker 3: feel about some political values based issues where it's important
54:59
Speaker 3: to you to at least be able to be authentic
55:01
Speaker 3: in your dating relationship, but you have a feeling the
55:04
Speaker 3: person might reject you or you know, go sideways there.
55:08
Speaker 3: It can be helpful to plan a deep brief date
55:10
Speaker 3: with a good friend for afterwards, so that way, if
55:13
Speaker 3: the conversation you know, with your potential significant other goes
55:18
Speaker 3: really well, great, you have somebody to unpack that with.
55:21
Speaker 3: If it doesn't go well, you already have a built
55:23
Speaker 3: in support system for yourself that like, oh it didn't
55:27
Speaker 3: go well, you know, he said this, that and the
55:29
Speaker 3: other thing or whatever. Or if you're thinking of speaking up,
55:33
Speaker 3: say in a group setting like a university or meeting
55:37
Speaker 3: type setting, or even the soccer mom setting, it can
55:40
Speaker 3: be helpful to ask somebody in advance to be your
55:43
Speaker 3: ally so that you know you're not speaking up all
55:45
Speaker 3: by yourself. You can tell them I'm going to speak up.
55:48
Speaker 3: You don't have to get totally involved, but like a
55:51
Speaker 3: little I think she has a point, you know, would
55:53
Speaker 3: go a long way for me, and you know, knowing
55:55
Speaker 3: I'm not alone there, so I guess you just have
55:58
Speaker 3: to kind of accept first of all, that the other
56:00
Speaker 3: person has their right to not like what you've said,
56:04
Speaker 3: but the goal should hopefully be able that you can
56:07
Speaker 3: always do what we call narrate your experience to them
56:10
Speaker 3: as well and to say, look, I have a feeling
56:13
Speaker 3: we might disagree on this certain issue and that's okay
56:16
Speaker 3: with me, but I want you to know how I
56:18
Speaker 3: really feel about it, because I've been doing you a
56:22
Speaker 3: disservice by smiling and nodding and acting as a free right.
56:26
Speaker 3: I want to be authentic with you because I want
56:29
Speaker 3: us to be close and real with each other, not
56:32
Speaker 3: even because we have to agree and maybe in advance.
56:35
Speaker 3: And this is one last tip I'll share, is to
56:37
Speaker 3: have two or three good pivot topics so that like,
56:40
Speaker 3: after you've kind of shared and even if things are
56:43
Speaker 3: a little awkward but it just feels better to move on,
56:46
Speaker 3: you have two or three good topics in your backpacket
56:48
Speaker 3: that you can be like, by the way, how are
56:50
Speaker 3: things going with that? You know Sian reci told me
56:54
Speaker 3: about with your dentist or whatever, something that they wanted
56:57
Speaker 3: to talk about that you know that they would like
56:58
Speaker 3: to pivot too, so that you don't have to stay
57:01
Speaker 3: stuck on the topic if it.
57:02
Speaker 1: Doesn't right, Yeah, pivoting back into connection is to sort
57:07
Speaker 1: of smooth smooth things over, re establish the connection. You
57:12
Speaker 1: bring up a good point that if you're hiding who
57:16
Speaker 1: you are in your relationships, that's also depriving the other
57:20
Speaker 1: person even of consent, right, Like, it's sort of this
57:23
Speaker 1: artificial relationship because maybe if you did talk about how
57:26
Speaker 1: you really feel they wouldn't want to be your friend anymore,
57:30
Speaker 1: which would maybe even be good for you, right if
57:33
Speaker 1: you're having a relationship with somebody who doesn't even know you,
57:37
Speaker 1: but also like that they almost deserve to know who
57:41
Speaker 1: you are in the event that they wouldn't want to
57:44
Speaker 1: maintain that relationship because unfortunately, and actually, let me ask
57:47
Speaker 1: you about this before we wrap up, I have I
57:50
Speaker 1: think I saw an article somewhere that more and more
57:53
Speaker 1: people are actually listing their political stance on them like
58:00
Speaker 1: an online dating profile to say Democrats not welcome or
58:05
Speaker 1: Republicans not welcome, like sign on the door or saying nope.
58:09
Speaker 1: And many people have like would say, I wouldn't want
58:14
Speaker 1: to be friends with a person who believed X, Y
58:17
Speaker 1: or Z, And so they are then surrounding themselves with
58:23
Speaker 1: people who who think and feel the same way that
58:25
Speaker 1: they do. If there's one of our friends listening to
58:28
Speaker 1: this conversation who has maybe taken that stance in their
58:31
Speaker 1: own lives, what would you say to them about.
58:36
Speaker 5: You know what that means?
58:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that a lot of times
58:41
Speaker 3: people who are taking that stance tend to have beliefs
58:45
Speaker 3: that maybe aren't even entirely accurate about the people that
58:50
Speaker 3: they're trying to screen out. So I think we probably
58:53
Speaker 3: all know that words like Nazi, you know, gets like
58:56
Speaker 3: thrown around all the time. And I wouldn't want to
58:59
Speaker 3: be friends, you know, with somebody that was, you know,
59:01
Speaker 3: actively you know, in the Nazi party, right, But I
59:05
Speaker 3: think that that label can get applied sometimes to people
59:09
Speaker 3: that you know, might just have a different opinion about it.
59:13
Speaker 1: It's a slur, It is an insult that has a
59:16
Speaker 1: lot of super negative consultation connotations.
59:19
Speaker 5: That is, like it's like calling somebody a name.
59:21
Speaker 3: What's called somebody a murderer, right, Yeah, like that that's literally,
59:25
Speaker 3: you know, these cruel murderers. So I guess I think
59:29
Speaker 3: that a lot of times when people are in that mindset,
59:32
Speaker 3: they might even have some inaccurate perceptions about the people
59:36
Speaker 3: that they're screening out. So, you know, if somebody is
59:39
Speaker 3: listening and they are kind of screening people out in
59:42
Speaker 3: that way, I would just invite you to, you know,
59:45
Speaker 3: really ask yourself, maybe get to know a few of
59:48
Speaker 3: those types of people, just to really confirm for yourself.
59:51
Speaker 3: But it's a free country, and I don't think people
59:54
Speaker 3: have to be friends across the aisle if they don't
59:56
Speaker 3: want to be sure, and frankly, when it comes to dating,
59:59
Speaker 3: if you're dating for marriage, I can see why if
1:00:03
Speaker 3: you view Republican or Democrat as a proxy for certain
1:00:07
Speaker 3: kinds of social values that you know that you want
1:00:10
Speaker 3: to share with your life partner. I can actually understand it,
1:00:13
Speaker 3: maybe in the dating context, But my hope would be
1:00:17
Speaker 3: that in terms of friendships, that we could have a
1:00:20
Speaker 3: diversity of opinions within our friendships and that that can
1:00:24
Speaker 3: be a good thing. I know I have some of
1:00:27
Speaker 3: my greatest friends. I mean that I disagree with. I
1:00:30
Speaker 3: think in the Supreme Court, Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg,
1:00:35
Speaker 3: they were total opposites. They always voted against each other
1:00:39
Speaker 3: on almost everything, but they had lunch every week in
1:00:42
Speaker 3: the vacation together. I mean, if they could do it,
1:00:45
Speaker 3: we could do it.
1:00:46
Speaker 1: Right. That's such a great point, and this.
1:00:51
Speaker 5: Idea that you.
1:00:54
Speaker 1: Know you might be holding stereotypes that are not actually true,
1:01:01
Speaker 1: and to develop connections on the human personal level to
1:01:06
Speaker 1: really understand someone, and that there are so many things to.
1:01:10
Speaker 5: Appreciate about people.
1:01:11
Speaker 1: And then also you know a lot of value in
1:01:14
Speaker 1: at least attempting to see the world through somebody else's eyes,
1:01:18
Speaker 1: even if you personally don't agree with it. But that
1:01:21
Speaker 1: is part of how we mend the polarization in our
1:01:25
Speaker 1: culture and start building back the center. In some ways,
1:01:30
Speaker 1: it's like it's it requires an ability to at least
1:01:37
Speaker 1: have a connection with somebody who is different than you.
1:01:40
Speaker 5: There's a lot of value in that. Yea, yay, Well, thank.
1:01:46
Speaker 1: You so much for spending time with me today and
1:01:49
Speaker 1: talking about your work with nervous energy and the value
1:01:53
Speaker 1: of free speech. And if somebody else wanted to learn
1:01:56
Speaker 1: more about you, stay connected with you and your work.
1:02:00
Speaker 5: There where they go.
1:02:00
Speaker 3: Sure, they can go to doctor Chloe dot com, which
1:02:03
Speaker 3: I know is kind of a mouthful because people are
1:02:05
Speaker 3: always like, well do you.
1:02:06
Speaker 5: Spell doctor or you know?
1:02:10
Speaker 3: So I just put free speech today dot com and
1:02:12
Speaker 3: that will forward to doctor Chloe dot com. But okay,
1:02:16
Speaker 3: that's where people can you get all my books, which
1:02:18
Speaker 3: are also on Amazon, and I'm thankful that they're also
1:02:21
Speaker 3: all available as audiobooks as well. And I also like
1:02:25
Speaker 3: to be active on social media. So if people want
1:02:28
Speaker 3: to even connect with me through social media and challenge
1:02:32
Speaker 3: my ideas, I love it.
1:02:33
Speaker 4: I welcome it.
1:02:34
Speaker 3: So I just want to put the invitation out there.
1:02:37
Speaker 2: Excellent, wonderful.
1:02:39
Speaker 1: Well, I hope you have some takers so that you
1:02:41
Speaker 1: can share an example of how we can stay in
1:02:45
Speaker 1: connection with someone who disagrees.
1:02:47
Speaker 5: I love it absolutely.
1:03:05
Speaker 1: So many important ideas were shared today, and I love
1:03:08
Speaker 1: Doctor Chloe's message about just I think curiosity. To me,
1:03:12
Speaker 1: that is like the big theme of today's show. How
1:03:15
Speaker 1: do we become more curious about our own internal experiences
1:03:21
Speaker 1: and stay with them in a curious way in order
1:03:24
Speaker 1: to understand what is this?
1:03:27
Speaker 2: Really?
1:03:28
Speaker 1: Is this fear that I should listen to? Are there
1:03:32
Speaker 1: actual risks here? And if so, how do I manage
1:03:35
Speaker 1: those competently and allow my fear, my anxiety to help
1:03:40
Speaker 1: me prevent potential problems that I might experience if I
1:03:45
Speaker 1: don't listen to my anxiety.
1:03:46
Speaker 2: Door number one.
1:03:48
Speaker 1: On the other side of that, how do we understand
1:03:51
Speaker 1: if the things that we're worried about or keeping us
1:03:53
Speaker 1: up at night aren't actually due to something specific, something actionable,
1:03:59
Speaker 1: but instead some unfinished business with a past or something
1:04:02
Speaker 1: in ourselves that needs to be attended to and healed
1:04:05
Speaker 1: in a different way. And pat number three are we
1:04:09
Speaker 1: drinking too much coffee?
1:04:10
Speaker 2: Always?
1:04:11
Speaker 1: A possibility we're not getting enough exercise, and understanding how
1:04:15
Speaker 1: that in itself can create differences in the way we feel,
1:04:19
Speaker 1: the way we show up in relationships, and then an
1:04:21
Speaker 1: associated way, how do our anxieties, fears, real or imagined,
1:04:27
Speaker 1: influence the way that we show up with other people
1:04:31
Speaker 1: when we are in moments of potential conflict. Are we
1:04:34
Speaker 1: able to handle this in a common, intentional way that
1:04:37
Speaker 1: helps us become more authentic and broach hard conversations where
1:04:44
Speaker 1: we take the risk of being seen and understood as
1:04:48
Speaker 1: who we really are, what we really believe, even with
1:04:52
Speaker 1: people who might disagree with us, maybe even disapprove of us.
1:04:59
Speaker 2: Those can be really challenging moments.
1:05:01
Speaker 1: But I think, as doctor Chloe and I were talking
1:05:04
Speaker 1: about in today's episode, there's so much benefit from developing
1:05:09
Speaker 1: the ability to manage our own fear and anxiety well
1:05:13
Speaker 1: enough to be brave maybe do that anyway in moments
1:05:18
Speaker 1: at least where it makes sense for the purpose of
1:05:20
Speaker 1: being known, for the purpose of having more authenticity, for
1:05:24
Speaker 1: the purpose of giving somebody else the chance to decide
1:05:29
Speaker 1: if they still want to be in a relationship with us,
1:05:31
Speaker 1: if this is who we really are, right but ideally
1:05:35
Speaker 1: being able to put our cards on the table and
1:05:38
Speaker 1: develop genuine relationships with people who might hold different beliefs,
1:05:44
Speaker 1: but in a way that prioritizes empathy, our ability to
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Speaker 1: see things through another person's eyes, and even if we disagree,
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Speaker 1: find the good in them and the relationship, so that
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Speaker 1: we are able to maintain healthy connections to people that
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Speaker 1: will benefit not just us and our own lives, but
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Speaker 1: contribute to the healing of a fractured culture. This is
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Speaker 1: big stuff, and we went to a lot of different
1:06:15
Speaker 1: places today. If you've been having anxiety or fear and
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Speaker 1: would like a safe place to unpack this and begin
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Speaker 1: to connect with what's really going on and develop some
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Speaker 1: strategies for how to handle this or how to manage
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Speaker 1: it differently, you have an open invitation to schedule a
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Speaker 1: free consultation with one of the therapists in my network
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Speaker 1: here at growing self to talk about what's going on,
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Speaker 1: get their feedback, and see if it feels like a
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Speaker 1: good fit to do this work together. Come to growingself
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Speaker 1: dot com to sign up for that. Doors always open. Additionally,
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Speaker 1: if you feel like one of your relationships has been strained,
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Speaker 1: or maybe you find yourself not being who you want
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Speaker 1: to be in that real life relationship or have obstacles
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Speaker 1: to connection, especially with someone who's really important to you.
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Speaker 2: We can also support that.
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Speaker 1: We specialize in love, not just intimate partnerships, but relationships
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Speaker 1: of all kind, and I have a beautiful network of
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Speaker 1: marriage and family therapists who can help you build bridges
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Speaker 1: back to the center with a sibling or a parent
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Speaker 1: and a partner. Certainly when there are differences that feel
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Speaker 1: like they're standing in the way and it feels very
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Speaker 1: difficult to fight through the fear and anxiety to have
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Speaker 1: a courageous conversation and start rebuilding that bond, we can
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Speaker 1: help you with that too, So growingsoft dot com schedule
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Speaker 1: a free consultation and together we will.
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Speaker 2: Continue working through this.
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Speaker 1: All right, my friend, That is all for today. Thanks
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Speaker 1: for spending this time with me, and I will be
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Speaker 1: back in touch next time and we'll talk a lot
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Speaker 1: more love, happiness and success.
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Speaker 2: See you later.